subject:"Seamonkey 2.1 \-\- worst version ever"


Philip Chee wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote:


No, I don't think *you* understand.  Go to the Apple App store and do a
search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers
that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even
found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic
better than Safari.

To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only
tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store.  Go look.


Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go
educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off.

Thank you.

Phil



The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period.  The you 
don't want to swim in their pool?..fine.  Just say so.  But It's not 
impossible.  Just flat not.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-07-04 Thread PhillipJones


Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote:


No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a
search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers
that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even
found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic
better than Safari.

To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only
tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look.


Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go
educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off.

Thank you.

Phil



The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period. The you
don't want to swim in their pool?..fine. Just say so. But It's not
impossible. Just flat not.

 there is one thing that Apple doesn't allow on  the Mac. It was banned 
6 month after it came out: Active-X


Netscape communicator had a Active-X plugin. Apple ut out a notice after 
6 month saying they found Active-X far more dangerous than JavaScript or 
Even Java. (this was back at a time) when The security Java was 
questioned. back in the late 90's They did a software update and the 
plugin would no longer function.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


PhillipJones wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote:


No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a
search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers
that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even
found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic
better than Safari.

To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store
only
tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look.


Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go
educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off.

Thank you.

Phil



The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period. The you
don't want to swim in their pool?..fine. Just say so. But It's not
impossible. Just flat not.


there is one thing that Apple doesn't allow on the Mac. It was banned 6
month after it came out: Active-X

Netscape communicator had a Active-X plugin. Apple ut out a notice after
6 month saying they found Active-X far more dangerous than JavaScript or
Even Java. (this was back at a time) when The security Java was
questioned. back in the late 90's They did a software update and the
plugin would no longer function.



And that's fine by me - we don't allow Active-X on the PCs where I work, 
for security reasons.  And as a Mac user I'm pretty sure Active-X has 
never run on a Mac...but feel free to inform me otherwise.


Same for Flash in the iPad, and frankly I've considered removing Flash 
from my Macs seeing as how I use a few add-ons to block it anyway - I 
don't care about such implementation considerations other than that the 
device performs the services and functions I need/desire/require within 
the devices given environment.  All the rest is just about platform 
operating framework.


I do fully understand that in the case of SM I'm talking about a *brand 
new* product - that certainly isn't impossible or not allowed, and 
there are a whole host of non-Apple branded browsing apps on Apples 
store ranging from iOS mobile versions of Opera to iCab.  Mercury is 
garnering my attention over Atomic, and there is a Chrome-like one that 
looks pretty nice to me too.


It's just a matter of wanting to bring a brand new product to 
market...if the answer is no, then that's the real answer and I can 
live with that.  I'll just have to shop elsewhere for what I want, but 
that won't (and shouldn't) stop me or anyone else from asking for what 
they want.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-07-04 Thread MCBastos

Interviewed by CNN on 04/07/2011 18:16, Rufus told the world:

 I do fully understand that in the case of SM I'm talking about a *brand 
 new* product - that certainly isn't impossible or not allowed, and 
 there are a whole host of non-Apple branded browsing apps on Apples 
 store ranging from iOS mobile versions of Opera to iCab.  Mercury is 
 garnering my attention over Atomic, and there is a Chrome-like one that 
 looks pretty nice to me too.
 
 It's just a matter of wanting to bring a brand new product to 
 market...if the answer is no, then that's the real answer and I can 
 live with that.  I'll just have to shop elsewhere for what I want, but 
 that won't (and shouldn't) stop me or anyone else from asking for what 
 they want.

OK, let me try to parse it in very small pieces of information so you
can digest them:

There are basically two things that define what a Mozilla browser is:
the rendering features (speed, standards support and such) and the
interface features.

The rendering is defined by the Gecko engine.

Apple does not allow an iOS app to have its own HTML rendering engine.
Apps can only use the built-in Webkit engine, the same one Safari uses.
Apple won't digitally sign a Gecko-containing app, and Apple won't carry
it on the AppStore.

The only way to distribute such an app would be through alternative
stores such as Cydia. The problem is, those are a very small fraction of
the iOS userbase. So it's a lot less attractive market.

So a Gecko-containing Firefox/Seamonkey is plain out of the picture.

Let's talk then about a Gecko-less browser shell, which would use the
built-in Webkit browser. That's what is actually available for iOS, not
full browsers. Atomic is a browser shell.

To be worthy of being called Firefox/Seamonkey, this browser shell would
have to offer similar user interface features to the other Android,
Maemo, Windows, Mac and Linux versions. Otherwise it's not Firefox, it's
just something different (and lesser) with the Firefox brand tacked on.

A very big feature in the Mozilla platform is the extension framework,
which allows customizing the interface and adding features.

There's a large extension ecosystem already built. An iOS Firefox would
be expected to run the same extensions available for other platforms or,
at the very least, to demand few modifications to extensions in order to
run them. Demanding extension developers to start from scratch on
iOS-only extensions is just not the same.

The problem is, extensions run on a framework called XUL.

XUL is built into the Gecko rendering engine.

The Webkit rendering engine available on iOS does not include XUL.

The extension framework in Webkit is far poorer than XUL, in fact. There
are several extension developers on record saying that they won't port
their extensions to Chrome or Safari because these browsers lack the
features the extensions rely on.

So any browser built for iOS will NECESSARILY exclude both the rendering
features and the extension framework that define the Mozilla browsers.

So, Mozilla might make a browser shell for iOS and call it Firefox,
but it wouldn't look or behave much like Firefox. That's essentially
what you are asking for.

So I ask, what's the point of having it on the first place?




There's another, more serious point.

Mozilla is a non-profit foundation. It's not run to make money, it's run
to fulfill the mission objectives stated on its charter. Part of its
mission is to help keep the Internet open and free.

Letting a corporation -- ANY corporation -- to dictate what should be
the priorities in browser engine development goes against that mission.
So, attaching the Mozilla brand to another rendering engine goes against
those goals.

Just to stay on an issue that is real, it's happening now: Web Video
formats. Apple chose to side with the patent-encumbered H.264 video
codec, while Mozilla (and Google, incidentally) defend the use of the
patent-free WebM format.

The Webkit rendering engine in iOS does not support WebM (the one in
Chrome does, but it's different variant of Webkit).

If Mozilla made a iOS/Webkit browser shell, it wouldn't be able to
support WebM. Meaning that Mozilla would be lending their brand to an
encumbered solution, one that they are opposed to.

There might still be a Firefox in the future of iOS, though. But, unless
Apple relaxes its restrictions, it won't render pages inside the Apple
device. Instead, it would do something similar to what Opera Lite does,
and pre-render the page in external servers. There's already talk of
such a product, partly in order to offer a browsing alternative for
phones with very little processing capacity (dumbphones).

-- 
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use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.

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... Sent from my HOLMES IV.
*Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 *
Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla

Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 04/07/2011 18:16, Rufus told the world:


I do fully understand that in the case of SM I'm talking about a *brand
new* product - that certainly isn't impossible or not allowed, and
there are a whole host of non-Apple branded browsing apps on Apples
store ranging from iOS mobile versions of Opera to iCab.  Mercury is
garnering my attention over Atomic, and there is a Chrome-like one that
looks pretty nice to me too.

It's just a matter of wanting to bring a brand new product to
market...if the answer is no, then that's the real answer and I can
live with that.  I'll just have to shop elsewhere for what I want, but
that won't (and shouldn't) stop me or anyone else from asking for what
they want.


OK, let me try to parse it in very small pieces of information so you
can digest them:

There are basically two things that define what a Mozilla browser is:
the rendering features (speed, standards support and such) and the
interface features.

The rendering is defined by the Gecko engine.

Apple does not allow an iOS app to have its own HTML rendering engine.
Apps can only use the built-in Webkit engine, the same one Safari uses.
Apple won't digitally sign a Gecko-containing app, and Apple won't carry
it on the AppStore.

The only way to distribute such an app would be through alternative
stores such as Cydia. The problem is, those are a very small fraction of
the iOS userbase. So it's a lot less attractive market.

So a Gecko-containing Firefox/Seamonkey is plain out of the picture.



I got that a *long* time ago...in point of fact I knew that going in.  A 
Mozilla based app is clearly *not* what I'm asking for - I have said 
previously that I know I'm asking for a new product...one for iOS, 
containing the SM interface/feature set.  Yes - that means *new* code; 
but *same* features - tabs, Managers, integrated Mail suite - and feel. 
 SM-like is still SM, to the user.



Let's talk then about a Gecko-less browser shell, which would use the
built-in Webkit browser. That's what is actually available for iOS, not
full browsers. Atomic is a browser shell.



To me as a *user* - Atomic, Mercury, Opera Mobile, All in One browser - 
are all browsers, available from the Apple App Store.  I don't care 
how they work, I care *that* they work and that I have choices.


To me as a *coder* - having to use the built in Webkit browser means I 
have to write less code.  Which makes me happier, as I all I need do is 
design an interface based on a set of feature specifications.  I still 
end up with a browser when I'm finished.


SM, Firefox, Thunderbird and any other Mozilla  app all share code and 
to some extent features...I see having to use Webkit as no different 
from that, from a point of principle.  New code, same biz model.



To be worthy of being called Firefox/Seamonkey, this browser shell would
have to offer similar user interface features to the other Android,
Maemo, Windows, Mac and Linux versions. Otherwise it's not Firefox, it's
just something different (and lesser) with the Firefox brand tacked on.

A very big feature in the Mozilla platform is the extension framework,
which allows customizing the interface and adding features.

There's a large extension ecosystem already built. An iOS Firefox would
be expected to run the same extensions available for other platforms or,
at the very least, to demand few modifications to extensions in order to
run them. Demanding extension developers to start from scratch on
iOS-only extensions is just not the same.

The problem is, extensions run on a framework called XUL.

XUL is built into the Gecko rendering engine.

The Webkit rendering engine available on iOS does not include XUL.

The extension framework in Webkit is far poorer than XUL, in fact. There
are several extension developers on record saying that they won't port
their extensions to Chrome or Safari because these browsers lack the
features the extensions rely on.

So any browser built for iOS will NECESSARILY exclude both the rendering
features and the extension framework that define the Mozilla browsers.

So, Mozilla might make a browser shell for iOS and call it Firefox,
but it wouldn't look or behave much like Firefox. That's essentially
what you are asking for.

So I ask, what's the point of having it on the first place?




The *point* is trying to bring/maintain a consistent user experience on 
yet another platform into the SM arsenal.  I have a big fear that Apple 
is actually heading this way in the reverse (and not to my liking) 
direction - that the Lion OS is going to make my desktop look more like 
my iPad; re: full screen apps.  In that case, I find *far* less utility 
to using a consolidated suite like SM unless I can get SM Mail.app 
presented to me in a tab (which I think I have been told is on the SM 
roadmap) vice a separate window.  Interface and human factors issues, 
but issues which are going to have to be addressed at some point.


You're getting

Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-07-04 Thread Lee

On 7/4/11, Rufus n...@home.com wrote:
 Philip Chee wrote:
 On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote:

 No, I don't think *you* understand.  Go to the Apple App store and do a
 search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers
 that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even
 found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic
 better than Safari.

 To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only
 tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store.  Go look.

 Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go
 educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off.

 Thank you.

 Phil


 The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period.  The you
 don't want to swim in their pool?..fine.  Just say so.  But It's not
 impossible.  Just flat not.

The app store guidelines disagree w/ you.

http://www.cultofmac.com/heres-the-full-text-of-apples-new-app-store-guidelines/58590
2.17 Apps that browse the web must use the iOS WebKit framework and
WebKit Javascript

Can this thread die now?   Please?

Lee
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Lee wrote:

On 7/4/11, Rufusn...@home.com  wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote:


No, I don't think *you* understand.  Go to the Apple App store and do a
search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers
that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even
found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic
better than Safari.

To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only
tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store.  Go look.


Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go
educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off.

Thank you.

Phil



The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period.  The you
don't want to swim in their pool?..fine.  Just say so.  But It's not
impossible.  Just flat not.


The app store guidelines disagree w/ you.

http://www.cultofmac.com/heres-the-full-text-of-apples-new-app-store-guidelines/58590
2.17 Apps that browse the web must use the iOS WebKit framework and
WebKit Javascript

Can this thread die now?   Please?

Lee


...well, then...someone better advise Apple of it's own guidelines, 
because there's a ton of Safari competitors on the App Store.


There's also Garage Band competitors on there too...

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Lee wrote:

On 7/4/11, Rufusn...@home.com  wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote:


No, I don't think *you* understand.  Go to the Apple App store and do a
search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers
that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even
found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic
better than Safari.

To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only
tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store.  Go look.


Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go
educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off.

Thank you.

Phil



The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period.  The you
don't want to swim in their pool?..fine.  Just say so.  But It's not
impossible.  Just flat not.


The app store guidelines disagree w/ you.

http://www.cultofmac.com/heres-the-full-text-of-apples-new-app-store-guidelines/58590
2.17 Apps that browse the web must use the iOS WebKit framework and
WebKit Javascript

Can this thread die now?   Please?

Lee


...and I'm ok with the Webkit usage requirement.  Never said I didn't 
believe that.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Rufus wrote:

MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world:


Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse
with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants
you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have
to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no
consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform.


You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the
rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called
alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine
(the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same
rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If
Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla
from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated
with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident
development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor
extension ecosystem...

Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly
of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind
other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome.



...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn. They make a product
which suits my desires. So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care
about much more than that, from a user standpoint.




SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I
think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a
chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's.


The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is
based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple
won't allow Gecko in the App Store.



Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market. It's
not impossible, it's not prohibited...the SM folks just don't want
to do an iOS implementation of SM functionality. Fine, but a pity.
Atomic gets me half of what I want anyway...I'm pretty sure NewsTap will
get me the rest.

I don't think you understand, it most definitely *is* prohibited, and don't 
want shows completely no grasp of finite resources or the cost of setting up a 
distribution channel which would work outside the Apple app store, since SM 
would not be allowed, however done. Apple claims that a choice of products 
confuses users, or some such. Google for Jobs+competition+confusion or 
something, I think the speech is on youtube.


I doubt explaining this more clearly will help, your world view seems pretty 
set.

--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Rufus wrote:

MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 18/06/2011 14:59, Rufus told the world:


No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the
Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*. Big,
subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I
also realize this means a *new* product.

What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I
now have the Atomic browser on my iPad. It's as close as I can get.


The thing is, the feature set on Firefox and Seamonkey is completely
dependent on the Gecko engine. The user interface is ran by the browser
engine, not by the operating system. That's what allows writing such
powerful browser extensions, for starters. Gecko was designed from the
start to offer this functionality. Webkit does not offer it, and that's
why Safari and Chrome extensions are comparatively simpler.



I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented
within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine,
but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design
requirements and interface specifications - not the actual
implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM
implementation...(completely) new code, same look.

Biggest limitation with iOS that I can discern is file transfer...but I
can live with hardware/OS limitations, interface issues can in general
always be evolved.

You are solving the problem from the wrong end, scrap IOS, install Linux, run 
real SM and be happy. Or at least if you aren't happy you can complain in 
another group and about different things. ;-)


--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


cyberzen wrote:

MCBastos a écrit :

Interviewed by CNN on 16/06/2011 05:11, cyberzen told the world:

MCBastos a écrit :
Now and then I click on the wrong status bar icon

and open it when what I wanted was another module...


what about quitting coffee ?



Joke all you want, but those are closely-spaced 16px icons. It's not
that hard to click on the wrong one.



sorry
have you tried CuteButtons Chrystal SVG
these little icons make a little tilt when high lighted...

Care to provide a place to try, since to 2.1 add-on search function seems hard 
linked to the Didn't find anything learn more about add-ons screen.


--
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  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010



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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-07-03 Thread Rufus


Bill Davidsen wrote:

Rufus wrote:

MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world:


Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse
with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants
you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have
to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no
consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform.


You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the
rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called
alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine
(the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same
rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If
Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla
from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated
with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident
development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor
extension ecosystem...

Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly
of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind
other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome.



...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn. They make a product
which suits my desires. So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care
about much more than that, from a user standpoint.




SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I
think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a
chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's.


The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is
based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple
won't allow Gecko in the App Store.



Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market. It's
not impossible, it's not prohibited...the SM folks just don't want
to do an iOS implementation of SM functionality. Fine, but a pity.
Atomic gets me half of what I want anyway...I'm pretty sure NewsTap will
get me the rest.


I don't think you understand, it most definitely *is* prohibited, and
don't want shows completely no grasp of finite resources or the cost
of setting up a distribution channel which would work outside the Apple
app store, since SM would not be allowed, however done. Apple claims
that a choice of products confuses users, or some such. Google for
Jobs+competition+confusion or something, I think the speech is on youtube.

I doubt explaining this more clearly will help, your world view seems
pretty set.



No, I don't think *you* understand.  Go to the Apple App store and do a 
search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers 
that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even 
found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic 
better than Safari.


To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only 
tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store.  Go look.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


chicagofan wrote:

James E. Morrow wrote:

Robert Kaiser wrote:

As for me, my personal priorities have changed as stated in
http://home.kairo.at/blog/2010-10/personal_priorities and I moved on,
see also http://home.kairo.at/blog/2011-05/full_time_at_csi_mozilla -
which now makes me say things like A beta user sample of [roughly 4-5x
the release users of SeaMonkey] is too small to give us really good data
on stability, but so far it looks stable enough to ship this as a final
release. :)

I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel
good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can
do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-)

Robert Kaiser

As one who has read and mostly lurked in this group since its inception,
allow me to say that your efforts on behalf of the SeaMonkey Project are
greatly appreciated. We all have to step back now and again. But your
work as project leader leaves SeaMonkey well established to go forward.
Thank you Robert.


Same here... another long time reader of this ng and SM user, who
greatly appreciates Robert's contribution to the continuation of SM, and
helping all of us along the way.

Hope you don't stay too far away, Robert. :)
bj

2nd that, I have disagreed with Robert at times, but never doubted his efforts 
represented his best solution to whatever problem was at hand, and were not 
chosen to be the least work, other than when even the least work was a strain on 
resources.


--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-07-03 Thread Rufus


Bill Davidsen wrote:

Rufus wrote:

MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 18/06/2011 14:59, Rufus told the world:


No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the
Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*. Big,
subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I
also realize this means a *new* product.

What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I
now have the Atomic browser on my iPad. It's as close as I can get.


The thing is, the feature set on Firefox and Seamonkey is completely
dependent on the Gecko engine. The user interface is ran by the browser
engine, not by the operating system. That's what allows writing such
powerful browser extensions, for starters. Gecko was designed from the
start to offer this functionality. Webkit does not offer it, and that's
why Safari and Chrome extensions are comparatively simpler.



I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented
within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine,
but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design
requirements and interface specifications - not the actual
implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM
implementation...(completely) new code, same look.

Biggest limitation with iOS that I can discern is file transfer...but I
can live with hardware/OS limitations, interface issues can in general
always be evolved.


You are solving the problem from the wrong end, scrap IOS, install
Linux, run real SM and be happy. Or at least if you aren't happy you can
complain in another group and about different things. ;-)



iOS is just fine...it's young, and it just need to be taught what to do, 
and how to do it.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-07-03 Thread Philip Chee

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote:

 No, I don't think *you* understand.  Go to the Apple App store and do a 
 search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers 
 that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even 
 found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic 
 better than Safari.
 
 To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only 
 tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store.  Go look.

Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go
educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off.

Thank you.

Phil

-- 
Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-21 Thread chicagofan


James E. Morrow wrote:

Robert Kaiser wrote:
   

As for me, my personal priorities have changed as stated in
http://home.kairo.at/blog/2010-10/personal_priorities and I moved on,
see also http://home.kairo.at/blog/2011-05/full_time_at_csi_mozilla -
which now makes me say things like A beta user sample of [roughly 4-5x
the release users of SeaMonkey] is too small to give us really good data
on stability, but so far it looks stable enough to ship this as a final
release. :)

I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel
good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can
do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-)

Robert Kaiser
 

As one who has read and mostly lurked in this group since its inception,
allow me to say that your efforts on behalf of the SeaMonkey Project are
greatly appreciated. We all have to step back now and again. But your
work as project leader leaves SeaMonkey well established to go forward.
Thank you Robert.
   


Same here... another long time reader of this ng and SM user, who 
greatly appreciates Robert's contribution to the continuation of SM, and 
helping all of us along the way.


Hope you don't stay too far away, Robert.  :)
bj

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-21 Thread Paul B. Gallagher


chicagofan wrote:

James E. Morrow wrote:

Robert Kaiser wrote:

As for me, my personal priorities have changed as stated in
http://home.kairo.at/blog/2010-10/personal_priorities and I moved on,
see also http://home.kairo.at/blog/2011-05/full_time_at_csi_mozilla -
which now makes me say things like A beta user sample of [roughly 4-5x
the release users of SeaMonkey] is too small to give us really good data
on stability, but so far it looks stable enough to ship this as a final
release. :)

I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel
good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can
do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-)

Robert Kaiser

As one who has read and mostly lurked in this group since its inception,
allow me to say that your efforts on behalf of the SeaMonkey Project are
greatly appreciated. We all have to step back now and again. But your
work as project leader leaves SeaMonkey well established to go forward.
Thank you Robert.


Same here... another long time reader of this ng and SM user, who
greatly appreciates Robert's contribution to the continuation of SM, and
helping all of us along the way.

Hope you don't stay too far away, Robert. :)


Thirded.

This is like being an NHL goalie -- most of the fans don't notice or say 
anything unless you foul up. But try sending the team out with a sixth 
attacker instead and see how far they get.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-21 Thread NoOp

On 06/20/2011 01:06 PM, James E. Morrow wrote:
 Robert Kaiser wrote:
...
 I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel
 good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can
 do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-)

 Robert Kaiser

 
 As one who has read and mostly lurked in this group since its inception, 
 allow me to say that your efforts on behalf of the SeaMonkey Project are 
 greatly appreciated. We all have to step back now and again. But your 
 work as project leader leaves SeaMonkey well established to go forward. 
 Thank you Robert.
 

+many 1's :-)
Thanks Kairo. Be well, happy, and healthy (physically  mentally).

Gary

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-20 Thread cyberzen


MCBastos a écrit :

Interviewed by CNN on 16/06/2011 05:11, cyberzen told the world:

MCBastos a écrit :
Now and then I click on the wrong status bar icon

and open it when what I wanted was another module...


what about quitting coffee ?



Joke all you want, but those are closely-spaced 16px icons. It's not
that hard to click on the wrong one.



sorry
have you tried CuteButtons Chrystal SVG
these little icons make a little tilt when high lighted...

--
cyberzen
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-20 Thread James E. Morrow


Robert Kaiser wrote:

Michael Hannon schrieb:

Robert Kaiser wrote:

In any case, happy to not be in charge any more, makes laughing about
this much easier than in earlier times.


Who's in charge now?


The collective of the SeaMonkey Council (of which I'm remaining a part,
but just as one of multiple people, not as the project coordinator).


I'm sorry to hear you've stopped running the project. Thanks for your
work on the browser over the past few years (not to mention LCARStrek!).


As a note, LCARStrek will continue to be developed (but now for both
SeaMonkey and Firefox). ;-)

As for me, my personal priorities have changed as stated in
http://home.kairo.at/blog/2010-10/personal_priorities and I moved on,
see also http://home.kairo.at/blog/2011-05/full_time_at_csi_mozilla -
which now makes me say things like A beta user sample of [roughly 4-5x
the release users of SeaMonkey] is too small to give us really good data
on stability, but so far it looks stable enough to ship this as a final
release. :)

I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel
good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can
do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-)

Robert Kaiser



As one who has read and mostly lurked in this group since its inception, 
allow me to say that your efforts on behalf of the SeaMonkey Project are 
greatly appreciated. We all have to step back now and again. But your 
work as project leader leaves SeaMonkey well established to go forward. 
Thank you Robert.


--
James E. Morrow
 Email to: jamesemor...@email.com
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-19 Thread Rufus


Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

On 6/19/2011 12:00 AM, Rufus wrote:

Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote:


I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented
within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko
engine,
but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design
requirements and interface specifications - not the actual
implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM
implementation...(completely) new code, same look.


I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly
pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And
pay for any dev kits I need to do the work.



That's only fair, and I've thought about attempting it myself...but if I
do and am successful, I'll of course be keeping all the money...

...and I'd expect you to do the same.



Of course, IFF you hired me with a contract you could draw up and state
that all my work on that is copyright you, etc. such that you could make
the millions and I only get whatever the contract says :-)



...then the lawyers would get all the money.


Anyway, this is off topic now.



Yup.

--
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-19 Thread Keith Whaley


Keith Whaley wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote:


I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented
within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko
engine,
but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design
requirements and interface specifications - not the actual
implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM
implementation...(completely) new code, same look.




I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly
pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And
pay for any dev kits I need to do the work.

I will attempt this task.

Beyond that I don't think I (or anyone here) would have time or the
ability to do it.




Time, maybe. Ability? I'm certain they do. At least I'm certain the
development team does.


I may also require you to hire additional people to make this possible
(since I know very little about the mail side of things)




That's only fair, and I've thought about attempting it myself...but if I
do and am successful, I'll of course be keeping all the money...

...and I'd expect you to do the same.



Aha. What money? SM is free of cost at the moment. If they're expecting
to develop another SM from scratch for iOS style products, you're also
going to have to locate a pretty rich donor, to pay salaries and such
things.

And in the end, you're going to expect Honda style reliability and
usefulness...which MUST come from the team who does the job anew. Anew
because what you want doesn't yet exist.

keith


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-19 Thread Keith Whaley


Keith Whaley wrote:

Nice analogy, MC...

keith whaley

MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 18/06/2011 14:59, Rufus told the world:


No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the
Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*. Big,
subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I
also realize this means a *new* product.

What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I
now have the Atomic browser on my iPad. It's as close as I can get.


The thing is, the feature set on Firefox and Seamonkey is completely
dependent on the Gecko engine. The user interface is ran by the browser
engine, not by the operating system. That's what allows writing such
powerful browser extensions, for starters. Gecko was designed from the
start to offer this functionality. Webkit does not offer it, and that's
why Safari and Chrome extensions are comparatively simpler.

What you are asking for would be an entirely new product, built from the
ground up, reusing very little existing Mozilla/Seamonkey code, made to
mimic superficially the Seamonkey features. I say superficially
because, even if it looked like Seamonkey, it would be unable to run
extensions -- because those extensions depend on Gecko to run.

What you are doing, essentially, is going to Honda and suggesting they
should build a Civic -- but using a Ford engine, Ford transmission and
Ford unibody, with only surface bodywork and upholstering by Honda. And
of course, it should *still* allow the installation of engine tuning
kits which were designed for a Honda engine, because those engines are
one of the nice things about Hondas...

Would you be surprised if Honda considered your request could hardly be
called a Honda and therefore they weren't interested in wasting
engineering talent developing it, while there were real Hondas to be
developed?





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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-19 Thread Rufus


Keith Whaley wrote:

Keith Whaley wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote:


I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as
implemented
within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko
engine,
but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design
requirements and interface specifications - not the actual
implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM
implementation...(completely) new code, same look.




I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly
pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And
pay for any dev kits I need to do the work.

I will attempt this task.

Beyond that I don't think I (or anyone here) would have time or the
ability to do it.




Time, maybe. Ability? I'm certain they do. At least I'm certain the
development team does.


I may also require you to hire additional people to make this possible
(since I know very little about the mail side of things)




That's only fair, and I've thought about attempting it myself...but if I
do and am successful, I'll of course be keeping all the money...

...and I'd expect you to do the same.



Aha. What money? SM is free of cost at the moment. If they're expecting
to develop another SM from scratch for iOS style products, you're also
going to have to locate a pretty rich donor, to pay salaries and such
things.



They may give it away for free, but I still suspect there is some sort 
of revenue stream somewhere for someone/thing/enterprise.  I'm not 
really sure how that works; someone here explained it to me once, but 
I've since lost the bubble on what was said - something similar to RIAA 
royalties based on site hits for specific browsers...but I won't swear 
to that.  In any event, the process has to be self sustaining in some 
regard.



And in the end, you're going to expect Honda style reliability and
usefulness...which MUST come from the team who does the job anew. Anew
because what you want doesn't yet exist.

keith




Yes, but I could say the same about any product.  Everything starts from 
nothing, with nothing to start with but an idea.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-18 Thread MCBastos


Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 22:55, PhillipJones told the world:


You do know Apple is now selling Unlocked iPhones Just announced last week.


Unlocked means not tied to a phone carrier. But it is still tied to 
the Apple store, and subject to Apple's rules. It's not factory-jailbroken.


--
MCBastos

This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized 
use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.


-=-=-
... Sent from my Blueberry.
*Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 *
Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-18 Thread MCBastos


Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 22:34, d...@kd4e.com told the world:


How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix?


I don't have any personal experience with Midori, but I understand from 
the website that it depends on a separate standard installation of 
Webkit, instead of bundling their own tweaked version. So it is, in 
general terms, a browser shell. I didn't find any information regarding 
versions for iOS, but if they do make one, that version is clearly 
just a browser shell, since they are unable to make any sort of 
changes to the engine.


On other platforms, though, there's still the theoretical possibility of 
the Midori team growing unhappy with some aspects of Webkit and deciding 
to fork their own version. So, on these platforms Midori has at least 
the *potential* to become a full browser.

--
MCBastos

This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized 
use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.


-=-=-
... Sent from my BBC Micro.
*Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 *
Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-18 Thread Paul B. Gallagher


d...@kd4e.com wrote:


If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko
browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply
not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was
interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software,
after all.


How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix?


I thought she was a violinist...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_Gotō

But when I looked it up, I was amazed at how many different things it meant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori

--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world:


Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse
with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants
you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have
to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no
consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform.


You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the
rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called
alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine
(the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same
rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If
Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla
from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated
with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident
development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor
extension ecosystem...

Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly
of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind
other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome.



...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn.  They make a product 
which suits my desires.  So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care 
about much more than that, from a user standpoint.





SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I
think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a
chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's.


The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is
based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple
won't allow Gecko in the App Store.



Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market.  It's 
not impossible, it's not prohibited...the SM folks just don't want 
to do an iOS implementation of SM functionality.  Fine, but a pity. 
Atomic gets me half of what I want anyway...I'm pretty sure NewsTap will 
get me the rest.



So?..big deal. All depends on what you're after. Personally, I'd go
through the App Store on an iOS browser like other are doing.


If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko
browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply
not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was
interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software,
after all.




That's where you're seriously missing the mark.  SM has things in common 
with Firefox - probably even shares code and gets lead around by the 
nose in that regard...but nobody has an issue with that?


Same principle - iOS has it's own set of core code - big deal.  Somebody 
has to play by the rules to develop to that...big deal.  The folks that 
wrote Atomic did it, are selling it, and I don't care what it's based 
on from a user standpoint - it has a *far* richer feature set than iOS 
Safari, and operates in a manner more like what I do on my desktop.  So 
that's what I choose to use on *my* iPad.


And if anyone wanted to give it away for free, they certainly have that 
option in the Apple App Store - I've downloaded a whole host of full 
featured free apps, and I've only just scratched the surface.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


PhillipJones wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Robert Kaiser wrote:

Rufus schrieb:

It's not really a case of Apple not allowing it - it's more a case of
developers embracing, stepping up, and coding. There are a number of
alternative browsers for iPad, the most popular (I can see why) being
the Atomic browser - somewhat SM-like, and far more feature-rich than
Safari on iOS.


None of them is a browser by itself. Apple does NOT allow ANY software
in their store that competes with some software they are providing with
the device theirselves. All those alternatives are just Safari with a
different costume, i.e. some other user interface around it.



...I dunno. I guess we're arguing coding semantics. Atomic is certainly
a browser to me, because it browses. And it's functionality and
feature set are vastly different from Safari, it certainly competes with
Safari, I got it from the Apple App Store for 99 cents...and there are
others there. So I don't buy your premise one bit as stated.

Yes, it's platform-specific and uses some platform specific code, but so
do a whole host of other software. I don't have an issue with that from
any standpoint.


But again, the way iOS works I find *far* less utility in the suite
concept when working on my iPad


Well, I'm reasonably sure that communication methods that don't run
inside the browser will be mostly dying out in the next years. But then,
that's just my opinion.

Robert Kaiser




The iPad is certainly the first device I've bought in a very long time
that is actually changing the way I work. I'm sort of dubious about the
approaching Lion OS...I'm not sure I'm going to like some of it's more
iOS-like implementations on my desktop, but then again I'm not sure I
won't. Everything changes...what matters more is still being able to
make choices which suits the individual user. More products, more better.


You are aware the only way to get Lion is have a Very good Internet
Connection Perhaps FOIS or better. It will not be sold on DVD. It will
only cost $29.00.



Yes, I am, and I do...my average daily download speed is around 11 Mbps. 
 But I am a bit peeved about the new delivery scheme...but it seems to 
be a growing trend with just about everything electronic these days - my 
stereo receiver, my TV, my blue-ray player, all want a broadband 
connection for firmware update.



Unfortunately with My puny DSL it will take at least 24 hours to download.

I, and a lot of other have protested on the Apple newsgroups. And on the
Feedback Channels are getting red hot to.



I can believe that, and I have to agree with the discontent even though 
it won't really affect me as far as getting the update goes.  But I'm 
still undecided as to if I *really* want it.



In my Area, High speed anything is just not available. Cable is slow DSL
is Slow and a lot of the people in my area are using Dial up. They just
can't afford otherwise.



Where I live the cable ISP makes DSL look like dialup.  DSL service 
speed here is very dependent on how close you live to the main Verizon 
hub - all of our cable infrastructure was swapped to fiber about ten 
years ago - I specifically waited to get on the net until I had fiber 
laid in my neighborhood and could get a cable modem.  Been happy ever since.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-18 Thread Robert Kaiser


Rufus schrieb:

...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn. They make a product
which suits my desires. So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care
about much more than that, from a user standpoint.


So then you have no right to want anything their app store doesn't 
provide. They don't give you that right, after all.



Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market. It's
not impossible, it's not prohibited...


Again, you have not understood anything. Using our technology is 
prohibited and therefore impossible on their products, and that makes it 
impossible to port our software there. So we don't even think about if 
it would be useful. Even this discussion here is a waste of our precious 
developer time.



That's where you're seriously missing the mark.


No, you are missing the mark. But as you don't want to understand, I'll 
end this discussion and turn to doing things that makes sense.


Robert Kaiser

--
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arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the 
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Re: Midori on Apple Devices? [Was: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever]

2011-06-18 Thread d...@kd4e.com


Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

d...@kd4e.com wrote:


If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko
browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply
not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was
interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software,
after all.


How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix?


I thought she was a violinist...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_Gotō

But when I looked it up, I was amazed at how many different things it
meant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori


BRAVO! :-)

Nice to have a little fun here amidst the often-serious
business of coding and strategic development decisions.


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Re: Midori on Apple Devices? [Was: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever]

2011-06-18 Thread d...@kd4e.com


 MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 22:34, d...@kd4e.com told the world:


How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix?


I don't have any personal experience with Midori, but I understand from
the website that it depends on a separate standard installation of
Webkit, instead of bundling their own tweaked version. So it is, in
general terms, a browser shell. I didn't find any information regarding
versions for iOS, but if they do make one, that version is clearly
just a browser shell, since they are unable to make any sort of
changes to the engine.

On other platforms, though, there's still the theoretical possibility of
the Midori team growing unhappy with some aspects of Webkit and deciding
to fork their own version. So, on these platforms Midori has at least
the *potential* to become a full browser.


Thanks for the clarification!



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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-18 Thread Philip Chee

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:55:15 -0400, PhillipJones wrote:

 If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko
 browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply
 not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was
 interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software,
 after all.

 You do know Apple is now selling Unlocked iPhones Just announced last week.

You know unlocked != jailbroken
right?

Phil

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-18 Thread Philip Chee

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 03:18:06 -0400, Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
 d...@kd4e.com wrote:
 
 If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko
 browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply
 not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was
 interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software,
 after all.

 How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix?
 
 I thought she was a violinist...
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_Gotō
 
 But when I looked it up, I was amazed at how many different things it meant:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori

Midori (Pretty Bird) is also a popular female name in Japan. Most of the
cites on that wiki page are people with Midori as their first name.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Robert Kaiser wrote:

Rufus schrieb:

...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn. They make a product
which suits my desires. So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care
about much more than that, from a user standpoint.


So then you have no right to want anything their app store doesn't
provide. They don't give you that right, after all.



No, I have the right to make requests of suppliers to build/supply 
anything I want - just like with any product, and the supplier has the 
right to decline or accept my request just like with any product.  I 
refuse to believe it's impossible or prohibited because other people 
are doing it.



Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market. It's
not impossible, it's not prohibited...


Again, you have not understood anything. Using our technology is
prohibited and therefore impossible on their products, and that makes it
impossible to port our software there. So we don't even think about if
it would be useful. Even this discussion here is a waste of our precious
developer time.



No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the 
Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*.  Big, 
subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I 
also realize this means a *new* product.


What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I 
now have the Atomic browser on my iPad.  It's as close as I can get.



That's where you're seriously missing the mark.


No, you are missing the mark. But as you don't want to understand, I'll
end this discussion and turn to doing things that makes sense.

Robert Kaiser



No, I understand...I just refuse to accept that it's not possible.  I 
*will* accept that you don't want to do it.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Philip Chee wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 03:18:06 -0400, Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

d...@kd4e.com wrote:


If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko
browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply
not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was
interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software,
after all.


How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix?


I thought she was a violinist...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_Gotō

But when I looked it up, I was amazed at how many different things it meant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori


Midori (Pretty Bird) is also a popular female name in Japan. Most of the
cites on that wiki page are people with Midori as their first name.




...it's also a liquor.

http://www.midori-world.com/index2.html

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-18 Thread Paul B. Gallagher


Philip Chee wrote:


On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 03:18:06 -0400, Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

d...@kd4e.com wrote:


If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a
Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices.
There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest
to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it --
Mozilla is fully free software, after all.


How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix?


I thought she was a violinist...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_Gotō

But when I looked it up, I was amazed at how many different things
it meant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori


Midori (Pretty Bird) is also a popular female name in Japan. Most of
the cites on that wiki page are people with Midori as their first
name.


Sure, I was aware of that (I did read the linked pages). But AFAIK it's 
rare among Japanese to go by the first name alone -- the skater Midori 
Itō, for example, uses her last name as well.


I have seen people in the performing arts do this, such as the Korean 
singer/actor 알렉스 (Alex, birth name 추헌곤 = Chu Hungon). So in that 
sense, Midori's not such an exception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Chu

--
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--
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-18 Thread MCBastos


Interviewed by CNN on 18/06/2011 14:59, Rufus told the world:


No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the
Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*.  Big,
subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I
also realize this means a *new* product.

What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I
now have the Atomic browser on my iPad.  It's as close as I can get.


The thing is, the feature set on Firefox and Seamonkey is completely 
dependent on the Gecko engine. The user interface is ran by the browser 
engine, not by the operating system. That's what allows writing such 
powerful browser extensions, for starters. Gecko was designed from the 
start to offer this functionality. Webkit does not offer it, and that's 
why Safari and Chrome extensions are comparatively simpler.


What you are asking for would be an entirely new product, built from the 
ground up, reusing very little existing Mozilla/Seamonkey code, made to 
mimic superficially the Seamonkey features. I say superficially 
because, even if it looked like Seamonkey, it would be unable to run 
extensions -- because those extensions depend on Gecko to run.


What you are doing, essentially, is going to Honda and suggesting they 
should build a Civic -- but using a Ford engine, Ford transmission and 
Ford unibody, with only surface bodywork and upholstering by Honda. And 
of course, it should *still* allow the installation of engine tuning 
kits which were designed for a Honda engine, because those engines are 
one of the nice things about Hondas...


Would you be surprised if Honda considered your request could hardly be 
called a Honda and therefore they weren't interested in wasting 
engineering talent developing it, while there were real Hondas to be 
developed?


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 18/06/2011 14:59, Rufus told the world:


No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the
Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*. Big,
subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I
also realize this means a *new* product.

What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I
now have the Atomic browser on my iPad. It's as close as I can get.


The thing is, the feature set on Firefox and Seamonkey is completely
dependent on the Gecko engine. The user interface is ran by the browser
engine, not by the operating system. That's what allows writing such
powerful browser extensions, for starters. Gecko was designed from the
start to offer this functionality. Webkit does not offer it, and that's
why Safari and Chrome extensions are comparatively simpler.



I find that hard to believe as stated.  The feature set as implemented 
within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine, 
but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design 
requirements and interface specifications - not the actual 
implementation in code to accomplish the task.  I like the SM 
implementation...(completely) new code, same look.


Biggest limitation with iOS that I can discern is file transfer...but I 
can live with hardware/OS limitations, interface issues can in general 
always be evolved.


The Atomic browser is about as close to SM as one can get for iOS. 
Tabbed browsing as opposed to opening new full screen, rotable pages 
like Safari (which leaves me thinking I won't like Full Screen Apps in 
Lion...), better user bookmark sorting ability, limited user 
theme-like (color - with a few strokes I could make it look even more 
like SM Modern in that respect) selection ability, a user definable 
Personal Toolbar...none of these are Safari features and Atomic has far 
more pref settings available to the user.  So it's been done...to an 
extent.  What's missing from Atomic for me as a SM user is an integrated 
e-mail/usenet client.


But I've *just* grabbed NewsTap and it's extremely full-featured and 
looks to be just the ticket...so I may actually have what I want now, 
other than that the two (Atomic and NewsTap) aren't integrated.  but as 
I've mentioned before iOS is beginning to change my mind about the 
utility of a suite - that may also hold with Lion...I'll have to wait 
and see what Lion actually does.  Lion's full screen app implementation 
may drive me to using the Safari/Thunderbird combination.



What you are asking for would be an entirely new product, built from the
ground up, reusing very little existing Mozilla/Seamonkey code, made to
mimic superficially the Seamonkey features. I say superficially
because, even if it looked like Seamonkey, it would be unable to run
extensions -- because those extensions depend on Gecko to run.



Yes - I'm aware of that and have said so.  In fact, I would expect an 
iOS implementation would/could use *none* of the existing SM *code*, but 
that doesn't mean it couldn't behave and or look like SM and still *be* 
SM...I'd call it PadMonkey, myself...just for marketing purposes, and 
to distinguish it.



What you are doing, essentially, is going to Honda and suggesting they
should build a Civic -- but using a Ford engine, Ford transmission and
Ford unibody, with only surface bodywork and upholstering by Honda. And
of course, it should *still* allow the installation of engine tuning
kits which were designed for a Honda engine, because those engines are
one of the nice things about Hondas...



Yeah...that's done all the time.  In point of fact, Honda are presently 
developing jet engines and are now looking for someone to build other 
than Hondajets to put them in as a competitive alternative to the 
Williams engine.  Epiphone builds Les Paul and other Gibson designed 
guitars, GM rebrands common designs and parts, US plants build Toyotas, 
a lot of the parts on my Harley are made overseas now and it's still an 
American motorcycle.  That's how open markets work...


If the SM Team wrote it, it would *be* SM if that's what the team wanted 
it to be.  Just SM for and to the constraints of another platform.



Would you be surprised if Honda considered your request could hardly be
called a Honda and therefore they weren't interested in wasting
engineering talent developing it, while there were real Hondas to be
developed?



Boeing, Airbus, and a whole host of other jets are delivered with GE, 
Rolls Royce, SNECMA, etc. engines, and all the companies make 
money...none of them really care what the final product is called.  They 
all get their cut - and that's really what it's all about.  I'm still 
trying to figure out how the SM team generates revenue...they must 
somehow/where, or they wouldn't be doing what they do.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-18 Thread Justin Wood (Callek)


On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote:


I find that hard to believe as stated.  The feature set as implemented
within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine,
but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design
requirements and interface specifications - not the actual
implementation in code to accomplish the task.  I like the SM
implementation...(completely) new code, same look.


I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly 
pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And 
pay for any dev kits I need to do the work.


I will attempt this task.

Beyond that I don't think I (or anyone here) would have time or the 
ability to do it.


I may also require you to hire additional people to make this possible 
(since I know very little about the mail side of things)


--
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote:


I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented
within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine,
but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design
requirements and interface specifications - not the actual
implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM
implementation...(completely) new code, same look.


I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly
pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And
pay for any dev kits I need to do the work.

I will attempt this task.

Beyond that I don't think I (or anyone here) would have time or the
ability to do it.



Time, maybe.  Ability?  I'm certain they do.  At least I'm certain the 
development team does.



I may also require you to hire additional people to make this possible
(since I know very little about the mail side of things)



That's only fair, and I've thought about attempting it myself...but if I 
do and am successful, I'll of course be keeping all the money...


...and I'd expect you to do the same.

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-18 Thread Justin Wood (Callek)


On 6/19/2011 12:00 AM, Rufus wrote:

Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote:


I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented
within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine,
but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design
requirements and interface specifications - not the actual
implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM
implementation...(completely) new code, same look.


I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly
pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And
pay for any dev kits I need to do the work.



That's only fair, and I've thought about attempting it myself...but if I
do and am successful, I'll of course be keeping all the money...

...and I'd expect you to do the same.



Of course, IFF you hired me with a contract you could draw up and state 
that all my work on that is copyright you, etc. such that you could make 
the millions and I only get whatever the contract says :-)


Anyway, this is off topic now.

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-17 Thread MCBastos


Interviewed by CNN on 16/06/2011 22:44, Rufus told the world:


That's simply not true.  I have the Atomic browser installed on my iPad
and like it...and there are others.


Atomic is not a full browser either. It does not include its own 
rendering engine, but uses the iOS Safari one. Essentially, it's Safari 
with a different skin.


Let me repeat: Apple does not allow another rendering engine on iOS. You 
won't get a Gecko browser, like Firefox or Seamonkey, there. You won't 
even get a different spin of Webkit, such as Google Chrome.




Developing any sort of application which overlaps in functionality
Apple's official ones is chancy at best. You have no idea if they will
allow the app to be distributed, or if your investment is going to go
down the drain.



...as in any business venture.


Failure to make a profit because you can't convince people to pay for 
your product is a normal risk. Failure to make a profit because you are 
not allowed to sell your product for unclear reasons is not a normal risk.




Yes.  But there are alternatives to distribution other than the App
Store...it would take some thinking, but I can see a way.


Only for jailbroken devices, which are a minority.

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-17 Thread Rufus


MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 16/06/2011 22:44, Rufus told the world:


That's simply not true. I have the Atomic browser installed on my iPad
and like it...and there are others.


Atomic is not a full browser either. It does not include its own
rendering engine, but uses the iOS Safari one. Essentially, it's Safari
with a different skin.



I think you need to look again.  Not only does Atomic work and get the 
job done, it also does tabs.  Safari does not do tabs on the iPad.



Let me repeat: Apple does not allow another rendering engine on iOS. You
won't get a Gecko browser, like Firefox or Seamonkey, there. You won't
even get a different spin of Webkit, such as Google Chrome.



Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood.  If I can browse 
with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me.  If Apple wants 
you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have 
to write.  The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no 
consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform.





Developing any sort of application which overlaps in functionality
Apple's official ones is chancy at best. You have no idea if they will
allow the app to be distributed, or if your investment is going to go
down the drain.



...as in any business venture.


Failure to make a profit because you can't convince people to pay for
your product is a normal risk. Failure to make a profit because you are
not allowed to sell your product for unclear reasons is not a normal risk.



SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I 
think folks would pay that.  But if you're not even up to taking a 
chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's.





Yes. But there are alternatives to distribution other than the App
Store...it would take some thinking, but I can see a way.


Only for jailbroken devices, which are a minority.



So?..big deal.  All depends on what you're after.  Personally, I'd go 
through the App Store on an iOS browser like other are doing.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-17 Thread Robert Kaiser


Rufus schrieb:

It's not really a case of Apple not allowing it - it's more a case of
developers embracing, stepping up, and coding. There are a number of
alternative browsers for iPad, the most popular (I can see why) being
the Atomic browser - somewhat SM-like, and far more feature-rich than
Safari on iOS.


None of them is a browser by itself. Apple does NOT allow ANY software 
in their store that competes with some software they are providing with 
the device theirselves. All those alternatives are just Safari with a 
different costume, i.e. some other user interface around it.



But again, the way iOS works I find *far* less utility in the suite
concept when working on my iPad


Well, I'm reasonably sure that communication methods that don't run 
inside the browser will be mostly dying out in the next years. But then, 
that's just my opinion.


Robert Kaiser


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arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the 
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-17 Thread Rufus


Robert Kaiser wrote:

Rufus schrieb:

It's not really a case of Apple not allowing it - it's more a case of
developers embracing, stepping up, and coding. There are a number of
alternative browsers for iPad, the most popular (I can see why) being
the Atomic browser - somewhat SM-like, and far more feature-rich than
Safari on iOS.


None of them is a browser by itself. Apple does NOT allow ANY software
in their store that competes with some software they are providing with
the device theirselves. All those alternatives are just Safari with a
different costume, i.e. some other user interface around it.



...I dunno.  I guess we're arguing coding semantics.  Atomic is 
certainly a browser to me, because it browses.  And it's functionality 
and feature set are vastly different from Safari, it certainly competes 
with Safari, I got it from the Apple App Store for 99 cents...and there 
are others there.  So I don't buy your premise one bit as stated.


Yes, it's platform-specific and uses some platform specific code, but so 
do a whole host of other software.  I don't have an issue with that from 
any standpoint.



But again, the way iOS works I find *far* less utility in the suite
concept when working on my iPad


Well, I'm reasonably sure that communication methods that don't run
inside the browser will be mostly dying out in the next years. But then,
that's just my opinion.

Robert Kaiser




The iPad is certainly the first device I've bought in a very long time 
that is actually changing the way I work.  I'm sort of dubious about the 
approaching Lion OS...I'm not sure I'm going to like some of it's more 
iOS-like implementations on my desktop, but then again I'm not sure I 
won't.  Everything changes...what matters more is still being able to 
make choices which suits the individual user.  More products, more better.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-17 Thread MCBastos


Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world:


Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood.  If I can browse
with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me.  If Apple wants
you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have
to write.  The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no
consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform.


You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the 
rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called 
alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine 
(the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same 
rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If 
Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla 
from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated 
with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident 
development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor 
extension ecosystem...


Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly 
of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind 
other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome.




SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I
think folks would pay that.  But if you're not even up to taking a
chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's.


The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is 
based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple 
won't allow Gecko in the App Store.



So?..big deal.  All depends on what you're after.  Personally, I'd go
through the App Store on an iOS browser like other are doing.


If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko 
browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply 
not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was 
interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, 
after all.



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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-17 Thread Rick Merrill


MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world:


Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse
with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants
you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have
to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no
consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform.


You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the
rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called
alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine
(the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same
rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If
Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla
from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated
with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident
development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor
extension ecosystem...

Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly
of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind
other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome.



SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I
think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a
chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's.


The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is
based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple
won't allow Gecko in the App Store.


So?..big deal. All depends on what you're after. Personally, I'd go
through the App Store on an iOS browser like other are doing.


If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko
browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply
not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was
interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software,
after all.




Ah, but Google has introduced hardware based on Chrome ...


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-17 Thread PhillipJones


MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world:


Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse
with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants
you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have
to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no
consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform.


You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the
rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called
alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine
(the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same
rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If
Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla
from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated
with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident
development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor
extension ecosystem...

Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly
of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind
other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome.



SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I
think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a
chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's.


The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is
based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple
won't allow Gecko in the App Store.


So?..big deal. All depends on what you're after. Personally, I'd go
through the App Store on an iOS browser like other are doing.


If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko
browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply
not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was
interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software,
after all.



You do know Apple is now selling Unlocked iPhones Just announced last week.

--
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-17 Thread Bill Davidsen


Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

Bill Davidsen wrote:

Please don't improve the user interface, the reason I like it is that I
don't have to learn all new keystrokes and methods every 4-6 months.


The improve, is in all aspects, we don't intend to break your
experiences/learned habits there where possible. But don't fear I don't
see anyone working on *anything* substantial there at the moment anyway.

That's very good news, because it is great for doing simple pages which work for 
the simple people who still run IR6 or (shudder) Mosaic. It's easy to use, text, 
images and tables are fine for documentation and email.



But there have been lots of web additions/features/etc. added to the Web
Platform since Composer was first made, so it does need some updating to
stay relevant.

There have been lots of neat complex tools written to generate all that stuff, 
too. They are the tools of professional web designers, communications 
specialists, etc. I have two such in my family, and you would need a huge team 
to do the tools they use. You also need to have a ton of browser sniffing, 
because the composer we have generates code which works for Gecko, Chrome, and a 
few others, while IE6 thru IE8 display it all wrong.


Let it remain irrelevant, SM lacks resources to do all the things desired in the 
heavily used bits, and composer is useful as is, what it does it does well, IMHO.


--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-17 Thread PhillipJones


Rufus wrote:

Robert Kaiser wrote:

Rufus schrieb:

It's not really a case of Apple not allowing it - it's more a case of
developers embracing, stepping up, and coding. There are a number of
alternative browsers for iPad, the most popular (I can see why) being
the Atomic browser - somewhat SM-like, and far more feature-rich than
Safari on iOS.


None of them is a browser by itself. Apple does NOT allow ANY software
in their store that competes with some software they are providing with
the device theirselves. All those alternatives are just Safari with a
different costume, i.e. some other user interface around it.



...I dunno. I guess we're arguing coding semantics. Atomic is certainly
a browser to me, because it browses. And it's functionality and
feature set are vastly different from Safari, it certainly competes with
Safari, I got it from the Apple App Store for 99 cents...and there are
others there. So I don't buy your premise one bit as stated.

Yes, it's platform-specific and uses some platform specific code, but so
do a whole host of other software. I don't have an issue with that from
any standpoint.


But again, the way iOS works I find *far* less utility in the suite
concept when working on my iPad


Well, I'm reasonably sure that communication methods that don't run
inside the browser will be mostly dying out in the next years. But then,
that's just my opinion.

Robert Kaiser




The iPad is certainly the first device I've bought in a very long time
that is actually changing the way I work. I'm sort of dubious about the
approaching Lion OS...I'm not sure I'm going to like some of it's more
iOS-like implementations on my desktop, but then again I'm not sure I
won't. Everything changes...what matters more is still being able to
make choices which suits the individual user. More products, more better.

You are aware the only way to get Lion is have a Very good Internet 
Connection Perhaps FOIS or better. It will not be sold on DVD. It will 
only cost $29.00.


Unfortunately with My puny DSL it will take at least 24 hours to download.

I, and a lot of other have protested on the Apple newsgroups. And on the 
Feedback Channels are getting red hot to.


In my Area, High speed anything is just not available. Cable is slow DSL 
is Slow and a lot of the people in my area are using Dial up. They just 
can't afford otherwise.


--
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http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-17 Thread d...@kd4e.com


If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko
browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply
not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was
interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software,
after all.


How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix?


--

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-16 Thread cyberzen


MCBastos a écrit :
Now and then I click on the wrong status bar icon

and open it when what I wanted was another module...


what about quitting coffee ?

--
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


PhillipJones schrieb:

Answer me a Question. How many features have we users begged and plead
for developers to keep and they were removed anyway?


Fewer than the other way round. And the totally skewed sample of people 
here in this newsgroup is only a tiny piece of the overall user base.


In any case, happy to not be in charge any more, makes laughing about 
this much easier than in earlier times.


Robert Kaiser

--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never 
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible 
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the 
time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :)

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Rufus schrieb:

I was thinking
that Opera Mobile would be just the solution for iPad


You know that Opera Mobile is not a browser and actually send everything 
you type in there to a central Opera server (and I'd guess that they try 
to market the data they're collecting there - I would if I would be a 
company that needs to make profit for its shareholders).



If there isn't a combined suite solution for iPad soon, I may just
finally chuck the suite concept altogether after all these years...pity.


There will be no other Mozilla products than Firefox Home for the 
iPhone or iPad as long as Apple does not allow any competition to their 
own products to run there.


Robert Kaiser


--
Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never 
meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible 
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the 
time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :)

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-16 Thread MCBastos


Interviewed by CNN on 15/06/2011 22:41, Rufus told the world:


...OTOH, having bought an iPad recently is rapidly changing my work
flow/habits re: browsing Usenet and surfing the web - I was thinking
that Opera Mobile would be just the solution for iPad, but it doesn't
operate with Mail/News in tabs like desktop Opera does.  Tabs *really*
shine on laptops and i-devices, IMO.  So I'm left to use Safari or
Atomic in combination with something like Newstap on my iPad.  Which
gets me wondering why I don't just use Safari and Thunderbird on my Macs.

If there isn't a combined suite solution for iPad soon, I may just
finally chuck the suite concept altogether after all these years...pity.
   In fact, the market seems *wide* open for Usenet newsreaders for iOS.
   An iOS version of SM building on the tab concept would be ideal, and
certainly go a far distance to retaining my interest in the combined
suite concept.  Yeah, I know it would cost some work...but that's why
they call it *work*.



Unfortunately, Apple does not *allow* other browsers in iOS. It's 
Safari's way or the highway.


Opera Lite gets around the rules because it is not actually a browser, 
in that it does not have its own HTML rendering engine -- instead, it 
downloads pre-rendered images from a special rendering server, more like 
a streaming media client. It was a solution Opera developed for cheap 
cell phones with pitifully weak CPUs and laughable amounts of RAM.


Developing any sort of application which overlaps in functionality 
Apple's official ones is chancy at best. You have no idea if they will 
allow the app to be distributed, or if your investment is going to go 
down the drain.


Actually, even non-competing apps have been known to be refused by Apple 
for no clear reason. There was a joke a couple months ago on the GPF 
webcomic about an app being refused because it was submitted on a 
Tuesday, then because it WASN'T submitted on a Tuesday, then because it 
was too mauve...


That users don't need freedom of choice, father knows best attitude is 
why, after careful evaluation, I chose to stay away from iOS. I'm very 
happy with my Android phone (I might have gone for Maemo/MeeGo if Nokia 
hadn't decided to abandon the platform...)


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-16 Thread MCBastos


Interviewed by CNN on 16/06/2011 05:11, cyberzen told the world:

MCBastos a écrit :
Now and then I click on the wrong status bar icon

and open it when what I wanted was another module...


what about quitting coffee ?



Joke all you want, but those are closely-spaced 16px icons. It's not 
that hard to click on the wrong one.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-16 Thread Michael Hannon


Robert Kaiser wrote:

In any case, happy to not be in charge any more, makes laughing about
this much easier than in earlier times.

Robert Kaiser



Who's in charge now?

I'm sorry to hear you've stopped running the project. Thanks for your 
work on the browser over the past few years (not to mention LCARStrek!). 
This coming from a happy user ever since Seamonkey was forked from Mozilla.


Regards,
Michael
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-16 Thread d...@kd4e.com


So one goes from the Apple-control freaks to the Google careless-
security and spy-on-you-privacy freaks.

Should we look to Palm for hope?


That users don't need freedom of choice, father knows best attitude
is why, after careful evaluation, I chose to stay away from iOS. I'm
very happy with my Android phone (I might have gone for Maemo/MeeGo
if Nokia hadn't decided to abandon the platform...)   MCBastos



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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Michael Hannon schrieb:

Robert Kaiser wrote:

In any case, happy to not be in charge any more, makes laughing about
this much easier than in earlier times.


Who's in charge now?


The collective of the SeaMonkey Council (of which I'm remaining a part, 
but just as one of multiple people, not as the project coordinator).



I'm sorry to hear you've stopped running the project. Thanks for your
work on the browser over the past few years (not to mention LCARStrek!).


As a note, LCARStrek will continue to be developed (but now for both 
SeaMonkey and Firefox). ;-)


As for me, my personal priorities have changed as stated in 
http://home.kairo.at/blog/2010-10/personal_priorities and I moved on, 
see also http://home.kairo.at/blog/2011-05/full_time_at_csi_mozilla - 
which now makes me say things like A beta user sample of [roughly 4-5x 
the release users of SeaMonkey] is too small to give us really good data 
on stability, but so far it looks stable enough to ship this as a final 
release. :)


I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel 
good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can 
do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-)


Robert Kaiser

--
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


d...@kd4e.com schrieb:

So one goes from the Apple-control freaks to the Google careless-
security and spy-on-you-privacy freaks.

Should we look to Palm for hope?


Good joke. Well, HP in that case nowadays, but still.

The only bet is to try and get some mobile vendor to go and actually 
ship something MeeGo-based. Given the developments there and a 
reasonably working showcase for outdated hardware (N900 CE), it would 
be doable well enough. The question is just if some vendor does it (I 
would not bet on Nokia, but there are others out there that might want 
to escape from the Google oppression they feel with Android).


Still, this is going way too far off topic...

Robert Kaiser


--
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meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible 
arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the 
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-16 Thread Rufus


Robert Kaiser wrote:

Rufus schrieb:

I was thinking
that Opera Mobile would be just the solution for iPad


You know that Opera Mobile is not a browser and actually send everything
you type in there to a central Opera server (and I'd guess that they try
to market the data they're collecting there - I would if I would be a
company that needs to make profit for its shareholders).



Yes - I know that.  But if they're the only gal at the party, you dance 
with her or sit by yourself.  But again, once I looked close she wasn't 
what I thought she was.



If there isn't a combined suite solution for iPad soon, I may just
finally chuck the suite concept altogether after all these years...pity.


There will be no other Mozilla products than Firefox Home for the
iPhone or iPad as long as Apple does not allow any competition to their
own products to run there.

Robert Kaiser




It's not really a case of Apple not allowing it - it's more a case of 
developers embracing, stepping up, and coding.  There are a number of 
alternative browsers for iPad, the most popular (I can see why) being 
the Atomic browser - somewhat SM-like, and far more feature-rich than 
Safari on iOS.


Actually I find Safari on the iPad more likable than Safari on the 
Mac...and the Atomic browser has even more features - like browser 
spoofing, home page setting, login retention, etc.  The only thing I 
don't like about Atomic so far is it's cloud-based bookmark 
synching...but I think that has more to do with iPad limitations on file 
transfer than anything else.


If the Atomic browser also had SM style Mail/News viewable in a tab it 
would be my #1 choice for use on my iPad, and it still may become so 
even without that feature set.  Each browser (Atomic and Safari) has 
cross-scrips for opening a link in the other browser...which I haven't 
really found a use for yet, but it's a nice feature.


But again, the way iOS works I find *far* less utility in the suite 
concept when working on my iPad, and that may also hold true on my Macs 
with the release of the Lion OS.  I haven't tried the NewsTap app on my 
iPad as of yet, but as with Opera above it's the only Usenet newsreader 
app out there, or at least the most SM-like...from the App Store writeup 
I think I'll like it.  Thunderbird for iOS?..yeah, bring it!


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-16 Thread Rufus


MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 15/06/2011 22:41, Rufus told the world:


...OTOH, having bought an iPad recently is rapidly changing my work
flow/habits re: browsing Usenet and surfing the web - I was thinking
that Opera Mobile would be just the solution for iPad, but it doesn't
operate with Mail/News in tabs like desktop Opera does. Tabs *really*
shine on laptops and i-devices, IMO. So I'm left to use Safari or
Atomic in combination with something like Newstap on my iPad. Which
gets me wondering why I don't just use Safari and Thunderbird on my Macs.

If there isn't a combined suite solution for iPad soon, I may just
finally chuck the suite concept altogether after all these years...pity.
In fact, the market seems *wide* open for Usenet newsreaders for iOS.
An iOS version of SM building on the tab concept would be ideal, and
certainly go a far distance to retaining my interest in the combined
suite concept. Yeah, I know it would cost some work...but that's why
they call it *work*.



Unfortunately, Apple does not *allow* other browsers in iOS. It's
Safari's way or the highway.



That's simply not true.  I have the Atomic browser installed on my iPad 
and like it...and there are others.



Opera Lite gets around the rules because it is not actually a browser,
in that it does not have its own HTML rendering engine -- instead, it
downloads pre-rendered images from a special rendering server, more like
a streaming media client. It was a solution Opera developed for cheap
cell phones with pitifully weak CPUs and laughable amounts of RAM.



Unfortunately (or fortunately) Opera Mobile doesn't have the feature set 
I was wanting to use it for...so I've ditched it.



Developing any sort of application which overlaps in functionality
Apple's official ones is chancy at best. You have no idea if they will
allow the app to be distributed, or if your investment is going to go
down the drain.



...as in any business venture.


Actually, even non-competing apps have been known to be refused by Apple
for no clear reason. There was a joke a couple months ago on the GPF
webcomic about an app being refused because it was submitted on a
Tuesday, then because it WASN'T submitted on a Tuesday, then because it
was too mauve...



Yes.  But there are alternatives to distribution other than the App 
Store...it would take some thinking, but I can see a way.



That users don't need freedom of choice, father knows best attitude is
why, after careful evaluation, I chose to stay away from iOS. I'm very
happy with my Android phone (I might have gone for Maemo/MeeGo if Nokia
hadn't decided to abandon the platform...)



I got my iPad strictly yo use in lieu of a wireless 
keyboard/mouse/touchpad to control a Mac Mini integrated into my home 
theater system...but I grossly underestimated what I can use it for.  I 
plan to never put music on it...and now that I have it, I wonder what 
took me so long.  One needs to look before one chooses, and now that I 
have one all I can say in hindsight is that I didn't look deep enough 
before I bought, or I'd have bought a G3 one instead of the wifi only. 
Next time...when I get my iPad 3.


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Rufus wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Rufus wrote:


[...snip...]

I've seen a quite a few positive comments, too, but I can't speak from
experience as I haven't installed it. For now, I'm sitting back and
reading, as I usually do, and will decide once I think I have enough
information.



There were major changes moving from 1.1.19 to 2.0.x, and I was hesitant
about those but eventually moved up, but this seems *huge* compared to
that...the negativity is far more fast and furious. Or should I say
infuriated?

My biggest complaint is not being able to install themes and extensions which 
work (with whining) if you install under 2.0.1 with all compatibility checking 
disabled and then upgrade to 2.1, but won't install on a new 2.1. That's not 
totally new, same thing in some cases when going 1.1.xx to 2.1.x, and it would 
be nice to have a do it anyway box to click when attempting installs.


 request for feature ---
Button in last sentence of above paragraph. Ask before rejecting an extension or 
theme.




--
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  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Rufus wrote:

Jan-Galt wrote:


[...snip...]


I already was garnering the impression that I wouldn't want to upgrade
to this version just due to some of the structural changes in it that
I've been reading about here, now I'm *convinced* I don't even want to
take it for a test drive on one of my lesser used machines...

...what the heck happened?




It's great for me.



...that's *one*...anybody else?

I haven't really had a chance to try forms yet, and I have to see if the one 
must have extension I use works. Other than that the lack of themes is 
annoying, but not a show stopper, happens with every major release.



--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


PhillipJones wrote:

MCBastos wrote:

Interviewed by CNN on 13/06/2011 23:31, Rostyslaw Lewyckyj told the
world:


I don't bother memorizing most passwords (e-mail, websites and such) --
the unimportant ones I trust to Seamonkey, the middling-important
ones I
save in KeePass. But the ones I do make a point of committing to memory
and not writing them down *anywhere* are:

- Banking passwords;
- The KeePass password (of course)
- The PGP passphrases


That's nice, congratulations!
Out of curiosity,
How old are you now?


I'm in my forties, why?



That figures. Your not old enough to have problems remembering things.
As you get older you capacity to remember things gets less and less. Not
because of Dementia. But because your brain is constantly bombarded with
pieces of information to learn and remember. The older you get some
information is lost to make room for new. Also memory can be affecetd by
medicines and chemicals you take, legit or not throughout your existence.

Wait another twenty years you'll find out what us older folk are talking
about.

It's an individual thing, I'm still doing well on remembering passwords for 30+ 
systems I admin, but matching names and faces gets harder.


For Linux users, a quick look at encfs might be instructive, a crypto filesystem 
you mount and use, and a minute (or whatever you set) after you finish using it, 
it unmounts itself. Good place to store many things.


--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


PhillipJones wrote:

Rufus wrote:

PhillipJones wrote:

Rufus wrote:

Jan-Galt wrote:

Rufusn...@home.com wrote :


William DeCoster wrote:

Please relay to the seamonkey people. Composer: click on a
graphic it
duplicates and jumps up to another location, (annoying). The graphic
does delete ok, Never an issue before this release. Other annoying
Features Pop Up anouncements and compress email folder
announcements. Please, dump this stuff, I can't believe anyone would
want it.


So far, SM 2.1 has generated the largest number of problems/user
complaints I've ever read here regarding any version/release...and
it's
only been a week or so.

I already was garnering the impression that I wouldn't want to
upgrade
to this version just due to some of the structural changes in it that
I've been reading about here, now I'm *convinced* I don't even
want to
take it for a test drive on one of my lesser used machines...

...what the heck happened?




It's great for me.



...that's *one*...anybody else?



NO for me. besides extensions If I switch I'll have to 2.1 I am going to
have to keep a Notepad beside my computer just for usernames and
passwords that won't save.



...now *that* is a deal breaker for me. And totally unexpected.



In SM 1.x you could save all user-names and passwords even from Banks
and institutions. Those entities twisted Mozilla's arms in to preventing
That. Supposedly they would be worried that users would protect those
passwords. However Using a Master password encrypts them so even if
computer is stolen there would be some protection. Some one came out
with a method to cancel this change out.

In 2.1 this can no longer be done. And although you can save run of the
mill user-names and passwords you can no longer do so for Banks and
institution even though you have a master password and encrypted.

So if I switch I will have to make a list of all of them and put in a
little black book. Making things even less secure.

For a long time there was no good way to get password info out in human readable 
format, because someone thought that was insecure. However, if you work for an 
entity which has a policy of requiring all passwords be kept with security 
people, then you need either a way to get that info or a new job.


Warning users when they are doing something dangerous is fine, but forgetting 
that it's my computer is not.


--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Robert Kaiser wrote:

Rufus schrieb:

So far, SM 2.1 has generated the largest number of problems/user
complaints I've ever read here regarding any version/release...and it's
only been a week or so.


Then you haven't been around much. I actually think the amount is pretty
low compared to 2.0 ;-)

I still think there should be a button (or popup, whatever) on version issues 
which lets the user try anyway. Would be vastly better than having to go through 
about:config diddling totally undocumented flags to get SM to even try to 
install something.


As my old racing partner used to say, If it blows, it blows, I ain't afraid of 
it.  R.I.P. Fat John.


--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

Rufus wrote:

Chris Ilias wrote:

On 11-06-13 2:55 PM, Rufus wrote:

Dunno...I was hesitant about 2.0 (in fact, I think I waited until
2.0.something, but I only recall two basic complaints - and most of it
was over the Forms Manager. I feel like I'm reading more for 2.1, and of
wider varieties...and workarounds that have users altering code?
Whassupwiddat?..

Most times, it's better to have actual data. SM2.0 was released on Oct
27, 2009. Here's a link to the archive of this newsgroup from that time.
http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.seamonkey/browse_frm/month/2009-10?start=750sa=N

From there, you can go through all the posts made in the first few days
and what the volume of traffic was, and compare it to 2.1.

Maybe it's because that archive starts with the Release Candidate (which
I pretty much ignore - more so after my bad experience with a beta) but
in terms of a final release this latest flurry still seems like it's
trending to the more, if' it's not there already.

And bear in mind that much of the pre-release chatter was in the development
group not this one, so the comparison is really hard to do right.

And since I went and read the release notes and see that PPC support has
been dropped...well...now I can't even test drive 2.1 on the machine I
depend least upon. So I'll sit out for a bit.

I believe you can still use 2.1 in another profile without converting your 2.0
data, but check that before trusting it. And even on Windows I assume you can
have another user which is totally independent.

--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010

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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


WLS wrote:

William DeCoster wrote:

Please relay to the seamonkey people. Composer: click on a graphic it
duplicates and jumps up to another location, (annoying). The graphic
does delete ok, Never an issue before this release. Other annoying
Features Pop Up anouncements and compress email folder
announcements. Please, dump this stuff, I can't believe anyone would
want it.


The SeaMonkey people are to my knowledge not doing any development of
Composer and IMHO think it should be removed from the suite.

What is it with people who think that if they don't use something it should 
cease to exist? I heard the same thing about Chatzilla in a chat room Monday, 
and I was using CZ right then!


If you don't like it, don't use it. Some of us use that composer to maintain a 
ton of HTML docs, and some wouldn't use SM otherwise.



I haven't seen any Pop Up or compress email folder announcements. I have
seen door hanger announcements. Which I like, love and want some more!

Perhaps you should review all of your preference and set them accordingly.



--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

On 6/12/2011 3:46 PM, WLS wrote:

The SeaMonkey people are to my knowledge not doing any development of
Composer and IMHO think it should be removed from the suite.


You are part right, there has not been much work on Composer from the
SeaMonkey team.

This is however not to be construed as a desire to rid ourselves of it,
just a too much to do, too little time issue. We wish to keep it, and
in fact, wish to improve it.

Please don't improve the user interface, the reason I like it is that I don't 
have to learn all new keystrokes and methods every 4-6 months.


--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever


WLS wrote:

Justin Wood (Callek) wrote:

On 6/12/2011 3:46 PM, WLS wrote:

The SeaMonkey people are to my knowledge not doing any development of
Composer and IMHO think it should be removed from the suite.


You are part right, there has not been much work on Composer from the
SeaMonkey team.

This is however not to be construed as a desire to rid ourselves of it,
just a too much to do, too little time issue. We wish to keep it, and
in fact, wish to improve it.



I'm aware of the too much to do, too little time issue.

If as Phillip says it is used to compose HTML mail then I guess it has
to stay. Too bad it can't be hidden so it can't be used for web design.

Why do you people want to make life difficult for people who use tools you 
don't? Are you such a control freak that if you don't like it you want to see it 
die. Many people DO use it, productively.


If you want to use something else, please go do so. Quietly.


I take it Thunderbird uses it for HTML mail also?



--
Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com
  We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have
taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if
we persevere we will reach our destination.  -me, 2010


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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever

2011-06-15 Thread PhillipJones


Bill Davidsen wrote:

WLS wrote:

William DeCoster wrote:

Please relay to the seamonkey people. Composer: click on a graphic it
duplicates and jumps up to another location, (annoying). The graphic
does delete ok, Never an issue before this release. Other annoying
Features Pop Up anouncements and compress email folder
announcements. Please, dump this stuff, I can't believe anyone would
want it.


The SeaMonkey people are to my knowledge not doing any development of
Composer and IMHO think it should be removed from the suite.


What is it with people who think that if they don't use something it
should cease to exist? I heard the same thing about Chatzilla in a chat
room Monday, and I was using CZ right then!

If you don't like it, don't use it. Some of us use that composer to
maintain a ton of HTML docs, and some wouldn't use SM otherwise.


I haven't seen any Pop Up or compress email folder announcements. I have
seen door hanger announcements. Which I like, love and want some more!

Perhaps you should review all of your preference and set them
accordingly.





That's typical of developers. If they don't use it, whether user it, it 
gone be daxxxed.


--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it
http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever