subject:"Re\: \[Vo\]\:OT\: The Abduction Paradigm"

From Mr Lawrance:

 You don't sound like an annoying broken record.  To be blunt, you sound
 silly, asking that.  I don't think there's any disagreement at all over
 what would constitute an authentic alien artifact -- it would be a
 piece of litter left by an authentic alien, and an authentic alien is a
 non-earth creature.  An *authentic* non-imaginary real-type actually
 existing non-earth creature who can potentially drive a flying saucer
 around and maybe crash it on the White House lawn.

 PLEASE don't start denying that words which have perfectly clear
 definitions can be defined!  If *you* want to go off and use the word
 alien to mean something entirely different, go ahead, but please
 stick to the usual dictionary definition when attempting to hold
 conversations with others in which information will be successfully
 transferred through use of words:

  alien n 3: a form of life assumed to exist outside the Earth or its
  atmosphere [syn: extraterrestrial being]

 (from Wordnet -- there are a number of definitions of 'alien' but I
 don't think anyone here was intending the word to mean, e.g., a
 foreigner.)

 The debate is over the question of whether there are any aliens within
 2 lightyears of the Sun, and whether there have been any of them flying
 around dropping bits of random cruft on Earth any time in the last few
 decades.  The debate is *NOT* over whether the cruft dropped by an
 alien should be called an artifact or not, nor over whether a creature
 from another planet driving around Earth in a flying machine should be
 called an alien.

Just to be clear on this point I sez (previously):

 There is a story, an advertisement (I think it came from IBM) that
 described how a 3rd world tribe found an appropriate use for one of
 their expedition's laptops - a nutcracker. At least it proved the
 artifact was constructed well.

Silly me!

A contraire! I think discussions concerning whether there are
legitimate artifacts amongst us indigenous folk is just as much a
legitimate a discussion here as compared to whether there are any
aliens within 2 light-years of the Sun and whether some of those
trips may have resulted in them having to deal with a flat tire or
two.

But if some of those discarded lug bolts don't crack my nuts, and
it's such a simple request I make here, the object of interest is not
likely carry a lot of significance within my sphere of influence.

Incidentally, is ...within 2 light-years the magic number?

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Mr. Lawrence,

...

Just some idle off-the-wall speculation follows...a fable of sorts:

...

They pondered these issues for a millennium or two, or perhaps it was
for only a couple of microseconds - time can be such an ephemeral
state of mind.

If you're going to use English to communicate with others, please use
the words to mean what we all agree that they mean.

time is not a state of mind. time is what a clock reads, and
elapsed time is the time recorded by a clock between two events. In
any particular reference frame, the time between two events can be a
millennium or it can be a microsecond but it can't be both, and the
elapsed time between those events is most certainly not an ephemeral
state of mind. An ephemeral state of mind is something quite
different.

Similarly, a tomato is not an alien cab driver, and a horse is not a
flying saucer.

A country mile is not an hour.

A minute is not euphoria. Euphoria is a state of mind, it's not a
measure of time. A sad feeling after breakfast is not a month. A sad
feeling is a state of mind, not a measure of time, while a month is a
measure of time, not a state of mind.

And a letter in which you mix up a state of mind with an elapsed time
is not a serious attempt at communication, IMNSHO.

I gather you didn't like portions of my fable.

I'm not a scientist. That is obvious. Nevertheless:

The End of Time, The Next Revolution in Physics, by Julian Brbour

http://www.amazon.com/End-Time-Next-Revolution-Physics/dp/0195145925/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1249237658sr=1-1

http://tinyurl.com/nwxxbb

But Mr. Barbour's book is not what I really what I wanted to comment on.

In my own not so humble opinion, when writing in the guise of a fable
one has permission to exploit the perception of time, or any
perception pertaining to the human condition, any damn way they
please.

Least I sound like I'm admonishing Mr. Lawrence's perceptions, no, I'm
not. I suspect there are strong reasons as to why Mr. Lawrence has
felt the need to express his concerns as adamantly has he appears to
have done so.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-02 Thread Terry Blanton

One of the most well-known and examined artifacts is from the crash at
Ubatuba, Brazil:

http://ufologie.net/htm/ubatuba57.htm

The examination of some of the material:

http://www.nicap.org/ubatubanal.htm

Terry

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Stephen A. Lawrencesa...@pobox.com wrote:


 Certainly discussion of whether there are alien artifacts present is
 perfectly on-topic, for the thread and for the mailing list.

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Mr. Zell,

 Without commenting on individual abduction cases, the general descriptions
 of aliens fits what I would expect from an extremely advanced technological
 culture.  Such as:

 Minimized Individuality ( or none!)  Take a good look at our technology
 and consider that we have progressed from spears to guns to missiles to
 near doomsday weapons that could be loosed by one individual.  You have
 to wonder if the only way an advanced tech culture could exist is if
 they telepathically share thoughts and thereby avoid Lee Harvey Oswald/Bin
 Laden - ish behavior.

 A Propensity to Fabricate.  Does this seem odd?  Well, if you were
 telepathic with a hive like mind ( see above) , you might feel that
 lesser beings 'can't handle the truth' (like us).

 Have you ever known any people deeply involved in clandestine activity?
 Ever notice how they switch back and forth between entirely credible
 accounts and wild BS stories? They do it because they will never get
 caught telli(ng a dangerous truth that way.  You can't tell when they
 are kidding you - or not.  Take a look at Howard Hunt or Ali Aja (the
 Pope's attempted assasin)

 An advanced race would also know something about humans that we often
 can't understand - fantasy works better than truth for motivation.
 How many '70's engineering students plowed thru calculus because of
 the image of Scotty on Startrek?  (not a joke, this came up in
 studies) How many wars - filled with the most extreme self sacrifice
 - are based on fantasies?

 I would also expect that descriptions of alien religion would sound
 very Buddhisty to us.

 Finally,  an advanced race would explore the final frontier :  how to
 manipulate reality itself including all consciousness and matter
 ... See that Airship? (1880's) that Flying Saucer?  That
 Silent Black Helicopter?  A Fairy?  An Angel?  A Grey?  Whatever you
 expect, we can synthesize.

These are all concepts worth pondering.

After all, we are the Vort collective! We are assimilating! ;-)

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Mr. Lawrence:

...

I was objecting to a discussion of the *definition* of an alien
artifact, not to the question of whether we've got some. And it is
also quite possible that I totally missed your point.

Let's go back to some previous comments in an attempt to pick up our
discussions from there.

From Mr. Lawrence

I don't think there's any disagreement at all over what would
constitute an authentic alien artifact -- it would be a piece of
litter left by an authentic alien, and an authentic alien is a
non-earth creature. An *authentic* non-imaginary real-type
actually existing non-earth creature who can potentially drive
a flying saucer around and maybe crash it on the White House lawn.

I disagree. I think there is considerable disagreement on this point.

The point I'm trying to suggest that some of us might want to consider
pondering in more depth is the possibility that while we *think* we
know what would constitute an authentic alien aircraft or associated
alien artifacts, by the simple fact that within the Vort Collective
alone we are witness to so many different flavors concerning what
constitutes reality that attempts to define what constitutes an
authentic alien artifact is not going to be any easier to come to
any consensus. To an alien the discarded object is your simple
run-of-the-mill xx3%%#$ used for #^%() - but to us: can I crack
nuts with it?

As Mr. Beene has hinted in a related post concerning alleged UFOs and
the nature of contacts, a comment posted many many months ago, the
idea that an advance civilization would even NEED to travel in space
ships - and subsequently suffer the slings and arrows of an occasional
flat tire - is primarily a concept of our own limited perceptions,
where we desperately attempt to define the boundaries of a disquieting
concept (the archetype alien) within familiar parameters in our
attempts to make it easier for us to handle so many unknown variables.

But to be honest. Much of my recent treatise deals more with a
different angle altogether, one that suggests that the classic UFO
Abduction Paradigm has its roots more in a symbolic meta-language of
the human psyche. Some might think that because I'm coaching it in
such terms I'm attempting to dismiss the abduction scenario as nothing
more than a psychological matter best dealt with within the confines
of a psychologist/therapists room. Not so. From my perspective the UFO
Abduction Paradigm may in fact hint of an ever more interesting aspect
concerning the nature of reality, particularly how we perceive
reality. The fact that so many individuals have independently
reported(experienced) the same classic abduction scenario over and
over (a scenario that DOES CHANGE depending on one's cultural
background) strongly suggests to me that we are witnessing a
fundamental aspect of our psyche as expressed in a form of a highly
symbolic language of sorts. Not surprising, many of us are absolutely
terrified of the prospects of tapping into a portion of ourselves that
we have allowed to become so alienated from the more acceptable
portions of ourselves that some even prefer to label such primal
encounters as demonic in nature.

Incidentally, I need to thank Mauro Lacy once again for bringing to my
attention the fact that the famous doctor, Carl Jung, discussed the
Flying Saucer archetype in one of his books. I'm very much a fan of
the collective unconscious. I am in pursuit of Jung's publication
through the local library. In the meantime I'm reading PAULI and
JUNG, The Meeting of Two Great Minds by David Lindorff, PhD.

http://www.amazon.com/Pauli-Jung-Meeting-Great-Minds/dp/0835608379/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1249244788sr=1-1

http://tinyurl.com/ly68fq

Excerpt:

Page 29:

Jung wrote, [For Pauli] the word 'soul' was nothing but an
intellectual obscenity, not to be touched with a barge pole.

Needless to say, I'm hooked!

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Mr. Blanton:

 One of the most well-known and examined artifacts is from the crash at
 Ubatuba, Brazil:

 http://ufologie.net/htm/ubatuba57.htm

 The examination of some of the material:

 http://www.nicap.org/ubatubanal.htm

Excerpt:

These tests indicated that the material was very pure magnesium. The
chemist also noted that the normal trace elements expected in
magnesium were all missing.

---

But since we can't crack nuts with it.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-02 Thread Terry Blanton

There are distinct physical aspects common among many experiencers
which are known by investigators but are not shared with the public.
It serves as a test of the experience.  It has to do with the
surroundings seen by the victim and certain events that occur during
the examination.

AFAIK, investigators have yet to disclose all of these aspects; but,
they do point to either a real, physical event or one heck of a cosmic
unconscious sharing experience.

Terry

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 3:43 PM, OrionWorkssvj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote:
 The fact that so many individuals have independently
 reported(experienced) the same classic abduction scenario over and
 over (a scenario that DOES CHANGE depending on one's cultural
 background) strongly suggests to me that we are witnessing a
 fundamental aspect of our psyche as expressed in a form of a highly
 symbolic language of sorts.

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Mr. Blanton,

 There are distinct physical aspects common among many experiencers
 which are known by investigators but are not shared with the public.
 It serves as a test of the experience.  It has to do with the
 surroundings seen by the victim and certain events that occur during
 the examination.

 AFAIK, investigators have yet to disclose all of these aspects; but,
 they do point to either a real, physical event or one heck of a cosmic
 unconscious sharing experience.

It's my understanding that several UFO abduction researchers such as
David Jacobs are tackling this very subject. This is serious work and
I applaud their efforts to compile such information.

I also gather some researchers disapprove of researcher's, like
Jacob's apparent heavy use of hypnotic recall (in the repetitive
sense) to collect their information. For example, Don Schmitt (Roswell
investigator) and others caution that excessive-repetitive use of
hypnotic recall can possibly lead to contamination of the original
details. As Jed Rothwell has every right to bring to our attention,
the process of manufacturing false memories is relatively easy to
administer.

There are several personal thoughts that come to mind when I ponder
the similarities of the shared experience, including certain tags
that for the most part are not yet revealed to the general public:

*) Maybe vast portions of the human race really *are* being abducted,
in the most literal 3-D physical sense that one can think. However,
based on my own conversations and readings, many
abductees/experiencers themselves no longer believe their encounters
are occurring strictly in the physical sense, preferring to describe
their encounters as an interface with a multi-dimensional reality.
From what I can tell more emotionally adjusted and educated the
experiencer seems to be, the more likelihood are the chances that they
WILL both perceive and subsequently interpret their encounters as
occurring within the realms of a vast multi-dimensional environment.
IOW, their experiences are less absolute or lieral in nature.
Needless to say, current scientific investigative skills are
ill-equipped in tackling such multi-dimensional investigations.

*) Maybe we are being treated to a sophisticated symbolic language of
experiential archetypes, as described in my previous fable where I
play around with the premise of an advanced race attempting to
interface with us through the use of rote repetitive imagery.

*) Maybe we are in contact with vase untapped alienated portions of
ourselves that are attempting to reestablish contact with the more
acceptable portions of ourselves. Perhaps such encounters/experiences
also hint as to the incredible depth of our untapped potential as
explored in Carl Jung's research into the collective unconscious.

* Maybe it's a little of all of the above.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-02 Thread Edmund Storms

Steven, it really helps not to have a ready made explanation, such as  
you have, when evaluating the UFO events. Such expected notions cause  
a person to reject data, perhaps subconsciously. For example, you  
would like the phenomenon to involve some kind multi-dimensional  
reality.  You then ignore all physical evidence  showing that the  
events are happening in our dimension exactly like any event that we  
experience in normal life.  For example, objects have been implanted  
during an abduction that were later removed by a doctor. These objects  
are real. Changes have have been found in the retina of the eye when a  
person has been near one of the crafts during landing. Apparently the  
intense microwave radiation causes permanent damage. In fact, this is  
one way the UFO investigators can tell if a person is telling the  
truth.  Women have been found to be pregnant, as verified by a doctor,  
and then are not pregnant for no apparent reason after an abduction.   
Like most of the reported observations, these can be ignored in an  
effort to avoid believing the events are real.  Actually, it does not  
matter what an individual believes about this subject because the  
events will take place regardless of what we believe.  We have no  
control.  Perhaps, it is best to ignore the whole subject and go about  
life without the resulting anxiety.


As for David Jacobs, if you read his books you will learn that many  
people remember the abductions in great detail without need for  
hypnosis. Their memories are very similar to the retrieved memories.   
In fact, Jacobs is very aware of the problems associated with hypnosis  
and takes great pains to avoid them. Raising such issues is like the  
skeptics who question the reality of CF using problems that every  
person in the field understands better than the skeptic and takes  
great pains to avoid.


Ed


On Aug 2, 2009, at 4:46 PM, OrionWorks wrote:


From Mr. Blanton,


There are distinct physical aspects common among many experiencers
which are known by investigators but are not shared with the public.
It serves as a test of the experience.  It has to do with the
surroundings seen by the victim and certain events that occur during
the examination.

AFAIK, investigators have yet to disclose all of these aspects; but,
they do point to either a real, physical event or one heck of a  
cosmic

unconscious sharing experience.


It's my understanding that several UFO abduction researchers such as
David Jacobs are tackling this very subject. This is serious work and
I applaud their efforts to compile such information.

I also gather some researchers disapprove of researcher's, like
Jacob's apparent heavy use of hypnotic recall (in the repetitive
sense) to collect their information. For example, Don Schmitt (Roswell
investigator) and others caution that excessive-repetitive use of
hypnotic recall can possibly lead to contamination of the original
details. As Jed Rothwell has every right to bring to our attention,
the process of manufacturing false memories is relatively easy to
administer.

There are several personal thoughts that come to mind when I ponder
the similarities of the shared experience, including certain tags
that for the most part are not yet revealed to the general public:

*) Maybe vast portions of the human race really *are* being abducted,
in the most literal 3-D physical sense that one can think. However,
based on my own conversations and readings, many
abductees/experiencers themselves no longer believe their encounters
are occurring strictly in the physical sense, preferring to describe
their encounters as an interface with a multi-dimensional reality.
From what I can tell more emotionally adjusted and educated the
experiencer seems to be, the more likelihood are the chances that they
WILL both perceive and subsequently interpret their encounters as
occurring within the realms of a vast multi-dimensional environment.
IOW, their experiences are less absolute or lieral in nature.
Needless to say, current scientific investigative skills are
ill-equipped in tackling such multi-dimensional investigations.

*) Maybe we are being treated to a sophisticated symbolic language of
experiential archetypes, as described in my previous fable where I
play around with the premise of an advanced race attempting to
interface with us through the use of rote repetitive imagery.

*) Maybe we are in contact with vase untapped alienated portions of
ourselves that are attempting to reestablish contact with the more
acceptable portions of ourselves. Perhaps such encounters/experiences
also hint as to the incredible depth of our untapped potential as
explored in Carl Jung's research into the collective unconscious.

* Maybe it's a little of all of the above.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-02 Thread Terry Blanton

Ackshully, it was Budd Hopkins who first was criticized for extensive
use of hypnotic recall, (Witnessed the case of Linda Cortile
(Napolitano)).  But, then again, Dr. John Mack used a similar,
although somewhat far-eastern version of hypnosis.

John, G-d rest his soul, also believed, much like you, that abductions
were not totally physical.  He thought it might be only the spirit
that was abducted.

BTW, I don't have a lot of respect for Schmitt.  Are you aware of his
falling out with Dr. Kevin Randall, his former partner?

Terry

(So, Steven, considering your glint of denial, could you be an
experiencer?  Ever had an event of missing time?  ;-)

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 5:46 PM, OrionWorkssvj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote:

 I also gather some researchers disapprove of researcher's, like
 Jacob's apparent heavy use of hypnotic recall (in the repetitive
 sense) to collect their information.

RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-02 Thread Jeff Fink


Years ago Ripley's Believe it or Not reported that a person went out in
their yard one day and found a small pile of metal pieces all shaped like
the letter E. 
What were they?  
How did they get there? 
Could they be of alien origin?
They offered no answer.

Anybody want to guess?

Think about it.  Then, scroll down for my guess.
































Some kid took a transformer apart and left the pieces lying in the yard.

Jeff

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-02 Thread Edmund Storms



On Aug 2, 2009, at 8:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:


From Mr. Storms


Steven, it really helps not to have a ready made explanation, such as
you have, when evaluating the UFO events. Such expected notions cause
a person to reject data, perhaps subconsciously. For example, you
would like the phenomenon to involve some kind multi-dimensional
reality.  You then ignore all physical evidence  showing that the
events are happening in our dimension exactly like any event that we
experience in normal life.  For example, objects have been implanted
during an abduction that were later removed by a doctor. These  
objects
are real. Changes have have been found in the retina of the eye  
when a

person has been near one of the crafts during landing. Apparently the
intense microwave radiation causes permanent damage. In fact, this is
one way the UFO investigators can tell if a person is telling the
truth.  Women have been found to be pregnant, as verified by a  
doctor,

and then are not pregnant for no apparent reason after an abduction.
Like most of the reported observations, these can be ignored in an
effort to avoid believing the events are real.  Actually, it does not
matter what an individual believes about this subject because the
events will take place regardless of what we believe.  We have no
control.  Perhaps, it is best to ignore the whole subject and go  
about

life without the resulting anxiety.

As for David Jacobs, if you read his books you will learn that many
people remember the abductions in great detail without need for
hypnosis. Their memories are very similar to the retrieved memories.
In fact, Jacobs is very aware of the problems associated with  
hypnosis

and takes great pains to avoid them. Raising such issues is like the
skeptics who question the reality of CF using problems that every
person in the field understands better than the skeptic and takes
great pains to avoid.


Shoot, Ed. I'm not at all denying the possibility that a portion of  
the
population may indeed be involved in classic UFO abduction  
scenarios. I

can only tell you what I have surmised after years of looking into the
phenomenon, after talking to the experiencers I've met myself. FWIW,  
I used
to believe that most of these abductions were indeed happening - in  
the
literal sense. However, after many years of looking into the  
process, I'm

personally no longer as convinced as I used to be of such literal
interpretations. That doesn't make such experiences any less real.  
In fact,
I'm beginning to suspect what may be happening is even more real and/ 
or
significant than attempts to classify such experiences/encounters as  
nothing
more than classic run-of-the-mill UFO abductions conducted by  
aliens. At
present, I just don't have enough information to surmise what  
percentage
could indeed be classified as authentic UFO abductions, versus...  
something

else.


Steven, are you suggesting the something else is imagination or a  
mind probe by the aliens without physical contact?


While we are discussing the pros and cons of this controversial  
issue, why
don't we tackle one of the most smarmy conundrums of them all - the  
alleged
GENETIC component for which the classic UFO abduction scenario seems  
to
partake of time after time, specifically the taking of eggs and  
sperm, of
later being shown hybrids, of later being told that the human- 
parent must

extend love towards these sickly hybrids.


My understanding is that the aliens were genetically designed for  
space travel and are not suited to endure on this planet for any  
length of time. To solve this problem, they are redesigning themselves  
to be more suited to work here.  This is a slow process that has been  
ongoing for centuries. Unlike the science fiction stories, they do not  
plan to take over, but instead to gradually improve the human DNA.   
God knows, we need such an improvement.  As Chris observed, we humans  
cannot survive much longer without being telepathic .  While this  
trait is a recessive talent in humans, the aliens have mastered this  
skill. Hopefully, they will gradually add this feature to our DNA.


Biologically speaking, what are the chances that totally
alien-to-planet-Earth creatures would even posses DNA? And even if  
by some
miracle it turns out that they DO have such complex molecules that  
such

molecules are being used for the same purpose (propagation of genetic
heritage, etc...) what are the chances that their DNA would be so
conveniently configured that it could be conceivable that we could  
splice

ours with theirs.


Carbon based life has to be the most common form because only such  
compounds have enough variety to allow all kinds of environments to be  
tolerated.  I would not expect alien DNA would match ours, but it  
would be close enough to be a templet.  Once an understanding of DNA  
is mastered, all kinds of variations can be made, as we humans are  
discovering.  It just takes

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Jed Rothwell

OrionWorks wrote:

I'm under the impression that you have not looked into this subject to
 any great extent.


That is correct. That's why I asked how many pilots have reported anomalies.


. . . your comments about the reliability of the pilots you've known seems
 uncharacteristically anecdotal.


It is completely anecdotal and not to be taken seriously. However, I have
met quite a number of weirdo pilots, with very odd beliefs, especially ones
who resemble Gen. Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove. So there are at least
some you should not trust. It wouldn't take many to introduce a little noise
in the data set, with one or two reports per year.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Terry Blanton

Or that what we observe is a three dimensional intersection of a
multi-dimensional object.  Flatworlders would observe a growing and
shrinking circle as a sphere passed through their reality.

Terry

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:35 PM, OrionWorkssvj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote:

 Reminds me of another concept, where it is conjectured that UFOs are
 not actually physically present. What we are actually witnessing is an
 observer peeping into our reality from somewhere else.

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Jed:

 OrionWorks wrote:

 I'm under the impression that you have not looked into this subject to
 any great extent.

 That is correct. That's why I asked how many pilots have reported anomalies.


 . . . your comments about the reliability of the pilots you've known seems
 uncharacteristically anecdotal.

 It is completely anecdotal and not to be taken seriously. However, I have
 met quite a number of weirdo pilots, with very odd beliefs, especially ones
 who resemble Gen. Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove. So there are at least
 some you should not trust. It wouldn't take many to introduce a little noise
 in the data set, with one or two reports per year.

I wished I had had the chance to have been introduced to your mother.
I think I would have learned a lot listening to her and subsequently
discussing the subtleties of various perceptions.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Chris Zell

Allow me to point out that some of these incidents wherein people went 
apeshit with delusions  had a basis in fact.  In Europe and possibly in the 
Witch trials in early America, Huntington's disease was undiagnosed:
 
http://curehd.blogspot.com/2008/08/roots-of-our-stigma.html
 
As for other delusions,  I would point out that even Carl Sagan felt that 
childhood evidence of reincarnation needed to be investigated, rather than 
written off.  There is a huge body of work on this via Stevenson ( Old Souls).
 
If eyewitness testimony is given decisive weight in some circumstances, then it 
should be a simple matter to find cases that repeat those conditions and end 
this nonsense about extraordinary claims needing extraordinary proof.  Such 
logic suggests that there is no such thing as proof in the first place and 
beyond that,  keeps moving the goalposts whenever infidels find it convenient 
to do so.

RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Jeff Fink

Could we all consider the possibility that the sightings and abductions
reported over the years were experienced in a manner that bypassed the five
senses and were sent directly to a person's brain by entities that cannot
effectively manipulate matter and energy but operate outside the real
world.  That would explain why we have no authentic UFO artifacts.  Somebody
is trying very hard to make us think there are real aliens in our universe,
when perhaps there are none.  They have a purpose, and it is important to
them that the human race believes in space aliens.  They wouldn't have to do
this if there actually were some.  Maybe the universe to this point really
is an awful waste of space.

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: OrionWorks [mailto:svj.orionwo...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:05 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Jed:

 OrionWorks wrote:

 I'm under the impression that you have not looked into this subject to
 any great extent.

 That is correct. That's why I asked how many pilots have reported
anomalies.


 . . . your comments about the reliability of the pilots you've known
seems
 uncharacteristically anecdotal.

 It is completely anecdotal and not to be taken seriously. However, I have
 met quite a number of weirdo pilots, with very odd beliefs, especially
ones
 who resemble Gen. Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove. So there are at least
 some you should not trust. It wouldn't take many to introduce a little
noise
 in the data set, with one or two reports per year.

I wished I had had the chance to have been introduced to your mother.
I think I would have learned a lot listening to her and subsequently
discussing the subtleties of various perceptions.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Edmund Storms

But Jeff, artifacts do exist. They have been seen by people and  
described in detail. Granted, you are not allowed to see them, but is  
that required for you to believe?  In addition, the abductees describe  
conditions in the space crafts and instruments used for examination  
that are in many cases identical even though this information is not  
generally known and the various abductees never talked to each other.   
In addition, physical evidence in the form of changes in soil  
properties and indentations where the craft landed have been described  
in detail. Although the aliens are well ahead of us in science, we do  
not need to explain their existence by using excessive imagination, as  
I think you have done.


As for the universe being empty of life except ours, this is simply  
not a rational possibility.  The earth is a late comer to the  
universe. We should expect life that formed on older planets than ours  
to be more advanced.


Ed


On Aug 1, 2009, at 9:41 AM, Jeff Fink wrote:

Could we all consider the possibility that the sightings and  
abductions
reported over the years were experienced in a manner that bypassed  
the five
senses and were sent directly to a person's brain by entities that  
cannot
effectively manipulate matter and energy but operate outside the  
real
world.  That would explain why we have no authentic UFO artifacts.   
Somebody
is trying very hard to make us think there are real aliens in our  
universe,
when perhaps there are none.  They have a purpose, and it is  
important to
them that the human race believes in space aliens.  They wouldn't  
have to do
this if there actually were some.  Maybe the universe to this point  
really

is an awful waste of space.

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: OrionWorks [mailto:svj.orionwo...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:05 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Jed:


OrionWorks wrote:

I'm under the impression that you have not looked into this  
subject to

any great extent.


That is correct. That's why I asked how many pilots have reported

anomalies.




. . . your comments about the reliability of the pilots you've known

seems

uncharacteristically anecdotal.


It is completely anecdotal and not to be taken seriously. However,  
I have
met quite a number of weirdo pilots, with very odd beliefs,  
especially

ones
who resemble Gen. Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove. So there are  
at least
some you should not trust. It wouldn't take many to introduce a  
little

noise

in the data set, with one or two reports per year.


I wished I had had the chance to have been introduced to your mother.
I think I would have learned a lot listening to her and subsequently
discussing the subtleties of various perceptions.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Chris Zell

There is an interesting book called The Science of Extraterrestrials by Eric 
Julien. It goes with the temporal bubble idea.
 
There's a notion I have about weird phenomena that I avoided discussing because 
it is so difficult to articulate.  It concerns reductionism.  By its very 
nature, science is reductionistic.  Events have causes. And those causes have 
smaller causes.  Eventually, you hit bottom, at the quantum level, wherein all 
phenomena becomes arbitrary, uncaused.  There is no further explanation or 
reductionism after that, other than statistical observation.
 
We commonly assume that this it just is (Astrophysicist Victor Mansfield) 
phenomena is limited to the murky quantum realm but is it really?  Emergence 
tells us that some complex things seem to be lacking a set of causes that lead 
directly to their full explanation.  
 
I read that Celera failed to manifest that a blueprint for a human exists 
within our genome. Instead they referred to guideposts.  I tried to ask a 
Biology PhD about this and she became uncomfortable about it and quickly left.
 
I don't understand how the whole of medicine can rest on the assumption that 
simple diffusion can get extremely small doses of medicine to the proper 
receptors. Like DNA telekinesis?
 
In short,  it may send chills up the spines of many academics to say so but one 
day,  the bill for Promissary Materialism is going to come due for payment in 
full.  When that happens ghosts,  reincarnation, UFOs, poltergeists and heaven 
knows what else may look very different.  Perhaps they just are.

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm



Edmund Storms wrote:
 But Jeff, artifacts do exist. They have been seen by people and
 described in detail. Granted, you are not allowed to see them, but is
 that required ...

Of course, in the realm of science, actually seeing something is not
necessary to believe in it.  However, in general, we must know that, in
principle, we *could* see it -- that *possibility* is extremely
important; I might even say *necessary*.  For example, I have never seen
the MM experiment performed, and never expect to; it's a rather delicate
experiment which requires specialized apparatus.  However, the knowledge
that I *could* do so is vitally important in believing that it's not
just a hoax by people trying to support Einstein.

Here, let me make this more concrete:  I have a perpetual motion machine
in my basement.  I can describe what it does, and how wonderfully it
works.  I'll explain to you how I've tied it into my house wiring, and
how I no longer have to pay anything for my electricity.  But, you are
not allowed to see the machine -- I will not let you, even if you ask;
even if you fly out here, you will not be allowed to see it!  Will you
believe me, though, that it really does exist?

By the same token, alien artifacts which have been described in detail
but which we, the common folk who are not in the inner circle, are not
allowed to see are not convincing of *anything*.

RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Jeff Fink

-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 12:00 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

But Jeff, artifacts do exist. They have been seen by people and  
described in detail. Granted, you are not allowed to see them, but is  
that required for you to believe?

That would really help

  In addition, the abductees describe  
conditions in the space crafts and instruments used for examination  
that are in many cases identical even though this information is not  
generally known and the various abductees never talked to each other.

Of course, it would be simple to plant coordinated visions in multiple
people. It would be the most effective strategy they have to gain believers.

In addition, physical evidence in the form of changes in soil  
properties and indentations where the craft landed have been described  
in detail. Although the aliens are well ahead of us in science, we do  
not need to explain their existence by using excessive imagination, as  
I think you have done.

As for the universe being empty of life except ours, this is simply  
not a rational possibility.  The earth is a late comer to the  
universe. We should expect life that formed on older planets than ours  
to be more advanced.

Then why are we not being contacted by real aliens?

Jeff

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Edmund Storms

Of course your point is good, Steven.  If the hidden artifacts were  
the only evidence, believing the UFO claims would be impossible.  But,  
let's use you example.  Suppose people could drive up to your house  
and see that the lights are on but you are not hooked to the grid or  
to any other obvious source of energy. Suppose a few respected people  
gain entry and report that they saw a strange machine in your basement  
that seem to be providing energy for your house.  Suppose over the  
years, thousands of people report the same observations even though  
their experiences are totally independent.  Would you then expect  
people to believe you had a perpetual motion machine?


I suggest people believe correctly many things about which they have  
no personal knowledge and such knowledge is impossible to obtain.  For  
example, do you believe humans went to the Moon? All of the evidence   
on which you base your belief is either obtained by accepting the  
experience of others or from photographs that can be easily faked.   
Even the rocks and returned space craft, which you can see in museums,  
can be fake.  You have to take the word of honest and respected people  
that the event actually happened.  An identical problem applies to the  
UFO claims.


Ed



On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:




Edmund Storms wrote:

But Jeff, artifacts do exist. They have been seen by people and
described in detail. Granted, you are not allowed to see them, but is
that required ...


Of course, in the realm of science, actually seeing something is not
necessary to believe in it.  However, in general, we must know that,  
in

principle, we *could* see it -- that *possibility* is extremely
important; I might even say *necessary*.  For example, I have never  
seen
the MM experiment performed, and never expect to; it's a rather  
delicate
experiment which requires specialized apparatus.  However, the  
knowledge

that I *could* do so is vitally important in believing that it's not
just a hoax by people trying to support Einstein.

Here, let me make this more concrete:  I have a perpetual motion  
machine

in my basement.  I can describe what it does, and how wonderfully it
works.  I'll explain to you how I've tied it into my house wiring, and
how I no longer have to pay anything for my electricity.  But, you are
not allowed to see the machine -- I will not let you, even if you ask;
even if you fly out here, you will not be allowed to see it!  Will you
believe me, though, that it really does exist?

By the same token, alien artifacts which have been described in detail
but which we, the common folk who are not in the inner circle, are  
not

allowed to see are not convincing of *anything*.

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm



Chris Zell wrote:

 I don't understand how the whole of medicine can rest on the assumption
 that simple diffusion can get extremely small doses of medicine to the
 proper receptors. Like DNA telekinesis?

I guess you've never been involved with setting doses through titration,
then.  It's not generally a fun thing to do but it does clarify the
process enormously.

The blood gets stirred very thoroughly in the course of going around the
loop.  Titrating the dose is adding enough medicine to the body to get
the blood concentration to the desired value, with frequent blood
samples drawn in order to measure said concentration.  The blood
concentration is directly tied to the concentration at the site where
the medicine is needed, and in general medicines act in a way that's
broadly similar to what they do to individual cells in vitro when the in
vitro concentration is in the same ballbark as the blood level used in
treatment.

You may be aware that doses in medical literature are typically quoted
not as total mg needed for the effect but are, rather, quoted as mg
per kg needed for the effect. If you weigh 100 kg you need twice the
dose of someone who weighs 50 kg.  The daily dose of phenobarb needed
for a 2 pound rabbit with epilepsy is not the same as the dose needed
for a 60 kg human with epilepsy (and titrating the dose in such a case
is very rough on everyone involved).  In short, your *whole* *body* gets
dosed up to the necessary level, not just the proper receptors.  God
is not doing the driving to see that the medicine goes to the right
place -- in fact, *nobody* is doing the driving, and the medicine goes
all over the place, hitting every cell in your body which is directly
tied to your circulatory system (brain cells and corneal cells are two
notable cases of cells which are not tied directly to the blood
circulatory system).

Most medicines have a wide enough useful range of activity that one can
just go by general dose guidelines without precise dose titration (or
one can boost the dose until the desired result is observed, which is,
of course, a very crude form of titration).  Medicines with nasty side
effects at slight overdose are the common exception to this.

Most things that do stuff to cells are poisons rather than medicines
because they don't exhibit their activity at a concentration which is
low enough that we can tolerate that concentration throughout our whole
body.

In cases where the blood stream doesn't go where we need the medicine,
such as tumors with poor circulation within, or with things which must
affect the brain, or with infections which have become 'walled off',
well, the medicine typically doesn't work.  One either finds a medicine
which somehow gets past the barrier, or one doesn't, and in the latter
case one lives with the disease, waits for the immune system to take
care of it, or one dies.

There is no magic in how medicine gets to the proper receptors.  And
life doesn't make entropy decrease, and the body doesn't suddenly lose
an ounce or two at the moment of death, and ... ça suffit.

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Edmund Storms



On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Jeff Fink wrote:




-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 12:00 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

But Jeff, artifacts do exist. They have been seen by people and
described in detail. Granted, you are not allowed to see them, but is
that required for you to believe?


That would really help


 In addition, the abductees describe
conditions in the space crafts and instruments used for examination
that are in many cases identical even though this information is not
generally known and the various abductees never talked to each other.


Of course, it would be simple to plant coordinated visions in multiple
people. It would be the most effective strategy they have to gain  
believers.


Who is doing this planting of coordinated vision? Who wants us to  
believe in aliens? The government is doing everything it can to kill  
this belief.



In addition, physical evidence in the form of changes in soil
properties and indentations where the craft landed have been described
in detail. Although the aliens are well ahead of us in science, we do
not need to explain their existence by using excessive imagination, as
I think you have done.

As for the universe being empty of life except ours, this is simply
not a rational possibility.  The earth is a late comer to the
universe. We should expect life that formed on older planets than ours
to be more advanced.


Then why are we not being contacted by real aliens?


This is a strange circular question.  The UFO experience and the crop  
circles show that we are being contacted.  But you reject this  
evidence and you wonder why the evidence is not of a kind you would  
accept.


 Frankly, if I were an alien visitor, I would not want the natives,  
especially the crazy ones, to be certain of my existence. I would try  
to keep the natives confused while I went about my business in plain  
sight.


Ed


Jeff

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm



Edmund Storms wrote:
 Of course your point is good, Steven.  If the hidden artifacts were the
 only evidence, believing the UFO claims would be impossible.  But, let's
 use you example.  Suppose people could drive up to your house and see
 that the lights are on but you are not hooked to the grid or to any
 other obvious source of energy.

Oh, but I am hooked to the grid.

I just don't actually draw any power from it.

But of course I won't let you see my utility bills; you'll just have to
take my word for it.


 Suppose a few respected people gain
 entry and report that they saw a strange machine in your basement that
 seem to be providing energy for your house.  Suppose over the years,
 thousands of people report the same observations even though their
 experiences are totally independent.

Are you saying thousands of respected scientists have studied the UFO
artifacts and published their conclusions?

That would certainly be interesting.  What peer reviewed journals have
published their conclusions?


  Would you then expect people to
 believe you had a perpetual motion machine?
 
 I suggest people believe correctly many things about which they have no
 personal knowledge and such knowledge is impossible to obtain.  For
 example, do you believe humans went to the Moon?

Different situation.  The lunar landings were a historical event, which
by definition we can't observe directly; consequently all the evidence
is at least somewhat indirect. And as far as I know, I, or qualified
people who are otherwise no different from me, actually do have access
to all relevant evidence regarding those historical events.  If the
Hasselblad slides from the missions were kept under wraps, marked top
secret, and only a few insiders had ever seen them, and all
outsiders had to be content with descriptions of the slides along with
prints of just two or three selected frames, then the situation might be
analogous -- but in fact qualified scientists who have reason to look at
the original film are able to do so, and there are high quality scans of
all the slides available for all the rest of us.

It's when the evidence is direct and currently exists, but we are *not*
*allowed* *access*, that one immediately must question whether the
evidence actually exists.  The claim of artifacts which aren't available
for examination by any interested scientist is actually not neutral: It
is evidence *against*, not *for*, because it seems to conform to a
common pattern exhibited by human liars.

Here's a better analogy:  The WTC collapsed and the evidence of what
made it fall was presumably right there, on the ground, for all to see.
 But the Government ran an extremely efficient cleanup effort, and
disposed of the debris, retaining little or none for further
examination, thus making it impossible for all but the few people who
got samples before it all vanished to study it.  Like the secret UFO
artifacts, this makes the situation seem suspicious -- it is evidence
that something is not right.  It is not proof, of course, and neither is
the hidden nature of the UFO artifacts.



 All of the evidence  on
 which you base your belief is either obtained by accepting the
 experience of others or from photographs that can be easily faked.

Wrong.  I've studied the photographs. With technology available in that
era, it would have been hard as all get out to fake the photographic
evidence.  :-)

The reflections in the helmets of the astronauts, alone, would have been
an absolute nightmare to get right, and since at that time nobody had
the technology to really study them and see that the reflections were
correct, there wasn't any reason to invest that kind of effort in it.
Yet, the reflections were there, on the slides, and they remained there,
lying fallow, for over 30 years before somebody, using some heavy
computer technology which was less than a dream when Apollo took off,
analyzed them and found that they are *correct*.

So, no, the photo evidence could not have been easily faked, and the
records which say that those slides really do date from that era would
be equally hard to fake, requiring as it would a conspiracy of thousands
coupled with very carefully timed swapping in of modern fakes to replace
the old film, while carefully not disturbing any of the visible details
on images which were previously published.


  Even
 the rocks and returned space craft, which you can see in museums, can be
 fake.  You have to take the word of honest and respected people that the
 event actually happened.  An identical problem applies to the UFO claims.
 
 Ed
 
 
 
 On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
 


 Edmund Storms wrote:
 But Jeff, artifacts do exist. They have been seen by people and
 described in detail. Granted, you are not allowed to see them, but is
 that required ...

 Of course, in the realm of science, actually seeing something is not
 necessary to believe in it.  However, in general, we must know that, in

RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Jeff Fink

-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 1:58 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Jeff Fink wrote:

 -Original Message-
 From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
 Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 12:00 PM
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Cc: Edmund Storms
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

 But Jeff, artifacts do exist. They have been seen by people and
 described in detail. Granted, you are not allowed to see them, but is
 that required for you to believe?

 That would really help

  In addition, the abductees describe
 conditions in the space crafts and instruments used for examination
 that are in many cases identical even though this information is not
 generally known and the various abductees never talked to each other.

 Of course, it would be simple to plant coordinated visions in multiple
 people. It would be the most effective strategy they have to gain  
 believers.

Who is doing this planting of coordinated vision? Who wants us to  
believe in aliens? 

You and most people on this list are not going to like my answer to this.
Demons (evil spirits) and their hosts are intending to masquerade as
benevolent aliens in the near future.  The victims thus far are not the
hosts but pawns.

The government is doing everything it can to kill  
this belief.  

 In addition, physical evidence in the form of changes in soil
 properties and indentations where the craft landed have been described
 in detail. Although the aliens are well ahead of us in science, we do
 not need to explain their existence by using excessive imagination, as
 I think you have done.

 As for the universe being empty of life except ours, this is simply
 not a rational possibility.  The earth is a late comer to the
 universe. We should expect life that formed on older planets than ours
 to be more advanced.

 Then why are we not being contacted by real aliens?

This is a strange circular question.  The UFO experience and the crop  
circles show that we are being contacted.  But you reject this  
evidence and you wonder why the evidence is not of a kind you would  
accept.

Crop circles!  Some alien is going to come all the way to earth to dazzle us
with crop circles!
The guys who started crop circles fessed up and showed the world how they
did it, the types of simple tools required, and then did demo circles before
the camera as proof.  It was amazing how fast they were able to produce
complex patterns.

  Frankly, if I were an alien visitor, I would not want the natives,  
especially the crazy ones, to be certain of my existence. I would try  
to keep the natives confused while I went about my business in plain  
sight.

Ed

 Jeff

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-08-01 Thread Chris Zell

As to titration and medicine, you don't understand what I mean.  A long time 
ago, Bill Beaty commented on this problem - and the recent report on DNA 
segments 'just knowing where to go'  illustrates the issue.
 
You have positive and negative charges, attraction and repulsion and this is 
nowhere even close to explaining how the right chemicals get attached to the 
right receptors amidst thousands or millions equally equipped with a willing 
charge. 
Sure, biochemistry exists - but a big mystery exists at its heart.

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Mr. Fink

...

 Then why are we not being contacted by real aliens?

The Conundrum brought to our attention by Jeff in a sense goes to the
heart of what I've tried to explore in my hypothesis.

We have a problem agreeing on what is real. If we cannot agree on what
is real it is unlikely that we are ever going to get a better grip on
what constitutes an authentic alien... whatever that might be.

The fact that there is so much disagreement on what is real is not
anybody's fault. It's part of the process we go through as we continue
exploring our environment and ourselves.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Mr. Zell

 In short,  it may send chills up the spines of many academics to
 say so but one day,  the bill for Promissary Materialism is going
 to come due for payment in full.  When that happens ghosts,
 reincarnation, UFOs, poltergeists and heaven knows what else may
 look very different.  Perhaps they just are.

Chris, on more than one occasion I have enjoyed what I consider to be
astute pot shots.

Dogs and cats living together!

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Mr. Lawrence:

...

 Here, let me make this more concrete:  I have a perpetual motion
 machine in my basement.  I can describe what it does, and how
 wonderfully it works.  I'll explain to you how I've tied it into
 my house wiring, and how I no longer have to pay anything for my
 electricity.  But, you are not allowed to see the machine -- I
 will not let you, even if you ask; even if you fly out here, you
 will not be allowed to see it!  Will you believe me, though, that
 it really does exist?

Can I get one installed in my basement...secretly? ;-)

 By the same token, alien artifacts which have been described in detail
 but which we, the common folk who are not in the inner circle, are not
 allowed to see are not convincing of *anything*.

I realize I risk sounding like an annoying broken record, but can we
agree on what constitutes an authentic alien artifact? What makes it
alien? Elements are elements across the universe...presumably so.

There is a story, an advertisement (I think it came from IBM) that
described how a 3rd world tribe found an appropriate use for one of
their expedition's laptops - a nutcracker. At least it proved the
artifact was constructed well.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Mr. Storms:

...

 Who is doing this planting of coordinated vision? Who wants us to
 believe in aliens? The government is doing everything it can to kill
 this belief.

Just some idle off-the-wall speculation follows...a fable of sorts:

Once upon a time there existed a civilization millions of years more
advanced than the human race. In their vast travels it was inevitable
that they would eventually come across our planet, the one filled with
homo sapiens and a few sentient aquatic species. They noticed that the
sentient land animals seemed to spend a lot of time scurrying about on
the surface as they went about the businesses of going here to there.
They also noticed that these creatures didn't seem to be taking very
good care of their planet, and oh, how they often seemed to argue
amongst each other.

They pondered these issues for a millennium or two, or perhaps it was
for only a couple of microseconds - time can be such an ephemeral
state of mind. Eventually they decided that it would be a nice
friendly gesture if they left them a few suggestions before they went
on their way. After all, they themselves had been around for a few
million years, and as such, they had acquired a few useful pointers,
as well as a few bloopers.

But how should they go about introducing themselves? And what would
they say? They certainly didn't want to come off as too pushy. From
past experience they knew it was best to let children play with
minimal parental supervision.

They pondered how these creatures seemed to perceive the concept of
advanced civilizations, and how such advanced civilizations would
likely communicate with them. They accumulated a lot iconic visions
which seemed to gravitate around the concept of space ships and little
spindly creatures with large heads. After all, advanced races would
HAVE to have undeveloped bodies (lack of physical use) but large heads
in order to contain large super-advanced brains, an absolute
prerequisite if one is going to go about traveling vast distances
across the universe.

OK, they thought. We can do that.

Now, what should we talk about? And while we're at it, let's make
sure our messages are consistent. From past experience we know how
easy it is to misinterpret what we're trying to suggest. We don't want
to confuse them! As we all know, children seem to benefit the most
through rote repetition.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

From Mr. Fink:

...

 You and most people on this list are not going to like my answer to
 this. Demons (evil spirits) and their hosts are intending to masquerade
 as benevolent aliens in the near future.  The victims thus far are not
 the hosts but pawns.

A brief epilogue to my previous off-the-wall fable:

Several hundred thousand years later, the remnants of Homo Sapiens
managed to finally unravel a curious message fragment which was
suspected to have been the result of a mysterious contact logged in
the race's ancient past. While there remains considerable debate
concerning the concept of who we might mean, the most favored
translation of the message went as follows:

Well... [we] gave it our best shot. Nobody bat's a hundred!

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm



OrionWorks wrote:
From Mr. Lawrence:
 
 ...
 
 Here, let me make this more concrete:  I have a perpetual motion
 machine in my basement.  I can describe what it does, and how
 wonderfully it works.  I'll explain to you how I've tied it into
 my house wiring, and how I no longer have to pay anything for my
 electricity.  But, you are not allowed to see the machine -- I
 will not let you, even if you ask; even if you fly out here, you
 will not be allowed to see it!  Will you believe me, though, that
 it really does exist?
 
 Can I get one installed in my basement...secretly? ;-)
 
 By the same token, alien artifacts which have been described in detail
 but which we, the common folk who are not in the inner circle, are not
 allowed to see are not convincing of *anything*.
 
 I realize I risk sounding like an annoying broken record, but can we
 agree on what constitutes an authentic alien artifact?

You don't sound like an annoying broken record.  To be blunt, you sound
silly, asking that.  I don't think there's any disagreement at all over
what would constitute an authentic alien artifact -- it would be a
piece of litter left by an authentic alien, and an authentic alien is a
non-earth creature.  An *authentic* non-imaginary real-type actually
existing non-earth creature who can potentially drive a flying saucer
around and maybe crash it on the White House lawn.

PLEASE don't start denying that words which have perfectly clear
definitions can be defined!  If *you* want to go off and use the word
alien to mean something entirely different, go ahead, but please stick
to the usual dictionary definition when attempting to hold conversations
with others in which information will be successfully transferred
through use of words:

 alien n 3: a form of life assumed to exist outside the Earth or its
 atmosphere [syn: extraterrestrial being]

(from Wordnet -- there are a number of definitions of 'alien' but I
don't think anyone here was intending the word to mean, e.g., a
foreigner.)

The debate is over the question of whether there are any aliens within 2
lightyears of the Sun, and whether there have been any of them flying
around dropping bits of random cruft on Earth any time in the last few
decades.  The debate is *NOT* over whether the cruft dropped by an alien
should be called an artifact or not, nor over whether a creature from
another planet driving around Earth in a flying machine should be called
an alien.



 What makes it
 alien? Elements are elements across the universe...presumably so.
 
 There is a story, an advertisement (I think it came from IBM) that
 described how a 3rd world tribe found an appropriate use for one of
 their expedition's laptops - a nutcracker. At least it proved the
 artifact was constructed well.
 
 Regards
 Steven Vincent Johnson
 www.OrionWorks.com
 www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm



OrionWorks wrote:
From Mr. Storms:
 
 ...
 
 Who is doing this planting of coordinated vision? Who wants us to
 believe in aliens? The government is doing everything it can to kill
 this belief.
 
 Just some idle off-the-wall speculation follows...a fable of sorts:
 
 Once upon a time there existed a civilization millions of years more
 advanced than the human race. In their vast travels it was inevitable
 that they would eventually come across our planet, the one filled with
 homo sapiens and a few sentient aquatic species. They noticed that the
 sentient land animals seemed to spend a lot of time scurrying about on
 the surface as they went about the businesses of going here to there.
 They also noticed that these creatures didn't seem to be taking very
 good care of their planet, and oh, how they often seemed to argue
 amongst each other.
 
 They pondered these issues for a millennium or two, or perhaps it was
 for only a couple of microseconds - time can be such an ephemeral
 state of mind. 

If you're going to use English to communicate with others, please use
the words to mean what we all agree that they mean.

time is not a state of mind.  time is what a clock reads, and
elapsed time is the time recorded by a clock between two events.  In any
particular reference frame, the time between two events can be a
millennium or it can be a microsecond but it can't be both, and the
elapsed time between those events is most certainly not an ephemeral
state of mind.  An ephemeral state of mind is something quite different.

Similarly, a tomato is not an alien cab driver, and a horse is not a
flying saucer.

A country mile is not an hour.

A minute is not euphoria.  Euphoria is a state of mind, it's not a
measure of time.  A sad feeling after breakfast is not a month.  A sad
feeling is a state of mind, not a measure of time, while a month is a
measure of time, not a state of mind.

And a letter in which you mix up a state of mind with an elapsed time is
not a serious attempt at communication, IMNSHO.

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-07-31 Thread Chris Zell

As to hallucinations,  there have been a number of people since the '60's who 
function very well in responsible jobs despite having them.  You may not hear 
much about them since the problem can be an embarrassment.  They quickly 
understand to ignore walls moving as if breathing or rainbow colored rain in a 
clear sky.  
 
If you encounter a potential hallucination, quickly ask yourself some 
bandwidth questions: Can I feel it? smell it?  hear it?  and so on.  The more 
senses are involved, the less able the brain is able to simulate reality.  
 
It is strange that I do not perceive continuous panic or intense advocacy or 
depressive paralysis from many skeptics as to UFO and related phenomena.  If 
eyewitness information is to be ignored so completely and written off as 
unreliable, then much of our legal system is worthless and little better than 
selecting individuals for punishment randomly ( which worked well for Stalin).
 
Likewise, many of the most dramatic encounters come from airline pilots or law 
enforcement officers or those charged with defense of our nation - even those 
who literally have their finger on the button of nuclear missiles.  If they 
are all lying or hallucinating, I wonder why some skeptics even bother with any 
hope, investment or child rearing in an environment in which we depend for our 
lives on such people.  I hope you enjoyed flying with us.   More than that, 
these people are often the most competently trained, experienced and vetted as 
to accurate observation relative to the general population.
 
There is a 'law of unintended effects that needs attention in our collective 
opinions about science and reality.  Anything taken to an extreme can cause a 
result that is the opposite of what was intended --- and I believe that the 
persistent denial of UFOs and related psychic phenomena is now encouraging an 
anti-science public outlook - contrary to what skeptics think.  If you keep 
encountering opinions that would classify you as a fool, you may stop listening 
altogether.  
 
Reality , as a concept, seems to be drifting away from common sense into a 
rarified ivory tower world of merely what some approved scientists say it is 
- and that approved can mean no foreigners allowed, also!  ( Are results from 
Russian or Japanese scientists really given the same credibility?  Italians?  
How about Mexican officials?)
 
Let's add medicine to the denial destruction of scientific reality:  So, 
marijuana has no medical uses according to the Federal government ( two days 
ago).  Really?  Are people expected to deny the evidence of their own bodies 
direct experience?  They don't actually feel good because the government says 
otherwise?  Is this a brick apartment building held together by mass hypnosis, 
a la Monty Python?
 
Do I need a computer and range finders to guide me across a street busy with 
traffic?  Or can I take my life in my hands and use intuition to cross like 
everybody else?
 
There isn't a day that passes that I don't witness the abuse of what is termed 
science by authorities and cold fusion has been but one example.  I really fear 
we may evolve into a situation in which the investigation of ANY subtle or 
intermitent anomaly becomes impossible because of spin, bias,  
pseudo-skepticism,  superficial debunking or elegant theories that act as a 
permanent barrier to the discovery of truth.

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-07-31 Thread Edmund Storms

Good arguments, Chris.  However, I find the human mind typically  
resists ideas that are too far from personal experience.  We can't do  
anything about this resistance in a general way.  We can only work to  
overcome this genetic limitation in ourselves and learn to avoid  
people who cannot go beyond their small world view.


Ed


On Jul 31, 2009, at 3:03 PM, Chris Zell wrote:

As to hallucinations,  there have been a number of people since the  
'60's who function very well in responsible jobs despite having  
them.  You may not hear much about them since the problem can be an  
embarrassment.  They quickly understand to ignore walls moving as if  
breathing or rainbow colored rain in a clear sky.


If you encounter a potential hallucination, quickly ask yourself  
some bandwidth questions: Can I feel it? smell it?  hear it?  and  
so on.  The more senses are involved, the less able the brain is  
able to simulate reality.


It is strange that I do not perceive continuous panic or intense  
advocacy or depressive paralysis from many skeptics as to UFO and  
related phenomena.  If eyewitness information is to be ignored so  
completely and written off as unreliable, then much of our legal  
system is worthless and little better than selecting individuals for  
punishment randomly ( which worked well for Stalin).


Likewise, many of the most dramatic encounters come from airline  
pilots or law enforcement officers or those charged with defense of  
our nation - even those who literally have their finger on the  
button of nuclear missiles.  If they are all lying or  
hallucinating, I wonder why some skeptics even bother with any hope,  
investment or child rearing in an environment in which we depend for  
our lives on such people.  I hope you enjoyed flying with us.
More than that, these people are often the most competently trained,  
experienced and vetted as to accurate observation relative to the  
general population.


There is a 'law of unintended effects that needs attention in our  
collective opinions about science and reality.  Anything taken to an  
extreme can cause a result that is the opposite of what was intended  
--- and I believe that the persistent denial of UFOs and related  
psychic phenomena is now encouraging an anti-science public outlook  
- contrary to what skeptics think.  If you keep encountering  
opinions that would classify you as a fool, you may stop listening  
altogether.


Reality , as a concept, seems to be drifting away from common sense  
into a rarified ivory tower world of merely what some approved  
scientists say it is - and that approved can mean no foreigners  
allowed, also!  ( Are results from Russian or Japanese scientists  
really given the same credibility?  Italians?  How about Mexican  
officials?)


Let's add medicine to the denial destruction of scientific reality:   
So, marijuana has no medical uses according to the Federal  
government ( two days ago).  Really?  Are people expected to deny  
the evidence of their own bodies direct experience?  They don't  
actually feel good because the government says otherwise?  Is this a  
brick apartment building held together by mass hypnosis, a la Monty  
Python?


Do I need a computer and range finders to guide me across a street  
busy with traffic?  Or can I take my life in my hands and use  
intuition to cross like everybody else?


There isn't a day that passes that I don't witness the abuse of what  
is termed science by authorities and cold fusion has been but one  
example.  I really fear we may evolve into a situation in which the  
investigation of ANY subtle or intermitent anomaly becomes  
impossible because of spin, bias,  pseudo-skepticism,  superficial  
debunking or elegant theories that act as a permanent barrier to  
the discovery of truth.

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

2009-07-31 Thread Jed Rothwell


Chris Zell wrote:

As to hallucinations,  there have been a number of people since the 
'60's who function very well in responsible jobs despite having them.


People who understand what hallucinations are, and who have been 
warned to expect them, may not be fooled. People not expecting them, 
or people suffering from hallucinations or voices from mental disease 
may well be convinced that they are real. More to the point with 
regard to UFOs (assuming they are imaginary), society-wide manias and 
hallucinations have been common throughout history, and there is no 
reason to think their number is reduced today in modern U.S. society.


People are unaware of the extent to which societies as a whole have 
gone ape-shit in the past. In the European witch-hunt manias of 14th 
and 15th centuries, approximately 50,000 to 100,000 women were 
tortured and burned at the stake. That's a lot of people given the 
population at the time; it is not far from the proportion of modern 
ethnic cleansing in which millions are killed. In some towns most 
of the unmarried or elderly women were killed. This was partly done 
to steal their property, but mainly because of people sincerely 
believed in witchcraft, and there were plenty of witnesses.


If hundreds of thousands of modern people suffer from the sincere 
delusion that they have seen UFOs or been abducted, that would not be 
the least bit surprising, considering how many people honestly 
believe that they are actually Jesus Christ or some other religious 
figure, or animals, aliens, movie stars, reincarnated, or famous 
people such as (in the old days) Napoleon or Anastasia.


The fact that these delusions have common elements is not a bit 
surprising. They always did in the past. People have limited 
imaginations and their fantasies or delusions are based on stories 
they have heard. The variations are about as wide as you see in 
folk-tales from different districts of pre-modern Japan, when 
peasants did not travel much.



If eyewitness information is to be ignored so completely and written 
off as unreliable, then much of our legal system is worthless and 
little better than selecting individuals for punishment randomly . . .


This is more or less the case. The number of wrongful convictions is very high.

As I said, numerous tests have been done of eyewitness reports in 
set-up situations (with actors) where the witnesses are normal, sane 
young college students and the like. Reports written immediately 
after the incidents are hopelessly garbled. The actors' roles are 
reversed, and the words they said are grossly misreported. Very 
often, unconscious race and sex prejudice in the witness distorts the 
events. This happens even though the witnesses are aware that what 
they saw was an act. (They are typically not aware it is fake when 
the incident occurs; that is to say, they are not forewarned.)


Naturally, there are many eyewitness reports of crimes which are 
entirely reliable. For example, if someone you know commits a crime, 
it takes a long time, and you are within sight of the person, your 
report will be highly reliable. Eyewitness reports fail when:


Events occur quickly

Events are extraordinary and not at all expected

The witness does not know the criminal

The witness is terribly frightened (which is not always the case with 
a crime, for example, not with embezzlement)



Likewise, many of the most dramatic encounters come from airline 
pilots or law enforcement officers or those charged with defense of 
our nation . . .


Approximately how many incidents have their been? What is the 
frequency? How many airline pilots in particular?


Here at the airport where I work, I encounter many pilots, albeit 
mostly private jets or unscheduled flights such as medivac. They do 
not strike me as exceptionally sane or reliable people, but then 
neither do electrochemists, psychiatrists, programmers or other 
groups I have encountered. All in all, as they say in England, 
there's naught so strange as folks.


- Jed

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.

From Mr. Storms:

 But, Steven, the experience is important. It is either real
 or it isn't. If it is real, it means the earth has been and
 is being influenced by intelligent beings from another planet
 for a long time, with all that this implies. If the
 experience is not real, it means that we cannot trust our
 eyes, our memory or even radar to correctly determine reality.
 It means that hundreds of thousands of people have been
 deceived by very clever hoaxes and we cannot believe anything
 a person claims to have personally experienced without
 physical proof, and all that this conclusion implies.

I agree 100%, these experiences ARE important. We may be splitting
hairs on the reasons such experiences might be considered important.

To reiterate a point I've made in the past, it is conceivable that a
certain percentage of UFO encounters reports are indeed classic
physical 3-D UFOs (alien craft) possibly performing catch and
release programs on indigenous life forms. As you correctly point out
we have compiled a tremendous amount of classic evidence such as in
the form of radar targets, photos and videos.

My treatise however attempts to focus on what I suspect is the bulk
of alleged UFO encounters, the type that take the form for which I
call the classic UFO Abduction Paradigm. My conjecture is that, yes,
indeed, they are real too, but not in the classic physical sense most
are used to thinking what real means.


 If claims about the general UFO phenomenon are based on a
 real experience, then we can start to evaluate the details
 to determine the nature of this reality.  Of course, people
 with imagination will suggest all kinds of explanations.
 The number of crazy ideas should not distract serious
 investigators from seeing the most obvious conclusion, i.e.
 that life has evolved on many planets and some of this life
 is more advanced than we are, probably because they started
 earlier in the history of the universe. They are now able
 to visit other planets and have done this for centuries.
 We just have to accept the idea that humans are not the top
 of the line life form and we  are not in God's image, at
 least on the surface.

For centuries? Hell! I bet such travellers have been visiting us
probably for a LOT longer than that! ;-)

--
Regards,
Steven Vincnet Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.

From Mr. Lawrence:

 The question to be considered is, what causes them?  Is
 it aliens, in the case of abductions?  Is it God, in the
 case of theophanies?  Or is it some internal change in
 state, like, say, a sudden drop in GABA levels in the
 midbrain?  That is an objective question which surely has
 an objective answer, and looking for the answer seems
 perfectly reasonable, rational, and even called for.  If
 we actually knew the answer, then that answer would
 certainly not change with the times.

There is certainly every legitimate reason to pursue causes for such
experiences. However, as we may end up with numerous
technical/medical/physiological explanations that attempt to explain
the mechanisms behind such experiences – such causes don't go to the
heart of the experience itself. What I have tried to bring forth here
is that in the end it may be the experience itself that is the most
important component – how it affects the experiencer as well as those
who listen to the recounting of the experience.

It seems to change according to the culture one is living in.

I realize my comment is likely to be considered unsatisfactory to some.

Regards,
Steven Vincnet Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.

From Mr. Roarty:

 Ed, I have to say that my temporal lens idea better
 fits the known facts regarding electromagnetic observations,
 be they visual or radar and may even allow some physical
 contact although the lack of physical evidence suggests
 otherwise.

Interesting hypothesis continues...

...

Reminds me of another concept, where it is conjectured that UFOs are
not actually physically present. What we are actually witnessing is an
observer peeping into our reality from somewhere else. We perceive
the UFO as occasionally darting about seemingly defying the laws of
physics, particularly the laws of inertia, because their tentacles are
furiously working away at the knobs and dials as they move their
interdimensional periscope about the surface of our planet from one
vantage point to another. Ooooh look'at'that... No wait! Look at
that! Wait! Get your appendages off of the dial. Its my turn at the
controls now!

--
Regards,
Steven Vincnet Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.

From Mr. Rothwell:

 There is no likelihood that abductions are hoaxes.
 There are countless other experiences in the past,
 such as people who thought they were visited by witches
 and succubuses and so on, which were obviously false
 memories of physically impossible events. But the
 people reporting these experiences believed them
 sincerely. Again, psychological tests have shown that
 it is easy to implant a false memory in most people.
 The techniques for doing this are settled and
 have been repeated in many psychological studies

Obviously false memories... physically impossible events... 

For someone who seems to go to extraordinary measures to maintain a
strict protocol concerning the collections of observations pertaining
to a broad spectrum of controversial phenomenon I find this statement
uncharacteristically fundamentalist in the conclusions it seems to
draw. Said differently, it seems very un-Jed of you!

I would personally be a bit more cautious in implying that the
mechanisms that govern how false memories are generated can somehow
equally explain the abduction phenomenon – which again I gather you
seem to be implying here.


Mr. Rothwell continues:

 My late mother was an expert in these issue (public
 opinion, perception and psychology). In the last years of
 her life, her mind was affected by Parkinson's and by the
 drugs she was taking for it. One day she told my sister:
 I just came back from a visit with uncle Danny, upstairs.
 Uncle Danny had been dead for 20 years and she was
 living in a one-floor retirement home, with no upstairs.
 My sister went along with it, saying oh really, and how
 is he? A few hours later after a nap she said, What did
 I tell you before? Uncle Danny? That's ridiculous; he's
 been dead for years. It must be that damned medication,
 causing hallucinations, which it was. I told her that if
 she were a shade more superstitious or spiritual she would
 count that as a visit to heaven upstairs, but knowing
 too much about pharmacology ruined the experience for her.

This is a wonderful story, Jed! Oh, how we try so valiantly not to
fool ourselves!

I would only want to add here the possibility that your mother may
have been more perceptive than what many assume. As I'm sure you are
well aware, with approaching death many individuals begin
spontaneously recalling visits and conversations with loved ones who
have already died. We think their mind is going. Maybe... maybe not.

This brings up an issue I've often witnessed when in the presence of
numerous atheists I've known. I've NEVER understood the pretext that
death somehow means one's consciousness doesn't have the natural
propensity to continue. It seems to me that most (not all, but most)
atheists automatically link the belief in survival-after-death with
god and religion, and as such, life-after-death automatically becomes
another taboo subject. I've never understood the propensity to create
such a linkage. As best as I can tell it's an independent variable.
All this talk about God and religion and their attempts to make
survival-after-death their exclusive right to own and control seems
rather silly to me.

Incidentally, I know an atheist friend who is convinced he/she
experienced a direct contact with his/her dead father. As far as I
know, he/she's still an atheist. Thank god!

 If you think you have been abducted, that does not mean
 you are crazy by any means, any more than it meant that
 young native Americans who went on vision quests and
 saw impossible things were crazy. The vision quest
 methods were optimized to trigger delusions. Many other
 rituals, dances that go for hours and other ceremonies
 are also known to induce delusions or extreme emotions.
 Soldiers in WWII battles often reported extreme delusions
 that were more vivid than reality, such as their dead
 friends walking in front of them, or a woman with scull
 head trying to entice them into no-man-land (both
 described by William Manchester in Goodbye, Darkness).
 However, just because these experiences were vivid
 certainly  does not mean they were real!

At least we can agree on the premise that experiencers are not crazy.
Every one I've met seem to function in society just like everyone
else. Some experiencers I like, and some I don't. Just like a normal
cross-section of society.

--
Regards,
Steven Vincnet Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.

From Mr. Rothwell, responding to Mr. Storms

 In the case of the UFO experience, the shared
 experience is overwhelming.

 If UFOs are delusions, we would expect the delusion
 to be shared (stereotyped) and widespread. That's
 why so many people used to imagine they saw witches
 flying on brooms.

What mechanism causes a UFO delusion be a shared experience?

What delusional mechanisms are in place that cause these so called
deluded individuals to independently (with no prior knowledge of such
subject material) experience classic UFO abduction paradigms such
as... (the following cut-and-pasted from a previous post:

* Of being rendered helpless to resist. Not only do some experiencers
feel they are rendered helpless many, after they recall their
experiences later, feel they have, in a sense, betrayed their own
integrity, their own souls, because they were either unable or
unwilling to resist. Many can feel a sense of shame and/or defeat
because they recall accompanying memories of their own rebellious
attitude suddenly, in an instant, shifting or transforming to becoming
willing participants. This shift in perception can later cause many
experiencers as assume they must have been temporarily brainwashed
or that some form of alien mind control was extended over them. The
more emotionally adjusted experiencers, on the other hand, eventually
begin to suspect there is something more interesting transpiring
between themselves and the aliens. Many begin to perceive a
conscious partnership is in the process of evolving. Granted, some may
perceive this transformation, such a partnership, as classic Stockholm
syndrome at work. However, and IMHO, there seems to be much more going
on here than brutal acts of terrorism, where victims attempt to
align their sense of survival with the enemy in order to regain a
sense of safety. For one thing, the transformation to a willing
participant is often instantaneous, for example, the moment an alien
touches them.

* Of having surgery performed on your body. Of being examined,
typically in the gynecological sense. Eggs are removed from females -
sperm removed from males.

* Of at subsequent abductions being shown their offspring, the
result of their eggs (and sperm) having been combined in some
fashion with alien DNA components to produce hybrids.

* When being shown their hybrid offspring, they are asked to
nurture, to extend their human love towards the hybrid. Often the
hybrids are perceived as weak or sickly. It is often made clear to
the abductee, particularly mothers that the essential missing
ingredient is LOVE, that the mother needs to extend her love
towards these hybrid children in order to make them healthy.

* Of being shown highly detailed futuristic scenes, movies of global
apocalyptic events that will soon transpire across the planet. They
are told these events will occur if we don't clean up our act,
especially our misbehavior towards the environment. Such movies
typically evoke strong and primal emotional responses from within the
experiencer. Experiencers often feel overwhelmed, helpless to rectify
such catastrophic events. For example, the experiencer I conversed
with last month described being shown a catastrophic scene where the
state of California simply loses its footing, so to speak, and slides
into the Pacific Ocean.

---

Please keep in mind that such experiences were independently collected
from many individuals who had no prior knowledge or interest in UFOs,
especially alien creatures. Such experiential tags have been
documented in numerous books.


Regards,
Steven Vincnet Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm

Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.

From Mr. Lacy

 What you said is similar to what Carl Jung said related
 to the UFO/alien experience:

 The UFO/alien is an image of the human soul.

You don't say! I was aware that Jung wrote a book on the UFO subject
but I haven't read it yet. I've been so busy doing my own thing that I
forgot that the venerable old doctor had a few things to say on the
subject. Silly me! I knew his work was about powerful Mandelas of the
mind, a concept that resonates for me. Thanks for reminding me of my
next homework assignment, Mario. Much appreciated.

 The excessive belief in technology, science, an excessive
 rationality, in spite of other, more subtle experiences
 and modes of knowledge, and the associated materialism, can
 all be forms of superstition, too.

Well articulated.

Regards,
Steven Vincnet Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm