[WISPA] PTP 600 upgrade
I've started upgrading my Cambium PTP 600 links to the latest 10 software. I did a link last night and everything went fine. Tonight, the first backhaul I upgraded, I can't log in to now. I'm 100% sure I'm typing the correct password in. Anybody else having this issue? Dylan WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PTP 600 upgrade
I've now had it happen to 5 different units in a row. Stopping until I figure out what's going on. I've tried different browsers, caps lock on/off, etc. Dylan -Original Message- From: Dylan Bouterse Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 12:39 AM To: WISPA General List (wireless@wispa.org) Subject: PTP 600 upgrade I've started upgrading my Cambium PTP 600 links to the latest 10 software. I did a link last night and everything went fine. Tonight, the first backhaul I upgraded, I can't log in to now. I'm 100% sure I'm typing the correct password in. Anybody else having this issue? Dylan WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
is just a reflector and positioned farther away from the feed receive element, apposed to the panel backplain that might interfact with the RF field because of proximity. With OFDM MIMO the bigger concern is going to be colocation self interference with other antennas. So if mounting several antennas at a sight, you'll want an antenna with good Front to back and sharp cut-off on edges, with minimal side lobes as possible. To compare a [arabolic to PAnel, you'd need to look at the antenna patterns, not sure which is better fif the two are the same gain. (for example 26db parabolic versus 26db panel). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jawad A Hai To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Hello Josh, What antennas did you use? Flate Panel or Dish (MIMO), ? What is your Radio that goes with ARC ?? did you get a chance to use other brands beside ARC ? http://en.jirous.com/antenna-5ghz/jrc-29-dx-pr http://www.lanbowan.com/products/en_vpro.asp?id=707 From: Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
PtP I will go for short distances anything under 10 KM. Above that I will go for dish. From: Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Just noticed the subject was ptp. What kind of distances? Panels are not a great choice a lot of the time. On Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
In my opinion it's better to have too much antenna and turn the Tx power down so that I can get narrower beamwidths. The narrower beamwidths make a big difference in a noisy environments. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas PtP I will go for short distances anything under 10 KM. Above that I will go for dish. From: Josh Luthmanmailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:25 AM To: WISPA General Listmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Just noticed the subject was ptp. What kind of distances? Panels are not a great choice a lot of the time. On Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.commailto:rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.commailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.commailto:ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3763 - Release Date: 07/13/11 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Too much antenna ?? you mean bigger antenna gain ?? From: Jerry Richardson Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:59 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas In my opinion it's better to have too much antenna and turn the Tx power down so that I can get narrower beamwidths. The narrower beamwidths make a big difference in a noisy environments. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas PtP I will go for short distances anything under 10 KM. Above that I will go for dish. From: Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Just noticed the subject was ptp. What kind of distances? Panels are not a great choice a lot of the time. On Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3763 - Release Date: 07/13/11 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
He is stating (and I agree) it is better to have greater gain on the antenna then it is more transmit power. Spend more money on your antennas then worrying about tx power. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Too much antenna ?? you mean bigger antenna gain ?? *From:* Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:59 PM *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas In my opinion it's better to have too much antenna and turn the Tx power down so that I can get narrower beamwidths. The narrower beamwidths make a big difference in a noisy environments. ** ** - Jerry ** ** *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Jawad A Hai *Sent:* Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:26 PM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas ** ** PtP I will go for short distances anything under 10 KM. Above that I will go for dish. ** ** *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:25 AM *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas ** ** Just noticed the subject was ptp. What kind of distances? Panels are not a great choice a lot of the time. On Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3763 - Release Date: 07/13/11*** * -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Yes but not necessarily for more EIRP. At 5.8GHz a 23dB panel antenna is ~10deg where a 30dB 2' dish is ~5deg. Since you mentioned you are in a high noise environment, the narrower beamwidth would be preferred. The benefit is that from the Tx side, you are minimizing the amount of spectrum pollution by minimizing the beamwidth and increasing power density. At the Rx side the antenna sees less sky and as such sees less noise increasing your overall link S/N. Depending on the direction of other tranmitters this can mean the differnece between a link that works and link that fails (think cupping your hand behind your ear to hear in a crowded room). A part of antenna selection that many don't consider is spectrum conservation. The goal is to try to achieve the desired link performance while using as little EIRP as possible and minimizing overspray. The less noise you put into the spectrum, the better things will be for you since your competetors won't need to turn up their radios to hear over yours. If you can manage to put up a link in a way that the other guys doesn't even know you are there, you win. If you cause him interference and he turns up his power, or worse moves channels you lose. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 10:03 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Too much antenna ?? you mean bigger antenna gain ?? From: Jerry Richardsonmailto:jrichard...@aircloud.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:59 PM To: WISPA General Listmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas In my opinion it's better to have too much antenna and turn the Tx power down so that I can get narrower beamwidths. The narrower beamwidths make a big difference in a noisy environments. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas PtP I will go for short distances anything under 10 KM. Above that I will go for dish. From: Josh Luthmanmailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:25 AM To: WISPA General Listmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Just noticed the subject was ptp. What kind of distances? Panels are not a great choice a lot of the time. On Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.commailto:rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.commailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.commailto:ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Yes, and also keep in mind that gain is not always tied to antenna beamwidth. Gain is a function of antenna directivity (which is a good indicator of beamwidth) and antenna efficiency. Parabolic reflectors, for example, have greater directivity, and therefore narrower beamwidths and better interference rejection, than panels, since panels have higher efficiency. -- Patrick Shoemaker From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 13:07 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas He is stating (and I agree) it is better to have greater gain on the antenna then it is more transmit power. Spend more money on your antennas then worrying about tx power. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.commailto:ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: Too much antenna ?? you mean bigger antenna gain ?? From: Jerry Richardsonmailto:jrichard...@aircloud.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:59 PM To: WISPA General Listmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas In my opinion it's better to have too much antenna and turn the Tx power down so that I can get narrower beamwidths. The narrower beamwidths make a big difference in a noisy environments. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas PtP I will go for short distances anything under 10 KM. Above that I will go for dish. From: Josh Luthmanmailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:25 AM To: WISPA General Listmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Just noticed the subject was ptp. What kind of distances? Panels are not a great choice a lot of the time. On Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.commailto:rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.commailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340tel:937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343tel:937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.commailto:ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Yes I agree ... Nice piece of advise. From: Jerry Richardson Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 8:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Yes but not necessarily for more EIRP. At 5.8GHz a 23dB panel antenna is ~10deg where a 30dB 2' dish is ~5deg. Since you mentioned you are in a high noise environment, the narrower beamwidth would be preferred. The benefit is that from the Tx side, you are minimizing the amount of spectrum pollution by minimizing the beamwidth and increasing power density. At the Rx side the antenna sees less sky and as such sees less noise increasing your overall link S/N. Depending on the direction of other tranmitters this can mean the differnece between a link that works and link that fails (think cupping your hand behind your ear to hear in a crowded room). A part of antenna selection that many don't consider is spectrum conservation. The goal is to try to achieve the desired link performance while using as little EIRP as possible and minimizing overspray. The less noise you put into the spectrum, the better things will be for you since your competetors won't need to turn up their radios to hear over yours. If you can manage to put up a link in a way that the other guys doesn't even know you are there, you win. If you cause him interference and he turns up his power, or worse moves channels you lose. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 10:03 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Too much antenna ?? you mean bigger antenna gain ?? From: Jerry Richardson Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:59 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas In my opinion it's better to have too much antenna and turn the Tx power down so that I can get narrower beamwidths. The narrower beamwidths make a big difference in a noisy environments. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas PtP I will go for short distances anything under 10 KM. Above that I will go for dish. From: Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Just noticed the subject was ptp. What kind of distances? Panels are not a great choice a lot of the time. On Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Oops, didn't mean to repeat Jerry's post. Didn't see it before writing mine. -- Patrick Shoemaker From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Shoemaker Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 14:57 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Yes, and also keep in mind that gain is not always tied to antenna beamwidth. Gain is a function of antenna directivity (which is a good indicator of beamwidth) and antenna efficiency. Parabolic reflectors, for example, have greater directivity, and therefore narrower beamwidths and better interference rejection, than panels, since panels have higher efficiency. -- Patrick Shoemaker From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 13:07 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas He is stating (and I agree) it is better to have greater gain on the antenna then it is more transmit power. Spend more money on your antennas then worrying about tx power. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.commailto:ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: Too much antenna ?? you mean bigger antenna gain ?? From: Jerry Richardsonmailto:jrichard...@aircloud.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:59 PM To: WISPA General Listmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas In my opinion it's better to have too much antenna and turn the Tx power down so that I can get narrower beamwidths. The narrower beamwidths make a big difference in a noisy environments. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas PtP I will go for short distances anything under 10 KM. Above that I will go for dish. From: Josh Luthmanmailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:25 AM To: WISPA General Listmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Just noticed the subject was ptp. What kind of distances? Panels are not a great choice a lot of the time. On Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.commailto:rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.commailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340tel:937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343tel:937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.commailto:ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
It's OK. It makes it look like we're actually sharing some truth and not some made up facts. We all know to make the best links you just need a 10 jigawatt amp and 3 dbi omnis. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com wrote: Oops, didn’t mean to repeat Jerry’s post. Didn’t see it before writing mine. ** ** -- Patrick Shoemaker ** ** *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Shoemaker *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2011 14:57 *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas ** ** Yes, and also keep in mind that gain is not always tied to antenna beamwidth. Gain is a function of antenna directivity (which is a good indicator of beamwidth) and antenna efficiency. Parabolic reflectors, for example, have greater directivity, and therefore narrower beamwidths and better interference rejection, than panels, since panels have higher efficiency. ** ** -- Patrick Shoemaker ** ** *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2011 13:07 *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas ** ** He is stating (and I agree) it is better to have greater gain on the antenna then it is more transmit power. Spend more money on your antennas then worrying about tx power. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote:* *** Too much antenna ?? you mean bigger antenna gain ?? ** ** *From:* Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:59 PM *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas ** ** In my opinion it's better to have too much antenna and turn the Tx power down so that I can get narrower beamwidths. The narrower beamwidths make a big difference in a noisy environments. - Jerry *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Jawad A Hai *Sent:* Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:26 PM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas PtP I will go for short distances anything under 10 KM. Above that I will go for dish. *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2011 5:25 AM *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Just noticed the subject was ptp. What kind of distances? Panels are not a great choice a lot of the time. On Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
[WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Hello Josh, What antennas did you use? Flate Panel or Dish (MIMO), ? What is your Radio that goes with ARC ?? did you get a chance to use other brands beside ARC ? http://en.jirous.com/antenna-5ghz/jrc-29-dx-pr http://www.lanbowan.com/products/en_vpro.asp?id=707 From: Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Flat panel. Mikrotik. The brands I replaced, for the most part, are unknown to me. I did replace a pair of little PacWireless dishes but it isn't something comparable (due to LMR400 runs). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello Josh, What antennas did you use? Flate Panel or Dish (MIMO), ? What is your Radio that goes with ARC ?? did you get a chance to use other brands beside ARC ? http://en.jirous.com/antenna-5ghz/jrc-29-dx-pr http://www.lanbowan.com/products/en_vpro.asp?id=707 *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *Sent:* Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:20 PM *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Jawad, There is no simple answer to this. You have to take manufactuer specs with a grain of salt as many will skew the numbers leading you to believe the product is better than it is. The other issue is that in many cases the product is a re-branded product made by someone else. Truth be told, if you want PtP in noisy environments you might consider using the new Ubiquity RocketM-GPS radios. You will be able to run channels closer together and in some cases re-use channels which will help a lot. The kits are low-cost and high performance, and the dishes work great. For panels, ARC has always performed as I expected it to. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 12:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3762 - Release Date: 07/13/11 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Hello Jerry, Thank YOu for the suggestion. You have exactly understood my problem, I read specs and bring the product and test then compare it with other I always had issues. My main issues is the place where I live I don't have liberty of importing using direct channels. I have to use backdoors for importing and I usually import large numbers and keep them in stock. The stock usually last for 2-4 months. Problem now is UBNT is out of stock and waiting time is 6 weeks +. Appreciate your reply Jerry. From: Jerry Richardson Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:48 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Jawad, There is no simple answer to this. You have to take manufactuer specs with a grain of salt as many will skew the numbers leading you to believe the product is better than it is. The other issue is that in many cases the product is a re-branded product made by someone else. Truth be told, if you want PtP in noisy environments you might consider using the new Ubiquity RocketM-GPS radios. You will be able to run channels closer together and in some cases re-use channels which will help a lot. The kits are low-cost and high performance, and the dishes work great. For panels, ARC has always performed as I expected it to. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 12:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3762 - Release Date: 07/13/11 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
You could potentially start with the standard Rockets. When the GPS units are more available, you could swap out the AP end and keep the non-GPS units for spares on the Station end. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 12:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Hello Jerry, Thank YOu for the suggestion. You have exactly understood my problem, I read specs and bring the product and test then compare it with other I always had issues. My main issues is the place where I live I don't have liberty of importing using direct channels. I have to use backdoors for importing and I usually import large numbers and keep them in stock. The stock usually last for 2-4 months. Problem now is UBNT is out of stock and waiting time is 6 weeks +. Appreciate your reply Jerry. From: Jerry Richardsonmailto:jrichard...@aircloud.com Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:48 PM To: WISPA General Listmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Jawad, There is no simple answer to this. You have to take manufactuer specs with a grain of salt as many will skew the numbers leading you to believe the product is better than it is. The other issue is that in many cases the product is a re-branded product made by someone else. Truth be told, if you want PtP in noisy environments you might consider using the new Ubiquity RocketM-GPS radios. You will be able to run channels closer together and in some cases re-use channels which will help a lot. The kits are low-cost and high performance, and the dishes work great. For panels, ARC has always performed as I expected it to. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jawad A Hai Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 12:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3762 - Release Date: 07/13/11 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3762 - Release Date: 07/13/11 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
+1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
Just noticed the subject was ptp. What kind of distances? Panels are not a great choice a lot of the time. On Jul 13, 2011 10:23 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: +1 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I like ARC Wireless, been happy with them. Never heard of Lanbowan or Jirous. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas
I'll save Chuck from having to type this again: http://www.ubnt.com/stock :P On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Jawad A Hai ahja...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Hello Jerry, Thank YOu for the suggestion. You have exactly understood my problem, I read specs and bring the product and test then compare it with other I always had issues. My main issues is the place where I live I don’t have liberty of importing using direct channels. I have to use backdoors for importing and I usually import large numbers and keep them in stock. The stock usually last for 2-4 months. Problem now is UBNT is out of stock and waiting time is 6 weeks +. Appreciate your reply Jerry. *From:* Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com *Sent:* Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:48 PM *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas Jawad, There is no simple answer to this. ** ** You have to take manufactuer specs with a grain of salt as many will skew the numbers leading you to believe the product is better than it is. The other issue is that in many cases the product is a re-branded product made by someone else. ** ** Truth be told, if you want PtP in noisy environments you might consider using the new Ubiquity RocketM-GPS radios. You will be able to run channels closer together and in some cases re-use channels which will help a lot. The kits are low-cost and high performance, and the dishes work great. ** ** For panels, ARC has always performed as I expected it to. ** ** - Jerry ** ** *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Jawad A Hai *Sent:* Wednesday, July 13, 2011 12:15 PM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* [WISPA] PtP Flat Panel and MiMo Dish Antennas ** ** Hello, I have posted below in several forums without success, I will appreciate if you some body can advise me. Hi, This is my first post in the forum.( have posted in mikrotik and ddwrt without any luck ) I wanted to know what antennas users/Pros use for PtP needs.(Apart from UBNT) Both Flat Panel and MiMO dish as well as Panel. i was looking at different companies like Lanbowan, Jirous, ARCWireless. Lanbowan has 27 dbi Flat Panel, which others are not offering. ARC has got good reviews on mikrotik forum but jirous has got best port to port isolation(MIMO). Can you all please share your thoughts on antennas. Cuz a good Radio is nothing without a good antenna. My requirement is to have a good PtP links distance from 10-50 KMs range in very crowded environments. I have been trying different brands with different results and its difficult to test the brands in live environments, just thinking to take an advise here on the forum and buy the same and test it. Its not about just one link or two, i needed some permanent vendor. Thank YOu -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3762 - Release Date: 07/13/11*** * -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP
Hi Akin, What are the link distances and throughput you require? - - - - - Olufemi Adalemo On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 1:06 AM, akinlolu C. Ajayi-Obe aajayi...@as-technologies.com wrote: I'm setting up four wirless links and three more links through an Internet provider to the zonal office. I have two choices for radion UBNT or Mikrotik. I might have to use a repeater for one or two sites. I also want to use a cisco ASA on each site. Any help or advice will be appreciated. Thanks Akinlolu C. Ajayi-Obe -Original Message- From: wireless-requ...@wispa.org Sender: wireless-boun...@wispa.org Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:00:03 To: wireless@wispa.org Reply-To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Wireless Digest, Vol 37, Issue 28 Send Wireless mailing list submissions to wireless@wispa.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to wireless-requ...@wispa.org You can reach the person managing the list at wireless-ow...@wispa.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Wireless digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Cisco ASA 5505 (Andy Trimmell) 2. Re: [Ubnt_users] NS5 issues? (Tom DeReggi) 3. Re: 11Ghz Licensing Warning Question (Tom DeReggi) 4. Re: 11Ghz Licensing Warning Question (Tom DeReggi) 5. Re: 11Ghz Licensing Warning Question (Tom DeReggi) 6. Re: 11Ghz Licensing Warning Question (Tom DeReggi) 7. IPPay Code 012 Declines (Chuck Hogg) 8. Re: IPPay Code 012 Declines (Josh Luthman) 9. Re: IPPay Code 012 Declines (Chuck Hogg) 10. Re: IPPay Code 012 Declines (Scott Reed) 11. Re: 11Ghz Licensing Warning Question (Charles N Wyble) -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
1 person on each end with a small hand-held mirror. Flash the person on the other tower. When it's sunny out, you'd be surprised how far away you can see that. On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Chuck Profito cprof...@cv-access.comwrote: Well in my area if its e-w about a turn, n-s 2 or 3. But what do I know, Tim's doing the turning, I'm calling the signal levels to him. I'm the tower bender! :-) *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman *Sent:* Wednesday, October 20, 2010 11:05 AM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment So it's 50 foot higher and 10 miles away...what angle is that? On Oct 20, 2010 1:38 PM, Chuck Profito cprof...@cv-access.com wrote: Come on Josh, get a couple of land marks from Google Earth, that takes care of left and right, and Google Earth tells you altitude at the base of each plus your height, now it's just up or down from level, a few turns. Google is your friend! From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:02 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just filled a printer page with trig figuring out hoe I'm going to place my projector. There are more uses then people think. On Oct 20, 2010 12:55 PM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: YES LOL ;) Only once did I know of a a practical use for trig. A friend of mine was trying to make a cut pattern in sheet metal to make a cone. The cone had to fit a certain size at the top and a certain size at the bottom. The cone was a pivotal part of his home brewing system. He is the kind of guy who can buy this stuff pre-made but preferred to do it himself. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, I just buy the stuff. Though he is a bit prouder of HIS homebrew system than I am, and that's the difference. Nobody else who opens my fridge knows, though. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Am I the only one that uses Trigonometry for vertical alignment? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 permail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
When the weather goes bad we don't do outside work. Some times of the year that gets to be a real issue. But what I've found is that if we install gear when we can't see we too often end up with something (trees etc.) in the way. The other thing I've done is lay a stick or something like that out 50ish yards from the tower in the direction that the antenna needs to go. Then when I get back to the site I can at least get things close on installation day. marlon - Original Message - From: Mark Nash To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:16 AM Subject: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
You can also tie a light colored rope on the tower and stretch it out on the line. Most of the time I just take a milk jug or some other light colored object and set it out as far as I can to use as the target. We use a Starrett angle finder to check the tilt. As mentioned in a previous post, you can get the tilt from Radio Mobile. Jim Patient Cell: 314-565-6863 Desk: 636-692-4200 YIM: jeffcosoho www.wlan1.com www.linktechs.net www.wifimidwest.com On 10/19/2010 11:37 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: Jim that is an excellent point. Its how our climbers did it that we pay. They draw the direction to point on the ground with spray paint or something. Then when on the tower, looking down, its pretty easy to align the feed with the line on the ground. For up down, I've seen them use levels on the dish, and pre-calculate the downtilt. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Jim Patient mailto:sa...@jeffcosoho.com *To:* WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:00 PM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment We hillbilly them up all the time and most of the time don't need to go back to tower 1. Every once in a while we might have to go back and tweak the alignment a little. I use Delorme Topo USA and a GPS receiver on my laptop. Mark both locations and draw a line between the towers. Zoom in and start walking directly away from the tower in the direction of the link and keep the little arrow thingy on the line. I go out a few hundred feet, make sure I'm on the line and drop a direction target to shoot at. Jim Patient Cell: 314-565-6863 Desk: 636-692-4200 YIM: jeffcosoho www.wlan1.com www.linktechs.net www.wifimidwest.com On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Am I the only one that uses Trigonometry for vertical alignment? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Jim Patient sa...@jeffcosoho.com wrote: You can also tie a light colored rope on the tower and stretch it out on the line. Most of the time I just take a milk jug or some other light colored object and set it out as far as I can to use as the target. We use a Starrett angle finder to check the tilt. As mentioned in a previous post, you can get the tilt from Radio Mobile. Jim Patient Cell: 314-565-6863 Desk: 636-692-4200 YIM: jeffcosohowww.wlan1.comwww.linktechs.netwww.wifimidwest.com On 10/19/2010 11:37 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: Jim that is an excellent point. Its how our climbers did it that we pay. They draw the direction to point on the ground with spray paint or something. Then when on the tower, looking down, its pretty easy to align the feed with the line on the ground. For up down, I've seen them use levels on the dish, and pre-calculate the downtilt. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Jim Patient sa...@jeffcosoho.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:00 PM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment We hillbilly them up all the time and most of the time don't need to go back to tower 1. Every once in a while we might have to go back and tweak the alignment a little. I use Delorme Topo USA and a GPS receiver on my laptop. Mark both locations and draw a line between the towers. Zoom in and start walking directly away from the tower in the direction of the link and keep the little arrow thingy on the line. I go out a few hundred feet, make sure I'm on the line and drop a direction target to shoot at. Jim Patient Cell: 314-565-6863 Desk: 636-692-4200 YIM: jeffcosohowww.wlan1.comwww.linktechs.netwww.wifimidwest.com On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
YES LOL ;) Only once did I know of a a practical use for trig. A friend of mine was trying to make a cut pattern in sheet metal to make a cone. The cone had to fit a certain size at the top and a certain size at the bottom. The cone was a pivotal part of his home brewing system. He is the kind of guy who can buy this stuff pre-made but preferred to do it himself. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, I just buy the stuff. Though he is a bit prouder of HIS homebrew system than I am, and that's the difference. Nobody else who opens my fridge knows, though. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Am I the only one that uses Trigonometry for vertical alignment? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 permail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
I just filled a printer page with trig figuring out hoe I'm going to place my projector. There are more uses then people think. On Oct 20, 2010 12:55 PM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: YES LOL ;) Only once did I know of a a practical use for trig. A friend of mine was trying to make a cut pattern in sheet metal to make a cone. The cone had to fit a certain size at the top and a certain size at the bottom. The cone was a pivotal part of his home brewing system. He is the kind of guy who can buy this stuff pre-made but preferred to do it himself. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, I just buy the stuff. Though he is a bit prouder of HIS homebrew system than I am, and that's the difference. Nobody else who opens my fridge knows, though. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Am I the only one that uses Trigonometry for vertical alignment? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 permail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Yeah... and that's one of the reasons I keep THAT friend around... ;) I stopped doing math in high school as soon as I could. There's just no time in the day with 4 music classes on the schedule... - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:02 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just filled a printer page with trig figuring out hoe I'm going to place my projector. There are more uses then people think. On Oct 20, 2010 12:55 PM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: YES LOL ;) Only once did I know of a a practical use for trig. A friend of mine was trying to make a cut pattern in sheet metal to make a cone. The cone had to fit a certain size at the top and a certain size at the bottom. The cone was a pivotal part of his home brewing system. He is the kind of guy who can buy this stuff pre-made but preferred to do it himself. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, I just buy the stuff. Though he is a bit prouder of HIS homebrew system than I am, and that's the difference. Nobody else who opens my fridge knows, though. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Am I the only one that uses Trigonometry for vertical alignment? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 permail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Come on Josh, get a couple of land marks from Google Earth, that takes care of left and right, and Google Earth tells you altitude at the base of each plus your height, now it's just up or down from level, a few turns. Google is your friend! From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:02 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just filled a printer page with trig figuring out hoe I'm going to place my projector. There are more uses then people think. On Oct 20, 2010 12:55 PM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: YES LOL ;) Only once did I know of a a practical use for trig. A friend of mine was trying to make a cut pattern in sheet metal to make a cone. The cone had to fit a certain size at the top and a certain size at the bottom. The cone was a pivotal part of his home brewing system. He is the kind of guy who can buy this stuff pre-made but preferred to do it himself. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, I just buy the stuff. Though he is a bit prouder of HIS homebrew system than I am, and that's the difference. Nobody else who opens my fridge knows, though. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Am I the only one that uses Trigonometry for vertical alignment? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 permail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
So it's 50 foot higher and 10 miles away...what angle is that? On Oct 20, 2010 1:38 PM, Chuck Profito cprof...@cv-access.com wrote: Come on Josh, get a couple of land marks from Google Earth, that takes care of left and right, and Google Earth tells you altitude at the base of each plus your height, now it's just up or down from level, a few turns. Google is your friend! From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:02 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just filled a printer page with trig figuring out hoe I'm going to place my projector. There are more uses then people think. On Oct 20, 2010 12:55 PM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: YES LOL ;) Only once did I know of a a practical use for trig. A friend of mine was trying to make a cut pattern in sheet metal to make a cone. The cone had to fit a certain size at the top and a certain size at the bottom. The cone was a pivotal part of his home brewing system. He is the kind of guy who can buy this stuff pre-made but preferred to do it himself. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, I just buy the stuff. Though he is a bit prouder of HIS homebrew system than I am, and that's the difference. Nobody else who opens my fridge knows, though. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Am I the only one that uses Trigonometry for vertical alignment? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 permail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Don't forget to factor in the curvature of the earth ;) On 10/20/2010 1:05 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: So it's 50 foot higher and 10 miles away...what angle is that? On Oct 20, 2010 1:38 PM, Chuck Profito cprof...@cv-access.com mailto:cprof...@cv-access.com wrote: Come on Josh, get a couple of land marks from Google Earth, that takes care of left and right, and Google Earth tells you altitude at the base of each plus your height, now it's just up or down from level, a few turns. Google is your friend! From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:02 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just filled a printer page with trig figuring out hoe I'm going to place my projector. There are more uses then people think. On Oct 20, 2010 12:55 PM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net mailto:markl...@uwol.net wrote: YES LOL ;) Only once did I know of a a practical use for trig. A friend of mine was trying to make a cut pattern in sheet metal to make a cone. The cone had to fit a certain size at the top and a certain size at the bottom. The cone was a pivotal part of his home brewing system. He is the kind of guy who can buy this stuff pre-made but preferred to do it himself. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, I just buy the stuff. Though he is a bit prouder of HIS homebrew system than I am, and that's the difference. Nobody else who opens my fridge knows, though. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Am I the only one that uses Trigonometry for vertical alignment? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 permail/wireless/ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the *DTISP MailScanner* http://www.dtisp.com/, and is believed to be clean. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Green Bay Professional Packet Radio http://www.qsl.net/n9zia scroll down to Interactive Wireless / RF Design Utilities all you need is the GPS coordinates LOTS of other stuff there too - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment So it's 50 foot higher and 10 miles away...what angle is that? On Oct 20, 2010 1:38 PM, Chuck Profito cprof...@cv-access.com wrote: Come on Josh, get a couple of land marks from Google Earth, that takes care of left and right, and Google Earth tells you altitude at the base of each plus your height, now it's just up or down from level, a few turns. Google is your friend! From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:02 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just filled a printer page with trig figuring out hoe I'm going to place my projector. There are more uses then people think. On Oct 20, 2010 12:55 PM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: YES LOL ;) Only once did I know of a a practical use for trig. A friend of mine was trying to make a cut pattern in sheet metal to make a cone. The cone had to fit a certain size at the top and a certain size at the bottom. The cone was a pivotal part of his home brewing system. He is the kind of guy who can buy this stuff pre-made but preferred to do it himself. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, I just buy the stuff. Though he is a bit prouder of HIS homebrew system than I am, and that's the difference. Nobody else who opens my fridge knows, though. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Am I the only one that uses Trigonometry for vertical alignment? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 permail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Well in my area if its e-w about a turn, n-s 2 or 3. But what do I know, Tim's doing the turning, I'm calling the signal levels to him. I'm the tower bender! :-) From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment So it's 50 foot higher and 10 miles away...what angle is that? On Oct 20, 2010 1:38 PM, Chuck Profito cprof...@cv-access.com wrote: Come on Josh, get a couple of land marks from Google Earth, that takes care of left and right, and Google Earth tells you altitude at the base of each plus your height, now it's just up or down from level, a few turns. Google is your friend! From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 10:02 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just filled a printer page with trig figuring out hoe I'm going to place my projector. There are more uses then people think. On Oct 20, 2010 12:55 PM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: YES LOL ;) Only once did I know of a a practical use for trig. A friend of mine was trying to make a cut pattern in sheet metal to make a cone. The cone had to fit a certain size at the top and a certain size at the bottom. The cone was a pivotal part of his home brewing system. He is the kind of guy who can buy this stuff pre-made but preferred to do it himself. I don't have that kind of time on my hands, I just buy the stuff. Though he is a bit prouder of HIS homebrew system than I am, and that's the difference. Nobody else who opens my fridge knows, though. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Am I the only one that uses Trigonometry for vertical alignment? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 permail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
What we just did this month for SAF Lumina: Site 1, install it all Site 2, install it all, align Site 1, align We did cheat (compared it to a 5Ghz dish that we are upgrading). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Yeah that's what we do now. I'd like to save the 2nd trip to the first site. ;) - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment What we just did this month for SAF Lumina: Site 1, install it all Site 2, install it all, align Site 1, align We did cheat (compared it to a 5Ghz dish that we are upgrading). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
You also need to make sure that the software is taking into account magnetic declination, or that you know what your declination is if it is giving azimuth from true north. If you don't know what declination is, look it up. Otherwise you'll be several degrees off. Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
1) Put the side up that's in town first and guestimate to the best of your ability (if new frequency), align to another radio on tower if already have similar freq. 2) Install remote and align to first radio 3) Back in town do final alignment of first radio. Famous phone conversation with office: Left left left, ok back right --- there lock it down, now vertical up, up, up, ok down, down, up, perfect lock it in. Then don't bump it while tightening or you'll get back to the office and check it again and go DOH! Forbes On 10/19/2010 8:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
(sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Also note, because regular compass works on magnatism, it will not always function accurately on top of tall buildings, because of all the other forces up there that screw with it. So usually, we print a map, draw a line, and look for landmarks, and calculate the degree to a specific landmark, therefore we can align / verify our compass to that landmark. GPS compass will work more accurately. We do almost all our 5.X dish alignments with a single tech, one side at a time, and we find it quicker (man hours) to do it that way, even when a second trip is needed to the first site.. If aligning millimeterwave 24Ghz and above, well its like near impossible to do quickly without two people. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Greg Ihnen To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Whoa declination is very important. Wikipedia has a link to a NOAA calculator where you put in your ZIP code (or GPS coordinates), date, tell it to compute your declination. Then you have to know how to calculate it. Here's the link: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomagmodels/Declination.jsp You WILL be several degress off if you don't adjust for it on your compass. - Original Message - From: Cameron Crum To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You also need to make sure that the software is taking into account magnetic declination, or that you know what your declination is if it is giving azimuth from true north. If you don't know what declination is, look it up. Otherwise you'll be several degrees off. Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
I wonder how accurate(ish) a GPS compass app would be on the iphone/blackberry/android. Plug in the GPS coordinates of the other side and may get the link pretty close??? At least close enough to know that you're pointing it in the right direction (picture fog all around you on the tower...staring out into nothing but fog...don't know which way is which due to winding roads to the tower). If you're close enough, you will get a link when you put the other end of the link up, and you can at LEAST peak the 2nd dish, then go back to the first. If you're way off, they won't link, and you end up spinning your wheels. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
we sent someone out in the field with a mirror and looked for the reflections On 10/19/2010 11:28 AM, Mark Nash wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com mailto:os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
I just did a ptp install of 5g 2ft rocket dishs at 6.47 miles and could not see either tower. Now I already had a ptp link to another tower from tower 1 so this helped. I used Google Earth to map out the points and then used the ruler to connect each ptp link. I took the map with me on tower 1 and mounted and aligned the dish. I just eyeballed the direction of the dish in relation to the existing dish using the Google map. I got everything powered up and then went to tower 2. At tower 2 I had a landmark that I thought was close to the right direction. Mounted dish and pointed at landmark and had a signal. I then aligned dish while guy on ground gave signal reports. I have not gone back up on tower 1 yet to tweak dish. I actually have a 67 signal when lingowave said it should be 57 so I do need to align dish on tower 1. I did not want to believe Google maps at first but when I actually got up on tower I could tell it was about right. I have tried using a compass but on a tower the compass will not work correctly. Guess the metal structure throws the magnetic field off. On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the *DTISP MailScanner* http://www.dtisp.com/, and is believed to be clean. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
I run up a 3 foot helium balloon and use a pair of binoculars. Works every time. NGL From: Data Technology Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:06 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just did a ptp install of 5g 2ft rocket dishs at 6.47 miles and could not see either tower. Now I already had a ptp link to another tower from tower 1 so this helped. I used Google Earth to map out the points and then used the ruler to connect each ptp link. I took the map with me on tower 1 and mounted and aligned the dish. I just eyeballed the direction of the dish in relation to the existing dish using the Google map. I got everything powered up and then went to tower 2. At tower 2 I had a landmark that I thought was close to the right direction. Mounted dish and pointed at landmark and had a signal. I then aligned dish while guy on ground gave signal reports. I have not gone back up on tower 1 yet to tweak dish. I actually have a 67 signal when lingowave said it should be 57 so I do need to align dish on tower 1. I did not want to believe Google maps at first but when I actually got up on tower I could tell it was about right. I have tried using a compass but on a tower the compass will not work correctly. Guess the metal structure throws the magnetic field off. On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the DTISP MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
How about a bunch of little balloons with promotional advertising on the balloons? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 11:42 AM, ~NGL~ wrote: I run up a 3 foot helium balloon and use a pair of binoculars. Works every time. NGL From: Data Technology Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:06 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just did a ptp install of 5g 2ft rocket dishs at 6.47 miles and could not see either tower. Now I already had a ptp link to another tower from tower 1 so this helped. I used Google Earth to map out the points and then used the ruler to connect each ptp link. I took the map with me on tower 1 and mounted and aligned the dish. I just eyeballed the direction of the dish in relation to the existing dish using the Google map. I got everything powered up and then went to tower 2. At tower 2 I had a landmark that I thought was close to the right direction. Mounted dish and pointed at landmark and had a signal. I then aligned dish while guy on ground gave signal reports. I have not gone back up on tower 1 yet to tweak dish. I actually have a 67 signal when lingowave said it should be 57 so I do need to align dish on tower 1. I did not want to believe Google maps at first but when I actually got up on tower I could tell it was about right. I have tried using a compass but on a tower the compass will not work correctly. Guess the metal structure throws the magnetic field off. On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the DTISP MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
WispMon Pro has a phone app that will tell you distance and bearing to any of the towers in your database from your current location and plot it for you on a map. We are toying with making the app available for a small price to the general public, but it will need some mods so you can enter your tower locations manually and store them in a local file/db on the phone. Hit me offlist if you are interested and we'll try to get it out quicker if there is a big show of hands. Regards, Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.comwrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Cool Idea. On 10/19/2010 11:12 AM, ~NGL~ wrote: I run up a 3 foot helium balloon and use a pair of binoculars. Works every time. NGL *From:* Data Technology mailto:w...@dtisp.com *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:06 AM *To:* WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just did a ptp install of 5g 2ft rocket dishs at 6.47 miles and could not see either tower. Now I already had a ptp link to another tower from tower 1 so this helped. I used Google Earth to map out the points and then used the ruler to connect each ptp link. I took the map with me on tower 1 and mounted and aligned the dish. I just eyeballed the direction of the dish in relation to the existing dish using the Google map. I got everything powered up and then went to tower 2. At tower 2 I had a landmark that I thought was close to the right direction. Mounted dish and pointed at landmark and had a signal. I then aligned dish while guy on ground gave signal reports. I have not gone back up on tower 1 yet to tweak dish. I actually have a 67 signal when lingowave said it should be 57 so I do need to align dish on tower 1. I did not want to believe Google maps at first but when I actually got up on tower I could tell it was about right. I have tried using a compass but on a tower the compass will not work correctly. Guess the metal structure throws the magnetic field off. On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the *DTISP MailScanner* http://www.dtisp.com/, and is believed to be clean. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the *DTISP MailScanner* http://www.dtisp.com/, and is believed to be clean. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
The phone app will also run LOS profiles between your location and a chosen tower...FYI. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Cameron Crum cc...@wispmon.com wrote: WispMon Pro has a phone app that will tell you distance and bearing to any of the towers in your database from your current location and plot it for you on a map. We are toying with making the app available for a small price to the general public, but it will need some mods so you can enter your tower locations manually and store them in a local file/db on the phone. Hit me offlist if you are interested and we'll try to get it out quicker if there is a big show of hands. Regards, Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.comwrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Where is this app? :-p - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 10/19/2010 11:20 AM, Cameron Crum wrote: WispMon Pro has a phone app that will tell you distance and bearing to any of the towers in your database from your current location and plot it for you on a map. We are toying with making the app available for a small price to the general public, but it will need some mods so you can enter your tower locations manually and store them in a local file/db on the phone. Hit me offlist if you are interested and we'll try to get it out quicker if there is a big show of hands. Regards, Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net mailto:markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com mailto:os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Mike, replying offlist... On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: Where is this app? :-p - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutionshttp://www.ics-il.com On 10/19/2010 11:20 AM, Cameron Crum wrote: WispMon Pro has a phone app that will tell you distance and bearing to any of the towers in your database from your current location and plot it for you on a map. We are toying with making the app available for a small price to the general public, but it will need some mods so you can enter your tower locations manually and store them in a local file/db on the phone. Hit me offlist if you are interested and we'll try to get it out quicker if there is a big show of hands. Regards, Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.comwrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Yah.thought I was gonna see this a few days ago.grin Brad From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Crum Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Mike, replying offlist... On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: Where is this app? :-p - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 10/19/2010 11:20 AM, Cameron Crum wrote: WispMon Pro has a phone app that will tell you distance and bearing to any of the towers in your database from your current location and plot it for you on a map. We are toying with making the app available for a small price to the general public, but it will need some mods so you can enter your tower locations manually and store them in a local file/db on the phone. Hit me offlist if you are interested and we'll try to get it out quicker if there is a big show of hands. Regards, Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
The iphone has an app called wifi align, and we have been using it with pretty good results...can overlay your tower location via GPS onto your camera view. Regards, Chuck On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:41 PM, Brad Belton b...@belwave.com wrote: Yah…thought I was gonna see this a few days ago…grin Brad *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Cameron Crum *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:37 AM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Mike, replying offlist... On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: Where is this app? :-p - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 10/19/2010 11:20 AM, Cameron Crum wrote: WispMon Pro has a phone app that will tell you distance and bearing to any of the towers in your database from your current location and plot it for you on a map. We are toying with making the app available for a small price to the general public, but it will need some mods so you can enter your tower locations manually and store them in a local file/db on the phone. Hit me offlist if you are interested and we'll try to get it out quicker if there is a big show of hands. Regards, Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Or SICE AirGhz. It's a free iPhone app that uses the internal compass to point you at the site, which you can add with lat/long. It also has the uptilt measurement built in, so you can hold the phone up against the back of the antenna, and it'll help you get the correct tilt. Pretty cool, but really only works on the iPhone 4 -- the predecessor's compass wasn't accurate enough. Kevin - Original Message - From: Chuck Hogg To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment The iphone has an app called wifi align, and we have been using it with pretty good results...can overlay your tower location via GPS onto your camera view. Regards, Chuck On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:41 PM, Brad Belton b...@belwave.com wrote: Yah…thought I was gonna see this a few days ago…grin Brad From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Crum Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Mike, replying offlist... On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: Where is this app? :-p -Mike HammettIntelligent Computing Solutionshttp://www.ics-il.com On 10/19/2010 11:20 AM, Cameron Crum wrote: WispMon Pro has a phone app that will tell you distance and bearing to any of the towers in your database from your current location and plot it for you on a map. We are toying with making the app available for a small price to the general public, but it will need some mods so you can enter your tower locations manually and store them in a local file/db on the phone. Hit me offlist if you are interested and we'll try to get it out quicker if there is a big show of hands. Regards, Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
That's neat too, just downloaded it... Regards, Chuck On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Kevin Sullivan kevin.sulli...@alyrica.netwrote: Or SICE AirGhz. It's a free iPhone app that uses the internal compass to point you at the site, which you can add with lat/long. It also has the uptilt measurement built in, so you can hold the phone up against the back of the antenna, and it'll help you get the correct tilt. Pretty cool, but really only works on the iPhone 4 -- the predecessor's compass wasn't accurate enough. Kevin - Original Message - *From:* Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:43 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment The iphone has an app called wifi align, and we have been using it with pretty good results...can overlay your tower location via GPS onto your camera view. Regards, Chuck On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:41 PM, Brad Belton b...@belwave.com wrote: Yah…thought I was gonna see this a few days ago…grin Brad *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Cameron Crum *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:37 AM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Mike, replying offlist... On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: Where is this app? :-p - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 10/19/2010 11:20 AM, Cameron Crum wrote: WispMon Pro has a phone app that will tell you distance and bearing to any of the towers in your database from your current location and plot it for you on a map. We are toying with making the app available for a small price to the general public, but it will need some mods so you can enter your tower locations manually and store them in a local file/db on the phone. Hit me offlist if you are interested and we'll try to get it out quicker if there is a big show of hands. Regards, Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - *From:* Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
We have been using it a month or two, pretty slick app! you look at your camera and move around and your towers float in on the I Phone's screen, like right over the third tree in the orchard, etc. Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-Access, Inc. www.cv-access.com / cprofito'at'cv-access.com Providing Broadband Internet Access to California's Rural Central Valley From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:43 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment The iphone has an app called wifi align, and we have been using it with pretty good results...can overlay your tower location via GPS onto your camera view. Regards, Chuck On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:41 PM, Brad Belton b...@belwave.com wrote: Yah.thought I was gonna see this a few days ago.grin Brad From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Crum Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Mike, replying offlist... On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: Where is this app? :-p - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 10/19/2010 11:20 AM, Cameron Crum wrote: WispMon Pro has a phone app that will tell you distance and bearing to any of the towers in your database from your current location and plot it for you on a map. We are toying with making the app available for a small price to the general public, but it will need some mods so you can enter your tower locations manually and store them in a local file/db on the phone. Hit me offlist if you are interested and we'll try to get it out quicker if there is a big show of hands. Regards, Cameron On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA mailto:wireless@wispa.org General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA mailto:wireless@wispa.org General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
I temporarily install a sector in place of the dish on one side and use it as a guide to get me the best signal from the other side. Then go back and remove the sector and install the second dish. I can usually get it dead on pretty quickly. Bob- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark Nash Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:16 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Align the best you can on the first tower, come down, move the second tower until it's perfect! J From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark Nash Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:29 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ _ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
What about the lawn chair and b-b gun? Safety equipment is always important. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of ~NGL~ Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I run up a 3 foot helium balloon and use a pair of binoculars. Works every time. NGL From: Data Technology mailto:w...@dtisp.com Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:06 AM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just did a ptp install of 5g 2ft rocket dishs at 6.47 miles and could not see either tower. Now I already had a ptp link to another tower from tower 1 so this helped. I used Google Earth to map out the points and then used the ruler to connect each ptp link. I took the map with me on tower 1 and mounted and aligned the dish. I just eyeballed the direction of the dish in relation to the existing dish using the Google map. I got everything powered up and then went to tower 2. At tower 2 I had a landmark that I thought was close to the right direction. Mounted dish and pointed at landmark and had a signal. I then aligned dish while guy on ground gave signal reports. I have not gone back up on tower 1 yet to tweak dish. I actually have a 67 signal when lingowave said it should be 57 so I do need to align dish on tower 1. I did not want to believe Google maps at first but when I actually got up on tower I could tell it was about right. I have tried using a compass but on a tower the compass will not work correctly. Guess the metal structure throws the magnetic field off. On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the http://www.dtisp.com/ DTISP MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ _ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
On a couple of towers we put strobes on them and put them on the remote reboot unit. Fire em up from our smart phones when we can't find the tower for installs and such. On 10/19/2010 11:54 AM, Robert West wrote: What about the lawn chair and b-b gun? Safety equipment is always important. *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *~NGL~ *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:13 PM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I run up a 3 foot helium balloon and use a pair of binoculars. Works every time. NGL *From:* Data Technology mailto:w...@dtisp.com *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2010 9:06 AM *To:* WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I just did a ptp install of 5g 2ft rocket dishs at 6.47 miles and could not see either tower. Now I already had a ptp link to another tower from tower 1 so this helped. I used Google Earth to map out the points and then used the ruler to connect each ptp link. I took the map with me on tower 1 and mounted and aligned the dish. I just eyeballed the direction of the dish in relation to the existing dish using the Google map. I got everything powered up and then went to tower 2. At tower 2 I had a landmark that I thought was close to the right direction. Mounted dish and pointed at landmark and had a signal. I then aligned dish while guy on ground gave signal reports. I have not gone back up on tower 1 yet to tweak dish. I actually have a 67 signal when lingowave said it should be 57 so I do need to align dish on tower 1. I did not want to believe Google maps at first but when I actually got up on tower I could tell it was about right. I have tried using a compass but on a tower the compass will not work correctly. Guess the metal structure throws the magnetic field off. On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the *DTISP MailScanner* http://www.dtisp.com/, and is believed to be clean. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List:wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
We hillbilly them up all the time and most of the time don't need to go back to tower 1. Every once in a while we might have to go back and tweak the alignment a little. I use Delorme Topo USA and a GPS receiver on my laptop. Mark both locations and draw a line between the towers. Zoom in and start walking directly away from the tower in the direction of the link and keep the little arrow thingy on the line. I go out a few hundred feet, make sure I'm on the line and drop a direction target to shoot at. Jim Patient Cell: 314-565-6863 Desk: 636-692-4200 YIM: jeffcosoho www.wlan1.com www.linktechs.net www.wifimidwest.com On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Wow what an awesome range of responses. What a value to WISPA, eh? Thanks everyone! We've definitely improved our practices today... Mark - Original Message - From: Jim Patient To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment We hillbilly them up all the time and most of the time don't need to go back to tower 1. Every once in a while we might have to go back and tweak the alignment a little. I use Delorme Topo USA and a GPS receiver on my laptop. Mark both locations and draw a line between the towers. Zoom in and start walking directly away from the tower in the direction of the link and keep the little arrow thingy on the line. I go out a few hundred feet, make sure I'm on the line and drop a direction target to shoot at. Jim Patient Cell: 314-565-6863 Desk: 636-692-4200 YIM: jeffcosoho www.wlan1.com www.wifimidwest.com On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
I've finder this for installs, but I use a tree line or if I'm lucky a square building, land plot, silo, etc. On Oct 19, 2010 6:03 PM, Jim Patient sa...@jeffcosoho.com wrote: We hillbilly them up all the time and most of the time don't need to go back to tower 1. Every once in a while we might have to go back and tweak the alignment a little. I use Delorme Topo USA and a GPS receiver on my laptop. Mark both locations and draw a line between the towers. Zoom in and start walking directly away from the tower in the direction of the link and keep the little arrow thingy on the line. I go out a few hundred feet, make sure I'm on the line and drop a direction target to shoot at. Jim Patient Cell: 314-565-6863 Desk: 636-692-4200 YIM: jeffcosoho www.wlan1.com www.linktechs.net www.wifimidwest.com On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
YEAH, I'm spoiled, since most of my towers are actually 20 story buildings, where I can stand, and easilly move feeds, without dropping screws 300ft below :-) Or atleast one side of a link on a easy accessible roof top. I agree its a different deal with true towers on each side. ITs never worth having to make a second climb unnecessarilly, and also not a good idea having climbers sitting up on a tower waiting for a long time for hte other side to finish. So, yeah, better time management and planning duing the install is needed, prior to the climbers climbing. If we have to climb the first side a second time we try to combine it with other work. For example, if tower 1 is a two day job Day1- install dish on tower1, install dish on tower 2. Day2 - install remaining sectors on tower1, re-align dish on tower1 Its rare that we install two tower with lots of stuff. We usually extend from one tower to a second tower that we are building out. So most of work is only at one of the towers. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment I've never put a dish up half together. I've always seen it done putting everything together then hoisting it up. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Actually not true in many cases. If the distance is really long beyond site, such as 20-30miles, I'd agree. But if say LOS within 10 miles or so on a clear day, its pretty easy. After our tech eye balls the alignment, I'll usually have the tech do a fine align just in case we can improve it. BUt 9 out of 10 times, it was not necessary and maybe we'll gain a half DB. The secret to aligning dishes is to look through the feed hole before the feed is screwed in. (for example PAC wireless parabolic dish). You then home in on the far side area aiming for, positionioned in cetner of hole, and make sure the Ring around the hole appears equal size all around to verify it is aligned. Because the hole has metal around it that has DEPTH, maybe 1/4-1/2 inch, you can see the depth of this inside surface all around the hole. As matter of fact, if we dont get our link budget acheieve and we need to trouble shoot why, we check cables first, because the odds of having a bad cable is higher than the tech getting the first alignment attempt wrong. Panels are harder to align, because looking from the side. Sure it can be harder to align a big dish with radome that does not have a removable feed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment That's not realistically possible. You would have to be extraordinarily lucky to align that first dish without having any measurements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: (sent a message a few minutes ago but through strange indicators I think it may not have sent out...sorry if it's a double-post) I'm trying to have 1 crew and not do the 2nd trip to the first tower. - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment You would need more people then. You can't align the dish without both radios being powered. You could do two 3 man crews, one at each site. Both install at the same time and they should finish around the same time frame. Align before coming down at all. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Greg Ihnen os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: It looks like for around $150 you could get binoculars with a built in magnetic compass that you see through the binoculars. Could you use the binoculars to find an object on the horizon on the right azimuth and then point the dish there? Greg On Oct 19, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first
Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment
Jim that is an excellent point. Its how our climbers did it that we pay. They draw the direction to point on the ground with spray paint or something. Then when on the tower, looking down, its pretty easy to align the feed with the line on the ground. For up down, I've seen them use levels on the dish, and pre-calculate the downtilt. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jim Patient To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Dish Alignment We hillbilly them up all the time and most of the time don't need to go back to tower 1. Every once in a while we might have to go back and tweak the alignment a little. I use Delorme Topo USA and a GPS receiver on my laptop. Mark both locations and draw a line between the towers. Zoom in and start walking directly away from the tower in the direction of the link and keep the little arrow thingy on the line. I go out a few hundred feet, make sure I'm on the line and drop a direction target to shoot at. Jim Patient Cell: 314-565-6863 Desk: 636-692-4200 YIM: jeffcosoho www.wlan1.com www.linktechs.net www.wifimidwest.com On 10/19/2010 10:16 AM, Mark Nash wrote: Question: What tools do you use to blindly put up the first end of a ptp without having a visual on the other side? Details: When deploying ptp dishes... One team doing both ends at different times. The first dish must be aligned without a connecting radio at the other end. We know how to get uptilt/downtilt/azimuth from Radio Mobile. Uptilt/downtilt is easy to do with a simple gauge. Azimuth is a different story. If you can see the site that you're aiming for, no big deal, but what if you can't? We have a number of backhaul upgrades to do in the next few months, and we have alot of fog here in the mornings this time of year. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] PTP 11 or 18Ghz Backhaul Motorola Question
Lots of people talk about dragon wave, exalt, trango, SAF etc PTP radios on the list here. I rarely here anyone mention or compare Motorola PTP800 systems... why? Scott Carullo Technical Operations 877-804-3001 x102 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PTP 11 or 18Ghz Backhaul Motorola Question
We have a few Moto PTP, but primarily use Trango GigaLink for standardization, TDM interfaces, and licensed backhaul. Works well. We're phasing out other vendors due to price features, and not the ability to provide a particular advertised service. -- Blake Covarrubias On Sep 30, 2010, at 23:13, Scott Carullo sc...@brevardwireless.com wrote: Lots of people talk about dragon wave, exalt, trango, SAF etc PTP radios on the list here. I rarely here anyone mention or compare Motorola PTP800 systems... why? Scott Carullo Technical Operations 877-804-3001 x102 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] PTP 400 laying around
Does anyone have one side of a PTP400 laying around they want to sell? Connect version (non-integrated) preferred. Marco -- Marco C. Coelho Argon Technologies Inc. POB 875 Greenville, TX 75403-0875 903-455-5036 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] PtP partnering
Some clients and customers of mine have PtP needs, and it's an area where I'm admittedly not very strong in (and thus not wanting to own the project). I'm looking for partners who I can work with, and in return for various leads I pass on, I'd like to get some pointers on various technologies and product lines. Any takers? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP partnering
What region / area ? Faisal On 2/22/2010 10:16 PM, Rogelio wrote: Some clients and customers of mine have PtP needs, and it's an area where I'm admittedly not very strong in (and thus not wanting to own the project). I'm looking for partners who I can work with, and in return for various leads I pass on, I'd like to get some pointers on various technologies and product lines. Any takers? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] ptp 600 questions
Does anyone know how to disable IDFS on Moto PTP600 equipment? I'm trying to do some lab tests and this would save me some time. Marco -- Marco C. Coelho Argon Technologies Inc. POB 875 Greenville, TX 75403-0875 903-455-5036 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] ptp 600 questions
Use a different region code, probably region code 8 http://motorola.wirelessbroadbandsupport.com/support/ptp/licensekey.php Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marco Coelho Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 9:33 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] ptp 600 questions Does anyone know how to disable IDFS on Moto PTP600 equipment? I'm trying to do some lab tests and this would save me some time. Marco -- Marco C. Coelho Argon Technologies Inc. POB 875 Greenville, TX 75403-0875 903-455-5036 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] ptp 600 questions
What do Moto PTPs sell for now? Back in the day when it was Orthogon (both Spectra and Gemini) it was a small fortune ($12-$15k) for a full speed model, and cheaper to do a licensed link if there were not any challenging NLOS problems.. Has Moto dropped the price accross the line, or is it still priced high? I was just wondering because the equivellent of the Spectra was leading spectral efficientcy, and wondering how that is comparing now to new Mimo class PtP gear. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marco Coelho coelh...@gmail.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:33 AM Subject: [WISPA] ptp 600 questions Does anyone know how to disable IDFS on Moto PTP600 equipment? I'm trying to do some lab tests and this would save me some time. Marco -- Marco C. Coelho Argon Technologies Inc. POB 875 Greenville, TX 75403-0875 903-455-5036 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] PtP Link Through Guy Wires
There's a tower site that has mutliple towers. I'm wanting to mount a 5.8GHz Trango TLink-10 for a 24-mile link in such a way that it will hit a couple sets of guy wires from other towers about 100-200 yards away. I've not come across this situation yet. Are there any issues or problems with this? Mark Nash UnwiredOnline 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Link Through Guy Wires
No. You won't even notice they are there. Install away. :) Travis Microserv Mark Nash wrote: There's a tower site that has mutliple towers. I'm wanting to mount a 5.8GHz Trango TLink-10 for a 24-mile link in such a way that it will hit a couple sets of guy wires from other towers about 100-200 yards away. I've not come across this situation yet. Are there any issues or problems with this? Mark Nash UnwiredOnline 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] PtP Site Testing
I've got a new 14-mile wireless link I'm going to test. I've got a Mikrotik RB532A on each side and plan to use the bandwidth test on these to measure throughput. The wireless link will connect to each RB532A via ethernet port. I plan on doing UDP TCP tests both ways. I'm hoping to get about 18-20mbps through the link. Any other testing regimens you use? It would be good to have a comprehensive set of tests that people do that would be handy for people to use. Sort of a check-list for testing wireless links. Thanks! Mark Nash UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Site Testing
yes. FTP from two identical machines with Intel nics between the two. the MT Bandwidth tester on-board will use CPU time to generate the data, hence, lower results. Dennis On 6/21/07, Mark Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got a new 14-mile wireless link I'm going to test. I've got a Mikrotik RB532A on each side and plan to use the bandwidth test on these to measure throughput. The wireless link will connect to each RB532A via ethernet port. I plan on doing UDP TCP tests both ways. I'm hoping to get about 18-20mbps through the link. Any other testing regimens you use? It would be good to have a comprehensive set of tests that people do that would be handy for people to use. Sort of a check-list for testing wireless links. Thanks! Mark Nash UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified Consultant www.mikrotikconsulting.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Site Testing
You can try using IPerf also. Jory Privett WCCS - Original Message - From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Site Testing yes. FTP from two identical machines with Intel nics between the two. the MT Bandwidth tester on-board will use CPU time to generate the data, hence, lower results. Dennis On 6/21/07, Mark Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got a new 14-mile wireless link I'm going to test. I've got a Mikrotik RB532A on each side and plan to use the bandwidth test on these to measure throughput. The wireless link will connect to each RB532A via ethernet port. I plan on doing UDP TCP tests both ways. I'm hoping to get about 18-20mbps through the link. Any other testing regimens you use? It would be good to have a comprehensive set of tests that people do that would be handy for people to use. Sort of a check-list for testing wireless links. Thanks! Mark Nash UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified Consultant www.mikrotikconsulting.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP Site Testing
Also how long do your run your tests for? I'm going to be testing each 5.8GHz channel under different polarities. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: Jory Privett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Site Testing You can try using IPerf also. Jory Privett WCCS - Original Message - From: Dennis Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP Site Testing yes. FTP from two identical machines with Intel nics between the two. the MT Bandwidth tester on-board will use CPU time to generate the data, hence, lower results. Dennis On 6/21/07, Mark Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got a new 14-mile wireless link I'm going to test. I've got a Mikrotik RB532A on each side and plan to use the bandwidth test on these to measure throughput. The wireless link will connect to each RB532A via ethernet port. I plan on doing UDP TCP tests both ways. I'm hoping to get about 18-20mbps through the link. Any other testing regimens you use? It would be good to have a comprehensive set of tests that people do that would be handy for people to use. Sort of a check-list for testing wireless links. Thanks! Mark Nash UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified Consultant www.mikrotikconsulting.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing
Whats the reliability factor? I've been thinking of adding fso for a couple links now for a couple years. Now I could put 100megs duplex to use rather than waste the spectrum. But how well does this stuff stand up? Haven't heard much about anyones experiences good or bad. is it 6 9's? does the power supplies burn out or the units need to be repaired often? Or are they switch em on and walk a way for a few years? George Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hard to beat orthogon! And for a link that short I'd look REALLY hard at fso gear. http://www.plaintree.com/ Plaintree has some cool infrared systems. They handle dust and such better than lasers. If you want laser systems, EC has some that are pretty cool too. Not too expensive either. marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing Non set budget. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: what's the budget? - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs duplex would be good Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice? Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] PtP pricing
Dear all, We're an FSO vendor - as well as our other radio and micrwoave products. Actually I feel we should pitch in on the LEDs vs lasers - a topic we know very well: - LEDs are limited in power and bandwidth (more than 50Mbps at reasonable power is a real problem for the raw LED devices) - LEDs fade with lifetime, and there is no closed-loop control to compensate this - LEDs don't collimate into very nice beams - LEDs generally are at 975nm which is the same as some laser products (such as our 980nm Access series) 980nm transmits better at long distances than shorter wavelengths, but at short distances there is no disadvantage with short wavelengths - LEDs are cheaper devices than laser, which is actually the only reason they are used. There is no advantage of LEDs with dust, except in the case of a few vendors that have narrow-aperture laser systems (avoid those: known to cause problems). We have LED technology and only use it for very short (a few feet) customised and indoor links. For outdoor links, use laser, it's far better. Using Laser we have achieved better than 5 nines for some operators even in foggy areas like London, on sub-kilometer links. For one network operator (broadband ISP) they have under 15 seconds downtime over 7 years - 155Mbps sub-kilometer links - which rather proves the point. Though we have long distance laser installations at 4km+, those require relatively clear conditions, or RF resilient path. Generally, below 1km (say, 3/4 a mile) laser is absolutely a great solution. In the USA, our lasers are deployed with cell carriers like Nextel, for example, for backhaul from base stations on similar short hops. Elsewhere in the world we have several hundred lasers for individual cell carriers where microwave was considered too expensive. Equipment reliability, vendors differ enormously - caveat emptor. We have installations back to 1997 still in service, so we're good on that score. Some features like peltier cooling (solid state TEC) radically improves lifetime, as laser lifetime drops off with temperature. Automatic Transmit Power Control (ATPC) increases TX power in fade conditions, and reduces in clear weather, improving availability and lifetime. Power supplies generally mounted indoors and DC run to the laser units; though it is possible to put PSUs in roof/tower locations. Generally, our customers fit and forget and just as you say, walk away and leave them running. Software NMS tells you the links are solid and working. Laser certainly has it's place: you get no inteference and high 100Mbps and true Gigabit Ethernet throughput. For short links, laser is currently cheaper than E-band MMW and (assuming a good product) no less reliable. For the longer links, OFDM radios and licensed microwave (we make/sell them too) are the best options. /sales pitch Anyone who wants information or some real-world case studies, please don't hesitate to ask - we have many, including WISPs. Questions/comments welcome - Best regards Stephen Patrick CableFree Solutions www.cablefreesolutions.com [mail sent in text format: advance apologies if it arrives in HTML, our ISP/mail server is the culprit when this happens] -Original Message- From: George Rogato [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 March 2007 08:06 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing Whats the reliability factor? I've been thinking of adding fso for a couple links now for a couple years. Now I could put 100megs duplex to use rather than waste the spectrum. But how well does this stuff stand up? Haven't heard much about anyones experiences good or bad. is it 6 9's? does the power supplies burn out or the units need to be repaired often? Or are they switch em on and walk a way for a few years? George Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hard to beat orthogon! And for a link that short I'd look REALLY hard at fso gear. http://www.plaintree.com/ Plaintree has some cool infrared systems. They handle dust and such better than lasers. If you want laser systems, EC has some that are pretty cool too. Not too expensive either. marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing Non set budget. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: what's the budget? - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs duplex would be good Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice? Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail
Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing
As far as I know, both are very good units. I know that some of the older plaintree gear had flaky tx/rx units that weren't aligned right at the factory. But I've sold a little bit of their stuff over the years and I don't remember any complaints. Other than the sheer size of the units, fso is usually bigger than we're used to dealing with. In the case of plaintree, that size is also part of what keeps the units from needing such exact aiming. I've cc'd a couple of the plaintree folks here. That'll help you contact them. The EC number is 800-525-0173 Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:05 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing Whats the reliability factor? I've been thinking of adding fso for a couple links now for a couple years. Now I could put 100megs duplex to use rather than waste the spectrum. But how well does this stuff stand up? Haven't heard much about anyones experiences good or bad. is it 6 9's? does the power supplies burn out or the units need to be repaired often? Or are they switch em on and walk a way for a few years? George Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hard to beat orthogon! And for a link that short I'd look REALLY hard at fso gear. http://www.plaintree.com/ Plaintree has some cool infrared systems. They handle dust and such better than lasers. If you want laser systems, EC has some that are pretty cool too. Not too expensive either. marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing Non set budget. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: what's the budget? - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs duplex would be good Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice? Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing
Stephen, Excellent post. I agree that every product has it's place. The industry is lucky to have so many options to choose from. The negative side is the options are often still expensive (perception of expense is relative :-) The reasons, is vendors put a value on their product based on the worst case special unique need a customer might have for the product, instead of looking at how the product can compete with other technologies in the space, and price it to work for every case. Meaning going for Profit margin, not volume. I think its because leading edge vendors are underfinanced as well. MMW is still averaging 11-35K for short links, and Long range License around 20K, which puts them outside of the budget for the majority of the potential applications, although the price can easilly be justified for 10% of the potential applications. I can give an example, of I just recently finished some engineering for about a half mil worth of MMW links, and my conclusion was I could buy Fiber for an over all lower cost than the MMW gear, so why go wireless? What I found surprizing is that when push came to shove, when I put the money on the table, Lendors and Vendors weren't yet willing to drop the price to compete with Fiber Deployment /Dark Fiber costs. (Based on planned deployment which was not time sensitive). Take away the now benefit of Time to Market that wireless offered, and it wasn;t a winner, yet. But still MMW works for many that don't have the fiber available to their locations. I think the race this next year is going to be about how low they (non-fiber) vendors can go. In 2006, Proxim set the bar (Like Trango did for Unlicenced 6 years ago), by putting Short range GB wireless ( 1/2mile) on the table for $10K a link, about what Free-Space Optics was until then. (Some argue its Bridgewave that set that price, by releasing a far superior product to generate competitive preasure). This year we are going to see who is going to be the first to be the Cogent of Wireless gear manufacturering. Short Range GB, needs to come down, Lease payments closer to Local Loop Costs ($80 /month), and Longer range shots need to come down below Dark Fiber Costs (sub $500 /mon.). I have to say currently there is little demand to lower the short range cost, because their isnl;t a lower cost long range solution yet. But when the lower cost Long range product comes, the demand for lower cost short range will skyrocket. The BEST thing a MMW product vendor could do strategically, is LOWER the price on LONG RANGE links, to enable carriers to have fast Backhauls, so that they can support buying a HUGE number of Fast Short Range Local Loop MMW products. Most argue that MMW is superior to Laser, if obtained at the same cost. (although I'm sure their are arguements that may differ that opinion, in more controlled climates). It will be interesting to see what Happens in laser technology If they are the first to bring GB to the masses (cheaper), sub $5000 range, or if the product just loses significant market share as MMW drops in price, and it will. I'd argue that Laser technology most likely is more cost effective to make nowadays, with years of the RD behind it already. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Stephen Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 7:46 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] PtP pricing Dear all, We're an FSO vendor - as well as our other radio and micrwoave products. Actually I feel we should pitch in on the LEDs vs lasers - a topic we know very well: - LEDs are limited in power and bandwidth (more than 50Mbps at reasonable power is a real problem for the raw LED devices) - LEDs fade with lifetime, and there is no closed-loop control to compensate this - LEDs don't collimate into very nice beams - LEDs generally are at 975nm which is the same as some laser products (such as our 980nm Access series) 980nm transmits better at long distances than shorter wavelengths, but at short distances there is no disadvantage with short wavelengths - LEDs are cheaper devices than laser, which is actually the only reason they are used. There is no advantage of LEDs with dust, except in the case of a few vendors that have narrow-aperture laser systems (avoid those: known to cause problems). We have LED technology and only use it for very short (a few feet) customised and indoor links. For outdoor links, use laser, it's far better. Using Laser we have achieved better than 5 nines for some operators even in foggy areas like London, on sub-kilometer links. For one network operator (broadband ISP) they have under 15 seconds downtime over 7 years - 155Mbps sub-kilometer links - which rather proves the point. Though we have long distance laser installations at 4km+, those require relatively clear conditions, or RF resilient path
Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing
I wonder how much a set of Plaintree WBLS100 are? 100megs full duplex would do the trick for me. I'm only going across the street 100 yards or so. Twice. I need two sets of PtP links. George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: As far as I know, both are very good units. I know that some of the older plaintree gear had flaky tx/rx units that weren't aligned right at the factory. But I've sold a little bit of their stuff over the years and I don't remember any complaints. Other than the sheer size of the units, fso is usually bigger than we're used to dealing with. In the case of plaintree, that size is also part of what keeps the units from needing such exact aiming. I've cc'd a couple of the plaintree folks here. That'll help you contact them. The EC number is 800-525-0173 Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:05 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing Whats the reliability factor? I've been thinking of adding fso for a couple links now for a couple years. Now I could put 100megs duplex to use rather than waste the spectrum. But how well does this stuff stand up? Haven't heard much about anyones experiences good or bad. is it 6 9's? does the power supplies burn out or the units need to be repaired often? Or are they switch em on and walk a way for a few years? George Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hard to beat orthogon! And for a link that short I'd look REALLY hard at fso gear. http://www.plaintree.com/ Plaintree has some cool infrared systems. They handle dust and such better than lasers. If you want laser systems, EC has some that are pretty cool too. Not too expensive either. marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing Non set budget. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: what's the budget? - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs duplex would be good Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice? Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] PtP pricing
Thanks very much Tom. That is a very interesting subject indeed: I think you have a very good insight on the current broadband/gigabit marketplace, a very well written piece. MMW is currently high price - low volume and there are far fewer MMW deployments than FSO in the world so far AFAIK. Part of that is also regulatory, relatively few countries have followed the FCC lead and deregulated E-band (70-80GHz). UK just has done (three cheers!) Prices WILL come down on MMW as the volumes go up. And products will become more mature too. BTW, we sell both MMW and FSO, we're not picking a fight between the two. FSO fades in fog, MMW in rain. Some of the choice therefore depends where you live! Tropics is probably not too good a place for MMW ... And there are some places where FSO suffers too. We have deployed Twinpath FSO+MMW for some mission-critical applications where 100% uptime was required - i.e. no single point of failure. Sounds a strange thing to do, but the result is about the most resilient wireless connection you can get. Required price points - interesting. Both MMW and FSO technology is inherently more expensive than current OFDM gear. (We make/sell that too). And being limited in range, requiring LOS, there are fewer MMW or FSO applications - an OFDM radio can go 20km, or a few km near-LOS. Right now, there's a lot of buzz about MMW, which is like FSO was 7-8 years ago. It will be interesting to see what happens as the MMW market matures. Look forward to hearing more on this debate - Best regards Stephen Patrick CableFree Solutions -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 March 2007 15:38 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing Stephen, Excellent post. I agree that every product has it's place. The industry is lucky to have so many options to choose from. The negative side is the options are often still expensive (perception of expense is relative :-) The reasons, is vendors put a value on their product based on the worst case special unique need a customer might have for the product, instead of looking at how the product can compete with other technologies in the space, and price it to work for every case. Meaning going for Profit margin, not volume. I think its because leading edge vendors are underfinanced as well. MMW is still averaging 11-35K for short links, and Long range License around 20K, which puts them outside of the budget for the majority of the potential applications, although the price can easilly be justified for 10% of the potential applications. I can give an example, of I just recently finished some engineering for about a half mil worth of MMW links, and my conclusion was I could buy Fiber for an over all lower cost than the MMW gear, so why go wireless? What I found surprizing is that when push came to shove, when I put the money on the table, Lendors and Vendors weren't yet willing to drop the price to compete with Fiber Deployment /Dark Fiber costs. (Based on planned deployment which was not time sensitive). Take away the now benefit of Time to Market that wireless offered, and it wasn;t a winner, yet. But still MMW works for many that don't have the fiber available to their locations. I think the race this next year is going to be about how low they (non-fiber) vendors can go. In 2006, Proxim set the bar (Like Trango did for Unlicenced 6 years ago), by putting Short range GB wireless ( 1/2mile) on the table for $10K a link, about what Free-Space Optics was until then. (Some argue its Bridgewave that set that price, by releasing a far superior product to generate competitive preasure). This year we are going to see who is going to be the first to be the Cogent of Wireless gear manufacturering. Short Range GB, needs to come down, Lease payments closer to Local Loop Costs ($80 /month), and Longer range shots need to come down below Dark Fiber Costs (sub $500 /mon.). I have to say currently there is little demand to lower the short range cost, because their isnl;t a lower cost long range solution yet. But when the lower cost Long range product comes, the demand for lower cost short range will skyrocket. The BEST thing a MMW product vendor could do strategically, is LOWER the price on LONG RANGE links, to enable carriers to have fast Backhauls, so that they can support buying a HUGE number of Fast Short Range Local Loop MMW products. Most argue that MMW is superior to Laser, if obtained at the same cost. (although I'm sure their are arguements that may differ that opinion, in more controlled climates). It will be interesting to see what Happens in laser technology If they are the first to bring GB to the masses (cheaper), sub $5000 range, or if the product just loses significant market share as MMW drops in price, and it will. I'd argue that Laser technology most likely is more cost effective to make nowadays, with years of the RD behind it already. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless
[WISPA] PtP pricing
I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs duplex would be good Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice? Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing
On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 14:02 -0800, George Rogato wrote: I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs duplex would be good http://tranzeo.com/products/radios/TR-FDD-Series Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice? Not yet but they look interesting. Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig. (that one is 5 gig ... but cheap) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing
what's the budget? - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs duplex would be good Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice? Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing
Non set budget. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: what's the budget? - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs duplex would be good Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice? Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing
Hard to beat orthogon! And for a link that short I'd look REALLY hard at fso gear. http://www.plaintree.com/ Plaintree has some cool infrared systems. They handle dust and such better than lasers. If you want laser systems, EC has some that are pretty cool too. Not too expensive either. marlon - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PtP pricing Non set budget. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: what's the budget? - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: [WISPA] PtP pricing I need a couple very short range PtP links. A few hundred feet at most for each one. Something that did close to 50 or even 100 megs duplex would be good Has anyone worked with Free Space Optics and can advice? Also looking to be frugal. But don't want 5 gig. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations - The Future of WISPs
bridging end to end on networks. Its technologies like OSLR that are bringing hope back to routing for wireless. OSPF is not adequate anymore on its own. 2007 will be the year for network redesign. It will be the year that Telcos deploy Wi-Max on every cell tower to flood the air waves, buying into the dream of Super Cell PtMP that will not work to the level that they thought it would. It will be the science experiment that fails, and forces the Telcos to spend all their money, and it will be the time that it sperates the men from the boys in network design. The PTP Mesh, will be neededto allow providers to quickly adapt, so they can fight the war of spectrum claim, without the subscriber feeling the pain. The only way to fight mass scale WiMax is to use PTP smarter, and have more spaces to broadcast from. (Interference happens at Radio not in the air.), It will be the year that challenges WISP contracts that exist. It will be the year to learn how loyal property owners are to their contract with WISPs. It will be the year that the WISP with the BEST and MOST agreements with MTU property owners at the lowest cost, will have the upper hand to be able to afford to install the many PTP links needed to build the MESH above the cities. Its the year Muni will crash and Burn, when the world learns its not the street light poles that are needed, but the roof in the sky. Its the year that property owners will start to re-get inflated values of what their roof are worth, as more and more providers fight for the colocation. The first in, will ahve the upper hand, if they do their job right. It will be the year that companies like Trango Broadband shine, and release their new WiMax gear at industry low prices, and forcing other Wi-Max vendors to drop their pricing to compete. It will be the year that investment pays off, and value of assets get proven. It will be the year of acquisition, because everyone will want the first choice to buy the first in WISPs, as aquirers will learn the hard way how important the first-in WISP's assets are needed for optimized success. I tell you, its been a hard five years. And this next year is going to be the hardest year of all, and not for the weak at heart. But those that make it through it, will become the legends of the WISP movement, and either cash out because they are worn out, or become part of a dominient entity that rules the local wireless frontier. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, Tom DeReggi wrote: Just remember OSPF does not detect packet loss, and does not properly switch to backup channels or switches to frequently between channels on marginal links. So when you use two spectrum channels for 1 link, you double your chance that the link will get interference and degration. OSPF detecting packet loss? Switching channels? That's the job of the radios. OSPF will simply use the links, regardless of the channel or even type of radio. ANY FDX radio is going to be 2 radios (and therefore 2 channels). -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.6/453 - Release Date: 9/20/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations - The Future of WISPs
I don't know if you are right or wrong Tom...only time will tell...but I'm clapping! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations - The Future of WISPs Butch, I do not disagree with your statements. I'm jsut saying readers may misinterperete the post if my statements were not added. If the intend is to do FDX, Using OFDM to accomplish it is one easy way to do it. The question that I was challenging is in what cases FDX is appropriate. It can be risky to rely on two channels in a noisy environment. What happens if those channels develop interference? What channels would you move to? Anyone can get a good link on day one, but what is the plan for preventing future disasters? I'm starting to justify FDX now that 10Mhz channels are becoming available. Two 10Mhz channels has less risk and more options than one 20 Mhz channel. When we first got into this business, we really thought we were smart. We were trying all kind of neat things. But at the end of the day, we learned reasons why the rest of the world wasn't doing it already. Its humbling for me to admit that publically, but I'm a smarter person for realizing it. We were doing a lot with OFDM in the early years. The idea was to use two 10mbps Trangos on two freqs to reach 20 mbps. Sometimes Full Duplex, Some times bonded Half Duplex. The end result is the noise floor got to high, and it was to hard to move channels around, when needing to cater to what channel was deployed adjacent, taking up two channels for a single link. Selecting FDX might have meant not serving a particular direction. The problem is that when a channel gets packet loss, OSPF doesn't know what to do, when its up and when its down. We were setting up OSPF so that they took different paths with full duplex immulated but if one of the links went down, the second path (by OSPF) was the other channel converting it to half duplex in the emergency state. In general we deliver packet loss less links. But its not just a factor of the technology to accomplish that in noisy areas. Its strategy of the WISP. Using more spectrum for a task than one needs to, can be wasteful, and give WISPs less options for selecting the channels that will allow them to use radios that will prevent the packet loss. Again, excellent arguements have been made on this list, specifically by Matt Liotta and Lonnie, on how using 10Mhz channels or GPS syncing with Full Duplex for a link can actually be more spectrum efficient than 20Mhz channels in Half Duplex. In real world I have not seen that yet, but in theory it all made sense. Its actually those debates that got me thinking to start doing more PtP links on my network and attempting spectrum re-use, that I am now more effectively accomplishing. My general rule is Do you need 20 mbps for the link? Do you demand Full Duplex? If the answer to both of these question is yes, and it may be for dominately VOIP applications, then it may very well be worth using OSPF for FDX deployments. But there is risk in doing it. Because if I really only need 10 mbps, or can survive with half duplex, I'd rather know that if any of my links encounter interference, that it only takes down half the customers, not all the customers, because I have customers spread out across more radios. Having two radios operating independantly using half duplex, allows redundancy on the fly, when needed. My end of the day conclusion was, if in Rural or Licensed, go for it, but otherwise I wouldn't do FDX unless doing it with 10Mhz channel size. The exception to this is that when 5.4Ghz gear is legal, there are many more available channels where it is less risky to take two channels for a link. 5.4Ghz will be the spectrum that revolutionizes FDX and PTP links in Urban/Suburban America. 5.4Ghz is almost useless in PtMP on small sectors. But it allows PTP links to go 7 miles with margin. Can you think of it now, 10Mhz channels on 100% clear fresh spectrum on day 1, thats 50 new channels, including polarity. Or 25 new channels using smart Dual Pol NLOS antennas. It will be the year of 2 ft dishes, to go the distance with low power spectrum. 2007 will be the year of smart routing. Not MESH as the world typically knows as MESH, but MESH as the definition, a network with two paths or more. PTP reduces latency over PTMP systems, allowing more hops to deliver the same QOS. Networks will be designed to go to building to buidling more often. WISPS will start to install two antennas as a requirement for every new install. Networks will be run layers on top of each other in parallel, so customers have fewest number of hops to the transit locations, but so more buildings can be served. In other words it won't be one large mesh, it will be many small mesh segments, with engineered PTP paths. This is not a new idea
Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations - The Future of WISPs
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006, Tom DeReggi wrote: I'm jsut saying readers may misinterperete the post if my statements were not added. The parts that you added, though, were specifically related to the radio portion of the network (and you were correct there), but it has nothing to do with what we did (now 3 times) with OSPF. It was that part that I responded to. If the intend is to do FDX, Using OFDM to accomplish it is one easy way to do it. OFDM isn't full duplex, unless I'm sorely mistaken. The question that I was challenging is in what cases FDX is appropriate. It can be risky to rely on two channels in a noisy environment. What happens if those channels develop interference? What channels would you move to? Anyone can get a good link on day one, but what is the plan for preventing future disasters? This is actually a better question. The fact is, that MOST people who brag on their 10, 20, 50Mbps infrastructure don't need anywhere near that. In 2 of the cases where I built this type of setup, there was a real need that a FDX implementation solved. These were not ISPs, but a corporate install where they were doing VoIP among other things. The third one was an ISP and they had 2 links up and running (one in 5.8 and another in 2.4) and wanted to find a way to utilize these better (they were previously just bridged and STP was running). Two 10Mhz channels has less risk and more options than one 20 Mhz channel. This is obviously true and very spectrum conscious. Its humbling for me to admit that publically, but I'm a smarter person for realizing it. :-) I have a hard time admitting that I _could_ have _possibly_ been wrong. ;-) (I guess that's just human nature.) I tend to agree (a little) with the vision that you posted, but that's also a bit off the topic at hand. I guess you get the right to stray from the topic, being the long-timer that you are. :-) -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
