Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
I don't agree with Richard. He doesn't agree with me. It's a free country :) I don't see how anyone could subscribe to the view that Community building shouldn't be any fun when the community topic involves gaming - and that if it turns out being that way for you, you should merely accept it. I reject that on principle - but hey, let's face it, for a lot of people in here there is a very fine line between Hobby and Mental Illness. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Major NuT [mjr...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 4:00 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) I reiterate the assessment by Richard. Kudos for an articulate layout and for Valve at being proactive. Now the question is...to the person that kept saying, _it's a symptom, it's a symptom_.. w/o stating what the problem in the same sentence, do you agree with Richard? ;) You don't have to answer, but I think it's more than fair since you initiated such a characterization. [FLASH] MjrNuT Arise from Flames and Ash, Behold Immortality www.flamesandash.com Message: 7 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:46:43 + From: Patrick Shelley sidest...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: c80a52490903151246h69092fbdr8dcc2b9c91add...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 bang on target richard. i think you summed up exactly what the actual problem is server admin's on their pedestal. On 15/03/2009, Richard Eid richard@gmail.com wrote: Who said that creating, building and eventually maintaining a community is supposed to be any fun. It is what you make of it, I suppose, but it's not always fun. If all the administration and management isn't your cup of tea, then you're in the wrong business. Attention to detail is a big part of a running a successful community and if any one aspect is ignored, the community eventually starts to deteriorate. Like I keep saying...the community isn't about you, it's about the players. Sometimes you have to sacrifice your own satisfaction to appease and satisfy the community's needs. If you're doing it solely for the purpose of being looked up to or to feel that players consider you above the rest, you're doing it all wrong. This is a huge problem nowadays. Server operators feel they are somehow above the players and should be treated as such. It shows in the attitude of a lot of people on this list, which I'm sure echoes throughout the the rest of the server operator population that doesn't participate here. It also obviously shows in the subsequent actions that server operators take. Yes, you run servers so that people can play Valve's games. But guess what? So do so many other people. And a lot of them are satisfied with what Valve does with the game and the servers. I'm sick and tired of hearing the argument that without people to run thier servers, the games, and subsequently Valve, would die. Do me a favor and refresh your Server Browser. Does anyone see a shortage of servers to play on? That argument needs to stop right now. None of us are special, nor do we deserve anything for running a server. You made the choice to run a server. If you don't like the direction Valve is taking us, make another decision to stop running that server, it's simple. You aren't above the players, but you're free to keep thinking that as your servers sit empty. I've always heard that it's lonely up on that pedestal, anyway. This new ranking system serves to directly address this problem as it will force server operators to live up to a higher standard and give the players what they want. That's what Valve has always been about, at least in my eyes. It's what the Custom tab was all about but was shunned by the people who thought it would hurt their servers. I don't recall any of the players complaining about it, though. When server operators broke that system, Valve removed it because, at that point, it served no purpose. It wasn't helping players like it was originally intended to do. Players began to complain that custom servers were still on the Internet tab, but they never complained that the Custom tab existed. Most server operators didn't even give that system a chance before they decided they were going to work around it, anyway. Even though it's gone, I still see a lot of the tools that were designed to work around it still available and in use on tons of servers. That goes to show that people don't care about their communities, only the well being of their precious server. I'm not saying that every server operator fits this description, but I feel that more do than don't. This is now being dealt with. Bad
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
Maybe you wanna go back and read past the first sentence. I said that it's not *always* going to be fun. Besides, there is no written or un-written guarantee that exists that says it's supposed to be fun *at all*. You're building a community, not playing a game. It seems to me that you're mixing the two concepts. It's like saying being a mayor should be fun because the city offers a summer softball league. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/community Fun isn't even provided for in the definition of the word. Building a community is just something that you have to like to or want to do. It's for the greater good, not your own good. If it helps you sleep better at night knowing that you built something, then that's a benefit, but a community built for one person rather than a community built for the community is flawed from the get go. Should you find some fun it in? Of course, otherwise why else would you be doing it? Who would make the choice to do something that requires so much work and involvement without finding some sort of enjoyment? But once you make the decision to call it a community, it can't always be about you at that point. That goes against the very grain of what a community is. The current problems that exist aren't due to lack of tools, nor are they due to the idea that the lack of them has forced you to turn to illicit tactics which has jaded the players. What's jaded the players is server operators who feel that they are entitled to something. The reason(s) server operators feel entitled to whatever that something may be existed long before they became a server operator. There's not much that any gaming company can do to address those problems. A good start is for them to issue a stern warning that you must either be honest and respectful to your players or you won't be visible to them. It directly addresses the entitlement, yet those with issues reaching beyond that will still see this as a flawed solution. They'll continue to find ways to work around and against the system because they feel they know what's best for people, but have failed to find a solution themselves and will use any reason to blame everyone -but- themselves. Ask around and look to some of the actual communities worth their weight, not ones built on the fact that tons of gamers will just join a group because it involves drugs and alcohol and spams invites with an invite spamming *tool*. There are plenty of them out there that have nothing but respect for their players and offer a safe haven for these so called jaded players that your community sounds like it's filled with. -Richard Eid On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com wrote: I don't agree with Richard. He doesn't agree with me. It's a free country :) I don't see how anyone could subscribe to the view that Community building shouldn't be any fun when the community topic involves gaming - and that if it turns out being that way for you, you should merely accept it. I reject that on principle - but hey, let's face it, for a lot of people in here there is a very fine line between Hobby and Mental Illness. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [ hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Major NuT [ mjr...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 4:00 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) I reiterate the assessment by Richard. Kudos for an articulate layout and for Valve at being proactive. Now the question is...to the person that kept saying, _it's a symptom, it's a symptom_.. w/o stating what the problem in the same sentence, do you agree with Richard? ;) You don't have to answer, but I think it's more than fair since you initiated such a characterization. [FLASH] MjrNuT Arise from Flames and Ash, Behold Immortality www.flamesandash.com Message: 7 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:46:43 + From: Patrick Shelley sidest...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: c80a52490903151246h69092fbdr8dcc2b9c91add...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 bang on target richard. i think you summed up exactly what the actual problem is server admin's on their pedestal. On 15/03/2009, Richard Eid richard@gmail.com wrote: Who said that creating, building and eventually maintaining a community is supposed to be any fun. It is what you make of it, I suppose, but it's not always fun. If all the administration and management isn't your cup of tea, then you're in the wrong business. Attention to detail is a big part of a running a successful community and if any one aspect is ignored, the community eventually starts
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
I think you're harping too much on the fun aspect - of course I find a lot of this fun or I wouldn't be doing it in the first place. As for the invite spamming tool, it's not a tool per-se. It's simply a script I wrote that enumerates the members of an existing public group, then awks out the community id's. After it fishes that out of the html code, it merely tosses them an invite - an invite that they can choose to ignore. The fact that it's simple for anyone with a teeny bit of scripting ability to create such a thing does nothing more than to outline yet another weakness in their community system - for several reasons. First is that the data is there for ALL to see, and that the invite this person to your group link is there for ALL to click... It's a process that is easy to automate - so easy I would argue it's probably exploitable by design. Secondly the fact that people will blindly click Accept to any group you stick in front of them without really caring about its contents. As I said in my original email, this makes the community tools of little value since the community at large is simply joining a group just so they don't have to see the damn invite again. And WOW, Richard - If there's ONE thing I've learned about this whole attack of yours, it's that there's no such thing as bad publicity! Thanks for that :) -Karl From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Richard Eid [richard@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:11 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) Maybe you wanna go back and read past the first sentence. I said that it's not *always* going to be fun. Besides, there is no written or un-written guarantee that exists that says it's supposed to be fun *at all*. You're building a community, not playing a game. It seems to me that you're mixing the two concepts. It's like saying being a mayor should be fun because the city offers a summer softball league. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/community [Snip again, man, I thought *I* was long winded] Ask around and look to some of the actual communities worth their weight, not ones built on the fact that tons of gamers will just join a group because it involves drugs and alcohol and spams invites with an invite spamming *tool*. There are plenty of them out there that have nothing but respect for their players and offer a safe haven for these so called jaded players that your community sounds like it's filled with. -Richard Eid On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com wrote: I don't agree with Richard. He doesn't agree with me. It's a free country :) I don't see how anyone could subscribe to the view that Community building shouldn't be any fun when the community topic involves gaming - and that if it turns out being that way for you, you should merely accept it. I reject that on principle - but hey, let's face it, for a lot of people in here there is a very fine line between Hobby and Mental Illness. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [ hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Major NuT [ mjr...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 4:00 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) I reiterate the assessment by Richard. Kudos for an articulate layout and for Valve at being proactive. Now the question is...to the person that kept saying, _it's a symptom, it's a symptom_.. w/o stating what the problem in the same sentence, do you agree with Richard? ;) You don't have to answer, but I think it's more than fair since you initiated such a characterization. [FLASH] MjrNuT Arise from Flames and Ash, Behold Immortality www.flamesandash.com Message: 7 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:46:43 + From: Patrick Shelley sidest...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: c80a52490903151246h69092fbdr8dcc2b9c91add...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 bang on target richard. i think you summed up exactly what the actual problem is server admin's on their pedestal. On 15/03/2009, Richard Eid richard@gmail.com wrote: Who said that creating, building and eventually maintaining a community is supposed to be any fun. It is what you make of it, I suppose, but it's not always fun. If all the administration and management isn't your cup of tea, then you're in the wrong business. Attention to detail is a big part of a running a successful community and if any one aspect is ignored, the community eventually starts
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
Nobody is arguing the merits of putting hard work into building a community. However, not everyone is going to dedicate a lot of time to it, or has the large friend network or knowhow to promote a new community. Does this mean that they dont 'deserve' to start one? It certainly doesn't justify using underhanded methods, but the point is: If valve provided more tools to help promote communities to players (such as my server browser idea), more communities (and more good ones) would exist, and that's good for the players, too! Arguing about whether community building is some kind of right or whether you should 'have to' work for it is stupid. The argument in this case is that valve should help communities a bit more, because it would make them easier to start, which could help everyone. This ties into fake players: If players are more encouraged through steam to 'belong', they're more likely to hang out with/affiliate with a community rather than just join random pubs all day, and suddenly fake player spam is less worthwhile, and players have a better experience. I don't really disagree with anything Richard has said, it's just not really the point (i think) karl is trying to put forth. The current problems that exist aren't due to lack of tools, nor are they due to the idea that the lack of them has forced you to turn to illicit tactics which has jaded the players. What's jaded the players is server operators who feel that they are entitled to something. Why does the point of this have to be arguing about whose fault it is? Valve shouldn't improve the user experience because server operators screwed it up, not them That's great for being all on your principles, but shitty for players. - Neph ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
100% correct. I agree that fake playercounts are bad, I agree that illicit tactics in general are bad, all that stuff is bad, bad, bad - but I see why they happen. I don't have a sense of entitlement by simply being a server admin. I just see the problems and offer (what I think are) valid reasons for why they happen. JMDO in full effect. The fact that these servers exist means there's a void that Valve is failing to fill (at least to me), and while I don't personally have all the answers, I am simply pointing out the shortcomings that lead server admins down that path. Yes, I agree that delisting these servers is a good idea - I simply think they need to take another step back and investigate why they happen in the first place. Valve may investigate it, Valve may not - I am simply doing my part by giving my feedback. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Nephyrin Zey [nephy...@doublezen.net] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:59 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) I don't really disagree with anything Richard has said, it's just not really the point (i think) karl is trying to put forth. The current problems that exist aren't due to lack of tools, nor are they due to the idea that the lack of them has forced you to turn to illicit tactics which has jaded the players. What's jaded the players is server operators who feel that they are entitled to something. Why does the point of this have to be arguing about whose fault it is? Valve shouldn't improve the user experience because server operators screwed it up, not them That's great for being all on your principles, but shitty for players. - Neph ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
Well, despite the dubious Trashed Gamers name, we run our servers cleanly - and use as much of Valve's own infrastructure as we can, even though they have some weaknesses. The stuff is all there, might as well use it. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Jake E [jackac...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 3:20 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) The Fun And Rewards Are the fun and hopefully clean server you get to play on. On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com wrote: 100% correct. I agree that fake playercounts are bad, I agree that illicit tactics in general are bad, all that stuff is bad, bad, bad - but I see why they happen. I don't have a sense of entitlement by simply being a server admin. I just see the problems and offer (what I think are) valid reasons for why they happen. JMDO in full effect. The fact that these servers exist means there's a void that Valve is failing to fill (at least to me), and while I don't personally have all the answers, I am simply pointing out the shortcomings that lead server admins down that path. Yes, I agree that delisting these servers is a good idea - I simply think they need to take another step back and investigate why they happen in the first place. Valve may investigate it, Valve may not - I am simply doing my part by giving my feedback. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [ hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Nephyrin Zey [ nephy...@doublezen.net] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:59 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) I don't really disagree with anything Richard has said, it's just not really the point (i think) karl is trying to put forth. The current problems that exist aren't due to lack of tools, nor are they due to the idea that the lack of them has forced you to turn to illicit tactics which has jaded the players. What's jaded the players is server operators who feel that they are entitled to something. Why does the point of this have to be arguing about whose fault it is? Valve shouldn't improve the user experience because server operators screwed it up, not them That's great for being all on your principles, but shitty for players. - Neph ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
Who said that creating, building and eventually maintaining a community is supposed to be any fun. It is what you make of it, I suppose, but it's not always fun. If all the administration and management isn't your cup of tea, then you're in the wrong business. Attention to detail is a big part of a running a successful community and if any one aspect is ignored, the community eventually starts to deteriorate. Like I keep saying...the community isn't about you, it's about the players. Sometimes you have to sacrifice your own satisfaction to appease and satisfy the community's needs. If you're doing it solely for the purpose of being looked up to or to feel that players consider you above the rest, you're doing it all wrong. This is a huge problem nowadays. Server operators feel they are somehow above the players and should be treated as such. It shows in the attitude of a lot of people on this list, which I'm sure echoes throughout the the rest of the server operator population that doesn't participate here. It also obviously shows in the subsequent actions that server operators take. Yes, you run servers so that people can play Valve's games. But guess what? So do so many other people. And a lot of them are satisfied with what Valve does with the game and the servers. I'm sick and tired of hearing the argument that without people to run thier servers, the games, and subsequently Valve, would die. Do me a favor and refresh your Server Browser. Does anyone see a shortage of servers to play on? That argument needs to stop right now. None of us are special, nor do we deserve anything for running a server. You made the choice to run a server. If you don't like the direction Valve is taking us, make another decision to stop running that server, it's simple. You aren't above the players, but you're free to keep thinking that as your servers sit empty. I've always heard that it's lonely up on that pedestal, anyway. This new ranking system serves to directly address this problem as it will force server operators to live up to a higher standard and give the players what they want. That's what Valve has always been about, at least in my eyes. It's what the Custom tab was all about but was shunned by the people who thought it would hurt their servers. I don't recall any of the players complaining about it, though. When server operators broke that system, Valve removed it because, at that point, it served no purpose. It wasn't helping players like it was originally intended to do. Players began to complain that custom servers were still on the Internet tab, but they never complained that the Custom tab existed. Most server operators didn't even give that system a chance before they decided they were going to work around it, anyway. Even though it's gone, I still see a lot of the tools that were designed to work around it still available and in use on tons of servers. That goes to show that people don't care about their communities, only the well being of their precious server. I'm not saying that every server operator fits this description, but I feel that more do than don't. This is now being dealt with. Bad servers aren't the problem, I agree. Bad servers are a symptom. The problem is bad server operators. And this solution does a lot to give server operators incentive to run better servers...honest servers. Servers that players want to play on, not servers that the operator wants to play on. Yeah, yeah, you pay for the server so you'll run it however you want. Fine, play by yourself. But be honest about what's going on or pay the price(read: be delisted). With the way the ranking system has been described, it seems to me that it is the players who are deciding what the players want, not Valve...and thankfully now, not server operators. Read that blog post back over. What types of tools are you looking for to promote your community? It seems like between Steam and the rest of the Internet, there are more than enough tools to promote your community. If you can't find a way to get that job done, you're not trying hard enough. I think that's a very poor excuse for tricking players into joining your servers anyway. People aren't using these tactics because the right tools aren't available, they're using these tactics because they can and because they either lack morals or think it's the right way to build a community. But mostly I think they're worried about how their server population reflects upon their own personal status. I won't try to put words into Valve's mouth and I obviously don't speak for them, but you said: *Is Valve saying they want server admins to WORK to keep their servers popular in some sadistic way? * Uh...shouldn't that be a given? You said it at the beginning of your response. Work is involved. Just because you set up a server doesn't mean it's supposed to or going to be full all the time. We'd all like for that to be the case, but the reality
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
bang on target richard. i think you summed up exactly what the actual problem is server admin's on their pedestal. On 15/03/2009, Richard Eid richard@gmail.com wrote: Who said that creating, building and eventually maintaining a community is supposed to be any fun. It is what you make of it, I suppose, but it's not always fun. If all the administration and management isn't your cup of tea, then you're in the wrong business. Attention to detail is a big part of a running a successful community and if any one aspect is ignored, the community eventually starts to deteriorate. Like I keep saying...the community isn't about you, it's about the players. Sometimes you have to sacrifice your own satisfaction to appease and satisfy the community's needs. If you're doing it solely for the purpose of being looked up to or to feel that players consider you above the rest, you're doing it all wrong. This is a huge problem nowadays. Server operators feel they are somehow above the players and should be treated as such. It shows in the attitude of a lot of people on this list, which I'm sure echoes throughout the the rest of the server operator population that doesn't participate here. It also obviously shows in the subsequent actions that server operators take. Yes, you run servers so that people can play Valve's games. But guess what? So do so many other people. And a lot of them are satisfied with what Valve does with the game and the servers. I'm sick and tired of hearing the argument that without people to run thier servers, the games, and subsequently Valve, would die. Do me a favor and refresh your Server Browser. Does anyone see a shortage of servers to play on? That argument needs to stop right now. None of us are special, nor do we deserve anything for running a server. You made the choice to run a server. If you don't like the direction Valve is taking us, make another decision to stop running that server, it's simple. You aren't above the players, but you're free to keep thinking that as your servers sit empty. I've always heard that it's lonely up on that pedestal, anyway. This new ranking system serves to directly address this problem as it will force server operators to live up to a higher standard and give the players what they want. That's what Valve has always been about, at least in my eyes. It's what the Custom tab was all about but was shunned by the people who thought it would hurt their servers. I don't recall any of the players complaining about it, though. When server operators broke that system, Valve removed it because, at that point, it served no purpose. It wasn't helping players like it was originally intended to do. Players began to complain that custom servers were still on the Internet tab, but they never complained that the Custom tab existed. Most server operators didn't even give that system a chance before they decided they were going to work around it, anyway. Even though it's gone, I still see a lot of the tools that were designed to work around it still available and in use on tons of servers. That goes to show that people don't care about their communities, only the well being of their precious server. I'm not saying that every server operator fits this description, but I feel that more do than don't. This is now being dealt with. Bad servers aren't the problem, I agree. Bad servers are a symptom. The problem is bad server operators. And this solution does a lot to give server operators incentive to run better servers...honest servers. Servers that players want to play on, not servers that the operator wants to play on. Yeah, yeah, you pay for the server so you'll run it however you want. Fine, play by yourself. But be honest about what's going on or pay the price(read: be delisted). With the way the ranking system has been described, it seems to me that it is the players who are deciding what the players want, not Valve...and thankfully now, not server operators. Read that blog post back over. What types of tools are you looking for to promote your community? It seems like between Steam and the rest of the Internet, there are more than enough tools to promote your community. If you can't find a way to get that job done, you're not trying hard enough. I think that's a very poor excuse for tricking players into joining your servers anyway. People aren't using these tactics because the right tools aren't available, they're using these tactics because they can and because they either lack morals or think it's the right way to build a community. But mostly I think they're worried about how their server population reflects upon their own personal status. I won't try to put words into Valve's mouth and I obviously don't speak for them, but you said: *Is Valve saying they want server admins to WORK to keep their servers popular in some sadistic way? *
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
I reiterate the assessment by Richard. Kudos for an articulate layout and for Valve at being proactive. Now the question is...to the person that kept saying, _it's a symptom, it's a symptom_.. w/o stating what the problem in the same sentence, do you agree with Richard? ;) You don't have to answer, but I think it's more than fair since you initiated such a characterization. [FLASH] MjrNuT Arise from Flames and Ash, Behold Immortality www.flamesandash.com Message: 7 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:46:43 + From: Patrick Shelley sidest...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Message-ID: c80a52490903151246h69092fbdr8dcc2b9c91add...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 bang on target richard. i think you summed up exactly what the actual problem is server admin's on their pedestal. On 15/03/2009, Richard Eid richard@gmail.com wrote: Who said that creating, building and eventually maintaining a community is supposed to be any fun. It is what you make of it, I suppose, but it's not always fun. If all the administration and management isn't your cup of tea, then you're in the wrong business. Attention to detail is a big part of a running a successful community and if any one aspect is ignored, the community eventually starts to deteriorate. Like I keep saying...the community isn't about you, it's about the players. Sometimes you have to sacrifice your own satisfaction to appease and satisfy the community's needs. If you're doing it solely for the purpose of being looked up to or to feel that players consider you above the rest, you're doing it all wrong. This is a huge problem nowadays. Server operators feel they are somehow above the players and should be treated as such. It shows in the attitude of a lot of people on this list, which I'm sure echoes throughout the the rest of the server operator population that doesn't participate here. It also obviously shows in the subsequent actions that server operators take. Yes, you run servers so that people can play Valve's games. But guess what? So do so many other people. And a lot of them are satisfied with what Valve does with the game and the servers. I'm sick and tired of hearing the argument that without people to run thier servers, the games, and subsequently Valve, would die. Do me a favor and refresh your Server Browser. Does anyone see a shortage of servers to play on? That argument needs to stop right now. None of us are special, nor do we deserve anything for running a server. You made the choice to run a server. If you don't like the direction Valve is taking us, make another decision to stop running that server, it's simple. You aren't above the players, but you're free to keep thinking that as your servers sit empty. I've always heard that it's lonely up on that pedestal, anyway. This new ranking system serves to directly address this problem as it will force server operators to live up to a higher standard and give the players what they want. That's what Valve has always been about, at least in my eyes. It's what the Custom tab was all about but was shunned by the people who thought it would hurt their servers. I don't recall any of the players complaining about it, though. When server operators broke that system, Valve removed it because, at that point, it served no purpose. It wasn't helping players like it was originally intended to do. Players began to complain that custom servers were still on the Internet tab, but they never complained that the Custom tab existed. Most server operators didn't even give that system a chance before they decided they were going to work around it, anyway. Even though it's gone, I still see a lot of the tools that were designed to work around it still available and in use on tons of servers. That goes to show that people don't care about their communities, only the well being of their precious server. I'm not saying that every server operator fits this description, but I feel that more do than don't. This is now being dealt with. Bad servers aren't the problem, I agree. Bad servers are a symptom. The problem is bad server operators. And this solution does a lot to give server operators incentive to run better servers...honest servers. Servers that players want to play on, not servers that the operator wants to play on. Yeah, yeah, you pay for the server so you'll run it however you want. Fine, play by yourself. But be honest about what's going on or pay the price(read: be delisted). With the way the ranking system has been described, it seems to me that it is the players who are deciding what the players want, not Valve...and thankfully now, not server operators. Read that blog post back over. What types of tools are you looking for to promote
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
For all that's good and holy, Richard - we're talking about a community to support PC games. There had better be SOME fun to this. If server operators are going to spend their time and cash, they want the most out of it. As I've already said, the current infrastructure does very little to support community-based outfits (or does not work as intended), and I made my arguments as to why. The problem that you apparently missed is that people want their communities to be successful - but the current toolset does little to make that happen when we're up against players that are incredibly jaded. -k -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 1:51 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) Who said that creating, building and eventually maintaining a community is supposed to be any fun. [Snip, for great justice] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
So you are counting the fact that a pure/mixed custom map rotation will help to delist a server now as a good thing? And what exactly could a server modify and still stay vanilla? Admin plugins, oh great... A majority of the players will never see it. Mmmmkay In the long run, this will turn out to be a good thing for everybody, server operators included. More delisted servers means a higher chance that your server will be shown to people when they refresh the Server Browser. I think we could all go for a little more exposure in this regard, right? But just a quick question, because maybe I missed the point of your first message, but what exactly is the problem they're not addressing? If they are only addressing a symptom of the problem, what is the actual problem, specifically? -Richard Eid ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
Richard, Again, I'm not saying those tactics are even morally sound. I'm saying I understand why they would do it, and that it's a SYMPTOM - not the actual problem. My point is that anyone these days can start a server and put it on the internet. But it just being there isn't enough as you've pointed out. Server admins need promotion tools to attract players. Work is involved. Work is work. Is it the destiny of every server admin out there to participate in painstaking work in order to have a successful community? Don't you think that might take the fun out of it? Because let's face it - that's how it is today. Player attraction isn't a new concept :) Remember those Arcade things that used to exist back in the 80's? They all had attract modes. There's a reason for that. To say that all it takes is good features and good administration? That's Ambiguous, Subjective and Nebulous all at the same time. What's dishonest these days? Who decides? I guess it's valve - and if it is, I felt it necessary to point out that this whole bad server thing is a symptom, and not the actual problem. A way to promote is a NECESSITY. We don't have the right tools today. If we did, then you wouldn't see all these underhanded tactics in use out there. If you think that most people want to play the game as it was intended, I would MOSTLY agree - but ask any server admin how much more difficult to keep a 24 player server going over a 32 player server. If a 24 player server loses 12 players, it's effectively dead in the water. If a 32 player server loses 12 players, it can (and likely will) recover. Is Valve saying they want server admins to WORK to keep their servers popular in some sadistic way? Sure sounds like what you're saying. I love gaming on my PC. But it's likely true that neither one of us can make it a full time job. This is a hobby for most. As for dedicated people being required to fill servers - that only highlights the problems out there. Should a dedicated team of people be REQUIRED to be on hand to fill a server? That sure sounds like a JOB to me, and not simply the act of playing a game. We've been playing the fill the server game for 6 months now. It's kind of old - for all involved. Including me. That's why we use events in our overinflated steam group. It's not elegant, but it works. I hate to say it, but we HAVE researched what the Full servers do. They cheat. It's sad, but for the most part, it's true. Again, their step is in the right direction, and luckily I'm on the right side of their equation when it comes to TG. But I still feel Valve is treating a symptom, not the actual problem. -k -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 8:27 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) But the problem here are the server operators, not the players. Nobody forced them to rent/buy/whatever a server that's going to sit idle while they keep paying some GSP every month. That was their own decision. Just because you can doesn't always mean that you should. So when a server sits idle and the operator resorts to dishonest tactics to get people to join, why shouldn't that be addressed? *That* is the problem. Valve can't do anything to discourage people from making bad decisions, though. People will do what people will do. It doesn't take an act of God to fill a server and keep it full. It takes good features that players want and good administration. Yes, there are many servers out there now, but so many of them are running heavily modified versions of the game that might be fun for a quick visit here and there, just not an every day thing. In the long run, though, I think most players want to just play the game as it was intended. When I fire up TF2 and start my daily grind, I just want to play TF2. Not a game that looks like TF2 with all the rules changed. Another important thing to keep in mind if you're thinking about starting up a server/community, you can't just download the server and put the plugins you want on and expect it to fill. Do some research before hand and see what the servers that are always full do. Yes, you probably want to offer something else that other communities might not have to differentiate yourself from the bunch, but the gameplay itself should stay the same. You're also gonna probably want a dedicated group of people that can seed the server on a constant basis. You might also want to offer a website where people can discuss community or server issues or just talk about whatever. You could also tell people on your Friends list that you have a server and to come check it out. Maybe once the community grows big enough, start to offer servers for other games. The list goes on and on, but all of that still falls short of an act of God
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
I'm sorry, I don't see how this has to do with pure/mixed custom map rotation... the servers that were delisted were ones which featured both high connection counts and low length of stay on the server, and to an extreme degree. In other words, servers where a great many people have thought from the server browser that the server looked interesting, but, upon connecting, have found otherwise, and immediately disconnected. What has this got to do with custom maps? Unless you are somehow pretending to be running, say, dustbowl, but upon connection people see you are running a rocket jumping map or similar, then it's fine. Unless you have a blank sv_tags and bland server name but when people connect the server turns out to be practically zero gravity, then you're fine. For that matter, if your sv_tags mentions low gravity or the hostname does(or both) you'd also be fine, unless lots of people joined expecting low grav goodness, found it was vanilla, and disconnected. THIS ISN'T ABOUT DELISTING UNPOPULAR SERVERS. This isn't about delisting _modded_ servers. This is about delisting servers that empirical evidence has found doesn't give the players the experience they thought they were getting. Stop over-analysing this, it's a waste of energy -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds- boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Bengt Rosenberger Sent: 15 March 2009 01:15 To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) So you are counting the fact that a pure/mixed custom map rotation will help to delist a server now as a good thing? And what exactly could a server modify and still stay vanilla? Admin plugins, oh great... A majority of the players will never see it. Mmmmkay In the long run, this will turn out to be a good thing for everybody, server operators included. More delisted servers means a higher chance that your server will be shown to people when they refresh the Server Browser. I think we could all go for a little more exposure in this regard, right? But just a quick question, because maybe I missed the point of your first message, but what exactly is the problem they're not addressing? If they are only addressing a symptom of the problem, what is the actual problem, specifically? -Richard Eid ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
[hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
I've been meaning to post about the whole subject of Server Scoring, but I wanted to read everything you guys posted, let it sink in and all that. I'm glad you've been putting some thought into this - but I hope you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I hope you'll read this and also let it soak in, even if it's just one man's opinion. Now - I own and partially run the Trashedgamers.com community. We're quite new, only around about 6 months. But in the golden days of old, I ran another gaming community called Railbait (www.railbait.com, now defunct). 10 years ago, things were a lot different. Running a gameserver means you were actually spent some money on bandwidth and hardware as opposed to today. If you ran a server and it was fairly decently policed, you were pretty much guaranteed it would be popular. At the height of Railbait's times, we had nearly 200 player slots filled 24x7 and it was nearly effortless to accomplish. We never had to work to fill servers, people would voluntarily pug some people and do it themselves. People were just HAPPY that they had a new place to play! Times are much different now. Bandwidth is cheap, and anyone with mommy or daddy's cable connection can potentially run a server, or they can pay a few bucks a month and rent one. Webhosting costs next to nothing. Symmetric fiber lines are $70/mo for 20/20 in certain areas, etc. So it's time you realized something, Valve - and take this to heart: There's such a huge surplus of servers out there now, it practically takes an act of God to actually make any given one popular. Players now have SO many choices (dare I say, TOO many choices) that they have become extremely jaded. A tight-knit community is so incredibly hard to form today, many server owners simply don't bother with the extra work that comes along with community building. The problem (and solution) you discuss on the Teamfortress blog is an interesting read and is absolutely a step in the right direction. However I think what you're seeing with these Bad servers is a SYMPTOM of the real problem - NOT the problem itself. Now, don't get me wrong - if I were to join a server advertising 30/32 players only to find it was empty or close to it, I would be annoyed personally - and we certainly don't use this particular tactic at TrashedGamers. But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. They WANT people to play there because they have put forth the time and effort to put up these servers, websites and what not in an attempt to run a successful, thriving community. While I might disagree with the method, I don't find any malice in its intent. I'm not trying to justify their actions, I'm simply good at playing Devil's Advocate. Now - you might argue that you made this SteamCommunity.com infrastructure to help build communities, but this is also flawed in a sense. I assume that you built this infrastructure so members who frequent certain servers, have similar interests (like cookies) and what not will have a common meeting place. Personally, we use it as a userbase for filling our servers. Toss up an event, and the server will be full in under 5 minutes, and for us - stay that way sometimes for several days. But this too has a dark side as I'm SURE you're aware. Man, we invite everybody. Since everyone's community ID is out there in the open for anyone to grab, inviting massive amounts of people in a fairly short time is trivial. We do it. That Kifferstupidwhatever group does it. I would argue that ALL the top 10-20 groups have done it or are still actively doing it. But is the SteamCommunity site really serving its intended purpose? I doubt it :) So - before you consider a mass delisting of servers that are using whatever trickery to keep them active, consider the actual root of the problem - NOT just the symptoms. Before doing anything crass, please consider that we server operators and community owners need the proper tools to make both your titles and our communities popular. In order for any solution to work, you must ensure that one thing remains paramount - the symbiotic relationship between Valve and the people who host your servers. I've said my piece, I won't say anything else about it :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
I agree mostly, but fuck if wall of text didn't crit me for 10k damage. Just let me add: A while back i suggested a new server browser wherein users see where their friends play a lot, where groupmates play, etc, instead of just a wall of servers. This helps build communities and draw in players. Let players see what 'ratings' others *in their steam group/friends list* had given a server (not just a massive ratings spam system). It would also give exposure to new/small servers, since a few community members say 'this place is pretty cool' would give it exposure to the rest of the community. At that point it becomes disadvantageous to be in huge spamgroups, and players will want to be in smaller likeminded groups that let them find cool servers. - Neph ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
quote | But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. |/quote yes they are trying to attract people but in a dishonest and VERY lazy way.. it shoes that they are not prepared to put the work in to populate the servers... i know for one that i have sat alone many an hour on a server to get people in. Fake slot = lazy imho Karl Weckstrom wrote: I've been meaning to post about the whole subject of Server Scoring, but I wanted to read everything you guys posted, let it sink in and all that. I'm glad you've been putting some thought into this - but I hope you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I hope you'll read this and also let it soak in, even if it's just one man's opinion. Now - I own and partially run the Trashedgamers.com community. We're quite new, only around about 6 months. But in the golden days of old, I ran another gaming community called Railbait (www.railbait.com, now defunct). 10 years ago, things were a lot different. Running a gameserver means you were actually spent some money on bandwidth and hardware as opposed to today. If you ran a server and it was fairly decently policed, you were pretty much guaranteed it would be popular. At the height of Railbait's times, we had nearly 200 player slots filled 24x7 and it was nearly effortless to accomplish. We never had to work to fill servers, people would voluntarily pug some people and do it themselves. People were just HAPPY that they had a new place to play! Times are much different now. Bandwidth is cheap, and anyone with mommy or daddy's cable connection can potentially run a server, or they can pay a few bucks a month and rent one. Webhosting costs next to nothing. Symmetric fiber lines are $70/mo for 20/20 in certain areas, etc. So it's time you realized something, Valve - and take this to heart: There's such a huge surplus of servers out there now, it practically takes an act of God to actually make any given one popular. Players now have SO many choices (dare I say, TOO many choices) that they have become extremely jaded. A tight-knit community is so incredibly hard to form today, many server owners simply don't bother with the extra work that comes along with community building. The problem (and solution) you discuss on the Teamfortress blog is an interesting read and is absolutely a step in the right direction. However I think what you're seeing with these Bad servers is a SYMPTOM of the real problem - NOT the problem itself. Now, don't get me wrong - if I were to join a server advertising 30/32 players only to find it was empty or close to it, I would be annoyed personally - and we certainly don't use this particular tactic at TrashedGamers. But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. They WANT people to play there because they have put forth the time and effort to put up these servers, websites and what not in an attempt to run a successful, thriving community. While I might disagree with the method, I don't find any malice in its intent. I'm not trying to justify their actions, I'm simply good at playing Devil's Advocate. Now - you might argue that you made this SteamCommunity.com infrastructure to help build communities, but this is also flawed in a sense. I assume that you built this infrastructure so members who frequent certain servers, have similar interests (like cookies) and what not will have a common meeting place. Personally, we use it as a userbase for filling our servers. Toss up an event, and the server will be full in under 5 minutes, and for us - stay that way sometimes for several days. But this too has a dark side as I'm SURE you're aware. Man, we invite everybody. Since everyone's community ID is out there in the open for anyone to grab, inviting massive amounts of people in a fairly short time is trivial. We do it. That Kifferstupidwhatever group does it. I would argue that ALL the top 10-20 groups have done it or are still actively doing it. But is the SteamCommunity site really serving its intended purpose? I doubt it :) So - before you consider a mass delisting of servers that are using whatever trickery to keep them active, consider the actual root of the problem - NOT just the symptoms. Before doing anything crass, please consider that we server operators and community owners need the proper tools to make both your titles and our communities popular. In order for any solution to work, you must ensure that one thing remains paramount - the symbiotic relationship between Valve and the people who host your servers. I've said my piece, I won't say anything else about it :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
I agree with the both of you, and I really like the idea Neph. I think the server browser could use some fundamental changes like that. I'd rather see where my friends have played, or places similar to what I have been playing recently, than just a wall of crap. On Fri, 2009-03-13 at 19:17 -0700, Nephyrin Zey wrote: I agree mostly, but fuck if wall of text didn't crit me for 10k damage. Just let me add: A while back i suggested a new server browser wherein users see where their friends play a lot, where groupmates play, etc, instead of just a wall of servers. This helps build communities and draw in players. Let players see what 'ratings' others *in their steam group/friends list* had given a server (not just a massive ratings spam system). It would also give exposure to new/small servers, since a few community members say 'this place is pretty cool' would give it exposure to the rest of the community. At that point it becomes disadvantageous to be in huge spamgroups, and players will want to be in smaller likeminded groups that let them find cool servers. - Neph ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
um shoes = shows :) steve grout wrote: quote | But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. |/quote yes they are trying to attract people but in a dishonest and VERY lazy way.. it shoes that they are not prepared to put the work in to populate the servers... i know for one that i have sat alone many an hour on a server to get people in. Fake slot = lazy imho Karl Weckstrom wrote: I've been meaning to post about the whole subject of Server Scoring, but I wanted to read everything you guys posted, let it sink in and all that. I'm glad you've been putting some thought into this - but I hope you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I hope you'll read this and also let it soak in, even if it's just one man's opinion. Now - I own and partially run the Trashedgamers.com community. We're quite new, only around about 6 months. But in the golden days of old, I ran another gaming community called Railbait (www.railbait.com, now defunct). 10 years ago, things were a lot different. Running a gameserver means you were actually spent some money on bandwidth and hardware as opposed to today. If you ran a server and it was fairly decently policed, you were pretty much guaranteed it would be popular. At the height of Railbait's times, we had nearly 200 player slots filled 24x7 and it was nearly effortless to accomplish. We never had to work to fill servers, people would voluntarily pug some people and do it themselves. People were just HAPPY that they had a new place to play! Times are much different now. Bandwidth is cheap, and anyone with mommy or daddy's cable connection can potentially run a server, or they can pay a few bucks a month and rent one. Webhosting costs next to nothing. Symmetric fiber lines are $70/mo for 20/20 in certain areas, etc. So it's time you realized something, Valve - and take this to heart: There's such a huge surplus of servers out there now, it practically takes an act of God to actually make any given one popular. Players now have SO many choices (dare I say, TOO many choices) that they have become extremely jaded. A tight-knit community is so incredibly hard to form today, many server owners simply don't bother with the extra work that comes along with community building. The problem (and solution) you discuss on the Teamfortress blog is an interesting read and is absolutely a step in the right direction. However I think what you're seeing with these Bad servers is a SYMPTOM of the real problem - NOT the problem itself. Now, don't get me wrong - if I were to join a server advertising 30/32 players only to find it was empty or close to it, I would be annoyed personally - and we certainly don't use this particular tactic at TrashedGamers. But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. They WANT people to play there because they have put forth the time and effort to put up these servers, websites and what not in an attempt to run a successful, thriving community. While I might disagree with the method, I don't find any malice in its intent. I'm not trying to justify their actions, I'm simply good at playing Devil's Advocate. Now - you might argue that you made this SteamCommunity.com infrastructure to help build communities, but this is also flawed in a sense. I assume that you built this infrastructure so members who frequent certain servers, have similar interests (like cookies) and what not will have a common meeting place. Personally, we use it as a userbase for filling our servers. Toss up an event, and the server will be full in under 5 minutes, and for us - stay that way sometimes for several days. But this too has a dark side as I'm SURE you're aware. Man, we invite everybody. Since everyone's community ID is out there in the open for anyone to grab, inviting massive amounts of people in a fairly short time is trivial. We do it. That Kifferstupidwhatever group does it. I would argue that ALL the top 10-20 groups have done it or are still actively doing it. But is the SteamCommunity site really serving its intended purpose? I doubt it :) So - before you consider a mass delisting of servers that are using whatever trickery to keep them active, consider the actual root of the problem - NOT just the symptoms. Before doing anything crass, please consider that we server operators and community owners need the proper tools to make both your titles and our communities popular. In order for any solution to work, you must ensure that one thing remains paramount - the symbiotic relationship between Valve and the people who host your servers. I've said my piece, I won't say anything else about it :)
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
Yeah, the best of us have all been there. 3v3 Dustbowl in a 32 man server for weeks. Eventually you find enough like-minded people and add enough people to your friends list and spam the hell out of the best feature that has ever been created, Invite To Game, that you hit a critical mass and can stand up on your own. On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 02:25 +, steve grout wrote: quote | But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. |/quote yes they are trying to attract people but in a dishonest and VERY lazy way.. it shoes that they are not prepared to put the work in to populate the servers... i know for one that i have sat alone many an hour on a server to get people in. Fake slot = lazy imho Karl Weckstrom wrote: I've been meaning to post about the whole subject of Server Scoring, but I wanted to read everything you guys posted, let it sink in and all that. I'm glad you've been putting some thought into this - but I hope you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I hope you'll read this and also let it soak in, even if it's just one man's opinion. Now - I own and partially run the Trashedgamers.com community. We're quite new, only around about 6 months. But in the golden days of old, I ran another gaming community called Railbait (www.railbait.com, now defunct). 10 years ago, things were a lot different. Running a gameserver means you were actually spent some money on bandwidth and hardware as opposed to today. If you ran a server and it was fairly decently policed, you were pretty much guaranteed it would be popular. At the height of Railbait's times, we had nearly 200 player slots filled 24x7 and it was nearly effortless to accomplish. We never had to work to fill servers, people would voluntarily pug some people and do it themselves. People were just HAPPY that they had a new place to play! Times are much different now. Bandwidth is cheap, and anyone with mommy or daddy's cable connection can potentially run a server, or they can pay a few bucks a month and rent one. Webhosting costs next to nothing. Symmetric fiber lines are $70/mo for 20/20 in certain areas, etc. So it's time you realized something, Valve - and take this to heart: There's such a huge surplus of servers out there now, it practically takes an act of God to actually make any given one popular. Players now have SO many choices (dare I say, TOO many choices) that they have become extremely jaded. A tight-knit community is so incredibly hard to form today, many server owners simply don't bother with the extra work that comes along with community building. The problem (and solution) you discuss on the Teamfortress blog is an interesting read and is absolutely a step in the right direction. However I think what you're seeing with these Bad servers is a SYMPTOM of the real problem - NOT the problem itself. Now, don't get me wrong - if I were to join a server advertising 30/32 players only to find it was empty or close to it, I would be annoyed personally - and we certainly don't use this particular tactic at TrashedGamers. But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. They WANT people to play there because they have put forth the time and effort to put up these servers, websites and what not in an attempt to run a successful, thriving community. While I might disagree with the method, I don't find any malice in its intent. I'm not trying to justify their actions, I'm simply good at playing Devil's Advocate. Now - you might argue that you made this SteamCommunity.com infrastructure to help build communities, but this is also flawed in a sense. I assume that you built this infrastructure so members who frequent certain servers, have similar interests (like cookies) and what not will have a common meeting place. Personally, we use it as a userbase for filling our servers. Toss up an event, and the server will be full in under 5 minutes, and for us - stay that way sometimes for several days. But this too has a dark side as I'm SURE you're aware. Man, we invite everybody. Since everyone's community ID is out there in the open for anyone to grab, inviting massive amounts of people in a fairly short time is trivial. We do it. That Kifferstupidwhatever group does it. I would argue that ALL the top 10-20 groups have done it or are still actively doing it. But is the SteamCommunity site really serving its intended purpose? I doubt it :) So - before you consider a mass delisting of servers that are using whatever trickery to keep them active, consider the actual root of the problem - NOT just the symptoms. Before doing anything crass,
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
I like this idea a lot -Atreus On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Nephyrin Zey nephy...@doublezen.netwrote: I agree mostly, but fuck if wall of text didn't crit me for 10k damage. Just let me add: A while back i suggested a new server browser wherein users see where their friends play a lot, where groupmates play, etc, instead of just a wall of servers. This helps build communities and draw in players. Let players see what 'ratings' others *in their steam group/friends list* had given a server (not just a massive ratings spam system). It would also give exposure to new/small servers, since a few community members say 'this place is pretty cool' would give it exposure to the rest of the community. At that point it becomes disadvantageous to be in huge spamgroups, and players will want to be in smaller likeminded groups that let them find cool servers. - Neph ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
I like that suggestion And they could also make the browser like the UT games did, click on a server and see a list of mods that the server is running. On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Nephyrin Zey nephy...@doublezen.netwrote: I agree mostly, but fuck if wall of text didn't crit me for 10k damage. Just let me add: A while back i suggested a new server browser wherein users see where their friends play a lot, where groupmates play, etc, instead of just a wall of servers. This helps build communities and draw in players. Let players see what 'ratings' others *in their steam group/friends list* had given a server (not just a massive ratings spam system). It would also give exposure to new/small servers, since a few community members say 'this place is pretty cool' would give it exposure to the rest of the community. At that point it becomes disadvantageous to be in huge spamgroups, and players will want to be in smaller likeminded groups that let them find cool servers. - Neph ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- Kris ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
Yep. Agreed. I think that WHATEVER the solution is, it should reward the people that work hard to make their community popular. The current solutions out there don't quite do that... Every time I send out a game event, 50 people leave the steamgroup even though they voluntarily joined - not exactly the intended effect :) While people still join the server, there's no telling how many people from Absurdistan will connect, see their ping responses are apparently being delivered by UPS, then quit - which tells me that the whole Steamgroup system needs some more control around it - but in a way where it's still useful to server operators. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of msleeper Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 10:31 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) Yeah, the best of us have all been there. 3v3 Dustbowl in a 32 man server for weeks. Eventually you find enough like-minded people and add enough people to your friends list and spam the hell out of the best feature that has ever been created, Invite To Game, that you hit a critical mass and can stand up on your own. On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 02:25 +, steve grout wrote: quote | But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. |/quote yes they are trying to attract people but in a dishonest and VERY lazy way.. it shoes that they are not prepared to put the work in to populate the servers... i know for one that i have sat alone many an hour on a server to get people in. Fake slot = lazy imho Karl Weckstrom wrote: I've been meaning to post about the whole subject of Server Scoring, but I wanted to read everything you guys posted, let it sink in and all that. I'm glad you've been putting some thought into this - but I hope you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I hope you'll read this and also let it soak in, even if it's just one man's opinion. Now - I own and partially run the Trashedgamers.com community. We're quite new, only around about 6 months. But in the golden days of old, I ran another gaming community called Railbait (www.railbait.com, now defunct). 10 years ago, things were a lot different. Running a gameserver means you were actually spent some money on bandwidth and hardware as opposed to today. If you ran a server and it was fairly decently policed, you were pretty much guaranteed it would be popular. At the height of Railbait's times, we had nearly 200 player slots filled 24x7 and it was nearly effortless to accomplish. We never had to work to fill servers, people would voluntarily pug some people and do it themselves. People were just HAPPY that they had a new place to play! Times are much different now. Bandwidth is cheap, and anyone with mommy or daddy's cable connection can potentially run a server, or they can pay a few bucks a month and rent one. Webhosting costs next to nothing. Symmetric fiber lines are $70/mo for 20/20 in certain areas, etc. So it's time you realized something, Valve - and take this to heart: There's such a huge surplus of servers out there now, it practically takes an act of God to actually make any given one popular. Players now have SO many choices (dare I say, TOO many choices) that they have become extremely jaded. A tight-knit community is so incredibly hard to form today, many server owners simply don't bother with the extra work that comes along with community building. The problem (and solution) you discuss on the Teamfortress blog is an interesting read and is absolutely a step in the right direction. However I think what you're seeing with these Bad servers is a SYMPTOM of the real problem - NOT the problem itself. Now, don't get me wrong - if I were to join a server advertising 30/32 players only to find it was empty or close to it, I would be annoyed personally - and we certainly don't use this particular tactic at TrashedGamers. But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. They WANT people to play there because they have put forth the time and effort to put up these servers, websites and what not in an attempt to run a successful, thriving community. While I might disagree with the method, I don't find any malice in its intent. I'm not trying to justify their actions, I'm simply good at playing Devil's Advocate. Now - you might argue that you made this SteamCommunity.com infrastructure to help build communities, but this is also flawed in a sense. I assume that you built this infrastructure so members who frequent certain servers, have similar
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
The *paying* players are THE most important aspect of this. Im on both sides of the fence, but im with the players all the way on this. You only got to check the forums to see just how many paying players moan about lieing cheating server admins who manipulate the system. It stinks. They wont care one iota for de-listing servers or GSP's moaning about their IP's. They'll embrace this. You watch. Players are fickle - i dont run a clan anymore, i got sick of people joining, leaving, joining, leaving etc etc. This week alone i seen 2 mates wear 2 different tags. Most players dont give a hoot for communities, they want to belong, but when they do, they think the grass is greener on the other side. http://www.sidesteal.com/images/ach.png This scoring system will be one of the best things valve has done for its customers. On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 2:35 AM, Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com wrote: Yep. Agreed. I think that WHATEVER the solution is, it should reward the people that work hard to make their community popular. The current solutions out there don't quite do that... Every time I send out a game event, 50 people leave the steamgroup even though they voluntarily joined - not exactly the intended effect :) While people still join the server, there's no telling how many people from Absurdistan will connect, see their ping responses are apparently being delivered by UPS, then quit - which tells me that the whole Steamgroup system needs some more control around it - but in a way where it's still useful to server operators. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of msleeper Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 10:31 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) Yeah, the best of us have all been there. 3v3 Dustbowl in a 32 man server for weeks. Eventually you find enough like-minded people and add enough people to your friends list and spam the hell out of the best feature that has ever been created, Invite To Game, that you hit a critical mass and can stand up on your own. On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 02:25 +, steve grout wrote: quote | But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. |/quote yes they are trying to attract people but in a dishonest and VERY lazy way.. it shoes that they are not prepared to put the work in to populate the servers... i know for one that i have sat alone many an hour on a server to get people in. Fake slot = lazy imho Karl Weckstrom wrote: I've been meaning to post about the whole subject of Server Scoring, but I wanted to read everything you guys posted, let it sink in and all that. I'm glad you've been putting some thought into this - but I hope you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I hope you'll read this and also let it soak in, even if it's just one man's opinion. Now - I own and partially run the Trashedgamers.com community. We're quite new, only around about 6 months. But in the golden days of old, I ran another gaming community called Railbait (www.railbait.com, now defunct). 10 years ago, things were a lot different. Running a gameserver means you were actually spent some money on bandwidth and hardware as opposed to today. If you ran a server and it was fairly decently policed, you were pretty much guaranteed it would be popular. At the height of Railbait's times, we had nearly 200 player slots filled 24x7 and it was nearly effortless to accomplish. We never had to work to fill servers, people would voluntarily pug some people and do it themselves. People were just HAPPY that they had a new place to play! Times are much different now. Bandwidth is cheap, and anyone with mommy or daddy's cable connection can potentially run a server, or they can pay a few bucks a month and rent one. Webhosting costs next to nothing. Symmetric fiber lines are $70/mo for 20/20 in certain areas, etc. So it's time you realized something, Valve - and take this to heart: There's such a huge surplus of servers out there now, it practically takes an act of God to actually make any given one popular. Players now have SO many choices (dare I say, TOO many choices) that they have become extremely jaded. A tight-knit community is so incredibly hard to form today, many server owners simply don't bother with the extra work that comes along with community building. The problem (and solution) you discuss on the Teamfortress blog is an interesting read and is absolutely a step in the right direction. However I think what you're seeing with these Bad servers is a SYMPTOM of the real problem - NOT the problem itself. Now, don't get me wrong - if I were to join a server advertising 30/32 players only to find
Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :)
I still think they're treating the symptom rather than the problem. Though granted - sometimes you have no choice. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Shelley Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 11:57 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) The *paying* players are THE most important aspect of this. Im on both sides of the fence, but im with the players all the way on this. You only got to check the forums to see just how many paying players moan about lieing cheating server admins who manipulate the system. It stinks. They wont care one iota for de-listing servers or GSP's moaning about their IP's. They'll embrace this. You watch. Players are fickle - i dont run a clan anymore, i got sick of people joining, leaving, joining, leaving etc etc. This week alone i seen 2 mates wear 2 different tags. Most players dont give a hoot for communities, they want to belong, but when they do, they think the grass is greener on the other side. http://www.sidesteal.com/images/ach.png This scoring system will be one of the best things valve has done for its customers. On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 2:35 AM, Karl Weckstrom k...@weckstrom.com wrote: Yep. Agreed. I think that WHATEVER the solution is, it should reward the people that work hard to make their community popular. The current solutions out there don't quite do that... Every time I send out a game event, 50 people leave the steamgroup even though they voluntarily joined - not exactly the intended effect :) While people still join the server, there's no telling how many people from Absurdistan will connect, see their ping responses are apparently being delivered by UPS, then quit - which tells me that the whole Steamgroup system needs some more control around it - but in a way where it's still useful to server operators. -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of msleeper Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 10:31 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) Yeah, the best of us have all been there. 3v3 Dustbowl in a 32 man server for weeks. Eventually you find enough like-minded people and add enough people to your friends list and spam the hell out of the best feature that has ever been created, Invite To Game, that you hit a critical mass and can stand up on your own. On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 02:25 +, steve grout wrote: quote | But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult market. |/quote yes they are trying to attract people but in a dishonest and VERY lazy way.. it shoes that they are not prepared to put the work in to populate the servers... i know for one that i have sat alone many an hour on a server to get people in. Fake slot = lazy imho Karl Weckstrom wrote: I've been meaning to post about the whole subject of Server Scoring, but I wanted to read everything you guys posted, let it sink in and all that. I'm glad you've been putting some thought into this - but I hope you take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I hope you'll read this and also let it soak in, even if it's just one man's opinion. Now - I own and partially run the Trashedgamers.com community. We're quite new, only around about 6 months. But in the golden days of old, I ran another gaming community called Railbait (www.railbait.com, now defunct). 10 years ago, things were a lot different. Running a gameserver means you were actually spent some money on bandwidth and hardware as opposed to today. If you ran a server and it was fairly decently policed, you were pretty much guaranteed it would be popular. At the height of Railbait's times, we had nearly 200 player slots filled 24x7 and it was nearly effortless to accomplish. We never had to work to fill servers, people would voluntarily pug some people and do it themselves. People were just HAPPY that they had a new place to play! Times are much different now. Bandwidth is cheap, and anyone with mommy or daddy's cable connection can potentially run a server, or they can pay a few bucks a month and rent one. Webhosting costs next to nothing. Symmetric fiber lines are $70/mo for 20/20 in certain areas, etc. So it's time you realized something, Valve - and take this to heart: There's such a huge surplus of servers out there now, it practically takes an act of God to actually make any given one popular. Players now have SO many choices (dare I say, TOO many choices) that they have become extremely jaded. A tight-knit community is so incredibly hard to form today, many server owners simply don't bother with the extra
