[LUTE] Fw: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Response inserted in text below MH --- On Sun, 8/6/08, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED], Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 3:09 PM Jaroslaw and Martyn I believe the difference in calculation comes from Martyn using a stiffish high twist (rather than a rope). This can possibly be pushed through quite a narrow hole, where a flexible rope would not go through. Mimmo is taking the calculation for a rope diameter as being 80% of the size of the hole, as Segerman seems to have said. Perhaps, Segerman's ropes at that time were unsmoothed, perhaps not. Then, we know that ropes have a higher degree of flexibity than stiff gut. Thus when you raise the rope up to tension, it will become thinner than its original size. So it will be thinner than 80%, perhaps around 70% to 75% (if it began at 80% of the size of the lute hole). Now, this would be what would happen, with the type of stringing that Satoh uses (Pistoys). However, Martyn seems to be using a stiff gut high twist of 1,4 that he thinks will go through a hole of 1,5mm. Have you actually tried that Martyn? Yes, I've explained previously how hole sizes are often measured (eg by inserting known diameters -often a drill bit), so a hole measuring 1.5mm by this method is certainly at least 1.5 and will indeed take a 1.4mm string (if uniform diameter and stiffish) - the trick is to also rotate when putting in - so that it's not the higher static coefficient of friction which is acting. Now according to Charles Besnainou, inharmonicity is caused by the stiffness of the string at the bridge and the nut. I simplify, but the sound waves encounter the greater stiffness at the nut and bridge end, and some wave forms are returned out of phase, and these partially cancel the initiating wave form (particularly the high frequencies) givin inharmonicity. If the high twist and the rope are at normal high tension, the result will be far worse for the hightwist, as it will be stiffer. However, perhaps you can lower the tension more on a high twist, before it loses its ability to vibrate. As you lower the tension, so the stiffness will presumably decrease at the nut and the bridge. Perhaps at a very low tension this means that the hightwist is not so inharmonic as it was previously. Indeed, the inharmonicity is less (as Segerman in fact demonstrated many years ago) MH This sort of thing can be measured. I will ask Charles whether he has done comparative studies of such strings at lower tensions. Martyn, what is the sound like of your high twist at 1,5Kg? Does it sound good. Could you make a recording for us? Have you actually tried using a 1,4 string with a 1,5 hole? I think you mistake my position if you think I'm uncritically advocating this sort of stringing, I merely wish to draw attention to it as an option to loaded and which can perhaps too easily be overlooked (some others have also made the same point). I have, however, strung a trial lute this way (a 9 course at 64cm in the old tuning C D F G c f a d g with the 9th down to C at A415). I'm not wholly satisfied with the result but this may well be because I devote insufficient continuous time to developing the necessary low tension technique (v close to bridge etc) since I use more 'normal' tensions for concert (ie mostly continuo) work. In fact my subjective preference continues to lean towards loaded basses but, as said, I think it important that we try to explore all reasonable avenues. MH PS I have no recording facilities! More importantly, even if this CAN be done, is it comfortable? Is it hard to push the string through (even if it is possible)? Would you want to do that each time you put a string on your lute? If this is not the case why did they not make slightly larger holes? Have I in any way twisted your hypothesis. I tried to state what I understand, and the possible consequences. Please let us know your thoughts. Anthony Le 8 juin 08 à 15:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens roped string. This is why tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on such historical lutes. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of 0.9 - 1.0Kg from, but as an example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top course f' tuned as reasonably high as it will go without excessive breakages allows a pitch of A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max string of diameter of 1.4mm gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/load ed/Demi-filé
Jaroslaw and Martyn I believe the difference in calculation comes from Martyn using a stiffish high twist (rather than a rope). This can possibly be pushed through quite a narrow hole, where a flexible rope would not go through. Mimmo is taking the calculation for a rope diameter as being 80% of the size of the hole, as Segerman seems to have said. Perhaps, Segerman's ropes at that time were unsmoothed, perhaps not. Then, we know that ropes have a higher degree of flexibity than stiff gut. Thus when you raise the rope up to tension, it will become thinner than its original size. So it will be thinner than 80%, perhaps around 70% to 75% (if it began at 80% of the size of the lute hole). Now, this would be what would happen, with the type of stringing that Satoh uses (Pistoys). However, Martyn seems to be using a stiff gut high twist of 1,4 that he thinks will go through a hole of 1,5mm. Have you actually tried that Martyn? Now according to Charles Besnainou, inharmonicity is caused by the stiffness of the string at the bridge and the nut. I simplify, but the sound waves encounter the greater stiffness at the nut and bridge end, and some wave forms are returned out of phase, and these partially cancel the initiating wave form (particularly the high frequencies) givin inharmonicity. If the high twist and the rope are at normal high tension, the result will be far worse for the hightwist, as it will be stiffer. However, perhaps you can lower the tension more on a high twist, before it loses its ability to vibrate. As you lower the tension, so the stiffness will presumably decrease at the nut and the bridge. Perhaps at a very low tension this means that the hightwist is not so inharmonic as it was previously. This sort of thing can be measured. I will ask Charles whether he has done comparative studies of such strings at lower tensions. Martyn, what is the sound like of your high twist at 1,5Kg? Does it sound good. Could you make a recording for us? Have you actually tried using a 1,4 string with a 1,5 hole? More importantly, even if this CAN be done, is it comfortable? Is it hard to push the string through (even if it is possible)? Would you want to do that each time you put a string on your lute? If this is not the case why did they not make slightly larger holes? Have I in any way twisted your hypothesis. I tried to state what I understand, and the possible consequences. Please let us know your thoughts. Anthony Le 8 juin 08 à 15:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens roped string. This is why tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on such historical lutes. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of 0.9 - 1.0Kg from, but as an example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top course f' tuned as reasonably high as it will go without excessive breakages allows a pitch of A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max string of diameter of 1.4mm gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/load ed/Demi-filé
Oh I may have misunderstood. I thought Segerman's calculations were with a rope, but if they were with a low twist then the results Mimmo and Segerman mention include Martyn's results at between 1,2kg and 1,5kg, Martyn is just at the higher side of this calculation. It remains that the drop in tension supposed by Mimmo relates to his considering that a rope would be used in this context, and due to the stretch the value would drop. Martyn is saying that a high twist can work at this level of tension, i.e. at 1,5kg. My question remains to Martyn, as previously stated. Anthony Le 8 juin 08 à 15:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens roped string. This is why tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on such historical lutes. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of 0.9 - 1.0Kg from, but as an example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top course f' tuned as reasonably high as it will go without excessive breakages allows a pitch of A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max string of diameter of 1.4mm gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-filé
--- On Sun, 8/6/08, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED], Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 3:09 PM Jaroslaw and Martyn I believe the difference in calculation comes from Martyn using a stiffish high twist (rather than a rope). This can possibly be pushed through quite a narrow hole, where a flexible rope would not go through. Mimmo is taking the calculation for a rope diameter as being 80% of the size of the hole, as Segerman seems to have said. Perhaps, Segerman's ropes at that time were unsmoothed, perhaps not. Then, we know that ropes have a higher degree of flexibity than stiff gut. Thus when you raise the rope up to tension, it will become thinner than its original size. So it will be thinner than 80%, perhaps around 70% to 75% (if it began at 80% of the size of the lute hole). Now, this would be what would happen, with the type of stringing that Satoh uses (Pistoys). However, Martyn seems to be using a stiff gut high twist of 1,4 that he thinks will go through a hole of 1,5mm. Have you actually tried that Martyn? Yes, I've explained previously how hole sizes are often measured (eg by inserting known diameters -often a drill bit), so a hole measuring 1.5mm by this method is certainly at least 1.5 and will indeed take a 1.4mm string (if uniform diameter and stiffish) - the trick is to also rotate when putting in - so that it's not the higher static coefficient of friction which is acting. Now according to Charles Besnainou, inharmonicity is caused by the stiffness of the string at the bridge and the nut. I simplify, but the sound waves encounter the greater stiffness at the nut and bridge end, and some wave forms are returned out of phase, and these partially cancel the initiating wave form (particularly the high frequencies) givin inharmonicity. If the high twist and the rope are at normal high tension, the result will be far worse for the hightwist, as it will be stiffer. However, perhaps you can lower the tension more on a high twist, before it loses its ability to vibrate. As you lower the tension, so the stiffness will presumably decrease at the nut and the bridge. Perhaps at a very low tension this means that the hightwist is not so inharmonic as it was previously. Indeed, the inharmonicity is less (as Segerman in fact demonstrated many years ago) MH This sort of thing can be measured. I will ask Charles whether he has done comparative studies of such strings at lower tensions. Martyn, what is the sound like of your high twist at 1,5Kg? Does it sound good. Could you make a recording for us? Have you actually tried using a 1,4 string with a 1,5 hole? I think you mistake my position if you think I'm uncritically advocating this sort of stringing, I merely wish to draw attention to it as an option to loaded and which can perhaps too easily be overlooked (some others have also made the same point). I have, however, strung a trial lute this way (a 9 course at 64cm in the old tuning C D F G c f a d g with the 9th down to C at A415). I'm not wholly satisfied with the result but this may well be because I devote insufficient continuous time to developing the necessary low tension technique (v close to bridge etc) since I use more 'normal' tensions for concert (ie mostly continuo) work. In fact my subjective preference continues to lean towards loaded basses but, as said, I think it important that we try to explore all reasonable avenues. MH PS I have no recording facilities! More importantly, even if this CAN be done, is it comfortable? Is it hard to push the string through (even if it is possible)? Would you want to do that each time you put a string on your lute? If this is not the case why did they not make slightly larger holes? Have I in any way twisted your hypothesis. I tried to state what I understand, and the possible consequences. Please let us know your thoughts. Anthony Le 8 juin 08 à 15:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens roped string. This is why tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on such historical lutes. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/load ed/Demi-filé
Dear Martyn, No, no, I wasn't talking about tension in kilograms. I wrote about equal tension to touch which is the same as to feel I suppose. It is absolutely correct that the bases would have different and lower tension than trebles. What I suggested however was that the so called low tension which means the tension of lowest bases around 0.9 - 1.0 kg (as Mimmo suggests) would stand in contradiction to the very known statements about tuning the treble string as high as it goes (at least for average lutes). General nominal tension about 2.5 kg is not a very low tension yet. Obviously the other possibility is that the guts produced than were of different quality - much more flexible. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:13 AM To: Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Equal feel is not the same as equal tension where different gauge strings are concerned: thicker strings are stiffer at the same tension and thus 'feel' different requiring a lower tension to 'feel' the same. Whilst not suggesting loaded strings are not a good, or even the best, option, let's not rush to a conclusion that low tension unloaded gut (when plucked close to the bridge) is also not a reasonable option. I'd like to see many more trying this option. On my trial lute I use the lowest basses at 1.5KG/Newtons with a general nominal tension of around 2.5. MH --- On Thu, 5/6/08, Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 5 June, 2008, 8:05 PM Dear Chris, Damian, Martin and Anthony, Unfortunately we are still missing some very important information. Finding the truth about 16/17 c. strings can be a very difficult matter because we lack proof due to its character. In terms of archeology we have only one excavation till now - the Mest string which even wasn't carbon tested. The iconographical evidence, as Chris pointed, shows rather that the string color wasn't dependent on a loading process, but probably was a side effect of marketing policies of some string makers wanting to distinguish their product (as Rubens portrait seems to suggest). It seems to me that Damian gives us a very good point differentiating dyeing and loading processes. Dyeing is the process of imparting colour to a textile material in loose fibre, yarn, cloth or garment form by treatment with a dye. Loading involves insertion of some substance into another. In case of the strings it would mean that some metal particles would penetrate deeply the gut itself, not only the surface and it has nothing to do with the colour itself. So what evidence do we have? The bass bridge holes on some old lutes that are too small to contain the proper diameter gut string. It's been suggested that this is due to the fact that the bass strings were loaded (to increase their specific weight), or the plain gut of smaller tension (diameter) was used. In the case of latter we encounter the problem of impossibility to reconcile the contradictory statements written by some old lute scholars - the equal tension of the strings (to touch) and tuning the treble string as high as it goes. This doesn't look like a very low tension. The situation complicates the iconographical evidence from a baroque period which shows the right hand position very close to the bridge. Were the strings so slack, or maybe lute players liked the harpsichord tone quality which was commonly accepted throughout Europe and which would allow them to acquire a better projection in an ensemble? How about the general tendency prevailing from medieval till romantic era to construct more and more sonorous instruments which had to involve changes in soundboard tension? The fact is we have more questions than the answers. Meanwhile I think we do better and make nice music on the variety of strings we fortunately have at our disposal. We are musicians, aren't we? Best regards Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:24 PM To: Jaros3aw Lipski; 'Lute' Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Lots of good questions that obviously haven't been satisfactorily answered. One thing that has bothered me for a while as well is that the paintings often aren't consistent within themselves. Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [ LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Well, neither do I, but this is what he says I am afraid. I understood you very well Martyn. Do check my email. I've never said that you tune your bases to 2.5 kg. But it's not a very low tension yet. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of 0.9 - 1.0Kg from, but as an example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top course f' tuned as reasonably high as it will go without excessive breakages allows a pitch of A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max string of diameter of 1.4mm gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. Incidentally, I wasn't saying 2.5Kg was a 'low' tension but that with a nominal tension of 2.5Kg, then basses at 1.5Kg wld be relatively low. By a nominal tension of 2.5Kg, I mean the generality of fingered courses (not the low basses) are around 2.5Kg. MH --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 6 June, 2008, 11:29 AM Dear Martyn, No, no, I wasn't talking about tension in kilograms. I wrote about equal tension to touch which is the same as to feel I suppose. It is absolutely correct that the bases would have different and lower tension than trebles. What I suggested however was that the so called low tension which means the tension of lowest bases around 0.9 - 1.0 kg (as Mimmo suggests) would stand in contradiction to the very known statements about tuning the treble string as high as it goes (at least for average lutes). General nominal tension about 2.5 kg is not a very low tension yet. Obviously the other possibility is that the guts produced than were of different quality - much more flexible. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:13 AM To: Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Equal feel is not the same as equal tension where different gauge strings are concerned: thicker strings are stiffer at the same tension and thus 'feel' different requiring a lower tension to 'feel' the same. Whilst not suggesting loaded strings are not a good, or even the best, option, let's not rush to a conclusion that low tension unloaded gut (when plucked close to the bridge) is also not a reasonable option. I'd like to see many more trying this option. On my trial lute I use the lowest basses at 1.5KG/Newtons with a general nominal tension of around 2.5. MH --- On Thu, 5/6/08, Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 5 June, 2008, 8:05 PM Dear Chris, Damian, Martin and Anthony, Unfortunately we are still missing some very important information. Finding the truth about 16/17 c. strings can be a very difficult matter because we lack proof due to its character. In terms of archeology we have only one excavation till now - the Mest string which even wasn't carbon tested. The iconographical evidence, as Chris pointed, shows rather that the string color wasn't dependent on a loading process, but probably was a side effect of marketing policies of some string makers wanting to distinguish their product (as Rubens portrait seems to suggest). It seems to me that Damian gives us a very good point differentiating dyeing and loading processes. Dyeing is the process of imparting colour to a textile material in loose fibre, yarn, cloth or garment form by treatment with a dye. Loading involves insertion of some substance into another. In case of the strings it would mean that some metal particles would penetrate deeply the gut itself, not only the surface and it has nothing to do with the colour itself. So what evidence do we have? The bass bridge holes on some old lutes that are too small to contain the proper diameter gut string. It's been suggested that this is due to the fact that the bass strings were loaded (to increase their specific weight), or the plain gut of smaller tension (diameter) was used. In the case of latter we encounter the problem of impossibility to reconcile the contradictory statements written by some old lute scholars - the equal tension of the strings (to touch) and tuning the treble string as high as it goes. This doesn't look like a very low tension. The situation complicates the iconographical evidence from a baroque period which shows the right hand position very close to the bridge
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE ] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-filé
Hang on a minute! I never said that Dowland said that all strings were coloured! He says some, meaning not all. My point was that as I read his comments, it's not just bass strings which were sometimes coloured but could be any string, including trebles. There might be all sorts of reasons for colouring strings. Martin Anthony Hind wrote: Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which indicates that 'some' strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin infers were colored. Since strings were known only by their place of manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna, etc. perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the bath to distinguish his strings from those of others, or, to distinguish one type of torsion from another. But to leap to the conclusion that they were loading the strings in some way is stretching the evidence to say the least. From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Le 4 juin 08 à 10:40, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear All, Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says: Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea-water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet. At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess the quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly. Martin I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, loading can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here. Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by the dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have been called so. As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy (where these recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same region from where the centre of the powerful string guild was situated (whose tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to Lyons and even Paris). If the string makers were trying out the various effects of dyeing strings, it seems probable that they would have tried these out. If they liked the effect they would have commercialized them. That does not necessarily mean that they did. However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys dyed red, are the best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do like the appearance of those red strings), but it seems more likely that the effect the dyeing process had on these strings was what made him prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time brought about by a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide was involved. I do agree that we can't just choose to give importance to Mace, and just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems to confirm what we are looking for; but there may not be such a contradiction, if we consider that there was a period of intense experimentation in colouring processes on strings, but that the results initially, were not all particularly significant. Confronted with the variable results of these experiments, Dowland might have adopted the practical method of choice that you are suggesting, for the reason you suggest. However, string colour is not the main argument in favour of the existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the most attractive, as you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a painting, especially if they all happen to be bass register strings. It is, indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded string so like that of a string in a painting. However, a more conclusive proof, other than finding a fossilized loaded string, would perhaps be finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the inventory of a string maker's atelier. Anthony Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1484 - Release Date: 04/06/2008 16:40
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [ LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
, and texts), but I do believe they were stopped probably sometime after full wirewounds caught on, and that particular part of the tradition was broken (I could be wrong, but that was my impression). However, Charles Besnaiou showed me a painting which definitely does seem to show a gut rope on a Gamba or cello, I don't remember which (he also sent it to the French lute list, so all the French members of our list should be able to confirm that). I also think there is mention of them somewhere in an early text (Mimmo quotes that text, but I don't recall where, right now). There was also mention of them in a text on artillery catapults (A. Ramelli's Livres des divereses et artificieuses. machines), of a type of rope faicte en la fa=E7on des grosses cordes des basse-contres des gros violons. So it is said here, explicitly that these ropes were used on bass bowed instruments. A close up of the corde in question in the engraving does seem to show a rope. Charles recognizes this rope, as being of the type of his stretchy toroidal ropes. We can understand why, as these ropes must stand sudden shocks. A lutist who had also been a merchant navy ship's Captain told me that this rope type was also used for mooring ships, when the weather is rough, and he mentioned that he had seen similar ones on South American harps as the lowest bass string.. And what about measurment? There was no measuring system in place until the late 19th century. All artisan activity such as violin and lute making was accomplished through the use of proportion as a tool of measurment. How does the luthier or lute player determine which strings are the right size? I don't see Meresenne's method of wrapping a string around a cylinder several times and counting the turns to be a reliable or practical tool. From some sources we know they talk about the number of 'guts' which could mean a whole casing or one or another side of a split casing. So there are many mysteries in the ancient string art that we would like to solve, and I think that aside from practical everyday experience, we need to look more closely at the inner workings of commerce. I do agree with you,here, although I fear not many will follow us in that direction. I hope I am wrong, but I think most musicians just want good strings, and are not that interested even in how they are made. (I say this because Charles Besnainou has tried to organize string making classes at the SFL, and I think three lutists turned up. I have to admit that I did not go, but not because it didn't interest me. I find it hard enough to tie my shoe laces, without nails, and feared I would look a complete fool.) So that the socio-economic history of the string trade may not grab the attention of many. Personally, I do think it is very very important, as are any scraps of information we can find about how strings were made in the past. Perhaps, we could also study the remaining tradition of gut string making in other areas than Europe. There are such areas where a trade still exists, although it is very much endangered by synthetic strings. It could be interesting to see the string types they use. Regards Anthony DD From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-file Damian Well let me say, what I actually said again, in slightly different words, but meaning exactly the same thing. The more we see that string makers were playing round with dyes, for whatever reason, including the one you put forward (which is different from that of Martin), the more likely it is that they would have come accross the dyeing process of leather, which is in fact a loading process. I did not say that thay had done so, just that it would be more likely, simply because the recipes for dyeing leather, using metal oxides, were being applied in the region at the centre of which you could find this powerful string trade guild. There is no jump to any conclusion in what I have -just said, that could be considered as stretching any evidence. If two similar types of activity are taking place in the same area, there is simply more likelihood that they will meet in some way, not certainty, just a greater degree of likelihood. That is all I said, nothing more or less. Regards Anthony Le 4 juin 08 =E0 22:47, damian dlugolecki a ecrit : Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-file I had forgotten about
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [ LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
. (I say this because Charles Besnainou has tried to organize string making classes at the SFL, and I think three lutists turned up. I have to admit that I did not go, but not because it didn't interest me. I find it hard enough to tie my shoe laces, without nails, and feared I would look a complete fool.) So that the socio-economic history of the string trade may not grab the attention of many. Personally, I do think it is very very important, as are any scraps of information we can find about how strings were made in the past. Perhaps, we could also study the remaining tradition of gut string making in other areas than Europe. There are such areas where a trade still exists, although it is very much endangered by synthetic strings. It could be interesting to see the string types they use. Regards Anthony DD From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-file Damian Well let me say, what I actually said again, in slightly different words, but meaning exactly the same thing. The more we see that string makers were playing round with dyes, for whatever reason, including the one you put forward (which is different from that of Martin), the more likely it is that they would have come accross the dyeing process of leather, which is in fact a loading process. I did not say that thay had done so, just that it would be more likely, simply because the recipes for dyeing leather, using metal oxides, were being applied in the region at the centre of which you could find this powerful string trade guild. There is no jump to any conclusion in what I have -just said, that could be considered as stretching any evidence. If two similar types of activity are taking place in the same area, there is simply more likelihood that they will meet in some way, not certainty, just a greater degree of likelihood. That is all I said, nothing more or less. Regards Anthony Le 4 juin 08 =E0 22:47, damian dlugolecki a ecrit : Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-file I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which indicates that 'some' strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin infers were colored. Since strings were known only by their place of manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna, etc. perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the bath to distinguish his strings from those of others, or, to distinguish one type of torsion from another. But to leap to the conclusion that they were loading the strings in some way is stretching the evidence to say the least. From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-file Le 4 juin 08 =E0 10:40, Martin Shepherd a ecrit : Dear All, Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says: Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea- water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet. At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess the quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly. Martin I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, loading can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here. Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by the dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have been called so. As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy (where these recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same region from
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE ] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
with you,here, although I fear not many will follow us in that direction. I hope I am wrong, but I think most musicians just want good strings, and are not that interested even in how they are made. (I say this because Charles Besnainou has tried to organize string making classes at the SFL, and I think three lutists turned up. I have to admit that I did not go, but not because it didn't interest me. I find it hard enough to tie my shoe laces, without nails, and feared I would look a complete fool.) So that the socio-economic history of the string trade may not grab the attention of many. Personally, I do think it is very very important, as are any scraps of information we can find about how strings were made in the past. Perhaps, we could also study the remaining tradition of gut string making in other areas than Europe. There are such areas where a trade still exists, although it is very much endangered by synthetic strings. It could be interesting to see the string types they use. Regards Anthony DD From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-file Damian Well let me say, what I actually said again, in slightly different words, but meaning exactly the same thing. The more we see that string makers were playing round with dyes, for whatever reason, including the one you put forward (which is different from that of Martin), the more likely it is that they would have come accross the dyeing process of leather, which is in fact a loading process. I did not say that thay had done so, just that it would be more likely, simply because the recipes for dyeing leather, using metal oxides, were being applied in the region at the centre of which you could find this powerful string trade guild. There is no jump to any conclusion in what I have -just said, that could be considered as stretching any evidence. If two similar types of activity are taking place in the same area, there is simply more likelihood that they will meet in some way, not certainty, just a greater degree of likelihood. That is all I said, nothing more or less. Regards Anthony Le 4 juin 08 =E0 22:47, damian dlugolecki a ecrit : Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-file I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which indicates that 'some' strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin infers were colored. Since strings were known only by their place of manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna, etc. perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the bath to distinguish his strings from those of others, or, to distinguish one type of torsion from another. But to leap to the conclusion that they were loading the strings in some way is stretching the evidence to say the least. From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-file Le 4 juin 08 =E0 10:40, Martin Shepherd a ecrit : Dear All, Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says: Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea- water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet. At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess the quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly. Martin I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, loading can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here. Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by the dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing with oxides (a form of loading), even
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Dear Chris, Damian, Martin and Anthony, Unfortunately we are still missing some very important information. Finding the truth about 16/17 c. strings can be a very difficult matter because we lack proof due to its character. In terms of archeology we have only one excavation till now - the Mest string which even wasn't carbon tested. The iconographical evidence, as Chris pointed, shows rather that the string color wasn't dependent on a loading process, but probably was a side effect of marketing policies of some string makers wanting to distinguish their product (as Rubens portrait seems to suggest). It seems to me that Damian gives us a very good point differentiating dyeing and loading processes. Dyeing is the process of imparting colour to a textile material in loose fibre, yarn, cloth or garment form by treatment with a dye. Loading involves insertion of some substance into another. In case of the strings it would mean that some metal particles would penetrate deeply the gut itself, not only the surface and it has nothing to do with the colour itself. So what evidence do we have? The bass bridge holes on some old lutes that are too small to contain the proper diameter gut string. It's been suggested that this is due to the fact that the bass strings were loaded (to increase their specific weight), or the plain gut of smaller tension (diameter) was used. In the case of latter we encounter the problem of impossibility to reconcile the contradictory statements written by some old lute scholars - the equal tension of the strings (to touch) and tuning the treble string as high as it goes. This doesn't look like a very low tension. The situation complicates the iconographical evidence from a baroque period which shows the right hand position very close to the bridge. Were the strings so slack, or maybe lute players liked the harpsichord tone quality which was commonly accepted throughout Europe and which would allow them to acquire a better projection in an ensemble? How about the general tendency prevailing from medieval till romantic era to construct more and more sonorous instruments which had to involve changes in soundboard tension? The fact is we have more questions than the answers. Meanwhile I think we do better and make nice music on the variety of strings we fortunately have at our disposal. We are musicians, aren't we? Best regards Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:24 PM To: Jaros3aw Lipski; 'Lute' Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Lots of good questions that obviously haven't been satisfactorily answered. One thing that has bothered me for a while as well is that the paintings often aren't consistent within themselves. Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris --- Jaros³aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Very often when I listen to such a discussion I think what the old guys would say about all this string business. In our century we have very scientific attitude towards music making. But are we sure this is all real science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can we say loaded strings are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be sure that this reddish color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder how the artist (not very scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file string with copper wire? Would he be able to show the whole structure of the wiring? Or would he mind showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting process in general and put it into the proper context (not so scientific I am afraid). Is the tone color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the period? Very often I find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red side. This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I would be more careful on deciding what is historical and what is not. Best wishes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
You mean loaded gut is impossible? On Jun 5, 2008, at 12:00 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: There is no way to change the specific weight or mass of a gut string by chemical means. If someone were to claim that there are ways to chemically change the gut to make it heavier, that would be classed as some kind of alchemy. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
Loading gut is adding physical mass by adding a substance denser than gut, not chemically altering the gut itself. Eugene At 03:45 PM 6/5/2008, howard posner wrote: You mean loaded gut is impossible? On Jun 5, 2008, at 12:00 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: There is no way to change the specific weight or mass of a gut string by chemical means. If someone were to claim that there are ways to chemically change the gut to make it heavier, that would be classed as some kind of alchemy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
In the sense that you might chemically alter gut to become heavier, yes. If I am not mistaken the 'loaded' strings are made by adding metal filings to the gut prior to the initial twisting of the gut ribbons. DD Howard Posner wrote: You mean loaded gut is impossible? On Jun 5, 2008, at 12:00 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: There is no way to change the specific weight or mass of a gut string by chemical means. If someone were to claim that there are ways to chemically change the gut to make it heavier, that would be classed as some kind of alchemy. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
On Jun 5, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Loading gut is adding physical mass by adding a substance denser than gut, not chemically altering the gut itself. If I'm not mistaken, loading is essentially infusing, which would be process similar to dyeing. Perhaps I'm mistaken. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
At 05:27 PM 6/5/2008, howard posner wrote: On Jun 5, 2008, at 1:12 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Loading gut is adding physical mass by adding a substance denser than gut, not chemically altering the gut itself. If I'm not mistaken, loading is essentially infusing, which would be process similar to dyeing. Perhaps I'm mistaken. I don't think you are mistaken; however, that still would not involve a chemical change of the gut material itself. The gut and whatever substance is used to load it remain chemically distinct. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
On Jun 5, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: I don't think you are mistaken; however, that still would not involve a chemical change of the gut material itself. Does dyeing? The question, if I am again unmistaken, was whether a process used for dyeing might incidentally increase the density/ weight of a string. As far as I can see, adding anything to the string's innards is going to increase its density, though the increase may be negligible. Anyone who uses gut strings knows they get denser from absorbing water when the humidity rises. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
Water, yes. Dye, no. Water is heavy. Dye is not. I repeat. You can not chemically alter the specific gravity of gut. Ask Mimmo. DD Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé On Jun 5, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: I don't think you are mistaken; however, that still would not involve a chemical change of the gut material itself. Does dyeing? The question, if I am again unmistaken, was whether a process used for dyeing might incidentally increase the density/ weight of a string. As far as I can see, adding anything to the string's innards is going to increase its density, though the increase may be negligible. Anyone who uses gut strings knows they get denser from absorbing water when the humidity rises. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
- Original Message -=3CBR=3EFrom=3A howard posner =26lt=3Bhoward= posner=40ca=2Err=2Ecom=26gt=3B=3CBR=3EDate=3A Thursday=2C June 5=2C 2008= 7=3A39 pm=3CBR=3ESubject=3A =5BLUTE=5D Re=3A Double headed 12c/loaded/=26= nbsp=3B Demi-fil=E9=3CBR=3ETo=3A Lute List =26lt=3Blute=40cs=2Edartmouth= =2Eedu=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B On Jun 5=2C 2008= =2C at 2=3A44 PM=2C Eugene C=2E Braig IV wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I don=27t think you are mistaken=3B however=2C that st= ill would =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B not=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B invol= ve a chemical change of the gut material itself=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR= =3E=26gt=3B Does dyeing=3F=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3ENot ordin= arily=2C not with most materials that would be called dyes=2E=3CBR=3E=26= nbsp=3B=3CBR=3EBest=2C=3CBR=3EEugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded / Demi-filé
No, no, no. This is complete and utter nonsense without any factual basis. I am sorry to be so blunt, but I will not accomodate this kind of fantasy science. DD What seems to me more feasible, as regards to the increase of the density of the gut string, is that some substances that were traditionally used in dyeing of organic materials, such as iron and copper sulphates for instance, may well have initiated the idea of loading gut with an extra mass. These salts, or indeed even more heavier ones, may well remain as purely mechanical residues in-between the long chains of molecules that constitute the fibrous part of the gut ( the main part of it which, in a way, is responsible for strength factor of the gut string). As a matter of fact the specific weight of iron and copper sulfates is about 1.8 - 1.9 and 2.2 - 2.3 accordingly, certainly more than the gut itself. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil é
Le 4 juin 08 à 10:40, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear All, Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says: Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea-water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet. At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess the quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly. Martin I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, loading can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here. Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by the dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have been called so. As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy (where these recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same region from where the centre of the powerful string guild was situated (whose tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to Lyons and even Paris). If the string makers were trying out the various effects of dyeing strings, it seems probable that they would have tried these out. If they liked the effect they would have commercialized them. That does not necessarily mean that they did. However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys dyed red, are the best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do like the appearance of those red strings), but it seems more likely that the effect the dyeing process had on these strings was what made him prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time brought about by a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide was involved. I do agree that we can't just choose to give importance to Mace, and just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems to confirm what we are looking for; but there may not be such a contradiction, if we consider that there was a period of intense experimentation in colouring processes on strings, but that the results initially, were not all particularly significant. Confronted with the variable results of these experiments, Dowland might have adopted the practical method of choice that you are suggesting, for the reason you suggest. However, string colour is not the main argument in favour of the existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the most attractive, as you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a painting, especially if they all happen to be bass register strings. It is, indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded string so like that of a string in a painting. However, a more conclusive proof, other than finding a fossilized loaded string, would perhaps be finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the inventory of a string maker's atelier. Anthony Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded /Demi-filé
Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which indicates that 'some' strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin infers were colored. Since strings were known only by their place of manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna, etc. perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the bath to distinguish his strings from those of others, or, to distinguish one type of torsion from another. But to leap to the conclusion that they were loading the strings in some way is stretching the evidence to say the least. From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Le 4 juin 08 à 10:40, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear All, Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says: Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea-water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet. At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess the quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly. Martin I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, loading can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here. Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by the dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have been called so. As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy (where these recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same region from where the centre of the powerful string guild was situated (whose tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to Lyons and even Paris). If the string makers were trying out the various effects of dyeing strings, it seems probable that they would have tried these out. If they liked the effect they would have commercialized them. That does not necessarily mean that they did. However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys dyed red, are the best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do like the appearance of those red strings), but it seems more likely that the effect the dyeing process had on these strings was what made him prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time brought about by a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide was involved. I do agree that we can't just choose to give importance to Mace, and just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems to confirm what we are looking for; but there may not be such a contradiction, if we consider that there was a period of intense experimentation in colouring processes on strings, but that the results initially, were not all particularly significant. Confronted with the variable results of these experiments, Dowland might have adopted the practical method of choice that you are suggesting, for the reason you suggest. However, string colour is not the main argument in favour of the existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the most attractive, as you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a painting, especially if they all happen to be bass register strings. It is, indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded string so like that of a string in a painting. However, a more conclusive proof, other than finding a fossilized loaded string, would perhaps be finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the inventory of a string maker's atelier. Anthony Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil�
Lots of good questions that obviously haven't been satisfactorily answered. One thing that has bothered me for a while as well is that the paintings often aren't consistent within themselves. Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris --- Jaros³aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Very often when I listen to such a discussion I think what the old guys would say about all this string business. In our century we have very scientific attitude towards music making. But are we sure this is all real science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can we say loaded strings are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be sure that this reddish color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder how the artist (not very scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file string with copper wire? Would he be able to show the whole structure of the wiring? Or would he mind showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting process in general and put it into the proper context (not so scientific I am afraid). Is the tone color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the period? Very often I find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red side. This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I would be more careful on deciding what is historical and what is not. Best wishes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil é
Le 3 juin 08 à 16:32, howard posner a écrit : On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- But surely a harpist, can look at the strings, that is more difficult for a lutist? It could be that those top strings had undergone some special treatment, which still might not be loading, but that is pure speculation on my part. It could also be a whim of the painter, looking for some sort of symmetry with the basses, or a string maker could have become famous for his red basses, and be cashing in on that fact tby dyeing other strings red. That does of course mean that just the fact that some strings are coloured, does not form a sufficient argument in favour of the loaded gut string hypothesis (loading could exist that gives no colour whatsoever, or a yellow colour, indistinguishable from gut). The fact that these red or brown strings are frequently the basses that you would need to load today, is a small argument in that direction, but it is the accumulation of such arguments, in which no one is conclusive, that may lead us to prefer this hypothesis, to the alternatives, which I have discussed, particularly when we consider the existence of short Baroque lutes with very small bridge holes. Nevertheless, the other alternatives, as Martyn has said (low tension strings, and toroidal ropes), should not be brushed aside without due consideration. Please note that when I say, should not be brushed aside, I am only talking about hypothese on historical strings. Even if we were to prove that one hypothesis was far weaker than the others, it does not necessarily mean that soundwise the solution is bad. Both Charles Besnainou and I think Satoh, have two-headed 14 course lutes. Perhaps, these did exist, but Charles told me he built his as an interesting experiment with no particular thought to authenticity. They may still be able to play superb music on these, by getting the maximum out of the strings they each prefer. I think there is an argument in favour of trying to rediscover the sound structures (string types, lute shapes, etc) around which a particular lute piece might have been constructed, especially when we are talking about a composer whose compositions search out the full potential a particular technology can produce, but that does not exclude other aproaches to the same material, including clever use of metal-wound basses, and lute shapes which allow the performer to acheive more with pure gut than perhaps any historical performer managed to do. I don't see anything wrong in that per se. Different approaches to the music are going to lead to less uniformity, and hopefully more interesting performances. Anthony Le 3 juin 08 à 16:32, howard posner a écrit : On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
I think you are speaking of the lute player, in Troyes (France) Beaux-arts museum, with uncertain attribution to Rubens. I saw many times the original and some strings are red on the painting (the original is more than human size... beautiful picture of course) I remember it is a ten course lute. (and the player wearing a sword, not very comfortable to play lute...) Next time I go to Troyes I'll have a close look to the strings... You have some more infos here and clicking on vue complete you can see on the zoom the red strings... http://www.ville-troyes.fr/scripts/musees/publigen/content/templates/show.a sp?P=346L=FRSYNC=Y If cut, paste the ling between the two V. -Message d'origine- De : howard posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : mardi 3 juin 2008 16:32 À : Lute Objet : [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
I've posted a picture of this painting (L'homme au luth) here : http://lutegroup.ning.com/profile/JMP Just join the group (free) and enjoy ! Best, Jean-Marie === 03-06-2008 15:24:22 === Lots of good questions that obviously haven't been satisfactorily answered. One thing that has bothered me for a while as well is that the paintings often aren't consistent within themselves. Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris --- Jaros³aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Very often when I listen to such a discussion I think what the old guys would say about all this string business. In our century we have very scientific attitude towards music making. But are we sure this is all real science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can we say loaded strings are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be sure that this reddish color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder how the artist (not very scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file string with copper wire? Would he be able to show the whole structure of the wiring? Or would he mind showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting process in general and put it into the proper context (not so scientific I am afraid). Is the tone color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the period? Very often I find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red side. This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I would be more careful on deciding what is historical and what is not. Best wishes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 03-06-2008 N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
The color of the string is a result of the processing of the casings making gut strings. It is a consequence of the nature of the casings themselves, the chemistry used, the Ph of the water etc. So finished strings can end up being a rich brown color, a nearly white color, and anything in between. And it means very little in terms of the quality of the string. Damian Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris --- Jaros³aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Very often when I listen to such a discussion I think what the old guys would say about all this string business. In our century we have very scientific attitude towards music making. But are we sure this is all real science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can we say loaded strings are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be sure that this reddish color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder how the artist (not very scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file string with copper wire? Would he be able to show the whole structure of the wiring? Or would he mind showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting process in general and put it into the proper context (not so scientific I am afraid). Is the tone color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the period? Very often I find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red side. This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I would be more careful on deciding what is historical and what is not. Best wishes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-fil�
Howard, --- howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... Makes perfect sense for the 7th course. ...but the top two? Those are probably the easiest two strings to find. Note that it is a ten course lute and that the artist (Rubens?) has paid special attention to render details such as the single chanterelle and then double courses for the rest. Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:11 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Makes perfect sense for the 7th course. ...but the top two? Those are probably the easiest two strings to find. Good point; I misread your first post. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-filé
If significantly lower string tensions are employed than those commonly used nowadays, a plain gut high twist bass can sound fine without requiring loaded strings (which may, or may not, have existed). Of course one needs to pluck much closer to the bridge than is the common modern fashion but seems, from paintings and early instructions, to have been much more usual from the early 17thC when extra courses were being added to lutes. MH --- On Mon, 2/6/08, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 10:43 AM Matthias This whole thread about the 12c lute interests many of us for a number of reasons. However, just for the moment, let us stay with this question of the strings on the Mest lute. I am not sure whether I have completely grasped your remarks about the demi-file strings. On the Kenneth Sparr pages, I read: On the inside of the back is a printed label: 'Raphael Mest in Fiessen, Imperato / del Misier Michael Hartung in Pa- / dua me fecit, Anno 1633'. I am not certain whether we should assume it was in its 12c form at that date, but there is certainly no reason to consider it was baroqued after 1700. In which case, I would not like to assume that the demi-file are the strings that were originally used on that lute. I am not sure if that was what you were suggesting Mathias, but demi-file are only mentioned after 1650, and don't seem to have caught on until about 1700, or later. On the other hand, the basses on the Mest lute are quite short for a 12c lute, not more than 71mm. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PID=348 As Rob Mackillop found on his 69mm Maler, pure gut basses of that sort of length are very thick, and do present serious intonation problems with the octave strings and with the trebles. It seems more likely to me that the Mest lute would have had loaded strings, initially, as the colour of these strings seem to indicate for this other 12c lute, shown on the Aquila pages you mention: http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg but when this technology was replaced by demi-file, and the loaded strings worn out, the owner at that time could have changed to demi- file, as certainly pure gut strings would not have been ideal. Some other 12c lutes, such as the Wolf, have up to 80mm (see K. Sp.), and some possibly more. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PIDF7 These models with very long basses could have been more suitable for pure gut, or for lesser quality loaded strings, although they could also have been developed for more sustain with loaded strings (depending on whether the musicans who chose to play the 12c instrument, revelled in the strong basses that the French Baroque musicians seem to have spurned, keeping, in some cases, only the small eleventh, Burwell). Indeed, Stephen Gottlieb tells me that this Mest lute-type is not really successful when strung with pure gut (although this may not be just due to the relatively short basses); and he has preferred to construct a lute with basses up to 80mm, probably so as to have strong, but not over thick, Pistoy basses, but in this case with a stoppable string length of about 67mm. This composite lute was based on the Rauwolf body, and the peg-box arrangement of a Dutch painting in Glasgow, see the photos here: http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A1849 On the other hand, I very much doubt whether such a lute would be successful with full wire-wounds, as the basses would then become far too thin. I have no idea how demi-file would be on Stephen's lute. One possibility, is that the 12c lute (with long basses) remained popular in England and Holland, just because good loaded strings were not readily available in these countries. Another possibility is simply that the taste for French music under the influence of The French English Queen, Henrietta-Maria, was rather conservative, and that a fashion created in France (according to the author of Burwell), but later spurned, was carried on in England and Holland. In England this was certainly true for the Carolean Masque, which carried on the, by then, decadent French Masque form, Le Ballet =E0 Entree, in which the Queen had performed herself, in her youth in France. We must remember that the Queen surrounded herself with French musicians, including Jacques Gaultier, who may or may not have been the inventor of the 12c lute, but certainly played one, and was influential in its diffusion. http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A112
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Low tension/Toroidal
the typical small historic bridge hole diameters and still sound good. The strings on such a lute surely had to have a greater density than pure gut., and the brown colour, while not being a proof of loading, is compatible with what we know of the loading of leather, for example. It is true that there is no absolute proof of the existence of loaded strings (as there are of demi-filé). Indeed, no one has found an old loaded string; and no one has found (so far) a text mentioning explicitly the existence of the loaded string. However, we do know that the technology was used regularly for dyeing silk, leather and other materials (there are records for that) and that in the region in which the most powerful string guild was based. they could not have ignored it. Daniela, of Aquila has recently shown that this small region of Italy was the centre of a web of string makers (similar to that for lutes issuing from Fussen, and with just as strict secret practices and rules). they certainly would not have published their recipes. It is not so surprising then, that we only find indirect suggestion of the existence of these strings. However, when Mace mentions that the best Pistoys are the red dyed ones. We should remember, that, although silk and leather were loaded with metal salts in the dyeing process of that time, the process was never called loading, it was called dyeing. I suppose the same thing could almost be said to be true about painting. When a painter use a paint charged with a metal oxide (cobalt,or what ever) I doubt whether they would have said they were charging, or loading the paper, canvas, etc with an oxide, they would still have called it painting. The facts as we know them about equal tension to touch and the size of lute holes, implies that lute strings either had a higher density than pure gut, or they were all of the sort described by Charles B.. However, paintings such as the Charles Mouton portrait, just don't seem to justify that. Of course 80 cm extensions on 12c lutes, and much longer ones on Swannecks, could have been developed to get round a penury of loaded strings, or because of a preference for pure gut (although that is not proved, it still could have been to obtain more sustain), but can you string a Charles Mouton lute of about 66,5cm with pure Pistoy diapasons and have them thin enough to pass through a historic lute hole and still be playable? I for one would rather doubt it. I understand, it is very difficult to string such a lute in Pistoy, what ever the string tension, and make it playable. I could be wrong there, but I am certainly ready to learn. Regards Anthony Le 2 juin 08 à 12:30, Martyn Hodgson a écrit : If significantly lower string tensions are employed than those commonly used nowadays, a plain gut high twist bass can sound fine without requiring loaded strings (which may, or may not, have existed). Of course one needs to pluck much closer to the bridge than is the common modern fashion but seems, from paintings and early instructions, to have been much more usual from the early 17thC when extra courses were being added to lutes. MH --- On Mon, 2/6/08, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 10:43 AM Matthias This whole thread about the 12c lute interests many of us for a number of reasons. However, just for the moment, let us stay with this question of the strings on the Mest lute. I am not sure whether I have completely grasped your remarks about the demi-file strings. On the Kenneth Sparr pages, I read: On the inside of the back is a printed label: 'Raphael Mest in Fiessen, Imperato / del Misier Michael Hartung in Pa- / dua me fecit, Anno 1633'. I am not certain whether we should assume it was in its 12c form at that date, but there is certainly no reason to consider it was baroqued after 1700. In which case, I would not like to assume that the demi-file are the strings that were originally used on that lute. I am not sure if that was what you were suggesting Mathias, but demi-file are only mentioned after 1650, and don't seem to have caught on until about 1700, or later. On the other hand, the basses on the Mest lute are quite short for a 12c lute, not more than 71mm. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PID=348 As Rob Mackillop found on his 69mm Maler, pure gut basses of that sort of length are very thick, and do present serious intonation problems with the octave strings and with the trebles. It seems more likely to me that the Mest lute would have had loaded strings, initially, as the colour of these strings seem to indicate for this other 12c lute, shown on the Aquila pages you mention: http
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Low tension/Toroidal
Anthony, I'm by no means trying to argue against loaded strings (in fact I like the idea and am almost convinced), but we need to guard against hasty judgements when there is a possible alternative. Lower tension basses mean, of course, thinner strings and thin enough to go through the small bridge holes (if low enough tension). Regarding our judgement about whether such very low tension basses strings sound satisfactory - perhaps they don't to our modern ears when compared with some other alternatives, but again I think we need to be cautious before rejecting any one hypothesis. For a trial I have strung one of my lutes (a 9 course in the Old tuning) with just plain and high twist gut using v low tension basses (c. 1.5 Kg/Newtons) and must confess I find it hard to come to terms with - the problem is it buggers up playing on 'normal' tension basses on this size lute (say around 2.5 Kg), not to mention the guitar and theorbo, so I've never had a sufficient unbroken run at it. Nevertheless, after a few days it does seem to 'improve'... Regarding equal tension across the strings, I would expect the trebles to also be at lower than modern tensions, but not at the same very low equal tension as basses but rather equal 'feel' which allows higher tension thin strings (trebles)than thicker (basses) to feel the same resistance under the fingers. MH --- On Mon, 2/6/08, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Low tension/Toroidal To: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 3:05 PM Martyn As you will probably know from previous postings, I am very interested in this string-type question, and I have given much thought to it, which, of course, is no guarantee, and I don't have the experience in lute making, and therefore, in lute stringing that you obvioulsy have, so please excuse my attempt here, at explaining what I have come to understand about this question. Initially, I was interested in gut strings, because I preferred the homogenous sound and the feel that all gut strings, including basses, can give you, and vaguely thought they must be more authentic. From this point of view, loaded strings, low tension strings, and Charles Besnainou's toroidal catapult strings (when they are all gut) more or less achieve these goals, where full wirewound basses, fail. (Someone may argue that wirewounds have other advantages, but that was not my point.) However, after reading a few papers on the subject, and discussing with any specialist who was ready and willing to do so, I became much more interested in this historic question. You mention, the fact that low tensions strings need to be plucked near the bridge, as shown by many paintings (and also by marks on lute bellies), but this does not form an argument against the other two hypotheses, I mentioned above. indeed, the present loaded Venice strings need to be played as close, or even closer to the bridge as low tension strings do. This is because the inner Venice core is very supple, and the loading introduces as sort of pendulum behaviour to the string, which does not in anyway behave like a spring, like a wirewound does. The same is fairly true of Charles Besnainou's toroidal strings, because of their extraordinary stretchability. The other clues to the historic string type are the very small historic lute holes, which seem to imply very thin string diameters, and the contradictory demands of the equal to touch string tension, which appear to have been applied around the same time that these bridge holes were made (see Dowland, Mace, etc). This leads to an enthralling paradox, which the loaded string, and the toroidal string hypotheses do seem to resolve; but the low tension string hypothesis seems to fail on both accounts. Unless, you have very long strings indeed, you just can't have a string at a low enough tension to make it thin enough to pass through a historic lute hole, and if you lower the tension of the basses, you can't achieve the equal to touch tension. I think it is not by chance that Satoh, who adopts the low tension hypothesis, loves long extension Dutch lutes. This does allow him to achieve a thinnish string diameter, and a good bass, but also shortish stoppable strings. I think some of the renewed interest in this lute type comes from players who want to use pure Pistoys, but want thinner more manageable basses. The longer the bass the thinner it can be. It is not because the low tension string set-up fails to resolve the above contradiction that it is musically a failure. I am sure, as Martin Shepherd has implied, that any method that frees up the resonance
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Are Vidar Boye Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: So its e-minor tuning, then? Otherwise, it was called French flat: C - D - E - F | G - A // B - e - a - c' - e' - g'. Of course! I forgot that French flat was Thomas' favourite. Kenneth Sparr's article has a list of tabulatures for 12-course lute. One of the items is: Reusner, Esaias, Neue Lauten-Früchte 1676. In the mannuscript additions in the copy now housed at Staatsbibliothek Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Berlin (Mus.ms. 18380) are pieces for a 12-course lute. Yes, on p. 58 (i. e. fol. 27v) starts a suite in D major. At some places, a 12th course is required for a full B minor chord. However, then standard D minor tuning is used. Even a bit earlier, Rostock XVII-54 (compiled in southwest Germany around 1670, probably) requires a 12th course at some places. Unfortunately, mention of a 12th course does not allow conclusions regarding the construction of the related lute. IOW, 12th course doesn't necessarily imply double headed lute. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello Mathias, The concept of this lute is to be able to use the same diapasons, of gut, for the lower courses. ... This is one of those concepts that reaffiirms the notion that the lute was strung completely in gut. BTW, the Mest lute had overspun bass courses (copper). Well, of course if this lute survived into the 19th century, it was strung in a 19th century manner. How do you know they are 19th century strings? I don't remember any mention of that detail. Quite opposite... The fact that it had overspun basses on it at one time is not evidence that this is how it was strung during the 17th century. What if those remnants are loose ends of 17th century strings? To be sure, I for one would always prefer gut if I could afford so. However, not even Mimmo rejects that demi-filée strings were used as basses on lutes. The stepwise increase in string length is clearly a way to use gut of a moderately thick diameter, perhaps 1.40mm +or-, to string all of the diapasons. On an 11 course lute without the extended neck, the largest string one can use, practically speaking, is around 1.75-1.80mm. To work optimally the string requires the highest torsion possible, a quality by no means universally available then or now since it requires considerable art to achieve these torsions. But strings of moderate torsion of around 1.4mm were readily available. The idea that the vibrating string length of the fingerboard strings was relatively short only supports the evidence of a design for basses of uniform diameter of moderate thickness and torsion. Hey, don't take my word for it. Run it past Mimmo. Yepp, that has been made clear by Mimmo, indeed! -- Mathias Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Reusner, Esaias, Neue Lauten-Fruchte 1676. In the mannuscript additions in the copy now housed at Staatsbibliothek Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Berlin (Mus.ms. 18380) are pieces for a 12-course lute. Yes, on p. 58 (i. e. fol. 27v) starts a suite in D major. At some places, a 12th course is required for a full B minor chord. However, then standard D minor tuning is used. Even a bit earlier, Rostock XVII-54 (compiled in southwest Germany around 1670, probably) requires a 12th course at some places. Unfortunately, mention of a 12th course does not allow conclusions regarding the construction of the related lute. IOW, 12th course doesn't necessarily imply double headed lute. I think Per Kjetil Farstad mentions that the famous picture of Ernst Gottlieb Baron shows him holding a 12-course lute. His lute is definetly not a double headed one. Are -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: The fact that it had overspun basses on it at one time is not evidence that this is how it was strung during the 17th century. The easiest way would be finding out from when the strings date. Overspun strings begin to be used in the late 17th century, but I don't believe that the lute in any of it's forms was ever strung with wound or demi filee strings. Well, it must have been. That's how the loose ends were to be found, sticking in the bridge holes of the Mest lute. Everything we know about lute construction right up to the end of the era of the lute points to stringing with gut. Why continue to design extended necked lutes of overspun strings were readily available that met the musical requirments? Those remnants of wire are not evidence of anything. Perhaps you take what Mimmo has to say about them: How do we know that open wound strings were really used in the 18th century lutes? One piece of evidence and several probative elements point in that direction: a) The direct evidence comes from the pieces of strings on a Lute by Raphael Mest. Half wound strings were in use only in the 18th century and it is hard to imagine a later addition of this particular kind of string on an instrument that had already fallen into disuse. (Source: http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm , scroll down almost to the bottom). -- Mathias Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Dear Damian, please do send answers to the list, too, so that other may get to know your opinion directly instead of reading it from my quotes. damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: It is unfortunate that Mimmo made that grand leap of illogic. His analysis is normally quite sound. But in this instance he is stretching the facts to fit his hypothesis. Pls elaborate. You haven't answered my point about lute construction. The advent of wound strings had an effect on the construction of bowed instruments, thrust pitch levels down, and even made possible instruments like the viola bastarda or the cello piccolo da spalla. But during the twilight of the era of the lute they were still making extended necked lutes. This is firm evidence that the lute was for all time strung with gut. The invention of theorbating (if that is a word) lutes was explained as solution of problems with bass strings. Players wanted to have extended bass registers, so thicker gut strings were needed. However, there's a technical limit to making thicker gut strings. So, extended necks with second pegboxes were invented so that longer gut strings could be used instead of thicker gut strings for the basses. Does that mean lute players rejected overspun gut strings once they were invented in, say, 1660? Simple answer is, no. And why should they. Did you try Mimmo's démi-file´´s on a swan neck? Not bad, eh? Don't get me wrong. I'm not here to evangelize about gut strings. That's okay with me. I'm into frsh nylgut strings 8) telling the truth about the history of the lute, and if you are serious about discovering the sound world of the lute, you have to explore the possibilities of gut strings. Well, telling the truth is a tall order, to tell the truth (sorry, couldn't resist), when evidence is lacking. At least, we have that Mest beast with its filthy overspun red-handed strings still in the bridge... Mathias - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:58 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: The fact that it had overspun basses on it at one time is not evidence that this is how it was strung during the 17th century. The easiest way would be finding out from when the strings date. Overspun strings begin to be used in the late 17th century, but I don't believe that the lute in any of it's forms was ever strung with wound or demi filee strings. Well, it must have been. That's how the loose ends were to be found, sticking in the bridge holes of the Mest lute. Everything we know about lute construction right up to the end of the era of the lute points to stringing with gut. Why continue to design extended necked lutes of overspun strings were readily available that met the musical requirments? Those remnants of wire are not evidence of anything. Perhaps you take what Mimmo has to say about them: How do we know that open wound strings were really used in the 18th century lutes? One piece of evidence and several probative elements point in that direction: a) The direct evidence comes from the pieces of strings on a Lute by Raphael Mest. Half wound strings were in use only in the 18th century and it is hard to imagine a later addition of this particular kind of string on an instrument that had already fallen into disuse. (Source: http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm , scroll down almost to the bottom). -- Mathias Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Dear Edward, interest in the topic, as Paul Beier is going to record a CD of music of Reusner on 12 course. I'm waiting with antip-p-pation! I should be keen to know, though, why Reusner. Or does music by Reusner not necessarily mean lute à solo? Just yesterday, I received a new CD by Anthony Bailes.. Old Gaultiers Nigtinghall. He plays a small Frei, with a Dutch like head, 12 course. The recording contains music of Mezangeau, Pierre Gaultier, Thomas Mace, and Bouvier. All pieces are in transitional tunings, and I like it very much. So do I! Much recommended, that CD, indeed! -- Mathias Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:53 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello Mathias, The concept of this lute is to be able to use the same diapasons, of gut, for the lower courses. That is to say, by increasing the vibrating string length step-wise, you mitigate the need to increase diameter as you go down the scale. This is one of those concepts that reaffiirms the notion that the lute was strung completely in gut. Cordially, Damian Funnily enough, that draught was not resumed with 13c lutes, swan-necks, archlutes, liuti attiorbati and the like, all of which were probably strung all-gut. Food for thoughts! What I'm pondering on, also, is whether Mace's data should perhaps be taken more serious. His lowest bass course is C. Mathias - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 11:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Double headed 12c Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Are Vidar Boye Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hi Mathias, Edward and the rest of you, you might find this article interesting: http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm I wonder how common these small baroque lutes were... Thank you for pointing at Kenneth Sparr's article, which is a must-read on this field. As for your wondering, there's no hard evidence available (except the Mest lute and the Wolf lute), as far as I can see. Most 12c double headed lutes, according to Schulze-Kurz (who wrote on The Lute and its Tunings During the 17th Century), were probably rebuilt and converted later. IMHO, Mace's tuning seems reasonable. His 1st course is G, and lutes in G more often than not have a mensur of 55-60 cm. Mathias Dear Mathias, No, I have not gone in that direction. There seems to be relatively new interest in the topic, as Paul Beier is going to record a CD of music of Reusner on 12 course. Just yesterday, I received a new CD by Anthony Bailes.. Old Gaultiers Nigtinghall. He plays a small Frei, with a Dutch like head, 12 course. The recording contains music of Mezangeau, Pierre Gaultier, Thomas Mace, and Bouvier. All pieces are in transitional tunings, and I like it very much=2E Good luck, with this. It is something I am interested in. ed At 06:59 AM 5/30/2008 +, Mathias R=F6sel wrote: Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:53 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello Mathias, The concept of this lute is to be able to use the same diapasons, of gut, for the lower courses. That is to say, by increasing the vibrating string length step-wise, you mitigate the need to increase diameter as you go down the scale. This is one of those concepts that reaffiirms the notion that the lute was strung completely in gut. BTW, the Mest lute had overspan bass courses (copper). Mathias Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Hi Mathias, Edward and the rest of you, you might find this article interesting: http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm I wonder how common these small baroque lutes were... Thank you for pointing at Kenneth Sparr's article, which is a must-read on this field. As for your wondering, there's no hard evidence available (except the Mest lute and the Wolf lute), as far as I can see. Most 12c double headed lutes, according to Schulze-Kurz (who wrote on The Lute and its Tunings During the 17th Century), were probably rebuilt and converted later. IMHO, Mace's tuning seems reasonable. His 1st course is G, and lutes in G more often than not have a mensur of 55-60 cm. So its e-minor tuning, then? Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Are Vidar Boye Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hi Mathias, Edward and the rest of you, you might find this article interesting: http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm I wonder how common these small baroque lutes were... Thank you for pointing at Kenneth Sparr's article, which is a must-read on this field. As for your wondering, there's no hard evidence available (except the Mest lute and the Wolf lute), as far as I can see. Most 12c double headed lutes, according to Schulze-Kurz (who wrote on The Lute and its Tunings During the 17th Century), were probably rebuilt and converted later. IMHO, Mace's tuning seems reasonable. His 1st course is G, and lutes in G more often than not have a mensur of 55-60 cm. So its e-minor tuning, then? Otherwise, it was called French flat: C - D - E - F | G - A // B - e - a - c' - e' - g'. -- Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
So its e-minor tuning, then? Otherwise, it was called French flat: C - D - E - F | G - A // B - e - a - c' - e' - g'. Of course! I forgot that French flat was Thomas' favourite. Kenneth Sparr's article has a list of tabulatures for 12-course lute. One of the items is: Reusner, Esaias, Neue Lauten-Fruchte 1676. In the mannuscript additions in the copy now housed at Staatsbibliothek Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Berlin (Mus.ms. 18380) are pieces for a 12-course lute. It seems like the 12 course lute enjoyed some popularity in Northern Germany. Are -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Dear Mathias, No, I have not gone in that direction. There seems to be relatively new interest in the topic, as Paul Beier is going to record a CD of music of Reusner on 12 course. Just yesterday, I received a new CD by Anthony Bailes.. Old Gaultiers Nigtinghall. He plays a small Frei, with a Dutch like head, 12 course. The recording contains music of Mezangeau, Pierre Gaultier, Thomas Mace, and Bouvier. All pieces are in transitional tunings, and I like it very much. Good luck, with this. It is something I am interested in. ed At 06:59 AM 5/30/2008 +, Mathias Rösel wrote: Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:53 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
I used to have a 12c. You can see it on David Van Edwards' site. I bought it second hand, so had no choice in model, woods, measurements etc. My understanding is that the larger instruments work better. I didn't have it long enough to get into the specific repertoire for it, and to be honest, the repertoire is not as great as that for the 11c or 13c, and it felt like neither one. But it needed someone to specialise in it to bring out the riches. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Hi Mathias, Edward and the rest of you, you might find this article interesting: http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm I wonder how common these small baroque lutes were... Are Dear Mathias, No, I have not gone in that direction. There seems to be relatively new interest in the topic, as Paul Beier is going to record a CD of music of Reusner on 12 course. Just yesterday, I received a new CD by Anthony Bailes.. Old Gaultiers Nigtinghall. He plays a small Frei, with a Dutch like head, 12 course. The recording contains music of Mezangeau, Pierre Gaultier, Thomas Mace, and Bouvier. All pieces are in transitional tunings, and I like it very much=2E Good luck, with this. It is something I am interested in. ed At 06:59 AM 5/30/2008 +, Mathias R=F6sel wrote: Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:53 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 --
[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
Thanks, Are. I will read it. But, Bailes' lute is not THAT small. ed At 07:22 PM 5/30/2008 +0200, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote: Hi Mathias, Edward and the rest of you, you might find this article interesting: http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm I wonder how common these small baroque lutes were... Are Dear Mathias, No, I have not gone in that direction. There seems to be relatively new interest in the topic, as Paul Beier is going to record a CD of music of Reusner on 12 course. Just yesterday, I received a new CD by Anthony Bailes.. Old Gaultiers Nigtinghall. He plays a small Frei, with a Dutch like head, 12 course. The recording contains music of Mezangeau, Pierre Gaultier, Thomas Mace, and Bouvier. All pieces are in transitional tunings, and I like it very much. Good luck, with this. It is something I am interested in. ed At 06:59 AM 5/30/2008 +, Mathias Rösel wrote: Dear Collected Wisdom, is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to enter that flowery meadow. What I'm interested in is - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)? - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm VSL) works better? - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when? - tunings: which one do you prefer? Any comments appreciated! -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:53 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:53 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
