Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Looking at the 58503 auctions on eBay, I think that a number of them are simply Z3801’s out of cell tower scrap operations that have had the 58503 front panel bits and pieces added to them. Some of the cases have a fairly odd look to them. Bob On Nov 17, 2014, at 7:48 PM, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote: Bob wrote: The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put around it - right? If so, it might / should have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. I think there may be other minor differences between the 58503 and the Z3801, including a newer GPS engine, but I'm not positive what they all are. They are clearly very similar. The 58503 should have either a dual-oven 10811 or the Symmetricom look-alike. (The Symmetricom has a 5MHz crystal and a doubler -- it looks exactly like a DO 10811 except for lacking an HP sticker.) I bought a 58503 from one of the usual far-eastern suspects, which was advertised expressly as having a 10811. When it arrived, I saw that it had the Symmetricom OCXO. I fired off a message to the supplier complaining that I did not receive the promised 10811, and he offered to part-refund the purchase price or exchange the oscillator. Because of the high transaction cost of exchanging, I elected to take the part refund thinking I would swap in one of the DO 10811s I had on hand. But after only a week of running, the Symmetricom was better than all of the 10811s I own! (Interestingly, my best 10811 is not a DO unit -- it is a SO 10811 that came out of an HP5345A that was originally part of a 5390A frequency stability analyzer.) Note: My experience should NOT be read as a claim that the Symmetricom oscillators are better than 10811s. My sample of the Symmetricoms is way too limited to make any claims. But this particular Symmetricom happens to be a very fine OCXO. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
One of my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs similarly at times to the 58503A mentioned by Said. From an adev perspective it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so iirc.) At times though the output seems to jump in frequency. My other Z3805 from the same source doesn't work as well. None of the 10811's in my various pieces of test gear (some of which I basically purchased to get the 10811's) worked all that well from an Adev perspective. I used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction site with 10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices.At least I still have a nice collection of frequency counters. Sent from my iPad On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Correct on all counts Bob. My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV and PN measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I have Wenzel ULNs for even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable ADEV). I also have a costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP unit. Those 10811s just rule. In fact my only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related small spurs you can see in the plots... Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put around it - right? If so, it might / should have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at 100 Hz. That is much better than the noise floor that the MTI’s seem to produce at 100 Hz. About the only other GPSDO OCXO that gets to that level is the one in the original TBolts . There you very much have to deal with spurs. That make the noise floor of limited use in a practical system. Bob On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM, saidj...@aol.com wrote: Hi Bob, yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt. The 15MHz plot is quite good till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty rotten too. Here is one of my 58503A units (using the 10811 OCXO) as a comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this plot was actually done to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually has less noise and spurs than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference for this purpose). The good news is that getting the close-in phase noise to be good is very hard to do and the unit delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering out the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should be fairly straight forward to cobble up a small PN filter for those units to get rid of the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset. bye, Said In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46 Pacific Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Here’s the phase noise on the 15 MHz. There are a few spurs, and an very real hump out at the likely frequency of the Lucent switcher. The 15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of the other units I’ve seen on the surplus market. I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband multiplier. I would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational bandwidth. You will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO past 100 Hz. No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range. Math: 15 MHz to 150 MHz - 20 log (N) - 20 db. -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset - -120 dbc/Hz You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset out of a number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to work fine for him. Bob DROR-IIA_Phase_Noise.png ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Bob, yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt. The 15MHz plot is quite good till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty rotten too. Here is one of my 58503A units (using the 10811 OCXO) as a comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this plot was actually done to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually has less noise and spurs than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference for this purpose). The good news is that getting the close-in phase noise to be good is very hard to do and the unit delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering out the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should be fairly straight forward to cobble up a small PN filter for those units to get rid of the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset. bye, Said In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46 Pacific Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Here’s the phase noise on the 15 MHz. There are a few spurs, and an very real hump out at the likely frequency of the Lucent switcher. The 15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of the other units I’ve seen on the surplus market. I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband multiplier. I would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational bandwidth. You will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO past 100 Hz. No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range. Math: 15 MHz to 150 MHz - 20 log (N) - 20 db. -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset - -120 dbc/Hz You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset out of a number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to work fine for him. Bob DROR-IIA_Phase_Noise.png Description: Binary data ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put around it - right? If so, it might / should have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at 100 Hz. That is much better than the noise floor that the MTI’s seem to produce at 100 Hz. About the only other GPSDO OCXO that gets to that level is the one in the original TBolts . There you very much have to deal with spurs. That make the noise floor of limited use in a practical system. Bob On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM, saidj...@aol.com wrote: Hi Bob, yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt. The 15MHz plot is quite good till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty rotten too. Here is one of my 58503A units (using the 10811 OCXO) as a comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this plot was actually done to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually has less noise and spurs than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference for this purpose). The good news is that getting the close-in phase noise to be good is very hard to do and the unit delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering out the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should be fairly straight forward to cobble up a small PN filter for those units to get rid of the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset. bye, Said In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46 Pacific Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Here’s the phase noise on the 15 MHz. There are a few spurs, and an very real hump out at the likely frequency of the Lucent switcher. The 15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of the other units I’ve seen on the surplus market. I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband multiplier. I would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational bandwidth. You will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO past 100 Hz. No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range. Math: 15 MHz to 150 MHz - 20 log (N) - 20 db. -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset - -120 dbc/Hz You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset out of a number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to work fine for him. Bob DROR-IIA_Phase_Noise.png ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
That first spike falls right at 60 Hz. I wonder if your test setup is picking up some hum? Tom - Original Message - From: S. Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com To: kb...@n1k.org; time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... Hi Bob, yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt. The 15MHz plot is quite good till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty rotten too. Here is one of my 58503A units (using the 10811 OCXO) as a comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this plot was actually done to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually has less noise and spurs than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference for this purpose). The good news is that getting the close-in phase noise to be good is very hard to do and the unit delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering out the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should be fairly straight forward to cobble up a small PN filter for those units to get rid of the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset. bye, Said In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46 Pacific Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Here’s the phase noise on the 15 MHz. There are a few spurs, and an very real hump out at the likely frequency of the Lucent switcher. The 15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of the other units I’ve seen on the surplus market. I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband multiplier. I would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational bandwidth. You will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO past 100 Hz. No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range. Math: 15 MHz to 150 MHz - 20 log (N) - 20 db. -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset - -120 dbc/Hz You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset out of a number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to work fine for him. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi I would pretty much ignore any 60 / 120 / 180 Hz spurs in a US phase noise plot. The same thing would be true of 50 / 100 / 150 Hz spurs from a country that uses 50 Hz power. Unless everything is running in the middle of a corn field on batteries, there is no way to be *sure* that they are not part of the measurement setup. If you happen to be on a circuit with heavy rotary machinery, you can see artifacts at 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 the power line frequency. I doubt that in that case the bearings on the equipment are going to last very long. They rarely are strong enough to bother a phase noise plot, but I have had it happen. Bob On Nov 17, 2014, at 3:01 PM, Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net wrote: That first spike falls right at 60 Hz. I wonder if your test setup is picking up some hum? Tom - Original Message - From: S. Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com To: kb...@n1k.org; time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... Hi Bob, yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt. The 15MHz plot is quite good till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty rotten too. Here is one of my 58503A units (using the 10811 OCXO) as a comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this plot was actually done to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually has less noise and spurs than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference for this purpose). The good news is that getting the close-in phase noise to be good is very hard to do and the unit delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering out the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should be fairly straight forward to cobble up a small PN filter for those units to get rid of the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset. bye, Said In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46 Pacific Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Here’s the phase noise on the 15 MHz. There are a few spurs, and an very real hump out at the likely frequency of the Lucent switcher. The 15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of the other units I’ve seen on the surplus market. I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband multiplier. I would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational bandwidth. You will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO past 100 Hz. No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range. Math: 15 MHz to 150 MHz - 20 log (N) - 20 db. -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset - -120 dbc/Hz You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset out of a number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to work fine for him. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Correct on all counts Bob. My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV and PN measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I have Wenzel ULNs for even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable ADEV). I also have a costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP unit. Those 10811s just rule. In fact my only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related small spurs you can see in the plots... Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put around it - right? If so, it might / should have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at 100 Hz. That is much better than the noise floor that the MTI’s seem to produce at 100 Hz. About the only other GPSDO OCXO that gets to that level is the one in the original TBolts . There you very much have to deal with spurs. That make the noise floor of limited use in a practical system. Bob On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM, saidj...@aol.com wrote: Hi Bob, yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt. The 15MHz plot is quite good till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty rotten too. Here is one of my 58503A units (using the 10811 OCXO) as a comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this plot was actually done to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually has less noise and spurs than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference for this purpose). The good news is that getting the close-in phase noise to be good is very hard to do and the unit delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering out the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should be fairly straight forward to cobble up a small PN filter for those units to get rid of the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset. bye, Said In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46 Pacific Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Here’s the phase noise on the 15 MHz. There are a few spurs, and an very real hump out at the likely frequency of the Lucent switcher. The 15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of the other units I’ve seen on the surplus market. I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband multiplier. I would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational bandwidth. You will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO past 100 Hz. No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range. Math: 15 MHz to 150 MHz - 20 log (N) - 20 db. -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset - -120 dbc/Hz You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset out of a number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to work fine for him. Bob DROR-IIA_Phase_Noise.png ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi On Nov 17, 2014, at 7:48 PM, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote: Bob wrote: The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put around it - right? If so, it might / should have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. I think there may be other minor differences between the 58503 and the Z3801, including a newer GPS engine, but I'm not positive what they all are. They are clearly very similar. The 58503 should have either a dual-oven 10811 or the Symmetricom look-alike. (The Symmetricom has a 5MHz crystal and a doubler -- it looks exactly like a DO 10811 except for lacking an HP sticker.) I bought a 58503 from one of the usual far-eastern suspects, which was advertised expressly as having a 10811. When it arrived, I saw that it had the Symmetricom OCXO. I fired off a message to the supplier complaining that I did not receive the promised 10811, and he offered to part-refund the purchase price or exchange the oscillator. Because of the high transaction cost of exchanging, I elected to take the part refund thinking I would swap in one of the DO 10811s I had on hand. But after only a week of running, the Symmetricom was better than all of the 10811s I own! It’s the -155 to -160 dbc / Hz phase noise limit that can be tough to hit with a 5 MHz doubled to 10 MHz. Getting below -166 dbc / Hz at 100 Hz offset on a 5 MHz is quite unusual. (Interestingly, my best 10811 is not a DO unit -- it is a SO 10811 that came out of an HP5345A that was originally part of a 5390A frequency stability analyzer.) Note: My experience should NOT be read as a claim that the Symmetricom oscillators are better than 10811s. My sample of the Symmetricoms is way too limited to make any claims. But this particular Symmetricom happens to be a very fine OCXO. If it’s a 5 MHz it *should* have ADEV that is as good as / better than just about all the 10811’s out there. Bob Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Bob wrote: The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put around it - right? If so, it might / should have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO. I think there may be other minor differences between the 58503 and the Z3801, including a newer GPS engine, but I'm not positive what they all are. They are clearly very similar. The 58503 should have either a dual-oven 10811 or the Symmetricom look-alike. (The Symmetricom has a 5MHz crystal and a doubler -- it looks exactly like a DO 10811 except for lacking an HP sticker.) I bought a 58503 from one of the usual far-eastern suspects, which was advertised expressly as having a 10811. When it arrived, I saw that it had the Symmetricom OCXO. I fired off a message to the supplier complaining that I did not receive the promised 10811, and he offered to part-refund the purchase price or exchange the oscillator. Because of the high transaction cost of exchanging, I elected to take the part refund thinking I would swap in one of the DO 10811s I had on hand. But after only a week of running, the Symmetricom was better than all of the 10811s I own! (Interestingly, my best 10811 is not a DO unit -- it is a SO 10811 that came out of an HP5345A that was originally part of a 5390A frequency stability analyzer.) Note: My experience should NOT be read as a claim that the Symmetricom oscillators are better than 10811s. My sample of the Symmetricoms is way too limited to make any claims. But this particular Symmetricom happens to be a very fine OCXO. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
For what it's worth, here's what happened when I linked two Ref-1 units together One was fitted with it's GPS module as normal, I'll call this Ref-1. The other was as normal other than having it's GPS module removed, I'll call this Ref-1-0. The link cable was around 15 inches long and wired 1-15, 2-14, etc, using standard 15 way high density plugs. BTW, whereas shortened pins have been used in the past to ensure safe power up sequences I'm pretty sure that on the Z3809A cable it's perhaps a precaution to reduce the risk of bringing down the base station when hot swapping. I've noticed that removing my faker plug once a stand alone Ref-1 is up and running starts to flash the Standby light but doesn't otherwise inhibit operation, the 15MHz and 1PPS outputs remain available. I don't know how long this might continue but the system obviously responds differently once fully booted to when it's first powered and I suspect the use of shortened pins could be related. Anyway, back to the two linked At power up both go through the flashing light sequence, then... Ref-1-0 -- No GPS - Flashing, Fault - Solid Ref-1 --No GPS - Solid, Fault - Solid After the boot period finishes. Ref-1-0 -- No GPS - Flashing, Fault - Solid Ref-1 --Standby - Solid, all other lights off. Both units will talk via the J8 diagnostics port as soon as powered up but Ref-1-0 behaves just as one would expect if the GPS module is removed, and it doesn't seem to be relaying any data from the Ref-1 unit, whilst Ref-1 shows what looks to be a normal acquisition sequence, the onset of conditioning, and a self survey At no time is there a 15MHz or 1PPS output available from either unit. Although it's been conjectured that the firmware is identical in the Z3811A and Z3812A, and the Prom markings certainly seem to confirm this, it would also seem that there must be something that tells the unit what it is, either by a firmware difference somewhere after all or perhaps a link on the board somewhere. This isn't just based on my not very successful experiment, although the results are no great surprise:-), but my Ref-1 units always report themselves to monitoring software as a Z3811A Secondary Receiver. Based on this am I correct in thinking that a standard Ref-0 would report as a Z3812A Primary Receiver? If so it has to get this information from somewhere. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 04/11/2014 09:38:25 GMT Standard Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: A wiring diagram of the Z3809A cable interconnect cable was published earlier on this list. That information appears to be incorrect. The cable is actually wired pin 1 to pin 15, pin 2 to pin 14, etc. Another way to describe it is that for each wire in the cable, the pin numbers on each end of the cable add up to 16. A mated pair of these units is running in my lab with a scratch-built interconnect cable following the above rules. This scratch-built cable allowed access to the interconnect signals while the system was operating happily. No lights were lit except the green ON light on the Ref-0 unit (Z3812A, no GPS) and the yellow STBY light on the Ref-1 unit (Z3911A with GPS receiver). The following signals were observed on the interconnect (pin numbers given for the J5 interconnect socket on the Ref-1 unit): Pin 1: 9600 baud serial data (described below) Pin 2: logic low (0.11V) Pin 3: Ground (0.00V) Presence detect? (see below) Pin 4: logic high (4.79V) Pin 5: inverted Motorola PPS, high (5V) for 800ms, low for 200ms Pin 6: 17 / 23 dBm signal from Ref-0 unit (see below) Pin 7: logic high (4.48V) Pin 8: Ground (0.00V) Pin 9: logic low (0.11V) Pin 10: 17 / 23 dBm signal from Ref-1 unit (see below) Pin 11: inverted PPS, low 400us, high (5V) otherwise Pin 12: logic low (0.12V) Pin 13: Ground (0.00V) Pin 14: logic low (0.08V) Pin 15: logic high (4.78V) Pins 3, 8, and 13 appear to be firmly connected to Ground. (Note that these are the three pins which are clipped short on the HP interconnect cable.) On an unpowered, disconnected box (either Ref-0 or Ref-1), pins 8 and 13 are connected to Ground (low resistance) and pin 3 is high impedance. Presumably pin 3 on each box (connected to the grounded pin 13 on the other box) is used to sense the presence of the other box and/or the interconnect cable. The timing of the PPS signal on pin 11 matches precisely the timing of the PPS signal available on pins 1 and 6 of J6 (RS422/PPS) on the active Ref-0 unit. Presumably this signal is coming across the cable from the Ref-0 unit. Note: when the system is coming up from a cold start, SatStat on the unit with the GPS receiver (Ref-1) will show [Ext 1PPS valid] in the space where it shows [GPS 1PPS valid] after the survey is complete. It appears that the Ref-1 unit timing system is locking its oscillator to the PPS coming from the Ref-0 unit
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
PS, re two Ref-1 units linked I forgot to mention that unlike Stewart's comment re a normal pair below, my Ref-1 continues to show GPS 1PPS Valid It would seem there's some of the handshaking working ok but not much actual activity being shared, will have a further poke about later. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 04/11/2014 09:38:25 GMT Standard Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: A wiring diagram of the Z3809A cable interconnect cable was published earlier on this list. That information appears to be incorrect. The cable is actually wired pin 1 to pin 15, pin 2 to pin 14, etc. Another way to describe it is that for each wire in the cable, the pin numbers on each end of the cable add up to 16. A mated pair of these units is running in my lab with a scratch-built interconnect cable following the above rules. This scratch-built cable allowed access to the interconnect signals while the system was operating happily. No lights were lit except the green ON light on the Ref-0 unit (Z3812A, no GPS) and the yellow STBY light on the Ref-1 unit (Z3911A with GPS receiver). The following signals were observed on the interconnect (pin numbers given for the J5 interconnect socket on the Ref-1 unit): Pin 1: 9600 baud serial data (described below) Pin 2: logic low (0.11V) Pin 3: Ground (0.00V) Presence detect? (see below) Pin 4: logic high (4.79V) Pin 5: inverted Motorola PPS, high (5V) for 800ms, low for 200ms Pin 6: 17 / 23 dBm signal from Ref-0 unit (see below) Pin 7: logic high (4.48V) Pin 8: Ground (0.00V) Pin 9: logic low (0.11V) Pin 10: 17 / 23 dBm signal from Ref-1 unit (see below) Pin 11: inverted PPS, low 400us, high (5V) otherwise Pin 12: logic low (0.12V) Pin 13: Ground (0.00V) Pin 14: logic low (0.08V) Pin 15: logic high (4.78V) Pins 3, 8, and 13 appear to be firmly connected to Ground. (Note that these are the three pins which are clipped short on the HP interconnect cable.) On an unpowered, disconnected box (either Ref-0 or Ref-1), pins 8 and 13 are connected to Ground (low resistance) and pin 3 is high impedance. Presumably pin 3 on each box (connected to the grounded pin 13 on the other box) is used to sense the presence of the other box and/or the interconnect cable. The timing of the PPS signal on pin 11 matches precisely the timing of the PPS signal available on pins 1 and 6 of J6 (RS422/PPS) on the active Ref-0 unit. Presumably this signal is coming across the cable from the Ref-0 unit. Note: when the system is coming up from a cold start, SatStat on the unit with the GPS receiver (Ref-1) will show [Ext 1PPS valid] in the space where it shows [GPS 1PPS valid] after the survey is complete. It appears that the Ref-1 unit timing system is locking its oscillator to the PPS coming from the Ref-0 unit during this time. The timing of the PPS signal on pin 5 matches the timing of the PPS output described in the Motorola OnCore manual. Presumably this signal is sourced by the Ref-1 unit to allow the Ref-0 unit to lock to GPS. The edges of this PPS signal look very dirty compared to the signal on pin 11. This may be an artifact of the homemade cable used for this experiment. The HP cable clearly has an overall shield (visible through the cable sheath) and may have internal coax or twisted pair for these PPS signals. When pin 5 and pin 11 are observed together, the usual GPS sawtooth pattern is evident. Someone discovered earlier that the both units will blink their green ON lights if the front-panel switch on either unit is set to 23 dBm vice the normal 17. Obviously each unit can communicate its switch status to the other unit. They use pins 6 and 10 to do that. Pin 10 (on the Ref-1 unit) is high (~5V) if the switch on the Ref-1 unit is in the 17 dBm position, and low in the 23 dBm position. Pin 6 (on the Ref-1 unit) gives the same indications for the switch on the Ref-0 unit. The serial data on pin 1 is transmitted at 9600 baud, with a burst of data every second. The signal idles at logic low (near 0V) and rises to logic high (near 5V) during the burst. This may be the standard for TTL (not RS-232) transmission of serial data, or it may be inverted. The first few characters of one burst were hand-decoded from a scope trace as 0x40, 0x40, 0x45, 0x61, 0x0B, or ASCII @@Ea. This appears to be the Motorola Oncore binary data format, although Ea does not appear to be a valid Motorola command or response. Perhaps the hand-decoding was in error. One can use SatStat, talking to the Ref-0 (non-GPS) box, to issue queries and commands to the GPS receiver. The results are inconsistent, but it seems that at least some of the queries get through and trigger responses. If the Ref-0 box is actually talking to the GPS receiver, it must be doing so through the interconnect cable. The specific wire in the cable used for this (if any) has not yet been identified. An earlier
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi On a “real” Ref-0 / Ref-1 combo, the Lucent status message (RS-422 / PPS port) shows which device the string is coming from. This is independent of their status bits. Previous digging into similar units shows the same thing on earlier Lucent GPSDO’s. All the details are buried (200 posts back according to some ..) in one of my previous posts.I do not have anything on the diag port, so I don’t know what it says. Looking at the few unknown pins / pairs on the 15 pin connector, I’m guessing that one of them might be high or low depending on it being a Ref-0 or Ref-1. I’m also guessing that the pair on pin 15 is serial both ways. At this point my guessing average is not to good on these parts. I’m not really expecting that it will improve. Figuring out what the last few pairs do would be a nice thing. Bob On Nov 5, 2014, at 7:20 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: For what it's worth, here's what happened when I linked two Ref-1 units together One was fitted with it's GPS module as normal, I'll call this Ref-1. The other was as normal other than having it's GPS module removed, I'll call this Ref-1-0. The link cable was around 15 inches long and wired 1-15, 2-14, etc, using standard 15 way high density plugs. BTW, whereas shortened pins have been used in the past to ensure safe power up sequences I'm pretty sure that on the Z3809A cable it's perhaps a precaution to reduce the risk of bringing down the base station when hot swapping. I've noticed that removing my faker plug once a stand alone Ref-1 is up and running starts to flash the Standby light but doesn't otherwise inhibit operation, the 15MHz and 1PPS outputs remain available. I don't know how long this might continue but the system obviously responds differently once fully booted to when it's first powered and I suspect the use of shortened pins could be related. Anyway, back to the two linked At power up both go through the flashing light sequence, then... Ref-1-0 -- No GPS - Flashing, Fault - Solid Ref-1 --No GPS - Solid, Fault - Solid After the boot period finishes. Ref-1-0 -- No GPS - Flashing, Fault - Solid Ref-1 --Standby - Solid, all other lights off. Both units will talk via the J8 diagnostics port as soon as powered up but Ref-1-0 behaves just as one would expect if the GPS module is removed, and it doesn't seem to be relaying any data from the Ref-1 unit, whilst Ref-1 shows what looks to be a normal acquisition sequence, the onset of conditioning, and a self survey At no time is there a 15MHz or 1PPS output available from either unit. Although it's been conjectured that the firmware is identical in the Z3811A and Z3812A, and the Prom markings certainly seem to confirm this, it would also seem that there must be something that tells the unit what it is, either by a firmware difference somewhere after all or perhaps a link on the board somewhere. This isn't just based on my not very successful experiment, although the results are no great surprise:-), but my Ref-1 units always report themselves to monitoring software as a Z3811A Secondary Receiver. Based on this am I correct in thinking that a standard Ref-0 would report as a Z3812A Primary Receiver? If so it has to get this information from somewhere. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 04/11/2014 09:38:25 GMT Standard Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: A wiring diagram of the Z3809A cable interconnect cable was published earlier on this list. That information appears to be incorrect. The cable is actually wired pin 1 to pin 15, pin 2 to pin 14, etc. Another way to describe it is that for each wire in the cable, the pin numbers on each end of the cable add up to 16. A mated pair of these units is running in my lab with a scratch-built interconnect cable following the above rules. This scratch-built cable allowed access to the interconnect signals while the system was operating happily. No lights were lit except the green ON light on the Ref-0 unit (Z3812A, no GPS) and the yellow STBY light on the Ref-1 unit (Z3911A with GPS receiver). The following signals were observed on the interconnect (pin numbers given for the J5 interconnect socket on the Ref-1 unit): Pin 1: 9600 baud serial data (described below) Pin 2: logic low (0.11V) Pin 3: Ground (0.00V) Presence detect? (see below) Pin 4: logic high (4.79V) Pin 5: inverted Motorola PPS, high (5V) for 800ms, low for 200ms Pin 6: 17 / 23 dBm signal from Ref-0 unit (see below) Pin 7: logic high (4.48V) Pin 8: Ground (0.00V) Pin 9: logic low (0.11V) Pin 10: 17 / 23 dBm signal from Ref-1 unit (see below) Pin 11: inverted PPS, low 400us, high (5V) otherwise Pin 12: logic low (0.12V) Pin 13: Ground (0.00V) Pin 14: logic low (0.08V) Pin 15: logic high (4.78V) Pins 3,
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Bob, Thanks for the information, I've still just been working from the J8 Diagnostic port and it's about time I took a look at the RS422 output. The proper Ref-1 seems to be working as I'd expect, it's accepting a valid Ref-0 is present and going into standby as a result. Pulling out the link cable results in the Standby flashing and inserting the faker plug at this stage switches it straight to ON, standby light now off, and enables the outputs. Unfortunately, persuading the other other Ref-1 that it's really a Ref-0 would seem to involve a little bit more than the minor surgery I've performed so far:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 05/11/2014 12:41:42 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi On a “real” Ref-0 / Ref-1 combo, the Lucent status message (RS-422 / PPS port) shows which device the string is coming from. This is independent of their status bits. Previous digging into similar units shows the same thing on earlier Lucent GPSDO’s. All the details are buried (200 posts back according to some ..) in one of my previous posts.I do not have anything on the diag port, so I don’t know what it says. Looking at the few unknown pins / pairs on the 15 pin connector, I’m guessing that one of them might be high or low depending on it being a Ref-0 or Ref-1. I’m also guessing that the pair on pin 15 is serial both ways. At this point my guessing average is not to good on these parts. I’m not really expecting that it will improve. Figuring out what the last few pairs do would be a nice thing. Bob On Nov 5, 2014, at 7:20 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: For what it's worth, here's what happened when I linked two Ref-1 units together One was fitted with it's GPS module as normal, I'll call this Ref-1. The other was as normal other than having it's GPS module removed, I'll call this Ref-1-0. The link cable was around 15 inches long and wired 1-15, 2-14, etc, using standard 15 way high density plugs. BTW, whereas shortened pins have been used in the past to ensure safe power up sequences I'm pretty sure that on the Z3809A cable it's perhaps a precaution to reduce the risk of bringing down the base station when hot swapping. I've noticed that removing my faker plug once a stand alone Ref-1 is up and running starts to flash the Standby light but doesn't otherwise inhibit operation, the 15MHz and 1PPS outputs remain available. I don't know how long this might continue but the system obviously responds differently once fully booted to when it's first powered and I suspect the use of shortened pins could be related. Anyway, back to the two linked At power up both go through the flashing light sequence, then... Ref-1-0 -- No GPS - Flashing, Fault - Solid Ref-1 --No GPS - Solid, Fault - Solid After the boot period finishes. Ref-1-0 -- No GPS - Flashing, Fault - Solid Ref-1 --Standby - Solid, all other lights off. Both units will talk via the J8 diagnostics port as soon as powered up but Ref-1-0 behaves just as one would expect if the GPS module is removed, and it doesn't seem to be relaying any data from the Ref-1 unit, whilst Ref-1 shows what looks to be a normal acquisition sequence, the onset of conditioning, and a self survey At no time is there a 15MHz or 1PPS output available from either unit. Although it's been conjectured that the firmware is identical in the Z3811A and Z3812A, and the Prom markings certainly seem to confirm this, it would also seem that there must be something that tells the unit what it is, either by a firmware difference somewhere after all or perhaps a link on the board somewhere. This isn't just based on my not very successful experiment, although the results are no great surprise:-), but my Ref-1 units always report themselves to monitoring software as a Z3811A Secondary Receiver. Based on this am I correct in thinking that a standard Ref-0 would report as a Z3812A Primary Receiver? If so it has to get this information from somewhere. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 04/11/2014 09:38:25 GMT Standard Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: A wiring diagram of the Z3809A cable interconnect cable was published earlier on this list. That information appears to be incorrect. The cable is actually wired pin 1 to pin 15, pin 2 to pin 14, etc. Another way to describe it is that for each wire in the cable, the pin numbers on each end of the cable add up to 16. A mated pair of these units is running in my lab with a scratch-built interconnect cable following the above rules. This scratch-built cable allowed access to the interconnect signals while the system was operating happily. No lights were lit except the green ON light on the Ref-0 unit (Z3812A, no GPS) and the
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Arthur, Yes, it's there on mine. It's hard to think it would be able to control the OCXO without it. Bob From: Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@gmail.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2014 5:29 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Could someone who has both the REF 0 and REF 1 units check to see if the REF 0 unit has U1 missing. U1 is an AD7849 serial input, 14-Bit/16-Bit DAC on my REF 1 units but is missing on an old REF 0 I just dug out of the to-do pile. Someone may have already mentioned this and I missed it. -Arthur http://www.analog.com/en/digital-to-analog-converters/da-converters/ad7849/products/product.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi The ADC and the active filter next to it are present on my Ref 0 and Ref 1. I suspect that the active filter is there to allow them to dither the DAC without creating monster spurs. Bob On Nov 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@gmail.com wrote: Could someone who has both the REF 0 and REF 1 units check to see if the REF 0 unit has U1 missing. U1 is an AD7849 serial input, 14-Bit/16-Bit DAC on my REF 1 units but is missing on an old REF 0 I just dug out of the to-do pile. Someone may have already mentioned this and I missed it. -Arthur http://www.analog.com/en/digital-to-analog-converters/da-converters/ad7849/products/product.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi There is what could be a programming header on my units. It’s next to the U34 firmware chip. Oddly it does not seem to have a designator on it. There is a similar 10 pin header over by the other firmware chip. That one is not stuffed on my board Ref-0. It’s labeled J101. I *know* what J101 is for - it connects to the GPS. If the unlabeled connector is a programming port, it might be there to shoot variable config bits into the board. Yes, it’s more likely to be something like a JTAG port for auto test. It’s rare to see a connector like that populated though. Mostly people save the 5 cents and use pogo pins …. Makes you wonder what they used it for. It’s also right by our favorite interface connector…. Three of the pins on the same side as the 1 indication are grounded on the connector. That might suggest that it’s there to plug jumpers onto. They may have had a way to enable this or that to burn in the parts prior to ship. Bob On Nov 5, 2014, at 8:01 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob, Thanks for the information, I've still just been working from the J8 Diagnostic port and it's about time I took a look at the RS422 output. The proper Ref-1 seems to be working as I'd expect, it's accepting a valid Ref-0 is present and going into standby as a result. Pulling out the link cable results in the Standby flashing and inserting the faker plug at this stage switches it straight to ON, standby light now off, and enables the outputs. Unfortunately, persuading the other other Ref-1 that it's really a Ref-0 would seem to involve a little bit more than the minor surgery I've performed so far:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 05/11/2014 12:41:42 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi On a “real” Ref-0 / Ref-1 combo, the Lucent status message (RS-422 / PPS port) shows which device the string is coming from. This is independent of their status bits. Previous digging into similar units shows the same thing on earlier Lucent GPSDO’s. All the details are buried (200 posts back according to some ..) in one of my previous posts.I do not have anything on the diag port, so I don’t know what it says. Looking at the few unknown pins / pairs on the 15 pin connector, I’m guessing that one of them might be high or low depending on it being a Ref-0 or Ref-1. I’m also guessing that the pair on pin 15 is serial both ways. At this point my guessing average is not to good on these parts. I’m not really expecting that it will improve. Figuring out what the last few pairs do would be a nice thing. Bob On Nov 5, 2014, at 7:20 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: For what it's worth, here's what happened when I linked two Ref-1 units together One was fitted with it's GPS module as normal, I'll call this Ref-1. The other was as normal other than having it's GPS module removed, I'll call this Ref-1-0. The link cable was around 15 inches long and wired 1-15, 2-14, etc, using standard 15 way high density plugs. BTW, whereas shortened pins have been used in the past to ensure safe power up sequences I'm pretty sure that on the Z3809A cable it's perhaps a precaution to reduce the risk of bringing down the base station when hot swapping. I've noticed that removing my faker plug once a stand alone Ref-1 is up and running starts to flash the Standby light but doesn't otherwise inhibit operation, the 15MHz and 1PPS outputs remain available. I don't know how long this might continue but the system obviously responds differently once fully booted to when it's first powered and I suspect the use of shortened pins could be related. Anyway, back to the two linked At power up both go through the flashing light sequence, then... Ref-1-0 -- No GPS - Flashing, Fault - Solid Ref-1 --No GPS - Solid, Fault - Solid After the boot period finishes. Ref-1-0 -- No GPS - Flashing, Fault - Solid Ref-1 --Standby - Solid, all other lights off. Both units will talk via the J8 diagnostics port as soon as powered up but Ref-1-0 behaves just as one would expect if the GPS module is removed, and it doesn't seem to be relaying any data from the Ref-1 unit, whilst Ref-1 shows what looks to be a normal acquisition sequence, the onset of conditioning, and a self survey At no time is there a 15MHz or 1PPS output available from either unit. Although it's been conjectured that the firmware is identical in the Z3811A and Z3812A, and the Prom markings certainly seem to confirm this, it would also seem that there must be something that tells the unit what it is, either by a firmware difference somewhere after all or perhaps a link on the board somewhere. This isn't just based on my not very successful experiment, although the results
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi A little more snooping and U18 pops out. It’s an Atmel AT28C64B. Since it is a 64K bit EEPROM, that’s a much more likely place to stuff config items than redoing a flash chip. 64K seems pretty big for simple config variables and it’s a parallel EEPROM rather than a serial part. They may actually have code in there. When I originally looked at the board I assumed it was there to load the FPGA. If that’s what it’s for, the location is a bit odd. U2 seems like a more likely location for the load memory for the FPGA.I would also think that the FPGA memory would come pre-loaded. Bob On Nov 5, 2014, at 8:01 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob, Thanks for the information, I've still just been working from the J8 Diagnostic port and it's about time I took a look at the RS422 output. The proper Ref-1 seems to be working as I'd expect, it's accepting a valid Ref-0 is present and going into standby as a result. Pulling out the link cable results in the Standby flashing and inserting the faker plug at this stage switches it straight to ON, standby light now off, and enables the outputs. Unfortunately, persuading the other other Ref-1 that it's really a Ref-0 would seem to involve a little bit more than the minor surgery I've performed so far:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 05/11/2014 12:41:42 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi On a “real” Ref-0 / Ref-1 combo, the Lucent status message (RS-422 / PPS port) shows which device the string is coming from. This is independent of their status bits. Previous digging into similar units shows the same thing on earlier Lucent GPSDO’s. All the details are buried (200 posts back according to some ..) in one of my previous posts.I do not have anything on the diag port, so I don’t know what it says. Looking at the few unknown pins / pairs on the 15 pin connector, I’m guessing that one of them might be high or low depending on it being a Ref-0 or Ref-1. I’m also guessing that the pair on pin 15 is serial both ways. At this point my guessing average is not to good on these parts. I’m not really expecting that it will improve. Figuring out what the last few pairs do would be a nice thing. Bob On Nov 5, 2014, at 7:20 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: For what it's worth, here's what happened when I linked two Ref-1 units together One was fitted with it's GPS module as normal, I'll call this Ref-1. The other was as normal other than having it's GPS module removed, I'll call this Ref-1-0. The link cable was around 15 inches long and wired 1-15, 2-14, etc, using standard 15 way high density plugs. BTW, whereas shortened pins have been used in the past to ensure safe power up sequences I'm pretty sure that on the Z3809A cable it's perhaps a precaution to reduce the risk of bringing down the base station when hot swapping. I've noticed that removing my faker plug once a stand alone Ref-1 is up and running starts to flash the Standby light but doesn't otherwise inhibit operation, the 15MHz and 1PPS outputs remain available. I don't know how long this might continue but the system obviously responds differently once fully booted to when it's first powered and I suspect the use of shortened pins could be related. Anyway, back to the two linked At power up both go through the flashing light sequence, then... Ref-1-0 -- No GPS - Flashing, Fault - Solid Ref-1 --No GPS - Solid, Fault - Solid After the boot period finishes. Ref-1-0 -- No GPS - Flashing, Fault - Solid Ref-1 --Standby - Solid, all other lights off. Both units will talk via the J8 diagnostics port as soon as powered up but Ref-1-0 behaves just as one would expect if the GPS module is removed, and it doesn't seem to be relaying any data from the Ref-1 unit, whilst Ref-1 shows what looks to be a normal acquisition sequence, the onset of conditioning, and a self survey At no time is there a 15MHz or 1PPS output available from either unit. Although it's been conjectured that the firmware is identical in the Z3811A and Z3812A, and the Prom markings certainly seem to confirm this, it would also seem that there must be something that tells the unit what it is, either by a firmware difference somewhere after all or perhaps a link on the board somewhere. This isn't just based on my not very successful experiment, although the results are no great surprise:-), but my Ref-1 units always report themselves to monitoring software as a Z3811A Secondary Receiver. Based on this am I correct in thinking that a standard Ref-0 would report as a Z3812A Primary Receiver? If so it has to get this information from somewhere. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 04/11/2014
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Does your board have a chip at U4? The “normal” boards have U1 but no U4. There may have been two different DAC’s for these boards. Bob On Nov 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@gmail.com wrote: Could someone who has both the REF 0 and REF 1 units check to see if the REF 0 unit has U1 missing. U1 is an AD7849 serial input, 14-Bit/16-Bit DAC on my REF 1 units but is missing on an old REF 0 I just dug out of the to-do pile. Someone may have already mentioned this and I missed it. -Arthur http://www.analog.com/en/digital-to-analog-converters/da-converters/ad7849/products/product.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Also missing on both the Ref-1 and Ref-0 in the same vicinity (only on the back): U20 (might be U2?0) R212 U205 Also of note: U207 (alarm opto isolator) is present on Ref-0 and missing on Ref-1. Bob On Nov 5, 2014, at 6:29 PM, Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@gmail.com wrote: Could someone who has both the REF 0 and REF 1 units check to see if the REF 0 unit has U1 missing. U1 is an AD7849 serial input, 14-Bit/16-Bit DAC on my REF 1 units but is missing on an old REF 0 I just dug out of the to-do pile. Someone may have already mentioned this and I missed it. -Arthur http://www.analog.com/en/digital-to-analog-converters/da-converters/ad7849/products/product.html ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Verrry nice Stu, thank you, having both units obviously does have its advantages after all:-) Pin 3 certainly controls the standby indication on the Z3811A and it's comforting to know it is indeed a solid ground during normal operation. However, given the low logic level seen on pin 2 I'm back to thinking it might be preferable to fit a pull down resistor to pin 2 when enabling stand alone mode rather than a direct short. A couple of quick measurements shows 0.223V across a 470ohm pull down and 0.446V across 1Kohm, the supposed indicated precision no doubt a fluke:-) but at least indicating a consistent current to ground of approx 0.5mA. So without knowing what's driving pin 2 I'm going back to a 470ohm pull down just to be on the safe side. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 04/11/2014 09:38:25 GMT Standard Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: A wiring diagram of the Z3809A cable interconnect cable was published earlier on this list. That information appears to be incorrect. The cable is actually wired pin 1 to pin 15, pin 2 to pin 14, etc. Another way to describe it is that for each wire in the cable, the pin numbers on each end of the cable add up to 16. A mated pair of these units is running in my lab with a scratch-built interconnect cable following the above rules. This scratch-built cable allowed access to the interconnect signals while the system was operating happily. No lights were lit except the green ON light on the Ref-0 unit (Z3812A, no GPS) and the yellow STBY light on the Ref-1 unit (Z3911A with GPS receiver). The following signals were observed on the interconnect (pin numbers given for the J5 interconnect socket on the Ref-1 unit): Pin 1: 9600 baud serial data (described below) Pin 2: logic low (0.11V) Pin 3: Ground (0.00V) Presence detect? (see below) Pin 4: logic high (4.79V) Pin 5: inverted Motorola PPS, high (5V) for 800ms, low for 200ms Pin 6: 17 / 23 dBm signal from Ref-0 unit (see below) Pin 7: logic high (4.48V) Pin 8: Ground (0.00V) Pin 9: logic low (0.11V) Pin 10: 17 / 23 dBm signal from Ref-1 unit (see below) Pin 11: inverted PPS, low 400us, high (5V) otherwise Pin 12: logic low (0.12V) Pin 13: Ground (0.00V) Pin 14: logic low (0.08V) Pin 15: logic high (4.78V) Pins 3, 8, and 13 appear to be firmly connected to Ground. (Note that these are the three pins which are clipped short on the HP interconnect cable.) On an unpowered, disconnected box (either Ref-0 or Ref-1), pins 8 and 13 are connected to Ground (low resistance) and pin 3 is high impedance. Presumably pin 3 on each box (connected to the grounded pin 13 on the other box) is used to sense the presence of the other box and/or the interconnect cable. The timing of the PPS signal on pin 11 matches precisely the timing of the PPS signal available on pins 1 and 6 of J6 (RS422/PPS) on the active Ref-0 unit. Presumably this signal is coming across the cable from the Ref-0 unit. Note: when the system is coming up from a cold start, SatStat on the unit with the GPS receiver (Ref-1) will show [Ext 1PPS valid] in the space where it shows [GPS 1PPS valid] after the survey is complete. It appears that the Ref-1 unit timing system is locking its oscillator to the PPS coming from the Ref-0 unit during this time. The timing of the PPS signal on pin 5 matches the timing of the PPS output described in the Motorola OnCore manual. Presumably this signal is sourced by the Ref-1 unit to allow the Ref-0 unit to lock to GPS. The edges of this PPS signal look very dirty compared to the signal on pin 11. This may be an artifact of the homemade cable used for this experiment. The HP cable clearly has an overall shield (visible through the cable sheath) and may have internal coax or twisted pair for these PPS signals. When pin 5 and pin 11 are observed together, the usual GPS sawtooth pattern is evident. Someone discovered earlier that the both units will blink their green ON lights if the front-panel switch on either unit is set to 23 dBm vice the normal 17. Obviously each unit can communicate its switch status to the other unit. They use pins 6 and 10 to do that. Pin 10 (on the Ref-1 unit) is high (~5V) if the switch on the Ref-1 unit is in the 17 dBm position, and low in the 23 dBm position. Pin 6 (on the Ref-1 unit) gives the same indications for the switch on the Ref-0 unit. The serial data on pin 1 is transmitted at 9600 baud, with a burst of data every second. The signal idles at logic low (near 0V) and rises to logic high (near 5V) during the burst. This may be the standard for TTL (not RS-232) transmission of serial data, or it may be inverted. The first few characters of one burst were hand-decoded from a scope trace as 0x40, 0x40, 0x45, 0x61, 0x0B, or ASCII @@Ea. This appears to be the Motorola Oncore binary data format, although Ea does not appear to be a valid Motorola command or
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Z3811A ON LED flashing.problem solved! If only it was always this easy:-) It turns out this is what happens if you switch the Output Level from 17 to 23, obviously an advisory indication to draw attention to the higher output. Switching it back reduces the level, as expected, and returns the LED function to normal. Phew:-) I can't remember switching it but don't suppose it arrived like that so guess I must have done. Regards Nigel GM8PZR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
It turns out this is what happens if you switch the Output Level from 17 to 23, obviously an advisory indication to draw attention to the higher output. Switching it back reduces the level, as expected, and returns the LED function to normal. Phew:-) I can't remember switching it but don't suppose it arrived like that so guess I must have done. My pair came with Ref-0 set at 17 and Ref-1 at 23. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Arthur Thanks for your further comments, and certainly no need for the sorry. It was your pioneering work that inspired recent efforts to start with, and the confusion over the pin numbers that led Gotz to the, just grounding pins 2 and 3, 2 link solution we have now. Overall, I'd say, not a bad result:-) Good luck with the 10 MHz conversion, I'll probably do that soon as well, after bringing out the 5 Mhz, but for now I'm just letting them cook whilst monitoring the 15MHz. As has been previously commented, aside from the GPS module, there seems to be very little difference between the Ref-0 and Ref-1 modules, and I'm quite tempted to make up my own patch lead, whip out the GPS module from one of my Ref-1 units, and then couple the two Ref-1s together to see how they cope with that:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:13:15 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi On Nov 3, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@gmail.com wrote: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. The 15 MHz “chain” in the units is *much* cleaner than what ever they did to get 10 MHz. It looks like the 15 MHz has some sort of push pull amp driving a fairly involved filter. Best guess is they have a 3X stage and a fairly involved filter to take out the 5, 10 and 20 MHz signals. Turning the 3X into a 2X (assuming you can find it) should be fairly easy. The doubler should be cleaner than the 3X, so less filtering would be needed. Working out their filter circuit might be easier than it looks. Right now it looks pretty complex to me. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. Sorry I could not find any of these when you first posted about them…. Bob -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
The photos I posted at http://goo.gl/87e8GG show the differences between the two boards - there is more to it than just adding a GPS board. The underside has a bunch of additional components beneath the antenna connector. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:00 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Hi Arthur Thanks for your further comments, and certainly no need for the sorry. It was your pioneering work that inspired recent efforts to start with, and the confusion over the pin numbers that led Gotz to the, just grounding pins 2 and 3, 2 link solution we have now. Overall, I'd say, not a bad result:-) Good luck with the 10 MHz conversion, I'll probably do that soon as well, after bringing out the 5 Mhz, but for now I'm just letting them cook whilst monitoring the 15MHz. As has been previously commented, aside from the GPS module, there seems to be very little difference between the Ref-0 and Ref-1 modules, and I'm quite tempted to make up my own patch lead, whip out the GPS module from one of my Ref-1 units, and then couple the two Ref-1s together to see how they cope with that:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:13:15 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Some of the parts on the underside are to provide power to the antenna. It does not use the GPS rx to do that. I guess they also detect any antenna fault. - Original Message - From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... The photos I posted at http://goo.gl/87e8GG show the differences between the two boards - there is more to it than just adding a GPS board. The underside has a bunch of additional components beneath the antenna connector. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:00 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Hi Arthur Thanks for your further comments, and certainly no need for the sorry. It was your pioneering work that inspired recent efforts to start with, and the confusion over the pin numbers that led Gotz to the, just grounding pins 2 and 3, 2 link solution we have now. Overall, I'd say, not a bad result:-) Good luck with the 10 MHz conversion, I'll probably do that soon as well, after bringing out the 5 Mhz, but for now I'm just letting them cook whilst monitoring the 15MHz. As has been previously commented, aside from the GPS module, there seems to be very little difference between the Ref-0 and Ref-1 modules, and I'm quite tempted to make up my own patch lead, whip out the GPS module from one of my Ref-1 units, and then couple the two Ref-1s together to see how they cope with that:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:13:15 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Feeding antenna bias through the “stuff” on the module does not let you handle shorts and strange stuff as well as an outboard solution. I guess they wanted it built tough. The crazy deal with re-stuffing a slave is that there probably are 7 0402 sized resistors on the board that control some aspect of the changeover. I’m sure that finding six of them will be easy. Finding the 7th never seems to work out for me. I’ve seen a lot of troubleshooting and inspection done on boards far less complex. Without some sort of automated system … it’s a lot of time. Bob On Nov 3, 2014, at 9:49 PM, Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net wrote: Some of the parts on the underside are to provide power to the antenna. It does not use the GPS rx to do that. I guess they also detect any antenna fault. - Original Message - From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... The photos I posted at http://goo.gl/87e8GG show the differences between the two boards - there is more to it than just adding a GPS board. The underside has a bunch of additional components beneath the antenna connector. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:00 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Hi Arthur Thanks for your further comments, and certainly no need for the sorry. It was your pioneering work that inspired recent efforts to start with, and the confusion over the pin numbers that led Gotz to the, just grounding pins 2 and 3, 2 link solution we have now. Overall, I'd say, not a bad result:-) Good luck with the 10 MHz conversion, I'll probably do that soon as well, after bringing out the 5 Mhz, but for now I'm just letting them cook whilst monitoring the 15MHz. As has been previously commented, aside from the GPS module, there seems to be very little difference between the Ref-0 and Ref-1 modules, and I'm quite tempted to make up my own patch lead, whip out the GPS module from one of my Ref-1 units, and then couple the two Ref-1s together to see how they cope with that:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:13:15 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST 2014 wrote: Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. + Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more attention than I was when I wrote that years ago. Apparently when I was documenting what modifications I had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug shell to get the numbers instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the RFTG socket connector and those connectors being mirror images have the numbers reversed. I was out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the new posts until this morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also checked to see if I had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found this: If pin 2 is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn it on. The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you can see it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED stays on solid. So apparently some of the parts I added were to just make the light look like they were working correctly (can you spell OCD?) and may not be necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I wanted others to duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense to them. At least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with and/or adding jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the slave unit. I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can modify that and get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original unit. Sorry about the screw up on the numbers. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
, and to ground pin 3 to pin 8, and then just hang around for hours and hours on end with yer fingers crossed:-) I don't know if it's possible to monitor the J8 Diagnostic port whilst waiting for it come live, that would at least give a better idea of what's going on, but I deliberately avoided any other connections whilst trying this out so it's possible that might be inhibited also. Anyway, apologies for all the waffle, I've been topping this up as I go along whilst surviving on coffee and getting a bit groggy in the process, it's 0730 here now and no sleep yet, but once I'd had my first encouraging results there was no way I could just go to bed and leave it:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 02:00:23 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi I’ve watched the two boxes fire up. They spend a bit of time blinking lights on this one and then on that one. From watching the “dance”, I think that the transistor delay circuit (or something like it) is indeed needed. There are multiple ways the delay and sequencing could be implemented. A cheap 5V PIC is certainly one way to do it. With no voltage coming out on the connector doing a purely external solution probably is going to require external power. I think I’d at least bring that out on one of the many unused alarm pins. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 9:52 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob, I understand the consequences of not modifying the unit but, having done so and having a REF-1 unit running stand alone, I was just commenting that I wasn't sure whether or not it was necessary to implement all of Arthur's modification in order to enable the basic functionality, or whether some part of it might be purely to control the indicators. As a follow on from that I was wondering whether or not it might be possible to achieve a similar result, at least to the point of just making it functional, just by cross linking some of the out and return paths, faking it without the need for an additional powered interface if you like, not for any other reason than it might then be possible to make a plug in modification that could be fitted without needing to open the box. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 00:19:57 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi If you: 1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref 1) — and — 2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the mod) Then the unit you have will not: 1) Enable the pps out 2) Enable the 15 MHz out It will try to disciple the OCXO, but you won’t be able to see any result of that. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Anthony, It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function or whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and perhaps all that's needed for basic functionality are just the links. I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens. I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling, although I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost identical match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the other. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
So that's it folks, after all this it would now seem that all that's needed to enable a Ref-1 unit stand alone is to link together J5 pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, and to ground pin 3 to pin 8, and then just hang around for hours and hours on end with yer fingers crossed:-) I don't know if it's possible to monitor the J8 Diagnostic port whilst waiting for it come live, that would at least give a better idea of what's going on, but I deliberately avoided any other connections whilst trying this out so it's possible that might be inhibited also. Anyway, apologies for all the waffle, I've been topping this up as I go along whilst surviving on coffee and getting a bit groggy in the process, it's 0730 here now and no sleep yet, but once I'd had my first encouraging results there was no way I could just go to bed and leave it:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR I connected pin 4 also to ground permantly without observing any negative sideeffects. SDo no active electrics needed but you will (want ?!) not see STBY led blinking. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) It might explain of course why I could dispense with most of your interface but heaven knows what I've actually got strapped together! Another interesting thing I noticed, once the Ref-1 unit is up and running I can pull the plug from J5 and it keeps on going, to start with at least anyway. I pulled the plug on one unit to fit its cover and aside from the standby light starting to flash, the ON light remained on and the outputs remained enabled. It might have shut down if left like that but I haven't tried that yet. Next trick I think I'll try with just pin 3 grounded and go from there. Which raises the next question, are the connections to pins 3 and 4 actually connected to what I think are 3 and 4 or do I have that different too? Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 01:27:18 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: Keep in mind that I made the modifications to my RFTG-u REF 1 almost 4 years ago and the details of why I did what I did are kind of foggy today. It was a pure hack but I *believe* that the circuitry as well as the jumpers were required, or at least I thought so. The big problem with getting something like this to work is that after spending a lot of time on it I generally go on to the next project and as long as what I did works, I forget about it because it is a one of a kind thing. The photo link below shows the 5Mhz buffer amp I connected to the TP in front of the oscillator that uses a mounting bracket that is secured by the BNC connector that outputs the 5Mhz. The 24V/2A power supply that I mounted on the back connects across the diode on the circuit board as shown. The transistors and other components of the modification that are mounted free form on the back of the J5 connector get the +5VDC from the header directly in back of J5. The wire on the left goes through an existing hole on the circuit board to connect to the fault LED. I was hoping that someone else would duplicate the modification just to reassure me that what I did wasn't black magic. It looks like Nigel is doing just that-thanks. http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1_zps546e4c82.jpg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Oh well, and perhaps not too surprisingly, the J5 pin 3 to ground option on its own was not that much of a raging success. However, the unit did eventually come up indicating Standby, and at that point pulling out the pin 3 to ground link and inserting the previously made up plug switched it into On mode and up came the outputs. I'm sure everyone is getting a bit tired of hearing me going on about this, and it's hard to know what else to add other than to say there seems to be more than one option that will do the trick, but my wired plug as previously described, and wired according to the starting in the top right hand corner numbering scheme, does, for me at least, seem to work every time, so I think I'll just stick with that and quit whilst I'm ahead:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 01:27:18 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: Keep in mind that I made the modifications to my RFTG-u REF 1 almost 4 years ago and the details of why I did what I did are kind of foggy today. It was a pure hack but I *believe* that the circuitry as well as the jumpers were required, or at least I thought so. The big problem with getting something like this to work is that after spending a lot of time on it I generally go on to the next project and as long as what I did works, I forget about it because it is a one of a kind thing. The photo link below shows the 5Mhz buffer amp I connected to the TP in front of the oscillator that uses a mounting bracket that is secured by the BNC connector that outputs the 5Mhz. The 24V/2A power supply that I mounted on the back connects across the diode on the circuit board as shown. The transistors and other components of the modification that are mounted free form on the back of the J5 connector get the +5VDC from the header directly in back of J5. The wire on the left goes through an existing hole on the circuit board to connect to the fault LED. I was hoping that someone else would duplicate the modification just to reassure me that what I did wasn't black magic. It looks like Nigel is doing just that-thanks. http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1_zps546e4c82.jpg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
: Hi Anthony, It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function or whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and perhaps all that's needed for basic functionality are just the links. I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens. I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling, although I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost identical match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the other. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok. Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 way shell along with the switching circuits. I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might achieve the same result without the extra circuitry, so all that needs to be done now is just to identify the right pairs:-) At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some of the inter-unit signalling. Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is at http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby ? . ?? Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org ??I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a way to re-wire the crossover interface to fake out the slave detect process. That would let you run a single GPS equipped box and have it behave correctly. Without the fake wires trick none of them played nice without the slave being present ? . ?? ++ Reposting what I had posted over a week ago, in case you missed it ? . Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014 ?? ? Way back on Fri Jun 11 16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these units I had modified but at the time there wasn't a single person who was interested. I have been using the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice unit. The modifications I added (including a power supply -see photo) allows the lights to cycle through their normal sequence on warm-up and the second unit isn't needed at all ? . ?? -Arthur
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Well I for one am not getting at all bored at seeing what you are doing. I find it very encouraging that somebody is sharing all the ins and outs of figuring out what’s going on. Far to often we simply get the end result and not much detail (I for one have been rightly criticized for that within the last day or two …). Keep up the information stream. Keeping the information on the list puts it into the archives so it can be dug up by everybody. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 9:44 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Oh well, and perhaps not too surprisingly, the J5 pin 3 to ground option on its own was not that much of a raging success. However, the unit did eventually come up indicating Standby, and at that point pulling out the pin 3 to ground link and inserting the previously made up plug switched it into On mode and up came the outputs. I'm sure everyone is getting a bit tired of hearing me going on about this, and it's hard to know what else to add other than to say there seems to be more than one option that will do the trick, but my wired plug as previously described, and wired according to the starting in the top right hand corner numbering scheme, does, for me at least, seem to work every time, so I think I'll just stick with that and quit whilst I'm ahead:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 01:27:18 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: Keep in mind that I made the modifications to my RFTG-u REF 1 almost 4 years ago and the details of why I did what I did are kind of foggy today. It was a pure hack but I *believe* that the circuitry as well as the jumpers were required, or at least I thought so. The big problem with getting something like this to work is that after spending a lot of time on it I generally go on to the next project and as long as what I did works, I forget about it because it is a one of a kind thing. The photo link below shows the 5Mhz buffer amp I connected to the TP in front of the oscillator that uses a mounting bracket that is secured by the BNC connector that outputs the 5Mhz. The 24V/2A power supply that I mounted on the back connects across the diode on the circuit board as shown. The transistors and other components of the modification that are mounted free form on the back of the J5 connector get the +5VDC from the header directly in back of J5. The wire on the left goes through an existing hole on the circuit board to connect to the fault LED. I was hoping that someone else would duplicate the modification just to reassure me that what I did wasn't black magic. It looks like Nigel is doing just that-thanks. http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1_zps546e4c82.jpg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Oh, ok, thanks for that, and thanks too for the further information on the interface connector. For now though, it's me back to sleep for a while:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 14:53:01 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Well I for one am not getting at all bored at seeing what you are doing. I find it very encouraging that somebody is sharing all the ins and outs of figuring out what’s going on. Far to often we simply get the end result and not much detail (I for one have been rightly criticized for that within the last day or two …). Keep up the information stream. Keeping the information on the list puts it into the archives so it can be dug up by everybody. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 9:44 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Oh well, and perhaps not too surprisingly, the J5 pin 3 to ground option on its own was not that much of a raging success. However, the unit did eventually come up indicating Standby, and at that point pulling out the pin 3 to ground link and inserting the previously made up plug switched it into On mode and up came the outputs. I'm sure everyone is getting a bit tired of hearing me going on about this, and it's hard to know what else to add other than to say there seems to be more than one option that will do the trick, but my wired plug as previously described, and wired according to the starting in the top right hand corner numbering scheme, does, for me at least, seem to work every time, so I think I'll just stick with that and quit whilst I'm ahead:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 01:27:18 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: Keep in mind that I made the modifications to my RFTG-u REF 1 almost 4 years ago and the details of why I did what I did are kind of foggy today. It was a pure hack but I *believe* that the circuitry as well as the jumpers were required, or at least I thought so. The big problem with getting something like this to work is that after spending a lot of time on it I generally go on to the next project and as long as what I did works, I forget about it because it is a one of a kind thing. The photo link below shows the 5Mhz buffer amp I connected to the TP in front of the oscillator that uses a mounting bracket that is secured by the BNC connector that outputs the 5Mhz. The 24V/2A power supply that I mounted on the back connects across the diode on the circuit board as shown. The transistors and other components of the modification that are mounted free form on the back of the J5 connector get the +5VDC from the header directly in back of J5. The wire on the left goes through an existing hole on the circuit board to connect to the fault LED. I was hoping that someone else would duplicate the modification just to reassure me that what I did wasn't black magic. It looks like Nigel is doing just that-thanks. http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1_zps546e4c82.jpg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
I found that in the unit with the GPS, near U206, there are 3 resistor not populated: the squared 10MHz is present, so if resistor are added and the capacitor (I presume some 100pF) you ruote the 10MHz under the GPS antenna connector. Resistor are 100OHM, as seen on the unit without the GPS. On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 1:19 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi If you: 1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref 1) — and — 2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the mod) Then the unit you have will not: 1) Enable the pps out 2) Enable the 15 MHz out It will try to disciple the OCXO, but you won’t be able to see any result of that. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Anthony, It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function or whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and perhaps all that's needed for basic functionality are just the links. I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens. I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling, although I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost identical match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the other. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok. Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 way shell along with the switching circuits. I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might achieve the same result without the extra circuitry, so all that needs to be done now is just to identify the right pairs:-) At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some of the inter-unit signalling. Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is at http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby ? . ?? Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org ??I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a way to re-wire the crossover interface to fake out the slave detect process. That would let you run a single GPS equipped box and have it behave correctly. Without the fake wires trick none of them played nice without the slave being present ? . ?? ++ Reposting what I had posted over a week ago, in case you missed it ? . Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Be a bit careful there. 10 MHz times some nutty number comes up in the middle of the GPS passband (harmonics are spaced 10 MHz apart …). The GPS module may not be very happy with a CW jammer right on top of the signal it’s trying to receive. The logic chips involved to have rise times dimensioned in nanoseconds. There will be *some* energy up at 1.5 GHz. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 10:16 AM, Azelio Boriani azelio.bori...@gmail.com wrote: I found that in the unit with the GPS, near U206, there are 3 resistor not populated: the squared 10MHz is present, so if resistor are added and the capacitor (I presume some 100pF) you ruote the 10MHz under the GPS antenna connector. Resistor are 100OHM, as seen on the unit without the GPS. On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 1:19 AM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi If you: 1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref 1) — and — 2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the mod) Then the unit you have will not: 1) Enable the pps out 2) Enable the 15 MHz out It will try to disciple the OCXO, but you won’t be able to see any result of that. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Anthony, It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function or whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and perhaps all that's needed for basic functionality are just the links. I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens. I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling, although I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost identical match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the other. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok. Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 way shell along with the switching circuits. I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might achieve the same result without the extra circuitry, so all that needs to be done now is just to identify the right pairs:-) At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some of the inter-unit signalling. Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is at http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby ? . ?? Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org ??I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Here’s one other little tidbit. The original mod notes from Arthur on all this show: “ Pin 4: High = 2.4V, low = 0, Stop flashing = 1.35V” That’s exactly what you would expect to see if you are driving one side of a RS-422 differential receiver. If pair D is one side of an RS-422, then the other side might be on some other pin. It would also suggest that pin 12 should toggle from 3.5 to 1.5V. The other side of the transmitter (obviously) would follow pin 12, going from 1.5 to 3.5. Next up: “Pin 3: High =4.84V low = 0V” That is *not* what you would expect from a RS-422 setup. They must have some combo of RS-422 and CMOS on the connector. Could I be guessing wrong from things on a 4 year old note - sure. It is a testable idea. If the GPS antenna farm was back up and in place, I could check it myself…. Bob ….. Pair designations from the other post: PairEnd A End B A 1 9 B 2 10 C 3 11 D 4 12 E 5 13 F 6 14 G 7 15 ground 8 8 On Nov 2, 2014, at 9:57 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Oh, ok, thanks for that, and thanks too for the further information on the interface connector. For now though, it's me back to sleep for a while:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 14:53:01 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Well I for one am not getting at all bored at seeing what you are doing. I find it very encouraging that somebody is sharing all the ins and outs of figuring out what’s going on. Far to often we simply get the end result and not much detail (I for one have been rightly criticized for that within the last day or two …). Keep up the information stream. Keeping the information on the list puts it into the archives so it can be dug up by everybody. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 9:44 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Oh well, and perhaps not too surprisingly, the J5 pin 3 to ground option on its own was not that much of a raging success. However, the unit did eventually come up indicating Standby, and at that point pulling out the pin 3 to ground link and inserting the previously made up plug switched it into On mode and up came the outputs. I'm sure everyone is getting a bit tired of hearing me going on about this, and it's hard to know what else to add other than to say there seems to be more than one option that will do the trick, but my wired plug as previously described, and wired according to the starting in the top right hand corner numbering scheme, does, for me at least, seem to work every time, so I think I'll just stick with that and quit whilst I'm ahead:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 01:27:18 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: Keep in mind that I made the modifications to my RFTG-u REF 1 almost 4 years ago and the details of why I did what I did are kind of foggy today. It was a pure hack but I *believe* that the circuitry as well as the jumpers were required, or at least I thought so. The big problem with getting something like this to work is that after spending a lot of time on it I generally go on to the next project and as long as what I did works, I forget about it because it is a one of a kind thing. The photo link below shows the 5Mhz buffer amp I connected to the TP in front of the oscillator that uses a mounting bracket that is secured by the BNC connector that outputs the 5Mhz. The 24V/2A power supply that I mounted on the back connects across the diode on the circuit board as shown. The transistors and other components of the modification that are mounted free form on the back of the J5 connector get the +5VDC from the header directly in back of J5. The wire on the left goes through an existing hole on the circuit board to connect to the fault LED. I was hoping that someone else would duplicate the modification just to reassure me that what I did wasn't black magic. It looks like Nigel is doing just that-thanks. http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1_zps546e4c82.jpg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Thanks to a fellow Time-Nut I order one of these yesterday. I had been deleting the messages about some surplus widget. Should see it in a week so will take advantage of every ones work to date. Thanks. I did want to share an item with respect to batteries on the GPS engine. I added 2 aa batteries to the Z3801 and mounted the pack on the back and externally so that its very easy to measure the batteries and replace them. I have in the past done the internal cr2032 coin thing. Pain to replace. So far this set of aa batteries is lasting several years easily. The bigger concern is possible leakage but again visually easy to see. Vbatt over a year 2.99 to 2.93. Its a simple case of just replacing them before leakage occurs. The benefit as pointed out is the z3801 comes online much faster this way. By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 1:57 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi Here’s one other little tidbit. The original mod notes from Arthur on all this show: “ Pin 4: High = 2.4V, low = 0, Stop flashing = 1.35V” That’s exactly what you would expect to see if you are driving one side of a RS-422 differential receiver. If pair D is one side of an RS-422, then the other side might be on some other pin. It would also suggest that pin 12 should toggle from 3.5 to 1.5V. The other side of the transmitter (obviously) would follow pin 12, going from 1.5 to 3.5. Next up: “Pin 3: High =4.84V low = 0V” That is *not* what you would expect from a RS-422 setup. They must have some combo of RS-422 and CMOS on the connector. Could I be guessing wrong from things on a 4 year old note - sure. It is a testable idea. If the GPS antenna farm was back up and in place, I could check it myself…. Bob ….. Pair designations from the other post: PairEnd A End B A 1 9 B 2 10 C 3 11 D 4 12 E 5 13 F 6 14 G 7 15 ground 8 8 On Nov 2, 2014, at 9:57 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Oh, ok, thanks for that, and thanks too for the further information on the interface connector. For now though, it's me back to sleep for a while:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 14:53:01 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Well I for one am not getting at all bored at seeing what you are doing. I find it very encouraging that somebody is sharing all the ins and outs of figuring out what’s going on. Far to often we simply get the end result and not much detail (I for one have been rightly criticized for that within the last day or two …). Keep up the information stream. Keeping the information on the list puts it into the archives so it can be dug up by everybody. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 9:44 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Oh well, and perhaps not too surprisingly, the J5 pin 3 to ground option on its own was not that much of a raging success. However, the unit did eventually come up indicating Standby, and at that point pulling out the pin 3 to ground link and inserting the previously made up plug switched it into On mode and up came the outputs. I'm sure everyone is getting a bit tired of hearing me going on about this, and it's hard to know what else to add other than to say there seems to be more than one option that will do the trick, but my wired plug as previously described, and wired according to the starting in the top right hand corner numbering scheme, does, for me at least, seem to work every time, so I think I'll just stick with that and quit whilst I'm ahead:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 01:27:18 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: Keep in mind that I made the modifications to my RFTG-u REF 1 almost 4 years ago and the details of why I did what I did are kind of foggy today. It was a pure hack but I *believe* that the circuitry as well as the jumpers were required, or at least I thought so. The big problem with getting something like this to work is that after spending a lot of time on it I generally go on to the next project and as long as what I did works, I forget about it because it is a one of a kind thing. The photo link below shows the 5Mhz buffer amp I connected to the TP in front of the oscillator that uses a mounting bracket that is secured by the BNC connector that outputs the 5Mhz. The 24V/2A power supply that I mounted on the back connects across the diode on the circuit board as shown. The transistors and
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Bob, There's also the option of the SSR-6Tr and adapter board from Synergy GPS. It should plug right in. You'd need the Oncore compatible version. Kinda pricey though. Bob From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: gandal...@aol.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Ah, I had wondered about that but was probably being a bit selfish as I only have the GPS based units:-) Given the similarity, I would assume where we've got to on these wouldn't be a bad starting point, and at least identifying the 1PPS input on the interface connector should be straightforward enough. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 19:41:07 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi It *might* plug in the GPS version. It also might report more sat’s than the firmware expects and everything would quickly die. That’s certainly the case with retrofitting some of the other early GPSDO’s. I think I’d rather play with faking out non-GPS version. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:56 PM, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: Hi Bob, There's also the option of the SSR-6Tr and adapter board from Synergy GPS. It should plug right in. You'd need the Oncore compatible version. Kinda pricey though. Bob From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: gandal...@aol.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Yes, getting the GPS version worked out is certainly the thing most people will be after. Doing the other box is a bit further down the road. The main thing (to me) is documenting the 15 pin connector as best we can. That way whatever somebody decides to do in the future, they have a good starting point. Identifying which pins look like RS-422 and which look like CMOS would go a long way to figuring both sides of this out. When I did the other connectors, I just ran through them with a DVM. 2.5V = 422 input, 1.5 or 3.5 = 422 output. I didn’t have any CMOS. Everything else was either open circuit or ground. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:01 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, I had wondered about that but was probably being a bit selfish as I only have the GPS based units:-) Given the similarity, I would assume where we've got to on these wouldn't be a bad starting point, and at least identifying the 1PPS input on the interface connector should be straightforward enough. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 19:41:07 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small. I think that's backwards. The battery is only used when there is no power to the GPS module. AAs are roughly 2800 mA hours. There are 8760 hours in a year. That's 319 microamp years. (How's that for a SI unit?) So that's 3 years if your GPS module takes 100 uA. I think that's way high. Anybody measured it? There is probably a strong temperature component. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Given the expected close proximity of these units, presumably it was only ever intended that they should work as a pair, and I remember Stu Cobb commenting on how short the supplied link cable is, I wouldn't be too surprised if there turns out to be no serial comms between the units but perhaps just handshaking via asserted levels. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:12:35 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Yes, getting the GPS version worked out is certainly the thing most people will be after. Doing the other box is a bit further down the road. The main thing (to me) is documenting the 15 pin connector as best we can. That way whatever somebody decides to do in the future, they have a good starting point. Identifying which pins look like RS-422 and which look like CMOS would go a long way to figuring both sides of this out. When I did the other connectors, I just ran through them with a DVM. 2.5V = 422 input, 1.5 or 3.5 = 422 output. I didn’t have any CMOS. Everything else was either open circuit or ground. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:01 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, I had wondered about that but was probably being a bit selfish as I only have the GPS based units:-) Given the similarity, I would assume where we've got to on these wouldn't be a bad starting point, and at least identifying the 1PPS input on the interface connector should be straightforward enough. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 19:41:07 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear!! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi The numbers quoted earlier (and they sound right) were 20 uA at 2.5V. That would be well under your 100uA. My *guess* is that self discharge / aging on a normal AA is going to limit things faster than a 20 uA drain. Now, if you have the more normal tiny coin cell involved with 1/10 or 1/100 that capacity and much lower self discharge …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small. I think that's backwards. The battery is only used when there is no power to the GPS module. AAs are roughly 2800 mA hours. There are 8760 hours in a year. That's 319 microamp years. (How's that for a SI unit?) So that's 3 years if your GPS module takes 100 uA. I think that's way high. Anybody measured it? There is probably a strong temperature component. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi The supplied cable is indeed very short. It’s also quite stiff and a bit flakey (intermittent). I would bet at least one cold order of fries that there is no bi-directional serial between the two units. If there was, I doubt our little pin shorting exercises would get things running. If there is no serial at all (no GPS data), that makes using the slave for a variety of projects quite simple (and thus attractive). One back burner TimeNut project is an ensemble clock. If they are not looking at GPS strings, they are not doing sawtooth correction. That is an interesting observation (if true). These boxes have roots in the paranoid GPS SA era, so that might not be a big surprise. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:32 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Given the expected close proximity of these units, presumably it was only ever intended that they should work as a pair, and I remember Stu Cobb commenting on how short the supplied link cable is, I wouldn't be too surprised if there turns out to be no serial comms between the units but perhaps just handshaking via asserted levels. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:12:35 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Yes, getting the GPS version worked out is certainly the thing most people will be after. Doing the other box is a bit further down the road. The main thing (to me) is documenting the 15 pin connector as best we can. That way whatever somebody decides to do in the future, they have a good starting point. Identifying which pins look like RS-422 and which look like CMOS would go a long way to figuring both sides of this out. When I did the other connectors, I just ran through them with a DVM. 2.5V = 422 input, 1.5 or 3.5 = 422 output. I didn’t have any CMOS. Everything else was either open circuit or ground. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:01 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, I had wondered about that but was probably being a bit selfish as I only have the GPS based units:-) Given the similarity, I would assume where we've got to on these wouldn't be a bad starting point, and at least identifying the 1PPS input on the interface connector should be straightforward enough. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 19:41:07 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear!! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Bob The UT+ data sheet from 1998 quotes an external backup supply of 2.5 to 5.35V with a drain of 5uA typical at 2.5 Volts. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:41:44 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi The numbers quoted earlier (and they sound right) were 20 uA at 2.5V. That would be well under your 100uA. My *guess* is that self discharge / aging on a normal AA is going to limit things faster than a 20 uA drain. Now, if you have the more normal tiny coin cell involved with 1/10 or 1/100 that capacity and much lower self discharge …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small. I think that's backwards. The battery is only used when there is no power to the GPS module. AAs are roughly 2800 mA hours. There are 8760 hours in a year. That's 319 microamp years. (How's that for a SI unit?) So that's 3 years if your GPS module takes 100 uA. I think that's way high. Anybody measured it? There is probably a strong temperature component. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Just another thought though, does the diagnostic port on the slave also communicate with SatStat etc? That would imply at least a transfer of serial data in one direction, even if not for the control functions. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:49:49 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi The supplied cable is indeed very short. It’s also quite stiff and a bit flakey (intermittent). I would bet at least one cold order of fries that there is no bi-directional serial between the two units. If there was, I doubt our little pin shorting exercises would get things running. If there is no serial at all (no GPS data), that makes using the slave for a variety of projects quite simple (and thus attractive). One back burner TimeNut project is an ensemble clock. If they are not looking at GPS strings, they are not doing sawtooth correction. That is an interesting observation (if true). These boxes have roots in the paranoid GPS SA era, so that might not be a big surprise. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:32 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Given the expected close proximity of these units, presumably it was only ever intended that they should work as a pair, and I remember Stu Cobb commenting on how short the supplied link cable is, I wouldn't be too surprised if there turns out to be no serial comms between the units but perhaps just handshaking via asserted levels. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:12:35 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Yes, getting the GPS version worked out is certainly the thing most people will be after. Doing the other box is a bit further down the road. The main thing (to me) is documenting the 15 pin connector as best we can. That way whatever somebody decides to do in the future, they have a good starting point. Identifying which pins look like RS-422 and which look like CMOS would go a long way to figuring both sides of this out. When I did the other connectors, I just ran through them with a DVM. 2.5V = 422 input, 1.5 or 3.5 = 422 output. I didn’t have any CMOS. Everything else was either open circuit or ground. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:01 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, I had wondered about that but was probably being a bit selfish as I only have the GPS based units:-) Given the similarity, I would assume where we've got to on these wouldn't be a bad starting point, and at least identifying the 1PPS input on the interface connector should be straightforward enough. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 19:41:07 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’ s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear!! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi So then the question becomes - What is the real cutoff voltage? Your pair of AA’s will start off at 3.1V, but they will get to 2.5 long before they are truly dead. Is the RAM gone at 2.5000 or 2.4 or “about 2 volts” …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:54 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob The UT+ data sheet from 1998 quotes an external backup supply of 2.5 to 5.35V with a drain of 5uA typical at 2.5 Volts. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:41:44 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi The numbers quoted earlier (and they sound right) were 20 uA at 2.5V. That would be well under your 100uA. My *guess* is that self discharge / aging on a normal AA is going to limit things faster than a 20 uA drain. Now, if you have the more normal tiny coin cell involved with 1/10 or 1/100 that capacity and much lower self discharge …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small. I think that's backwards. The battery is only used when there is no power to the GPS module. AAs are roughly 2800 mA hours. There are 8760 hours in a year. That's 319 microamp years. (How's that for a SI unit?) So that's 3 years if your GPS module takes 100 uA. I think that's way high. Anybody measured it? There is probably a strong temperature component. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Good point. They could have GPS data simply to make the diag stuff happy, but not use it for the disciplining side of things. I had not considered that possibility. Others have reported SatStat working on the slave, so there is at least *some* data coming out that port. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:58 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Just another thought though, does the diagnostic port on the slave also communicate with SatStat etc? That would imply at least a transfer of serial data in one direction, even if not for the control functions. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:49:49 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi The supplied cable is indeed very short. It’s also quite stiff and a bit flakey (intermittent). I would bet at least one cold order of fries that there is no bi-directional serial between the two units. If there was, I doubt our little pin shorting exercises would get things running. If there is no serial at all (no GPS data), that makes using the slave for a variety of projects quite simple (and thus attractive). One back burner TimeNut project is an ensemble clock. If they are not looking at GPS strings, they are not doing sawtooth correction. That is an interesting observation (if true). These boxes have roots in the paranoid GPS SA era, so that might not be a big surprise. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:32 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Given the expected close proximity of these units, presumably it was only ever intended that they should work as a pair, and I remember Stu Cobb commenting on how short the supplied link cable is, I wouldn't be too surprised if there turns out to be no serial comms between the units but perhaps just handshaking via asserted levels. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:12:35 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Yes, getting the GPS version worked out is certainly the thing most people will be after. Doing the other box is a bit further down the road. The main thing (to me) is documenting the 15 pin connector as best we can. That way whatever somebody decides to do in the future, they have a good starting point. Identifying which pins look like RS-422 and which look like CMOS would go a long way to figuring both sides of this out. When I did the other connectors, I just ran through them with a DVM. 2.5V = 422 input, 1.5 or 3.5 = 422 output. I didn’t have any CMOS. Everything else was either open circuit or ground. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:01 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, I had wondered about that but was probably being a bit selfish as I only have the GPS based units:-) Given the similarity, I would assume where we've got to on these wouldn't be a bad starting point, and at least identifying the 1PPS input on the interface connector should be straightforward enough. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 19:41:07 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’ s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear!! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Ah, just found an Engineering Note in my files that again quotes 5uA at 2.5V but also quotes 100uA at 5.0V, perhaps not too relevant at 3.1V but that's quite an increase. The same document quotes the following specs for the optional onboard lithium battery... Voltage -- 3V Capacity -- 15mAh approximately 3 months between charges Recharge -- approximately 8 hours for a full charge Lifetime -- 5 Years minimum. So I guess an onboard battery conversion might still be a viable option. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 21:01:55 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi So then the question becomes - What is the real cutoff voltage? Your pair of AA’s will start off at 3.1V, but they will get to 2.5 long before they are truly dead. Is the RAM gone at 2.5000 or 2.4 or “about 2 volts ” …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:54 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob The UT+ data sheet from 1998 quotes an external backup supply of 2.5 to 5.35V with a drain of 5uA typical at 2.5 Volts. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:41:44 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi The numbers quoted earlier (and they sound right) were 20 uA at 2.5V. That would be well under your 100uA. My *guess* is that self discharge / aging on a normal AA is going to limit things faster than a 20 uA drain. Now, if you have the more normal tiny coin cell involved with 1/10 or 1/100 that capacity and much lower self discharge …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small. I think that's backwards. The battery is only used when there is no power to the GPS module. AAs are roughly 2800 mA hours. There are 8760 hours in a year. That's 319 microamp years. (How's that for a SI unit?) So that's 3 years if your GPS module takes 100 uA. I think that's way high. Anybody measured it? There is probably a strong temperature component. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi It’s those little onboard batteries that I have the experience with. After a while, you are doing well to get a month out of them. Play for a bit longer and they are down to a couple weeks. That’s not a surprising thing, the charging circuit on some of this stuff is often less than perfect. You get a lot of cycles / long life out of a properly handled battery. Abuse the poor thing and not so long a life. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:12 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, just found an Engineering Note in my files that again quotes 5uA at 2.5V but also quotes 100uA at 5.0V, perhaps not too relevant at 3.1V but that's quite an increase. The same document quotes the following specs for the optional onboard lithium battery... Voltage -- 3V Capacity -- 15mAh approximately 3 months between charges Recharge -- approximately 8 hours for a full charge Lifetime -- 5 Years minimum. So I guess an onboard battery conversion might still be a viable option. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 21:01:55 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi So then the question becomes - What is the real cutoff voltage? Your pair of AA’s will start off at 3.1V, but they will get to 2.5 long before they are truly dead. Is the RAM gone at 2.5000 or 2.4 or “about 2 volts ” …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:54 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob The UT+ data sheet from 1998 quotes an external backup supply of 2.5 to 5.35V with a drain of 5uA typical at 2.5 Volts. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:41:44 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi The numbers quoted earlier (and they sound right) were 20 uA at 2.5V. That would be well under your 100uA. My *guess* is that self discharge / aging on a normal AA is going to limit things faster than a 20 uA drain. Now, if you have the more normal tiny coin cell involved with 1/10 or 1/100 that capacity and much lower self discharge …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small. I think that's backwards. The battery is only used when there is no power to the GPS module. AAs are roughly 2800 mA hours. There are 8760 hours in a year. That's 319 microamp years. (How's that for a SI unit?) So that's 3 years if your GPS module takes 100 uA. I think that's way high. Anybody measured it? There is probably a strong temperature component. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Good conversation I am accurate in what I am saying about the z3801. Its off most of the time so it is drawing against the the AA batteries most of the time. One more note my bad, they are AAAs. Like Bob says most likely self discharge and such will get them first. No matter they get changed next year anyhow since I really don't want to enjoy some leakage and it takes just a few easy seconds to change while the system is on. I may have missed it but was curious on the 15 pin cable if it was 1 to 1. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi It’s those little onboard batteries that I have the experience with. After a while, you are doing well to get a month out of them. Play for a bit longer and they are down to a couple weeks. That’s not a surprising thing, the charging circuit on some of this stuff is often less than perfect. You get a lot of cycles / long life out of a properly handled battery. Abuse the poor thing and not so long a life. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:12 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, just found an Engineering Note in my files that again quotes 5uA at 2.5V but also quotes 100uA at 5.0V, perhaps not too relevant at 3.1V but that's quite an increase. The same document quotes the following specs for the optional onboard lithium battery... Voltage -- 3V Capacity -- 15mAh approximately 3 months between charges Recharge -- approximately 8 hours for a full charge Lifetime -- 5 Years minimum. So I guess an onboard battery conversion might still be a viable option. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 21:01:55 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi So then the question becomes - What is the real cutoff voltage? Your pair of AA’s will start off at 3.1V, but they will get to 2.5 long before they are truly dead. Is the RAM gone at 2.5000 or 2.4 or “about 2 volts ” …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:54 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob The UT+ data sheet from 1998 quotes an external backup supply of 2.5 to 5.35V with a drain of 5uA typical at 2.5 Volts. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:41:44 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi The numbers quoted earlier (and they sound right) were 20 uA at 2.5V. That would be well under your 100uA. My *guess* is that self discharge / aging on a normal AA is going to limit things faster than a 20 uA drain. Now, if you have the more normal tiny coin cell involved with 1/10 or 1/100 that capacity and much lower self discharge …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small. I think that's backwards. The battery is only used when there is no power to the GPS module. AAs are roughly 2800 mA hours. There are 8760 hours in a year. That's 319 microamp years. (How's that for a SI unit?) So that's 3 years if your GPS module takes 100 uA. I think that's way high. Anybody measured it? There is probably a strong temperature component. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
kb...@n1k.org said: The numbers quoted earlier (and they sound right) were 20 uA at 2.5V. That would be well under your 100uA. My *guess* is that self discharge / aging on a normal AA is going to limit things faster than a 20 uA drain. 20 uA would last 15 years. (assuming no self-discharge) Self discharge is temperature dependent. Graph here: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/alkaline_appman.pdf (poke the shelf-life button on the left) At 20C, alkaline lose 20% in 10 years. Or roughly 50 years for the whole thing. (assuming linear and waving my hands) The UT+ data sheet from 1998 quotes an external backup supply of 2.5 to 5.35V with a drain of 5uA typical at 2.5 Volts. Ahhh. That would be 60 years. (assuming no self-discharge) So it's roughly matching the self discharge rate. kb...@n1k.org said: Your pair of AAâs will start off at 3.1V, but they will get to 2.5 long before they are truly dead. Is the RAM gone at 2.5000 or 2.4 or âabout 2 voltsâ â¦. The usual cutoff is 0.8 V. It falls off quickly at the end. It's still 50% at 1.25 V. There is a graph at the above URL. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi The 15 pin cable is: PairEnd A End B A 1 9 B 2 10 C 3 11 D 4 12 E 5 13 F 6 14 G 7 15 ground 8 8 C above appears to be a CMOS signal. My guess is that D is 1/2 of an RS-422 pair. The rest are a “to be discovered” at this point. Treasure map (all voltages approximate): 2.5 V = RS-422 input 1.5 V = RS-422 output 3.5 V = RS-422 output (other half of the pair) O or 5 V = CMOS output Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:55 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Good conversation I am accurate in what I am saying about the z3801. Its off most of the time so it is drawing against the the AA batteries most of the time. One more note my bad, they are AAAs. Like Bob says most likely self discharge and such will get them first. No matter they get changed next year anyhow since I really don't want to enjoy some leakage and it takes just a few easy seconds to change while the system is on. I may have missed it but was curious on the 15 pin cable if it was 1 to 1. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi It’s those little onboard batteries that I have the experience with. After a while, you are doing well to get a month out of them. Play for a bit longer and they are down to a couple weeks. That’s not a surprising thing, the charging circuit on some of this stuff is often less than perfect. You get a lot of cycles / long life out of a properly handled battery. Abuse the poor thing and not so long a life. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:12 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, just found an Engineering Note in my files that again quotes 5uA at 2.5V but also quotes 100uA at 5.0V, perhaps not too relevant at 3.1V but that's quite an increase. The same document quotes the following specs for the optional onboard lithium battery... Voltage -- 3V Capacity -- 15mAh approximately 3 months between charges Recharge -- approximately 8 hours for a full charge Lifetime -- 5 Years minimum. So I guess an onboard battery conversion might still be a viable option. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 21:01:55 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi So then the question becomes - What is the real cutoff voltage? Your pair of AA’s will start off at 3.1V, but they will get to 2.5 long before they are truly dead. Is the RAM gone at 2.5000 or 2.4 or “about 2 volts ” …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:54 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob The UT+ data sheet from 1998 quotes an external backup supply of 2.5 to 5.35V with a drain of 5uA typical at 2.5 Volts. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:41:44 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi The numbers quoted earlier (and they sound right) were 20 uA at 2.5V. That would be well under your 100uA. My *guess* is that self discharge / aging on a normal AA is going to limit things faster than a 20 uA drain. Now, if you have the more normal tiny coin cell involved with 1/10 or 1/100 that capacity and much lower self discharge …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small. I think that's backwards. The battery is only used when there is no power to the GPS module. AAs are roughly 2800 mA hours. There are 8760 hours in a year. That's 319 microamp years. (How's that for a SI unit?) So that's 3 years if your GPS module takes 100 uA. I think that's way high. Anybody measured it? There is probably a strong temperature component. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi After spending some quality time with Mr. Google, I dug out some of the old UT+ information. The little beast does indeed forget everything it ever knew once you loose battery / super cap / whatever backup power. You can force a position, but it’s not persistent once you loose RAM. If these GPSDO's normally ran with nothing connected to the Diag (HP commands) port, there may not be a way to force a survey solution into the GPS. If there is a Lucent command that does that over the PPS port, I’ve not seen mention of it. The approach may well have been to save what ever you had to RAM and if you lost it, back to square one. That’s not as crazy as it sounds. Having a cell site power down for 24 hours is a “big deal”. Having one out for several days, should be a very rare thing. If the super cap does the job for a few days, that may have been all the designers cared about. In TimeNut use, the situation isn’t really all that different. These boxes take a long time to get everything all worked out and stabilized. Turning them on and off is not a real good idea. Having them coast through a 24 hour power outage (position wise) is probably good enough for most of us. If you often have outages longer than a day, cancel my request to come play at your house …. Having a nice modern GPS receiver outside the box might have it’s benefits in some cases. Getting the slave boxes figured out could be moving up on my list of things to do. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:12 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, just found an Engineering Note in my files that again quotes 5uA at 2.5V but also quotes 100uA at 5.0V, perhaps not too relevant at 3.1V but that's quite an increase. The same document quotes the following specs for the optional onboard lithium battery... Voltage -- 3V Capacity -- 15mAh approximately 3 months between charges Recharge -- approximately 8 hours for a full charge Lifetime -- 5 Years minimum. So I guess an onboard battery conversion might still be a viable option. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 21:01:55 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi So then the question becomes - What is the real cutoff voltage? Your pair of AA’s will start off at 3.1V, but they will get to 2.5 long before they are truly dead. Is the RAM gone at 2.5000 or 2.4 or “about 2 volts ” …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:54 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob The UT+ data sheet from 1998 quotes an external backup supply of 2.5 to 5.35V with a drain of 5uA typical at 2.5 Volts. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:41:44 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi The numbers quoted earlier (and they sound right) were 20 uA at 2.5V. That would be well under your 100uA. My *guess* is that self discharge / aging on a normal AA is going to limit things faster than a 20 uA drain. Now, if you have the more normal tiny coin cell involved with 1/10 or 1/100 that capacity and much lower self discharge …. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote: By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small. I think that's backwards. The battery is only used when there is no power to the GPS module. AAs are roughly 2800 mA hours. There are 8760 hours in a year. That's 319 microamp years. (How's that for a SI unit?) So that's 3 years if your GPS module takes 100 uA. I think that's way high. Anybody measured it? There is probably a strong temperature component. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Another mystery - what is on the three short pins? Usually that is done for hot-plugging things and connects the ground first before the power is applied. In this case, maybe it is some critical data lines that do not want dirty signals? I will play some more later tonight. Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: gandal...@aol.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... Hi The supplied cable is indeed very short. It’s also quite stiff and a bit flakey (intermittent). I would bet at least one cold order of fries that there is no bi-directional serial between the two units. If there was, I doubt our little pin shorting exercises would get things running. If there is no serial at all (no GPS data), that makes using the slave for a variety of projects quite simple (and thus attractive). One back burner TimeNut project is an ensemble clock. If they are not looking at GPS strings, they are not doing sawtooth correction. That is an interesting observation (if true). These boxes have roots in the paranoid GPS SA era, so that might not be a big surprise. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:32 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Given the expected close proximity of these units, presumably it was only ever intended that they should work as a pair, and I remember Stu Cobb commenting on how short the supplied link cable is, I wouldn't be too surprised if there turns out to be no serial comms between the units but perhaps just handshaking via asserted levels. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:12:35 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Yes, getting the GPS version worked out is certainly the thing most people will be after. Doing the other box is a bit further down the road. The main thing (to me) is documenting the 15 pin connector as best we can. That way whatever somebody decides to do in the future, they have a good starting point. Identifying which pins look like RS-422 and which look like CMOS would go a long way to figuring both sides of this out. When I did the other connectors, I just ran through them with a DVM. 2.5V = 422 input, 1.5 or 3.5 = 422 output. I didn’t have any CMOS. Everything else was either open circuit or ground. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:01 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, I had wondered about that but was probably being a bit selfish as I only have the GPS based units:-) Given the similarity, I would assume where we've got to on these wouldn't be a bad starting point, and at least identifying the 1PPS input on the interface connector should be straightforward enough. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 19:41:07 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear!! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Thanks Gotz 2 and 3 grounded works fine for me too, although I still have one unit that insists on flashing the ON light rather than bringing it on solid. In all other respects both units seem to match. Two more should be arriving sometime in the next couple of weeks so will see how they match up. Just for reference, pin 13 is also a ground connection so if just pushing wires into the connector it might be convenient to use both grounds. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi I bet (again the order of fries) that the ground on pin 13 that crosses to is some sort of “other box plugged in” indicator. So: The 15 pin cable is: PairEnd A End B A 1 9 B 2 10 C 3 11 (short pin on 3) D 4 12 E 5 13 (short pin on 13) F 6 14 G 7 15 ground 8 8 (short pin on 8) Pair B - CMOS signaling Pair C - CMOS signaling Pari D - one half of RS-422 Pair E - CMOS signal ? ground on pin 13 We have A, F, and G in the “to be discovered” category. One of those should be the other half of D. Something in here should be a PPS. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 5:48 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Thanks Gotz 2 and 3 grounded works fine for me too, although I still have one unit that insists on flashing the ON light rather than bringing it on solid. In all other respects both units seem to match. Two more should be arriving sometime in the next couple of weeks so will see how they match up. Just for reference, pin 13 is also a ground connection so if just pushing wires into the connector it might be convenient to use both grounds. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi It looks like (for what ever reason) both of the pins we have called grounds are short pins. The other short pin is a CMOS input that we use to fake the slave present mode. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 5:36 PM, Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net wrote: Another mystery - what is on the three short pins? Usually that is done for hot-plugging things and connects the ground first before the power is applied. In this case, maybe it is some critical data lines that do not want dirty signals? I will play some more later tonight. Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: gandal...@aol.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... Hi The supplied cable is indeed very short. It’s also quite stiff and a bit flakey (intermittent). I would bet at least one cold order of fries that there is no bi-directional serial between the two units. If there was, I doubt our little pin shorting exercises would get things running. If there is no serial at all (no GPS data), that makes using the slave for a variety of projects quite simple (and thus attractive). One back burner TimeNut project is an ensemble clock. If they are not looking at GPS strings, they are not doing sawtooth correction. That is an interesting observation (if true). These boxes have roots in the paranoid GPS SA era, so that might not be a big surprise. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:32 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Given the expected close proximity of these units, presumably it was only ever intended that they should work as a pair, and I remember Stu Cobb commenting on how short the supplied link cable is, I wouldn't be too surprised if there turns out to be no serial comms between the units but perhaps just handshaking via asserted levels. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:12:35 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi Yes, getting the GPS version worked out is certainly the thing most people will be after. Doing the other box is a bit further down the road. The main thing (to me) is documenting the 15 pin connector as best we can. That way whatever somebody decides to do in the future, they have a good starting point. Identifying which pins look like RS-422 and which look like CMOS would go a long way to figuring both sides of this out. When I did the other connectors, I just ran through them with a DVM. 2.5V = 422 input, 1.5 or 3.5 = 422 output. I didn’t have any CMOS. Everything else was either open circuit or ground. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:01 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Ah, I had wondered about that but was probably being a bit selfish as I only have the GPS based units:-) Given the similarity, I would assume where we've got to on these wouldn't be a bad starting point, and at least identifying the 1PPS input on the interface connector should be straightforward enough. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 19:41:07 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi No, once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the same thing for the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a PPS, it’s the perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS (like the Jackson Labs part …). Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Gotz That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try that later. At this rate we'll soon be finding ways of doing this without any wiring whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just standing it upside down in a dark corner on the night of the full moon:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear!! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
It would seem that the hunt for 1PPS will need to be attempted by someone with two units coupled together. I don't know if there's some sort of handshake enablement but with just the Ref-1 unit I've not been able so far to find 1PPS on the Interface connector, either during the boot up sequence or when up and running. The 1PPS on pin 6 of the RS422/1PPS connector is very easy to spot so I don't think it's just a case of me missing it on the interface. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 23:03:34 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi I bet (again the order of fries) that the ground on pin 13 that crosses to is some sort of “other box plugged in” indicator. So: The 15 pin cable is: PairEnd AEnd B A 19 B 210 C 311 (short pin on 3) D4 12 E5 13 (short pin on 13) F 614 G 715 ground 88 (short pin on 8) Pair B - CMOS signaling Pair C - CMOS signaling Pari D - one half of RS-422 Pair E - CMOS signal ? ground on pin 13 We have A, F, and G in the “to be discovered” category. One of those should be the other half of D. Something in here should be a PPS. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 5:48 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Thanks Gotz 2 and 3 grounded works fine for me too, although I still have one unit that insists on flashing the ON light rather than bringing it on solid. In all other respects both units seem to match. Two more should be arriving sometime in the next couple of weeks so will see how they match up. Just for reference, pin 13 is also a ground connection so if just pushing wires into the connector it might be convenient to use both grounds. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Well here’s some data to think about: Pin GPS box Slave box 1 o.c.1.1 K 2 10 K10 K 3 1.1 K 1.1 K 4 1.1 K 1.1 K 5 o.c.o.c. 6 1.1 K 1.1 K 7 o.c.o.c. 8 ground ground 9 10 K10K 10 o.c.o.c. 11 1.1 K 1.1 K 12 o.c.o.c. 13 gnd gnd 14 o.c.o.c. 15 o.c.1.1 K All of the above are resistance to ground on a unit with no power. Just for reference, the 422 transmitters on the PPS connector read 550 ohms, the receivers read around 3K ohms. Simply put, except for the resistors on pins 1 and 15, the two boxes look a lot alike. No idea if the open circuit (o.c.) is actually connected to something or not. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 6:25 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: It would seem that the hunt for 1PPS will need to be attempted by someone with two units coupled together. I don't know if there's some sort of handshake enablement but with just the Ref-1 unit I've not been able so far to find 1PPS on the Interface connector, either during the boot up sequence or when up and running. The 1PPS on pin 6 of the RS422/1PPS connector is very easy to spot so I don't think it's just a case of me missing it on the interface. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 23:03:34 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi I bet (again the order of fries) that the ground on pin 13 that crosses to is some sort of “other box plugged in” indicator. So: The 15 pin cable is: PairEnd AEnd B A 19 B 210 C 311 (short pin on 3) D4 12 E5 13 (short pin on 13) F 614 G 715 ground 88 (short pin on 8) Pair B - CMOS signaling Pair C - CMOS signaling Pari D - one half of RS-422 Pair E - CMOS signal ? ground on pin 13 We have A, F, and G in the “to be discovered” category. One of those should be the other half of D. Something in here should be a PPS. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 5:48 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Thanks Gotz 2 and 3 grounded works fine for me too, although I still have one unit that insists on flashing the ON light rather than bringing it on solid. In all other respects both units seem to match. Two more should be arriving sometime in the next couple of weeks so will see how they match up. Just for reference, pin 13 is also a ground connection so if just pushing wires into the connector it might be convenient to use both grounds. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, but on pins 4, 6, 11, and 13. As far as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector as shown starts in the top right hand corner and every row is numbered right to left. That's certainly how mine are numbered anyway, and I wired them accordingly, and it worked, so where the heck does that leave us now?:-) -- thanks Nigel for detecting this glitch. I removed all jumpers now and tested some reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple scheme: it seems to be sufficient to connect pin2 and pin3 to pin8 (ground). Numbering as provided by Nigel and markings on my 15 pin-plug. Götz ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Here’s another way to look at the data: pin pin res res Pairfromto fromto A 1 9 oc/1k 10k B 2 10 10K o.c. C 3 11 1K 1K (short pin on 3) D 4 12 1K o.c. E 5 13 o.c.gnd (short pin on 13) F 6 14 1K o.c. G 7 15 o.c.o.c./ 1K I don’t know if that’s more clear or more confusing. It certainly suggests there are a variety of things going on. OC on one, 1K on the other D,F and 1/2 G Different GPS, Slave A,G OC on one end 10K on the other B and 1/2 A OC one end Ground on the other E 1K both ends C OC both ends 1/2 G 1K and 10K 1/2 A I suspect some of the open circuits are just that - no connect. I wonder what happens if you plug two GPS’s together or two slaves together? Some of the odd pins may be to sort that kind of thing out. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 9:11 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote: Hi Well here’s some data to think about: Pin GPS box Slave box 1 o.c.1.1 K 2 10 K10 K 3 1.1 K 1.1 K 4 1.1 K 1.1 K 5 o.c.o.c. 6 1.1 K 1.1 K 7 o.c.o.c. 8 ground ground 9 10 K10K 10o.c.o.c. 111.1 K 1.1 K 12o.c.o.c. 13gnd gnd 14o.c.o.c. 15o.c.1.1 K All of the above are resistance to ground on a unit with no power. Just for reference, the 422 transmitters on the PPS connector read 550 ohms, the receivers read around 3K ohms. Simply put, except for the resistors on pins 1 and 15, the two boxes look a lot alike. No idea if the open circuit (o.c.) is actually connected to something or not. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 6:25 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: It would seem that the hunt for 1PPS will need to be attempted by someone with two units coupled together. I don't know if there's some sort of handshake enablement but with just the Ref-1 unit I've not been able so far to find 1PPS on the Interface connector, either during the boot up sequence or when up and running. The 1PPS on pin 6 of the RS422/1PPS connector is very easy to spot so I don't think it's just a case of me missing it on the interface. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 23:03:34 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi I bet (again the order of fries) that the ground on pin 13 that crosses to is some sort of “other box plugged in” indicator. So: The 15 pin cable is: PairEnd AEnd B A 19 B 210 C 311 (short pin on 3) D4 12 E5 13 (short pin on 13) F 614 G 715 ground 88 (short pin on 8) Pair B - CMOS signaling Pair C - CMOS signaling Pari D - one half of RS-422 Pair E - CMOS signal ? ground on pin 13 We have A, F, and G in the “to be discovered” category. One of those should be the other half of D. Something in here should be a PPS. Bob On Nov 2, 2014, at 5:48 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Thanks Gotz 2 and 3 grounded works fine for me too, although I still have one unit that insists on flashing the ON light rather than bringing it on solid. In all other respects both units seem to match. Two more should be arriving sometime in the next couple of weeks so will see how they match up. Just for reference, pin 13 is also a ground connection so if just pushing wires into the connector it might be convenient to use both grounds. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT Standard Time, go...@g-romahn.de writes: Am 02.11.2014 15:08, : Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !! Arthur, I've only just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and unless I've really got my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the expression:-), your links on J5 are not shown on
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
I've confirmed from the model number that the GPS module on these is indeed an Oncore UT+. There's a Synergy engineering note available regarding Oncore battery backup, and one place a copy can be found is here... http://f6fgz.free.fr/Fichiers/GPS/Backup_Battery_Considerations.pdf If so desired, it would be possible to retrospectively convert the UT+ on the Z3811A to take the usual rechargeable battery but the precautions mentioned in the engineering note would need to be implemented. I'm running file checks on my archives right now so can't confirm exactly what's involved, but I think there's one zero ohm SMD chip to be removed at least, and fitting a battery can of course bring its own issues. If anyone's interested, I've just uploaded some detailed photos of the of RFTG-U Ref-1 circuit board to Didier's manuals site. Probably far more detail there than even the nuttiest of us might consider to be sane or healthy but I've got it apart anyway so what the heck and they might come in very useful if it decides to self destruct whilst I'm poking it about on the bench:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 06:20:00 GMT Standard Time, b...@evoria.net writes: Hi Bob et al, I don't understand the direction this question about the supercap has taken. It's connected to pin 1 of the GPS receiver. It looks to be a UT+, so that's the battery backup power. According to my UT+ manual the current draw on this pin is between 5uA (at 2.5V) and 100uA (at 5V)? How many hours will a .022F supercap keep at least 2.5V at that sort of discharge rate? Unless the cap has gone bad, it seems more likely that Bob's comment about it doing a fast survey and then doing a slower one in the background probably has merit. In fact, my unit goes through its survey mode pretty quickly on power up. So do those current/voltage figures imply several hours on the cap? Bob From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Hi I sort of doubt that a GPS aux supply is quite that low current. I have seen some RTC’s that won’t last a month on a coin cell. My recollection is that the Oncore backup is closer to that category than the “many years on a cap” group. Bob On Oct 31, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote: Hi Bob: When HP came out with the 300 series Rocky Mountain Basic computers they were fitted with a super cap to power the RTC. I will keep time for some months. http://www.prc68.com/I/HPIB.shtml#300 Mail_Attachment -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html Bob Camp wrote: Hi The ultra cap is a pretty small one (physical small). You might be able to find a larger (more farads) one that would fit in the same space. It’s not going to help for a hours and hours sort of outage. It might get you from dying in 15 minutes to dying in a half hour. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok. Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 way shell along with the switching circuits. I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might achieve the same result without the extra circuitry, so all that needs to be done now is just to identify the right pairs:-) At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some of the inter-unit signalling. Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is at http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby ? . ?? Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org ??I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a way to re-wire the crossover interface to fake out the slave detect process. That would let you run a single GPS equipped box and have it behave correctly. Without the fake wires trick none of them played nice without the slave being present ? . ?? ++ Reposting what I had posted over a week ago, in case you missed it ? . Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014 ?? ? Way back on Fri Jun 11 16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these units I had modified but at the time there wasn't a single person who was interested. I have been using the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice unit. The modifications I added (including a power supply -see photo) allows the lights to cycle through their normal sequence on warm-up and the second unit isn't needed at all ? . ?? -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok. Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 way shell along with the switching circuits. I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might achieve the same result without the extra circuitry, so all that needs to be done now is just to identify the right pairs:-) At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some of the inter-unit signalling. Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is at http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby ? . ?? Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org ??I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a way to re-wire the crossover interface to fake out the slave detect process. That would let you run a single GPS equipped box and have it behave correctly. Without the fake wires trick none of them played nice without the slave being present ? . ?? ++ Reposting what I had posted over a week ago, in case you missed it ? . Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014 ?? ? Way back on Fri Jun 11 16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these units I had modified but at the time there wasn't a single person who was interested. I have been using the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice unit. The modifications I added (including a power supply -see photo) allows the lights to cycle through their normal sequence on warm-up and the second unit isn't needed at all ? . ?? -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi It’s an added circuit you need to build up and add to the box. It fakes out the slave detection logic. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 6:41 PM, Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com wrote: I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok. Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 way shell along with the switching circuits. I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might achieve the same result without the extra circuitry, so all that needs to be done now is just to identify the right pairs:-) At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some of the inter-unit signalling. Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is at http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby ? . ?? Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org ??I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a way to re-wire the crossover interface to fake out the slave detect process. That would let you run a single GPS equipped box and have it behave correctly. Without the fake wires trick none of them played nice without the slave being present ? . ?? ++ Reposting what I had posted over a week ago, in case you missed it ? . Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014 ?? ? Way back on Fri Jun 11 16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these units I had modified but at the time there wasn't a single person who was interested. I have been using the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice unit. The modifications I added (including a power supply -see photo) allows the lights to cycle through their normal sequence on warm-up and the second unit isn't needed at all ? . ?? -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Anthony, It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function or whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and perhaps all that's needed for basic functionality are just the links. I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens. I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling, although I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost identical match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the other. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok. Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 way shell along with the switching circuits. I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might achieve the same result without the extra circuitry, so all that needs to be done now is just to identify the right pairs:-) At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some of the inter-unit signalling. Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is at http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby ? . ?? Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org ??I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a way to re-wire the crossover interface to fake out the slave detect process. That would let you run a single GPS equipped box and have it behave correctly. Without the fake wires trick none of them played nice without the slave being present ? . ?? ++ Reposting what I had posted over a week ago, in case you missed it ? . Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014 ?? ? Way back on Fri Jun 11 16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these units I had modified but at the time there wasn't a single person who was interested. I have been using the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice unit. The modifications I added (including a power supply -see photo) allows the lights to cycle through their normal sequence on warm-up and the second unit isn't needed at all ? . ?? -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi If you: 1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref 1) — and — 2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the mod) Then the unit you have will not: 1) Enable the pps out 2) Enable the 15 MHz out It will try to disciple the OCXO, but you won’t be able to see any result of that. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Anthony, It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function or whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and perhaps all that's needed for basic functionality are just the links. I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens. I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling, although I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost identical match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the other. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok. Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 way shell along with the switching circuits. I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might achieve the same result without the extra circuitry, so all that needs to be done now is just to identify the right pairs:-) At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some of the inter-unit signalling. Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is at http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby ? . ?? Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org ??I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector / jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a way to re-wire the crossover interface to fake out the slave detect process. That would let you run a single GPS equipped box and have it behave correctly. Without the fake wires trick none of them played nice without the slave being present ? . ?? ++ Reposting what I had posted over a week ago, in case you missed it ? . Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:59:48 EDT 2014 ?? ? Way back on Fri Jun 11 16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these units I had modified but at the time there wasn't a single person who was interested. I have been using the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice unit. The modifications I added (including
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Bob, I understand the consequences of not modifying the unit but, having done so and having a REF-1 unit running stand alone, I was just commenting that I wasn't sure whether or not it was necessary to implement all of Arthur's modification in order to enable the basic functionality, or whether some part of it might be purely to control the indicators. As a follow on from that I was wondering whether or not it might be possible to achieve a similar result, at least to the point of just making it functional, just by cross linking some of the out and return paths, faking it without the need for an additional powered interface if you like, not for any other reason than it might then be possible to make a plug in modification that could be fitted without needing to open the box. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 00:19:57 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi If you: 1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref 1) — and — 2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the mod) Then the unit you have will not: 1) Enable the pps out 2) Enable the 15 MHz out It will try to disciple the OCXO, but you won’t be able to see any result of that. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Anthony, It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function or whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and perhaps all that's needed for basic functionality are just the links. I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens. I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling, although I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost identical match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the other. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok. Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 way shell along with the switching circuits. I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might achieve the same result without the extra circuitry, so all that needs to be done now is just to identify the right pairs:-) At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some of the inter-unit signalling. Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25:02 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is at http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net ?? ? I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi I’ve watched the two boxes fire up. They spend a bit of time blinking lights on this one and then on that one. From watching the “dance”, I think that the transistor delay circuit (or something like it) is indeed needed. There are multiple ways the delay and sequencing could be implemented. A cheap 5V PIC is certainly one way to do it. With no voltage coming out on the connector doing a purely external solution probably is going to require external power. I think I’d at least bring that out on one of the many unused alarm pins. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 9:52 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob, I understand the consequences of not modifying the unit but, having done so and having a REF-1 unit running stand alone, I was just commenting that I wasn't sure whether or not it was necessary to implement all of Arthur's modification in order to enable the basic functionality, or whether some part of it might be purely to control the indicators. As a follow on from that I was wondering whether or not it might be possible to achieve a similar result, at least to the point of just making it functional, just by cross linking some of the out and return paths, faking it without the need for an additional powered interface if you like, not for any other reason than it might then be possible to make a plug in modification that could be fitted without needing to open the box. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 00:19:57 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi If you: 1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref 1) — and — 2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the mod) Then the unit you have will not: 1) Enable the pps out 2) Enable the 15 MHz out It will try to disciple the OCXO, but you won’t be able to see any result of that. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Anthony, It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function or whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and perhaps all that's needed for basic functionality are just the links. I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens. I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling, although I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost identical match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the other. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required. Whether or not this is part or all of the reason that my green on light is flashing rather than steady I don't know, but I am seeing the 1PPS and 15MHz outputs and the 15MHz looks to be conditioning ok. Aside from the 5 volt supply, which I'm picking off from pin 5 of the header between u33 and U34, and the aforementioned fault LED connection, all the other connections can be made to J5 externally and could be housed in a 15 way shell along with the switching circuits. I'm still hopeful that some cross linking of the right pairs might achieve the same result without the extra circuitry, so all that needs to be done now is just to identify the right pairs:-) At least with it up and running it should be easier to check out some of the inter-unit signalling. Thanks Arthur, your efforts are much appreciated. regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 15:25
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Arthur, Thanks for the extra information, it sounds like you may well have answered my question:-) As I commented to Bob, I was hoping I might be able to find an option that didn't require any internal access, I knew that was a long shot anyway but I quite liked the idea of a plug and go solution. Anyway, I can assure you that what you did wasn't just black magic, or at least that if it was the magic still works:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 01:27:18 GMT Standard Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: Keep in mind that I made the modifications to my RFTG-u REF 1 almost 4 years ago and the details of why I did what I did are kind of foggy today. It was a pure hack but I *believe* that the circuitry as well as the jumpers were required, or at least I thought so. The big problem with getting something like this to work is that after spending a lot of time on it I generally go on to the next project and as long as what I did works, I forget about it because it is a one of a kind thing. The photo link below shows the 5Mhz buffer amp I connected to the TP in front of the oscillator that uses a mounting bracket that is secured by the BNC connector that outputs the 5Mhz. The 24V/2A power supply that I mounted on the back connects across the diode on the circuit board as shown. The transistors and other components of the modification that are mounted free form on the back of the J5 connector get the +5VDC from the header directly in back of J5. The wire on the left goes through an existing hole on the circuit board to connect to the fault LED. I was hoping that someone else would duplicate the modification just to reassure me that what I did wasn't black magic. It looks like Nigel is doing just that-thanks. http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1_zps546e4c82.jpg ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
That's one down side of course of only buying the REF-1 units, not having any idea of the normal behaviour. It's certainly sounding like any hopes of a purely passive solution is one for the wishful thinking department. I'd still like to minimise any internal modifications, and mounting Arthur's switching circuit inside a connector body wouldn't be difficult, so will still check to see if there's any way of routing power out via the 15 way connector. That still leaves the fault light connection but I was pretty sure I've already established that just holding that input high to match the fault light would enable it to start up ok but fiddling with it just now I'm back to a fault light and not outputs. Perhaps I should have left well alone:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 02:00:23 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi I’ve watched the two boxes fire up. They spend a bit of time blinking lights on this one and then on that one. From watching the “dance”, I think that the transistor delay circuit (or something like it) is indeed needed. There are multiple ways the delay and sequencing could be implemented. A cheap 5V PIC is certainly one way to do it. With no voltage coming out on the connector doing a purely external solution probably is going to require external power. I think I’d at least bring that out on one of the many unused alarm pins. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 9:52 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Bob, I understand the consequences of not modifying the unit but, having done so and having a REF-1 unit running stand alone, I was just commenting that I wasn't sure whether or not it was necessary to implement all of Arthur's modification in order to enable the basic functionality, or whether some part of it might be purely to control the indicators. As a follow on from that I was wondering whether or not it might be possible to achieve a similar result, at least to the point of just making it functional, just by cross linking some of the out and return paths, faking it without the need for an additional powered interface if you like, not for any other reason than it might then be possible to make a plug in modification that could be fitted without needing to open the box. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 02/11/2014 00:19:57 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org writes: Hi If you: 1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref 1) — and — 2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the mod) Then the unit you have will not: 1) Enable the pps out 2) Enable the 15 MHz out It will try to disciple the OCXO, but you won’t be able to see any result of that. Bob On Nov 1, 2014, at 7:05 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Anthony, It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function or whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and perhaps all that's needed for basic functionality are just the links. I'm leaving well alone for now to let the oscillator run overnight but will try it again tomorrow with just the links and see what happens. I'm also hoping to get some idea of the between unit signalling, although I only have Z3811s I'm hoping, with the boards being an almost identical match, that what goes one way should be matched by what comes the other. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 01/11/2014 22:41:09 GMT Standard Time, ar...@antamy.com writes: I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter? Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8--- via time-nuts Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 4:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick, although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet. I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just pushed into the sockets, and for the same reason I don't have any computer connection at the moment either. My implementation isn't quite as described, in that I've not made a connection to the fault LED but am just manually pulling that input high and low on the breadboard with another wire link as required
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Bob others I have the Lucent pair, RFTG-m XO and m-Rb and I have never succeeded in obtaining an interface to communicate with them. Is it possible that with so many manufacturers being involved with the specification and build, that an interface is available ? Roy -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 2:09 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... Hi The days of published schematics started to draw to a close 15 or 20 years ago. By the time the Z3xxx’s came out, they probably didn’t even generate a “publication ready” schematic. Troubleshooting this sort of gizmo simply does not make economic sense. Swap out the power supply, swap out the OCXO, swap out the GPS module, swap out the front panel ( or any other attached board). If that doesn’t fix it - scrap out the unit. If you are not going to use the schematic for repairs, the only thing it does is make it easy for your competition to clone the device. The “swap whole assemblies” thing started at least 10 years before the schematics went away. Back then you could easily see why. Custom ASIC this, custom screened / selected that, non-standard something else. Guess what *always* broke? Guess which part took a “factory only” test set to calibrate if you did somehow replace it? (hint - they are the same part ….). It’s not just the field repair end of things that have gone this way. The manufacturing line has done the same thing. Put it together right the first time. Scrap something less than 0.5% of the finished assemblies. You can’t afford to set up to replace stuff like fine pitch BGA’s for the money you would recover on 0.5%. Spend the same money on process control as you used to on troubleshooting. You’ll drive the 0.5% down to 0.3% (which is how you got from 10% to 5% to 3% to 1.5% to 1% to 0.5% …). The flip side of the repair approach is reliability. Monitor the return rate on “fixed” units for a while and it’s pretty easy to spot a pattern. That was true even back in the 1970’s. Back then a “no trouble found” return didn’t count against your numbers. Those days are long long gone….. Run repaired units through a full blown battery of qualification testing and see what happens. Yes you can indeed find / buy / get “rectified” gear. Any more it’s mostly done by board swapping and re-testing. Much of what they get back is indeed NTF. Test it and back out it goes. Read the reviews on rectified gear and you can see the result. All that said. There have been a number of attempts to trace out schematics of some of these goodies. Things like the FEI Rb’s, the TBolt’s, and other similar parts are typical candidates. In each case you get to the boundary of a CPU and / or a FPGA pretty fast. In some cases there are code dumps on the CPU’s. I have not seen any dumps on the FPGA’s. With most designs, once you put a fairly large FPGA (not a CPLD) on the board, you have moved most of the “schematic” into it. What’s left on the pcb around it is just the analog this and that you could not pull into the FPGA. That seems to stop these efforts dead. The Z3xxx’s are done with varying levels of integration. The newer ones (like the Trimble completion) tend to be more “big CPU plus big FPGA” surrounded by not much else. Could you trace one out? Sure, if they didn’t set the security bits. Would it take some custom gear, yes, but not all *that* custom. eBay will provide you with all you need for less than the cost of a Z3xxx. Are the FPGA dumps easy to turn into a schematic - not so much. You are talking about a lot of time to reverse one of these boards back to the schematic stage. Bob On Oct 24, 2014, at 12:27 AM, Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net wrote: I am surprised the schematics for these have not surfaced yet. Are they not out of support now? I got a set and am awaiting on a power supply and some connectors. Anyone have a source for the latches for the D connectors? Tom - Original Message - From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... My curiosity got the better of me so I ordered these earlier this week and received them today. I've powered both up and quickly measured the 10MHz output. I don't yet have a GPS antenna feed that I can connect, so couldn't check that out. And I need to look into why both of the units have the Fault and StdBy lights illuminated. I was surprised how compact they are and they weight next to nothing. And they are very nicely made. I took the tops off both and took some photos (see http://goo.gl/87e8GG), but have not ventured into unscrewing everything to get to the bottom of the boards. From
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Since some of these RFTG’s seem to have different KS numbers, it’s quite possible that they have different interface requirements. They never were intended as a stand alone piece of gear. The intent was to burry them deep inside a Lucent basestation. The only thing that would ever talk to them would be a higher level piece of custom Lucent code. I think it is reasonable to believe that boxes of a given generation all would share some sort of common interface, even if they didn’t share the same KS designation. I doubt they wanted to have to many different things to change around on a single basestation design. Since the RFTG’s span decades of designs, there are bound to be multiple generations. Odd little tidbit, they claim that something 95% of the engineering hours go into software and 5% go into hardware on a modern basestation design. One more odd piece of code may not matter a lot to them ... Bob On Oct 26, 2014, at 10:18 AM, R.Phillips phill...@btinternet.com wrote: Bob others I have the Lucent pair, RFTG-m XO and m-Rb and I have never succeeded in obtaining an interface to communicate with them. Is it possible that with so many manufacturers being involved with the specification and build, that an interface is available ? Roy -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 2:09 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812... Hi The days of published schematics started to draw to a close 15 or 20 years ago. By the time the Z3xxx’s came out, they probably didn’t even generate a “publication ready” schematic. Troubleshooting this sort of gizmo simply does not make economic sense. Swap out the power supply, swap out the OCXO, swap out the GPS module, swap out the front panel ( or any other attached board). If that doesn’t fix it - scrap out the unit. If you are not going to use the schematic for repairs, the only thing it does is make it easy for your competition to clone the device. The “swap whole assemblies” thing started at least 10 years before the schematics went away. Back then you could easily see why. Custom ASIC this, custom screened / selected that, non-standard something else. Guess what *always* broke? Guess which part took a “factory only” test set to calibrate if you did somehow replace it? (hint - they are the same part ….). It’s not just the field repair end of things that have gone this way. The manufacturing line has done the same thing. Put it together right the first time. Scrap something less than 0.5% of the finished assemblies. You can’t afford to set up to replace stuff like fine pitch BGA’s for the money you would recover on 0.5%. Spend the same money on process control as you used to on troubleshooting. You’ll drive the 0.5% down to 0.3% (which is how you got from 10% to 5% to 3% to 1.5% to 1% to 0.5% …). The flip side of the repair approach is reliability. Monitor the return rate on “fixed” units for a while and it’s pretty easy to spot a pattern. That was true even back in the 1970’s. Back then a “no trouble found” return didn’t count against your numbers. Those days are long long gone….. Run repaired units through a full blown battery of qualification testing and see what happens. Yes you can indeed find / buy / get “rectified” gear. Any more it’s mostly done by board swapping and re-testing. Much of what they get back is indeed NTF. Test it and back out it goes. Read the reviews on rectified gear and you can see the result. All that said. There have been a number of attempts to trace out schematics of some of these goodies. Things like the FEI Rb’s, the TBolt’s, and other similar parts are typical candidates. In each case you get to the boundary of a CPU and / or a FPGA pretty fast. In some cases there are code dumps on the CPU’s. I have not seen any dumps on the FPGA’s. With most designs, once you put a fairly large FPGA (not a CPLD) on the board, you have moved most of the “schematic” into it. What’s left on the pcb around it is just the analog this and that you could not pull into the FPGA. That seems to stop these efforts dead. The Z3xxx’s are done with varying levels of integration. The newer ones (like the Trimble completion) tend to be more “big CPU plus big FPGA” surrounded by not much else. Could you trace one out? Sure, if they didn’t set the security bits. Would it take some custom gear, yes, but not all *that* custom. eBay will provide you with all you need for less than the cost of a Z3xxx. Are the FPGA dumps easy to turn into a schematic - not so much. You are talking about a lot of time to reverse one of these boards back to the schematic stage. Bob On Oct 24, 2014, at 12:27 AM, Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net wrote: I am surprised the schematics for these have
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
I pulled both boards out of the cases and have uploaded some shots of the undersides of the boards (http://goo.gl/87e8GG). With the GPS-equipped board powered on (but no GPS attached), there was no single coming out of the pads for the 10MHz SMA adapter. The only part missing that I see compared to the other unit is U207, which connects directly to the alarm output. J8 does give a 5MHz sine wave. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Arthur Dent Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 2:52 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Anthony Roby aroby at antamy.com wrote: My curiosity got the better of me so I ordered these earlier this week and received them today. I've powered both up and quickly measured the 10MHz output. I don't yet have a GPS antenna feed that I can connect, so couldn't check that out. And I need to look into why both of the units have the Fault and StdBy lights illuminated. I was surprised how compact they are and they weight next to nothing. And they are very nicely made. I took the tops off both and took some photos (see http://goo.gl/87e8GG), but have not ventured into unscrewing everything to get to the bottom of the boards. From the top, I didn't immediately spot anything extra on the board for the 10MHz out. All the extras appear to be for the GPS, but the underside of the boards may tell a different story. Without an antenna the units will not operate properly and the ON light will stay off. Near the front of the oscillator on the edge of the board is a hole marked J8. This is the 5Mhz sine wave from the oscillator and I fed this through a capacitor to my buffer amp to get 5Mhz out. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Anthony, Thanks for more pics. Was there any indication of where the 10MHz gets its signal? Could you see a trace, or did I miss that in the pics? I'm a bit too ham-fisted to go prodding around in mine, so I've left it closed after an initial urge to see the top of the board. Bob From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... I pulled both boards out of the cases and have uploaded some shots of the undersides of the boards (http://goo.gl/87e8GG). With the GPS-equipped board powered on (but no GPS attached), there was no single coming out of the pads for the 10MHz SMA adapter. The only part missing that I see compared to the other unit is U207, which connects directly to the alarm output. J8 does give a 5MHz sine wave. Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
I have not yet investigated further, but I didn't see any obvious traces. I need to get a bright light behind the board and see if there is an internal layer that I can trace. I'll let you know what I find. -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Stewart Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 1:29 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Hi Anthony, Thanks for more pics. Was there any indication of where the 10MHz gets its signal? Could you see a trace, or did I miss that in the pics? I'm a bit too ham-fisted to go prodding around in mine, so I've left it closed after an initial urge to see the top of the board. Bob From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... I pulled both boards out of the cases and have uploaded some shots of the undersides of the boards (http://goo.gl/87e8GG). With the GPS-equipped board powered on (but no GPS attached), there was no single coming out of the pads for the 10MHz SMA adapter. The only part missing that I see compared to the other unit is U207, which connects directly to the alarm output. J8 does give a 5MHz sine wave. Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
b...@evoria.net said: Thanks for more pics. Was there any indication of where the 10MHz gets its signal? Could you see a trace, or did I miss that in the pics? I'm a bit too ham-fisted to go prodding around in mine, so I've left it closed after an initial urge to see the top of the board. If you look carefully at the pictures showing the bottom of the connector area on the 10 MHz and Antenna connectors you can see that the connectors don't share any mounting/connecting holes on the PCB. If you want 10 MHz out of the unit with the GPS module, you can get it from the center pin of the unused connector. (You may have to add other parts to get 10 MHz over there.) An alternative migh be to move the antenna connector on the GPS module from the bottom to the top, then use a pigtail lead to the panel. That may not work. From the pictures, it looks like power to the antenna is added to the trace on the bottom of the board. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hal - there's nothing coming out of those connectors. I'll explore again once I can get my GPS connected to the unit and see if that changes anything. -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 4:11 PM To: Bob Stewart; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Cc: hmur...@megapathdsl.net Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... b...@evoria.net said: Thanks for more pics. Was there any indication of where the 10MHz gets its signal? Could you see a trace, or did I miss that in the pics? I'm a bit too ham-fisted to go prodding around in mine, so I've left it closed after an initial urge to see the top of the board. If you look carefully at the pictures showing the bottom of the connector area on the 10 MHz and Antenna connectors you can see that the connectors don't share any mounting/connecting holes on the PCB. If you want 10 MHz out of the unit with the GPS module, you can get it from the center pin of the unused connector. (You may have to add other parts to get 10 MHz over there.) An alternative migh be to move the antenna connector on the GPS module from the bottom to the top, then use a pigtail lead to the panel. That may not work. From the pictures, it looks like power to the antenna is added to the trace on the bottom of the board. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Ah, hadn't spotted the latches. I've used something similar in the past, might still have a couple around somewhere, but my first inclination would be to convert them to standard screw types. That's assuming they would fit of course, but Anthony's photos suggest they should. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 24/10/2014 06:26:26 GMT Daylight Time, tmiller11...@verizon.net writes: I am surprised the schematics for these have not surfaced yet. Are they not out of support now? I got a set and am awaiting on a power supply and some connectors. Anyone have a source for the latches for the D connectors? Tom - Original Message - From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... My curiosity got the better of me so I ordered these earlier this week and received them today. I've powered both up and quickly measured the 10MHz output. I don't yet have a GPS antenna feed that I can connect, so couldn't check that out. And I need to look into why both of the units have the Fault and StdBy lights illuminated. I was surprised how compact they are and they weight next to nothing. And they are very nicely made. I took the tops off both and took some photos (see http://goo.gl/87e8GG), but have not ventured into unscrewing everything to get to the bottom of the boards. From the top, I didn't immediately spot anything extra on the board for the 10MHz out. All the extras appear to be for the GPS, but the underside of the boards may tell a different story. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Stewart Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... My units came in today. What I got appears to be new-in-box. It's probably the only thing I'll ever get with a blue Agilent sticker on the box. =) It has a yellow Symmetricom notice inside the box. The circuit board appears to be the same on both units, but that says nothing about the firmware, of course. The REF-1 has an Oncore receiver labeled TM-AB - whichever one that is, small parts to support it, and a TNC connector for the GPS receiver. The REF-0 is missing everything related to the receiver, and has an SMA for the 10MHz output in the space where the REF-1 has the TNC along with a few extra small parts. This is a shared space with both SMA and TNC pads, though they don't seem to share the same electrical path. Since the SMA and TNC share the same physical space, even if the 10MHz is available somewhere, you'd have to do some surgery on the case before you could bring it out. Probably by adding a hole in the case for the GPS antenna and using the pad space for the SMA. It will be a day or two before I have the bits to apply power and connect an antenna. So, that's what I know. I'd probably just break something if I tried to find and bring out the 10MHz, so I'll have to leave that to someone else. But, the appropriate signals need to get between the boards, so I wonder what's on the Interface pins? Maybe just arbitration, 1PPS, and sawtooth comms? In my case, I do need the 10MHz, so I'm just as happy to have bought both units at this point. Maybe, down the road, someone will come up with the mods to convert a REF-1 into a REF-0, and vice versa, unless the firmware prevents that. Bob From: GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:59 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering these for some time, so perhaps another hidden gem:-), but it's perhaps also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a standby should the first one fail. In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better off buying two of those for the same money that the matched pair would cost. The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that it contains a 10MHz output. However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available, so I would suspect
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
At the bottom right of the page is a list of slidelocks. You should be able to put together what you need from that. http://www.mouser.com/catalogviewer/default.aspx?page=1605highlight=706-160X10689Xcatalogculture=en-UScatalog=647 Bob - AE6RV From: Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... I am surprised the schematics for these have not surfaced yet. Are they not out of support now? I got a set and am awaiting on a power supply and some connectors. Anyone have a source for the latches for the D connectors? Tom - Original Message - From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... My curiosity got the better of me so I ordered these earlier this week and received them today. I've powered both up and quickly measured the 10MHz output. I don't yet have a GPS antenna feed that I can connect, so couldn't check that out. And I need to look into why both of the units have the Fault and StdBy lights illuminated. I was surprised how compact they are and they weight next to nothing. And they are very nicely made. I took the tops off both and took some photos (see http://goo.gl/87e8GG), but have not ventured into unscrewing everything to get to the bottom of the boards. From the top, I didn't immediately spot anything extra on the board for the 10MHz out. All the extras appear to be for the GPS, but the underside of the boards may tell a different story. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Stewart Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... My units came in today. What I got appears to be new-in-box. It's probably the only thing I'll ever get with a blue Agilent sticker on the box. =) It has a yellow Symmetricom notice inside the box. The circuit board appears to be the same on both units, but that says nothing about the firmware, of course. The REF-1 has an Oncore receiver labeled TM-AB - whichever one that is, small parts to support it, and a TNC connector for the GPS receiver. The REF-0 is missing everything related to the receiver, and has an SMA for the 10MHz output in the space where the REF-1 has the TNC along with a few extra small parts. This is a shared space with both SMA and TNC pads, though they don't seem to share the same electrical path. Since the SMA and TNC share the same physical space, even if the 10MHz is available somewhere, you'd have to do some surgery on the case before you could bring it out. Probably by adding a hole in the case for the GPS antenna and using the pad space for the SMA. It will be a day or two before I have the bits to apply power and connect an antenna. So, that's what I know. I'd probably just break something if I tried to find and bring out the 10MHz, so I'll have to leave that to someone else. But, the appropriate signals need to get between the boards, so I wonder what's on the Interface pins? Maybe just arbitration, 1PPS, and sawtooth comms? In my case, I do need the 10MHz, so I'm just as happy to have bought both units at this point. Maybe, down the road, someone will come up with the mods to convert a REF-1 into a REF-0, and vice versa, unless the firmware prevents that. Bob From: GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:59 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering these for some time, so perhaps another hidden gem:-), but it's perhaps also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a standby should the first one fail. In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better off buying two of those for the same money that the matched pair would cost. The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that it contains a 10MHz output. However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi The days of published schematics started to draw to a close 15 or 20 years ago. By the time the Z3xxx’s came out, they probably didn’t even generate a “publication ready” schematic. Troubleshooting this sort of gizmo simply does not make economic sense. Swap out the power supply, swap out the OCXO, swap out the GPS module, swap out the front panel ( or any other attached board). If that doesn’t fix it - scrap out the unit. If you are not going to use the schematic for repairs, the only thing it does is make it easy for your competition to clone the device. The “swap whole assemblies” thing started at least 10 years before the schematics went away. Back then you could easily see why. Custom ASIC this, custom screened / selected that, non-standard something else. Guess what *always* broke? Guess which part took a “factory only” test set to calibrate if you did somehow replace it? (hint - they are the same part ….). It’s not just the field repair end of things that have gone this way. The manufacturing line has done the same thing. Put it together right the first time. Scrap something less than 0.5% of the finished assemblies. You can’t afford to set up to replace stuff like fine pitch BGA’s for the money you would recover on 0.5%. Spend the same money on process control as you used to on troubleshooting. You’ll drive the 0.5% down to 0.3% (which is how you got from 10% to 5% to 3% to 1.5% to 1% to 0.5% …). The flip side of the repair approach is reliability. Monitor the return rate on “fixed” units for a while and it’s pretty easy to spot a pattern. That was true even back in the 1970’s. Back then a “no trouble found” return didn’t count against your numbers. Those days are long long gone….. Run repaired units through a full blown battery of qualification testing and see what happens. Yes you can indeed find / buy / get “rectified” gear. Any more it’s mostly done by board swapping and re-testing. Much of what they get back is indeed NTF. Test it and back out it goes. Read the reviews on rectified gear and you can see the result. All that said. There have been a number of attempts to trace out schematics of some of these goodies. Things like the FEI Rb’s, the TBolt’s, and other similar parts are typical candidates. In each case you get to the boundary of a CPU and / or a FPGA pretty fast. In some cases there are code dumps on the CPU’s. I have not seen any dumps on the FPGA’s. With most designs, once you put a fairly large FPGA (not a CPLD) on the board, you have moved most of the “schematic” into it. What’s left on the pcb around it is just the analog this and that you could not pull into the FPGA. That seems to stop these efforts dead. The Z3xxx’s are done with varying levels of integration. The newer ones (like the Trimble completion) tend to be more “big CPU plus big FPGA” surrounded by not much else. Could you trace one out? Sure, if they didn’t set the security bits. Would it take some custom gear, yes, but not all *that* custom. eBay will provide you with all you need for less than the cost of a Z3xxx. Are the FPGA dumps easy to turn into a schematic - not so much. You are talking about a lot of time to reverse one of these boards back to the schematic stage. Bob On Oct 24, 2014, at 12:27 AM, Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net wrote: I am surprised the schematics for these have not surfaced yet. Are they not out of support now? I got a set and am awaiting on a power supply and some connectors. Anyone have a source for the latches for the D connectors? Tom - Original Message - From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... My curiosity got the better of me so I ordered these earlier this week and received them today. I've powered both up and quickly measured the 10MHz output. I don't yet have a GPS antenna feed that I can connect, so couldn't check that out. And I need to look into why both of the units have the Fault and StdBy lights illuminated. I was surprised how compact they are and they weight next to nothing. And they are very nicely made. I took the tops off both and took some photos (see http://goo.gl/87e8GG), but have not ventured into unscrewing everything to get to the bottom of the boards. From the top, I didn't immediately spot anything extra on the board for the 10MHz out. All the extras appear to be for the GPS, but the underside of the boards may tell a different story. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Stewart Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
My units came in today. What I got appears to be new-in-box. It's probably the only thing I'll ever get with a blue Agilent sticker on the box. =) It has a yellow Symmetricom notice inside the box. The circuit board appears to be the same on both units, but that says nothing about the firmware, of course. The REF-1 has an Oncore receiver labeled TM-AB - whichever one that is, small parts to support it, and a TNC connector for the GPS receiver. The REF-0 is missing everything related to the receiver, and has an SMA for the 10MHz output in the space where the REF-1 has the TNC along with a few extra small parts. This is a shared space with both SMA and TNC pads, though they don't seem to share the same electrical path. Since the SMA and TNC share the same physical space, even if the 10MHz is available somewhere, you'd have to do some surgery on the case before you could bring it out. Probably by adding a hole in the case for the GPS antenna and using the pad space for the SMA. It will be a day or two before I have the bits to apply power and connect an antenna. So, that's what I know. I'd probably just break something if I tried to find and bring out the 10MHz, so I'll have to leave that to someone else. But, the appropriate signals need to get between the boards, so I wonder what's on the Interface pins? Maybe just arbitration, 1PPS, and sawtooth comms? In my case, I do need the 10MHz, so I'm just as happy to have bought both units at this point. Maybe, down the road, someone will come up with the mods to convert a REF-1 into a REF-0, and vice versa, unless the firmware prevents that. Bob From: GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:59 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering these for some time, so perhaps another hidden gem:-), but it's perhaps also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a standby should the first one fail. In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better off buying two of those for the same money that the matched pair would cost. The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that it contains a 10MHz output. However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available, so I would suspect it wouldn't be too difficult on these either. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 20/10/2014 05:53:29 GMT Daylight Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: Fellow time-nuts, This (long) post is a review of the HP/Symmetricom Z3810A (or Z3810AS) GPSDO system built for Lucent circa 2000. I wrote it because I looked for more information before I bought one, and couldn't find much. It's relevant because (as of this writing), you can buy a full system on the usual auction site for about $150 plus shipping. For those of you lamenting the dearth of cheap Thunderbolts, this looks like one of the best deals going. The description of these objects does not include GPSDO, so time-nuts may have missed it. Search for one of the part numbers in the subject line and you should find it. So what is it? It's a dual GPSDO built by HP as a reference (Redundant Frequency and Time Generator, or RFTG) for a Lucent cell-phone base station, built to Lucent's spec KS-24361. Internally, it's a close cousin of a later-model Z3805A. Externally, it looks to be almost a drop-in replacement for the earlier RFTG system built to Lucent's spec KS-24019. That was a redundant system containing one rubidium (LPRO, in the one I have) and one OCXO in two almost-identical boxes. That spec went through several revisions with slightly different nameplates and presumably slightly different internals. You can generally find one or two examples on the auction site (search for RFTG or KS-24019). This system is similar, but the two boxes each contain a Milliren (MTI) 260-0624-C 5.000MHz DOCXO, and neither contains a rubidium. The Milliren DOXCO is the same one used in the later models of the HP Z3805A / 58503A. It's a very high-performance DOCXO, in the same class as the legendary HP 10811, and better than the one in most surplus Thunderbolts. The 5 MHz output is multiplied up to 10 MHz in at least one unit, and 15 MHz in both units. I don't have the ability to measure phase noise on these outputs, but I'd be interested to see the results if someone could. Nomenclature: The Z3810AS
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Also of interest is the three pin connector behind the osc labeled Vref, Rtn, and EFC. Present on both boards. Manufacturing test input? bob darby On 10/23/2014 1:19 PM, Bob Stewart wrote: My units came in today. What I got appears to be new-in-box. It's probably the only thing I'll ever get with a blue Agilent sticker on the box. =) It has a yellow Symmetricom notice inside the box. The circuit board appears to be the same on both units, but that says nothing about the firmware, of course. The REF-1 has an Oncore receiver labeled TM-AB - whichever one that is, small parts to support it, and a TNC connector for the GPS receiver. The REF-0 is missing everything related to the receiver, and has an SMA for the 10MHz output in the space where the REF-1 has the TNC along with a few extra small parts. This is a shared space with both SMA and TNC pads, though they don't seem to share the same electrical path. Since the SMA and TNC share the same physical space, even if the 10MHz is available somewhere, you'd have to do some surgery on the case before you could bring it out. Probably by adding a hole in the case for the GPS antenna and using the pad space for the SMA. It will be a day or two before I have the bits to apply power and connect an antenna. So, that's what I know. I'd probably just break something if I tried to find and bring out the 10MHz, so I'll have to leave that to someone else. But, the appropriate signals need to get between the boards, so I wonder what's on the Interface pins? Maybe just arbitration, 1PPS, and sawtooth comms? In my case, I do need the 10MHz, so I'm just as happy to have bought both units at this point. Maybe, down the road, someone will come up with the mods to convert a REF-1 into a REF-0, and vice versa, unless the firmware prevents that. Bob From: GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:59 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering these for some time, so perhaps another hidden gem:-), but it's perhaps also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a standby should the first one fail. In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better off buying two of those for the same money that the matched pair would cost. The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that it contains a 10MHz output. However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available, so I would suspect it wouldn't be too difficult on these either. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 20/10/2014 05:53:29 GMT Daylight Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: Fellow time-nuts, This (long) post is a review of the HP/Symmetricom Z3810A (or Z3810AS) GPSDO system built for Lucent circa 2000. I wrote it because I looked for more information before I bought one, and couldn't find much. It's relevant because (as of this writing), you can buy a full system on the usual auction site for about $150 plus shipping. For those of you lamenting the dearth of cheap Thunderbolts, this looks like one of the best deals going. The description of these objects does not include GPSDO, so time-nuts may have missed it. Search for one of the part numbers in the subject line and you should find it. So what is it? It's a dual GPSDO built by HP as a reference (Redundant Frequency and Time Generator, or RFTG) for a Lucent cell-phone base station, built to Lucent's spec KS-24361. Internally, it's a close cousin of a later-model Z3805A. Externally, it looks to be almost a drop-in replacement for the earlier RFTG system built to Lucent's spec KS-24019. That was a redundant system containing one rubidium (LPRO, in the one I have) and one OCXO in two almost-identical boxes. That spec went through several revisions with slightly different nameplates and presumably slightly different internals. You can generally find one or two examples on the auction site (search for RFTG or KS-24019). This system is similar, but the two boxes each contain a Milliren (MTI) 260-0624-C 5.000MHz DOCXO, and neither contains a rubidium. The Milliren DOXCO is the same one used in the later models of the HP Z3805A / 58503A. It's a very high-performance DOCXO, in the same class as the legendary HP 10811, and better than the one in most surplus Thunderbolts. The 5 MHz output is multiplied up to 10 MHz in at least one unit
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Bob Many thanks for the feedback, that's very useful. I had assumed from the photos of the two units that a degree of surgery would be required to bring out the 10MHz on the REF-1, if only because the 10MHz and GPS connectors currently use the same hole in the panel. I had also wondered if one of the connectors might already use a flying lead, not having considered that they might use a shared space in quite in the way you describe, but that obviously makes sense if the two are never intended to co-exist and I understand better now. I've so far had to rely on the auction photos for any hint as to what's inside the boxes, which does make for a rather limited view:-) I don't know how closely the interconnecting cable will match that for the RFTG-m, that one uses 9 pin connectors so may be a bit more restricted but I would have expected them to be similar at least. If you haven't already got them, there's some RFTG-m manuals and files available on Didier's manual site, including one with details of the interconnecting cable. Obviously those best placed to consider any conversion between units would be those with one of each available as samples, so there's one downside to buying two the same after all:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 23/10/2014 18:23:24 GMT Daylight Time, b...@evoria.net writes: My units came in today. What I got appears to be new-in-box. It's probably the only thing I'll ever get with a blue Agilent sticker on the box. =) It has a yellow Symmetricom notice inside the box. The circuit board appears to be the same on both units, but that says nothing about the firmware, of course. The REF-1 has an Oncore receiver labeled TM-AB - whichever one that is, small parts to support it, and a TNC connector for the GPS receiver. The REF-0 is missing everything related to the receiver, and has an SMA for the 10MHz output in the space where the REF-1 has the TNC along with a few extra small parts. This is a shared space with both SMA and TNC pads, though they don't seem to share the same electrical path. Since the SMA and TNC share the same physical space, even if the 10MHz is available somewhere, you'd have to do some surgery on the case before you could bring it out. Probably by adding a hole in the case for the GPS antenna and using the pad space for the SMA. It will be a day or two before I have the bits to apply power and connect an antenna. So, that's what I know. I'd probably just break something if I tried to find and bring out the 10MHz, so I'll have to leave that to someone else. But, the appropriate signals need to get between the boards, so I wonder what's on the Interface pins? Maybe just arbitration, 1PPS, and sawtooth comms? In my case, I do need the 10MHz, so I'm just as happy to have bought both units at this point. Maybe, down the road, someone will come up with the mods to convert a REF-1 into a REF-0, and vice versa, unless the firmware prevents that. Bob From: GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:59 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering these for some time, so perhaps another hidden gem:-), but it's perhaps also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a standby should the first one fail. In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better off buying two of those for the same money that the matched pair would cost. The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that it contains a 10MHz output. However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available, so I would suspect it wouldn't be too difficult on these either. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 20/10/2014 05:53:29 GMT Daylight Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: Fellow time-nuts, This (long) post is a review of the HP/Symmetricom Z3810A (or Z3810AS) GPSDO system built for Lucent circa 2000. I wrote it because I looked for more information before I bought one, and couldn't find much. It's relevant because (as of this writing), you can buy a full system on the usual auction site for about $150 plus shipping. For those of you lamenting the dearth of cheap Thunderbolts, this looks like one of the best deals going. The description of these objects does not include GPSDO, so time-nuts may have missed
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
H, that is interesting. Reminds me somewhat of the pads on the Trimble/Nortel GPSTM modules that allow connectors to be fitted for use of offboard oscillators. These are beginning to sound more fascinating by the minute:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 23/10/2014 20:00:22 GMT Daylight Time, bobda...@triad.rr.com writes: Also of interest is the three pin connector behind the osc labeled Vref, Rtn, and EFC. Present on both boards. Manufacturing test input? bob darby On 10/23/2014 1:19 PM, Bob Stewart wrote: My units came in today. What I got appears to be new-in-box. It's probably the only thing I'll ever get with a blue Agilent sticker on the box. =) It has a yellow Symmetricom notice inside the box. The circuit board appears to be the same on both units, but that says nothing about the firmware, of course. The REF-1 has an Oncore receiver labeled TM-AB - whichever one that is, small parts to support it, and a TNC connector for the GPS receiver. The REF-0 is missing everything related to the receiver, and has an SMA for the 10MHz output in the space where the REF-1 has the TNC along with a few extra small parts. This is a shared space with both SMA and TNC pads, though they don't seem to share the same electrical path. Since the SMA and TNC share the same physical space, even if the 10MHz is available somewhere, you'd have to do some surgery on the case before you could bring it out. Probably by adding a hole in the case for the GPS antenna and using the pad space for the SMA. It will be a day or two before I have the bits to apply power and connect an antenna. So, that's what I know. I'd probably just break something if I tried to find and bring out the 10MHz, so I'll have to leave that to someone else. But, the appropriate signals need to get between the boards, so I wonder what's on the Interface pins? Maybe just arbitration, 1PPS, and sawtooth comms? In my case, I do need the 10MHz, so I'm just as happy to have bought both units at this point. Maybe, down the road, someone will come up with the mods to convert a REF-1 into a REF-0, and vice versa, unless the firmware prevents that. Bob From: GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:59 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering these for some time, so perhaps another hidden gem:-), but it's perhaps also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a standby should the first one fail. In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better off buying two of those for the same money that the matched pair would cost. The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that it contains a 10MHz output. However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available, so I would suspect it wouldn't be too difficult on these either. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 20/10/2014 05:53:29 GMT Daylight Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: Fellow time-nuts, This (long) post is a review of the HP/Symmetricom Z3810A (or Z3810AS) GPSDO system built for Lucent circa 2000. I wrote it because I looked for more information before I bought one, and couldn't find much. It's relevant because (as of this writing), you can buy a full system on the usual auction site for about $150 plus shipping. For those of you lamenting the dearth of cheap Thunderbolts, this looks like one of the best deals going. The description of these objects does not include GPSDO, so time-nuts may have missed it. Search for one of the part numbers in the subject line and you should find it. So what is it? It's a dual GPSDO built by HP as a reference (Redundant Frequency and Time Generator, or RFTG) for a Lucent cell-phone base station, built to Lucent's spec KS-24361. Internally, it's a close cousin of a later-model Z3805A. Externally, it looks to be almost a drop-in replacement for the earlier RFTG system built to Lucent's spec KS-24019. That was a redundant system containing one rubidium (LPRO, in the one I have) and one OCXO in two almost-identical boxes. That spec went through several revisions with slightly different nameplates and presumably slightly different internals. You can generally find one or two
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
My curiosity got the better of me so I ordered these earlier this week and received them today. I've powered both up and quickly measured the 10MHz output. I don't yet have a GPS antenna feed that I can connect, so couldn't check that out. And I need to look into why both of the units have the Fault and StdBy lights illuminated. I was surprised how compact they are and they weight next to nothing. And they are very nicely made. I took the tops off both and took some photos (see http://goo.gl/87e8GG), but have not ventured into unscrewing everything to get to the bottom of the boards. From the top, I didn't immediately spot anything extra on the board for the 10MHz out. All the extras appear to be for the GPS, but the underside of the boards may tell a different story. Anthony -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Stewart Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... My units came in today. What I got appears to be new-in-box. It's probably the only thing I'll ever get with a blue Agilent sticker on the box. =) It has a yellow Symmetricom notice inside the box. The circuit board appears to be the same on both units, but that says nothing about the firmware, of course. The REF-1 has an Oncore receiver labeled TM-AB - whichever one that is, small parts to support it, and a TNC connector for the GPS receiver. The REF-0 is missing everything related to the receiver, and has an SMA for the 10MHz output in the space where the REF-1 has the TNC along with a few extra small parts. This is a shared space with both SMA and TNC pads, though they don't seem to share the same electrical path. Since the SMA and TNC share the same physical space, even if the 10MHz is available somewhere, you'd have to do some surgery on the case before you could bring it out. Probably by adding a hole in the case for the GPS antenna and using the pad space for the SMA. It will be a day or two before I have the bits to apply power and connect an antenna. So, that's what I know. I'd probably just break something if I tried to find and bring out the 10MHz, so I'll have to leave that to someone else. But, the appropriate signals need to get between the boards, so I wonder what's on the Interface pins? Maybe just arbitration, 1PPS, and sawtooth comms? In my case, I do need the 10MHz, so I'm just as happy to have bought both units at this point. Maybe, down the road, someone will come up with the mods to convert a REF-1 into a REF-0, and vice versa, unless the firmware prevents that. Bob From: GandalfG8--- via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:59 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering these for some time, so perhaps another hidden gem:-), but it's perhaps also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a standby should the first one fail. In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better off buying two of those for the same money that the matched pair would cost. The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that it contains a 10MHz output. However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available, so I would suspect it wouldn't be too difficult on these either. Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 20/10/2014 05:53:29 GMT Daylight Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: Fellow time-nuts, This (long) post is a review of the HP/Symmetricom Z3810A (or Z3810AS) GPSDO system built for Lucent circa 2000. I wrote it because I looked for more information before I bought one, and couldn't find much. It's relevant because (as of this writing), you can buy a full system on the usual auction site for about $150 plus shipping. For those of you lamenting the dearth of cheap Thunderbolts, this looks like one of the best deals going. The description of these objects does not include GPSDO, so time-nuts may have missed it. Search for one of the part numbers in the subject line and you should find it. So what is it? It's a dual GPSDO built by HP as a reference (Redundant Frequency and Time Generator, or RFTG) for a Lucent cell-phone base station, built to Lucent's spec KS-24361. Internally, it's a close cousin of a later
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Message: 7 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 06:59:04 -0400 From: gandal...@aol.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Message-ID: eac2.4de53503.41779...@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering these for some time, so perhaps another hidden gem:-), but it's perhaps also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a standby should the first one fail. In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better off buying two of those for the same money that the matched pair would cost. The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that it contains a 10MHz output. However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available, so I would suspect it wouldn't be too difficult on these either. Regards Nigel GM8PZR I'm sorry, but most of this is inaccurate. The earlier RFTG units (built by Datum and its successors, I think) had one rubidium and one OCXO. Both were disciplined by the GPS receiver. In the set that I have (RFTGm-II Rb and XO), the diagnostic software can actually display a list of the last ten or so frequency and time corrections to both the Rb and the OCXO (two separate lists). The OCXO is indeed a backup in these units, but it is disciplined by the GPS receiver so that it is constantly ready to take over if needed. The current HP units appear to function the same way. Both units contain the equivalent of a Z3805A, and both steer their OCXOs to lock to GPS time and frequency. Both can be interrogated independently to observe their steering corrections and statistics. I assume that the PPS and timetag data is fed across the interconnect cable from the unit with a GPS receiver to the one without. Finally, the current HP units are completely different internally from the older RFTG units. The 10 MHz modification mentioned above does not apply to the HP units. I believe there is an equivalent modification, involving several surface-mount resistors, one surface-mount capacitor, and an output cable, that can add a 10 MHz output to the unit which lacks it. However, I have not yet completed or tested this mod. If I get it to work reliably, I will post it to the list. A better solution for time-nuts would be to repurpose the 15 MHz outputs on both units and set them up to output 10 MHz instead. However, that mod would require much more detailed tracing of the circuitry than I have done. Cheers! -Stu ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Stewart, I get my units in on Thursday and the misc to get them going on Friday. I have a feeling it's going to be a long night of a weekend =). Looking forward to what we can all find out about these units. They can't help but help me along in developing my GPSDO engine. Bob - AE6RV From: Stewart Cobb stewart.c...@gmail.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 1:37 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Message: 7 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 06:59:04 -0400 From: gandal...@aol.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Message-ID: eac2.4de53503.41779...@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering these for some time, so perhaps another hidden gem:-), but it's perhaps also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a standby should the first one fail. In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better off buying two of those for the same money that the matched pair would cost. The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that it contains a 10MHz output. However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available, so I would suspect it wouldn't be too difficult on these either. Regards Nigel GM8PZR I'm sorry, but most of this is inaccurate. The earlier RFTG units (built by Datum and its successors, I think) had one rubidium and one OCXO. Both were disciplined by the GPS receiver. In the set that I have (RFTGm-II Rb and XO), the diagnostic software can actually display a list of the last ten or so frequency and time corrections to both the Rb and the OCXO (two separate lists). The OCXO is indeed a backup in these units, but it is disciplined by the GPS receiver so that it is constantly ready to take over if needed. The current HP units appear to function the same way. Both units contain the equivalent of a Z3805A, and both steer their OCXOs to lock to GPS time and frequency. Both can be interrogated independently to observe their steering corrections and statistics. I assume that the PPS and timetag data is fed across the interconnect cable from the unit with a GPS receiver to the one without. Finally, the current HP units are completely different internally from the older RFTG units. The 10 MHz modification mentioned above does not apply to the HP units. I believe there is an equivalent modification, involving several surface-mount resistors, one surface-mount capacitor, and an output cable, that can add a 10 MHz output to the unit which lacks it. However, I have not yet completed or tested this mod. If I get it to work reliably, I will post it to the list. A better solution for time-nuts would be to repurpose the 15 MHz outputs on both units and set them up to output 10 MHz instead. However, that mod would require much more detailed tracing of the circuitry than I have done. Cheers! -Stu ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Stewart Yup, I was certainly wrong re the conditioning, sorry about that and thanks for the correction. I was under the impression from way back that in the original RFTG setup it was only the OCXO that was GPS conditioned but see now the manual, that I've also had from way back, confirms exactly what you say. RTFM obviously holds as good today as it ever did:-) However, aside from the incorrect justification, I still believe for anyone not actually needing the redundancy, and even for those who might fancy the idea but don't actually require it in the same physical frame, that two of the GPS inclusive units, especially at the same price as the matched pair, are a much better deal and potentially a lot more useful. That of course would not apply if one unit contained a rubidium module such as with your RFTGm, regardless of whether or not that was GPS conditioned, but for two units virtually identical except for one lacking the GPS module then, for me at least, the conclusion seemed obvious. I'm well aware that these units are not physically the same as earlier versions but was just using the previous modification by way of example to suggest that modifying these for 10MHz might also be reasonably straightforward. This was based in part at least on an assumption that, as in previous versions, both units are likely to share the same circuit board but whether such modification is really necessary, other than just because, I'm not too sure anyway. I suspect repurposing of the 15MHz outputs to 10MHz might not be too straightforward either. A few years ago Efratom rubidium modules were being sold from China with Lucent 15MHz interface boards still attached but less the outer cases, perhaps part of the original FRTG?, and these contained a very nice purpose built 15MHz synthesiser, complete with hardware band pass filtering etc. I still have the schematic somewhere, prepared at the time by another list member, and it soon became fairly obvious that in the real world the best use for that board was to provide an interface connector to the rubidium module and to ditch the frequency conversion altogether. Similarly, with this RFTG-u kit I'd be more inclined to look for ways of routing the native 5MHz from the GPS conditioned Milliren 260 series oscillator to the outside world, and to just treat any other use found for the processed 15MHz as a bonus:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 22/10/2014 07:38:07 GMT Daylight Time, stewart.c...@gmail.com writes: Message: 7 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 06:59:04 -0400 From: gandal...@aol.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812... Message-ID: eac2.4de53503.41779...@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It seems from the auction revision table that this seller has been offering these for some time, so perhaps another hidden gem:-), but it's perhaps also worth noting that if this system functions on similar principles to earlier RFTG kit then the GPS conditioning is only applied to the unit actually containing the GPS module, with the other unit intended as a standby should the first one fail. In other words, unless the system redundancy is really required most users would probably only need the GPS based unit, or would at least be better off buying two of those for the same money that the matched pair would cost. The only advantage, as far as I'm aware anyway, of the non-GPS unit is that it contains a 10MHz output. However, Skip Withrow published modification details in January 2013 showing how straightforward it was to add the the 10MHz output, to the RFTGm-II-XO module, the PCB location for the socket was already available, so I would suspect it wouldn't be too difficult on these either. Regards Nigel GM8PZR I'm sorry, but most of this is inaccurate. The earlier RFTG units (built by Datum and its successors, I think) had one rubidium and one OCXO. Both were disciplined by the GPS receiver. In the set that I have (RFTGm-II Rb and XO), the diagnostic software can actually display a list of the last ten or so frequency and time corrections to both the Rb and the OCXO (two separate lists). The OCXO is indeed a backup in these units, but it is disciplined by the GPS receiver so that it is constantly ready to take over if needed. The current HP units appear to function the same way. Both units contain the equivalent of a Z3805A, and both steer their OCXOs to lock to GPS time and frequency. Both can be interrogated independently to observe their steering corrections and statistics. I assume that the PPS and timetag data is fed across the interconnect cable from the unit with a GPS receiver to the one without. Finally, the current HP units are completely different internally from the older RFTG units. The 10 MHz
Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
Hi Arthur, Thanks for the photo, I was just going to play it by ear but it's always handy to have a starting point. I did take a look back at June 2010 and eventually found your RFTG comments under a discussion on the Z3815A, so might be why I didn't recall seeing them previously, and that month being a busy one some quite heated discussions might have offered further distractions:-) I'm running a fair bit of 5MHz kit here already and didn't think I really needed these when I first saw them a few months ago but in the end that price was just too good to resist, even including international shipping and UK taxes. Perhaps the realisation that the going rate for used MTI 260s alone seems to be $30 and upwards these days might also have had something to do with it:-) Regards Nigel GM8PZR In a message dated 22/10/2014 19:23:32 GMT Daylight Time, golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes: GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Wed Oct 22 04:35:40 EDT 2014 Similarly, with this RFTG-u kit I'd be more inclined to look for ways of routing the native 5MHz from the GPS conditioned Milliren 260 series oscillator to the outside world, and to just treat any other use found for the processed 15MHz as a bonus:-) ++ This was kind of my thinking on trying to use this Lucent unit as well. Way back on Fri Jun 11 16:48:43 UTC 2010 I posted about using one of these units I had modified but at the time there wasn't a single person who was interested. I have been using the RFTG-u REF1 since then and it is a nice unit. The modifications I added (including a power supply -see photo) allows the lights to cycle through their normal secquence on warm-up and the second unit isn't needed at all. I can't give you any reason why I used the general purpose transistors instead of a single IC quad inverter which might have worked as well or how I stumbled upon why I did what I did back then but it does work. Here's what I posted to Time-Nuts 4 years ago. Like most Lucent units the RFTG-u REF1 was made to run with another back-up unit for redundancy, needed an interconnect cable, and has no information available. I managed to figure out a way to make it work as a standalone unit and ran the 5Mhz from the OXCO thru a QBits amplifier to give me 5Mhz output instead of the Lucent standard of 15Mhz. I haven't carefully checked it against the other GPSDOs I have running but with the modifications I made to allow it to work solo, it seems to be a pretty good plug-and-play unit. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
