Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
After some additional reading, I agree with you, Abd. Or perhaps I should just say that my assertions from last evening were false and I'm now even more confused you are. Which I will take as step forward ... it is far better to be confused than to be wrong. Jeff On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 8:45 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 08:11 PM 12/28/2012, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: I think a lot of the reasoning about photons, above, is wrong. The red shift has nothing to do with gravity, only the relative velocity of the photon source relative to the observer. Eek. Apparently not. If an event just outside the event horizon of a black hole emits a photon, an observer at rest relative to the black hole will observe no red shift regardless the strength of the black hole's gravitational field. Apprently this is not so, and it directly contradicts many sources that might be expected to get it right. The red shift is not a motion-related doppler shift, it is a gravitational shift, purely. If the observer then accelerates away from the black hole, similar photons emitted from the same source will appear to be red shifted. It's entirely an observational effect. There is no loss of energy from the photon and no need to store anything anywhere. This topic is a continual temptation to me to stick my foot in my mouth. What I'm getting is that there is a lot I don't understand about black holes and particularly about the event horizon. Essentially, I've felt that I have a decent understanding of special relativity, but general relativity is another animal, and gravitational effects on light are an aspect of general relativity. The event horizon, it is being said, is the point at which no path exists for the photon to escape, to travel away from the singularity. This is caused by the intensity of the gravitational field, which is a fixed value at the event horizon. That's the value that allows no escape. Just outide the event horizon, the photon may escape, but does not escape unscathed. It loses energy climbing the gravitational potential field. It red-shifts as it loses energy. (That energy is being converted to potential energy, just as with any object with momentum away from a gravity source loses momentum, trading it for potential energy.) The puzzle to me here is the statement made that an object travelling toward the black hole will not only be seen through a red shift, but will also appear to slow, such that it never passes the event horizon, it just gets closer, but more and more slowly, until it is red-shifted out of observability. It is alleged that this takes forever. And I don't understand that. To resolve this, part of what I'll need to look at are the equations for gravitational red shift, or the effect of gravity on light. Then I can look at what would happen with light emitted outside the event horizon (which I presume will fall out of the gravitational equations), and can construct a thought-experiment for an object approaching the event horizon, which was the original problem here. It *looks* to me like some material that is popularly stated about black holes and event horizons might be incorrect, but I certainly don't know enough to claim that with any clarity. I *do* imagine that I know enough to deny that the red shift being talked about here is the ordinary doppler shift, i.e., due to the relative velocity between the source and the reference frame.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 05:25 PM 12/29/2012, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: After some additional reading, I agree with you, Abd. Or perhaps I should just say that my assertions from last evening were false and I'm now even more confused you are. Which I will take as step forward ... it is far better to be confused than to be wrong. Yes. Absolutely. Confusion is the beginning of knowledge. Don't be in a hurry to get rid of confusion! Let it be! Keep looking. This is a path to deep knowledge, in fact. (By the way, also don't worry too much about being wrong. Being wrong is one of the fastest ways to learn. It's amazing how many people get that backwards. Just don't be attached to being right. (I.e. don't assume that what you know is true.) That's the death of learning!
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I disagree with this! [snip] If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space.[/snip] Equivalent velocity is a function of the environment, ie a gravity well or warp in space time, the velocity of the object is unchanged locally whether we discuss our equivalent acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 or a near luminal equivalent acceleration approaching an event horizon. In both cases the acceleration still dilates space-time in the Pythagorean relationship of V^2/C^2 such that it is almost negligible until you reach large fractions of C. The photon is always traveling at C from it's local perspective - A Lorentzian perspective would say the ether always intersects our 3d plane at the same local rate C and that time dilation and Lorentzian contraction is natures way of dealing with the inconsistency. It would be nice to compare it to an aircraft with a head wind or tail wind with one extraordinary difference.. the rate of the head or tail wind redefines our time quanta proportionally. My whole point here is that gravity doesn't steal energy to red shift a photon.. the photon is locally still traveling at the same speed but a gravity well subtracts and a gravity warp adds equivalent velocity to that number which will dissipate just like the head or tail wind relative to an aircraft. The less energy you refer to is relative, a calculated number that becomes meaningless when both observer and observed occupy the same frame. IMHO Fran -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 12:21 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 10:16 PM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? No, the energy is not trapped. Light continues to travel at the speed of light. Actually Abd, a photon has a finite amount of energy that is directly proportional to its frequency. Yes. If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space. The energy is stored in the gravitational system. It is potential energy. When a body falls toward the earth, its potential energy is converted to kinetic energy. When the body is shot from the earth, and it is deaccelerated by gravity, its kinetic energy is converted to potential energy. We don't normally think of light this way. However that seems to me to be what happens. If the light were reflected back to the black hole, returning along the same path, it would regain the energy it lost. Potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. We could collect each photon with a detector after it leaved the vicinity of the black hole and we would find that it is less energetic. So no, it does not continue forever at the same energy. That's correct. But it continues forever, unless it is obstructed. And it continues at the same velocity. It does not slow down (in a vacuum, anyway). Then the photon will continue to infinity. I thought that your idea was supposed to be a way to communicate information from within the event horizon to outside, by positing a ship that is outside of our horizon, but sees an event horizon closer, and the second ship is within our horizon -- we can't communicate with it -- but outside of the first ship's horizon. One thing at a time Abd. The main plan is to communicate if possible, but this explains part of the problem and why it happens. Every once in a while it makes sense to look at the overall system. It's like any photon. It travels until it reaches the end of time. I.e., forever, and a day. Its energy remains intact, but because of the red-shift, the energy is spread out more. No. If the photon becomes red shifted, energy is lost from that photon. If the red shift is total down to zero, no energy remains. If the photon is beyond the event horizon, heading outward, it is never red shifted to zero. (I was incorrect about energy, though. Energy is lost in climbing the gravitational well, stored as potential energy from gravity.) What do we have in terms of observation of black holes? Sorry if it sounded like I had observations of them. I was just asking if others might as I do not. I didn't think that. It has to be. However, I don't know that any such object has been observed. All the spectral lines would be shifted. We might conclude that the object is a a great distance, and the only way we'd know
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I do not think that the photon goes at a speed less than light speed for any observer. From a far off observer it just appears to be red shifted from its beginning point. I guess you might say that from our far off point of view, it never had any extra energy in the first place because we never saw any extra. The same is true for everyone as you say so perhaps my idea is not possible. Dave -Original Message- From: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Dec 28, 2012 9:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon I disagree with this! [snip] If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space.[/snip] Equivalent velocity is a function of the environment, ie a gravity well or warp in space time, the velocity of the object is unchanged locally whether we discuss our equivalent acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 or a near luminal equivalent acceleration approaching an event horizon. In both cases the acceleration still dilates space-time in the Pythagorean relationship of V^2/C^2 such that it is almost negligible until you reach large fractions of C. The photon is always traveling at C from it's local perspective - A Lorentzian perspective would say the ether always intersects our 3d plane at the same local rate C and that time dilation and Lorentzian contraction is natures way of dealing with the inconsistency. It would be nice to compare it to an aircraft with a head wind or tail wind with one extraordinary difference.. the rate of the head or tail wind redefines our time quanta proportionally. My whole point here is that gravity doesn't steal energy to red shift a photon.. the photon is locally still traveling at the same speed but a gravity well subtracts and a gravity warp adds equivalent velocity to that number which will dissipate just like the head or tail wind relative to an aircraft. The less energy you refer to is relative, a calculated number that becomes meaningless when both observer and observed occupy the same frame. IMHO Fran -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 12:21 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 10:16 PM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? No, the energy is not trapped. Light continues to travel at the speed of light. Actually Abd, a photon has a finite amount of energy that is directly proportional to its frequency. Yes. If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space. The energy is stored in the gravitational system. It is potential energy. When a body falls toward the earth, its potential energy is converted to kinetic energy. When the body is shot from the earth, and it is deaccelerated by gravity, its kinetic energy is converted to potential energy. We don't normally think of light this way. However that seems to me to be what happens. If the light were reflected back to the black hole, returning along the same path, it would regain the energy it lost. Potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. We could collect each photon with a detector after it leaved the vicinity of the black hole and we would find that it is less energetic. So no, it does not continue forever at the same energy. That's correct. But it continues forever, unless it is obstructed. And it continues at the same velocity. It does not slow down (in a vacuum, anyway). Then the photon will continue to infinity. I thought that your idea was supposed to be a way to communicate information from within the event horizon to outside, by positing a ship that is outside of our horizon, but sees an event horizon closer, and the second ship is within our horizon -- we can't communicate with it -- but outside of the first ship's horizon. One thing at a time Abd. The main plan is to communicate if possible, but this explains part of the problem and why it happens. Every once in a while it makes sense to look at the overall system. It's like any photon. It travels until it reaches the end of time. I.e., forever, and a day. Its energy remains intact, but because of the red-shift, the energy is spread out more. No. If the photon becomes red shifted, energy is lost from that photon. If the red shift is total down to zero, no energy remains. If the photon is beyond
Re: : Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
The end of the particle wave closest to the horizon will be blue shifted, the opposite end is redshifted with all of the energy sucked out of it. Still traveling at the speed of light On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: It is difficult to grasp what you are saying in regard to the hydrogen, but it might sink in with time as my subconscious grinds away on your ideas. I have problems with that little demon guy and suspect that there is a way to sort the hot atoms from the cold ones. I actually consider nature having already built such a device for us in the form of radiation. Why would the emission of IR from a energized molecule not be an example? The effective energy of the gas system is reduced by this emission since it only originates from the energized molecules and not the colder less energetic ones. If the object is to take heat out of a system as the end result then it has been achieved. We can capture the IR at a distant point and convert it into electricity while the source gas has become less energized. The demon has been pushed aside by this process since we found a way around the beast. I do not consider this process a violation of the COE. It might seem problematic from a thermodynamic point of view since it involves taking energy from just one source and not using the difference in energy between two sources to get work. In a way, the other source is empty space which is lower in energy. I have tried to get around the demon in another manner. Why not substitute very large simulated atoms (like pool balls) for the real thing? If the pool balls exhibit inelastic collisions and can be trapped within a cavity of some nature, they should be a stand in for atoms. I am sure we could find some way to separate out the fast moving pool balls by using less energy than required to operate the separation mechanism. This seems like a scaling issue. Dave -Original Message- From: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 1:47 pm Subject: : Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Dave, I think you have it pretty much correct but like you don’t know if it has ever been proven other than as an extension to the small proven dilations accumulated by satellites. I would also agree that distance is modified but this again is due to dilation and would only be from our perspective due to Lorentzian contraction of the spaceship as it approaches the horizon. It should be a straightforward Pythagorean relationship between space and time where one can not deviate without the other V^2/C^2. I posit the hydrogen in a Casimir cavity reflects the same relationship between itself and our macro world here on earth as we perceive between ourselves and the spaceship nearing the horizon. This is what Jan Naudts was saying in his 2005 paper suggesting the Mills hydrino was relativistic hydrogen.. not in the sense Mills used regarding hydrogen being ejected by the suns corona which is still the typical Lorentzian contraction of an object approaching C or the gravitational equivalent of an event horizon but rather the differential of an object experiencing a gravitational hill/deficit relative to the macro world where from it’s perspective as “normal” we in the macro world appear to be the dilated objects slowing down to a near stop. I propose that changes in the “height” of a gravity hill are the basis for catalytic action like we see in skeletal cats and nano powders such that it is the geometry of the conductive metal that establishes the environment in opposition to stiction… the hydrogen, like the spaceship approaching the environment is merely reacting to the already established environment…. This may be the power source behind all the anomalous claims on Ni-H in contradiction to COE because COE falsely assumes that a HUP trap [maxwellian demon is impossible] – it may be impossible to fabricate but if nature can be induced to naturally assemble I believe you can create heat by putting forces like Casimir stiction into opposition with random gas motion…. It just takes a very craftily set stage to avoid self destruction o the props. Regards Fran *From:* ChemE Stewart [mailto:cheme...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:38 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Dave, I believe the mass of the ship is converted to energy (thru radiation) as it approaches which is then converted to entropy and increases the surface of the hole. The information becomes completely scattered by the time it reaches the surface. Until you reach the surface, the black hole is doing work on you we call gravity, which is an entropic force. Stewart Darkmattersalot.com On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 11:04 AM 12/28/2012, David Roberson wrote: I do not think that the photon goes at a speed less than light speed for any observer. From a far off observer it just appears to be red shifted from its beginning point. I guess you might say that from our far off point of view, it never had any extra energy in the first place because we never saw any extra. The same is true for everyone as you say so perhaps my idea is not possible. This is correct. If the photon originates from at or inside the event horizon, under some definitions, it cannot escape to the outside, so red shift is irrelevant. These explanations say that every path from the originating point leads closer to the singularity, no path takes the photon -- even for a moment, away from the singularity. There are no outward bound light paths. The explanation that make an analogy with escape velocity leads to a different picture, and perhaps that is why they are deprecated. From outside the event horizon, the photon will be red-shifted, depending on how far outside. The red shift will increase with distance, but the rate of increase will decrease with distance. A red-shifted photon has originated from outside the event horizon. If oriented directly outbound, it will continue on that path forever, at the speed of light.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I think a lot of the reasoning about photons, above, is wrong. The red shift has nothing to do with gravity, only the relative velocity of the photon source relative to the observer. If an event just outside the event horizon of a black hole emits a photon, an observer at rest relative to the black hole will observe no red shift regardless the strength of the black hole's gravitational field. If the observer then accelerates away from the black hole, similar photons emitted from the same source will appear to be red shifted. It's entirely an observational effect. There is no loss of energy from the photon and no need to store anything anywhere. Jeff On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 10:16 PM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? No, the energy is not trapped. Light continues to travel at the speed of light. Actually Abd, a photon has a finite amount of energy that is directly proportional to its frequency. Yes. If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space. The energy is stored in the gravitational system. It is potential energy. When a body falls toward the earth, its potential energy is converted to kinetic energy. When the body is shot from the earth, and it is deaccelerated by gravity, its kinetic energy is converted to potential energy. We don't normally think of light this way. However that seems to me to be what happens. If the light were reflected back to the black hole, returning along the same path, it would regain the energy it lost. Potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. We could collect each photon with a detector after it leaved the vicinity of the black hole and we would find that it is less energetic. So no, it does not continue forever at the same energy. That's correct. But it continues forever, unless it is obstructed. And it continues at the same velocity. It does not slow down (in a vacuum, anyway). Then the photon will continue to infinity. I thought that your idea was supposed to be a way to communicate information from within the event horizon to outside, by positing a ship that is outside of our horizon, but sees an event horizon closer, and the second ship is within our horizon -- we can't communicate with it -- but outside of the first ship's horizon. One thing at a time Abd. The main plan is to communicate if possible, but this explains part of the problem and why it happens. Every once in a while it makes sense to look at the overall system. It's like any photon. It travels until it reaches the end of time. I.e., forever, and a day. Its energy remains intact, but because of the red-shift, the energy is spread out more. No. If the photon becomes red shifted, energy is lost from that photon. If the red shift is total down to zero, no energy remains. If the photon is beyond the event horizon, heading outward, it is never red shifted to zero. (I was incorrect about energy, though. Energy is lost in climbing the gravitational well, stored as potential energy from gravity.) What do we have in terms of observation of black holes? Sorry if it sounded like I had observations of them. I was just asking if others might as I do not. I didn't think that. It has to be. However, I don't know that any such object has been observed. All the spectral lines would be shifted. We might conclude that the object is a a great distance, and the only way we'd know that it wasn't would be if we could detect graviational effects other than red shift. This is a good question for the astronomers. Perhaps they are seeing these things and are not aware of it. It is hard to imagine that there are not a large number of these out there unless they tend to explode before reaching this size range. It might not be a bad idea for the astronomers to take a second look at what is referred to as failed stars or other unusual thermal objects. I doubt they would miss this. But maybe.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 08:11 PM 12/28/2012, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: I think a lot of the reasoning about photons, above, is wrong. The red shift has nothing to do with gravity, only the relative velocity of the photon source relative to the observer. Eek. Apparently not. If an event just outside the event horizon of a black hole emits a photon, an observer at rest relative to the black hole will observe no red shift regardless the strength of the black hole's gravitational field. Apprently this is not so, and it directly contradicts many sources that might be expected to get it right. The red shift is not a motion-related doppler shift, it is a gravitational shift, purely. If the observer then accelerates away from the black hole, similar photons emitted from the same source will appear to be red shifted. It's entirely an observational effect. There is no loss of energy from the photon and no need to store anything anywhere. This topic is a continual temptation to me to stick my foot in my mouth. What I'm getting is that there is a lot I don't understand about black holes and particularly about the event horizon. Essentially, I've felt that I have a decent understanding of special relativity, but general relativity is another animal, and gravitational effects on light are an aspect of general relativity. The event horizon, it is being said, is the point at which no path exists for the photon to escape, to travel away from the singularity. This is caused by the intensity of the gravitational field, which is a fixed value at the event horizon. That's the value that allows no escape. Just outide the event horizon, the photon may escape, but does not escape unscathed. It loses energy climbing the gravitational potential field. It red-shifts as it loses energy. (That energy is being converted to potential energy, just as with any object with momentum away from a gravity source loses momentum, trading it for potential energy.) The puzzle to me here is the statement made that an object travelling toward the black hole will not only be seen through a red shift, but will also appear to slow, such that it never passes the event horizon, it just gets closer, but more and more slowly, until it is red-shifted out of observability. It is alleged that this takes forever. And I don't understand that. To resolve this, part of what I'll need to look at are the equations for gravitational red shift, or the effect of gravity on light. Then I can look at what would happen with light emitted outside the event horizon (which I presume will fall out of the gravitational equations), and can construct a thought-experiment for an object approaching the event horizon, which was the original problem here. It *looks* to me like some material that is popularly stated about black holes and event horizons might be incorrect, but I certainly don't know enough to claim that with any clarity. I *do* imagine that I know enough to deny that the red shift being talked about here is the ordinary doppler shift, i.e., due to the relative velocity between the source and the reference frame.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Dave,
I believe the mass of the ship is converted to energy (thru radiation) as
it approaches which is then converted to entropy and increases the surface
of the hole. The information becomes completely scattered by the time it
reaches the surface. Until you reach the surface, the black hole is doing
work on you we call gravity, which is an entropic force.
Stewart
Darkmattersalot.com
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the implications
of this system. I think you are correct in the assumption that the mass of
the ship does not reach infinity at the horizon. If we assume that no
energy is created out of thin air then the mass of the ship must increase
significantly as it reaches the boundary. This must be true since the
velocity of the ship becomes zero at that point and all of the
gravitational energy due to the initial location of the ship at the
beginning point of its journey must be converted into mass. This could be
calculated, and it definitely is not infinity but is substantially greater
than when at rest in our vicinity.
Again, you need to think about each observer and what they perceive. We
need to have our laws of physics to be in effect during our observations
and the other guys need the same. So far, the only way that this seems
likely is for time dilation to work overtime. I suspect that the red shift
is a stand in for time dilation on board the ship, but I do not recall
seeing that proven. If it is true, then we have an easy technique to
employ.
I now tend to think that the space guy can impact with the black hole,
but that it will take forever for this to happen from our perspective. If
he had a jar full of muons, they would never decay as far as we could tell
while he is near that boundary. Too bad for him, but the muons would not
be able to save him from extinction in a very short time period. Then
again, he might live for essentially ever from our point of view which is
an extension to his normal life span in our environment. My father used to
tell us kids that time passes faster and faster as you get older. Now I
understand what he meant.
The curvature of space might somehow enter into this discussion but I am
not sure how to think of its effect. I am confident that time dilation is
a factor, but perhaps the distances are modified as well. That is an area
to consider.
You know what I think of sources that say that things are meaningless
don't you? That translates into I do not know and please do not ask me
again.
It is late and my mind is becoming mush.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'a...@lomaxdesign.com');
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'vortex-l@eskimo.com');; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.comjavascript:_e({},
'cvml', 'vortex-l@eskimo.com');
Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:09 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 10:23 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote:
We both agree that nothing will happen to the ship itself unless
tidal forces tear it apart. That has not been an issue and I am not
sure of why you start with the assumption that I think it will. You
must have misunderstood my statement. I suppose I could have made
it in a clearer manner.
I never objected to the thought experiment, nor thought that this
would be an issue. We can imagine a teeny-tiny spaceship that is
super strong. and we can imagine a really big black hole, so that the
curvature doesn't bite us.
The ship itself will never think it reaches the ultimate boundary
but we will see radiation emitted by it become red shifted until no
more detectable energy comes our way from it.
I'm no longer confident of any of the explanations. The holonauts
never see the singularity, but if they are travelling toward it, in
their own time, they see an event horizon ahead of them, becoming
smaller more and more intense, I'd think. However, lots of sources
say that events beyond the event horizon are meaningless.
Part of what is frying my brain here is the gravitational field at
the event horizon. The event horizon is defined as the boundary where
gravity is so intense that light cannot take a path that increases
its distance from the center of gravity. That's geometrical. If the
holonauts pass the originally observed event horizon, and see a
receded event horizon in front of them, how would the light paths
have shifted? It doesn't seem that time dilation would do this.
The sense I keep coming up with is that the event horizon is the
place beyond which light cannot escape to the *external universe*,
which means infinite distance, I found one article that refers to
this. Not that it cannot escape to some greater distance.
But that contradicts the gravity so intense statements, and the
light path statements.
I need to examine
: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Dave, I think you have it pretty much correct but like you don't know if it has ever been proven other than as an extension to the small proven dilations accumulated by satellites. I would also agree that distance is modified but this again is due to dilation and would only be from our perspective due to Lorentzian contraction of the spaceship as it approaches the horizon. It should be a straightforward Pythagorean relationship between space and time where one can not deviate without the other V^2/C^2. I posit the hydrogen in a Casimir cavity reflects the same relationship between itself and our macro world here on earth as we perceive between ourselves and the spaceship nearing the horizon. This is what Jan Naudts was saying in his 2005 paper suggesting the Mills hydrino was relativistic hydrogen.. not in the sense Mills used regarding hydrogen being ejected by the suns corona which is still the typical Lorentzian contraction of an object approaching C or the gravitational equivalent of an event horizon but rather the differential of an object experiencing a gravitational hill/deficit relative to the macro world where from it's perspective as normal we in the macro world appear to be the dilated objects slowing down to a near stop. I propose that changes in the height of a gravity hill are the basis for catalytic action like we see in skeletal cats and nano powders such that it is the geometry of the conductive metal that establishes the environment in opposition to stiction... the hydrogen, like the spaceship approaching the environment is merely reacting to the already established environment This may be the power source behind all the anomalous claims on Ni-H in contradiction to COE because COE falsely assumes that a HUP trap [maxwellian demon is impossible] - it may be impossible to fabricate but if nature can be induced to naturally assemble I believe you can create heat by putting forces like Casimir stiction into opposition with random gas motion It just takes a very craftily set stage to avoid self destruction o the props. Regards Fran From: ChemE Stewart [mailto:cheme...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:38 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Dave, I believe the mass of the ship is converted to energy (thru radiation) as it approaches which is then converted to entropy and increases the surface of the hole. The information becomes completely scattered by the time it reaches the surface. Until you reach the surface, the black hole is doing work on you we call gravity, which is an entropic force. Stewart Darkmattersalot.com On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the implications of this system. I think you are correct in the assumption that the mass of the ship does not reach infinity at the horizon. If we assume that no energy is created out of thin air then the mass of the ship must increase significantly as it reaches the boundary. This must be true since the velocity of the ship becomes zero at that point and all of the gravitational energy due to the initial location of the ship at the beginning point of its journey must be converted into mass. This could be calculated, and it definitely is not infinity but is substantially greater than when at rest in our vicinity. Again, you need to think about each observer and what they perceive. We need to have our laws of physics to be in effect during our observations and the other guys need the same. So far, the only way that this seems likely is for time dilation to work overtime. I suspect that the red shift is a stand in for time dilation on board the ship, but I do not recall seeing that proven. If it is true, then we have an easy technique to employ. I now tend to think that the space guy can impact with the black hole, but that it will take forever for this to happen from our perspective. If he had a jar full of muons, they would never decay as far as we could tell while he is near that boundary. Too bad for him, but the muons would not be able to save him from extinction in a very short time period. Then again, he might live for essentially ever from our point of view which is an extension to his normal life span in our environment. My father used to tell us kids that time passes faster and faster as you get older. Now I understand what he meant. The curvature of space might somehow enter into this discussion but I am not sure how to think of its effect. I am confident that time dilation is a factor, but perhaps the distances are modified as well. That is an area to consider. You know what I think of sources that say that things are meaningless don't you? That translates into I do not know and please do not ask me again. It is late and my mind is becoming mush. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
You might be correct since it is difficult to perform an experiment of this type. I would not expect radiation to be emitted by the ship since it has zero net charge. This would not be the case if a plasma enters the black hole. I suspect that the intense radiation that we detect currently is due to the charged things being accelerated on the way in. Direct heat radiation (with a red shift) would be expected due to collisions within the extremely hot plasma. I have been trying to understand what a far away observer detects instead of what the poor guy inside the doomed ship sees. What would you expect us to view as the spaceship heads inward? We know that gravitation causes time dilation so does the spaceman come to a complete stop in motion as I suspect at the boundary? I can imagine him looking extremely flat and motionless at the boundary until the remnants of his existence red shifts into oblivion. The main problem is that it takes time for the photons to finally reach 0 Hertz, actually an infinite amount of it. I look at this as similar to an exponential decay. The signal never actually reaches zero, but becomes close in a hurry. The mass of the ship could be determined by the gravitational energy difference between the two points that we observe. In my concept the ship is motionless at the boundary so all of the gravitational energy is converted to effective mass. This is from our long way off perspective and others will see different things. These are interesting questions that we are considering and I am confident that many have seeked the answers before us. It is a good exercise in reasoning. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:43 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Dave, I believe the mass of the ship is converted to energy (thru radiation) as it approaches which is then converted to entropy and increases the surface of the hole. The information becomes completely scattered by the time it reaches the surface. Until you reach the surface, the black hole is doing work on you we call gravity, which is an entropic force. Stewart Darkmattersalot.com On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the implications of this system. I think you are correct in the assumption that the mass of the ship does not reach infinity at the horizon. If we assume that no energy is created out of thin air then the mass of the ship must increase significantly as it reaches the boundary. This must be true since the velocity of the ship becomes zero at that point and all of the gravitational energy due to the initial location of the ship at the beginning point of its journey must be converted into mass. This could be calculated, and it definitely is not infinity but is substantially greater than when at rest in our vicinity. Again, you need to think about each observer and what they perceive. We need to have our laws of physics to be in effect during our observations and the other guys need the same. So far, the only way that this seems likely is for time dilation to work overtime. I suspect that the red shift is a stand in for time dilation on board the ship, but I do not recall seeing that proven. If it is true, then we have an easy technique to employ. I now tend to think that the space guy can impact with the black hole, but that it will take forever for this to happen from our perspective. If he had a jar full of muons, they would never decay as far as we could tell while he is near that boundary. Too bad for him, but the muons would not be able to save him from extinction in a very short time period. Then again, he might live for essentially ever from our point of view which is an extension to his normal life span in our environment. My father used to tell us kids that time passes faster and faster as you get older. Now I understand what he meant. The curvature of space might somehow enter into this discussion but I am not sure how to think of its effect. I am confident that time dilation is a factor, but perhaps the distances are modified as well. That is an area to consider. You know what I think of sources that say that things are meaningless don't you? That translates into I do not know and please do not ask me again. It is late and my mind is becoming mush. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:09 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 10:23 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: We both agree that nothing will happen to the ship itself unless tidal forces tear it apart. That has not been an issue and I am not sure of why you start with the assumption that I think
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I think beta decay/evaporation at the surface of the hole will emit
ionizing radiation which will punch atomic holes in the ship as it
approaches, sinking it to davey jones' cosmic locker...
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
You might be correct since it is difficult to perform an experiment of
this type. I would not expect radiation to be emitted by the ship since it
has zero net charge. This would not be the case if a plasma enters the
black hole. I suspect that the intense radiation that we detect currently
is due to the charged things being accelerated on the way in. Direct heat
radiation (with a red shift) would be expected due to collisions within the
extremely hot plasma.
I have been trying to understand what a far away observer detects
instead of what the poor guy inside the doomed ship sees. What would you
expect us to view as the spaceship heads inward? We know that gravitation
causes time dilation so does the spaceman come to a complete stop in motion
as I suspect at the boundary? I can imagine him looking extremely flat and
motionless at the boundary until the remnants of his existence red shifts
into oblivion. The main problem is that it takes time for the photons to
finally reach 0 Hertz, actually an infinite amount of it. I look at this
as similar to an exponential decay. The signal never actually reaches zero,
but becomes close in a hurry.
The mass of the ship could be determined by the gravitational energy
difference between the two points that we observe. In my concept the ship
is motionless at the boundary so all of the gravitational energy is
converted to effective mass. This is from our long way off perspective and
others will see different things.
These are interesting questions that we are considering and I am
confident that many have seeked the answers before us. It is a good
exercise in reasoning.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'cheme...@gmail.com');
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:43 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Dave,
I believe the mass of the ship is converted to energy (thru radiation)
as it approaches which is then converted to entropy and increases the
surface of the hole. The information becomes completely scattered by
the time it reaches the surface. Until you reach the surface, the black
hole is doing work on you we call gravity, which is an entropic force.
Stewart
Darkmattersalot.com
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the implications
of this system. I think you are correct in the assumption that the mass of
the ship does not reach infinity at the horizon. If we assume that no
energy is created out of thin air then the mass of the ship must increase
significantly as it reaches the boundary. This must be true since the
velocity of the ship becomes zero at that point and all of the
gravitational energy due to the initial location of the ship at the
beginning point of its journey must be converted into mass. This could be
calculated, and it definitely is not infinity but is substantially greater
than when at rest in our vicinity.
Again, you need to think about each observer and what they perceive. We
need to have our laws of physics to be in effect during our observations
and the other guys need the same. So far, the only way that this seems
likely is for time dilation to work overtime. I suspect that the red shift
is a stand in for time dilation on board the ship, but I do not recall
seeing that proven. If it is true, then we have an easy technique to
employ.
I now tend to think that the space guy can impact with the black hole,
but that it will take forever for this to happen from our perspective. If
he had a jar full of muons, they would never decay as far as we could tell
while he is near that boundary. Too bad for him, but the muons would not
be able to save him from extinction in a very short time period. Then
again, he might live for essentially ever from our point of view which is
an extension to his normal life span in our environment. My father used to
tell us kids that time passes faster and faster as you get older. Now I
understand what he meant.
The curvature of space might somehow enter into this discussion but I am
not sure how to think of its effect. I am confident that time dilation is
a factor, but perhaps the distances are modified as well. That is an area
to consider.
You know what I think of sources that say that things are meaningless
don't you? That translates into I do not know and please do not ask me
again.
It is late and my mind is becoming mush.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent
Re: : Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
It is difficult to grasp what you are saying in regard to the hydrogen, but it might sink in with time as my subconscious grinds away on your ideas. I have problems with that little demon guy and suspect that there is a way to sort the hot atoms from the cold ones. I actually consider nature having already built such a device for us in the form of radiation. Why would the emission of IR from a energized molecule not be an example? The effective energy of the gas system is reduced by this emission since it only originates from the energized molecules and not the colder less energetic ones. If the object is to take heat out of a system as the end result then it has been achieved. We can capture the IR at a distant point and convert it into electricity while the source gas has become less energized. The demon has been pushed aside by this process since we found a way around the beast. I do not consider this process a violation of the COE. It might seem problematic from a thermodynamic point of view since it involves taking energy from just one source and not using the difference in energy between two sources to get work. In a way, the other source is empty space which is lower in energy. I have tried to get around the demon in another manner. Why not substitute very large simulated atoms (like pool balls) for the real thing? If the pool balls exhibit inelastic collisions and can be trapped within a cavity of some nature, they should be a stand in for atoms. I am sure we could find some way to separate out the fast moving pool balls by using less energy than required to operate the separation mechanism. This seems like a scaling issue. Dave -Original Message- From: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 1:47 pm Subject: : Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Dave, I think you have it pretty much correct but like you don’t know if it has ever been proven other than as an extension to the small proven dilations accumulated by satellites. I would also agree that distance is modified but this again is due to dilation and would only be from our perspective due to Lorentzian contraction of the spaceship as it approaches the horizon. It should be a straightforward Pythagorean relationship between space and time where one can not deviate without the other V^2/C^2. I posit the hydrogen in a Casimir cavity reflects the same relationship between itself and our macro world here on earth as we perceive between ourselves and the spaceship nearing the horizon. This is what Jan Naudts was saying in his 2005 paper suggesting the Mills hydrino was relativistic hydrogen.. not in the sense Mills used regarding hydrogen being ejected by the suns corona which is still the typical Lorentzian contraction of an object approaching C or the gravitational equivalent of an event horizon but rather the differential of an object experiencing a gravitational hill/deficit relative to the macro world where from it’s perspective as “normal” we in the macro world appear to be the dilated objects slowing down to a near stop. I propose that changes in the “height” of a gravity hill are the basis for catalytic action like we see in skeletal cats and nano powders such that it is the geometry of the conductive metal that establishes the environment in opposition to stiction… the hydrogen, like the spaceship approaching the environment is merely reacting to the already established environment…. This may be the power source behind all the anomalous claims on Ni-H in contradiction to COE because COE falsely assumes that a HUP trap [maxwellian demon is impossible] – it may be impossible to fabricate but if nature can be induced to naturally assemble I believe you can create heat by putting forces like Casimir stiction into opposition with random gas motion…. It just takes a very craftily set stage to avoid self destruction o the props. Regards Fran From: ChemE Stewart [mailto:cheme...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:38 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Dave, I believe the mass of the ship is converted to energy (thru radiation) as it approaches which is then converted to entropy and increases the surface of the hole. The information becomes completely scattered by the time it reaches the surface. Until you reach the surface, the black hole is doing work on you we call gravity, which is an entropic force. Stewart Darkmattersalot.com On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the implications of this system. I think you are correct in the assumption that the mass of the ship does not reach infinity at the horizon. If we assume that no energy is created out of thin air then the mass of the ship must increase significantly as it reaches
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 12:58 AM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: TIf a photon left the surface of the black hole and headed outward in a vector along the radius what would happen to it? Could the energy rapidly be drained as it headed outward until there is nothing left? What would happen to the energy once things settled down? I assume that it would still be in existence within some region. What are your thoughts? I just want to make the issue clear here. From what is being said in various places, the event horizon is a place where gravity is so intense that no light path can increase the distance to the singularity center of mass. The photon does not head out at all. Period. Some of the sources note that the escape velocity description is inaccurate, and it's clear that if we were dealing with escape velocity, that's a concept that allows a mass to increase in height, it merely falls back eventually after the initial velocity, kinetic energy, is converted to potential energy. Most sources note that the escape velocity explanation is inferior, and they point to the light path explanation. I'm finding it very obvious that I don't understand relativistic gravity, and I'm not finding it easy to discover a clear explanation.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 01:29 AM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: You are asking very good questions. I have given this a little thought over the years and there are certain things that seem likely to happen. It has been proven that a gravity field causes time to dilate. A very large field will cause it to dilate a lot. A black hole has an extremely large gravitational field around it due to the enormous mass. We need to get, I suggest, unless someone comes along and rescues us, much more specific. I'm afraid that we might actually have to ... horrors! I hoped it would not come to this! ... do some math. It's not enough to say that a gravity well causes time to dilate. *How much*? This might explain why time for one on board a spaceship approaching the event horizon slows down from an observer outside of the field and eventually comes to a complete stop. I'm not accepting the description without knowing where it came from. And without knowing what, exactly, it means. You are getting clearer; here you do specify the observer, but not how the observer makes the observation, and that might be critical. Your sentence is a bit contradictory, you speak first of time for one on board, but then refer to from an observer. I think I know what you mean, but becoming obsessively careful about each detail of statements is how students approach topics like this, if they are to hope to actually understand them. We have trouble with understanding black holes because they are outside our experience, and we have accepted ideas about them, and our ideas about ideas, as being true. We really need to back up and cleave, as closely as possible, to what we know. That would, first, take us back to classical mechanics, but we can be explicit about that. This is strange indeed. Time actually coming to a standstill is difficult to put ones arms around. Time doesn't actually come to a standstill, except for light itself. I.e, from our point of view, photons don't age. Einstein is said to have derived much of his theory from thinking about what the universe (of matter) looks like to a photon... As I read this, *it all happens at once.* But is that right? The implication is that the guy on board that ship does not age at all as far as we are concerned. A million years could go by for us and he would not seem to change. This is a way to travel into our future provided you are not annihilated by the black hole. If you escape the hole, then you get a look at working ECATS! LOL! I sure hope that they are available for sell before a million years goes by. I have no problem understanding, it seems, time dilation from velocity. There is a simple derivation of it from considering an photon oscillator clock. It falls out from the constancy of the speed of light (and all interactions are governed by photons or electromagnetic phenomena that travel at the speed of light). But gravity is general relativity, and I just don't get it. As I was speculating before, I think that the amount of red shift that occurs is directly in proportion to the amount of time dilation for the fellow. Maybe. Math. I'm not sure how to define the amount of red shift. The wavelength goes to infinity Remember his heart beats at a rate that is a fraction of the cycles of the time measuring laser and it seems logical that we observe both changing by the same percentage. Don't even think about biology. All physical phenomena are mediated by light speed. Now, that apparently appplies to gravity as well The implication is that every method of time keeping is similarly effected by the gravity field present near the black hole boundary. We need to explore this concept and determine whether or not it makes sense. There is no problem with every method of time keeping. We can assume a clock. We actually don't need to specify some particular clock, but it can make the understanding simple if we do, and that's how the equations are developed. I understand that we should expect that the space guy is accelerating toward the black hole and from his perspective it must be true since he is within a gravitational field. He does not experience the gravitational field, per se, setting aside tidal forces. If his spaceship is closed, he can't tell the difference between approaching a black hole, and floating in space. *We*, outside the ship, see him accelerating, or do we? That is one of the questions here, becuase it's being said that, instead, we see him slow down, and the information coming to use from him, i.e, photons, increasingly red shift and disappear. It's said that the disappearance takes a very long time. Does it? I'm not trusting any of the popular explanations. That does not mean that they are wrong. What it means to me is that I don't understand them. The only way out of this dilemma is if he indeed does continue forward until he becomes dissociated into atoms or whatever near
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 01:47 AM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: I am thinking along the line of the second concept that you list at the end. The photon would cease to exist at any energy if allowed to continue by itself from the spaceship that is infinitesimally close to the boundary. So, instead, the second ship intercepts it ... This is a concept that has the photon rising from the event horizon, but being slowed until ceases to exist. But that would violate conservation of energy, for starters. Rather, the way the event horizon is described is that no path for light from inside the horizon crosses it. This *appears* to conflict with views of the event horizon as being located differently with different observers. I really think we need to back up, practically all the way. Why do we think there would be black holes?
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 02:09 AM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: Abd, it is all in the perception of the various observers. Each one does not detect anything special about their own situation. We, as the far off guys, see the fellow on the ship being affected by the gravitational field he is within. That field is so intense that we see it slow his time measurements down to zero eventually. Maybe. You say so. Why? At the event horizon, the field is not infinitely strong. He does not see this happening from his point of view. He sees that big black zero ahead of him and kisses his butt goodbye. It takes very little time as far as he is concerned until he becomes bacon. For us, an eternity passes before he dies. I don't know what he sees. Now, I find it interesting what we should observe during this process. I agree with you that initially the ship leaving our vicinity must appear to accelerate toward the black hole. I am confident that we could bounce radar pulses off of the ship and measure its velocity and distance from us and that these measurements would show what is expected for a while. Okay. What would they show? The acceleration of the ship would increase as the ship got further away from us until time dilation caught up with the device. Time dilation is inferred, it is not observed by us unless we can observe a clock. But I don't know, here, how to distinguish doppler shift in the signal coming to us from the gravitational shift, from time dilation. There must exist a distance from us at which the ship begins to slow down from our perspective. That is not a consequence of time dilation. And the speed of light remains the same. If we send radar pulses to the ship, the time of flight would correctly show the distance. However, there would be a point where the radar pulses don't return. The concept that the ship slows down would imply that this point is never reached. However, it appears, matter *is* falling into the black hole. It is disappearing. A writer here imagined that incoming matter was smeared all over the face of the black hole, which is a different perspective, i.e, that it never falls in, to an outside observer. I think this whole thing is a mess I'm fully aware that the mess is in my thinking, but I rather doubt it's just me. I have not read any definitive discussion of black holes from anyone who actually understands the concept, in all its detail. I haven't read Hawking. Maybe I should, but not now. This must be where the time dilation due to the gravity field exceeds the apparent acceleration due to the pull of the field. As the time dilation wins the battle, the ship appears to decelerate until it eventually comes to a stop. We don't see time dilation, so this is incorrect, I think. That is, we can see that time *on* the ship is slowed, if we can observe a ship clock, but we want to measure the ship's velocity in *our* frame, not the ship frame. I suspect that you can obtain an idea of how a signal behaves when transmitted from us to the spaceman by thinking of behavior that is reversed from the other direction. All of the frequencies we transmit will be blue shifted by the same proportion. Have you practiced your Donald Duck speak lately? Perhaps a bottle of helium might help! Yes, I've looked at this from the other direction, that is a useful analytical approach. If we are using radar, our radar pulses will hit the ship having been blue-shifted by gravity. But the ship is gaining velocity as it approaches the black hole, so that's an effect in the other direction. When the come back to us they are again red-shifted. Were the ship stationary in our frame (as is being proposed, roughly), and outside the horizon, the blue shift and red shift would cancel out. What would time-of-flight show? I think we really need to understand what the gravity is at the event horizon. If it's true that no path of light can escape, *from what perspective is this true.* Is there some absolute locaion for the event horizon in our frame (center of mass frame for the black hole, but with external anchors or reference points). The black hole is stationary in our frame.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 02:38 AM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the implications of this system. I think you are correct in the assumption that the mass of the ship does not reach infinity at the horizon. If we assume that no energy is created out of thin air then the mass of the ship must increase significantly as it reaches the boundary. This must be true since the velocity of the ship becomes zero at that point See, you are assuming that's true. Why? Because someone said so? I am *not* saying that it's false. I don't know that. But I know that we cannot reason from what we do not grasp. and all of the gravitational energy due to the initial location of the ship at the beginning point of its journey must be converted into mass. This could be calculated, and it definitely is not infinity but is substantially greater than when at rest in our vicinity. Again, you need to think about each observer and what they perceive. We need to have our laws of physics to be in effect during our observations and the other guys need the same. So far, the only way that this seems likely is for time dilation to work overtime. I suspect that the red shift is a stand in for time dilation on board the ship, but I do not recall seeing that proven. If it is true, then we have an easy technique to employ. I doubt it. But time dilation on the ship and red shift can be related. I now tend to think that the space guy can impact with the black hole, but that it will take forever for this to happen from our perspective. If he had a jar full of muons, they would never decay as far as we could tell while he is near that boundary. Too bad for him, but the muons would not be able to save him from extinction in a very short time period. Then again, he might live for essentially ever from our point of view which is an extension to his normal life span in our environment. My father used to tell us kids that time passes faster and faster as you get older. Now I understand what he meant. The curvature of space might somehow enter into this discussion but I am not sure how to think of its effect. I am confident that time dilation is a factor, but perhaps the distances are modified as well. That is an area to consider. You know what I think of sources that say that things are meaningless don't you? That translates into I do not know and please do not ask me again. Things are meaningless. We create meaning. I don't know bleep, but you may ask me again. It is late and my mind is becoming mush. That happens, I know all too well. However, I had a standing joke with a friend, it would come up when he said something like this. My friend, your mind is not becoming mush, it's already mush and has always been mush. Things actually get much easier with the realization that we are self-important mush.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Notice that I carefully specified that the photon left from a point that is extremely close to but outside of the horizon. There is no problem with this location as far as the radial outward path of a photon. If I had said what you suggest the it started within the horizon, then there is an issue. So, the photon as before continues outward from this side of the horizon toward the far away observers. I asked the question about where the energy ends up because I suspect that it becomes distributed throughout space in some manner. One might draw a conclusion that space is stretched out from the horizon due to some form of linear dimension dilation so that the COE is preserved. This is not completely evident and I do not know if it is assumed in any theory except possibly for the curvature of space associated with general relativity. It becomes increasingly complicated if we must deal with dilation of both space and time. My photon thought experiment tends to support that supposition. If one follows the logic in reverse the spaceman sees that any thermal noise or other radiation incident upon the hole from the outside would become very intense within this region near the boundary. You would not want to visit this area for a vacation. Your question about the existence of black holes is a good one. There have been measurements of the effect of one at the center of our galaxy on nearby stars which is quite convincing. Some of the enormous beams of energy being emitted by other galaxies in opposite directions from their axis seem to have not other conceivable mechanisms so far. I have wondered about how matter is added to a black hole once it reaches a point where time dilation becomes so great that we observe it freezing on the way in. Like our test probe ship, this incoming matter should be frozen in some manner until the radiation from it red shifts all the way to zero. Of course that is what we observe at a distance which is the key. Lets start with something simple. A large star that is not quite massive enough to become an assumed black hole behaves in ways that we are familiar. My statement begs an interesting question. How does a star appear to a far away observer if it has a mass that is just below that required for it to become a black hole? I would guess that the outer edge of such a beast would exhibit enormous gravitational flux and the associated time dilation. It really makes me wonder what happens to normal radiation that is emitted from the surface. Should we assume that it becomes red shifted as it travels our direction to a very large extent. That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? Does anyone on vortex know of the observations of any stars that fall into this category? Perhaps they appear like red giants at our location-interesting question. The obvious solution is that they explode before this occurs. Is that their fate? Speculation can be fun to engage in, but I am not sure that it is productive to keep alive a thread for this long unless other members of the vortex become interested. It does not seem fair to them for us to borrow most of the bandwidth for so long so I plan to return to the main topic very soon. I have enjoyed our thought processes and it is relaxing after I finally competed a good model for the MFMP cell behavior. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 6:45 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 01:47 AM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: I am thinking along the line of the second concept that you list at the end. The photon would cease to exist at any energy if allowed to continue by itself from the spaceship that is infinitesimally close to the boundary. So, instead, the second ship intercepts it ... This is a concept that has the photon rising from the event horizon, but being slowed until ceases to exist. But that would violate conservation of energy, for starters. Rather, the way the event horizon is described is that no path for light from inside the horizon crosses it. This *appears* to conflict with views of the event horizon as being located differently with different observers. I really think we need to back up, practically all the way. Why do we think there would be black holes?
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Guys,
Not all black holes are cold, the small ones are extremely hot. Unless
you only believe in large ones...
A black hole weighing 1.2x10e12 kg is about a million K with a radius of
1.8x10e-10 meters. If the sun spit that at earth it might orbit around a
few months and collapse atmospheric gasses around it and create a
hurricane...
http://xaonon.dyndns.org/hawking/
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
Notice that I carefully specified that the photon left from a point that
is extremely close to but outside of the horizon. There is no problem with
this location as far as the radial outward path of a photon. If I had said
what you suggest the it started within the horizon, then there is an issue.
So, the photon as before continues outward from this side of the horizon
toward the far away observers. I asked the question about where the energy
ends up because I suspect that it becomes distributed throughout space in
some manner. One might draw a conclusion that space is stretched out from
the horizon due to some form of linear dimension dilation so that the COE
is preserved. This is not completely evident and I do not know if it is
assumed in any theory except possibly for the curvature of space associated
with general relativity.
It becomes increasingly complicated if we must deal with dilation of
both space and time. My photon thought experiment tends to support that
supposition. If one follows the logic in reverse the spaceman sees that
any thermal noise or other radiation incident upon the hole from the
outside would become very intense within this region near the boundary.
You would not want to visit this area for a vacation.
Your question about the existence of black holes is a good one. There
have been measurements of the effect of one at the center of our galaxy on
nearby stars which is quite convincing. Some of the enormous beams of
energy being emitted by other galaxies in opposite directions from their
axis seem to have not other conceivable mechanisms so far.
I have wondered about how matter is added to a black hole once it
reaches a point where time dilation becomes so great that we observe it
freezing on the way in. Like our test probe ship, this incoming matter
should be frozen in some manner until the radiation from it red shifts all
the way to zero. Of course that is what we observe at a distance which is
the key.
Lets start with something simple. A large star that is not quite
massive enough to become an assumed black hole behaves in ways that we are
familiar. My statement begs an interesting question. How does a star
appear to a far away observer if it has a mass that is just below that
required for it to become a black hole? I would guess that the outer edge
of such a beast would exhibit enormous gravitational flux and the
associated time dilation. It really makes me wonder what happens to normal
radiation that is emitted from the surface. Should we assume that it
becomes red shifted as it travels our direction to a very large extent.
That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space
surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space
itself has expanded to accommodate it? Does anyone on vortex know of the
observations of any stars that fall into this category? Perhaps they
appear like red giants at our location-interesting question. The obvious
solution is that they explode before this occurs. Is that their fate?
Speculation can be fun to engage in, but I am not sure that it is
productive to keep alive a thread for this long unless other members of the
vortex become interested. It does not seem fair to them for us to borrow
most of the bandwidth for so long so I plan to return to the main topic
very soon. I have enjoyed our thought processes and it is relaxing after I
finally competed a good model for the MFMP cell behavior.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'a...@lomaxdesign.com');
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'vortex-l@eskimo.com');; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.comjavascript:_e({},
'cvml', 'vortex-l@eskimo.com');
Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 6:45 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 01:47 AM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote:
I am thinking along the line of the second concept that you list at
the end. The photon would cease to exist at any energy if allowed
to continue by itself from the spaceship that is infinitesimally
close to the boundary. So, instead, the second ship intercepts it ...
This is a concept that has the photon rising from the event horizon,
but being slowed until ceases to exist. But that would violate
conservation of energy, for starters. Rather, the way the event
horizon is described is that no path for light from inside the
horizon crosses it.
This *appears* to conflict
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
For this particular thread we were concentrating upon very large black holes. You can have the tiny ones. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 8:34 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Guys, Not all black holes are cold, the small ones are extremely hot. Unless you only believe in large ones... A black hole weighing 1.2x10e12 kg is about a million K with a radius of 1.8x10e-10 meters. If the sun spit that at earth it might orbit around a few months and collapse atmospheric gasses around it and create a hurricane... http://xaonon.dyndns.org/hawking/ On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: Notice that I carefully specified that the photon left from a point that is extremely close to but outside of the horizon. There is no problem with this location as far as the radial outward path of a photon. If I had said what you suggest the it started within the horizon, then there is an issue. So, the photon as before continues outward from this side of the horizon toward the far away observers. I asked the question about where the energy ends up because I suspect that it becomes distributed throughout space in some manner. One might draw a conclusion that space is stretched out from the horizon due to some form of linear dimension dilation so that the COE is preserved. This is not completely evident and I do not know if it is assumed in any theory except possibly for the curvature of space associated with general relativity. It becomes increasingly complicated if we must deal with dilation of both space and time. My photon thought experiment tends to support that supposition. If one follows the logic in reverse the spaceman sees that any thermal noise or other radiation incident upon the hole from the outside would become very intense within this region near the boundary. You would not want to visit this area for a vacation. Your question about the existence of black holes is a good one. There have been measurements of the effect of one at the center of our galaxy on nearby stars which is quite convincing. Some of the enormous beams of energy being emitted by other galaxies in opposite directions from their axis seem to have not other conceivable mechanisms so far. I have wondered about how matter is added to a black hole once it reaches a point where time dilation becomes so great that we observe it freezing on the way in. Like our test probe ship, this incoming matter should be frozen in some manner until the radiation from it red shifts all the way to zero. Of course that is what we observe at a distance which is the key. Lets start with something simple. A large star that is not quite massive enough to become an assumed black hole behaves in ways that we are familiar. My statement begs an interesting question. How does a star appear to a far away observer if it has a mass that is just below that required for it to become a black hole? I would guess that the outer edge of such a beast would exhibit enormous gravitational flux and the associated time dilation. It really makes me wonder what happens to normal radiation that is emitted from the surface. Should we assume that it becomes red shifted as it travels our direction to a very large extent. That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? Does anyone on vortex know of the observations of any stars that fall into this category? Perhaps they appear like red giants at our location-interesting question. The obvious solution is that they explode before this occurs. Is that their fate? Speculation can be fun to engage in, but I am not sure that it is productive to keep alive a thread for this long unless other members of the vortex become interested. It does not seem fair to them for us to borrow most of the bandwidth for so long so I plan to return to the main topic very soon. I have enjoyed our thought processes and it is relaxing after I finally competed a good model for the MFMP cell behavior. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 6:45 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 01:47 AM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: I am thinking along the line of the second concept that you list at the end. The photon would cease to exist at any energy if allowed to continue by itself from the spaceship that is infinitesimally close to the boundary. So, instead, the second ship intercepts it ... This is a concept that has the photon rising from the event horizon, but being slowed until ceases to exist. But that would violate conservation of energy, for starters
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Thanks, we've got em
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
For this particular thread we were concentrating upon very large black
holes. You can have the tiny ones.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'cheme...@gmail.com');
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Guys,
Not all black holes are cold, the small ones are extremely hot.
Unless you only believe in large ones...
A black hole weighing 1.2x10e12 kg is about a million K with a radius of
1.8x10e-10 meters. If the sun spit that at earth it might orbit around a
few months and collapse atmospheric gasses around it and create a
hurricane...
http://xaonon.dyndns.org/hawking/
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
Notice that I carefully specified that the photon left from a point that
is extremely close to but outside of the horizon. There is no problem with
this location as far as the radial outward path of a photon. If I had said
what you suggest the it started within the horizon, then there is an issue.
So, the photon as before continues outward from this side of the horizon
toward the far away observers. I asked the question about where the energy
ends up because I suspect that it becomes distributed throughout space in
some manner. One might draw a conclusion that space is stretched out from
the horizon due to some form of linear dimension dilation so that the COE
is preserved. This is not completely evident and I do not know if it is
assumed in any theory except possibly for the curvature of space associated
with general relativity.
It becomes increasingly complicated if we must deal with dilation of
both space and time. My photon thought experiment tends to support that
supposition. If one follows the logic in reverse the spaceman sees that
any thermal noise or other radiation incident upon the hole from the
outside would become very intense within this region near the boundary.
You would not want to visit this area for a vacation.
Your question about the existence of black holes is a good one. There
have been measurements of the effect of one at the center of our galaxy on
nearby stars which is quite convincing. Some of the enormous beams of
energy being emitted by other galaxies in opposite directions from their
axis seem to have not other conceivable mechanisms so far.
I have wondered about how matter is added to a black hole once it
reaches a point where time dilation becomes so great that we observe it
freezing on the way in. Like our test probe ship, this incoming matter
should be frozen in some manner until the radiation from it red shifts all
the way to zero. Of course that is what we observe at a distance which is
the key.
Lets start with something simple. A large star that is not quite
massive enough to become an assumed black hole behaves in ways that we are
familiar. My statement begs an interesting question. How does a star
appear to a far away observer if it has a mass that is just below that
required for it to become a black hole? I would guess that the outer edge
of such a beast would exhibit enormous gravitational flux and the
associated time dilation. It really makes me wonder what happens to normal
radiation that is emitted from the surface. Should we assume that it
becomes red shifted as it travels our direction to a very large extent.
That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space
surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space
itself has expanded to accommodate it? Does anyone on vortex know of the
observations of any stars that fall into this category? Perhaps they
appear like red giants at our location-interesting question. The obvious
solution is that they explode before this occurs. Is that their fate?
Speculation can be fun to engage in, but I am not sure that it is
productive to keep alive a thread for this long unless other members of the
vortex become interested. It does not seem fair to them for us to borrow
most of the bandwidth for so long so I plan to return to the main topic
very soon. I have enjoyed our thought processes and it is relaxing after I
finally competed a good model for the MFMP cell behavior.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@esk
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Also, if we consider a black hole the mass of Jupiter, 1.9x10e27 kg which will be a fraction of a degree k, as you approach I believe you will be shredded into protons and electrons as you approach the surface just like the gas ball of hydrogen( protons and electrons) around...Jupiter On Thursday, December 27, 2012, ChemE Stewart wrote: Thanks, we've got em On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: For this particular thread we were concentrating upon very large black holes. You can have the tiny ones. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 8:34 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Guys, Not all black holes are cold, the small ones are extremely hot. Unless you only believe in large ones... A black hole weighing 1.2x10e12 kg is about a million K with a radius of 1.8x10e-10 meters. If the sun spit that at earth it might orbit around a few months and collapse atmospheric gasses around it and create a hurricane... http://xaonon.dyndns.org/hawking/ On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: Notice that I carefully specified that the photon left from a point that is extremely close to but outside of the horizon. There is no problem with this location as far as the radial outward path of a photon. If I had said what you suggest the it started within the horizon, then there is an issue. So, the photon as before continues outward from this side of the horizon toward the far away observers. I asked the question about where the energy ends up because I suspect that it becomes distributed throughout space in some manner. One might draw a conclusion that space is stretched out from the horizon due to some form of linear dimension dilation so that the COE is preserved. This is not completely evident and I do not know if it is assumed in any theory except possibly for the curvature of space associated with general relativity. It becomes increasingly complicated if we must deal with dilation of both space and time. My photon thought experiment tends to support that supposition. If one follows the logic in reverse the spaceman sees that any thermal noise or other radiation incident upon the hole from the outside would become very intense within this region near the boundary. You would not want to visit this area for a vacation. Your question about the existence of black holes is a good one. There have been measurements of the effect of one at the center of our galaxy on nearby stars which is quite convincing. Some of the enormous beams of energy being emitted by other galaxies in opposite directions from their axis seem to have not other conceivable mechanisms so far. I have wondered about how matter is added to a black hole once it reaches a point where time dilation becomes so great that we observe it freezing on the way in. Like our test probe ship, this incoming matter should be frozen in some manner until the radiation from it red shifts all the way to zero. Of course that is what we observe at a distance which is the key. Lets start with something simple. A large star that is not quite massive enough to become an assumed black hole behaves in ways that we are familiar. My statement begs an interesting question. How does a star appear to a far away observer if it has a mass that is just below that required for it to become a black hole? I would guess that the outer edge of such a beast would exhibit enormous gravitational flux and the associated time dilation. It really makes me wonder what happens to normal radiation that is emitted from the surface. Should we assume that it becomes red shifted as it travels our direction to a very large extent. That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? Does anyone on vortex know of the observations of any stars that fall into this category? Perhaps they appear like red giants at our location-interesting question. The obvious solution is that they explode before this occurs. Is that their fate? Speculation can be fun to engage in, but I am not sure that it is productive to keep alive a thread for this long unless other members of the vortex become interested. It does not seem fair to them for us to borrow most of the bandwidth for so long so I plan to return to the main topic very soon. I have
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Do you need to compress that mass into something a whole lot smaller before it would become a black hole? Seems like that would eliminate Jupiter as a candidate. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 8:52 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Also, if we consider a black hole the mass of Jupiter, 1.9x10e27 kg which will be a fraction of a degree k, as you approach I believe you will be shredded into protons and electrons as you approach the surface just like the gas ball of hydrogen( protons and electrons) around...Jupiter On Thursday, December 27, 2012, ChemE Stewart wrote: Thanks, we've got em On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: For this particular thread we were concentrating upon very large black holes. You can have the tiny ones. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 8:34 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Guys, Not all black holes are cold, the small ones are extremely hot. Unless you only believe in large ones... A black hole weighing 1.2x10e12 kg is about a million K with a radius of 1.8x10e-10 meters. If the sun spit that at earth it might orbit around a few months and collapse atmospheric gasses around it and create a hurricane... http://xaonon.dyndns.org/hawking/ On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote: Notice that I carefully specified that the photon left from a point that is extremely close to but outside of the horizon. There is no problem with this location as far as the radial outward path of a photon. If I had said what you suggest the it started within the horizon, then there is an issue. So, the photon as before continues outward from this side of the horizon toward the far away observers. I asked the question about where the energy ends up because I suspect that it becomes distributed throughout space in some manner. One might draw a conclusion that space is stretched out from the horizon due to some form of linear dimension dilation so that the COE is preserved. This is not completely evident and I do not know if it is assumed in any theory except possibly for the curvature of space associated with general relativity. It becomes increasingly complicated if we must deal with dilation of both space and time. My photon thought experiment tends to support that supposition. If one follows the logic in reverse the spaceman sees that any thermal noise or other radiation incident upon the hole from the outside would become very intense within this region near the boundary. You would not want to visit this area for a vacation. Your question about the existence of black holes is a good one. There have been measurements of the effect of one at the center of our galaxy on nearby stars which is quite convincing. Some of the enormous beams of energy being emitted by other galaxies in opposite directions from their axis seem to have not other conceivable mechanisms so far. I have wondered about how matter is added to a black hole once it reaches a point where time dilation becomes so great that we observe it freezing on the way in. Like our test probe ship, this incoming matter should be frozen in some manner until the radiation from it red shifts all the way to zero. Of course that is what we observe at a distance which is the key. Lets start with something simple. A large star that is not quite massive enough to become an assumed black hole behaves in ways that we are familiar. My statement begs an interesting question. How does a star appear to a far away observer if it has a mass that is just below that required for it to become a black hole? I would guess that the outer edge of such a beast would exhibit enormous gravitational flux and the associated time dilation. It really makes me wonder what happens to normal radiation that is emitted from the surface. Should we assume that it becomes red shifted as it travels our direction to a very large extent. That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? Does anyone on vortex know of the observations of any stars that fall into this category? Perhaps they appear like red giants at our location-interesting question. The obvious solution is that they explode before this occurs. Is that their fate? Speculation can be fun to engage in, but I am not sure that it is productive to keep alive a thread for this long unless other members of the vortex become interested. It does not seem fair to them for us to borrow most of the bandwidth for so long so I plan to return to the main topic very soon. I have
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Dave,
A black hole of the total mass of Jupiter would be about 3000 meters in
radius.
I believe if you sail thru that gas cloud of Jupiter you will find a primordial
black hole nucleus which be a significant % of the total mass.
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
Do you need to compress that mass into something a whole lot smaller
before it would become a black hole? Seems like that would eliminate
Jupiter as a candidate.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'cheme...@gmail.com');
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'vortex-l@eskimo.com');
Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 8:52 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Also, if we consider a black hole the mass of Jupiter, 1.9x10e27 kg which
will be a fraction of a degree k, as you approach I believe you will be
shredded into protons and electrons as you approach the surface just like
the gas ball of hydrogen( protons and electrons) around...Jupiter
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, ChemE Stewart wrote:
Thanks, we've got em
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
For this particular thread we were concentrating upon very large black
holes. You can have the tiny ones.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Guys,
Not all black holes are cold, the small ones are extremely hot.
Unless you only believe in large ones...
A black hole weighing 1.2x10e12 kg is about a million K with a radius of
1.8x10e-10 meters. If the sun spit that at earth it might orbit around a
few months and collapse atmospheric gasses around it and create a
hurricane...
http://xaonon.dyndns.org/hawking/
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
Notice that I carefully specified that the photon left from a point that
is extremely close to but outside of the horizon. There is no problem with
this location as far as the radial outward path of a photon. If I had said
what you suggest the it started within the horizon, then there is an issue.
So, the photon as before continues outward from this side of the horizon
toward the far away observers. I asked the question about where the energy
ends up because I suspect that it becomes distributed throughout space in
some manner. One might draw a conclusion that space is stretched out from
the horizon due to some form of linear dimension dilation so that the COE
is preserved. This is not completely evident and I do not know if it is
assumed in any theory except possibly for the curvature of space associated
with general relativity.
It becomes increasingly complicated if we must deal with dilation of
both space and time. My photon thought experiment tends to support that
supposition. If one follows the logic in reverse the spaceman sees that
any thermal noise or other radiation incident upon the hole from the
outside would become very intense within this region near the boundary.
You would not want to visit this area for a vacation.
Your question about the existence of black holes is a good one. There
have been measurements of the effect of one at the center of our galaxy on
nearby stars which is quite convincing. Some of the enormous beams of
energy being emitted by other galaxies in opposite directions from their
axis seem to have not other conceivable mechanisms so far.
I have wondered about how matter is added to a black hole once it
reaches a point where time dilation becomes so great that we observe it
freezing on the way in. Like our test probe ship, this incoming matter
should be frozen in some manner until the radiation from it red shifts all
the way to zero. Of course that is what we observe at a distance which is
the key.
Lets start with something simple. A large star that is not quite
massive enough to become an assumed black hole behaves in ways that we are
familiar. My statement begs an interesting question. How does a star
appear to a far away observer if it has a mass that is just below that
required for it to become a black hole? I would guess that the outer edge
of such a beast would exhibit enormous gravitational flux and the
associated time dilation. It really makes me wonder what happens to normal
radiation that is emitted from the surface. Should we assume that it
becomes red shifted as it travels our direction to a very large extent.
That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space
surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible u
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 08:11 PM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: Notice that I carefully specified that the photon left from a point that is extremely close to but outside of the horizon. Then the photon will continue to infinity. I thought that your idea was supposed to be a way to communicate information from within the event horizon to outside, by positing a ship that is outside of our horizon, but sees an event horizon closer, and the second ship is within our horizon -- we can't communicate with it -- but outside of the first ship's horizon. There is no problem with this location as far as the radial outward path of a photon. If I had said what you suggest the it started within the horizon, then there is an issue. So, the photon as before continues outward from this side of the horizon toward the far away observers. I asked the question about where the energy ends up because I suspect that it becomes distributed throughout space in some manner. It's like any photon. It travels until it reaches the end of time. I.e., forever, and a day. Its energy remains intact, but because of the red-shift, the energy is spread out more. One might draw a conclusion that space is stretched out from the horizon due to some form of linear dimension dilation so that the COE is preserved. This is not completely evident and I do not know if it is assumed in any theory except possibly for the curvature of space associated with general relativity. It becomes increasingly complicated if we must deal with dilation of both space and time. My photon thought experiment tends to support that supposition. If one follows the logic in reverse the spaceman sees that any thermal noise or other radiation incident upon the hole from the outside would become very intense within this region near the boundary. You would not want to visit this area for a vacation. Your question about the existence of black holes is a good one. There have been measurements of the effect of one at the center of our galaxy on nearby stars which is quite convincing. Some of the enormous beams of energy being emitted by other galaxies in opposite directions from their axis seem to have not other conceivable mechanisms so far. I have wondered about how matter is added to a black hole once it reaches a point where time dilation becomes so great that we observe it freezing on the way in. Like our test probe ship, this incoming matter should be frozen in some manner until the radiation from it red shifts all the way to zero. Of course that is what we observe at a distance which is the key. What do we have in terms of observation of black holes? Lets start with something simple. A large star that is not quite massive enough to become an assumed black hole behaves in ways that we are familiar. My statement begs an interesting question. How does a star appear to a far away observer if it has a mass that is just below that required for it to become a black hole? I would guess that the outer edge of such a beast would exhibit enormous gravitational flux and the associated time dilation. It really makes me wonder what happens to normal radiation that is emitted from the surface. Should we assume that it becomes red shifted as it travels our direction to a very large extent. It has to be. However, I don't know that any such object has been observed. All the spectral lines would be shifted. We might conclude that the object is a a great distance, and the only way we'd know that it wasn't would be if we could detect graviational effects other than red shift. Blah, blah, blah. That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? No, the energy is not trapped. Light continues to travel at the speed of light. Does anyone on vortex know of the observations of any stars that fall into this category? Perhaps they appear like red giants at our location-interesting question. The obvious solution is that they explode before this occurs. Is that their fate? The spectrum would be very different from a red giant. Speculation can be fun to engage in, but I am not sure that it is productive to keep alive a thread for this long unless other members of the vortex become interested. It does not seem fair to them for us to borrow most of the bandwidth for so long so I plan to return to the main topic very soon. I have enjoyed our thought processes and it is relaxing after I finally competed a good model for the MFMP cell behavior. It is an exercise in thinking, and in recognizing our limits. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 6:45 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 01:47 AM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: I
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? No, the energy is not trapped. Light continues to travel at the speed of light. Actually Abd, a photon has a finite amount of energy that is directly proportional to its frequency. If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space. We could collect each photon with a detector after it leaved the vicinity of the black hole and we would find that it is less energetic. So no, it does not continue forever at the same energy. Then the photon will continue to infinity. I thought that your idea was supposed to be a way to communicate information from within the event horizon to outside, by positing a ship that is outside of our horizon, but sees an event horizon closer, and the second ship is within our horizon -- we can't communicate with it -- but outside of the first ship's horizon. One thing at a time Abd. The main plan is to communicate if possible, but this explains part of the problem and why it happens. Every once in a while it makes sense to look at the overall system. It's like any photon. It travels until it reaches the end of time. I.e., forever, and a day. Its energy remains intact, but because of the red-shift, the energy is spread out more. No. If the photon becomes red shifted, energy is lost from that photon. If the red shift is total down to zero, no energy remains. What do we have in terms of observation of black holes? Sorry if it sounded like I had observations of them. I was just asking if others might as I do not. It has to be. However, I don't know that any such object has been observed. All the spectral lines would be shifted. We might conclude that the object is a a great distance, and the only way we'd know that it wasn't would be if we could detect graviational effects other than red shift. This is a good question for the astronomers. Perhaps they are seeing these things and are not aware of it. It is hard to imagine that there are not a large number of these out there unless they tend to explode before reaching this size range. It might not be a bad idea for the astronomers to take a second look at what is referred to as failed stars or other unusual thermal objects. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 9:26 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 10:16 PM 12/27/2012, David Roberson wrote: That energy leaving the massive star becomes trapped within the space surrounding it to a significant degree; how is this possible unless space itself has expanded to accommodate it? No, the energy is not trapped. Light continues to travel at the speed of light. Actually Abd, a photon has a finite amount of energy that is directly proportional to its frequency. Yes. If it becomes red shifted by definition it has less energy. Since the photon looses energy as it travels through the region from the edge of the black hole toward our observation point, that energy must be stored within this space. The energy is stored in the gravitational system. It is potential energy. When a body falls toward the earth, its potential energy is converted to kinetic energy. When the body is shot from the earth, and it is deaccelerated by gravity, its kinetic energy is converted to potential energy. We don't normally think of light this way. However that seems to me to be what happens. If the light were reflected back to the black hole, returning along the same path, it would regain the energy it lost. Potential energy is converted back to kinetic energy. We could collect each photon with a detector after it leaved the vicinity of the black hole and we would find that it is less energetic. So no, it does not continue forever at the same energy. That's correct. But it continues forever, unless it is obstructed. And it continues at the same velocity. It does not slow down (in a vacuum, anyway). Then the photon will continue to infinity. I thought that your idea was supposed to be a way to communicate information from within the event horizon to outside, by positing a ship that is outside of our horizon, but sees an event horizon closer, and the second ship is within our horizon -- we can't communicate with it -- but outside of the first ship's horizon. One thing at a time Abd. The main plan is to communicate if possible, but this explains part of the problem and why it happens. Every once in a while it makes sense to look at the overall system. It's like any photon. It travels until it reaches the end of time. I.e., forever, and a day. Its energy remains intact, but because of the red-shift, the energy is spread out more. No. If the photon becomes red shifted, energy is lost from that photon. If the red shift is total down to zero, no energy remains. If the photon is beyond the event horizon, heading outward, it is never red shifted to zero. (I was incorrect about energy, though. Energy is lost in climbing the gravitational well, stored as potential energy from gravity.) What do we have in terms of observation of black holes? Sorry if it sounded like I had observations of them. I was just asking if others might as I do not. I didn't think that. It has to be. However, I don't know that any such object has been observed. All the spectral lines would be shifted. We might conclude that the object is a a great distance, and the only way we'd know that it wasn't would be if we could detect graviational effects other than red shift. This is a good question for the astronomers. Perhaps they are seeing these things and are not aware of it. It is hard to imagine that there are not a large number of these out there unless they tend to explode before reaching this size range. It might not be a bad idea for the astronomers to take a second look at what is referred to as failed stars or other unusual thermal objects. I doubt they would miss this. But maybe.
[Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Is the event horizon of a black hole considered an observer relative location? We, who are at a very large distance relative to a black hole see the event horizon as located a finite distance from the center of the star. If another observer happens to be closer to the same hole, does he detect it as somewhat nearer to the center of the hole? I have an interesting thought experiment that depends upon the answer to this question. My suspicion is that the perceived horizon location does depend upon the exact location and most likely motion of the observer. Has anyone had an opportunity to actually calculate this effect? Dave
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I read all the relevant wikipedia pages. My conclusion is that this question is very difficult and that the process of answering it will involve rephrasing it in more precise terms. In particular the term event horizon is a catchall for multiple distinct horizons, each backed by a subtly different mathematical formalism. Jeff On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:20 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Is the event horizon of a black hole considered an observer relative location? We, who are at a very large distance relative to a black hole see the event horizon as located a finite distance from the center of the star. If another observer happens to be closer to the same hole, does he detect it as somewhat nearer to the center of the hole? I have an interesting thought experiment that depends upon the answer to this question. My suspicion is that the perceived horizon location does depend upon the exact location and most likely motion of the observer. Has anyone had an opportunity to actually calculate this effect? Dave
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
That makes it a bit more complicated. I was referring to the exact radius at which light can not escape from a non spinning black hole as observed from far away. If a space ship reaches that radius from our perspective, it would totally blink out of existence. Theoretically, we are located far enough away from the black hole that its gravitational influence is approximately zero for us. I realize that the ship will undergo serious stretching as it approaches the hole, but this is a thought experiment and not real life. Does this help to narrow down the desired horizon? Dave -Original Message- From: Jeff Berkowitz pdx...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 4:57 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon I read all the relevant wikipedia pages. My conclusion is that this question is very difficult and that the process of answering it will involve rephrasing it in more precise terms. In particular the term event horizon is a catchall for multiple distinct horizons, each backed by a subtly different mathematical formalism. Jeff On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:20 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Is the event horizon of a black hole considered an observer relative location? We, who are at a very large distance relative to a black hole see the event horizon as located a finite distance from the center of the star. If another observer happens to be closer to the same hole, does he detect it as somewhat nearer to the center of the hole? I have an interesting thought experiment that depends upon the answer to this question. My suspicion is that the perceived horizon location does depend upon the exact location and most likely motion of the observer. Has anyone had an opportunity to actually calculate this effect? Dave
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Isn't it a calculated location? Isn't it the radius from the center of the black hole at which a theoretical object at a great distance would reach the speed of light when falling into the black hole from its gravity? Craig On 12/26/2012 04:57 PM, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: I read all the relevant wikipedia pages. My conclusion is that this question is very difficult and that the process of answering it will involve rephrasing it in more precise terms. In particular the term event horizon is a catchall for multiple distinct horizons, each backed by a subtly different mathematical formalism. Jeff On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:20 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com mailto:dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Is the event horizon of a black hole considered an observer relative location? We, who are at a very large distance relative to a black hole see the event horizon as located a finite distance from the center of the star. If another observer happens to be closer to the same hole, does he detect it as somewhat nearer to the center of the hole? I have an interesting thought experiment that depends upon the answer to this question. My suspicion is that the perceived horizon location does depend upon the exact location and most likely motion of the observer. Has anyone had an opportunity to actually calculate this effect? Dave
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I think that might be the way it could be calculated. I am looking at it from the other side where any photon of light sent out by our probe space ship at that location would exactly run out of energy as it reaches us. I suppose you could say the red shift would be infinite for electromagnetic radiation departing that boundary. And I guess any photon we emit from our vantage point would become infinitely high in frequency as it approached that location. This sounds like a singularity since we know that it is not possible for a photon to obtain an infinite amount of energy in a finite amount of time. The suggestion is that time must be slowed down from our perspective of the ship as it approaches that boundary. I am hoping to establish that there exists a boundary from which an object becomes invisible to us once it is crossed. Dave -Original Message- From: Craig cchayniepub...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Isn't it a calculated location? Isn't it the radius from the center of the black hole at which a theoretical object at a great distance would reach the speed of light when falling into the black hole from its gravity? Craig On 12/26/2012 04:57 PM, Jeff Berkowitz wrote: I read all the relevant wikipedia pages. Myconclusion is that this question is very difficult and that theprocess of answering it will involve rephrasing it in moreprecise terms. In particular the term event horizon is acatchall for multiple distinct horizons, each backed by asubtly different mathematical formalism. Jeff On Wed, Dec 26, 2012 at 9:20 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Is the event horizon of a black hole considered an observer relative location? We, who are at a very large distance relative to a black hole see the event horizon as located a finite distance from the center of the star. If another observer happens to be closer to the same hole, does he detect it as somewhat nearer to the center of the hole? I have an interesting thought experiment that dependsupon the answer to this question. My suspicion is thatthe perceived horizon location does depend upon theexact location and most likely motion of the observer. Has anyone had an opportunity to actually calculatethis effect? Dave
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 06:16 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: I am hoping to establish that there exists a boundary from which an object becomes invisible to us once it is crossed. There must. An event horizon is a boundary in spacetime beyond which events cannot affect an outside observer. (WP). The article notes that, from a perspective of an observer who is behind the object (i.e., the object is along a line between the observer and the black hole center), the object never appears to reach the event horizon, the image being increasingly red-shifted as the object approaches the horizon. That puzzled me. It didn't seem to be correct. But I was misreading it. Light would be red-shifted as the object emitting it approaches the event horizon, yes. The event horizon is the bundary where escape velocity reaches the speed of light. Light doesn't slow down, though, it shifts frequency or wavelength, and the wavelength as the object approaches the event horizon would approach infinity. Aother way of saying that would be that the photon energy approaches zero. Old Black Hole Exploring Spaceships Never Die, They Just Fade Away. But the WP article indicates that the object would never appear to reach the event horizon, which could be read to imply that it slows down. No, it would not slow down, it would be, unless under some other accelerating force, accelerating toward the black hole, and that could be seen. As it approachs the Event Horizon, the light, or any other signal, would be red-shifted until no energy reaches the observer as it reaches the Event Horizon. The signals do still travel at the speed of light. David, you didn't *exactly* state it correctly. The object becomes less and less visible as it approaches the Event Horizon, not once it is crossed.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Well, this was a type of trick question. I agree that from the perspective of an observer far away out of the influence of the imaginary black hole boundary the probe ship would never appear to breech the boundary. We would see any light emitted from this ship very red shifted as the ship proceeded forward from our perspective. Eventually, as after an infinite amount of time the ship would become invisible entirely since no energy is left within photons that arrive at our location. Now, here is my thought experiment. Take another probe ship and let it follow the first one toward the boundary. It is closer to the first ship than us such that it perceives the boundary as nearer to the black hole center than us. It therefore remains in contact with the first probe and can receive transmissions from it after we can no longer receive significant energy. We readily pick up signals from the second ship since it is a safe distance from the boundary that we perceive. We obtain status from the first probe via the second. I wonder if this is a hypothetical technique that would allow information to be obtained from objects such as our first probe ship as they arbitrarily approach a black hole? Could a chain of relay stations defeat the lost information problem? If this is possible then a lot of interesting questions arise. Perhaps information is not lost as it enters a black hole after all. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 06:16 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: I am hoping to establish that there exists a boundary from which an object becomes invisible to us once it is crossed. There must. An event horizon is a boundary in spacetime beyond which events cannot affect an outside observer. (WP). The article notes that, from a perspective of an observer who is behind the object (i.e., the object is along a line between the observer and the black hole center), the object never appears to reach the event horizon, the image being increasingly red-shifted as the object approaches the horizon. That puzzled me. It didn't seem to be correct. But I was misreading it. Light would be red-shifted as the object emitting it approaches the event horizon, yes. The event horizon is the bundary where escape velocity reaches the speed of light. Light doesn't slow down, though, it shifts frequency or wavelength, and the wavelength as the object approaches the event horizon would approach infinity. Aother way of saying that would be that the photon energy approaches zero. Old Black Hole Exploring Spaceships Never Die, They Just Fade Away. But the WP article indicates that the object would never appear to reach the event horizon, which could be read to imply that it slows down. No, it would not slow down, it would be, unless under some other accelerating force, accelerating toward the black hole, and that could be seen. As it approachs the Event Horizon, the light, or any other signal, would be red-shifted until no energy reaches the observer as it reaches the Event Horizon. The signals do still travel at the speed of light. David, you didn't *exactly* state it correctly. The object becomes less and less visible as it approaches the Event Horizon, not once it is crossed.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Abd, time is supposed to be dilated for the probe ship from our perspective as it approaches the black hole event boundary. I think of it in the following way: On the probe ship one could place any form of clock that he chooses to keep track of local time. Let'c choose a laser beam for his clock where he sample the emission frequency and divides it down to what is needed. Of course we would be able to compare the final counted down pulse rate to his heart rate for example. I believe that the amount of time dilation is exactly the fractional change in the laser fundamental frequency. The heart of the spaceman would appear to beat at the exact same ratio. His every move would be slowed down to us until he freezes when the emission frequency of the laser becomes zero due to red shift as a limit. It will take an infinite amount of time from our view point for this to occur. Dave -Original Message- From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Well, this was a type of trick question. I agree that from the perspective of an observer far away out of the influence of the imaginary black hole boundary the probe ship would never appear to breech the boundary. We would see any light emitted from this ship very red shifted as the ship proceeded forward from our perspective. Eventually, as after an infinite amount of time the ship would become invisible entirely since no energy is left within photons that arrive at our location. Now, here is my thought experiment. Take another probe ship and let it follow the first one toward the boundary. It is closer to the first ship than us such that it perceives the boundary as nearer to the black hole center than us. It therefore remains in contact with the first probe and can receive transmissions from it after we can no longer receive significant energy. We readily pick up signals from the second ship since it is a safe distance from the boundary that we perceive. We obtain status from the first probe via the second. I wonder if this is a hypothetical technique that would allow information to be obtained from objects such as our first probe ship as they arbitrarily approach a black hole? Could a chain of relay stations defeat the lost information problem? If this is possible then a lot of interesting questions arise. Perhaps information is not lost as it enters a black hole after all. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 06:16 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: I am hoping to establish that there exists a boundary from which an object becomes invisible to us once it is crossed. There must. An event horizon is a boundary in spacetime beyond which events cannot affect an outside observer. (WP). The article notes that, from a perspective of an observer who is behind the object (i.e., the object is along a line between the observer and the black hole center), the object never appears to reach the event horizon, the image being increasingly red-shifted as the object approaches the horizon. That puzzled me. It didn't seem to be correct. But I was misreading it. Light would be red-shifted as the object emitting it approaches the event horizon, yes. The event horizon is the bundary where escape velocity reaches the speed of light. Light doesn't slow down, though, it shifts frequency or wavelength, and the wavelength as the object approaches the event horizon would approach infinity. Aother way of saying that would be that the photon energy approaches zero. Old Black Hole Exploring Spaceships Never Die, They Just Fade Away. But the WP article indicates that the object would never appear to reach the event horizon, which could be read to imply that it slows down. No, it would not slow down, it would be, unless under some other accelerating force, accelerating toward the black hole, and that could be seen. As it approachs the Event Horizon, the light, or any other signal, would be red-shifted until no energy reaches the observer as it reaches the Event Horizon. The signals do still travel at the speed of light. David, you didn't *exactly* state it correctly. The object becomes less and less visible as it approaches the Event Horizon, not once it is crossed.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I believe whatever approaches a black hole will be shredded by radiation as
it approaches its surface since gravity is entropic. The point at which you
are completely shredded after you spin in its accretion disk for awhile you
will become part of the entropy of the hole...
On Wednesday, December 26, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
Abd, time is supposed to be dilated for the probe ship from our
perspective as it approaches the black hole event boundary. I think of it
in the following way: On the probe ship one could place any form of clock
that he chooses to keep track of local time. Let'c choose a laser beam
for his clock where he sample the emission frequency and divides it down to
what is needed. Of course we would be able to compare the final counted
down pulse rate to his heart rate for example.
I believe that the amount of time dilation is exactly the fractional
change in the laser fundamental frequency. The heart of the spaceman would
appear to beat at the exact same ratio. His every move would be slowed
down to us until he freezes when the emission frequency of the laser
becomes zero due to red shift as a limit.
It will take an infinite amount of time from our view point for this to
occur.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'dlrober...@aol.com');
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'vortex-l@eskimo.com');
Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 7:18 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Well, this was a type of trick question. I agree that from the
perspective of an observer far away out of the influence of the imaginary
black hole boundary the probe ship would never appear to breech the
boundary. We would see any light emitted from this ship very red shifted
as the ship proceeded forward from our perspective. Eventually, as after
an infinite amount of time the ship would become invisible entirely since
no energy is left within photons that arrive at our location.
Now, here is my thought experiment. Take another probe ship and let it
follow the first one toward the boundary. It is closer to the first ship
than us such that it perceives the boundary as nearer to the black hole
center than us. It therefore remains in contact with the first probe and
can receive transmissions from it after we can no longer receive
significant energy. We readily pick up signals from the second ship since
it is a safe distance from the boundary that we perceive. We obtain status
from the first probe via the second.
I wonder if this is a hypothetical technique that would allow
information to be obtained from objects such as our first probe ship as
they arbitrarily approach a black hole? Could a chain of relay stations
defeat the lost information problem? If this is possible then a lot of
interesting questions arise. Perhaps information is not lost as it enters
a black hole after all.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'a...@lomaxdesign.com');
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'vortex-l@eskimo.com');; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.comjavascript:_e({},
'cvml', 'vortex-l@eskimo.com');
Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 6:53 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 06:16 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote:
I am hoping to establish that there exists a boundary from which an
object becomes invisible to us once it is crossed.
There must. An event horizon is a boundary in spacetime beyond
which events cannot affect an outside observer. (WP).
The article notes that, from a perspective of an observer who is
behind the object (i.e., the object is along a line between the
observer and the black hole center), the object never appears to
reach the event horizon, the image being increasingly red-shifted as
the object approaches the horizon.
That puzzled me. It didn't seem to be correct. But I was misreading it.
Light would be red-shifted as the object emitting it approaches the
event horizon, yes. The event horizon is the bundary where escape
velocity reaches the speed of light. Light doesn't slow down, though,
it shifts frequency or wavelength, and the wavelength as the object
approaches the event horizon would approach infinity. Aother way of
saying that would be that the photon energy approaches zero.
Old Black Hole Exploring Spaceships Never Die, They Just Fade Away.
But the WP article indicates that the object would never appear to
reach the event horizon, which could be read to imply that it slows
down. No, it would not slow down, it would be, unless under some
other accelerating force, accelerating toward the black hole, and
that could be seen. As it approachs the Event Horizon, the light, or
any other signal, would be red-shifted until no energy reaches the
observer as it reaches the Event Horizon.
The signals do still
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Let's get down to the nitty gritty here. At 12:20 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: Is the event horizon of a black hole considered an observer relative location? We, who are at a very large distance relative to a black hole see the event horizon as located a finite distance from the center of the star. If another observer happens to be closer to the same hole, does he detect it as somewhat nearer to the center of the hole? No. Here is how I come up with that. I read closer as still being in the same inertial frame of reference, and that frame of reference includes the black hole. So the two observers and the black hole location are stationary with respect to each other. That requires some kind of restraining structure, we will make one out of unobtainium, if I have any left over from my other project. Obviously, the unobtainium structure is quite large, it surrounds the black hole and is thus not going to fall into it. No touchie, though. Before the object reaches the black hole, it emits a photon toward the observers. That photon travels at the speed of light. As it climbs the gravity well, it red-shifts, but its velocity doesn't change. Because the red shift depends on the relative position of the point of emission, and the point of observation, and if one knows the original frequency of the light, and the gravitational field, one can determine the location of the object when the light was emitted. Let's assume that there are two photons, emitted together, parallel to each other, and one is captured by the inner observer, and one by the outer. The outer capture, of course, because of the time it takes the photon to travel to the outer station. But both stations will calculate the same position for the emitting object. However, that's a calculated position. The question implies a method for determining the position of an object. What do we mean by location? How do we determine it? How do we see an event horizon? What do we mean by seeing the position of the object? A black hole cannot pass any light from behind it. Light that grazes it will be curved, toward the object. Gravitational lensing. If there is a bright background, with collimated light, the black hole would appear, relatively close to the hole, to be larger than it is, because grazing light would converge. It would come to a focus point. Beyond that point, the black hole would be only a darkening of a region. Light that grazes would be blue-shifted as it approaches the black hole, and red-shifted as it continues past it. Okay, a thought experiment. We have a very good telescope. We can see two targets on the object, and we see the distance of the targets by how far apart the targets appear, we can measure that, and use the angular distance to determine the physical distance. Problem is, that damned gravitational lense. Suppose the targets are equidistant from the center line, i.e., the line between the observer and the black hole, and the object is held at a distance. Long strong string, out to our unobtainium structure. Unobtainium twine, special manufacture. How do the two observers see the object? Well, the light emitted from the targets is lensed. It will be bent toward the centerline. The targets will appear to be farther apart than they are. Our rangefinder will see the object as closer than it is. It seems that this effect will increase with distance, as the light curves more. So the further observer will see the object as further out. But this is a mere optical effect! The method of determing distance by observing the red shift of light with a known emission frequency, through a known gravitational field, would not be fooled. Look, this is really outside my field. There are many ways to get an analysis like this wrong. I have about 10% confidence that I got it right. I have an interesting thought experiment that depends upon the answer to this question. My suspicion is that the perceived horizon location does depend upon the exact location and most likely motion of the observer. Has anyone had an opportunity to actually calculate this effect? My suggestion is obvious. Nail down what you mean by exact location. Motion of the observer tosses another complication into the picture, relativity, time dilation, yatta yatta. Gotta watch out for tought experiments. They often reveal more about how we think than they reveal about reality, and if our thinking is not really careful and solid, well, you can get more stinkin from thinkin than from drinkin, an old friend used to say.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
For this thought experiment you need to assume that you are heading directly toward the center of the black hole and that it is not spinning. I do not recall any laws of physics which prevent this case. Are you assuming that the black hole has a surface that can be impacted? It seems like some scientists consider a black hole to be a singularity that occupies zero volume. A neutron star is thought of as consisting of packed neutrons, but the gravitational forces associated with a large black hole might crush those into a very tiny region. I suspect that we are touching upon issues where the theory breaks down. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 7:43 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon I believe whatever approaches a black hole will be shredded by radiation as it approaches its surface since gravity is entropic. The point at which you are completely shredded after you spin in its accretion disk for awhile you will become part of the entropy of the hole... On Wednesday, December 26, 2012, David Roberson wrote: Abd, time is supposed to be dilated for the probe ship from our perspective as it approaches the black hole event boundary. I think of it in the following way: On the probe ship one could place any form of clock that he chooses to keep track of local time. Let'c choose a laser beam for his clock where he sample the emission frequency and divides it down to what is needed. Of course we would be able to compare the final counted down pulse rate to his heart rate for example. I believe that the amount of time dilation is exactly the fractional change in the laser fundamental frequency. The heart of the spaceman would appear to beat at the exact same ratio. His every move would be slowed down to us until he freezes when the emission frequency of the laser becomes zero due to red shift as a limit. It will take an infinite amount of time from our view point for this to occur. Dave -Original Message- From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Well, this was a type of trick question. I agree that from the perspective of an observer far away out of the influence of the imaginary black hole boundary the probe ship would never appear to breech the boundary. We would see any light emitted from this ship very red shifted as the ship proceeded forward from our perspective. Eventually, as after an infinite amount of time the ship would become invisible entirely since no energy is left within photons that arrive at our location. Now, here is my thought experiment. Take another probe ship and let it follow the first one toward the boundary. It is closer to the first ship than us such that it perceives the boundary as nearer to the black hole center than us. It therefore remains in contact with the first probe and can receive transmissions from it after we can no longer receive significant energy. We readily pick up signals from the second ship since it is a safe distance from the boundary that we perceive. We obtain status from the first probe via the second. I wonder if this is a hypothetical technique that would allow information to be obtained from objects such as our first probe ship as they arbitrarily approach a black hole? Could a chain of relay stations defeat the lost information problem? If this is possible then a lot of interesting questions arise. Perhaps information is not lost as it enters a black hole after all. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 06:16 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: I am hoping to establish that there exists a boundary from which an object becomes invisible to us once it is crossed. There must. An event horizon is a boundary in spacetime beyond which events cannot affect an outside observer. (WP). The article notes that, from a perspective of an observer who is behind the object (i.e., the object is along a line between the observer and the black hole center), the object never appears to reach the event horizon, the image being increasingly red-shifted as the object approaches the horizon. That puzzled me. It didn't seem to be correct. But I was misreading it. Light would be red-shifted as the object emitting it approaches the event horizon, yes. The event horizon is the bundary where escape velocity reaches the speed of light. Light doesn't slow down, though, it shifts frequency or wavelength, and the wavelength as the object approaches the event horizon would approach infinity. Aother way of saying that would be that the photon energy approaches zero
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
This is a complex problem to think about. I am making an effort to save information that is entering a black hole by a technique that is theoretically possible. One of the main problems facing theorists is that information appears to be lost by absorption into the hole and that is considered a no no. You make a mistake in your suggestion that the boundary does not appear at a different location for each observer as I stated. You chose our far away frame of reference for every observer and that is not proper in this case. Each one has his own sets of observations. The second shipmate looks toward the black hole and sees the first one until the first one crosses a boundary that is closer to the black hole than the one we calculate and view. The second guy has a computer just like us and he knows that he has moved toward the hole by a certain amount. When he passed slowly by our location we discussed his mission and he and us agreed that the distance both of us determined to the black hole boundary was the same. Since he left our location, he traveled toward the beast and with his computer he knew that the distance to the center was becoming shorter with every moment of travel. Now, it is quite obvious that if he stops short of the boundary, he sees that it has moved to a now location that is closer to the center of the hole. He looks back and sees us a long way away since he has traveled for a long amount of time by his clock in the direction of the hole. Each observer has his own perception of time and distance. Of course each could transform his observations according to the rules of relativity, but his own observations must be valid. It is unproductive for you to say that observer two can perform transformations to get back to our perspective far away. Let him make his own observations of what he sees without our dilution. My contention is that he perceives the boundary as closer to the black hole than we originally thought. Furthermore, the first probe ship now is easier for him to observe since light emitted from it has not been red shifted to the degree that us far away people observe. Also, we look toward our good friend on the second ship that is closer to the center of the hole than us and see that his heart is beating slower than it was when he was nearby. He does not measure any change to his pulse rate since his time is local. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Let's get down to the nitty gritty here. At 12:20 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: Is the event horizon of a black hole considered an observer relative location? We, who are at a very large distance relative to a black hole see the event horizon as located a finite distance from the center of the star. If another observer happens to be closer to the same hole, does he detect it as somewhat nearer to the center of the hole? No. Here is how I come up with that. I read closer as still being in the same inertial frame of reference, and that frame of reference includes the black hole. So the two observers and the black hole location are stationary with respect to each other. That requires some kind of restraining structure, we will make one out of unobtainium, if I have any left over from my other project. Obviously, the unobtainium structure is quite large, it surrounds the black hole and is thus not going to fall into it. No touchie, though. Before the object reaches the black hole, it emits a photon toward the observers. That photon travels at the speed of light. As it climbs the gravity well, it red-shifts, but its velocity doesn't change. Because the red shift depends on the relative position of the point of emission, and the point of observation, and if one knows the original frequency of the light, and the gravitational field, one can determine the location of the object when the light was emitted. Let's assume that there are two photons, emitted together, parallel to each other, and one is captured by the inner observer, and one by the outer. The outer capture, of course, because of the time it takes the photon to travel to the outer station. But both stations will calculate the same position for the emitting object. However, that's a calculated position. The question implies a method for determining the position of an object. What do we mean by location? How do we determine it? How do we see an event horizon? What do we mean by seeing the position of the object? A black hole cannot pass any light from behind it. Light that grazes it will be curved, toward the object. Gravitational lensing. If there is a bright background, with collimated light, the black hole would appear, relatively close to the hole, to be larger than it is, because grazing light
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 05:55 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: That makes it a bit more complicated. I was referring to the exact radius at which light can not escape from a non spinning black hole as observed from far away. If a space ship reaches that radius from our perspective, it would totally blink out of existence. No. Actually, nothing happens to the spaceship. Neglecting tidal forces or other effects from the environment near a black hole, it doesn't even experience the event horizon as anything special. Ummm it might start to see things that can't be seen from outside. Like what is in the hole and what is on the other side. What happens is that the space ship becomes unobservable to us, except the mass is still there. The mass of the black hole increases by it. If I'm correct, gravity is the only observable that remains.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Radiation will kill you before you get to the surface and gravity will
shred you and you will accrete around the hole until you are completely
entropified and that is what will be imprinted on the surface. That will
take awhile with many black holes because as their surface area gets
smaller they suffer from indigestion
Stewart
Darkmattersalot.com
On Wednesday, December 26, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
We both agree that nothing will happen to the ship itself unless tidal
forces tear it apart. That has not been an issue and I am not sure of why
you start with the assumption that I think it will. You must have
misunderstood my statement. I suppose I could have made it in a clearer
manner.
The ship itself will never think it reaches the ultimate boundary but we
will see radiation emitted by it become red shifted until no more
detectable energy comes our way from it. That is what I refer to as blink
out of existence, not actually be destroyed. This process with take an
infinite amount of time to complete so I guess theoretically it is always
detectable until the noise hides what is left of the low frequency energy.
The mass of the ship will appear to become infinite to us as it fades
into the noise and the spaceman will appear to freeze in place due to time
dilation. From our perspective, the ship becomes frozen at what we believe
is the event horizon, although the other closer observers will not agree
with our location determination.
Once before a long time ago you strongly disagreed with the idea of time
dilation for a traveler as he enters a black hole. I suspect that you now
realize that this must occur.
Yes, I see that now you understand that the spaceman nearing what we
considered the event horizon sees to the other side. He can continue to
communicate with the first guy that started ahead of him on the journey and
report back to us. That is what I have been trying to prove all along.
Who said off topic discussions are not interesting and educational?
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'a...@lomaxdesign.com');
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'vortex-l@eskimo.com');; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.comjavascript:_e({},
'cvml', 'vortex-l@eskimo.com');
Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 9:53 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 05:55 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote:
That makes it a bit more complicated. I was referring to the exact
radius at which light can not escape from a non spinning black hole
as observed from far away. If a space ship reaches that radius from
our perspective, it would totally blink out of existence.
No. Actually, nothing happens to the spaceship. Neglecting tidal
forces or other effects from the environment near a black hole, it
doesn't even experience the event horizon as anything special.
Ummm it might start to see things that can't be seen from
outside. Like what is in the hole and what is on the other side.
What happens is that the space ship becomes unobservable to us,
except the mass is still there. The mass of the black hole increases
by it. If I'm correct, gravity is the only observable that remains.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
We both agree that nothing will happen to the ship itself unless tidal forces tear it apart. That has not been an issue and I am not sure of why you start with the assumption that I think it will. You must have misunderstood my statement. I suppose I could have made it in a clearer manner. The ship itself will never think it reaches the ultimate boundary but we will see radiation emitted by it become red shifted until no more detectable energy comes our way from it. That is what I refer to as blink out of existence, not actually be destroyed. This process with take an infinite amount of time to complete so I guess theoretically it is always detectable until the noise hides what is left of the low frequency energy. The mass of the ship will appear to become infinite to us as it fades into the noise and the spaceman will appear to freeze in place due to time dilation. From our perspective, the ship becomes frozen at what we believe is the event horizon, although the other closer observers will not agree with our location determination. Once before a long time ago you strongly disagreed with the idea of time dilation for a traveler as he enters a black hole. I suspect that you now realize that this must occur. Yes, I see that now you understand that the spaceman nearing what we considered the event horizon sees to the other side. He can continue to communicate with the first guy that started ahead of him on the journey and report back to us. That is what I have been trying to prove all along. Who said off topic discussions are not interesting and educational? Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 05:55 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: That makes it a bit more complicated. I was referring to the exact radius at which light can not escape from a non spinning black hole as observed from far away. If a space ship reaches that radius from our perspective, it would totally blink out of existence. No. Actually, nothing happens to the spaceship. Neglecting tidal forces or other effects from the environment near a black hole, it doesn't even experience the event horizon as anything special. Ummm it might start to see things that can't be seen from outside. Like what is in the hole and what is on the other side. What happens is that the space ship becomes unobservable to us, except the mass is still there. The mass of the black hole increases by it. If I'm correct, gravity is the only observable that remains.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 05:56 PM 12/26/2012, Craig wrote: Isn't it a calculated location? Isn't it the radius from the center of the black hole at which a theoretical object at a great distance would reach the speed of light when falling into the black hole from its gravity? No. Mass doesn't ever reach the speed of light. Light only travels at the speed of light I'm puzzled here. In fact, I'm seriously starting to smell a rat. There is one somewhere around here, and I don't know if it's only in my thinking, or in how event horizons and the like are being explained. The event horizon is being described as the boundary around a black hole where the gravity is so intense that light cannot travel away from the hole at all. Yet it's also being stated that the event horizon is generally between the observer and the singularity, that if you cross the event horizon, the singularity is still in front of you. I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my mind about both ideas at the same time. It's also being said that a spaceship approaching the event horizon from an observer's direction would appear to slow down, and redshift, until it disappears. The slowing down, why? The ship is actually, as it approaches the horizon, accelerating. Light leaving it, before it reaches the horizon, will be redshifted, but that light will still travel at the speed of light. Why would the ship appear to slow down?
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
On 12/26/2012 10:56 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: At 05:56 PM 12/26/2012, Craig wrote: Isn't it a calculated location? Isn't it the radius from the center of the black hole at which a theoretical object at a great distance would reach the speed of light when falling into the black hole from its gravity? No. Mass doesn't ever reach the speed of light. Light only travels at the speed of light Black holes defy the laws of physics. The escape velocity of a black hole is greater than the speed of light. The escape velocity is the same speed at which an object, falling from infinity, would reach when it hit the center of mass. Einstein's General Theory of Relativity treats gravity in a similar way to objects travelling very fast. Objects in a strong gravitational field appear to slow down from an observer in a lesser gravitational field. As the ship neared the event horizon, its clock would slow down. An outside observer would never see it reach the event horizon because at that point, the clock would stop. The formulas are similar to that of a ship speeding away at an ever increasing speed. Craig I'm puzzled here. In fact, I'm seriously starting to smell a rat. There is one somewhere around here, and I don't know if it's only in my thinking, or in how event horizons and the like are being explained. The event horizon is being described as the boundary around a black hole where the gravity is so intense that light cannot travel away from the hole at all. Yet it's also being stated that the event horizon is generally between the observer and the singularity, that if you cross the event horizon, the singularity is still in front of you. I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my mind about both ideas at the same time. It's also being said that a spaceship approaching the event horizon from an observer's direction would appear to slow down, and redshift, until it disappears. The slowing down, why? The ship is actually, as it approaches the horizon, accelerating. Light leaving it, before it reaches the horizon, will be redshifted, but that light will still travel at the speed of light. Why would the ship appear to slow down?
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 07:17 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: Well, this was a type of trick question. I agree that from the perspective of an observer far away out of the influence of the imaginary black hole boundary the probe ship would never appear to breech the boundary. We would see any light emitted from this ship very red shifted as the ship proceeded forward from our perspective. Eventually, as after an infinite amount of time the ship would become invisible entirely since no energy is left within photons that arrive at our location. If you can explain that, great. (That infinite amount of time, i.e., the slowdown, fries my brain at this point. Yes, at the limit, no photons can reach us, but this doesn't match the description of the event horizon.) As the ship *approaches* the event horizon, it is still outside of it. And the light still travels at the speed of light, it is merely redshifted. Now, here is my thought experiment. Take another probe ship and let it follow the first one toward the boundary. It is closer to the first ship than us such that it perceives the boundary as nearer to the black hole center than us. It therefore remains in contact with the first probe and can receive transmissions from it after we can no longer receive significant energy. We readily pick up signals from the second ship since it is a safe distance from the boundary that we perceive. We obtain status from the first probe via the second. This is roughly the paradox that I came across, the rat I smell. I wonder if this is a hypothetical technique that would allow information to be obtained from objects such as our first probe ship as they arbitrarily approach a black hole? Could a chain of relay stations defeat the lost information problem? If this is possible then a lot of interesting questions arise. Perhaps information is not lost as it enters a black hole after all. Or perhaps, far more likely, we are not understanding black holes. I'm not seeing any clear explanations out there, with an easy search. That's puzzing in itself. I found plenty of articles that say this is how it is or that is how it is, but very little explanation that actually leads to understanding. When that happens in schools, it's a sign that the teacher doesn't really grasp the subject or, alternatively, is knowledgeable, but clueless as to how to explain it. I'm suspecting there is a problem with relativity here. If a photon can travel from spaceship A to spaceship B and from B to our outside observer, why can't the same photon just travel from A to the outside observer. It makes no sense, David. Okay, here is how it could make sense. The photon from A to B is redshifted. If it continued to travel it would be redshifted out of existence. However, B emits a photon that is back at a starting frequency, so it can make it. But this is all totally contrary to other explanations.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
At 07:33 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: Abd, time is supposed to be dilated for the probe ship from our perspective as it approaches the black hole event boundary. Yes, it would be. However,time is dilated for muons that are travelling close to c, but they don't slow down. They are travelling close to c! The muon decay clock slows down. Not the muon. I think of it in the following way: On the probe ship one could place any form of clock that he chooses to keep track of local time. Let'c choose a laser beam for his clock where he sample the emission frequency and divides it down to what is needed. Of course we would be able to compare the final counted down pulse rate to his heart rate for example. I believe that the amount of time dilation is exactly the fractional change in the laser fundamental frequency. The heart of the spaceman would appear to beat at the exact same ratio. His every move would be slowed down to us until he freezes when the emission frequency of the laser becomes zero due to red shift as a limit. It will take an infinite amount of time from our view point for this to occur. It would *not* take that time for the spaceship to reach the event horizon. We'd see the spaceship accelerating, in fact (nothing could hold it back), and it would redshift, but ... we'd not see it slow down. We'd see *events on board* slow down. In fact, imagine the light beam coming to us from the ship. It has a certain source frequency, so many cycles per second. Suppose the black holonauts are talking to us, modulated on that beam. As it approaches the event horizion, the beam would redshift (for us) and the voices would slow down. It's actually a gravity-induced doppler shift, plus the velocity shift. To them, nothing special is happening. But if they are monitoring a beam from us, what would happen to it? (I can answer this with velocity-induced time dilation, but haven't much of a clue about the gravity kind, yet.)
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
. Who said off topic discussions are not interesting and educational? Not I! Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 05:55 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: That makes it a bit more complicated. I was referring to the exact radius at which light can not escape from a non spinning black hole as observed from far away. If a space ship reaches that radius from our perspective, it would totally blink out of existence. No. Actually, nothing happens to the spaceship. Neglecting tidal forces or other effects from the environment near a black hole, it doesn't even experience the event horizon as anything special. Ummm it might start to see things that can't be seen from outside. Like what is in the hole and what is on the other side. What happens is that the space ship becomes unobservable to us, except the mass is still there. The mass of the black hole increases by it. If I'm correct, gravity is the only observable that remains.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
That sounds like a pretty hard way to leave this world ChemE. Have you considered what it would be like to approach a massive black hole? If the black hole is large and massive enough the event horizon as viewed from the far away sites might not have such a dramatic gravitational gradient. I have not given that much thought, but it seems likely that the approach would be milder with less variation in gravitational strength as you head inward to the boundary. If a photon left the surface of the black hole and headed outward in a vector along the radius what would happen to it? Could the energy rapidly be drained as it headed outward until there is nothing left? What would happen to the energy once things settled down? I assume that it would still be in existence within some region. What are your thoughts? Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 10:34 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon Radiation will kill you before you get to the surface and gravity will shred you and you will accrete around the hole until you are completely entropified and that is what will be imprinted on the surface. That will take awhile with many black holes because as their surface area gets smaller they suffer from indigestion Stewart Darkmattersalot.com On Wednesday, December 26, 2012, David Roberson wrote: We both agree that nothing will happen to the ship itself unless tidal forces tear it apart. That has not been an issue and I am not sure of why you start with the assumption that I think it will. You must have misunderstood my statement. I suppose I could have made it in a clearer manner. The ship itself will never think it reaches the ultimate boundary but we will see radiation emitted by it become red shifted until no more detectable energy comes our way from it. That is what I refer to as blink out of existence, not actually be destroyed. This process with take an infinite amount of time to complete so I guess theoretically it is always detectable until the noise hides what is left of the low frequency energy. The mass of the ship will appear to become infinite to us as it fades into the noise and the spaceman will appear to freeze in place due to time dilation. From our perspective, the ship becomes frozen at what we believe is the event horizon, although the other closer observers will not agree with our location determination. Once before a long time ago you strongly disagreed with the idea of time dilation for a traveler as he enters a black hole. I suspect that you now realize that this must occur. Yes, I see that now you understand that the spaceman nearing what we considered the event horizon sees to the other side. He can continue to communicate with the first guy that started ahead of him on the journey and report back to us. That is what I have been trying to prove all along. Who said off topic discussions are not interesting and educational? Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 05:55 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: That makes it a bit more complicated. I was referring to the exact radius at which light can not escape from a non spinning black hole as observed from far away. If a space ship reaches that radius from our perspective, it would totally blink out of existence. No. Actually, nothing happens to the spaceship. Neglecting tidal forces or other effects from the environment near a black hole, it doesn't even experience the event horizon as anything special. Ummm it might start to see things that can't be seen from outside. Like what is in the hole and what is on the other side. What happens is that the space ship becomes unobservable to us, except the mass is still there. The mass of the black hole increases by it. If I'm correct, gravity is the only observable that remains.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
You are asking very good questions. I have given this a little thought over the years and there are certain things that seem likely to happen. It has been proven that a gravity field causes time to dilate. A very large field will cause it to dilate a lot. A black hole has an extremely large gravitational field around it due to the enormous mass. This might explain why time for one on board a spaceship approaching the event horizon slows down from an observer outside of the field and eventually comes to a complete stop. This is strange indeed. Time actually coming to a standstill is difficult to put ones arms around. The implication is that the guy on board that ship does not age at all as far as we are concerned. A million years could go by for us and he would not seem to change. This is a way to travel into our future provided you are not annihilated by the black hole. If you escape the hole, then you get a look at working ECATS! LOL! I sure hope that they are available for sell before a million years goes by. As I was speculating before, I think that the amount of red shift that occurs is directly in proportion to the amount of time dilation for the fellow. Remember his heart beats at a rate that is a fraction of the cycles of the time measuring laser and it seems logical that we observe both changing by the same percentage. The implication is that every method of time keeping is similarly effected by the gravity field present near the black hole boundary. We need to explore this concept and determine whether or not it makes sense. I understand that we should expect that the space guy is accelerating toward the black hole and from his perspective it must be true since he is within a gravitational field. The only way out of this dilemma is if he indeed does continue forward until he becomes dissociated into atoms or whatever near the actual surface of the black hole. This probably happens. But, from our far off perspective it is in an infinite number of years into the future. That is another reason that time dilation must occur. We do not live long enough to see him hit the hole dead on. It never happens during the age of the universe unless some other mechanism is at work that we are unaware of. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 10:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 05:56 PM 12/26/2012, Craig wrote: Isn't it a calculated location? Isn't it the radius from the center of the black hole at which a theoretical object at a great distance would reach the speed of light when falling into the black hole from its gravity? No. Mass doesn't ever reach the speed of light. Light only travels at the speed of light I'm puzzled here. In fact, I'm seriously starting to smell a rat. There is one somewhere around here, and I don't know if it's only in my thinking, or in how event horizons and the like are being explained. The event horizon is being described as the boundary around a black hole where the gravity is so intense that light cannot travel away from the hole at all. Yet it's also being stated that the event horizon is generally between the observer and the singularity, that if you cross the event horizon, the singularity is still in front of you. I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my mind about both ideas at the same time. It's also being said that a spaceship approaching the event horizon from an observer's direction would appear to slow down, and redshift, until it disappears. The slowing down, why? The ship is actually, as it approaches the horizon, accelerating. Light leaving it, before it reaches the horizon, will be redshifted, but that light will still travel at the speed of light. Why would the ship appear to slow down?
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
I am thinking along the line of the second concept that you list at the end. The photon would cease to exist at any energy if allowed to continue by itself from the spaceship that is infinitesimally close to the boundary. So, instead, the second ship intercepts it and any modulation it contains and then uses a new transmitter at a higher frequency to begin the path back to us. The main point is that if they had tried to use the original frequency that they received from the first guy, it too would have gone away by the time it reaches us. The magic is in the fact that more energy is available to complete the path. I believe that this technique makes good sense and would allow the first ship to communicate back home. It still remains to be seen whether or not we receive the message before a very long time has elapsed. consider that the first guy has virtually stopped moving as far as we are concerned and it seems possible that the second ship would see him moving pretty slowly, but not as slowly as we observe. My intuition is that the second spaceman would very quickly reach a state of extreme retardation as he approached the boundary and that there would be a short time window during which he could send a signal before he also froze. This is heavy. For some reason it reminds me of the guy that covered half a given distance in a certain amount of time. He never gets there as a result since distance can be halved forever. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 07:17 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: Well, this was a type of trick question. I agree that from the perspective of an observer far away out of the influence of the imaginary black hole boundary the probe ship would never appear to breech the boundary. We would see any light emitted from this ship very red shifted as the ship proceeded forward from our perspective. Eventually, as after an infinite amount of time the ship would become invisible entirely since no energy is left within photons that arrive at our location. If you can explain that, great. (That infinite amount of time, i.e., the slowdown, fries my brain at this point. Yes, at the limit, no photons can reach us, but this doesn't match the description of the event horizon.) As the ship *approaches* the event horizon, it is still outside of it. And the light still travels at the speed of light, it is merely redshifted. Now, here is my thought experiment. Take another probe ship and let it follow the first one toward the boundary. It is closer to the first ship than us such that it perceives the boundary as nearer to the black hole center than us. It therefore remains in contact with the first probe and can receive transmissions from it after we can no longer receive significant energy. We readily pick up signals from the second ship since it is a safe distance from the boundary that we perceive. We obtain status from the first probe via the second. This is roughly the paradox that I came across, the rat I smell. I wonder if this is a hypothetical technique that would allow information to be obtained from objects such as our first probe ship as they arbitrarily approach a black hole? Could a chain of relay stations defeat the lost information problem? If this is possible then a lot of interesting questions arise. Perhaps information is not lost as it enters a black hole after all. Or perhaps, far more likely, we are not understanding black holes. I'm not seeing any clear explanations out there, with an easy search. That's puzzing in itself. I found plenty of articles that say this is how it is or that is how it is, but very little explanation that actually leads to understanding. When that happens in schools, it's a sign that the teacher doesn't really grasp the subject or, alternatively, is knowledgeable, but clueless as to how to explain it. I'm suspecting there is a problem with relativity here. If a photon can travel from spaceship A to spaceship B and from B to our outside observer, why can't the same photon just travel from A to the outside observer. It makes no sense, David. Okay, here is how it could make sense. The photon from A to B is redshifted. If it continued to travel it would be redshifted out of existence. However, B emits a photon that is back at a starting frequency, so it can make it. But this is all totally contrary to other explanations.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
Abd, it is all in the perception of the various observers. Each one does not detect anything special about their own situation. We, as the far off guys, see the fellow on the ship being affected by the gravitational field he is within. That field is so intense that we see it slow his time measurements down to zero eventually. He does not see this happening from his point of view. He sees that big black zero ahead of him and kisses his butt goodbye. It takes very little time as far as he is concerned until he becomes bacon. For us, an eternity passes before he dies. Now, I find it interesting what we should observe during this process. I agree with you that initially the ship leaving our vicinity must appear to accelerate toward the black hole. I am confident that we could bounce radar pulses off of the ship and measure its velocity and distance from us and that these measurements would show what is expected for a while. The acceleration of the ship would increase as the ship got further away from us until time dilation caught up with the device. There must exist a distance from us at which the ship begins to slow down from our perspective. This must be where the time dilation due to the gravity field exceeds the apparent acceleration due to the pull of the field. As the time dilation wins the battle, the ship appears to decelerate until it eventually comes to a stop. I suspect that you can obtain an idea of how a signal behaves when transmitted from us to the spaceman by thinking of behavior that is reversed from the other direction. All of the frequencies we transmit will be blue shifted by the same proportion. Have you practiced your Donald Duck speak lately? Perhaps a bottle of helium might help! Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2012 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 07:33 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: Abd, time is supposed to be dilated for the probe ship from our perspective as it approaches the black hole event boundary. Yes, it would be. However,time is dilated for muons that are travelling close to c, but they don't slow down. They are travelling close to c! The muon decay clock slows down. Not the muon. I think of it in the following way: On the probe ship one could place any form of clock that he chooses to keep track of local time. Let'c choose a laser beam for his clock where he sample the emission frequency and divides it down to what is needed. Of course we would be able to compare the final counted down pulse rate to his heart rate for example. I believe that the amount of time dilation is exactly the fractional change in the laser fundamental frequency. The heart of the spaceman would appear to beat at the exact same ratio. His every move would be slowed down to us until he freezes when the emission frequency of the laser becomes zero due to red shift as a limit. It will take an infinite amount of time from our view point for this to occur. It would *not* take that time for the spaceship to reach the event horizon. We'd see the spaceship accelerating, in fact (nothing could hold it back), and it would redshift, but ... we'd not see it slow down. We'd see *events on board* slow down. In fact, imagine the light beam coming to us from the ship. It has a certain source frequency, so many cycles per second. Suppose the black holonauts are talking to us, modulated on that beam. As it approaches the event horizion, the beam would redshift (for us) and the voices would slow down. It's actually a gravity-induced doppler shift, plus the velocity shift. To them, nothing special is happening. But if they are monitoring a beam from us, what would happen to it? (I can answer this with velocity-induced time dilation, but haven't much of a clue about the gravity kind, yet.)
Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the implications of this system. I think you are correct in the assumption that the mass of the ship does not reach infinity at the horizon. If we assume that no energy is created out of thin air then the mass of the ship must increase significantly as it reaches the boundary. This must be true since the velocity of the ship becomes zero at that point and all of the gravitational energy due to the initial location of the ship at the beginning point of its journey must be converted into mass. This could be calculated, and it definitely is not infinity but is substantially greater than when at rest in our vicinity. Again, you need to think about each observer and what they perceive. We need to have our laws of physics to be in effect during our observations and the other guys need the same. So far, the only way that this seems likely is for time dilation to work overtime. I suspect that the red shift is a stand in for time dilation on board the ship, but I do not recall seeing that proven. If it is true, then we have an easy technique to employ. I now tend to think that the space guy can impact with the black hole, but that it will take forever for this to happen from our perspective. If he had a jar full of muons, they would never decay as far as we could tell while he is near that boundary. Too bad for him, but the muons would not be able to save him from extinction in a very short time period. Then again, he might live for essentially ever from our point of view which is an extension to his normal life span in our environment. My father used to tell us kids that time passes faster and faster as you get older. Now I understand what he meant. The curvature of space might somehow enter into this discussion but I am not sure how to think of its effect. I am confident that time dilation is a factor, but perhaps the distances are modified as well. That is an area to consider. You know what I think of sources that say that things are meaningless don't you? That translates into I do not know and please do not ask me again. It is late and my mind is becoming mush. Dave -Original Message- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:09 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon At 10:23 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote: We both agree that nothing will happen to the ship itself unless tidal forces tear it apart. That has not been an issue and I am not sure of why you start with the assumption that I think it will. You must have misunderstood my statement. I suppose I could have made it in a clearer manner. I never objected to the thought experiment, nor thought that this would be an issue. We can imagine a teeny-tiny spaceship that is super strong. and we can imagine a really big black hole, so that the curvature doesn't bite us. The ship itself will never think it reaches the ultimate boundary but we will see radiation emitted by it become red shifted until no more detectable energy comes our way from it. I'm no longer confident of any of the explanations. The holonauts never see the singularity, but if they are travelling toward it, in their own time, they see an event horizon ahead of them, becoming smaller more and more intense, I'd think. However, lots of sources say that events beyond the event horizon are meaningless. Part of what is frying my brain here is the gravitational field at the event horizon. The event horizon is defined as the boundary where gravity is so intense that light cannot take a path that increases its distance from the center of gravity. That's geometrical. If the holonauts pass the originally observed event horizon, and see a receded event horizon in front of them, how would the light paths have shifted? It doesn't seem that time dilation would do this. The sense I keep coming up with is that the event horizon is the place beyond which light cannot escape to the *external universe*, which means infinite distance, I found one article that refers to this. Not that it cannot escape to some greater distance. But that contradicts the gravity so intense statements, and the light path statements. I need to examine doppler shift from gravity more closely. I clearly don't understand the extreme case, where light not only can't escape to infinity (equivalent to escape velocity), but it can't go up *at all*. That means that the shift takes place immediately on emission, not upon rise through a gravitational field. That is what I refer to as blink out of existence, not actually be destroyed. This process with take an infinite amount of time to complete so I guess theoretically it is always detectable until the noise hides what is left of the low frequency energy. Where do you get the infinite amount of time from? It seems you
