Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

*Mat *I need to play around with TW, I don't remember no all the situations 
system tiddlers were in the way. I will be reporting more in the future 
regarding this. Tags dropdown is one place where like springer said, it 
would be great to "fold" system tags under "System tags" link in the 
dropdown.

–––

TonyM the thread now is divided into pagination, I don't know why. I guess 
too many messages. The lead post is still there.

It is dangerous to "Redesign" something to meet goals that have already 
> being achieved. 

It really depends who have those goals... I really don't think newcomer and 
content writer goals are met, there are broader audiences of people that 
could use TiddlyWiki, but they choose weaker tools, because they like the 
interface and usability better. Plenty of youtube review videos proving 
that.

But I can understand that from a power user perspective this seems like a 
lot of unnecessary effort.

But if we want to improve things for all, let's turn the approach of 
improving things upside down, let's define the far vision, and then reverse 
engineer the steps until there. That might involve a lot of tweaking of the 
vision and ideas. BUT there are still bigger chances to end up where you 
want to be, rather than keep patching things, pulling to different 
directions that does not belong to one common vision. The design proposal 
has no means of jumping to final implementation. It's an iteration, and it 
requires patience to keep going with uncertainty. It's an invitation to 
explore the future vision, without being limited by existing constraints. 
And if there are too big of constraints, then why we are talking that TW is 
so modular and everyone can modify it to their own needs??

I like this pop quote, somewhat related:

*"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we 
> created them."  ~ A. Einstein*


–––

Thomas is it possible to download the whole icon pack at one? In my opinion 
the TW icons a quite bold/thick, introduces a lot of visual weight. I with 
there was a thinner, and more simplified 
version, maybe not so "soft/rounded" also to reduce the particular styling.

–––
I guess let's move to the TiddlyWikiUI group:) 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/83823de7-36fd-4268-bbd0-5cc156c21cbd%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi folks

Here’s my collection of TW icons (and a few more in a similar style), where
I suggest to add an optional secondary colour to at least some icons to
highlight what they stand for:
https://tid.li/tw5/apps/svg.html#Advanced%20Icon%20Editing

Feel free to take from here!

All the best,
Thomas

Edgaras wrote:
>>
>> Regarding icons https://remixicon.com is the best open source pack I've
>> found. 2149 very nice neutral icons. I am not big. I like that balance
>> between softness and sharpness. By the way is there somewhere the
>> TiddlyWiki icon pack?
>>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CALXLrTgaAfUgRzh%3Df3dGP7FFUUy7jbXxLvFar6%3DQWO_0niZLYw%40mail.gmail.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Paco Rivière]

I have a simple idea to revamp GettingStarted

Was unsure to post it here so I opened a new thead 
.

;)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/15cfc892-1641-4941-bc84-309f458ec368%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

TonyM wrote:
>
> mat,
>  
>
>> @TonyM, you're lifting the issue to a general critique of how many 
>> newcomers approach TW. While I partly agree, you're hijacking Edgaras 
>> thread here. None of your bullets are about what is being discussed here 
>> other than in some meta sense.
>>
>
> Can I clarify, is this your thread? Or has Edgaras chopped the head of it, 
> by deleting the lead post?
>

Sorry if I offended you, but what is the point with separate discussion 
threads if they diverge into multiple topics? To me it is clear that 
Edgaras is explicitly asking for feedback on his demos.

Anyway, you have good thoughts.

<:-) 


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7483a0c4-978a-407e-b3f7-9113bc84723d%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

@Tony
Mat started the group

On Fri, 22 May 2020, 11:05 TonyM,  wrote:

> FYI Riz has started a Google Group for UI Changes
>
> Please consider discussing this elephant task over there
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/tiddlywikiui
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/gX0o8j7Coa8/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
> tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/fe6f6c75-e69a-4a78-8865-628baf9f03d4%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAO0b0pG42U4Gwn2wxsT%2B-zGwauTAbMjmQhMagKiTYZYjxH9uWQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

mat,
 

> @TonyM, you're lifting the issue to a general critique of how many 
> newcomers approach TW. While I partly agree, you're hijacking Edgaras 
> thread here. None of your bullets are about what is being discussed here 
> other than in some meta sense.
>

Can I clarify, is this your thread? Or has Edgaras chopped the head of it, 
by deleting the lead post?

With all due respect I believe my answer is on target for the title of the 
thread, and I felt this an appropriate time to raise the "general critique 
of how many newcomers approach TW." because quite a few things are stated 
that tiddlywiki can't do, which in fact can be done. It is dangerous to 
"Redesign" something to meet goals that have already being achieved. 

As you know as a key contributor, the amount of activity has gone up, and a 
number of the new users including Edgaras have some great ideas that we 
love to hear. But when they are complex requests requesting changes, it can 
be hard to respond without a great deal of effort, especially when a good 
percentage of "possible change requests", need not be so, because we can 
already do it, if not exactly, certainly similar methods exist.

I do see some wonderful digressions, innovations and new methods being 
discussed, but I am also seeing a large quantity of "I wish tiddlywiki 
could" when "tiddlyWiki can already".

*Everyone is so inspired by the possibilities of tiddlywiki which is 
wonderful, but their is a high potential for a lot of unnecessary effort on 
all our parts.*

I simply want to point this out! especially in Topics with such broad 
subject matter.

Regards
Tony





 

>
> @Edgaras - some specific opinions:
>
>- The + at top right corner, i.e "create new tiddler", is a too 
>frequently used to be so subtle and off center. 
>- Consider that on wide monitors, things that are stuck to the sides 
>can get very distant.
>- What are the do/redo arrows for?
>- For smoother acceptance, I'd suggest not changing stuff that are not 
>part of your direct proposal. For example, I imagine that using another 
>edit icon isn't really a feature you really care for. And while the white 
>background is perhaps pretty, it washes out the tiddler. I understand 
>that's a matter of opinion but, then, I don't think it is the background 
>coloring that "makes TW difficult" which I believe is your general target 
>objective. 
>- For meta info area: Custom fields are way more used than Content 
>type.
>- There are a few system fields  
>e.g *color, _canonical_uri, list, class* that IMO would benefit from 
>more exposure (still in the meta info area) to raise awareness of them 
>(because they're useful). Not sure exactly how it should be manifested, so 
>I'm just saying.
>- I want to immediately see if a tiddler is being edited or not. I 
>guess part of your mockup is about hiding this but something needs to make 
>the distinction immediately obvious. I suggest making the Done button (i.e 
>the checkmark) be in red color while editing anything. This is subtle, yet 
>distinct and is equivalent behaviour to the whole wiki Save button.
>
> A thing to consider is that TW is almost exclusively for personal use. 
> "Practical" is more important than "Pretty". While most of us probably 
> prefer minimalism, it is still critical with immediate access to e.g the 
> sidebar lists etc. I think a good rule of thumb is "The more used, the more 
> prominent it needs to be"
>
> Thank you for working with this, Edgaras! Your thoughts come at a good 
> time also, considering Jeremys ideas for big changes 
>  that, BTW, may, or 
> may not, be backward compatible.
>
> <:-)
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/10fe1836-9883-451c-83e0-f60223c054df%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

FYI Riz has started a Google Group for UI Changes

Please consider discussing this elephant task over there 
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/tiddlywikiui

Regards
Tony

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/fe6f6c75-e69a-4a78-8865-628baf9f03d4%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Birthe C]

Edgaras,

torsdag den 21. maj 2020 kl. 22.08.32 UTC+2 skrev Edgaras:
>
>  I think, like we discussed above, it would be great if you could switch 
> to managing/developing/building mode with a switch icon to do all these 
> system things. And when I switch back to writing more, it's only my 
> content, peace and calm;))
>

I understand now and agree.


Birthe

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/2abe6ca0-1fff-4a7f-9b9b-3f8d61e456f7%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[springer]

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 5:04:14 PM UTC-4, Mat wrote:
>
>  
>
>> In my experience I was seeing system tiddlers in unwanted places like 
>> between my tag selection. I am just saying maybe content tiddlers needs a 
>> bit of separation in styling or placement. This still needs to be explored. 
>>
>
> Still not sure what you mean here. When picking tags, you do get system 
> tiddlers but they are at the bottom of the tag-picker list, separated from 
> non-system tags by a line.  But you bring up different *modes*, which may 
> be a good idea and where system tids should presumably not show. Makes 
> sense.
>
> Certainly the tag manager is a place where I'd love to have an easy way to 
fold all the system tags away somehow so that when I'm focused on my 
content, I can easily see just the tags that are specific to my wiki. 

Similarly, in the Recent list, it would be great to have all or nearly all 
pre-loaded tiddlers tucked away somehow, so that the recent list shows 
content that is specific to this particular wiki.

Perhaps an empty TW5 could include a "close the hood/bonnet" button that 
would toggle visibility for *all* the stuff that is not relevant while 
editing content (when that content is not itself TW-intertwined stuff).

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/fed218e7-40d5-4259-a773-218831e7933b%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

Edgaras wrote:
>
> Regarding icons https://remixicon.com is the best open source pack I've 
> found. 2149 very nice neutral icons. I am not big. I like that balance 
> between softness and sharpness. By the way is there somewhere the 
> TiddlyWiki icon pack?
>

Very good icon pack! The closest we get to a TW icon pack would be:

<$list filter="[all[tiddlers+shadows]tag[$:/tags/Image]]"><$link 
tooltip="{{!!title}}"><$transclude/>

...or perhaps:

http://fa5-free-svg.tiddlyspot.com/

It is worth noting that icons typically need some mangling to fit well into 
TW so they size right etc.

 

> In my experience I was seeing system tiddlers in unwanted places like 
> between my tag selection. I am just saying maybe content tiddlers needs a 
> bit of separation in styling or placement. This still needs to be explored. 
>

Still not sure what you mean here. When picking tags, you do get system 
tiddlers but they are at the bottom of the tag-picker list, separated from 
non-system tags by a line.  But you bring up different *modes*, which may 
be a good idea and where system tids should presumably not show. Makes 
sense.


Also I think there is some visual work to do, simplifying icons, adjusting 
> contrast, spacing, hiding less used icons under "more" icon, also providing 
> customisation menu.


All very interesting. 


*Mat *I don't think it helps much to move to another thread, just for 
> limiting the view to other users. I would rather move somewhere where it's 
> possible to have threaded discussions on each comment. Also I created *TW 
> Revamp Outline 
> *Google
>  
> docs where is possible to actually write in a structured manner and have 
> comments for each word or paragraph. What if we do it there?
>

Yeah, maybe that's good enough. It's obviously not threaded discussions tho.
 

Regading system tiddlers, whenever I install some plugin or theme, 
> something gets messed up, suddenly there are system tiddlers in my tags for 
> example. This happened when I installed Stroll for example. In general, 
> it's a little weird to see system tiddlers opening in the same view with my 
> content. It gets mixed up in the vertical storyview. I think, like we 
> discussed above, it would be great if you could switch to 
> managing/developing/building mode with a switch icon to do all these system 
> things. And when I switch back to writing more, it's only my content, peace 
> and calm;))
>

I can't speak for Stroll but, as noted, system titles do show up in the 
tag-picker because one does occasionally want to pick them. Same with 
system tiddlers in the story view. (But then, why did you open them if you 
didn't want them?) But, yeah, it makes sense to separate into different 
modes. Should be fairly simple to do. 

Just sent a join-request for TW Revamp Outline 

. 

<:-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/da813015-1b45-4ad9-b507-66dca172adbd%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[PMario]

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 10:33:36 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:
...

> Every review I've seen in the past says: "TiddlyWiki is great, but there 
> is a steep learning curve!" ... I think "steep learning curve" is a polite 
> description here. 
>

What I'd like to read is something similar to: "TiddlyWiki is a great app. 
Simple to use, clean and powerful! ... If you switch to "poweruser mode" 
you can make it your own!"

-mario

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/2199bed6-8d63-4211-a80b-d4cdcb0c361e%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[PMario]

Hi Tony, 

Very well said!. ... but

I'd like to provide a different point of view.

I like, that Edgaras develops completely new ideas, that are outside of my 
comfort zone -- as an "advanced user". ... It think, only if there is 
friction, we are able to change something. eg: I'm so used to the "status 
quo", that I don't see "beginners" problems anymore. 

New users have a very special, may be "innocent" (in a positive way) view 
about TW. ... The problem with this view is. It's gone way to fast. 

After working with TW for 2 weeks users get used to the UI limitations, 
because they start to know the workarounds. 4 more weeks digging into 
configuration, customizations and "doing it the TW way" they are "trapped". 

Every review I've seen in the past says: "TiddlyWiki is great, but there is 
a steep learning curve!" ... I think "steep learning curve" is a polite 
description here. 

In my newbie days I sometimes thought: "This concept makes me feel stupid. 
... but I know ... I'm not." ... I'm sure, some people here in the group, 
know this feeling ... sometimes. 

I think this shouldn't be the case, if we can avoid it.

There have been several discussions about reorganizing the "default TW UI", 
but I think Edgaras is the first UI designer by profession, which started a 
thread with a clickable mockup of his thoughts. ... I think that's unique. 

Since he is a designer, his job is to think outside of existing 
conventions, *even if the ideas are not* backwards compatible. New ideas 
don't have to be "backwards compatible". ... It's the job of the core devs, 
the plugin and theme authors, to make it work. 

As Saq pointed out, we can make new editions, to experiment with and run 
several iterations until *new users* are satisfied.

As you wrote. TW is a chameleon and I'm sure, with a click of a button, we 
can switch between a "zen like" and a "poweruser like" writing experience.

just some thoughts
-mario

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f7615648-75b6-467b-802b-62630e021f2b%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

*Mat*

That indicates your vision is a single tiddler view mode - ? I would 
> definitely not like this for default TW because it makes open data much 
> more difficult to access.

No, I agree it's good idea to have the vertical story river and even split 
view. The arrows are only for navigating back and forwards through the 
visited notes. I find myself lost when I click on many links at the time, I 
just want to come back to where I was 2 clicks before.

Regarding icons https://remixicon.com is the best open source pack I've 
found. 2149 very nice neutral icons. I am not big. I like that balance 
between softness and sharpness. By the way is there somewhere the 
TiddlyWiki icon pack?

I'm not sure what you mean here with system tiddlers. System tiddlers are 
> (simply!) tiddlers that have the prefix $:/ and this hides them from 
> showing up in most lists. In my post to which you reply, I bring up system 
> fields, i.e the few "reserved words/names" that are used for data fields in 
> the system. 

In my experience I was seeing system tiddlers in unwanted places like 
between my tag selection. I am just saying maybe content tiddlers needs a 
bit of separation in styling or placement. This still needs to be explored. 

We need to consider both "writing" and "using".

Yes, that's the reason I was wondering about how to have different modes 
for that. Maybe some button that switches the general mode of the whole 
editor. Am I in the writing/thinking mode or am I in organizing/building 
mode. This is interesting what you write:

> "distraction free light markup", "full WikiTexting with direct tool 
> access", "full on display of all features"


 I like "hover to show" but I know Jeremy is not fond of this because he 
> thinks it is problematic on touch screens... yet, it is commonly used on 
> touch screens where, if I recall, it instead is "touch to show".

Yes, there could be combination of hover for desktop and touch for mobile, 
or click for both. Also I think there is some visual work to do, 
simplifying icons, adjusting contrast, spacing, hiding less used icons 
under "more" icon, also providing customisation menu.

*Mat *I don't think it helps much to move to another thread, just for 
limiting the view to other users. I would rather move somewhere where it's 
possible to have threaded discussions on each comment. Also I created *TW 
Revamp Outline 
*Google
 
docs where is possible to actually write in a structured manner and have 
comments for each word or paragraph. What if we do it there?

Birthe C thank you for your kind words! As I wrote above I am not sure 
another thread will help much here, I would rather have threaded discussion 
for each comment or let's move to the collaborative document: *TW Revamp 
Outline 
.*

Regading system tiddlers, whenever I install some plugin or theme, 
something gets messed up, suddenly there are system tiddlers in my tags for 
example. This happened when I installed Stroll for example. In general, 
it's a little weird to see system tiddlers opening in the same view with my 
content. It gets mixed up in the vertical storyview. I think, like we 
discussed above, it would be great if you could switch to 
managing/developing/building mode with a switch icon to do all these system 
things. And when I switch back to writing more, it's only my content, peace 
and calm;))






-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/e7260420-4e4d-4ba7-97d4-cd055bc657d4%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

@Mat

I am getting a "You do not have permission to access this content" error

Can you check this thread regarding the above mentioned error message

https://support.google.com/a/thread/7309984?hl=en=7338450

On Thu, 21 May 2020, 18:44 Birthe C,  wrote:

> Mat,
> So sorry. Once upon a time I just saw something working like that in one
> of your tiddlyspots (I cannot even remember which one it was). I had to try
> it...that is why I called it by your name.
>
> torsdag den 21. maj 2020 kl. 15.06.44 UTC+2 skrev Mat:
>>
>> Birthe C wrote:
>>>
>>> I have seen and tried Mats hover, but it kind of flickers and I do not
>>> find it easy to use. At least not on my computer.
>>>
>>
>> There's a "Mats hover"? I am just referring to the general technique, it
>> is not mine. It works well on many (non-TW) sites and other apps.
>>
>> <:-)
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/gX0o8j7Coa8/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
> tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/8655904d-69bf-4381-b480-9b19a7718c64%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAO0b0pEh_4Vdgr4%3DENLp2wtHfZ4V%2BhX0iA-0q7126i48oKuQkw%40mail.gmail.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Birthe C]

Mat,
So sorry. Once upon a time I just saw something working like that in one of 
your tiddlyspots (I cannot even remember which one it was). I had to try 
it...that is why I called it by your name.

torsdag den 21. maj 2020 kl. 15.06.44 UTC+2 skrev Mat:
>
> Birthe C wrote:
>>
>> I have seen and tried Mats hover, but it kind of flickers and I do not 
>> find it easy to use. At least not on my computer.
>>
>
> There's a "Mats hover"? I am just referring to the general technique, it 
> is not mine. It works well on many (non-TW) sites and other apps.
>
> <:-)
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/8655904d-69bf-4381-b480-9b19a7718c64%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

Birthe C wrote:
>
> I have seen and tried Mats hover, but it kind of flickers and I do not 
> find it easy to use. At least not on my computer.
>

There's a "Mats hover"? I am just referring to the general technique, it is 
not mine. It works well on many (non-TW) sites and other apps.

<:-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0ef0da7d-b201-41b6-a0d3-81c613759589%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Birthe C]

Edgaras,
You are showing great patience and you are great at summarizing where you 
are at the moment. It is clear that you know there are several ways to peel 
the "banana".
Now would you consider starting a new thread starting with a summary. I 
think that would make things more clear for now and easier for more people 
to take part in this important discussion.

Edgaras and Mat,
We are able to set the editor toolbar from control panel and the tiddler is 
$:/core/ui/ControlPanel/Settings/EditorToolbar. . I have it in my 
EditTemplate in my own TW. I have seen and tried Mats hover, but it kind of 
flickers and I do not find it easy to use. At least not on my computer.

Riz,
Thank you for the clear description of Github and the potential community 
repo.

Mat,
In my opinion you are on the track. 

We need to be able to use tiddlywiki as a tiddlywiki. But things can be 
moved and work at the place when needed. 

We should all remember that we just might be a little too fixated on the 
look we know. 

Edgaras,
I am not sure why you feel the system tiddlers are all over the place?

Birthe.


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/2e73fc70-80ec-46b6-a182-0cf9a9ac969d%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

Everyone and @Riz

My proposal is merely to have a place where posts on a TW UI makeover *doesn't 
drown in all the other discussions*, so I made this:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/tiddlywikiui

It is NOT a place to ask for help or where we hope for as many members as 
possible. It is simply a separate place to avoid all the cacophony here so 
we can focus on discussing a redesign of the TW UI. When the issues 
discussed are sorted out, the group could "die" just like a separate thread 
here would - but with the difference that it is multiple such threads 
collected in one place for better overview.

Feel free to join or keep discussing here in the noise. This thread, to 
name one example, is already way too long and would benefit from splitting 
up to focus on the ideas separately.

<:-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/b389bf65-b75d-49d9-8ce7-659bdaef8d36%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

@Mat: oh no

The idea of a community repo is to ensure a parallel system of testing
visual changes, documentation and other feature sets without bothering
Jeremy for every silly thing. Pushing the important changes to core while
keeping the rest in a community repo mirroring main repo, will keep the
main repo clean.

I have not done this for two reasons

1. Such a community repo should be owned by members much senior to me.
Somebody who has intimate knowledge of wikitext and JavaScript. A
organisational Repo can have more than one owner - So may be 3 owners.

2. Even such a move should have Jeremy's go ahead. Because unlike
individual plugin repos, organisational repos based on TW5 is a more
serious affair.

If such an community repo becomes real, there can be teams under that with
jobs assigned to review new documentation and may be even a curated plugin
list. I would my time and knowledge in whatever way I can to such an
endeavour, but not initiative.

I have learned well from Reddit experience :)

Sincerely,
Riz



On Thu, 21 May 2020, 16:43 Mat,  wrote:

> Edgaras wrote:
>>
>> - Arrows are for navigating back and forward, which tiddler you visited
>> the latest (clicking on links). I updated arrows to look less like
>> redo/undo.
>>
>
> That indicates your vision is a single tiddler view mode - ? I would
> definitely not like this for default TW because it makes open data much
> more difficult to access.
>
>
>
>> - Icons and background I need to test. I was not fan of the original
>> icons, but maybe that's bias, I will try them on the new layout.
>>
>
> I believe, the icons are custom made by Jeremy. I personally like them but
> a big disadvantage is that one cannot easily find new icons with a similar
> style. The optimal would either be if we had a custom made, very rich set (
> ref ) or, more
> easily, just use some rich open source alternative.
>
>
>
>> - I think we need some general consideration around system tiddlers. I
>> think there could be a way to seperate content and system tiddlers. I've
>> seen some interesting theme, where tiddlers were in the sidebar, I think
>> some system tiddlers could be pinned to the sidebar, so they are always at
>> reach.
>>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here with system tiddlers. System tiddlers are
> (simply!) tiddlers that have the prefix $:/ and this hides them from
> showing up in most lists. In my post to which you reply, I bring up system
> fields, i.e the few "reserved words/names" that are used for data fields in
> the system.
>
>
>
>> - Even if TW is for personal use, it does not have to be messy... Many
>> people want to have a distraction free writing and thinking experience.
>> That's the key for me. The "prettiness" come from practicality, hiding
>> things that you don't use too often. It's a balance yet to be found,
>> through iterations we will find way to prioritise more used items and make
>> them more visible.
>>
>
> We need to consider both "writing" and "using" actually, for writing,
> we should perhaps even differentiate between typing text (e.g a markup'ed
> poem) and more complex "WikiTexting" where you need access to tools and you
> need to look up titles for other tiddlers, etc. The former, i.e the typing
> of simple text would benefit from distraction free (I like the OMM
> interface , old video I know
> but those click sounds and the music... h) - but WikiTexting probably
> can't be quite that.
>
>
> Again, it helps to be more specific – here I agree with you, sidebar
>> should be more prominent, probably open by the default. I will work on
>> sidebar.
>>
>
> One could imagine a toggle up in corner for e.g "distraction free light
> markup", "full WikiTexting with direct tool access", "full on display of
> all features"
>
>
> - Yes, toolbar needs to be re-introduced, I forgot in this iteration. My
>> take on toolbar is like this:
>>   a. It should be possible to hide toolbar by default. (Maybe
>> already is, but I want that on the spot)
>>
>
> I like "hover to show" but I know Jeremy is not fond of this because he
> thinks it is problematic on touch screens... yet, it is commonly used on
> touch screens where, if I recall, it instead is "touch to show".
>
>
>
>>   b. Balloon popup toolbox is super good idea. I would use that a
>> lot when toolbar is hidden (also should be possible to customize on the
>> spot, maybe small link icon that leads to settings.)
>>
>
> Yeah, I find that controls should be as close to *here *as possible AND
> also collected in a central place. TW and transclusion is perfect for this;
> dispersed doses of local control for the context AN D a central
> Controlplanel aggregating them all.
>
>
> Referring back to @Riz point; maybe this discussion should be moved into a
> Github repo (you created one, right @Riz?). The thread is split up here so
> it is difficult to navigate to what is 

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

Edgaras wrote:
>
> - Arrows are for navigating back and forward, which tiddler you visited 
> the latest (clicking on links). I updated arrows to look less like 
> redo/undo.
>

That indicates your vision is a single tiddler view mode - ? I would 
definitely not like this for default TW because it makes open data much 
more difficult to access.

 

> - Icons and background I need to test. I was not fan of the original 
> icons, but maybe that's bias, I will try them on the new layout.
>

I believe, the icons are custom made by Jeremy. I personally like them but 
a big disadvantage is that one cannot easily find new icons with a similar 
style. The optimal would either be if we had a custom made, very rich set (
ref ) or, more 
easily, just use some rich open source alternative.

 

> - I think we need some general consideration around system tiddlers. I 
> think there could be a way to seperate content and system tiddlers. I've 
> seen some interesting theme, where tiddlers were in the sidebar, I think 
> some system tiddlers could be pinned to the sidebar, so they are always at 
> reach.
>

I'm not sure what you mean here with system tiddlers. System tiddlers are 
(simply!) tiddlers that have the prefix $:/ and this hides them from 
showing up in most lists. In my post to which you reply, I bring up system 
fields, i.e the few "reserved words/names" that are used for data fields in 
the system. 

 

> - Even if TW is for personal use, it does not have to be messy... Many 
> people want to have a distraction free writing and thinking experience. 
> That's the key for me. The "prettiness" come from practicality, hiding 
> things that you don't use too often. It's a balance yet to be found, 
> through iterations we will find way to prioritise more used items and make 
> them more visible.
>

We need to consider both "writing" and "using" actually, for writing, 
we should perhaps even differentiate between typing text (e.g a markup'ed 
poem) and more complex "WikiTexting" where you need access to tools and you 
need to look up titles for other tiddlers, etc. The former, i.e the typing 
of simple text would benefit from distraction free (I like the OMM interface 
, old video I know but those 
click sounds and the music... h) - but WikiTexting probably can't be 
quite that.


Again, it helps to be more specific – here I agree with you, sidebar should 
> be more prominent, probably open by the default. I will work on sidebar.
>

One could imagine a toggle up in corner for e.g "distraction free light 
markup", "full WikiTexting with direct tool access", "full on display of 
all features"


- Yes, toolbar needs to be re-introduced, I forgot in this iteration. My 
> take on toolbar is like this:
>   a. It should be possible to hide toolbar by default. (Maybe 
> already is, but I want that on the spot)
>

I like "hover to show" but I know Jeremy is not fond of this because he 
thinks it is problematic on touch screens... yet, it is commonly used on 
touch screens where, if I recall, it instead is "touch to show".

  

>   b. Balloon popup toolbox is super good idea. I would use that a 
> lot when toolbar is hidden (also should be possible to customize on the 
> spot, maybe small link icon that leads to settings.)
>

Yeah, I find that controls should be as close to *here *as possible AND 
also collected in a central place. TW and transclusion is perfect for this; 
dispersed doses of local control for the context AN D a central 
Controlplanel aggregating them all.


Referring back to @Riz point; maybe this discussion should be moved into a 
Github repo (you created one, right @Riz?). The thread is split up here so 
it is difficult to navigate to what is mentioned.

<:-)

<:-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/77ef6bc2-a7fc-4fa7-adef-1f19fb3557b0%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

*Tony K *thank you! Definitely, I will add the full screen split edit view 
to outline. A lot of people need it, seems like.

Mat included many of your specific requirements to the todo! Most of them I 
agree with.

- Arrows are for navigating back and forward, which tiddler you visited the 
latest (clicking on links). I updated arrows to look less like redo/undo.
- Icons and background I need to test. I was not fan of the original icons, 
but maybe that's bias, I will try them on the new layout.
- I think we need some general consideration around system tiddlers. I 
think there could be a way to seperate content and system tiddlers. I've 
seen some interesting theme, where
tiddlers were in the sidebar, I think some system tiddlers could be pinned 
to the sidebar, so they are always at reach.
- Even if TW is for personal use, it does not have to be messy... Many 
people want to have a distraction free writing and thinking experience. 
That's the key for me. The "prettiness" come from practicality, hiding 
things that you don't use too often. It's a balance yet to be found, 
through iterations we will find way to prioritise more used items and make 
them more visible.
Again, it helps to be more specific – here I agree with you, sidebar should 
be more prominent, probably open by the default. I will work on sidebar.

- Yes, toolbar needs to be re-introduced, I forgot in this iteration. My 
take on toolbar is like this:
  a. It should be possible to hide toolbar by default. (Maybe 
already is, but I want that on the spot)
  b. Balloon popup toolbox is super good idea. I would use that a 
lot when toolbar is hidden (also should be possible to customize on the 
spot, maybe small link icon that leads to settings.)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/795bb513-8483-4da5-853e-08daf49655fb%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

@Edgaras

One general problem with your proposal is how the editor tools no longer 
are available at all. What are your thoughts on this matter?

If one only looks at simple markup, i.e punctuation-to-HTML then this is 
not a problem but there are other tools like, say, stamp or excision that 
are not directly accessible from mere markup. 

As you may or may not know I'm (extremely slowly) working on a balloon 
popup type toolbox which could solve this but I'm interested to hear if you 
have considered this issue?

<:-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7f740ef6-ed11-432f-9e51-f1ca18cb06ad%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

@Edgaras, that's really great stuff. As Saq says, the way to the core or 
the standard edition goes via plugins for backward compatibility but also 
because it more easily allows an iterative process with community input and 
testing.

@TonyM, you're lifting the issue to a general critique of how many 
newcomers approach TW. While I partly agree, you're hijacking Edgaras 
thread here. None of your bullets are about what is being discussed here 
other than in some meta sense.


@Edgaras - some specific opinions:

   - The + at top right corner, i.e "create new tiddler", is a too 
   frequently used to be so subtle and off center. 
   - Consider that on wide monitors, things that are stuck to the sides can 
   get very distant.
   - What are the do/redo arrows for?
   - For smoother acceptance, I'd suggest not changing stuff that are not 
   part of your direct proposal. For example, I imagine that using another 
   edit icon isn't really a feature you really care for. And while the white 
   background is perhaps pretty, it washes out the tiddler. I understand 
   that's a matter of opinion but, then, I don't think it is the background 
   coloring that "makes TW difficult" which I believe is your general target 
   objective. 
   - For meta info area: Custom fields are way more used than Content type.
   - There are a few system fields  
   e.g *color, _canonical_uri, list, class* that IMO would benefit from 
   more exposure (still in the meta info area) to raise awareness of them 
   (because they're useful). Not sure exactly how it should be manifested, so 
   I'm just saying.
   - I want to immediately see if a tiddler is being edited or not. I guess 
   part of your mockup is about hiding this but something needs to make the 
   distinction immediately obvious. I suggest making the Done button (i.e the 
   checkmark) be in red color while editing anything. This is subtle, yet 
   distinct and is equivalent behaviour to the whole wiki Save button.

A thing to consider is that TW is almost exclusively for personal use. 
"Practical" is more important than "Pretty". While most of us probably 
prefer minimalism, it is still critical with immediate access to e.g the 
sidebar lists etc. I think a good rule of thumb is "The more used, the more 
prominent it needs to be"

Thank you for working with this, Edgaras! Your thoughts come at a good time 
also, considering Jeremys ideas for big changes 
 that, BTW, may, or 
may not, be backward compatible.

<:-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/fd372dba-6078-41fd-a026-2a74f017428d%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Tony K]

Edgaras i love what you did

do you have any plans for a full screen edit with split view edit / preview 
? 

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 11:11:37 AM UTC+3, Edgaras wrote:
>
> Saq Imtiaz thank you. Yes, I think it's better to go with the current 
> editor (for now).
>
> I don't know how to "reframe" the conversation, I tried to change the 
> title of the thread, but I can't. Should we move to another thread? I am 
> also not sure what "vertical edition" means to be honest.
>
> Yes, certain features and abilities will get underplayed in favour of more 
>> affordances for others, and that is OK for now since we are not replacing 
>> the UI in the standard distribution. 
>
> Yes, that's the key point with this adoption. Still, *all *the features 
> should be accessible in one way or the other. Prototype might be confusing 
> in that sense, as it does not include it all. 
>
> Identifying key requirements -yes, would be so helpful to have an agreed 
> outline here: *TW Revamp Outline* 
> 
>
> Thanks again!
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/357f17a6-e465-4232-933e-30d09173772d%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Saq Imtiaz thank you. Yes, I think it's better to go with the current 
editor (for now).

I don't know how to "reframe" the conversation, I tried to change the title 
of the thread, but I can't. Should we move to another thread? I am also not 
sure what "vertical edition" means to be honest.

Yes, certain features and abilities will get underplayed in favour of more 
> affordances for others, and that is OK for now since we are not replacing 
> the UI in the standard distribution. 

Yes, that's the key point with this adoption. Still, *all *the features 
should be accessible in one way or the other. Prototype might be confusing 
in that sense, as it does not include it all. 

Identifying key requirements -yes, would be so helpful to have an agreed 
outline here: *TW Revamp Outline* 


Thanks again!

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/9e6c7951-c1e8-411d-87e3-171cf1df2fe6%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Saq Imtiaz design and development should go in parallel, always ping pong 
and inform each other. Yet, at this point when many are familiar with TW in 
depth, it's important to step back and
take a fresh look what we would want, without worrying for a second what is 
possible. We can always scale back and make sure it's all backwards 
compatible with the core.

I only design because I cannot code TW yet, if somebody can code please do, 
if somebody have specific changes to the *prototype*, please tell. From my 
design practice I can also tell,
prototypes are very powerful, but it often scares people as they perceive 
it as a final thing. It's just an iteration that can be changed completely. 
Just a way to show ideas concretely and visually. 

But I understand the concerns of braking the core, so for sure the 
development should be careful.

- Regarding the tags, please write a short specification here or in TW 
Revamp Outline 

 or 
make a small hand sketch.
- Goot point, I have to put considerations into existing draft system. 
Again, specific no-gos, specifications would help. Currently the in-place 
editing is only for title, tags and meta info, but not the body,
as you can see in the prototype. To edit the body you still have to go to 
draft mode, maybe I need small icon or text to signal that. Another though, 
even with the in-place title editing, maybe
it's possible to switch tiddler smoothly to the draft one.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/b289d394-ede4-44af-a0a1-69407c6aac78%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Saq Imtiaz]

@Edgaras don't be discouraged. There is merit in your suggestions and 
requirements, even if they differ from those of others. I think you have 
done well by sidelining the requirement for a better editor for now. Not 
because it is not important, but rather because it is a large and 
challenging undertaking and at this point will probably prevent from 
getting the ball rolling for now.

I would also recommend that we reframe this conversation not as a redesign 
of Tiddlywiki, but as creating an alternative UI on top of TiddlyWiki that 
emphasizes certain features (i.e. a vertical edition as we call it). Yes, 
certain features and abilities will get underplayed in favour of more 
affordances for others, and that is OK for now since we are not replacing 
the UI in the standard distribution. 

Later, learnings and experiences from this process can be fed back into 
improving the default UI as well. In other words, an incremental approach, 
using real world usage data and user studies to make improvements and 
changes.

I think identifying the key requirements for this edition and purposefully 
limiting work to those features at first, is the best way to initiate 
progress, 

Hope this helps,
Saq

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 9:42:26 AM UTC+2, Edgaras wrote:
>
> *TonyM* thank you for your in comment from the bottom of the heart.
>
> I will reply fast not to be rude, but I have to focus on other work today, 
> and I am not that fast at writing.
>
> What I am scanning from your comment (and I will read it again later) that 
> the new theme will prevent users to customise TiddlyWiki to the detail as 
> they can now. That's not at all my intention.
> First, this is just a prototype, not everything is shown. Second, even if 
> we develop this, everything cannot be built at once, we must make 
> priorities. But ideally, the new theme
> should have all core features of TiddlyWiki. When I have time I can show 
> that more in the prototype. It would help alot if you could give some 
> *specific*  examples of tiddlers that just cannot be missed.
>
> My main point with this theme is not to neglect the customisation power, I 
> am all in for teaching people about widgets and macros. This is just a 
> theme/plugin, 
> and my point it to focus this theme on digital knowledge workers who want 
> the best editor experience, very customisable tool and a static site 
> builder. I have these needs and I know many people has.
> At the moment I am just not completely pleased with the looks, and all the 
> clicks I have to make to get to where I want. The writing experience is 
> currently too distracting for me. And the static 
> site building process is not straight forward (I still could not figure 
> out how to mix my own css and tiddlywiki css for static export, and to get 
> a clean code). More on that for another time.
>
> What I also forgot to include in this iteration:
> ☑️ Users should still be able to access toolbar and new cheatsheet pop-up 
> icon when editing text.
> ☑️  Features of Stroll (more accessible backlinks, freelinks etc. link 
> typing suggestions...)
>
> Once again, this is just a prototype to have more concrete discussion 
> going on, please write your *specific* suggestions for improvement here 
> or edit the *TW Revamp Outline 
> *
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/516c719a-88fa-4161-bfde-36933dd8e13e%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Joshua, Riz thank you for encouragement too.

Reet Pandher yes, I think users should have power to customize font, and 
properly customize colors in the settings. I would appreciate if somebody 
could make a quick sketch or outline of desired settings panel. 
Then I could include that to design of the prototype.

Also good ideas with out of the box todos, collapsing tiddlers, 
cheatsheet/shortcut guide/popup, color coding editor. Thanks! (yes yes, it 
all exist with plugins, let's put it all together)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/924d9cfe-368e-4fcb-a0ae-f9478e4beeed%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Saq Imtiaz]

I second that the way to work on this is as set of plugins and a theme that 
comprise a new vertical edition. Low fidelity prototyping only gets you so 
far. After enough real world testing and usage in the wild, learnings can 
be considered for adoption into the core.

It is worth remembering that for the core we have to keep in mind the needs 
for backwards compatibility, which apply to some extent to UI as well. It 
does not mean changes cannot be made, but rather that they would need to be 
well thought out, tested and possibly part of a larger set of layout 
changes that warranted breaking backwards compatibility.

Working on this a separate vertical edition does not suffer any similar 
constraints and will get the ball rolling as well. While Jeremy's input is 
always valuable, in no way is progress on this front dependent on him.

In terms of implementation:
- there are a few solutions I have seen for adding/editing tags in the view 
template posted to this group. My own is visible in the hangouts video 
recently posted. All are relatively trivial to implement.

- at some point I worked on a in-place edit feature for the text of a 
tiddler, which was then abandoned in favour of my Notation editor. The key 
there is that even with an in-place edit, what gets edited is not the same 
tiddler but a draft of it. This preserves the draft features of the core, 
avoids refresh issues and lets you cancel without saving changes. I can try 
to dig up my old code if necessary, but this isn't difficult.

Hope this helps,
Saq

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 8:50:49 AM UTC+2, Odin Jorna wrote:
>
> This looks really great and up to current standards. I think this effect 
> could be done via a combination of a plugin and a theme for the current TW5.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/91a7f4a5-825f-42c8-b8a0-b280055001c8%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

TonyM thank you for your in comment from the bottom of the heart.

I will reply fast not to be rude, but I have to focus on other work today, 
and I am not that fast at writing.

What I am scanning from your comment (and I will read it again later) that 
the new theme will prevent users to customise TiddlyWiki to the detail as 
they can now. That's not at all my intention.
First, this is just a prototype, not everything is shown. Second, even if 
we develop this, everything cannot be built at once, we must make 
priorities. But ideally, the new theme
should have all core features of TiddlyWiki. When I have time I can show 
that more in the prototype. It would help alot if you could give some 
*specific*  examples of tiddlers that just cannot be missed.

My main point with this theme is not to neglect the customisation power, I 
am all in for teaching people about widgets and macros. This is just a 
theme/plugin, 
and my point it to focus this theme on digital knowledge workers who want 
the best editor experience, very customisable tool and a static site 
builder. I have these needs and I know many people has.
At the moment I am just not completely pleased with the looks, and all the 
clicks I have to make to get to where I want. The writing experience is 
currently too distracting for me. And the static 
site building process is not straight forward (I still could not figure out 
how to mix my own css and tiddlywiki css for static export, and to get a 
clean code). More on that for another time.

What I also forgot to include in this iteration:
☑️ Users should still be able to access toolbar and new cheatsheet pop-up 
icon when editing text.
☑️  Features of Stroll (more accessible backlinks, freelinks etc. link 
typing suggestions...)

Once again, this is just a prototype to have more concrete discussion going 
on, please write your *specific* suggestions for improvement here or edit 
the *TW Revamp Outline 
*


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/bc868cd0-f28b-46e8-bad9-207f2f121751%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Odin Jorna]

This looks really great and up to current standards. I think this effect 
could be done via a combination of a plugin and a theme for the current TW5.

Op donderdag 21 mei 2020 00:26:11 UTC+2 schreef Edgaras:
>
> Alright, I gave another shot for the prototype. I accept the fact that 
> redeveloping the core editor might be too big of the task from the 
> beginning... That's unfortunate, 
> but I adapted the prototype to keep the current editor:
>
> Key changes:
> - View/edit in two modes instead of one
> - Moved "Meta info" section down
> - To mimic the card style, I added a border to the tiddler, so it will be 
> visible when there are more than one.
> - Moved favorite start in the same line with tags
>
> *Important part about this design is that you can edit everything on 
> tiddler right away without going to edit mode, except the main body of the 
> tiddler, that requires editing mode.*
>
> *See the video 
>  *
> *And try the prototype in Figma 
> 
>  *
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/73d0f43c-ccf7-40d2-8714-b4f75b54bc8c%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Reet Pandher]

I'd appreciate if y'all can also focus on making some *very basic 
*functionalities 
accessible to those who cannot code.

For e.g.

   1. A properly labelled color palette like i suggested here 
   .
   2. Add an option in the control panel to change fonts and font sizes 
   without having to edit some code {I am genuinely surprised this isn't 
   already there.}
   3. Ability to create a todo list without writing a macro (add a todo 
   list option into the editor.)
   4. Ability to collapse text inside a tiddler (or at the very least allow 
   us to create a shortcut for things like these)
   5. A proper(and up-to-date) guide on wikitext shortcuts that work in TW5.
   6. If possible have some color coding inside the editing section(For 
   example color code the headings(Exclamations}, indents{colons} etc.) 
   because currently i feel lost when writing large amount of text. And 
   looking at the preview pane everytime is just so distracting and slows me 
   down significantly.

I feel that stuff as basic as that will go a long way to help us lowly 
non-coders :)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7768fbae-952c-4ed5-9c58-7aa9e201d837%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Folks,

Strong values expressed in this reply are my personal feelings based on 
complex concepts, and I do not intend insult to anyone, if you feel I have 
slighted you somehow, you miss readme. I would rather express my ideas then 
self censor.

Scanning this thread, I see a lot of value to read in detail as well, 
Whilst I empathise with Edgaras I would like to respectfully suggest that 
often we want more from tiddlywiki not because it can't do it, but because 
we have prior experience of something different. We cannot get to know 
tiddlywiki on the first "date",  The markdown vs wikitext is a key example, 
Markdown is trivial, and Wiki Text markdown equally so, it takes minutes to 
reorient, I have edited WikiPedia the Tiddlywiki in the same hour, it is 
not a problem. Any thing markdown delivered wikitext can also. 

However filters and other features employ the use of at least 4th 
generation coding structure such as the powerful list processing in 
tiddlywiki. The new user will see these quickly, but to then say tiddlywiki 
is too complex is is like refusing Santa's gifts because they are too 
colourful. 

Tiddlywiki is full of shiney tools and possibilities, like walking into a 
well appointed toolshed, you should expect at first it may seem complex, 
but before long you will recognise the hammer the saw etc...

Given I now have a much deeper understanding of tiddlywiki (more than a 
decade experience) I see virtually no barriers to doing anything in 
tiddlywiki, and since it is based on html/css/javascript many of the skills 
one gains to understand tiddlywiki are transferable. When I do see barriers 
I try and get around them or encourage others to, however tiddlywiki's 
capabilities are so expansive its possibilities are already infinite.

With the sudden influx of new enthusiasts during these covid times I see 
trends perhaps from tiddlywiki naivety, I do not agree with, but it can be 
hard to express the arguments because it involves technical and value based 
judgements.

   - Propensity to solve perceived gaps with Javascript before knowing how 
   to do it in wikitext/Macros and widgets
   - A Strong focus on exporting static files (A strength but only one of 
   the reasons for tiddlywiki), consider exporting whole tiddlywikis.
   - Tiddlywiki's capabilities seeming complex, not because it is, but 
   because it allows you to be.
   - People placing demanding expectations on tiddlywiki, which it can 
   meet, born from any solution they like on the internet. Yes tiddlywiki can 
   adapt those methods and present them, but it can do this for most 
   algorithms and solutions. To maintain this versatility requires uniquely 
   tiddlywiki solutions that take time to learn, Why?, because it remains 
   versatile, not to one personal preference, but to many peoples desires.

Tiddlywiki is an adaptable chameleon unlike almost any other comparable 
solution, unless someone has shared an edition, you must not expect to be 
spoon fed a solution that resembles a much less capable subset of 
tiddlywikis features, why would you want that when you can future proof 
yourself with much more?

Sure these qualities of tiddlywiki may be a barrier for many, but I have 
swallowed the red pill and I am not going back, nor would I want to loose 
functionality for tiddlywiki to appeal to more people.

My key focus of late is opening capabilities and removing barriers I find, 
most of which few people would come across anyway, this is because I have 
adopted the tiddlywiki platform as the key technology I can develop any 
solution on, in the future. In time you will see easier methods to do many 
things, I have a large library in the wings, which I intended to share, If 
mohamad and other has not done too good a job of it before me :) 

I hope my alternative view helps people understand tiddlywiki better.

Regards
Tony



On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 3:59:32 AM UTC+10, Edgaras wrote:
>
> *[Edit] read the original post under the line below*
>
>
> *UPDATED: 2020-05-21*
> *Google Document outlining the strategy for redesign:* *TW Rewamp Outline 
> 
>  *
> *Link to the latest prototype (on Figma design tool): **TW revamp v0.03 
> *
> **
> *Link to the videos of the prototype: **Prototype videos 
> *
> **
>
>
> –––
>
>
>
> Hello everyone!
>
> I've just recently discovered TiddlyWiki (crazy it's been around for 15 
> years already!) and I am very pumped up about it! It's not only a great 
> note taking tool, but it's also a powerful CMS + Static Site Builder!
>
> I think that TW deserves and has a potential of reaching broader 
> audiences! 
>
> However, one of the biggest drawbacks for me is the *design of TW*. And 
> not 

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Joshua Fontany]

I agree with Riz, this is very very good design. Definitely looking forward 
to seeing more from you!

Best,
Joshua F

On Wednesday, May 20, 2020 at 3:40:01 PM UTC-7, Riz wrote:
>
> Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Modern, minimalist, true to TW5 nature 
> and professional. I have been keenly following this community for the past 
> five years, and on the visual aspect of matters, this is the best thing 
> that has happened by a wide margin. 
>
> If there an invisible priority list for stuff to be put into core, I would 
> vote for this to be on the top of it.
>
> Once Jeremy finds his strength back, ping him to this thread and take his 
> view, so that this would be a reality. 
>
> Sincerely,
> Riz.
>
> On Thu, 21 May 2020, 03:56 Edgaras, > 
> wrote:
>
>> Alright, I gave another shot for the prototype. I accept the fact that 
>> redeveloping the core editor might be too big of the task from the 
>> beginning... That's unfortunate, 
>> but I adapted the prototype to keep the current editor:
>>
>> Key changes:
>> - View/edit in two modes instead of one
>> - Moved "Meta info" section down
>> - To mimic the card style, I added a border to the tiddler, so it will be 
>> visible when there are more than one.
>> - Moved favorite start in the same line with tags
>>
>> *Important part about this design is that you can edit everything on 
>> tiddler right away without going to edit mode, except the main body of the 
>> tiddler, that requires editing mode.*
>>
>> *See the video 
>>  *
>> *And try the prototype in Figma 
>> 
>>  *
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>> Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/gX0o8j7Coa8/unsubscribe.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
>> tiddl...@googlegroups.com .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/085df749-0bad-4ede-9af5-f1d28461eced%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/a65ca68b-b004-49f7-8e72-1bf36f77768f%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Modern, minimalist, true to TW5 nature and
professional. I have been keenly following this community for the past five
years, and on the visual aspect of matters, this is the best thing that has
happened by a wide margin.

If there an invisible priority list for stuff to be put into core, I would
vote for this to be on the top of it.

Once Jeremy finds his strength back, ping him to this thread and take his
view, so that this would be a reality.

Sincerely,
Riz.

On Thu, 21 May 2020, 03:56 Edgaras,  wrote:

> Alright, I gave another shot for the prototype. I accept the fact that
> redeveloping the core editor might be too big of the task from the
> beginning... That's unfortunate,
> but I adapted the prototype to keep the current editor:
>
> Key changes:
> - View/edit in two modes instead of one
> - Moved "Meta info" section down
> - To mimic the card style, I added a border to the tiddler, so it will be
> visible when there are more than one.
> - Moved favorite start in the same line with tags
>
> *Important part about this design is that you can edit everything on
> tiddler right away without going to edit mode, except the main body of the
> tiddler, that requires editing mode.*
>
> *See the video
>  *
> *And try the prototype in Figma
> 
>  *
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/gX0o8j7Coa8/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
> tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/085df749-0bad-4ede-9af5-f1d28461eced%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAO0b0pHzR5%3D0WTNY1AZrJuVDhoe%2BmQS9nL2fx6DBEz99e%2BpDCw%40mail.gmail.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Alright, I gave another shot for the prototype. I accept the fact that 
redeveloping the core editor might be too big of the task from the 
beginning... That's unfortunate, 
but I adapted the prototype to keep the current editor:

Key changes:
- View/edit in two modes instead of one
- Moved "Meta info" section down
- To mimic the card style, I added a border to the tiddler, so it will be 
visible when there are more than one.
- Moved favorite start in the same line with tags

*Important part about this design is that you can edit everything on 
tiddler right away without going to edit mode, except the main body of the 
tiddler, that requires editing mode.*

*See the video 
 *
*And try the prototype in Figma 

 *

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/085df749-0bad-4ede-9af5-f1d28461eced%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Very good article by Typora founder, why it does not make sense to have 
view/edit as different modes:

https://abnerlee.github.io/typora/2015/03/11/why-typora/

Bautiful

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/9be983e3-9096-4cbd-b20f-423ae8a8217f%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

Glad you find Tekan amusing.

So if let me try and summarise.

If markdown was the main markup system, users would find TW5 more
accessible?

On Tue, 19 May 2020, 05:41 Edgaras,  wrote:

> Mat I think there is a bit of difference tinkering in tiddlytext and
> something widespread and future proof as html/css/js.
> Also there are much more resources, people had every single problem
> thousands of times.
>
> I strongly agree with central place where to publish stuff. Imagine if
> there was a website where top solutions are promoted, voted up. Those would
> get attention and be improved by donations and contributions. Over the
> month with TW I kept discovering great stuff, just couple of days ago I
> discovered Tekan
>  by *Riz.
> *Truly amazing example of how TW can be anything.
>
> –––
>
> *Riz *I am up for a discussion and feedback! I really want to help TW.
> Let me try to explain.
>
> Given that HTML is the target for both
>
> This is not true for me. I only want to publish some of my notes. It's
> important for me to also build a personal knowledge system. With the right
> format and organisation system Niklas Luhmann developed his "second brain"
> – the Zettelkasten modular noting system just by using paper notes. I want
> to achieve similar with modular human readable, file based digital notes.
> Markdown fits perfectly for this purpose, the format is universal, very
> portable, supported by many editors, systems. So I strongly agree with Scott
> here. Markdown is a strong original readable format. I like the idea of
> starting with Markdown (in some cases JSON or CSV) as a base data/model
> format
> and then add logic and structure with html/css/js.
>
> Next very important thing for me is the editing experience. If I spend a
> lot of time writing, I want it to be pleasant and calm. That's why I love
> Typora , a super minimal text editor, doing
> one job well – editing content. The editing interface is separated from my
> data files, I can change to another editor at any time I want. That being
> said, I wish Typora had some of the
> RoamResearch superpowers. And funny enough something like that was
> released couple of months ago – Obsidian . I think
> in time we will see more and more editors that are made
> for interconnected thoughts, complex thinking.
>
> I also wish TW would become like that one day – a tool that connects well
> with other workflows and not a monolith system (that is super modular but
> internally).
>
> I use VSCode but it's optimized for coding and not for writing. The
> interface is way too complex for a writing tool.
>
> Maybe that's another thing that I would like to see in TW – much more
> separation between building the tool/tinkering and writing, thinking
> connecting thoughts. It's like when you are driving a car you don't wan to
> see all the engines and electronics (while some people still would enjoy
> that).
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/gX0o8j7Coa8/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
> tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/75d1df71-630e-4940-a7bd-5457dee823b4%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAO0b0pFAG%2BBgfunT-7kRzbs3qj3oVcoRCqDAn9JfJuFQLN%3DNpQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Mat I think there is a bit of difference tinkering in tiddlytext and 
something widespread and future proof as html/css/js. 
Also there are much more resources, people had every single problem 
thousands of times. 

I strongly agree with central place where to publish stuff. Imagine if 
there was a website where top solutions are promoted, voted up. Those would 
get attention and be improved by donations and contributions. Over the 
month with TW I kept discovering great stuff, just couple of days ago I 
discovered Tekan 
 by *Riz. 
*Truly 
amazing example of how TW can be anything.

–––

*Riz *I am up for a discussion and feedback! I really want to help TW. Let 
me try to explain.

Given that HTML is the target for both

This is not true for me. I only want to publish some of my notes. It's 
important for me to also build a personal knowledge system. With the right 
format and organisation system Niklas Luhmann developed his "second brain" 
– the Zettelkasten modular noting system just by using paper notes. I want 
to achieve similar with modular human readable, file based digital notes. 
Markdown fits perfectly for this purpose, the format is universal, very 
portable, supported by many editors, systems. So I strongly agree with Scott 
here. Markdown is a strong original readable format. I like the idea of 
starting with Markdown (in some cases JSON or CSV) as a base data/model 
format 
and then add logic and structure with html/css/js.

Next very important thing for me is the editing experience. If I spend a 
lot of time writing, I want it to be pleasant and calm. That's why I love 
Typora , a super minimal text editor, doing
one job well – editing content. The editing interface is separated from my 
data files, I can change to another editor at any time I want. That being 
said, I wish Typora had some of the
RoamResearch superpowers. And funny enough something like that was released 
couple of months ago – Obsidian . I think in time we 
will see more and more editors that are made 
for interconnected thoughts, complex thinking. 

I also wish TW would become like that one day – a tool that connects well 
with other workflows and not a monolith system (that is super modular but 
internally).

I use VSCode but it's optimized for coding and not for writing. The 
interface is way too complex for a writing tool. 

Maybe that's another thing that I would like to see in TW – much more 
separation between building the tool/tinkering and writing, thinking 
connecting thoughts. It's like when you are driving a car you don't wan to 
see all the engines and electronics (while some people still would enjoy 
that).

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/75d1df71-630e-4940-a7bd-5457dee823b4%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Scott Sauyet]

On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 3:51:00 PM UTC-4, Riz wrote:
>
>
> Personally I do not see much difference between markdown markup and 
tiddlywiki markup.

The very first thing I do on starting anything new with tiddlywiki is to 
install the Markdown plugin.  I spend a great deal of time on 
GitHub/GitLab, on StackOverflow and many other places where some flavor of 
Markdown is the default.  It's not simply muscle memory -- although that's 
part of it -- but the simplicity is quite welcome.


> Given that HTML is the target for both, ultimately what markup we choose 
is pointless.

Ah, but I think of HTML as one possible viewing target.  I read Markdown in 
many ways, and one of the most common ways is in the original format.  
Where Markdown really shines is in how readable the basic format is without 
any translation.

Of course tiddlywiki markup is much more powerful, and all the TW tools are 
at your disposal when working in it.  So for anything more complicated, I 
use it.  But for writing basic text I've found nothing more useful than 
Markdown.

  -- Scott

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/88b42394-a1c5-424f-8b03-2facca2f9226%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

Hi Edgaras,

I respect your decision. Tiddlywiki is a great tool, but people are
different with different priorities and no single tool can meet them all. I
hope you find joy in your new note taking system.

As someone interested in improving tiddlywiki to a point where people like
you will be able to use it more comfortably, I would like to know more
specifically what did you find difficult  to accomplish.

I am asking this because I see that your current choice is markdown and
eleventy. Personally I do not see much difference between markdown markup
and tiddlywiki markup. Given that HTML is the target for both, ultimately
what markup we choose is pointless. Given that basic characteristics
offered by markdown and wikitext are the same, and wikitext offers more
possibilities (which are optional), I often find it interesting that users
prefer markdown.
You are clearly comfortable using terminal. So static site generation is
not an issue too.

Again, I am not criticising your choices. We are all knowledge workers and
what works for us is what we ought to choose. I am merely trying to satisfy
my curiosity.

You seems like a person who would enjoy writing in a proper text editor
than in browser. So I will leave you with a suggestion. Use VSCode and
TiddlyBob next time you want to give tiddlywiki a try. Bob will update what
you time in text editor almost instantaneously in browser, so that you can
see the finished product. VSCode has its own snippet manager and tons of
other useful plugins.

Sincerely,
Riz

On Mon, 18 May 2020, 23:52 Edgaras Benediktavicus, 
wrote:

> *Riz *I put this project on pause. I wanted mainly to address the editor
> experience, but seems like it's a huge job to do. The learning curve of
> TiddlyWiki is too big for me for now. I might come back to this project in
> the future. I had a fun month with TiddlyWiki, but it was also very time
> consuming to make it work the way I wanted and to adjust the looks and
> feels.
>
> For now I am exploring other ways to organise and publish my notes. Typora
> (.md) files + 11ty static site builder (html, css, js) + espanso text
> expander for code snippets. I like the idea of having my notes by default
> as seperate static files on my computer in a universal format. And I am
> more comfortable with html/css/js than learning tiddlytext.
>
> At this point in time the learning curve is way to high for me to optimize
> the interface and workflow the way I want with TiddlyWiki.
>
> I think TiddlyWiki is still a super tool and is very promising with all
> what's done. But at the moment a bit too inconsistent, difficult to use.
> Plugins help but then everything is very patchy.
>
> I know for many people TW is a hobby. But I just want a tool that works, I
> don't want to tinker with it every day, keep fixing bugs and
> inconsistencies.
>
> Therefore, I think it requires a different organised approach to asses the
> vision and make it more modern, matching the nowadays needs and
> expectations (RoamResearch, Obsidian content editor, static site
> builders...).
>
> If somebody is serious about this, I would be willing to join to help
> shaping the new vision and design in the future.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/gX0o8j7Coa8/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
> tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/150fc9a4-7675-4799-a6aa-ce6966ce9ceb%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/CAO0b0pHCLYzvtSyF2X6isAH%2BzjSOE5Niwz79h%3Dth3dHvjESUUQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

['BirgitB' via TiddlyWiki]

I can confirm most of what has been said about the lack of documentation or 
the abundance of obsolete documentation. I started looking into TiddlyWiki 
on April 26 and I wasted quite some time figuring out what to do and what 
not to do. Luckily I discovered the videos made by Francis Meetze (?) on 
the second or third day.

Although the broad picture is still confusing me, I managed to solve all 
but one issue on my wish list. I have configured an application that works 
for me, although my coding skills are next to nothing.

As I had written in an email to Jeremy a couple of days ago, I would like 
to redistribute my "application" to the members of the largest German 
association of translators and interpreters, approx. 7,000 members. At the 
same time, I will publish an article about TiddlyWiki5 in our trade 
journal, and maybe also some kind of manual on the first and most important 
steps.

In order to make sure I get everything right and do not publish obsolete 
information it would be great if someone could help me. If possible, 
preferrably someone who can read German. If not, I can provide an English 
translation.

Thanks in advance,
Birgit






Am Montag, 18. Mai 2020 21:20:01 UTC+2 schrieb Mat:
>
> Edgaras wrote:
>>
>> [...] I just want a tool that works, I don't want to tinker with it every 
>> day, keep fixing bugs and inconsistencies. 
>>
>
> One tinkers to make it fit ones needs though. The typical alternative is 
> that you can't tinker with it and that it therefore compromises your needs.
>
> IMO the lack of turn-key TiddlyWiki solutions is a consequence of us not 
> having any central place where to publish stuff. If this, or something 
> equivalent, existed we would see *applications *i.e turn-key versions of 
> tiddlywiki for different use cases. Currently we have official so called 
> *editions* that are more tools than applications, and the applications 
> that people do publish just fade away as nobody finds or hears of them a 
> week later. If there was something like an app store, there would be 
> encouragement to actually publish stuff and continue to develop it and I'm 
> sure more key-turn solutions would come.
>
> <:-)
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/bd8b02dc-9ef6-4df8-a0f4-2f6aa640c3ab%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

Edgaras wrote:
>
> [...] I just want a tool that works, I don't want to tinker with it every 
> day, keep fixing bugs and inconsistencies. 
>

One tinkers to make it fit ones needs though. The typical alternative is 
that you can't tinker with it and that it therefore compromises your needs.

IMO the lack of turn-key TiddlyWiki solutions is a consequence of us not 
having any central place where to publish stuff. If this, or something 
equivalent, existed we would see *applications *i.e turn-key versions of 
tiddlywiki for different use cases. Currently we have official so called 
*editions* that are more tools than applications, and the applications that 
people do publish just fade away as nobody finds or hears of them a week 
later. If there was something like an app store, there would be 
encouragement to actually publish stuff and continue to develop it and I'm 
sure more key-turn solutions would come.

<:-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/6d48ffa5-9598-4d6c-bf1f-eb01a82f259a%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Diego Mesa]

I *strongly* agree with Edgaras statement:

At this point in time the learning curve is way to high for me to optimize 
> the interface and workflow the way I want with TiddlyWiki.
>
> I think TiddlyWiki is still a super tool and is very promising with all 
> what's done. But at the moment a bit too inconsistent, difficult to use. 
> Plugins help but then everything is very patchy.
>
> I know for many people TW is a hobby. But I just want a tool that works, I 
> don't want to tinker with it every day, keep fixing bugs and 
> inconsistencies. 
>
> Therefore, I think it requires a different organised approach to asses the 
> vision and make it more modern, matching the nowadays needs and 
> expectations (RoamResearch, Obsidian content editor, static site 
> builders...).
>


Versions of this are often  echoed by new users! 



On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 1:22:10 PM UTC-5, Edgaras wrote:
>
> *Riz *I put this project on pause. I wanted mainly to address the editor 
> experience, but seems like it's a huge job to do. The learning curve of 
> TiddlyWiki is too big for me for now. I might come back to this project in 
> the future. I had a fun month with TiddlyWiki, but it was also very time 
> consuming to make it work the way I wanted and to adjust the looks and 
> feels.
>
> For now I am exploring other ways to organise and publish my notes. Typora 
> (.md) files + 11ty static site builder (html, css, js) + espanso text 
> expander for code snippets. I like the idea of having my notes by default 
> as seperate static files on my computer in a universal format. And I am 
> more comfortable with html/css/js than learning tiddlytext.
>
> At this point in time the learning curve is way to high for me to optimize 
> the interface and workflow the way I want with TiddlyWiki.
>
> I think TiddlyWiki is still a super tool and is very promising with all 
> what's done. But at the moment a bit too inconsistent, difficult to use. 
> Plugins help but then everything is very patchy.
>
> I know for many people TW is a hobby. But I just want a tool that works, I 
> don't want to tinker with it every day, keep fixing bugs and 
> inconsistencies. 
>
> Therefore, I think it requires a different organised approach to asses the 
> vision and make it more modern, matching the nowadays needs and 
> expectations (RoamResearch, Obsidian content editor, static site 
> builders...).
>
> If somebody is serious about this, I would be willing to join to help 
> shaping the new vision and design in the future.
>
> Cheers.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/ea109560-d9a1-4625-8b1b-a5ceec9ac8c1%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Birthe C]

Edgaras,

I think that is very understandable. I hope that we will see you later on 
if/when you have more time. Afterall you did taste the "fruit".


Birthe

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/a9ddfca3-e0d0-4f3c-aaf6-646338a4efb8%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras Benediktavicus]

*Riz *I put this project on pause. I wanted mainly to address the editor 
experience, but seems like it's a huge job to do. The learning curve of 
TiddlyWiki is too big for me for now. I might come back to this project in 
the future. I had a fun month with TiddlyWiki, but it was also very time 
consuming to make it work the way I wanted and to adjust the looks and 
feels.

For now I am exploring other ways to organise and publish my notes. Typora 
(.md) files + 11ty static site builder (html, css, js) + espanso text 
expander for code snippets. I like the idea of having my notes by default 
as seperate static files on my computer in a universal format. And I am 
more comfortable with html/css/js than learning tiddlytext.

At this point in time the learning curve is way to high for me to optimize 
the interface and workflow the way I want with TiddlyWiki.

I think TiddlyWiki is still a super tool and is very promising with all 
what's done. But at the moment a bit too inconsistent, difficult to use. 
Plugins help but then everything is very patchy.

I know for many people TW is a hobby. But I just want a tool that works, I 
don't want to tinker with it every day, keep fixing bugs and 
inconsistencies. 

Therefore, I think it requires a different organised approach to asses the 
vision and make it more modern, matching the nowadays needs and 
expectations (RoamResearch, Obsidian content editor, static site 
builders...).

If somebody is serious about this, I would be willing to join to help 
shaping the new vision and design in the future.

Cheers.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/150fc9a4-7675-4799-a6aa-ce6966ce9ceb%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Riz]

Status?

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f0b5b555-981e-49f3-884f-aeb6ef65892b%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

Hi Edgaras,

 I think a github repo may be the good option to go! I am not sure if your 
development requires coding in JS or not! but as far as wikitext required I 
think people in the group can help!
 
--Mohammad

On Friday, May 1, 2020 at 11:03:58 PM UTC+4:30, Edgaras wrote:
>
> *Tony *weird you can't access videos! I made them all public!
>
> *Mohammad *I think it's quite far from making the prototype available as 
> a real thing for the users! I am still looking for anyone who would like to 
> join and bit by bit make this as a real thing in TW! Do you have ideas how 
> to make this coding more collaborative? Should I publish this on Github? I 
> am coding, but I am more designer than a developer, so every small feature 
> for me takes 20x time to do :D I would rather spend time where I am 
> efficient – designing and prototyping!
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/fb1fe633-9707-4c62-9929-190a39ff27cf%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

*Tony *weird you can't access videos! I made them all public!

*Mohammad *I think it's quite far from making the prototype available as a 
real thing for the users! I am still looking for anyone who would like to 
join and bit by bit make this as a real thing in TW! Do you have ideas how 
to make this coding more collaborative? Should I publish this on Github? I 
am coding, but I am more designer than a developer, so every small feature 
for me takes 20x time to do :D I would rather spend time where I am 
efficient – designing and prototyping!

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/75797560-8fb3-4aca-8869-4dbe749a5148%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

Edgaras,

 I think the writing now is quite straight forward! I watched the video! 
You need a real prototype to let every user now give a try and send feed 
back on this first part!

--Mohammad

On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 7:40:09 PM UTC+4:30, Edgaras wrote:
>
> Hello *Miha*, thanks for joining the discussion here!
>
> *Miha* and *Tony*, let me reply to you a bit later ;) 
>
> For now I wanted to share with you a quick prototype in vanilla JS I put 
> up today with my quote weak coding skills... But it shows the basic idea of 
> *block/module 
> based editor *(inspired from Notion ;) )
>
> Instead of having all text in one textarea I divided every element 
> (headline, paragraph into seperate textareas that can have a seperate ID). 
> Every block can be later adjusted and every block can have it's own 
> settings:
>
> Video:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/189iDckDDFFl274xU44MxnbRhI9Cq8gp1/view?usp=sharing
>
> Source code:
> https://codepen.io/edgarascom/pen/XWmaLwo
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/22b62b09-2be2-4679-a76e-02faed2b0ff5%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Unfortunately I cant view the video (yet)

Tony

On Friday, 1 May 2020 01:10:09 UTC+10, Edgaras wrote:
>
> Hello *Miha*, thanks for joining the discussion here!
>
> *Miha* and *Tony*, let me reply to you a bit later ;) 
>
> For now I wanted to share with you a quick prototype in vanilla JS I put 
> up today with my quote weak coding skills... But it shows the basic idea of 
> *block/module 
> based editor *(inspired from Notion ;) )
>
> Instead of having all text in one textarea I divided every element 
> (headline, paragraph into seperate textareas that can have a seperate ID). 
> Every block can be later adjusted and every block can have it's own 
> settings:
>
> Video:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/189iDckDDFFl274xU44MxnbRhI9Cq8gp1/view?usp=sharing
>
> Source code:
> https://codepen.io/edgarascom/pen/XWmaLwo
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/9fb25198-0bd8-4f37-ac8d-d03461e98b05%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Hello *Miha*, thanks for joining the discussion here!

*Miha* and *Tony*, let me reply to you a bit later ;) 

For now I wanted to share with you a quick prototype in vanilla JS I put up 
today with my quote weak coding skills... But it shows the basic idea of 
*block/module 
based editor *(inspired from Notion ;) )

Instead of having all text in one textarea I divided every element 
(headline, paragraph into seperate textareas that can have a seperate ID). 
Every block can be later adjusted and every block can have it's own 
settings:

Video:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/189iDckDDFFl274xU44MxnbRhI9Cq8gp1/view?usp=sharing

Source code:
https://codepen.io/edgarascom/pen/XWmaLwo

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/3c1e5450-105a-4599-a0ff-179ad4b06f84%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Miha Lunar]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for those details!

It helps to see how some of my points relate to the inner workings already. 
Note that I was mostly talking in the general sense for the concepts above, so 
many of the things I mentioned could already exist in some form.

I see your point on tiddlers usually being _the_ content and not the ones 
containing it via view templates and tag lists. I have this to some degree as 
well. However for new users, I think there's a big gap between "oh I can enter 
text and make it bold and save it, that's cool" and "I am the master of tag 
based filtered list macros" :D

What the above does point towards is that it would be better if the solution 
was extensible in some way, to support all the custom use cases that arise. Now 
all this could be at first is just a generic view template that you can install 
and that adds this functionality to all tiddlers by default. 

I don't know how useful it would be for experienced users, but for new users I 
think it would help ease them into the syntax and help with writing text-based 
tiddlers.

I want to emphasize here that this would just be a potentially easier way to 
edit simple notes, it should of course integrate with all the existing TW 
functionality - meaning editing text would keep being reactive. The "blocks" I 
was referring to was a shorthand for parts of a note - this might have a big 
(full?) overlap with Widgets, so if it does, just replace block with Widget in 
my previous email ;) 

Best,
Miha

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0947deac-94ca-41fa-99d1-207424bd69ca%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Miha

What comes to mind reading your reply, as a long time user of tiddlywiki, I 
do not experience the issues of mixed wikitext and code, in some ways I 
already have a "blocks" based solution. 
I have no problem transfering text from one wiki to another or a seperate 
system. This is all with vanila tiddlywiki, and it is only a matter of my 
"practices", nothing else.

To achieve what you and others are suggesting can rest on this prior work 
already built in to achieve the results faster.

I will state them succinctly and you can ask for more info as needed.

   - I tend to keep Real text in standard tiddlers with all code in 
   $:/systemTiddlers, macros or view templates use these.
   - I tend to use a view template to display, often conditionally, the 
   content of any standard tiddler, this view template will invoke macros 
   etc... as needed to display the fields and other value. ie they are not 
   placed in the wiki text except in limited circumstances.
   - Many of my tiddler have no text field, this is simply retained for 
   additional notes, all the results come from how the tiddler is tagged or 
   fields it contains, tags are used to get information from elsewhere in the 
   wiki.
   - Tiddlers are my blocks, and the view template assembles them
   - Given this method I can introduce drag and drop reordering if an when 
   desired.
   - I will use the occasional class or macros in my wikitext but they are 
   usually meaningful to the reader and do not distract from the notes.
   - If transferring content from a TiddlyWiki to another location I do not 
   copy the wikitex,t they can't process, I use the following methods
  - Copy and paste the rendered output
  - Print to a text file
  - Print to a PDF
  - Copy the resulting html
  - sometimes paste the copied html as plain text
  - Generate csv formatted text I copy and paste
   

In the editor there is a preview mechanism, additional preview formats can 
be used out of the box or even developed. I use the HTML one to extract 
HTML snipits for use elsewhere, For example we could have a parser that 
provided a "preview" that instead of presenting html, presented raw 
markdown. If you can see something in preview its trival to provide copy to 
clipboard, export or even drag and drop to move content in another format.

I am not sure but when you refer to *Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) * I think 
it may already exist. Its the Widget Tree, Install the plugin "Tools for 
exploring the internals of TiddlyWiki", and edit a complex tiddler, select 
the preview and the Widget Tree Option.

An important point with tiddlywiki is it has a sophisticated set of 
mechanisms that allow changes to be reflected through out your wiki almost 
instantainiously, this is also very efficient because it knows how to 
refresh only what it must refresh, in part by acting only on what is 
visible.

A lot can be built on top of tiddlywiki without the deeper knowledge, 
however if looking to revolutionary changes you will often discover the 
underlying mechanisms already exist. The only cost being understanding and 
making use of these powerful methods. For example the introduction of 
javascript needs to follow the rule that maintain this instantaniouse 
update model.


Regards
Tony


  

On Thursday, 30 April 2020 11:10:32 UTC+10, Miha Lunar wrote:
>
> Hi Edgaras and others! This is a great initiative! 
>
> I really like these ideas and the minimalistic mockups look really nice. 
> Before finding TW I was using Notion for a while and I think it has a 
> really neat UX that's complex under the hood, but presented nicely. 
>
> Re: mixing wikitext and Markdown: They are fundamentally incompatible in 
> some areas, e.g. # in MD means header, while in WT it's an ordered list 
> item. Initially I also wanted to just use Markdown, but nowadays I feel 
> like wikitext might actually be "the better Markdown". That's bad because 
> then it's harder to champion for the more mainstream Markdown :) 
>
> Re: modeless editing: I feel like this is a really powerful concept that 
> brought text and layout editing to the masses. At the same time, I believe 
> having an editable readable text "source" for a document is powerful in 
> terms of: 
> • reproducibility - you can copy paste a section of the source to someone 
> and they will get the same thing barring side effects 
> • consistency - all the state is visible, so it's harder to get into a 
> weird state where some hidden format or layout is affecting your writing 
> unintentionally 
> • flexibility - since code is usually text too, you can essentially have a 
> way more flexible system if you can also write "code" within text (wikitext 
> has this with transclusions, etc., LaTeX too) 
>
> That said, as you mentioned, looking at / parsing all this additional code 
> all the time can be taxing, as as much as we want them to be, human brains 
> aren't really great computer grammar parsers :) 
>
> This 

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Miha Lunar]

Hi Edgaras and others! This is a great initiative!

I really like these ideas and the minimalistic mockups look really nice. Before 
finding TW I was using Notion for a while and I think it has a really neat UX 
that's complex under the hood, but presented nicely. 

Re: mixing wikitext and Markdown: They are fundamentally incompatible in some 
areas, e.g. # in MD means header, while in WT it's an ordered list item. 
Initially I also wanted to just use Markdown, but nowadays I feel like wikitext 
might actually be "the better Markdown". That's bad because then it's harder to 
champion for the more mainstream Markdown :)

Re: modeless editing: I feel like this is a really powerful concept that 
brought text and layout editing to the masses. At the same time, I believe 
having an editable readable text "source" for a document is powerful in terms 
of:
• reproducibility - you can copy paste a section of the source to someone and 
they will get the same thing barring side effects
• consistency - all the state is visible, so it's harder to get into a weird 
state where some hidden format or layout is affecting your writing 
unintentionally
• flexibility - since code is usually text too, you can essentially have a way 
more flexible system if you can also write "code" within text (wikitext has 
this with transclusions, etc., LaTeX too)

That said, as you mentioned, looking at / parsing all this additional code all 
the time can be taxing, as as much as we want them to be, human brains aren't 
really great computer grammar parsers :)

This brings me to what you and others mentioned and what I believe Notion got 
really right. The concept of logical blocks a page / note consists of. This can 
be a paragraph, a link, an image, a table, etc. In Notion it's natural to add 
these, you type a / and up pops a small non-intrusive command search popup, 
where you just search for a thing to add.

These quick-add slash commands would be essential when it comes to the unified 
view / edit flow imo. On top of that add drag and drop reordering logic and 
you're 80% there.

So how do you reconcile having source editing and Notion-like blocks? I would 
start by keeping the source and having a special type of a UI view that is 
smart enough to modify the source directly through UI actions like typing in 
the middle of some text, adding a new block (read: header, image, tiddler link, 
transclusion, anything that's a toolbar button right now) with a slash command, 
or reordering some blocks in the tiddler (e.g. dragging a header a few 
paragraphs higher would move it in source text a few lines up).

Now for a little nerd talk. Jeremy, I hope you're listening ☺ 

Technically, this would have to be done carefully as to not corrupt or change 
the source in any unexpected way. The complexity depends a little on how 
wikitext is parsed currently. If it's the standard lexer-parser setup where you 
get an Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) somewhere in the middle before you convert it 
into HTML it would already help a lot.

One interesting feature that many parsers usually don't care about is that we 
would need is for the AST to be losslessly reversible back into wikitext 
(including whitespace, comments, everything). That way we would be able to 
operate on the source in a safe and structured manner without losing any extra 
stuff in it.

To be able to visually link the blocks back to their source text, we would need 
to track all the up-to-date character ranges for the parsed tokens / AST leaves 
and carry their ids up to the UI / HTML elements used to display them. Then 
when you e.g. have a list of images and you drag an image, the UI knows of the 
hierarchy behind the display (from the AST) and at the same time knows how to 
modify the source text (by the character ranges in each AST element) to produce 
the desired modified output.

Nerd mode off.

Clearly you won't have a UI that allows you to edit every single wikitext 
feature including transclusions, macros, etc. on day one. But I see great value 
in having even just bold, italic, headers and links as an MVP and blackboxing 
everything that is not supported.  Since the source wikitext would remain, you 
could always switch to the source view for more advanced stuff.

Now if we entertain this modeless direct editing experience some more, I can 
imagine all the blackboxed blocks turning into inline source code editors. 
Transclusions could provide a way for editing the source tiddler directly by 
showing a nested UI in the context of the transcluded tiddler with some border 
or whatever showing up to tell you which one it is.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but it's definitely achievable, especially if 
you limit the scope of what to do initially. :) 

Welp, I spent too much time writing this brain dump, so I hope it gave some 
ideas to someone at least. :) 

Best, 
Miha

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe 

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Edgaras,

Check out the tool in this thread. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/tiddlywiki/wTcmMSy-zHc

I think you may be able to use it.

Regards
Tony

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 11:59:04 PM UTC+10, Edgaras wrote:
>
> *Tony* yes I think we do and we will get even more aligned in time!
>
> I truly respect all work, considerations, the whole iterative and 
> collaborative process of developing TW as a community! And I respect the 
> strict enough principles, that are open minded, but also preventing 
> everything from scattering, and actually being able to manage this 
> complexity! It's truly amazing and again I might not know all things that's 
> been considered or that exist already.
>
> When I am prototyping I am just trying my best to listen for all of you 
> and combine with the way I see software design and visualise the ideas, so 
> they can be reflected upon and iterated again. This is the process of 
> exploration and creativity for the benefit of possible improvements. By no 
> means I am trying to invent something new, in fact I believe innovation is 
> about structuring the smallest existing pieces into something that improves 
> something. Therefore, I hope essentially the most things of this new 
> theme/plugin will be reused from what exist. I also hope when the prototype 
> and the design system develops enough, we will have some collaboratively 
> well thought through design decisions made, I hope there will be some 
> developers and TW experts who will want to make this real and coded. I 
> would also eventually attempt to do it on my own, but I just expect it 
> would take me 20x times longer and harder to do so... But I am a bit of 
> coder myself and I can definitely understand how things work and tweak 
> things.
>
> As a designer I am primarily an advocate for the user/human experience and 
> enabling people to achieve outcomes they strive for with minimum effort. 
> Judging from the global adoption of TW (knowing the potential), from the 
> comments of many of us, my personal experiences as a new user and 
> professional expertise in software design – I let myself to make an 
> educated guess – some people groups and their needs are still underserved. 
>
> The design theory also tells – people have Liquid Expectations 
>  that 
> influence their experience and adoption of any tool/service. Liquid 
> Expectations means our ever changing perceptions of things, and our 
> tendency to draw parallels between things. In terms of the interfaces, that 
> means, if people perceive Google as an easy to use search engine, Netflix 
> as a new way to get a movie in a second on demand or Uber/Lyft is the way 
> to order a taxi conveniently – they will expect that in every next service 
> of a similar category. 
>
> Same with information management systems/tools. If people are used to 
> certain way of working, they will expect that also from TiddlyWiki, even if 
> it might be much more powerful and superior to many systems out there. 
> Besides that, there are some general human-computer interface principles 
> that comes from studies in human cognition. Certain mental and physical 
> abilities and tendencies like a cognitive load, mental models, haptics, 
> aesthetics, visual perception (Gestalt Laws), eye physical vision etc. 
> influences the way we use technology. Also it depends on a context...
>
> Just a small example, yesterday I bought Quine 2 app to use TW on my 
> iPhone. I was in bed taking notes. And it was so difficult to use TW on my 
> phone. The text sizes were small in most place it hurt my eyes, it was hard 
> to tap on many elements, everything was constantly scrolling I kept loosing 
> track where I am... Yet, being kind of geeky and loving TW I kept going. I 
> think not everyone can ignore the experience and depend directly on the 
> power of the tool. 
>
> Again, with my input want to advocate for the human experience of using 
> the tool that can support every person in this digital knowledge work and 
> life age.
>
> I hope we can all work this out, continuing being open minded, keep 
> developing the legendary TW and make it even more approachable for broader 
> audiences outside tech world!;) I hope one day soon even my dad will use TW 
> to manage his work and life digitally ;D 
>
> Cheers,
> Edgaras
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/078d36c4-4068-46d9-aa92-814a549035d7%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Edgaras,

Lovely to have you in the community with these ideas and approach.

We have a number of times raised the issue of "cognitive load" in wikitext, 
widgets and macros as we try and improve it and yes this is critical for 
new users.

I look forward to your help with Human centred approach to support the 
systems thinking and other approaches here.

Unfortunatly you liquid Expectations link says "Error establishing a 
database connection" but you describe it well.

Regards
Tony

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 11:59:04 PM UTC+10, Edgaras wrote:
>
> *Tony* yes I think we do and we will get even more aligned in time!
>
> I truly respect all work, considerations, the whole iterative and 
> collaborative process of developing TW as a community! And I respect the 
> strict enough principles, that are open minded, but also preventing 
> everything from scattering, and actually being able to manage this 
> complexity! It's truly amazing and again I might not know all things that's 
> been considered or that exist already.
>
> When I am prototyping I am just trying my best to listen for all of you 
> and combine with the way I see software design and visualise the ideas, so 
> they can be reflected upon and iterated again. This is the process of 
> exploration and creativity for the benefit of possible improvements. By no 
> means I am trying to invent something new, in fact I believe innovation is 
> about structuring the smallest existing pieces into something that improves 
> something. Therefore, I hope essentially the most things of this new 
> theme/plugin will be reused from what exist. I also hope when the prototype 
> and the design system develops enough, we will have some collaboratively 
> well thought through design decisions made, I hope there will be some 
> developers and TW experts who will want to make this real and coded. I 
> would also eventually attempt to do it on my own, but I just expect it 
> would take me 20x times longer and harder to do so... But I am a bit of 
> coder myself and I can definitely understand how things work and tweak 
> things.
>
> As a designer I am primarily an advocate for the user/human experience and 
> enabling people to achieve outcomes they strive for with minimum effort. 
> Judging from the global adoption of TW (knowing the potential), from the 
> comments of many of us, my personal experiences as a new user and 
> professional expertise in software design – I let myself to make an 
> educated guess – some people groups and their needs are still underserved. 
>
> The design theory also tells – people have Liquid Expectations 
>  that 
> influence their experience and adoption of any tool/service. Liquid 
> Expectations means our ever changing perceptions of things, and our 
> tendency to draw parallels between things. In terms of the interfaces, that 
> means, if people perceive Google as an easy to use search engine, Netflix 
> as a new way to get a movie in a second on demand or Uber/Lyft is the way 
> to order a taxi conveniently – they will expect that in every next service 
> of a similar category. 
>
> Same with information management systems/tools. If people are used to 
> certain way of working, they will expect that also from TiddlyWiki, even if 
> it might be much more powerful and superior to many systems out there. 
> Besides that, there are some general human-computer interface principles 
> that comes from studies in human cognition. Certain mental and physical 
> abilities and tendencies like a cognitive load, mental models, haptics, 
> aesthetics, visual perception (Gestalt Laws), eye physical vision etc. 
> influences the way we use technology. Also it depends on a context...
>
> Just a small example, yesterday I bought Quine 2 app to use TW on my 
> iPhone. I was in bed taking notes. And it was so difficult to use TW on my 
> phone. The text sizes were small in most place it hurt my eyes, it was hard 
> to tap on many elements, everything was constantly scrolling I kept loosing 
> track where I am... Yet, being kind of geeky and loving TW I kept going. I 
> think not everyone can ignore the experience and depend directly on the 
> power of the tool. 
>
> Again, with my input want to advocate for the human experience of using 
> the tool that can support every person in this digital knowledge work and 
> life age.
>
> I hope we can all work this out, continuing being open minded, keep 
> developing the legendary TW and make it even more approachable for broader 
> audiences outside tech world!;) I hope one day soon even my dad will use TW 
> to manage his work and life digitally ;D 
>
> Cheers,
> Edgaras
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

*Tony* yes I think we do and we will get even more aligned in time!

I truly respect all work, considerations, the whole iterative and 
collaborative process of developing TW as a community! And I respect the 
strict enough principles, that are open minded, but also preventing 
everything from scattering, and actually being able to manage this 
complexity! It's truly amazing and again I might not know all things that's 
been considered or that exist already.

When I am prototyping I am just trying my best to listen for all of you and 
combine with the way I see software design and visualise the ideas, so they 
can be reflected upon and iterated again. This is the process of 
exploration and creativity for the benefit of possible improvements. By no 
means I am trying to invent something new, in fact I believe innovation is 
about structuring the smallest existing pieces into something that improves 
something. Therefore, I hope essentially the most things of this new 
theme/plugin will be reused from what exist. I also hope when the prototype 
and the design system develops enough, we will have some collaboratively 
well thought through design decisions made, I hope there will be some 
developers and TW experts who will want to make this real and coded. I 
would also eventually attempt to do it on my own, but I just expect it 
would take me 20x times longer and harder to do so... But I am a bit of 
coder myself and I can definitely understand how things work and tweak 
things.

As a designer I am primarily an advocate for the user/human experience and 
enabling people to achieve outcomes they strive for with minimum effort. 
Judging from the global adoption of TW (knowing the potential), from the 
comments of many of us, my personal experiences as a new user and 
professional expertise in software design – I let myself to make an 
educated guess – some people groups and their needs are still underserved. 

The design theory also tells – people have Liquid Expectations 
 that 
influence their experience and adoption of any tool/service. Liquid 
Expectations means our ever changing perceptions of things, and our 
tendency to draw parallels between things. In terms of the interfaces, that 
means, if people perceive Google as an easy to use search engine, Netflix 
as a new way to get a movie in a second on demand or Uber/Lyft is the way 
to order a taxi conveniently – they will expect that in every next service 
of a similar category. 

Same with information management systems/tools. If people are used to 
certain way of working, they will expect that also from TiddlyWiki, even if 
it might be much more powerful and superior to many systems out there. 
Besides that, there are some general human-computer interface principles 
that comes from studies in human cognition. Certain mental and physical 
abilities and tendencies like a cognitive load, mental models, haptics, 
aesthetics, visual perception (Gestalt Laws), eye physical vision etc. 
influences the way we use technology. Also it depends on a context...

Just a small example, yesterday I bought Quine 2 app to use TW on my 
iPhone. I was in bed taking notes. And it was so difficult to use TW on my 
phone. The text sizes were small in most place it hurt my eyes, it was hard 
to tap on many elements, everything was constantly scrolling I kept loosing 
track where I am... Yet, being kind of geeky and loving TW I kept going. I 
think not everyone can ignore the experience and depend directly on the 
power of the tool. 

Again, with my input want to advocate for the human experience of using the 
tool that can support every person in this digital knowledge work and life 
age.

I hope we can all work this out, continuing being open minded, keep 
developing the legendary TW and make it even more approachable for broader 
audiences outside tech world!;) I hope one day soon even my dad will use TW 
to manage his work and life digitally ;D 

Cheers,
Edgaras


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/ff09b9c5-0885-4592-b25b-241e19629291%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Edgaras

I am so glad you are inspired. Your contribution will be appreciated. I think 
We are in furious agreement and share your visions.

Many of your ideas have had some consideration over recent years here and its 
good to see that you have insight into these issues even although you are new 
to tiddlywiki. The truth is tiddlywiki as at the leading edge of personal 
software in my view, if not yet as accessible to the general public as we wish. 
Tiddlywiki also has a history of absorbing and reinventing meaningful advances.

 Many of us are skilled in diverse areas and expect very different things. 
>From academics and authors to hackers and to Do list users. 

Jeremy is the creator and has maintained some strict principals that have got 
us so far with each advance expanding possibilities exponentially. There are 
conceptual leaps needed for many to come to terms with tiddlywiki, but someone 
with your broad insight will find much can be plugged in to the platform. In 
some ways it is self documented, an important principal, but this sometimes, 
results less general (although not dummed down) documentation.

the best way is to learn its mechanisiums and build a plugin or edition that 
demonstrates new solutions. If there is a gap that can be addressed in the core 
tell us about it, but more often than not someone will have a method or a 
workaround.

It has being a long standing tradition to encourage people to search for 
solutions already there, but we ask do not hesitate to ask questions. I am 
often delighted at the number of different and elegant solutions that come 
forward. 

This is my experienced viewpoint but others may have quite different view 
points.

I will restate, being able to generate sites is only one opportunity, although 
it has inspired many new members recently.

I believe its key advantage is how any change can be immediately reflected 
throughout the whole wiki extremely efficently. This is more powerful than most 
people recognise.

Also despite the server options, the single file wiki is also an importiant 
principal and again results in massive advantages. Although it is a rule that 
can be broken, in a particular instance it will always remain a key principal.

Count on my support, I hope my words help yourself and others gain insight to 
the current culture here including our openness to new ideas and cultural 
evolution.

Regards
Tony

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/3c0b027e-6c52-45c7-82c1-455f6a9051d5%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Thank you for in the depth feedback peeps! This really helps to consider 
more aspects and improve the design.

––

> For default it is not a good idea because the user needs to understand the 
> concept of tiddlers and the framing helps with this conceptualization.

*Mat* is see what you mean now! I agree with you and maybe even in this 
theme, tiddlers should stay modular, and have the story view, it has many 
advantages! There are few things that bothers me in the story view and I 
want to address those. For example, I loose track of navigation when I jump 
from one to another tiddler. Maybe I need arrows <   > so I can quickly 
navigate from where I've been before and combine with breadcrumbs. I 
already have that in the prototype. Few other features that could help, 
there could be ☑️ *two icons that switches the view*: one is showing the 
whole opened tiddlers storyview river, another one – focused on the latest 
open tiddle. In that way you can focus on writing in one, but still switch 
to another view to read other tiddles.

But... which mode is it we see in the demo/recording? Edit or View mode? 
> How do I switch between these modes? 

That's what I am trying to challenge a bit. Viewing and editing could be 
the same mode. When we tab or click we instantly switch between different 
fields to edit in a tiddle. The save happens right when you switch.

It is very elegant but in what way is it simpler?

You are right about tags, it's almost exactly how it is now, just cleaned 
up a bit. And yes I think ☑️ *the dropdown is also needed.*

(This is not seen in the demo, right?)

In the demo I only show that the mentions field is always visible on 
tiddler and says e.g. "21 Mentions". When you click this label you will ☑️ *get 
a searchable dropdown.* I did not yet show that in prototype.

(Not seen in demo, right?)

Yes, you can actually see breadcrubs and <   > arrows to navigate the 
history of viewing in the prototype. it's the top line.

I'm not sure about putting tab All there instead of More. How do you access 
> the other subtabs of More?

This is very good point I have to ☑️ *reconsider the More tab.* Would you 
say you want all subtabs from More tab or only some of them?

Like normal/current TW, right?

Yes, but at this prototype I am considering open another note in place for 
simplicity, instead of opening not in the story-view and scroll down to it. 
But as I wrote above, after your comment I will consider a switch mode 
icon, so you can switch between last opened tiddler and the scroll river 
view.




Mohammad

> Wonderful! I may prefer wikitext instead of markdown :-)

Yes, wikitext is much more powerful, I just wish it was extending (on 
including) the markdown. It's because many people use markdown, so it's 
easy to copy paste from/to other software.
So, ideally I would like to write in wikitext, but be able to write also 
markdown at the same time. For example I prefer "# Headline" than "! 
Headline" but it could work with both?

Thank you for your comments!

–––-

Thomas this is awesome! I like a lot of ideas in your concept, the 
simplicity for reading and different ways to save note based on the context!
I have to note this down and take a closer look at all you features from 
the plugin!

You gave me a lot of thought about the title (I did not actually know that 
it was unique ID). I think it's a great feature of TW, every concept/note 
should be unique, otherwise you refer to another note.
I think in my explored concept I like to have clear titles as 
identification, but of course if you want to write one tiddler and put 
other tiddles as components (is that possible in TW?) the titles should be 
smaller visually.
But it's okay that the embeded tiddles would have H1 or H2, as much as I 
know in HTML5 you can semantically use H1 again, if it's in a sub context.

Hit the return key and get a new block, by default a paragraph, but that 
> can be changed by hitting a shortcut or pressing a button to change the 
> block type. 

This is exactly what I would like to see in TW when editing a tiddler! In 
many modern note apps you can do that. For example in Notion, also ☑️ *every 
paragraph is a block, and the block type can be always changed (paragraph, 
headline, code, embed, quote, list etc.)*. I have to prototype that. It 
would be also cool to have a simple and distinct way to refer a block from 
one tiddler to another (is that possible now???)

I love your search plugin feature! It's amazing, I think that's how it 
should work also! It's intuitive, similar how Apple "Spotlight Search" 
work. ☑️ *I would love to borrow you plugin:)*

I also like you fixed sidebar width. It feels nice and save space.

Thanks for the open minded ideas! I will definitely look more into them!

––-

*Tony* Thank you for your time to feedback, kind comments and challenging 
thoughts! This is helpful.

I think I am relizing more and more that definitely I am not 

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Anne-Laure Le Cunff]

Hi Edgaras,

This demo is amazing! A couple of thoughts:

   - Love the clean design, I find it both relaxing and inviting and could 
   see myself write more with TW with such an interface.
   - Yay for proper markdown integration out of the box! Not a question for 
   you, but more with the developer you will partner with on this, but would 
   it be possible to get both markdown as found in this plugin 
    and autocomplete for internal 
   links as found in TiddlyBlink? They currently don't work together.
   - Maybe move the mentions at the bottom of the writing or somewhere 
   else? I think the dropdown menu at the top may make them feel like a second 
   thought. I think at the bottom of the writing area with area with a little 
   expand/collapse icon may be an interesting option to explore (similar to 
   what Roam did).
   - Even though I agree (as discussed previously) we should not make the 
   settings/tools as central as it currently is in the default TW theme, I 
   don't think there is any link to it at all right now? People will still 
   need access to their settings.

Overall this looks amazing and I'm super excited to follow your progress! 
Thanks so much for your work on this.

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 8:32:26 AM UTC+1, Peter Buyze wrote:
>
> Regarding the navigation, I installed Ton Gerner's tiddlerbar plug-in 
> because of the same problem you describe. I find the tiddlerbar solved it. 
> When you have many tids open the bar just overflows into an extra line of 
> tabs. 
>
>
>
> 29 Apr 2020, 10:29 by edgar...@gmail.com :
>
> Thank you for in the depth feedback peeps! This really helps to consider 
> more aspects and improve the design.
>
> ––
>
> For default it is not a good idea because the user needs to understand the 
> concept of tiddlers and the framing helps with this conceptualization.
>
> *Mat* is see what you mean now! I agree with you and maybe even in this 
> theme, tiddlers should stay modular, and have the story view, it has many 
> advantages! There are few things that bothers me in the story view and I 
> want to address those. For example, I loose track of navigation when I jump 
> from one to another tiddler. Maybe I need arrows <   > so I can quickly 
> navigate from where I've been before and combine with breadcrumbs. I 
> already have that in the prototype and I can try to prototype 
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f3812ef8-f439-4ec1-93a6-4f90612c95b6%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7c5260c5-d76d-426b-acfe-72b30f31cee7%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

['Peter Buyze' via TiddlyWiki]

Regarding the navigation, I installed Ton Gerner's tiddlerbar plug-in because 
of the same problem you describe. I find the tiddlerbar solved it. When you 
have many tids open the bar just overflows into an extra line of tabs. 


29 Apr 2020, 10:29 by edgaras@gmail.com:

> Thank you for in the depth feedback peeps! This really helps to consider more 
> aspects and improve the design.
>
> ––
>
>> For default it is not a good idea because the user needs to understand the 
>> concept of tiddlers and the framing helps with this conceptualization.
>>
> Mat>  is see what you mean now! I agree with you and maybe even in this 
> theme, tiddlers should stay modular, and have the story view, it has many 
> advantages! There are few things that bothers me in the story view and I want 
> to address those. For example, I loose track of navigation when I jump from 
> one to another tiddler. Maybe I need arrows <   > so I can quickly navigate 
> from where I've been before and combine with breadcrumbs. I already have that 
> in the prototype and I can try to prototype 
>
>
>
>
> --
>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to > tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com> .
>  To view this discussion on the web visit > 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f3812ef8-f439-4ec1-93a6-4f90612c95b6%40googlegroups.com
>  
> >
>  .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/M63qQkE--3-2%40tutamail.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Thank you for in the depth feedback peeps! This really helps to consider 
more aspects and improve the design.

––

> For default it is not a good idea because the user needs to understand the 
> concept of tiddlers and the framing helps with this conceptualization.

*Mat* is see what you mean now! I agree with you and maybe even in this 
theme, tiddlers should stay modular, and have the story view, it has many 
advantages! There are few things that bothers me in the story view and I 
want to address those. For example, I loose track of navigation when I jump 
from one to another tiddler. Maybe I need arrows <   > so I can quickly 
navigate from where I've been before and combine with breadcrumbs. I 
already have that in the prototype and I can try to prototype 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f3812ef8-f439-4ec1-93a6-4f90612c95b6%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Edgaras,

I am very keen on many of your ideas, please proceed with this enthusiasm. 
I would however like to share some things I am aware of that may help 
inform you of existing options in tiddlywiki; I will gust dump them because 
to address them in detail would be too much.

   - There are a number of radically different views available for 
   tiddlywiki including one that looks like trello, Murri which can work even 
   across multiple screens, JDs material plugin that includes buttons for use 
   on mobile and more.
   - Quite a few people do come to tiddlywiki looking for minimalist 
   versions for specific purposes. The traditional method was to publish 
   different editions, ideally that could also be constructed from a subset of 
   plugins.
   - It is interesting that so many people who have joined us of late, Due 
   to Anne/Product Hunt and perhaps even home isolation for Covid-19 happen to 
   be interested in static sites. This is an importiant direction but to me 
   this is actually only one of many. New users may not yet had a chance to 
   drink the whole bottle of tiddlywiki coolaid.

Let me share with you may primary use of tiddlywiki, although I have many 
planned, this is something no designer can address however smart the layout 
or theme. I am sure many others also do this.

This is to show how you may not yet have imagined TiddlyWiki yet.

   - I had both in tiddlywiki classic and now in TW5 a *personally wiki *I 
   share with no one, will never publish.
   - It is a project manager, 
   - To do list and knowledge repository. It has personal records, ideas 
   and projects. It evolves with my needs 
   - It has planning and time frame handling, menus, custom link sets.
   - It helps me build and record work flows and algorithms, instructions 
   and references. 

Another key wiki rins on Windows TiddlyDesktop and it interacts with my 
computer, folders, files links and supports automation, network 
troubleshooting and more.

this is not at all to diminish your approach, but perhaps even to broaden 
the possibilities further.

 

>
> You are already mentioning bunch of great points:
>
>>
>>- TiddlyWiki can already do or be many things
>>
>>
>>- This presents a dilemma, because how do you set a basic standard 
>>   look for a chameleon? 
>>
>> This is why I am so excited about, it's super powerful, but somehow it 
> seems a bit overwhelming, with all the features shouting for the 
> importance. The tool could be as blank as it can be, while displaying first 
> possible actions, and then introducing complexity as you engage within a 
> context. 
>

My above points try and express this in more detail, but this is the reason 
your Ideas should be able to be implemented on top of tiddlywiki. The truth 
is we need to both target the specific and remain thoughtful of the global 
lets we be overwhelmed with complexity. Jeremy has navigated a treacherous 
course to maintain backwards compatibility and continue to capture the 
evolving power. One result is however there are plenty of mature ways to 
integrate new ideas, such as your. 
 

>
>
>>- TiddlyWiki  is the answer to so many questions, but which question 
>>are you trying to answer?
>>
>>
>>- There are already innovative tiddlywiki layouts like a trello look 
>>alike, the Murri plugin and much more
>>
>> As I see it, TW should be as it is – super powerful personal notebook, 
> with a possibility to quickly and simply publish static website, as if 
> possible (don't know much about it) a collaborative writing tool. Some of 
> the things that I see are missing:
>

Not all these things are missing, you have just not found them yet, perhaps 
they can be better and more readily available, but we value new 
perspectives so maintain your passion and expectations.
 

> I've seen some of TW themes, but it feels more like as a surface redesign, 
> but underlying issues are there. Yes, some corrections on usability and 
> some nice features like sidebar are there, but many things like fonts, 
> icons, animations, white space feels odd, as most importantly, not much is 
> improved in the usability of editing. Also, obviously I haven't seen 
> enough! Please share if something minimal exist already.
>
>
>  I have a vision for such a solution I would be happy to share if you want 
>> to consider taking it on. 
>
>
> I would love to hear your vision if you are willing to share! Both on the 
> strategy and design, let's collaborate. We can discuss here + draft a more 
> structured google docs + prioritize tasks on Trello + share the actual 
> design vision and comment on Figma prototype.
>

You give me a link or start a thread here or in my personal group 
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/tiddlywiki-by-psat I will 
start a forum thread where I edit my lead post see "Dynamic Layout concept 
development" (to be started)
 

>
>
> One way I would like to see the recent discussions evolve is a bit like 
>> 

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Edgaras,

This is getting more and more interesting, thank you for the initiative. 
Just a few hints for inspiration from my side: 

Some time ago I developed a concept focussing on reading and writing, you 
can find a demo here:
https://tid.li/tw5/test/concept.html 

The only half-finished, never popular result is the Reader Mode plugin 
published on https://tid.li/tw5/plugins.html derived from that demo. Other 
revolutionary thoughts I would be happy to see reconsidered: 

* Use titles in title fields as ID only and hide them (I used a simple 
counter to generate them)
** (I think it is not ideal, that they are present in the story, all on the 
same hierarchical level (H2) defined by a template.)
* Titles should be part of the text, it is easy to write them in wikitext: 
! H1
* If all content is in the text field, search can focus on this one field.

To *not use titles* adds a need for rethinking links and tags (I made a plugin 
x-tags  
for that part). But I think that should be solvable.

I just started to work with the block editor in wordpress and I have to say 
I like the writing experience. Hit the return key and get a new block, by 
default a paragraph, but that can be changed by hitting a shortcut or 
pressing a button to change the block type. TiddlyWiki in wikitext mode 
could be even faster: no need for block types as long as you type text. So: 
hit enter  (maybe shift+enter or another shortcut) and get a new tiddler.

You might also like to look at my Simple Search plugin: 
https://tid.li/tw5/plugins.html#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2Ftelmiger%2Fsimple-search 
– it shows how I think standard search should work.

And finally: I like to hide the sidebar too. I hide it on the right side to 
honour TW style and try to use space as good as possible in my themes 
 combining dynamic story river width and 
(rather) fixed sidebar width).

All the best,
Thomas

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/1535d86f-bca4-436e-a137-86804818f0ed%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

Hi Edgaras,

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 10:21:47 PM UTC+4:30, Edgaras wrote:
>
> *David Gifford* Thank you! I was actually thinking something very 
> similar! See the image attached. I tried it on the side stacking 
> vertically, but the problem was titles are too long.
> So I gave 2 letter initials for each note. I think I should try like you 
> suggest putting notes on top.
>
> By the way from your experience how many actual notes do you have open and 
> it's still useful at a given time?
>
>
>
> –
>
> *Mat, Mohammad* woups, made the video file public now!
>

Thank you I got the video and it was really useful to see how the prototype 
work! 

>
>
>
> –
>
> *Mohammad* clicking on the "Mentions" (backlinks) will give you a 
> dropdown searchable menu, similar to other dropdown menus like for tags 
> that TiddlyWiki already has.
> Yes, links and images are very important to markup. Links with [[ ]] 
> convention and images with markdown style to start with 
> (![Kitten](/media/2018/08/kitten.jpg 
> "A cute kitten") 
>

Wonderful! I may prefer wikitext instead of markdown :-)


> Editor bar is the next thing to work on, but we need to consider 
> minimalist. We could have just typing and markdown to start with (and give 
> a quick popup for cheatsheets). 
> Or we could make so the toolbar is very minimal, you open it by 
> selecting/highlighting a word/sentence.
>

This is good! The cheatsheets as on demand popup will be very useful!

>
>
> Yes, mobile design is the very next thing to address next too! Thanks!
>


> Could you give a bit more detail to the comment about "loose 
> arrangement"? Are you refering to the notes not having a box? This one I am 
> inspiring again from simple editors like Typora, Notion, Roam. It gives the 
> feeling of freedom and minimalism. It might be a bit hard to get the 
> feeling now only from image prototype. It could feel different when it's 
> real.
>

I mean the display density! When I see the video,  I realized the layout is 
great, so ignore this comment!

>
> I really like how in Notion you start with the blank slate (see the 
> screenshot attached)
>


Best wishes
Mohammad 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/b927baed-e608-4313-9322-4857c2971bb0%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

Edgaras - I like this a LOT but I'm a bit confused about some aspects. Here 
are questions and feedback:


- Removed the box/frame and left text only to *focus on writing experience*.
>

You're creating a new *theme*, right, not intended as the default theme. As 
a theme I LOVE this aspect. For default it is not a good idea because the 
user needs to understand the concept of tiddlers and the framing helps with 
this conceptualization.
 

> - You can *start writing* just by clicking on text or TAB on keyboard
>

But... which mode is it we see in the demo/recording? Edit or View mode? 
How do I switch between these modes? 
 

> - *Meta info* like "fields" and "content type" is hidden one click away 
> for simplicity.
>

+1
 

> - Simplier *tag management.*
>

It is very elegant but in what way is it simpler? Maybe it's just cut out 
for the simulation but there's no dropdown.
 

> - Added "*mentions*" for backlinks!
>

(This is not seen in the demo, right?)
 

> - Added a star icon for *pinning*/adding a tiddler to favorites.
>

You sure, considering the distraction free aspect? We currently have 
starring as separate plugin (hm, just realized I made one that I don't 
think I ever published: StarTid )
 

> - Added breadcrumb navigation on top
>

(Not seen in demo, right?)
 

> -* Simplified sidebar* with 4 tabs: opened tiddlers, pinned, recent and 
> all.
>

That Recent list is really clean! Much nicer layout than current even if it 
might take up more vertical space. I also fully agree with the removal of 
the Tools tab... they are *settings* that belong in the Ctrlpanel, where 
they already are. I'm not sure about putting tab All there instead of More. 
How do you access the other subtabs of More?
 

> - Clicking on a link, you *navigate to another note*, but you can still 
> access all opened notes in sidebar until you close them all.
>

Like normal/current TW, right?


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/dabfcd99-2a81-4d59-8589-3c744f99bfa3%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

David Gifford Thank you! I was actually thinking something very similar! 
See the image:



–

Mat, Mohammad woups, made the video file public now!


–

Mohammad clicking on the "Mentions" (backlinks) will give you a dropdown 
searchable menu, similar to other dropdown menus like for tags that 
TiddlyWiki already has.
Yes, links and images are very important to markup. Links with [[ ]] 
convention and images with markdown style to start with 
(![Kitten](/media/2018/08/kitten.jpg 
"A cute kitten") 

Editor bar is the next thing to work on, but we need to consider 
minimalist. We could have just typing and markdown to start with (and give 
a quick popup for cheatsheets). 
Or we could make so the toolbar is very minimal, you open it by 
selecting/highlighting a word/sentence.

Yes, mobile design is the very next thing to address next too! Thanks!

Could you give a bit more detail to the comment about "loose arrangement"? 
Are you refering to the notes not having a box? This one I am inspiring 
again from simple editors like Typora, Notion, Roam. It gives the feeling 
of freedom and minimalism. It might be a bit hard to get the feeling now 
only from image prototype. It could feel different when it's real.

I really like how in Notion you start with the blank slate (see the 
screenshot attached)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/d717c6a9-e9fc-44d7-a684-af7caabf7f1b%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

Hi Edgaras,
 Like Mat, I cannot access to recording on Google Drive!
 
  I see a very smooth Writing First App! Thank you!
  The backlinks my be a long list, has it a proper location under title?
  Is there any autocomplete for internal links or images?
  I see not editor toolbar, is it left to full editor?
  The search bar, breadcrumbs, add new tiddler looks good and in proper 
place!
   One point: For mobile users, does it reshape when opened on small touch 
screen?
 
A small comment: I may disagree with loose arrangement but it is a matter 
of taste and this is the second design (prototype)

--Mohammad

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 9:02:39 PM UTC+4:30, Edgaras wrote:
>
> I've been prototyping a little bit further last weekend. I took in 
> consideration many things we've discussed above. The prototype is far from 
> final, but I hope it gives the idea of the minimalist vision.
>
> Here is a short screen recording of the prototype:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AvwP_mMhFh2r9Ldr4kxaWKISGEdLTvBp/view
>
> And here is the prototype itself, if you wanna click around.
>
> *TW revamp v0.02 
> *
>
> *Some of the things addressed:*
> - Removed the box/frame and left text only to *focus on writing 
> experience*.
> - You can *start writing* just by clicking on text or TAB on keyboard
> - *Meta info* like "fields" and "content type" is hidden one click away 
> for simplicity.
> - Simplier *tag management.*
> - Added "*mentions*" for backlinks!
> - Added a star icon for *pinning*/adding a tiddler to favorites.
> - Added breadcrumb navigation on top
> -* Simplified sidebar* with 4 tabs: opened tiddlers, pinned, recent and 
> all.
> - All the other things would be moved to settings (I still don't show 
> that).
> - Clicking on a link, you *navigate to another note*, but you can still 
> access all opened notes in sidebar until you close them all.
>
>
> *Jeremy, *Mohammad, Tony, Anne-Laure and others looking forward to your 
> feedback!
>
>
> I hope to receive more feedback so I can keep iterating. You can leave a 
> contextual feedback in the prototype itself, but you will need to register 
> on Figma, it's free.
>
> Also, if you would be interested I can create an open collaboration file, 
> so we can all sketch together! Would be that helpful? Otherwise I can keep 
> iterating whenever I have time.
>
> Cheers!  
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0f03b300-d316-480b-bd16-819156b8f5b8%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

Edgaras, I'm following this with interest. The link you posted:

Here is a short screen recording of the prototype:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AvwP_mMhFh2r9Ldr4kxaWKISGEdLTvBp/view
>

...the file needs to be "shared with anyone who has the link". I can't 
access it as it is right now.
The additional notes and the demo confuses me a bit but I'll refrain until 
I've seen the recording.

<:-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/121b032f-6ffb-464b-a1a7-e264dd1d3d70%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[David Gifford]

Hi Edgaras

Here is a link to the TiddlyWiki classic I created with tabs as breadcrumbs 
https://giffmex.org/tw/tiddlydu3.html.

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 7:04:30 AM UTC-5, Edgaras wrote:
>
> I actually did this part a number of years ago.
>
>  
> *David* please share if you still have it anywhere!
>
> Maybe a sticky toolbar  
>> for the 
>> various parts of the edittemplate
>
>
> Probably user should have a choice to toggle the toolbar. The level of 
> editor complexity can be un revealed in these steps:
> Plain editing, coding → Select word/sentence/paragraph to call a small 
> toolkit pop-up → Toggle the toolbar → Reveal more advanced toolbar. So it 
> always starts minimal, unless you choose not to.
>
> –
>
> *Mohammad *yes, I am aware of that, but I am just scratching the surface 
> of understanding how modules work and what they are capable of doing. To 
> start with, it would be good to have a small priority list of crucial 
> modules, and then introduce more along the way. That way we can make sure 
> to control the consistency in interactions and styling.
>
> Great, feel free to add as many comments as you want! Be critical!  
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/073958a3-8e30-4e28-9d85-f6bb7e3f0271%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[David Gifford]

Yeah, I know, Anne, but I think of myself more as an En-veloper than a 
de-veloper - I take the working bits other people make and wrap it up into 
new editions.

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 7:06:50 AM UTC-5, Anne-Laure Le Cunff wrote:
>
> Edgaras - this is amazing! I wish I was a developer or better versed in 
> the inner workings of TW so I could help you, but I'll definitely give 
> feedback on the design as you go. This is an exciting project.
>
> I think ideally the end result should be easily installed in one click 
> (the same way you download an empty TW), so I guess in TW's terminology 
> that would make it an edition 
> ?
>
> @David Gifford: we discussed this, you're a TW developer! :)
>
> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 12:46:30 PM UTC+1, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Edgaras. I created an account to view your design brief.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 4:09:16 PM UTC+4:30, Edgaras wrote:
>>>
>>> *Mohammad*, thank you!
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, yes sign up is required, but it's free.
>>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/d8f8e9a3-1f4b-43de-9bbc-34278dfd21d2%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

I've been prototyping a little bit further last weekend. I took in 
consideration many things we've discussed above. The prototype is far from 
final, but I hope it gives the idea of the minimalist vision.

Here is a short screen recording of the prototype:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AvwP_mMhFh2r9Ldr4kxaWKISGEdLTvBp/view

And here is the prototype itself, if you wanna click around.

*TW revamp v0.02 
*

*Some of the things addressed:*
- Removed the box/frame and left text only to *focus on writing experience*.
- You can *start writing* just by clicking on text or TAB on keyboard
- *Meta info* like "fields" and "content type" is hidden one click away for 
simplicity.
- Simplier *tag management.*
- Added "*mentions*" for backlinks!
- Added a star icon for *pinning*/adding a tiddler to favorites.
- Added breadcrumb navigation on top
-* Simplified sidebar* with 4 tabs: opened tiddlers, pinned, recent and all.
- All the other things would be moved to settings (I still don't show that).
- Clicking on a link, you *navigate to another note*, but you can still 
access all opened notes in sidebar until you close them all.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/565e2ccc-6153-4ba8-914f-fdd5c8ac9c2a%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Spot on PMario! The power users and the development community already 
learned the tool, so for them usability/UX does not matter that much. 

But it's an awesome tool, truly deserving broader audiences! Let's make it 
a bit more user friendly and straight forward for those every day users. 
And whoever else wants to have that zen experience of just focusing on 
writing!

Really nice themes! I think they are pointing to the right direction, a lot 
of elements to inspire from!

––

Anne-Laure yes! As I also wrote above the design would really focus on 
writing first, the other parts would be more hidden. 
And the same sequence is valid for how the theme could be developed:

> Plain editing, markup → Select word/sentence/paragraph to call a small 
> toolkit pop-up → Toggle the toolbar → Reveal more advanced toolbar.

So for first version of the theme it's really just plain editing and markup 
similar to Roam.

––

Peter Buyze thanks! I agree the sidebar should be there first, but probably 
people who want less distractions should be able to close it. And I really 
like the "Opened tiddlers" feature.
For now I am thinking it can stay in the sidebar, but I have some other 
ideas also how to display opened tiddlers. I just think it's a bit 
confusing just to have them all below and scroll through them.
Unless there is some kind of logic in it, like hierarchy or chronology.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7f3fdc37-2edf-419f-b6c0-396cef083630%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 11:06:13 PM UTC+4:30, Anne-Laure Le Cunff 
wrote:
>
> @Mohammad: these look amazing! We need to have a proper gallery of themes 
> in the new tiddlywiki.com - it will really help to get people excited.
>
> And talky talky looks amazing, but already a bit more technical :)
>
That is true! I just wanted to show the theme and page layout already 
existed for creating Intro

Best
Mohammad

>
> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 5:41:22 PM UTC+1, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>> Anne-Laure
>>>
>>>
- It's the fist time I see the introduction walkthrough 
, this is going to 
become my go-to when telling people about TiddlyWiki

 Have you seen the https://tiddlywiki.com/talkytalky/  presentation by 
>>> Jeremy!
>>> I think this is a great edition of Tiddlywiki to be used for brief 
>>> introduction!
>>>
>>> --Mohammad
>>>
>>
>>
>> Don't forget to click the full screen button on the top right! 
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/12b76a7b-6674-4b81-adae-e1d119dc6e3a%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Anne-Laure Le Cunff]

@Mohammad: these look amazing! We need to have a proper gallery of themes 
in the new tiddlywiki.com - it will really help to get people excited.

And talky talky looks amazing, but already a bit more technical :)

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 5:41:22 PM UTC+1, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Anne-Laure
>>
>>
>>>- It's the fist time I see the introduction walkthrough 
>>>, this is going to 
>>>become my go-to when telling people about TiddlyWiki
>>>
>>> Have you seen the https://tiddlywiki.com/talkytalky/  presentation by 
>> Jeremy!
>> I think this is a great edition of Tiddlywiki to be used for brief 
>> introduction!
>>
>> --Mohammad
>>
>
>
> Don't forget to click the full screen button on the top right! 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/1232a8e8-1a8c-4a42-ade9-6b810f2aaa68%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

>
> Anne-Laure
>
>
>>- It's the fist time I see the introduction walkthrough 
>>, this is going to 
>>become my go-to when telling people about TiddlyWiki
>>
>> Have you seen the https://tiddlywiki.com/talkytalky/  presentation by 
> Jeremy!
> I think this is a great edition of Tiddlywiki to be used for brief 
> introduction!
>
> --Mohammad
>


Don't forget to click the full screen button on the top right! 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/41282462-f448-4b11-bbaa-21a1b13e1905%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

@Anne-Laure


>- It's the fist time I see the introduction walkthrough 
>, this is going to 
>become my go-to when telling people about TiddlyWiki
>
> Have you seen the https://tiddlywiki.com/talkytalky/  presentation by 
Jeremy!
I think this is a great edition of Tiddlywiki to be used for brief 
introduction!

--Mohammad

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0156d514-7b32-4f0f-bf95-285574dac036%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

To Mario post I would like o add the great themes by JD

- http://j.d.tiddlyspot.com/
- http://j.d.simplemobile.tiddlyspot.com/
- http://j.d.material.tiddlyspot.com/   (a lovely theme)
- http://j.d.search.tiddlyspot.com/  (two column like TiddlyBlink)

and Ton Gerener

-  http://tw5mobile.tiddlyspot.com/


and  some others ...

--Mohammad

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7c99649c-9627-45bc-9efd-42b2106d664a%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

['Peter Buyze' via TiddlyWiki]

The introduction walkthrough looks good, professional. It is important to keep 
that sidebar open and not make it closeable/foldable with the double chevron in 
the top right corner.

If it gets close accidentally a new user might not realise how to get it back. 
Moreover, it would useful to point out early on in the introduction that 
previous slides/tiddlers can be viewed again by clicking on them in the sidebar.


25 Apr 2020, 18:18 by alecu...@gmail.com:

> @Jeremy: this was such an interesting read, thank you!
>
> Just want to jot down some thoughts:
> It's the fist time I see the > introduction walkthrough 
> > , this is going to become my 
> go-to when telling people about TiddlyWiki!
> Tangential - I was about to share the link on Twitter, but checked here first 
> and it looks like there's no link preview. It would be good in a future 
> version to have default link preview parameters so links always look good on 
> social media. Even better if the user can tweak them easily.
> If there are so many limitations in working with the full version of 
> TiddlyWiki, I wonder if Edgaras couldn't design a version that's > 
> purposefully restrictive> . For instance, we're not able to edit on click 
> because we're not sure what complex transclusion may be computed in the 
> background—maybe that super simple Starter Edition of TiddlyWiki would not 
> support such complex transclusions and focus on pure note-taking? May not be 
> possible at all but just throwing it out there.
> Also, side note that I personally never use Storyview, and what Dave Gifford 
> is creating to look at two tiddlers side-by-side feels much more natural to 
> me, but again may be too much of a departure from the way TiddlyWiki works.
> @Edgaras: I don't think the WYSIWYG part is that important to be honest. The 
> kind of users that will be early adopters of this Starter Edition will 
> probably understand markdown fairly quickly, especially if the onboarding is 
> done correctly. (tens of thousands of non-technical people did with Roam)
>
> I think what would be interesting from a design standpoint is figure out 
> everything that should be removed for a Starter Edition, so people can get 
> the best first impression, and then build upon this as they grow along their 
> TiddlyWiki. Very excited to follow the progress on this!
>
> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 4:06:09 PM UTC+1, PMario wrote:
>
>> Hi Edgaras,
>>
>> Welcome to the club!
>>
>> It's nice to see a designer's point of view! I think your designs should be 
>> like brainstorming about UI and UX improvements. It's cool to explore new 
>> possibilities without thinking about the consequences ;)
>>
>> We developers and power-users should >> not>>  think about, how of if we can 
>> implement "those visions". We shouldn't think about "design" backwards 
>> compatibility. The internals need to be compatible. They are ultra flexible 
>> already ... We will survive it!
>>
>> I think it's about the "First Impression" for new users. Newbies want to 
>> type formatted text. ... Have a TOC ... Create simple ToDo's / shopping / 
>>  lists. ... They seem to like "backlinking" more visible ;) ...
>>
>> I think, if those elements can be made simple and they have the possibility 
>> to "store", "reload" and make their stuff visible for others, they are 
>> "caught" already. 
>>
>> If the second step like dynamic lists need an "extended editor" and 
>> transclusions, macros, widgets need an "advanced" editor this doesn't matter 
>> anymore. We got them already. 
>>
>> -
>>
>> Themes can look like: 
>>
>>  - Hugo static site theme >> Ghostwriter 
>> >>  or
>>  - Wordpress >> Moments  
>> >> or    more TW 
>> like 
>>
>>  - >> Whitespace >>   which IMO 
>> has a very nice sidebar concept. 
>>
>> IMO we can do everything. ... Installing those 3 themes in ONE wiki and make 
>> them switchable will be a challenge. ... But doable, if it needs to be ... 
>>
>> There is one more thing, I wanted to show, but it doesn't work atm ;) ... 
>> Link will follow.
>>
>> have fun!
>> mario
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to > tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com> .
>  To view this discussion on the web visit > 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/8500c4e2-d7bf-4dbb-8de1-89ebf95a117d%40googlegroups.com
>  
> >
>  .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from 

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Anne-Laure Le Cunff]

@Jeremy: this was such an interesting read, thank you!

Just want to jot down some thoughts:

   - It's the fist time I see the introduction walkthrough 
   , this is going to become 
   my go-to when telling people about TiddlyWiki!
   - Tangential - I was about to share the link on Twitter, but checked 
   here first and it looks like there's no link preview. It would be good in a 
   future version to have default link preview parameters so links always look 
   good on social media. Even better if the user can tweak them easily.
   - If there are so many limitations in working with the full version of 
   TiddlyWiki, I wonder if Edgaras couldn't design a version that's 
*purposefully 
   restrictive*. For instance, we're not able to edit on click because 
   we're not sure what complex transclusion may be computed in the 
   background—maybe that super simple Starter Edition of TiddlyWiki would not 
   support such complex transclusions and focus on pure note-taking? May not 
   be possible at all but just throwing it out there.
   - Also, side note that I personally never use Storyview, and what Dave 
   Gifford is creating to look at two tiddlers side-by-side feels much more 
   natural to me, but again may be too much of a departure from the way 
   TiddlyWiki works.

@Edgaras: I don't think the WYSIWYG part is that important to be honest. 
The kind of users that will be early adopters of this Starter Edition will 
probably understand markdown fairly quickly, especially if the onboarding 
is done correctly. (tens of thousands of non-technical people did with Roam)

I think what would be interesting from a design standpoint is figure out 
everything that should be removed for a Starter Edition, so people can get 
the best first impression, and then build upon this as they grow along 
their TiddlyWiki. Very excited to follow the progress on this!

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 4:06:09 PM UTC+1, PMario wrote:
>
> Hi Edgaras,
>
> Welcome to the club!
>
> It's nice to see a designer's point of view! I think your designs should 
> be like brainstorming about UI and UX improvements. It's cool to explore 
> new possibilities without thinking about the consequences ;)
>
> We developers and power-users should *not* think about, how of if we can 
> implement "those visions". We shouldn't think about "design" backwards 
> compatibility. The internals need to be compatible. They are ultra flexible 
> already ... We will survive it!
>
> I think it's about the "First Impression" for new users. Newbies want to 
> type formatted text. ... Have a TOC ... Create simple ToDo's / shopping / 
>  lists. ... They seem to like "backlinking" more visible ;) ...
>
> I think, if those elements can be made simple and they have the 
> possibility to "store", "reload" and make their stuff visible for others, 
> they are "caught" already. 
>
> If the second step like dynamic lists need an "extended editor" and 
> transclusions, macros, widgets need an "advanced" editor this doesn't 
> matter anymore. We got them already. 
>
> -
>
> Themes can look like: 
>
>  - Hugo static site theme Ghostwriter 
>  or
>  - Wordpress Moments 
> ormore TW 
> like 
>  - Whitespace   which IMO has 
> a very nice sidebar concept. 
>
> IMO we can do everything. ... Installing those 3 themes in ONE wiki and 
> make them switchable will be a challenge. ... But doable, if it needs to be 
> ... 
>
> There is one more thing, I wanted to show, but it doesn't work atm ;) ... 
> Link will follow.
>
> have fun!
> mario
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/8500c4e2-d7bf-4dbb-8de1-89ebf95a117d%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[PMario]

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 5:06:09 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:

IMO we can do everything. ... Installing those 3 themes in ONE wiki and 
> make them switchable will be a challenge. ... But doable, if it needs to be 
> ... 
>

edited last post.
-m

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/fae52aa7-c4ac-401e-94e9-7c341d694746%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[PMario]

Hi Edgaras,

Welcome to the club!

It's nice to see a designer's point of view! I think your designs should be 
like brainstorming about UI and UX improvements. It's cool to explore new 
possibilities without thinking about the consequences ;)

We developers and power-users should *not* think about, how of if we can 
implement "those visions". We shouldn't think about "design" backwards 
compatibility. The internals need to be compatible. They are ultra flexible 
already ... We will survive it!

I think it's about the "First Impression" for new users. Newbies want to 
type formatted text. ... Have a TOC ... Create simple ToDo's / shopping / 
 lists. ... They seem to like "backlinking" more visible ;) ...

I think, if those elements can be made simple and they have the possibility 
to "store", "reload" and make their stuff visible for others, they are 
"caught" already. 

If the second step like dynamic lists need an "extended editor" and 
transclusions, macros, widgets need an "advanced" editor this doesn't 
matter anymore. We got them already. 

-

Themes can look like: 

 - Hugo static site theme Ghostwriter 
 or
 - Wordpress Moments 
ormore TW 
like 
 - Whitespace   which IMO has a 
very nice sidebar concept. 

IMO we can do everything. ... Installing those 3 themes and make them 
switchable will be a challenge. ... But doable, if it needs to be ... 

There is one more thing, I wanted to show, but it doesn't work atm ;) ... 
Link will follow.

have fun!
mario

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/91ab1b58-1a34-490f-a5d2-418db423be21%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Anne-Laure Le Cunff]

Edgaras - this is amazing! I wish I was a developer or better versed in the 
inner workings of TW so I could help you, but I'll definitely give feedback 
on the design as you go. This is an exciting project.

I think ideally the end result should be easily installed in one click (the 
same way you download an empty TW), so I guess in TW's terminology that 
would make it an edition ?

@David Gifford: we discussed this, you're a TW developer! :)

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 12:46:30 PM UTC+1, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Thanks Edgaras. I created an account to view your design brief.
>
>
>
> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 4:09:16 PM UTC+4:30, Edgaras wrote:
>>
>> *Mohammad*, thank you!
>>
>> Unfortunately, yes sign up is required, but it's free.
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/b31402c9-c63b-410d-9b02-4cda3df80b24%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

>
> I actually did this part a number of years ago.

 
*David* please share if you still have it anywhere!

Maybe a sticky toolbar  
> for the 
> various parts of the edittemplate


Probably user should have a choice to toggle the toolbar. The level of 
editor complexity can be un revealed in these steps:
Plain editing, coding → Select word/sentence/paragraph to call a small 
toolkit pop-up → Toggle the toolbar → Reveal more advanced toolbar. So it 
always starts minimal, unless you choose not to.

–

*Mohammad *yes, I am aware of that, but I am just scratching the surface of 
understanding how modules work and what they are capable of doing. To start 
with, it would be good to have a small priority list of crucial modules, 
and then introduce more along the way. That way we can make sure to control 
the consistency in interactions and styling.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/04a1cd71-bbc3-45bc-a78f-1faf5ba4165c%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

Thanks Edgaras. I created an account to view your design brief.



On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 4:09:16 PM UTC+4:30, Edgaras wrote:
>
> *Mohammad*, thank you!
>
> Unfortunately, yes sign up is required, but it's free.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/8594de3f-bebe-46bd-b75d-f0ce31347d21%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 3:01:23 PM UTC+4:30, Edgaras wrote:
>
> Moving forward I see *two main issues *that prevents simplicity:
>
>
>1. The navigation when clicking links. Do you find it useful that 
>tiddles are opening as a vertical stack? I find it kind of confusing, and 
>not really helpful when you have increasingly large stack. I would like to 
>explore alternative interactions:
>- Swapping the tiddle with a new one, but keeping the breadcrumbs on 
>   top (if possible?) and giving < and > navigation, back and forward in 
> time 
>   where you've been.
>   - Stacking tiddle when opening into tabs, so you can switch then by 
>   clicking or keyboard shortcut.
>2. Editing mode. How can we make the editing more fluent with viewing. 
>It distances you from just writing if you have to click edit and save 
>everytime. You should be able to navigate text with keyboard or just click 
>anywhere in text right away and start editing. Saving should happen 
>automatically (to local storage). All the text-type formatting could be 
>hidden, unless it's relevant for the selected word or sentence. This will 
>reduce visual clutter. Check the simplicity of text editing in *Typora* 
>! → *Quick demo* 
>
> Edgaras,

Some thoughts:

Regarding the Typoral, I am sure you know Tiddlywiki Tiddler 
(https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/#Philosophy%20of%20Tiddlers) not only 
can be used to keep a piece of information (simple text +links or Markdown 
or wikitext), but a Tiddler also can act as small module keeping Tiddlywiki 
scripts (wikitext code, macros, call to widgets, complex transclusion, ...).
Many tiddlers may have both (simple wikitext, script wikitext) as an 
example see: https://kookma.github.io/TW-Shiraz/#Shiraz%20Plugin
So these are should be considered in your design!
--Mohammad
 


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/bcb9ccf9-678e-4406-8041-132232b8ecf3%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[David Gifford]

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 5:31:23 AM UTC-5, Edgaras wrote:
>
> Moving forward I see *two main issues *that prevents simplicity:
>
>
>1. The navigation when clicking links. Do you find it useful that 
>tiddles are opening as a vertical stack? I find it kind of confusing, and 
>not really helpful when you have increasingly large stack. I would like to 
>explore alternative interactions:
>- Swapping the tiddle with a new one, but keeping the breadcrumbs on 
>   top (if possible?) 
>
> *I actually did this part a number of years ago. Or maybe it was for TW 
classic. Yes, yes, it was for classic. But I am not a coder or programmer, 
just a guy.*
 

>
>- and giving < and > navigation, back and forward in time where you've 
>   been.
>   - Stacking tiddle when opening into tabs, so you can switch then by 
>   clicking or keyboard shortcut. 
>
>
>1. Editing mode. How can we make the editing more fluent with viewing. 
>It distances you from just writing if you have to click edit and save 
>everytime. You should be able to navigate text with keyboard or just click 
>anywhere in text right away and start editing. Saving should happen 
>automatically (to local storage). All the text-type formatting could be 
>hidden, unless it's relevant for the selected word or sentence. This will 
>reduce visual clutter. Check the simplicity of text editing in *Typora* 
>! → *Quick demo* 
>
> *Maybe a sticky toolbar 
> for the 
> various parts of the edittemplate. Click to open fields, click to open 
> types, click to open preview, click to have editor toolbar buttons visible, 
> etc*
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/50ec89b0-77b7-4e64-9657-efbfead74623%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

*Mohammad*, thank you!

Unfortunately, yes sign up is required, but it's free.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/eb8a24d9-1fbb-4f09-a364-b7601121465d%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[David Gifford]

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 12:59:32 PM UTC-5, Edgaras wrote:
>
> Hello everyone!
>
> I've just recently discovered TiddlyWiki (crazy it's been around for 15 
> years already!) and I am very pumped up about it! It's not only a great 
> note taking tool, but it's also a powerful CMS + Static Site Builder!
>
> I think that TW deserves and has a potential of reaching broader 
> audiences! 
>
> However, one of the biggest drawbacks for me is the *design of TW*. And 
> not only the visual design, but also the whole experience of using it. The 
> functionality and features seem very powerful (and I am just scratching the 
> surface), but the first time experience of using the tool is not very 
> pleasant. I really think we could greatly improve the visuals and usability 
> of TW, to match the other modern tools, and people expectations.
>
> This would address many of the root causes of these problems: Rethinking 
> tiddlywiki.com 
> 
>
> I am experienced UI designer and I am willing to volunteer on creating a 
> new minimal and simple, yet still powerful TW theme!
>
> I am looking for a developer who knows TW well and who wants to 
> collaborate on creating this new theme. I code myself a bit, but it would 
> be way more effective to collaborate with a bit more experienced coder.
>
> If there will be more interest, I will share all the design files on 
> Figma, so anybody can give feedback and we can improve the designs together!
>
> Anyhow, I would like to know if anybody can also see the value in what I 
> am talking about?  
>
> Cheers!
> - Edgaras
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/b13204f1-1be8-45b5-8c90-d167837ea407%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 2:40:18 PM UTC+4:30, Edgaras wrote:
>
> Thank you for the warm welcome everyone and your responses!  
>
> 
>
> First of all, thanks to *Anne-Laure*, for republishing the TiddlyWiki on 
> ProductHunt, where it caught my attention and then invited me to this 
> community! 
>
> 
>
> This is one of the best collection of Tiddlywiki resources on the net.
>
>
> *Mohmmad*, thank you for sharing this resource, it will definitely come 
> in handy considering the key features and further into development.
>
> 
>
> *Tony,* thank you for the inputs, your interest and open mind!
>
> You are already mentioning bunch of great points:
>
>>
>>- TiddlyWiki can already do or be many things
>>
>>
>>- This presents a dilemma, because how do you set a basic standard 
>>   look for a chameleon? 
>>
>> This is why I am so excited about, it's super powerful, but somehow it 
> seems a bit overwhelming, with all the features shouting for the 
> importance. The tool could be as blank as it can be, while displaying first 
> possible actions, and then introducing complexity as you engage within a 
> context. 
>
>
>>- TiddlyWiki  is the answer to so many questions, but which question 
>>are you trying to answer?
>>
>>
>>- There are already innovative tiddlywiki layouts like a trello look 
>>alike, the Murri plugin and much more
>>
>> As I see it, TW should be as it is – super powerful personal notebook, 
> with a possibility to quickly and simply publish static website, as if 
> possible (don't know much about it) a collaborative writing tool. Some of 
> the things that I see are missing:
>
>1. Simple and intuitive interface that feels nice and simple to sit in 
>front of every morning (e.g. Bear app, Notion, Typora)
>2. Making sure that the notes are as modular and interconnected as 
>possible with backlinks etc. (yet still simple). (RoamResearch achieves 
>that quite well, but it can be better)
>3. Yet, NONE of those powerful ones are free and personal tools for 
>the new digital knowledge age. I believe everyone has a right to their own 
>personal digital knowledge management, publishing and collaboration.
>
> I've seen some of TW themes, but it feels more like as a surface redesign, 
> but underlying issues are there. Yes, some corrections on usability and 
> some nice features like sidebar are there, but many things like fonts, 
> icons, animations, white space feels odd, as most importantly, not much is 
> improved in the usability of editing. Also, obviously I haven't seen 
> enough! Please share if something minimal exist already.
>
>
>  I have a vision for such a solution I would be happy to share if you want 
>> to consider taking it on. 
>
>
> I would love to hear your vision if you are willing to share! Both on the 
> strategy and design, let's collaborate. We can discuss here + draft a more 
> structured google docs + prioritize tasks on Trello + share the actual 
> design vision and comment on Figma prototype.
>
>
> One way I would like to see the recent discussions evolve is a bit like 
>> how developers may use wordpress as the back end and write their own front 
>> end.
>
>
> Could you explain a bit more what do you mean here?
>
>
> When it comes to static site generation, there are great mechanisms in 
>> tiddlywiki to do this already as no doubt people see, but to make it really 
>> powerful we need to improve and support the workflow and templates used to 
>> do this. 
>
>
> I really want to dig deeper into the current state of art of TW's static 
> site generation. It must be as simple as in any other SSG, but even 
> simplier! I like what Publii  is doing. You just 
> write you site visually and then publish to GitHub Pages or SFTP as a 
> static site with one click (+ first time simple settup).
>
>
> Tiddlywiki as a platform, Software Development Kit, Personal Productivity 
>> tool, site generator, database interface design ... is almost infinite.
>>  
>
>
>> I would like to see a responsive theme that contains elements that come 
>> into use only if given content and obeys a set of rules that allows almost 
>> any design structure, with default that result in what we currently see, 
>> but a small set of changes transforms it.
>
>
> That's how I see it too! Simple, responsive, contextual, prioritised. 
> There should no unnecessary switching "modes", viewing and editing should 
> feel as one coherent flow. And all the power of the tool can come into the 
> right place, but it should to be prioritised.
>
> 
>
> *Mat *good idea! Is it possible somehow to tag Jeremy here so he can see 
> this post? Otherwise I will try to find him:)
>
> 
>
> We don't have to overthink it to start with! Yesterday I quickly mocked up 

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

Edgaras,

 I agree with Jed! Most of new features cab be quickly tried as 
plugins/add-on/themes. 
 Mat is right, Jeremy can be of great help in what you like to know in such 
details.

By the way, I love your systematic approach and design brief you gave! I am 
sure other super user/developer will comment and help

Go ahead and please share your progress here with community! You will 
receive supports.

Best wishes
Mohammad

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 1:23:00 PM UTC+4:30, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I think that perhaps a design brief or something similar would be more 
> effective for gathering collaborators.
>
> The architecture of tiddlywiki as a piece of software makes everything a 
> plugin and everything is changeable, and it is open source, so it really 
> doesn't matter if something is accepted by Jeremy or any of the devs, you 
> can make it anyway. Also I don't think that Jeremy has ever turned down 
> contributions for new themes and the like as long as they are functional. 
> At a minimum if it comes out well it can be linked to as a good first theme 
> to use.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/3c96d5ce-b4f3-4f44-82ae-fecbb16f138d%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras Benediktavicus]

Birthe C good point to keep in mind, I definitely don't want to fork this 
project to a separate one! Community is the power.

That's why I am looking for somebody open-minded and who knows the TW code 
well, to think if we can achieve this through plugins and themes. 

So TW stays TW, or adopts some of the changes to the the main trunk, if 
majority agrees they are valid.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/76e84070-cedc-4b98-926c-486be956b061%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Birthe C]

Am I misunderstanding? A theme is discussed but to me it seems you want to 
change the workings of tiddlywiki.
If so remember there is such thing as backwards compatibility.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/a787be6c-a7bf-4859-8d11-7af6c03305e8%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras Benediktavicus]

Moving forward I see *two main issues *that prevents simplicity:


   1. The navigation when clicking links. Do you find it useful that 
   tiddles are opening as a vertical stack? I find it kind of confusing, and 
   not really helpful when you have increasingly large stack. I would like to 
   explore alternative interactions:
   - Swapping the tiddle with a new one, but keeping the breadcrumbs on top 
  (if possible?) and giving < and > navigation, back and forward in time 
  where you've been.
  - Stacking tiddle when opening into tabs, so you can switch then by 
  clicking or keyboard shortcut.
   2. Editing mode. How can we make the editing more fluent with viewing. 
   It distances you from just writing if you have to click edit and save 
   everytime. You should be able to navigate text with keyboard or just click 
   anywhere in text right away and start editing. Saving should happen 
   automatically (to local storage). All the text-type formatting could be 
   hidden, unless it's relevant for the selected word or sentence. This will 
   reduce visual clutter. Check the simplicity of text editing in *Typora* 
   !




-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/ac09ae16-5e1c-47e2-8d08-3dd505174a83%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras Benediktavicus]

Mat, it's not so important now if it makes to the official page, of course 
that would be great, but not the first priority. 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7199673f-8e23-4473-bc21-f87536b56522%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras Benediktavicus]

Thank you for the warm welcome everyone and your responses!  



First of all, thanks to *Anne-Laure*, for republishing the TiddlyWiki on 
ProductHunt, where it caught my attention and then invited me to this 
community! 



This is one of the best collection of Tiddlywiki resources on the net.


*Mohmmad*, thank you for sharing this resource, it will definitely come in 
handy considering the key features and further into development.



*Tony,* thank you for the inputs, your interest and open mind!

You are already mentioning bunch of great points:

>
>- TiddlyWiki can already do or be many things
>
>
>- This presents a dilemma, because how do you set a basic standard 
>   look for a chameleon? 
>
> This is why I am so excited about, it's super powerful, but somehow it 
seems a bit overwhelming, with all the features shouting for the 
importance. The tool could be as blank as it can be, while displaying first 
possible actions, and then introducing complexity as you engage within a 
context. 


>- TiddlyWiki  is the answer to so many questions, but which question 
>are you trying to answer?
>
>
>- There are already innovative tiddlywiki layouts like a trello look 
>alike, the Murri plugin and much more
>
> As I see it, TW should be as it is – super powerful personal notebook, 
with a possibility to quickly and simply publish static website, as if 
possible (don't know much about it) a collaborative writing tool. Some of 
the things that I see are missing:

   1. Simple and intuitive interface that feels nice and simple to sit in 
   front of every morning (e.g. Bear app, Notion, Typora)
   2. Making sure that the notes are as modular and interconnected as 
   possible with backlinks etc. (yet still simple). (RoamResearch achieves 
   that quite well, but it can be better)
   3. Yet, NONE of those powerful ones are free and personal tools for the 
   new digital knowledge age. I believe everyone has a right to their own 
   personal digital knowledge management, publishing and collaboration.

I've seen some of TW themes, but it feels more like as a surface redesign, 
but underlying issues are there. Yes, some corrections on usability and 
some nice features like sidebar are there, but many things like fonts, 
icons, animations, white space feels odd, as most importantly, not much is 
improved in the usability of editing. Also, obviously I haven't seen 
enough! Please share if something minimal exist already.


 I have a vision for such a solution I would be happy to share if you want 
> to consider taking it on. 


I would love to hear your vision if you are willing to share! Both on the 
strategy and design, let's collaborate. We can discuss here + draft a more 
structured google docs + prioritize tasks on Trello + share the actual 
design vision and comment on Figma prototype.


One way I would like to see the recent discussions evolve is a bit like how 
> developers may use wordpress as the back end and write their own front end.


Could you explain a bit more what do you mean here?


When it comes to static site generation, there are great mechanisms in 
> tiddlywiki to do this already as no doubt people see, but to make it really 
> powerful we need to improve and support the workflow and templates used to 
> do this. 


I really want to dig deeper into the current state of art of TW's static 
site generation. It must be as simple as in any other SSG, but even 
simplier! I like what Publii  is doing. You just 
write you site visually and then publish to GitHub Pages or SFTP as a 
static site with one click (+ first time simple settup).


Tiddlywiki as a platform, Software Development Kit, Personal Productivity 
> tool, site generator, database interface design ... is almost infinite.
>  


> I would like to see a responsive theme that contains elements that come 
> into use only if given content and obeys a set of rules that allows almost 
> any design structure, with default that result in what we currently see, 
> but a small set of changes transforms it.


That's how I see it too! Simple, responsive, contextual, prioritised. There 
should no unnecessary switching "modes", viewing and editing should feel as 
one coherent flow. And all the power of the tool can come into the right 
place, but it should to be prioritised.



*Mat *good idea! Is it possible somehow to tag Jeremy here so he can see 
this post? Otherwise I will try to find him:)



We don't have to overthink it to start with! Yesterday I quickly mocked up 
the front page of how the revamped TW could look/work/feel like. It's not 
finished AT ALL, just making some ideas tangible:

*TW revamp v0.01 

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Jed Carty]

If it is something worth making what does it matter if it ends up as the 
design of tw.com or not? Anything done reasonably well would have use past 
just tw.com and in the best case asking permission means you wait around 
for an answer before doing anything instead of just getting it done.

Sorry this is off topic, but I always find it baffling that people would 
ask permission and I have seen it a lot in the past few days.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/8004aa6e-11e5-4a39-9801-b6bf0feb38f8%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

Jed Carty wrote:
>
> it really doesn't matter if something is accepted by Jeremy or any of the 
> devs, you can make it anyway. 
>

But we're talking about tiddlywiki.com not TW, and the very front page at 
that, so for sure Big J has to approve it :-)
 
<:-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/400183a2-e829-4264-bb3e-7247dd542587%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Jed Carty]

I think that perhaps a design brief or something similar would be more 
effective for gathering collaborators.

The architecture of tiddlywiki as a piece of software makes everything a 
plugin and everything is changeable, and it is open source, so it really 
doesn't matter if something is accepted by Jeremy or any of the devs, you 
can make it anyway. Also I don't think that Jeremy has ever turned down 
contributions for new themes and the like as long as they are functional. 
At a minimum if it comes out well it can be linked to as a good first theme 
to use.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/9d8cfc3b-0693-43ae-8141-707eea402ba7%40googlegroups.com.