Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Félix]

The title of this thread made me remember when I discovered Leo: it was 
back in 2002 on slashdot... reading the description I just had to try it 
out! 

https://slashdot.org/story/02/08/28/1655207

I remember that evening, when I was amazed at the simple outline navigation 
and editing inspired from the 'MORE' outline editor, and the file 
generation/importing it allowed.

Ah! some nostalgia about 2002, those were the good old days of my 20's!

Félix

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:38:30 PM UTC-4 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> Here are two utility commands/scripts I use that help with this kind of 
> thing.  
>
> 1) get_plugins -- Show all plugins with their their docstrings.
> 2) Create Outline From Clipboard -- With a copied node or entire outline 
> in the clipboard, create a new outline from it.
>
> Run  *get_plugins * with CTRL-B to install its commands.  Run the *Create 
> Outline From Clipboard*  node with CTRL-B when you have a node or outline 
> in the clipboard to create a new outline with that node.  It's convenient 
> for making small outlines to share, like this attached one.
>
> In the output from *get_plugins* we can find this bit:
>
> nav_qt.py   
> Adds "Back" and "Forward" buttons (Qt only).  Creates "back"
> and "forward" buttons on button bar. These navigate the node
> history. ...
>
> It's a whole lot easier than pawing through LeoPyRef to try to find out 
> what they do.
>
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:13:23 PM UTC-4 jkn wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:01:58 PM UTC gates...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 3:29 PM jkn  wrote:
>>>

>
 Bl**dy hell, I remember now, there used to be forward and back arrows 
 on the toolbar, didn't there? Why do I no longer see them??


>>> I think they're part of the nav_qt.py (or similarly named) plugin.  
>>> Might not have it in @enabled-plugins :) 
>>>
>>
>> Thank you - somewhat amusingly I see in the plugins directory on this 
>> machine (my main one, for a long time),
>> I have a nav_qt.pyc file from 2016!
>>
>> I guess I lost the plugin during some period of leo unuse around that 
>> time, and didn't re-enable it,
>> nor remember about the buttons, when I later updated things.
>>
>> How I've been suffering for the last 5+ years...
>>
>> J^n
>>
>>
>>

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

Here are two utility commands/scripts I use that help with this kind of 
thing.  

1) get_plugins -- Show all plugins with their their docstrings.
2) Create Outline From Clipboard -- With a copied node or entire outline in 
the clipboard, create a new outline from it.

Run  *get_plugins * with CTRL-B to install its commands.  Run the *Create 
Outline From Clipboard*  node with CTRL-B when you have a node or outline 
in the clipboard to create a new outline with that node.  It's convenient 
for making small outlines to share, like this attached one.

In the output from *get_plugins* we can find this bit:

nav_qt.py   
Adds "Back" and "Forward" buttons (Qt only).  Creates "back"
and "forward" buttons on button bar. These navigate the node
history. ...

It's a whole lot easier than pawing through LeoPyRef to try to find out 
what they do.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:13:23 PM UTC-4 jkn wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:01:58 PM UTC gates...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 3:29 PM jkn  wrote:
>>
>>>

>>> Bl**dy hell, I remember now, there used to be forward and back arrows on 
>>> the toolbar, didn't there? Why do I no longer see them??
>>>
>>>
>> I think they're part of the nav_qt.py (or similarly named) plugin.  Might 
>> not have it in @enabled-plugins :) 
>>
>
> Thank you - somewhat amusingly I see in the plugins directory on this 
> machine (my main one, for a long time),
> I have a nav_qt.pyc file from 2016!
>
> I guess I lost the plugin during some period of leo unuse around that 
> time, and didn't re-enable it,
> nor remember about the buttons, when I later updated things.
>
> How I've been suffering for the last 5+ years...
>
> J^n
>
>
>

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http://leoeditor.com/namespaces/leo-python-editor/1.1; >





get_plugins
find_python_files
get_docstr

Create Outline From Clipboard


@language python
from os import listdir
from textwrap import wrap

@g.command('show-plugins-doc-clip')
def show_plugins_doc_clip(event=None, useclip = True):
"""List all plugins and their docstrings.

Output to the clipboard.
"""
plugins_dir=g.os_path_join(g.app.leoDir,'plugins')

@others

files = find_python_files(plugins_dir)
entries = []
for fil in files:
pth = g.os_path_join(plugins_dir, fil)
with open(pth, encoding = 'utf-8') as f:
block = f.read()
docstr = get_docstr(block)
entries.append(f'{fil:22}  {docstr}')
entries_str = '\n'.join(entries)
if useclip:
g.app.gui.replaceClipboardWith(entries_str)
else:
tabName = 'List'
c.frame.log.clearTab(tabName)
g.es(entries_str, tabName = tabName)

@g.command('show-plugins-doc')
def show_plugins_doc(event=None, useclip = False):
"""List all plugins and their docstrings.

Output to A Log Pane tab named "List".
"""
show_plugins_doc_clip(event, useclip)

def find_python_files(path):
pythons = []
for item in listdir(path):
if item.endswith('.py') and '__init__' not in item:
pythons.append(item)
return pythons


def get_docstr(block, too_long = 5):
"""Try to find the docstring of a python file.

Works even if the docstr is contained in a  named section .
The docstring is shortened if it contains too many lines,
and is rewrapped.

Docstring multiline formatting principles:
1. First line is not blank.
2. First line has same indentation as the rest of the body.
3. No more than too_long lines.
4. If clipped, end docstr with ellipsis ('...').
5. If last line would contain only an ellipsis, move it
   to the end of the previous line and remove the last (now blank)
   line.
6. No sentinal lines included. 

RETURNS:
the modified docstring
"""
start = -1
for quote in '"""', "'''":
start = block.find(quote)
if start  -1:
break

if start == -1:
return ''

start = block.find(quote) + 3
end =  start + block[start:].find(quote)
doc = block[start:end]

if doc == 'None':
doc = ''

# Formatting for multi-line docstring
doclines = [line for line in doc.split('\n') if not line.lstrip().startswith('#@')]
if not doclines[0].strip():
doclines = doclines[1:]
toolong = len(doclines)  5
if toolong:
doclines = doclines[:4]
doclines[0] = doclines[0].lstrip()
while not doclines[-1].strip():
doclines.pop(-1)
doclines[-1] += ' ...'
doc = '\n'.join(doclines)
manylines = 

Re: How did I came across Leo?

[jkn]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:01:58 PM UTC gates...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 3:29 PM jkn  wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>> Bl**dy hell, I remember now, there used to be forward and back arrows on 
>> the toolbar, didn't there? Why do I no longer see them??
>>
>>
> I think they're part of the nav_qt.py (or similarly named) plugin.  Might 
> not have it in @enabled-plugins :) 
>

Thank you - somewhat amusingly I see in the plugins directory on this 
machine (my main one, for a long time),
I have a nav_qt.pyc file from 2016!

I guess I lost the plugin during some period of leo unuse around that time, 
and didn't re-enable it,
nor remember about the buttons, when I later updated things.

How I've been suffering for the last 5+ years...

J^n


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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Jacob Peck]

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 3:29 PM jkn  wrote:

>
>>
> Bl**dy hell, I remember now, there used to be forward and back arrows on
> the toolbar, didn't there? Why do I no longer see them??
>
>
I think they're part of the nav_qt.py (or similarly named) plugin.  Might
not have it in @enabled-plugins :)

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[jkn]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 3:03:55 PM UTC tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> On the subject of CTRL-clicking, Leo has a feature that is fantastic when 
> you are cruising around in its source code trying to learn how something 
> works.  If you CTRL-click on a method invocation, you will get transported 
> to its definition.  It misses once in a while, but usually  works.
>
> Here's an example you can walk through.  Open the LeoPyRef.leo outline 
> (File/Open Specific Leo File).  This contains Leo's code base. In the tree 
> view, select *Command Classes* and expand it, then select *@file 
> ../commands/checkerCommands.py * and expand that.  Expand class 
> *MypyCommand* and select the *mypy.check_all* node.  In the body you will 
> see self.check_file(fn).  Hmm, what does that do?  CNTL-click on it, and 
> Leo will navigate to the *mypy.check_file* node.  In this case the node 
> is right there in view anyway, but in other cases it could be somewhere 
> else and you'd have trouble finding it.
>
> You can navigate back to the starting point by clicking the back arrow 
> button (twice in this case).
>
>
Bl**dy hell, I remember now, there used to be forward and back arrows on 
the toolbar, didn't there? Why do I no longer see them??

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[jkn]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 2:41:05 PM UTC tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 10:21:50 AM UTC-4 jkn wrote:
>
>> A couple of points from this interesting list:
>>
>> > - the minibuffer is inherited from emacs, and serves ... a yet to 
>> discover number of functions
>> Personally I think 'minibuffer' is an unhelpful name, it's just an 
>> interface to allow you to enter commands to Leo. Type 'show-commands' in 
>> the minibuffer and you should get a long list of available commands in the 
>> log window.
>>
>
> And in the latest changeset in the devel branch, there is 
> *show-commands-with-docs,*  which shows the docstrings with the commands. 
> Sometimes that can help understand what they do.
>
>>
>>
>
Actually, when I was writing that I was thinking about having "show-command 
" do that...

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Christophe Vermeulen]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:13:18 PM UTC+1 gates...@gmail.com wrote:

> Being a programmer, the whole 'everything is scriptable, data is 
> accessible anywhere' bit really made me excited.  
>
I'm not even sure I'm a programmer, but reading this, I guess I'm not. 
 

>  Leo is pretty central to how I interact with data and organize 
> information.  It's a grand tool.
>
I can feel it, but I don't know 
- if I will be able to "really adopt it" (meaning making it an obvious 
choice, like Excel or PlanMaker for tables)
- how long it takes to become proficient with it.

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Christophe Vermeulen]

 I don't think anyone is going to do much more documentation - and it would 
be hard to organize in a way that is both helpful and practical to search.

> if you want to do some Sphinx-style documentation 
>
Actually, I discovered the existence of Sphinx as a side effect of my 
discovery of leo.  

Leo is so large, complicated, and flexible, it can be hard to track down 
> the information you need
>
 That statement is a little bit in contradiction with the  main marketing 
message ;-) Not that I disagree.
 

>   I don't think anyone is going to do much more documentation 
>
I hope you will be proven wrong, because this is one of the thing that 
limits leo's popularity. At least core-developers should know it. Of 
course, then they are free to care or not. 
 

> Really, there's a need for a Leo book.  I have no idea who would be 
> willing and knowledgeable enough to write one.  I don't know enough, and 
> anyhow I don't have another book left in me.
>
I know definitely less, and I never wrote a book. But for an "outliner", 
the inexistence of _any_ book is strikingly paradoxal, isn't it ? Shouldn't 
starting "the (outline of the) Leo book in leo" be a trivial task for any 
of the core contributors ? (Just kidding)

But it can be very rewarding when you finally get some piece of code that 
> does something you need but that doesn't seem to exist.
>
That's the worst : it may exist, but you (at least I) don't know it.
 

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 11:13:18 AM UTC-4 gates...@gmail.com wrote:

>  It's my primary IDE these days, and I've written quite a few 'LApps' 
> (leo-apps) that live inside their own outlines for various tasks -- 
> effectively custom tools.  Leo is pretty central to how I interact with 
> data and organize information.  It's a grand tool.
>

I learned about another terrific feature just a few weeks ago that will 
whet your appetite if you don't know about it already.  Say you want to 
write a mini-application, and it should write to some display, and not to 
one of Leo's standard panels. So you would want to construct a custom 
widget, but how to use it in practice?  Making a plugin and getting it into 
the splitter is tricky, especially if you haven't done it before, and 
there's a degree of boilerplate, etc.

Turns out that you can create a new tab for it in the log pane with almost 
no effort.  That's how those tabs like Find, Spell, Nav, etc are handled.  
I was able to adapt my viewrendered3 plugin into a non-plugin tab in about 
15 minutes at most.  I have got a browser bookmark manager running in its 
own tab.

Basically you ask the tab manager to open a new tab that has your widget, 
like this:

# Imports first
log = c.frame.log
log.selectTab('Your Tab', widget = yourWidget(c, g)) # or whatever args you 
need

That's it!  The tab manager handles all the layout, naming, etc, 
technicalities for you.  After you've got the tab, you can switch to it 
programatically by calling selectTab()with its tab name, omitting the 
widget.

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Jacob Peck]

On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 11:04 AM tbp1...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> On the subject of CTRL-clicking, Leo has a feature that is fantastic when
> you are cruising around in its source code trying to learn how something
> works.  If you CTRL-click on a method invocation, you will get transported
> to its definition.  It misses once in a while, but usually  works.
>

Been using and hacking on Leo since 2013 and I had *no idea* about this.
This changes everything.  Thanks for this.

FWIW, I stumbled on Leo while looking for something that would organize my
notes for a tabletop RPG campaign in a sensible manner.  Being a
programmer, the whole 'everything is scriptable, data is accessible
anywhere' bit really made me excited.  It's my primary IDE these days, and
I've written quite a few 'LApps' (leo-apps) that live inside their own
outlines for various tasks -- effectively custom tools.  Leo is pretty
central to how I interact with data and organize information.  It's a grand
tool.

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

On the subject of CTRL-clicking, Leo has a feature that is fantastic when 
you are cruising around in its source code trying to learn how something 
works.  If you CTRL-click on a method invocation, you will get transported 
to its definition.  It misses once in a while, but usually  works.

Here's an example you can walk through.  Open the LeoPyRef.leo outline 
(File/Open Specific Leo File).  This contains Leo's code base. In the tree 
view, select *Command Classes* and expand it, then select *@file 
../commands/checkerCommands.py * and expand that.  Expand class 
*MypyCommand* and select the *mypy.check_all* node.  In the body you will 
see self.check_file(fn).  Hmm, what does that do?  CNTL-click on it, and 
Leo will navigate to the *mypy.check_file* node.  In this case the node is 
right there in view anyway, but in other cases it could be somewhere else 
and you'd have trouble finding it.

You can navigate back to the starting point by clicking the back arrow 
button (twice in this case).

Leo is loaded with goodies like this but it can be hard to find out about 
them.
On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 10:45:27 AM UTC-4 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> Oh, yes, and when you get a long listing in a tab like the commands 
> listing, you can select all the output with the usual CTRL-A and copy it 
> with the usual CTRL-C.  Then you can paste it somewhere that is more 
> readable, like a Leo node or a text editor.
>
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 10:41:05 AM UTC-4 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 10:21:50 AM UTC-4 jkn wrote:
>>
>>> A couple of points from this interesting list:
>>>
>>> > - the minibuffer is inherited from emacs, and serves ... a yet to 
>>> discover number of functions
>>> Personally I think 'minibuffer' is an unhelpful name, it's just an 
>>> interface to allow you to enter commands to Leo. Type 'show-commands' in 
>>> the minibuffer and you should get a long list of available commands in the 
>>> log window.
>>>
>>
>> And in the latest changeset in the devel branch, there is 
>> *show-commands-with-docs,*  which shows the docstrings with the 
>> commands. Sometimes that can help understand what they do.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

Oh, yes, and when you get a long listing in a tab like the commands 
listing, you can select all the output with the usual CTRL-A and copy it 
with the usual CTRL-C.  Then you can paste it somewhere that is more 
readable, like a Leo node or a text editor.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 10:41:05 AM UTC-4 tbp1...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 10:21:50 AM UTC-4 jkn wrote:
>
>> A couple of points from this interesting list:
>>
>> > - the minibuffer is inherited from emacs, and serves ... a yet to 
>> discover number of functions
>> Personally I think 'minibuffer' is an unhelpful name, it's just an 
>> interface to allow you to enter commands to Leo. Type 'show-commands' in 
>> the minibuffer and you should get a long list of available commands in the 
>> log window.
>>
>
> And in the latest changeset in the devel branch, there is 
> *show-commands-with-docs,*  which shows the docstrings with the commands. 
> Sometimes that can help understand what they do.
>
>>
>>
>

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 10:21:50 AM UTC-4 jkn wrote:

> A couple of points from this interesting list:
>
> > - the minibuffer is inherited from emacs, and serves ... a yet to 
> discover number of functions
> Personally I think 'minibuffer' is an unhelpful name, it's just an 
> interface to allow you to enter commands to Leo. Type 'show-commands' in 
> the minibuffer and you should get a long list of available commands in the 
> log window.
>

And in the latest changeset in the devel branch, there is 
*show-commands-with-docs,*  which shows the docstrings with the commands. 
Sometimes that can help understand what they do.

>
>

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[jkn]

A couple of points from this interesting list:

> - leo ... includes ... a copy of an editor (CKEditor4) that is apparently 
written in Javascript
Really?!?

> - highlighted text (including URLs are NOT links. you need to copy/paste 
them to open (or maybe use a still-to-discover setting)
Ctrl-click on a URL will (should) take you there. I am not sure where this 
is documented, there are probably more of these. There is a recent 
discussion about 'right-click on the splitter bar' which gave hints of a 
world beyond my knowing...

> - the minibuffer is inherited from emacs, and serves ... a yet to 
discover number of functions
Personally I think 'minibuffer' is an unhelpful name, it's just an 
interface to allow you to enter commands to Leo. Type 'show-commands' in 
the minibuffer and you should get a long list of available commands in the 
log window.

HTH, a little at least
J^n

On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 10:07:43 PM UTC cve...@gmail.com wrote:

> Well, I came across leo last week, looking for a python IDE that would 
> (potentially) 
> - run on Windows
> - allow to make the resulting python run on a separate computer (same 
> network but different subnet) for security reasons, maybe on Linux.
> - ideally, the python script could run with another user account and 
> decrypt the data files locally, so that the programmer would not access 
> data at all.
> - the Python file would then create aggregated results and send (or share) 
> them to other team members.
> On that project, no decision has been taken yet, likely to happen end of 
> Q2.
>
> But my history is close to map...'s one :
> - I tried mind map tools and was dissatisfied (I don't care about 
> "beautiful links" and I'm colorblind). I mostly use Excel sheets for that.
> - I searched for decades for the perfect file editor (still notepad++ for 
> me, I'm not the vi or emacs type)
> - I also used OneNote (on a on-off, not really satistied basis)
> - My interest on python is both on "datafile crunching" and "time series 
> graphics"
> - I used twiki 20 years ago and contributed a few routines, including 
> HandlingPlurals (now removed, only echoed on Ward Cunningham c2.com, 
> stale recently, i.e. in 2015)
>
> In the mean time/week, I installed leo (once), wrote my first outline, 
> lost it (maybe it's somewhere on my computer), and discovered a few things 
> that should be documented IMHO but could look obviously trivial for the 
> core team 
> - a .leo file is using XML and using userid and timestamps for node 
> description, but the text is ... untouched UTF-8?
> - leo is said to be "an editor" written in Python, but includes ... a copy 
> of an editor (CKEditor4) that is apparently written in Javascript, and 
> unpatched since 2014 (and unused ?)
> - leo commands are of the form "@name", most of which a newbie like me 
> should ignore, and some of which are purposely undocumented (@root and 
> others)
> - for a newbie, there could be more answers to FAQ in the history.leo file 
> than in the FAQ itself.
> - the minibuffer is inherited from emacs, and serves ... a yet to discover 
> number of functions
> - many of the .leo files are probably there for history only. Could be an 
> interesting journey, wonderland, or getting lost in useless files (or nodes 
> ? or sth else ?)
> - several the .leo files are information that may be important only for 
> .leo developers (or maybe only the inventor himself ?). My limited python 
> experience give me absolutely no clue what they could be used for. In any 
> case, there are not tagged "for dev only" or so.
> - the leo windows is using Qt internally
> - EKR is the userID of Edward, the inventor and maintainer  of leo
> - highlighted text (including URLs are NOT links. you need to copy/paste 
> them to open (or maybe use a still-to-discover setting)
> - opening leo will open the "workbook.leo" outline by default, but likely 
> others as well according to settings.
>
> On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 10:10:52 PM UTC+1 map...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> It has been almost 14 months since I discovered Leo and today I recalled 
>>> how I found it.
>>>
>>  
>> Thanks for this thread. I've been trying to recall my own path of 
>> discovery. No concrete memory has emerged, but it was somewhere in the 
>> intersection of being dissatisfied with wiki notes and mind/concept 
>> mapping, starting to learn python, and a multi-decade quest for the perfect 
>> text editor (1999-2004 
>> ,
>>  
>> 2010 ). 
>> Gmail says I subscribed to the Leo mailing list in 2009 with my first 
>> concrete contribution in August -- a Windows install recipe 
>> . 
>> Huh. I'm still doing that now!
>>
>> In spite of the lengthy time since discovering Leo and bringing it into 
>> my permanent toolkit, 

Re: How did I came across Leo?

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

It's true that there can be a huge learning curve if you want to get beyond 
the obvious and do some custom things. Yet if you learn to use @file and 
@clean files, and especially if you want to develop in Python, or do some 
Sphinx-style documentation,  you can get that going pretty easily.  Because 
Leo is so large, complicated, and flexible, it can be hard to track down 
the information you need.  And I don't think anyone is going to do much 
more documentation - and it would be hard to organize in a way that is both 
helpful and practical to search.

Really, there's a need for a Leo book.  I have no idea who would be willing 
and knowledgeable enough to write one.  I don't know enough, and anyhow I 
don't have another book left in me.

But it can be very rewarding when you finally get some piece of code that 
does something you need but that doesn't seem to exist.

A programming tip  for scripts that run within Leo is to try to use 
existing Leo commands - the ones you would normally launch from the 
minibuffer (that is, by starting with ALT-x).  In a script, you can run a 
command by knowing its name:

c.k.simulateCommand('command-name')  # c and g are always available to 
scripts
# or
c.executeMinibufferCommand('command-name')

Why two commands that seem to be similar?  Heck, I don't know - must be 
some historical reason. g gives access to just about any app-wide Leo 
function, data collection, or class.  c gives similar access to things that 
are local to the selected outline, including the selected node.

Once you have written a script you like and might use frequently, you can 
turn it into a new Leo command, on the same footing as the built-in 
commands.   You can execute it from the minibuffer, or put it into a launch 
button or a custom menu item.  It's still not totally obvious how to do 
these things, but at least in this case there is some help from 
documentation, and in looking at how it's done for other scripts and, say, 
launch buttons (right-click on a button to go to its script).

Plus asking here!
On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 6:07:43 PM UTC-4 cve...@gmail.com wrote:

> Well, I came across leo last week, looking for a python IDE that would 
> (potentially) 
> - run on Windows
> - allow to make the resulting python run on a separate computer (same 
> network but different subnet) for security reasons, maybe on Linux.
> - ideally, the python script could run with another user account and 
> decrypt the data files locally, so that the programmer would not access 
> data at all.
> - the Python file would then create aggregated results and send (or share) 
> them to other team members.
> On that project, no decision has been taken yet, likely to happen end of 
> Q2.
>
> But my history is close to map...'s one :
> - I tried mind map tools and was dissatisfied (I don't care about 
> "beautiful links" and I'm colorblind). I mostly use Excel sheets for that.
> - I searched for decades for the perfect file editor (still notepad++ for 
> me, I'm not the vi or emacs type)
> - I also used OneNote (on a on-off, not really satistied basis)
> - My interest on python is both on "datafile crunching" and "time series 
> graphics"
> - I used twiki 20 years ago and contributed a few routines, including 
> HandlingPlurals (now removed, only echoed on Ward Cunningham c2.com, 
> stale recently, i.e. in 2015)
>
> In the mean time/week, I installed leo (once), wrote my first outline, 
> lost it (maybe it's somewhere on my computer), and discovered a few things 
> that should be documented IMHO but could look obviously trivial for the 
> core team 
> - a .leo file is using XML and using userid and timestamps for node 
> description, but the text is ... untouched UTF-8?
> - leo is said to be "an editor" written in Python, but includes ... a copy 
> of an editor (CKEditor4) that is apparently written in Javascript, and 
> unpatched since 2014 (and unused ?)
> - leo commands are of the form "@name", most of which a newbie like me 
> should ignore, and some of which are purposely undocumented (@root and 
> others)
> - for a newbie, there could be more answers to FAQ in the history.leo file 
> than in the FAQ itself.
> - the minibuffer is inherited from emacs, and serves ... a yet to discover 
> number of functions
> - many of the .leo files are probably there for history only. Could be an 
> interesting journey, wonderland, or getting lost in useless files (or nodes 
> ? or sth else ?)
> - several the .leo files are information that may be important only for 
> .leo developers (or maybe only the inventor himself ?). My limited python 
> experience give me absolutely no clue what they could be used for. In any 
> case, there are not tagged "for dev only" or so.
> - the leo windows is using Qt internally
> - EKR is the userID of Edward, the inventor and maintainer  of leo
> - highlighted text (including URLs are NOT links. you need to copy/paste 
> them to open (or maybe use a still-to-discover setting)
> - opening 

Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Christophe Vermeulen]

Well, I came across leo last week, looking for a python IDE that would 
(potentially) 
- run on Windows
- allow to make the resulting python run on a separate computer (same 
network but different subnet) for security reasons, maybe on Linux.
- ideally, the python script could run with another user account and 
decrypt the data files locally, so that the programmer would not access 
data at all.
- the Python file would then create aggregated results and send (or share) 
them to other team members.
On that project, no decision has been taken yet, likely to happen end of Q2.

But my history is close to map...'s one :
- I tried mind map tools and was dissatisfied (I don't care about 
"beautiful links" and I'm colorblind). I mostly use Excel sheets for that.
- I searched for decades for the perfect file editor (still notepad++ for 
me, I'm not the vi or emacs type)
- I also used OneNote (on a on-off, not really satistied basis)
- My interest on python is both on "datafile crunching" and "time series 
graphics"
- I used twiki 20 years ago and contributed a few routines, including 
HandlingPlurals (now removed, only echoed on Ward Cunningham c2.com, stale 
recently, i.e. in 2015)

In the mean time/week, I installed leo (once), wrote my first outline, lost 
it (maybe it's somewhere on my computer), and discovered a few things that 
should be documented IMHO but could look obviously trivial for the core 
team 
- a .leo file is using XML and using userid and timestamps for node 
description, but the text is ... untouched UTF-8?
- leo is said to be "an editor" written in Python, but includes ... a copy 
of an editor (CKEditor4) that is apparently written in Javascript, and 
unpatched since 2014 (and unused ?)
- leo commands are of the form "@name", most of which a newbie like me 
should ignore, and some of which are purposely undocumented (@root and 
others)
- for a newbie, there could be more answers to FAQ in the history.leo file 
than in the FAQ itself.
- the minibuffer is inherited from emacs, and serves ... a yet to discover 
number of functions
- many of the .leo files are probably there for history only. Could be an 
interesting journey, wonderland, or getting lost in useless files (or nodes 
? or sth else ?)
- several the .leo files are information that may be important only for 
.leo developers (or maybe only the inventor himself ?). My limited python 
experience give me absolutely no clue what they could be used for. In any 
case, there are not tagged "for dev only" or so.
- the leo windows is using Qt internally
- EKR is the userID of Edward, the inventor and maintainer  of leo
- highlighted text (including URLs are NOT links. you need to copy/paste 
them to open (or maybe use a still-to-discover setting)
- opening leo will open the "workbook.leo" outline by default, but likely 
others as well according to settings.

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 10:10:52 PM UTC+1 map...@gmail.com wrote:

> It has been almost 14 months since I discovered Leo and today I recalled 
>> how I found it.
>>
>  
> Thanks for this thread. I've been trying to recall my own path of 
> discovery. No concrete memory has emerged, but it was somewhere in the 
> intersection of being dissatisfied with wiki notes and mind/concept 
> mapping, starting to learn python, and a multi-decade quest for the perfect 
> text editor (1999-2004 
> ,
>  
> 2010 ). 
> Gmail says I subscribed to the Leo mailing list in 2009 with my first 
> concrete contribution in August -- a Windows install recipe 
> . 
> Huh. I'm still doing that now!
>
> In spite of the lengthy time since discovering Leo and bringing it into my 
> permanent toolkit, it's still not front and centre for much of my activity. 
> Onenote 
> desktop 
> is
>  
> my primary writing and organizing tool (the web app is ...meh) and Pyzo 
> the first stop for exploratory python. Much as 
> I love text I'm still a strong graphic creature. My dream writing platform 
> is all of the best parts of rich text & media editing fused with Leo's node 
> management and scripting. Bonus points if it's webby lets me punt Wordpress 
> and all the other web content management things I've tried and discarded 
> (jekyll, acrylamid, drupal, mindtouch, deki-wiki, twiki). 
>
> There is substantive aroma of my dream in the air right now, which is very 
> exciting. :)
>
> cheers,
>
> matt
>
>

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 9:18 PM, Matt Wilkie  wrote:

>>
​ ​
@root and Leo's tangle and untangle commands will remain "forever".
​>>​
They are, on purpose, no longer documented, [...]

>
​ ​
I would hope they are documented somewhere though? Perhaps within the code
if no place else.

leoPy.leo#Code-->Core classes-->@file leoTangle.py--><< About Tangle and
Untangle >>

However, this refers to Chapter 4, which no longer exits.

>I imagine a future self...
​​
wondering what it does. ;-)

​There is no reason for you or any dev *ever* to try to understand this
code. Just leave it as it is.

Edward​

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Matt Wilkie]

>
> ​@root and Leo's tangle and untangle commands will remain "forever".  They 
> are, on purpose, no longer documented, [...]
>

I would hope they are documented *somewhere* though? Perhaps within the 
code if no place else. I imagine a future self shooting myself in the foot 
while I spin this unknown thing this way and that wondering what it does. 
;-)

matt

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[David Szent-Györgyi]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 7:56:48 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 6:49 AM, David Szent-Györgyi  > wrote:
>
> ​> ​
> My coworker's motto was, "If it's stupid, and it works, it isn't stupid"!
>
> ​Hehe.  It's an arguable point.​
>  
> ​There is also an argument for cleanups, when possible.​
> ​ Vitalije is working on collapsing Leo's tree-drawing code as we speak.
>

Cleanup and improvement are worthwhile, given time and energy that I 
couldn't spare in those days. Now, I have some time to address the matter. 
 

> ​> ​
> Do we know whether @root and @tangle work in 2018-era Leo?
>
> ​@root and Leo's tangle and untangle commands will remain "forever".  They 
> are, on purpose, no longer documented, but there is nothing whatever to be 
> gained by removing a feature that you and others still use.
>

Thank you! 

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 6:49 AM, David Szent-Györgyi 
wrote:

​> ​
My coworker's motto was, "If it's stupid, and it works, it isn't stupid"!

​Hehe.  It's an arguable point.​

​There is also an argument for cleanups, when possible.​
​ Vitalije is working on collapsing Leo's tree-drawing code as we speak.

​> ​
Do we know whether @root and @tangle work in 2018-era Leo?

​@root and Leo's tangle and untangle commands will remain "forever".  They
are, on purpose, no longer documented, but there is nothing whatever to be
gained by removing a feature that you and others still use.

Edward

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[David Szent-Györgyi]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 2:39:59 AM UTC-5, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 11:39 PM, David Szent-Györgyi  > wrote:
>
>> I employed Leo for an oddball use case, which it addressed beautifully. 
>>
>
> ​
> Quite an interesting project.  Your post is now in LeoDocs.leo and will 
> appear on Leo's web site when it gets updated. 
>

Let me know if I can clarify that posting.  

I was using commands that were by your standards less easy to use. I was 
also structuring my Leo outline in a way that risked data loss if I did a 
Wrong Thing. As such, I did not explain the details of what I'd done. The 
guideline I followed came from a coworker who had to figure out how to 
install assortments of demanding expansion cards in computers that did not 
work unless those cards were installed Just So. My coworker's motto was, 
"If it's stupid, and it works, it isn't stupid"!

I would like to maintain the utilities that I wrote using Leo all those 
years ago - at least one of them remains useful. Do we know whether @root 
and @tangle work in 2018-era Leo?

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
off...@riseup.net> wrote:

> I came about Leo because I was interested in Learning Python and some
> forum said that Leo, not Zope, was a superb showcase for this language and
> then I found that it supported a form of literate programming, which I was
> already interesting into.
>

​Thanks for this.  They are now in LeoDocs.leo and will appear on Leo's web
site when it gets updated.

Edward

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[David Szent-Györgyi]

I employed Leo for an oddball use case, which it addressed beautifully. 

How long ago did this start, perhaps 2005? 

The job that I held then required that, without help from work 
infrastructure or from colleagues, I write tools for diagnosing and 
repairing problems with installations of a complicated software package and 
the many libraries it used. The package ran under Microsoft Windows, I had 
to ship the tools easily via e-mail, and they had to run easily, without 
requiring installation or uninstallation. 

In those less paranoid days, the flexible packaging method was a Windows 
Script Host file, in which Microsoft allowed scripts in the supported 
language of one's choice to call modules written in any other supported 
scripting language. Microsoft allowed the storage of multiple modules and 
data files in the WSH file; the format Microsoft employed for this was XML. 

The conventional approach would have been to use a commercial XML editor to 
build the file. XML editors were specialty products sold for huge sums to 
industrial combines. Commercial products were aimed at Big Enterprise 
Publishing with Big Enterprise Money, not at software development by a 
solitary programmer with a garden-variety PC and no budget. I needed to 
build my own editor, or I needed to write tools to pre-process each of my 
tools' source code and the source code for the library routines, then 
assemble the preprocessed code into the multiple WSFs. This would have been 
multiple tools, at least a preprocessor akin to the Unix "m4" command and 
an executable akin to Make, and those would need maintenance. I had no 
budget for buying software. What to use instead?  

Leo offered me a targeted IDE for Python with the ability to manage all my 
source code. It offered the PIM I needed to organize my development effort. 

I had to write scripts in Visual Basic Scripting Edition (VBS), because 
Microsoft deployed it everywhere, and because a lot of modules I could use 
were written in VBScript. With that in mind, I added support for VBScript 
to Leo's syntax highlighting. Leo's architecture made that easy. 

Each of the multiple tools that I would write would end up in a WSF of its 
own. Using Leo's @file commands for the individual WSFs would steer me to 
use a preprocessor-plus-compiler-plus-Make toolkit, so instead I reached 
for Leo's heritage in Literate Programming: I used Leo's now-deprecated 
@root command instead of the @file family of commands, and forced Leo to 
Tangle the section of the outline required to generate a required WSF. 

*That* allowed me to keep a straightforward correspondence between the 
section of the Leo file for each tool and the WSF for the tool itself: once 
I told Leo to Tangle the necessary section of its outline, I *knew* the 
resulting WSFs were correctly formatted and included exactly what I 
required, and nothing more. 

Because the the representation of a module within a WSF was XML, the source 
code for that module had to be encoded, or it had to be packaged specially 
so that the Windows Script Host software would handle it in its original 
form. I did not want to do the filtering, I wanted the outline to contain 
the unchanged file in a Leo node in a form that would guarantee its correct 
representation in the WSF. I was able to figure out how to surround the 
source code's node in the Leo outline in a few extra nodes that would allow 
me to use the source code exactly as it came. *That* made it painless for 
me to add new modules to to my library.  

In those days, Leo's GUI was built on the TKinter package that shipped with 
Python. That release of TKinter is not beautiful by any means, but its 
place as one of Python's Batteries Included meant that my entire 
development environment consisted of the installer for Python; the 
installer for the pywin32 extensions to Python; the installer for Leo; and 
the comparatively tiny LEO file that contained my tools' source code, the 
source code for the library routines, and all my notes. All that went on a 
single CD-RW, and I could install Python and pywin32 and Leo on a Windows 
computer in minutes and tweak my code as needed. 

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Matt Wilkie  wrote:

Much as I love text I'm still a strong graphic creature. My dream writing
> platform is all of the best parts of rich text & media editing fused with
> Leo's node management and scripting. Bonus points if it's webby lets me
> punt Wordpress and all the other web content management things I've tried
> and discarded (jekyll, acrylamid, drupal, mindtouch, deki-wiki, twiki).
>
> There is substantive aroma of my dream in the air right now, which is very
> exciting. :)
>

​Maybe I should appoint you the "dream runner" for Leo ;-) It's both
exciting and bewildering to me.

Edward

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Matt Wilkie]

>
> It has been almost 14 months since I discovered Leo and today I recalled 
> how I found it.
>
 
Thanks for this thread. I've been trying to recall my own path of 
discovery. No concrete memory has emerged, but it was somewhere in the 
intersection of being dissatisfied with wiki notes and mind/concept 
mapping, starting to learn python, and a multi-decade quest for the perfect 
text editor (1999-2004 
,
 
2010 ). 
Gmail says I subscribed to the Leo mailing list in 2009 with my first 
concrete contribution in August -- a Windows install recipe 
. Huh. 
I'm still doing that now!

In spite of the lengthy time since discovering Leo and bringing it into my 
permanent toolkit, it's still not front and centre for much of my activity. 
Onenote 
desktop 
is
 
my primary writing and organizing tool (the web app is ...meh) and Pyzo 
the first stop for exploratory python. Much as I 
love text I'm still a strong graphic creature. My dream writing platform is 
all of the best parts of rich text & media editing fused with Leo's node 
management and scripting. Bonus points if it's webby lets me punt Wordpress 
and all the other web content management things I've tried and discarded 
(jekyll, acrylamid, drupal, mindtouch, deki-wiki, twiki). 

There is substantive aroma of my dream in the air right now, which is very 
exciting. :)

cheers,

matt

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 11:35 AM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas <
off...@riseup.net> wrote:

​> ​
So, my path was Python -> Zope -> Leo -> Outlining for Literate Programming
-> Writing -> Pharo, Roassal -> Reproducible research and data storytelling
and visualization -> Grafoscopio.

​It's been great fun reading these comments.  I may create a new section in
the docs for them.

Edward

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

Hi,

I came about Leo because I was interested in Learning Python and some
forum said that Leo, not Zope, was a superb showcase for this language
and then I found that it supported a form of literate programming, which
I was already interesting into. I started to use it almost exclusively
for writing, not for programming, from note keeping to even draft of my
thesis, since 2005, when I found Leo, to 2015 and then I found Pharo and
Roassal and the idea of software as a graph[1] and I decided to create
my own outliner with ideas of Leo, Jupyter, Smalltalk and others. These
days I still use Leo for quick notes and probably I would use it again
to deconstruct some large script or textual program.  So, my path was
Python -> Zope -> Leo -> Outlining for Literate Programming -> Writing
-> Pharo, Roassal -> Reproducible research and data storytelling and
visualization -> Grafoscopio. Of course, some parts were traversed in
parallel and I still try to combine ideas and communities from several
places.

[1] https://vimeo.com/94724841

Cheers,

Offray

On 21/02/18 20:02, Satish Goda wrote:
> It has been almost 14 months since I discovered Leo and today I
> recalled how I found it.
>
> I was searching GitHub for the term "QWidgetAction" and came across
> its usage in Leo codebase.
>
> And then curiosity killed the cat and I was curious about Leo and read
> about it and downloaded it as well.
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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Kent Tenney]

I think I discovered Leo as a result of a fleeting interest
in literate programming. Don't recall the date, but it was
before Leo was ported from C++ to Python.

When I learned that Edward lived across town, kitty-corner
from a high school sweetheart, I was SOLD!

:-]

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:39 AM, Zoom.Quiet  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 10:27 PM, Terry Brown 
> wrote:
> >
> > I think I was using Freemind before Leo, although I'd spent a long time
>
> WoW .. in fact,
> there really some guys base Leo record notes,
> and translate into Freemind xml for export maindmapping html.
>
> > using the console based outliner hnb, which apparently has been
> > resurrected as tines https://github.com/larrykollar/tines
> >
> > Cheers -Terry
> >
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>
>
>
>
> --
> life is pathetic, go Pythonic! 人生苦短, Python当歌!
> 俺: http://zoomquiet.io
> 授: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/cn/
> 怒: 冗余不做,日子甭过!备份不做,十恶不赦!
> KM keep growing environment culture which promoting organization learning!
>
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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Zoom.Quiet]

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 10:27 PM, Terry Brown  wrote:
>
> I think I was using Freemind before Leo, although I'd spent a long time

WoW .. in fact,
there really some guys base Leo record notes,
and translate into Freemind xml for export maindmapping html.

> using the console based outliner hnb, which apparently has been
> resurrected as tines https://github.com/larrykollar/tines
>
> Cheers -Terry
>
> --
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-- 
life is pathetic, go Pythonic! 人生苦短, Python当歌!
俺: http://zoomquiet.io
授: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/cn/
怒: 冗余不做,日子甭过!备份不做,十恶不赦!
KM keep growing environment culture which promoting organization learning!

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Terry Brown]

I think I was using Freemind before Leo, although I'd spent a long time
using the console based outliner hnb, which apparently has been
resurrected as tines https://github.com/larrykollar/tines

Cheers -Terry

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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Chris George]

I found Leo when I was looking for an outliner that supported clones,
ran on Linux, and wasn't a website. I live on a farmlet on the edge of
the world and our internet has always sucked.

I took Leo up in 2007. And if there is one thing I have learned in the
interval it is that with Leo, anything is possible.

Python has a pretty robust calendar module.
https://www.w3resource.com/python/module/calendar/

Calendar events can be formatted using csv and imported into google
calendar, which puts those events into email, and onto phones and
tablets for action.

Now, I am not a programmer. I took me over a decade to even write my
first script in Leo (last week!)

Someone (he gets a lot of work here at our place) should write a plugin. :-)

Chris

On 2/21/18, Largo84  wrote:
> I found Leo when I was looking for a replacement for ECCO (anyone remember
> that program?) I used ECCO for 15 years after it wasn't supported anymore
> and the core group of diehard users finally lost hope the program owners
> would open source the code.
>
> Anyway, I don't remember how long ago that was; at least 10 years ago, as I
>
> recall. In most respects, Leo is a *major* improvement over ECCO and I
> don't regret the switch. However, the one thing I still miss about ECCO and
>
> wish there was a good Leo integration is the calendar. ECCO could print
> almost any kind of calendar, in practically any format on any size. I
> really miss that. There's no other PIM on the market that I know of that
> has that kind of flexibility.
>
> Perhaps other Leo users figured out how to integrate their calendar(s) with
>
> Leo; I haven't and would love to know how (if it's possible).
>
> Rob...
>
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Re: How did I came across Leo?

[Largo84]

I found Leo when I was looking for a replacement for ECCO (anyone remember 
that program?) I used ECCO for 15 years after it wasn't supported anymore 
and the core group of diehard users finally lost hope the program owners 
would open source the code.

Anyway, I don't remember how long ago that was; at least 10 years ago, as I 
recall. In most respects, Leo is a *major* improvement over ECCO and I 
don't regret the switch. However, the one thing I still miss about ECCO and 
wish there was a good Leo integration is the calendar. ECCO could print 
almost any kind of calendar, in practically any format on any size. I 
really miss that. There's no other PIM on the market that I know of that 
has that kind of flexibility.

Perhaps other Leo users figured out how to integrate their calendar(s) with 
Leo; I haven't and would love to know how (if it's possible).

Rob...

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