[WISPA] Buffering video.
How come the Windows video codecs don't buffer before playing? If youtube videos stutter, I hear about it. Is there a video buffering software you use and recommend? The algorithm to figure out buffering would be trivial. I have speedbit installed but am less than pleased. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Buffering video.
I wish it was that easy ... When I right click in youtube on the video window (or is that what you meant?) I get a tan box with Settings, and About Adobe Flash Player 10. Settings only sets privacy settings. Do you have something else running? I am running Vista. MIke At 10:28 PM 10/15/2009, you wrote: On Youtube, right click and change the buffer to infinity. You have to do this for each website. *.youtube.com, *.youporn.com etc... ryan On Oct 15, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Mike wrote: How come the Windows video codecs don't buffer before playing? If youtube videos stutter, I hear about it. Is there a video buffering software you use and recommend? The algorithm to figure out buffering would be trivial. I have speedbit installed but am less than pleased. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Reading with interest this thread and especially Marlon's take. I have seen power lines in the Fresnel zone play havoc with a signal. Especially when the wind blows. I have found the same thing regarding placement of the radio. Many times a few feet one way or another just works. I liken it to the black magic of radio propagation. The -60 signal in question CAN be too hot like Marlon intimated. His analysis of the multi-path is probably right on. I don't know what your atmospherics are right now, but this is always the dreaded time of year for me. It has been raining for the past several days. It's colder than usual, and there has been some ducting going on. The leaves are dead on the trees and soaking up that moisture. Installs where I am using knife edge diffraction as a propagation medium aren't as hot as they were a couple weeks ago. The hill I am shooting over has tall grass that is all wet now. The row of trees a mile away I'm shooting over are full of moisture and not diffracting the signal like it was this summer. OK, for some of the voodoo science all this entails, here are some basic observations I've made regarding some of these problem installs. Trees or power lines in the near field that move and are in the Fresnel zone can kill throughput. The signal may look hot, but they can drop packets like mad. Using knife edge diffraction, G seems to work better than B; horizontal better than vertical. Sometimes off pointing an antenna slightly can attenuate a secondary multi-path signal. Always leave a service loop coiled behind an install. CAT5 stretchers are very expensive. It's much easier to make one shorter if needed. I endeavor to make the signal reciprocal, or within 3dB at each end. An alligator station will do nothing except add RF pollution. When doing an install, if possible, I carry a spare long CAT5 cable and a throw away laptop. I try to find the sweet spot before I tack anything down. Like I said, many times this whole thing smacks of black magic. I had a woman call me once from *WAY* too far away. I said, OK, I am going to turn on the light on the tower, tell me if you see it. I see it, she said. Incredulous, and slightly bored, I told her I was going to turn it off and tell me when it goes off. I waited several seconds and turned off the light. Ok, it's off she said. Now I was sitting up and taking notes. I asked her to tell me when it goes back on. She told me. I thought it was absolutely incredible that she could see my tower from where she was. She wanted to move into this old farmhouse, and wasn't going to do it unless she could get Internet access. Guess what? She's one of my most vocal and supportive customers and is almost 12 miles away. Mike At 08:44 AM 10/16/2009, Marlon wrote: Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what would happen. (I always leave 6 to 10' of cable on the mount just for things like this.) Triple hm Move the radio to the west 6' and DOWN 2' and he's got great signal, faster speeds than ever and is happy as a clam. Now one of my biggest PITA customers just never calls anymore. It was a very amazing transformation to his service. Again, there were some powerlines *close* to the path but not in it. Things actually looked pretty good to me. But not to the radio. Your symptoms look like multipath to me. We don't see it's effect very often, the systems handle it quite well today. But when it hits it can hit hard. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Well before moving to the current setup, I originally had a CPQ-19, 10 ft lower. It had a -80 with the same result and I was seeing a lot of retries. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Change from b to g or g to be mode. Turn your power WAY down. That's way too hot of a signal. Any metal, trees, houses, power lines etc. anywhere near the signal path
Re: [WISPA] Competitor at -40
One particular farmer I dealt with had a similar experience. He had a 900 Mhz panel on his machine shed from a competitor (actually my upstream) They sold the boxes to this fellow with no regard to what it was going to do to existing 900 MHz gear. Well he called me and told me his Internet connection was just going so slow it might as well be dialup. When I went to check it out, the first thing I saw was the GPS unit on his tractor. I asked him if it was new. It was last spring. He told me he had a newfangled device that was guiding him in the fields. I just smiled and told him he was killing his own connection. The resolve was to do away with the 900 and put a 5.8 panel on his machine shed. I then built a 2.4 private network for them using half channel gear. His neighbor across the street is a stock broker and absolutely needed high speed. He too is on this network. So, from a business standpoint, we turned an engineering problem into an opportunity. They were more than happy to pay for the engineering and equipment. It works great for them and solved a self induced problem. I'm not sure the guys building the GPS networks are even aware of how much spectrum they use, or the problems it is causing existing spectrum users. But, such are the perils of part 15 spectrum. Mike At 09:57 PM 10/16/2009, you wrote: Well, our conglomerate of dealers isn't too ad to work with, but in our area they are running right at 4 watts EIRP. I got them to agrre to turn them off after harvest. They just came in and putt htis stuff up, told the farmer it wouldn't hurt us at all. I think the biggest issue is that we are on the same structure, so our yagis ar pointed right at their antenna too. they are running vertical here, and we run horizontal, but it is still enough to take us into 1X. they claim they cannot program the hop frequencies. they also did say that JD is coming out with a new radio this spring and they have some big incentives to upgrade. the dealer didn't know what frequency it was, but he said he had to register each site with the FCC. could be whitespace i suppose, but i didn't think that anything was ready there yet, otherwise 3650 comes to mind. The machinery only needs to receive 1 of 10 transmissions, so they can deal with a lot. On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote: I'm installing an AP soon on a grain leg that has one of those on it. What type of problems have you seen with them? First one I ever have come across, had to ask farmer boy what the heck it was. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Bushard Jr Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 8:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Competitor at -40 How many of you have run across the John Deere RTK GPS Repeaters? those are really fun too. On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Jeremy Parr jeremyp...@gmail.com wrote: Gotta love it. Picking up another wisps overamped Omni at -40 with a 16dbi panel, pointed *away* from them. I thought this was supposed to be a fun job? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Mike Bushard, Jr Wireless Network Engineer DiversiCOM / Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC 320-256-WISP (9477) WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Mike Bushard, Jr Wireless Network Engineer DiversiCOM / Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC 320-256-WISP (9477) WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe
[WISPA] For sale items - was - DIY Special - Tranzeo shells
While not being sure how unbridled for sale posts might get, I second the belief the casual way it has been conducted has been in good taste. Perhaps a Friday only stipulation on a trial basis would suit most members. If it gets excessive, it can be banned -- again. My observation is the ones I've seen posted seemed to be used and overstock items offered to other list members. Most would attract at least a portion of the list members. I've seen no bald faced pitches. Mike At 09:29 PM 10/17/2009, you wrote: But your concern is a very valid one. I agree that For Sale should be separate from the normal list, I've seen other lists that become pointless due to all the ads. However, with no alternative I can fault no one for posting and I actually appreciate the laid back way the posts have been, never in your face. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 6:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] DIY Special - Tranzeo shells Your idea is a fine one. I'm not complaining about Matt's ad. It's just that I got a slap for doing the same. On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I understand the need for not having postings of for sale items, you can easily get 90% of all postings being that but we should have possibly a separate list of wanted and for sale items or maybe even just a page to post them on that gets wiped after 30 days? Members of the list only, of course, no vendor sale items. That's my take on it at least. As Matt says, he would rather sell to a member of the group before going outside with it and I see and agree on his feelings on that. With not listing here then how else can he offer to the people he thinks would better appreciate what he no longer needs? In my opinion, we should have an outlet to the group only to post things. Does anyone else feel the same on this or am I living inside my own little world yet again? I took my medication, I checked, so maybe this isn't really a bad idea.? Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 1:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] DIY Special - Tranzeo shells Jack, didnt you say this is not the place for this? On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Matt Larsen - Lists li...@manageisp.com wrote: Hi all, I am upgrading my network to OFDM 10mhz channels and phasing out my 802.11b systems. I have a bunch of older model Tranzeo radios that I am looking to liquidate and wanted to let people on the WISPA lists know about them before I put them on ebay or our upcoming Used Tranzeo site. This is what I have on hand right now CPE200-19 28 CPE200-15 82 CPE200-N16 CPE80-15 144 CPE80-N 42 I'm asking $35 each for the CPE200-15 and CPE200-N, $40 each for the CPE200-19 and $25 each for the CPE80 units.If you buy 10 units, I'll throw an extra radio (with no hardware or POE) in on the order.These will be reset to defaults and will come with mounting hardware and the weatherproof covers for the ethernet and either the older style Tranzeo POE units or Nanostation POEs. These are all working pulls, but there might be a few wonky units in there, hence the extra radio on orders of 10. If you don't want to use the Tranzeo internals, it is a pretty simple process to split the cases and put in Mikrotik radio boards. I am also looking to buy Tranzeo CPQ, 5A, SL2 and SL5 radios. Payment via Paypal or credit card is acceptable. Contact me offlist if you have any interest. Thanks! Matt Larsen vistabeam.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe
[WISPA] Gotta Have
I have learned a lot from this list. I think there is some real talent lurking here. We all have discovered certain things which just make life as a WISP easier. I think it would be beneficial to list participants in general if there was a thread which contained a description and use of something you find invaluable -- hardware, software etc ... you would like to share with the group. I'll start: what: EZRJ-45 connector system where: www.ezrj45.com why: As my eyes get older, and especially in low light situations, I find it very difficult to get all those individual conductors on a CAT5 run in the right order while crimping an end. This is a quite ingenious system. The plugs have holes all the way through. You can verify the color code easily BEFORE crimping and cutting the tags. It takes a special crimp tool which has a pair of blades that cut the tags as it crimps the connector in place. Maybe not a time saver in my case, but definitely a GRIEF saver. I've not miswired an Ethernet plug since I started using this system. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Gotta Have
They DO sell shielded. Part PLT-100020-050 Look further down the list at: www.ezrj45.com At 11:13 AM 10/18/2009, you wrote: Yeah, those are awesome. I wish they had shielded connectors as well. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:01 AM Subject: [WISPA] Gotta Have I have learned a lot from this list. I think there is some real talent lurking here. We all have discovered certain things which just make life as a WISP easier. I think it would be beneficial to list participants in general if there was a thread which contained a description and use of something you find invaluable -- hardware, software etc ... you would like to share with the group. I'll start: what: EZRJ-45 connector system where: www.ezrj45.com why: As my eyes get older, and especially in low light situations, I find it very difficult to get all those individual conductors on a CAT5 run in the right order while crimping an end. This is a quite ingenious system. The plugs have holes all the way through. You can verify the color code easily BEFORE crimping and cutting the tags. It takes a special crimp tool which has a pair of blades that cut the tags as it crimps the connector in place. Maybe not a time saver in my case, but definitely a GRIEF saver. I've not miswired an Ethernet plug since I started using this system. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Gotta Have
I gotta agree. One other nice thing with the EZRJ45 system is because the wires stick out the end of the plug as far as you want. You can verify the order, or pull them out and push them back in. THEN, you can grab the excess and pull until the jacket is as far up the plug as possible, THEN crimp. I can't tell you how many crimps I've come across where the technician didn't get the jacket crimped and a mm of strands shows before the plug. They also work with either stranded or solid wire so you don't have to have both or KNOW the difference between pointed or spade crimp points. I put the inventor of this crimp system in the same league as the geek who came up with sticky notes. Mike At 07:27 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: I don't care how much they cost. One crimp, gone. Phil WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Gotta Have
what: wonderpole 40' fiberglass push up pole where: http://www.wonderpole.com/wp640_630.html why:It is easy to take a telescoping pole to a site survey and put a panel up in air for testing. I don't push mine out to 40' often, and not for long, but regularly push it up 26' or so to do a test. Well made, reasonably priced, and made in the good old USA. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Rick: Why did it solve the problem? Better side lobe attenuation? 'Splain Lucy. Mike At 08:42 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: I fixed a nasty multipath issue for one of my subs by using a yagi. Here are some good sources for info: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1121691 www.crystalcomltd.com/...whitepapers/124102032509Berkeley_Multipath.pdf http://www.rfengineer.net/1171/rf-basics-multipath/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note09186a008019f646.shtml -RickG On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we tried High-Low left right. 100 yards either way on the road and 10% retries and a -65 signal. I just need to some documentation to solidify my understanding. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:45 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Is that a bigger or smaller antenna size than what you have now? If you moved up by 10' and increased your signal levels, what 1000% or so, I'd REALLY say that this is looking like a multipath issue. Often with multipath I've seen the signals hold well but performance suck. It'll sometimes kill the signal though. I had one install that has some power lines in the way. Fought intermittent outages etc. for over a year. His signal was OK, but not great. Finally something changes a bit and his signal dropped too low. Hmmm, bad radio. So I pulled his radio out and put in a brand new one, still crappy signal. Double hm I put the old radio back in, left it off the mount and moved it around to see what
Re: [WISPA] Gotta Have
I did the same thing. But, it won't even let you look at the Wiki unless you're logged in. But I think you can check the always keep me logged in box and be automatically logged in. At least until you delete cookies? Rick Harnish forwarded my request on to Rick in Accounting :-) bill...@wispa.org. He squared me away. Mike At 08:32 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: That is what I expected, but I don't see a forgot link. Josh Luthman wrote: Click login then forgot password. On 10/18/09, Scott Reed scottr...@onlyinternet.net wrote: I was going to suggest that. Wanted to look at the Wiki first, but can not remember my login. Where do I go to find/reset login information? Josh Luthman wrote: Use the WISPNet Wiki? On 10/18/09, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: Like a sticky? Maybe. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:02 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Gotta Have I have learned a lot from this list. I think there is some real talent lurking here. We all have discovered certain things which just make life as a WISP easier. I think it would be beneficial to list participants in general if there was a thread which contained a description and use of something you find invaluable -- hardware, software etc ... you would like to share with the group. I'll start: what: EZRJ-45 connector system where: www.ezrj45.com why: As my eyes get older, and especially in low light situations, I find it very difficult to get all those individual conductors on a CAT5 run in the right order while crimping an end. This is a quite ingenious system. The plugs have holes all the way through. You can verify the color code easily BEFORE crimping and cutting the tags. It takes a special crimp tool which has a pair of blades that cut the tags as it crimps the connector in place. Maybe not a time saver in my case, but definitely a GRIEF saver. I've not miswired an Ethernet plug since I started using this system. Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.422 / Virus Database: 270.14.20/2444 - Release Date: 10/18/09 09:04:00 -- Scott Reed Sr. Systems Engineer GAB Midwest 1-800-363-1544 x4000 Cell: 260-273-7239 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.422 / Virus Database: 270.14.20/2444 - Release Date: 10/18/09 09:04:00 -- Scott Reed Sr. Systems Engineer GAB Midwest 1-800-363-1544 x4000 Cell: 260-273-7239 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Gotta Have
Not on a windy day! I do push it up 26' unguyed regularly. 34 foot is a little harrier. They have a drive on mount that makes it nice as a socket to hold the pole. It's fiberglass so you can't get electrocuted if you get stupid. It pushes up real easily, a lot better than that rat shack steel one. That is a Rohn, right? Mike At 09:16 AM 10/19/2009, you wrote: Can it go 40' unguyed? How hard it is to push it up? I've got a similar 30' that came from Radio Shack I think, but I can't get it to 30' unguyed. But, it was a LOT less cost than this one. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 8:54 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Gotta Have Damn, I love this thing already.Good price too, how quick can you put this up? -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 9:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Gotta Have what: wonderpole 40' fiberglass push up pole where: http://www.wonderpole.com/wp640_630.html why:It is easy to take a telescoping pole to a site survey and put a panel up in air for testing. I don't push mine out to 40' often, and not for long, but regularly push it up 26' or so to do a test. Well made, reasonably priced, and made in the good old USA. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy....
Really nice article Marlon. Thanks for sharing. No date, when did you write that? At 09:25 AM 10/19/2009, you wrote: It's probably just blind luck. The yagi may have it's side lobes in a different place. Also, look at some of the antenna patterns here: http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/antenna/how_to_pick_the_right_antenna.htm They are all different. But the worst ones to use, by far, are grids. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Yabut, a dish concentrates the forward radiation. So does a panel, a slot antenna, and many others. I just wondered why you thought a Yagi solved your problem. A 2.4G yagi has large diameter elements compared to wavelength, not like the old VHF Yagi's, but are prone to icing in the winter up north. What magic did you find in the Yagi? Just curious. Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do! Ricky Ricardo At 09:31 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: Because yagi antenna concentrates the forward radiation and response. -Lucy :) On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Rick: Why did it solve the problem? Better side lobe attenuation? 'Splain Lucy. Mike At 08:42 PM 10/18/2009, you wrote: I fixed a nasty multipath issue for one of my subs by using a yagi. Here are some good sources for info: http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/tutorials/article.php/1121691 www.crystalcomltd.com/...whitepapers/124102032509Berkeley_Multipath.pdf http://www.rfengineer.net/1171/rf-basics-multipath/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk722/tk809/technologies_tech_note 09186a008019f646.shtml -RickG On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I don't Steve. But think of it like an echo. You get that first, clear signal coming in, laser straight. Then at some point shortly after that you start getting the reflections. If there are too many of them, and/or they are at the wrong time the radio will get confused. G SHOULD handle this better than B. It's made to use multipath's echoes to reassemble a complete message. Sometimes it works that way, sometimes it doesn't. I'd have to say, for me, g is usually better with multipath than b though. B handles interference better. At least that's what I'm seeing. I have a tower that was giving 1 meg down 2 to 3 up, almost all customers saw that or worse. Swapped back to b mode only and it's now a consistent 4 megs both ways. Another thing to try is to turn down the power. Probably on both ends. If you are at -69 see if you can drop your ap by 5 then 5 more db. Make sure to drop the cpe by the same amount. What you are trying to do is move the echo down so far that it can't be heard. I've also had installs that are happiest about 2' above the ground! Here's a fun one for you. I've got one customer that shoots near a grain elevator. Most of the year he works fine, but near harvest, every year, his performance goes out the window. It seems that the wheat in the elevator is moved out and the empty elevator is worse than the full one. Out here we have VERY long links. I have one at 18 miles. PTMP. Yet there are also customers within 1 mile. 10 to 15 mile links are common place. Multipath is a real head ache as the ground conditions change. Customer's service will be perfect, until it snows. Or until they harvest a field, or the ground dries out, or it rains etc. Fortunately MOST of the time this isn't an issue. But when it does hit ya, it can be very hard to figure out. One other thing you might want to try with your customer, turn the radio to the wrong polarity. You are very close to the tower so you should still have enough signal. I've not had to do this very often, but it's a little trick that has worked before. I've also pointed them 180* the wrong way and had that work very well, especially with a grid. Let us know if anything helps. marlon - Original Message - From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New install driving me crazy Marlon, DO you have or know of a good white paper on Multipath issues? I agree with your assessment but I have several locations that I have not been able to resolve Multipath for. I had an installation last week 3 miles from tower AP. Clear line of site other than going over the Neighbors Metal barn and between 4 metal grain bins. We could get a -69 On 50% of the property but retries were 98% No matter where we
Re: [WISPA] OT: Used Tower Pricing.
The 7N, 6N and 5N will stack nicely if you take them apart and leave a diagonal from each side attached. A long trailer can move it then. I don't think you can easily move a 5 or 6 and certainly not a 7 put entirely together. They are too wide to sit on a trailer properly. Down, in good shape, $2500 or so would be a fair price. A case of Rustoleum cold galvanized and it will look like new. So, if you want to brag (or take your knots) what did you pay? Mike At 08:24 PM 10/20/2009, you wrote: What is a good price to give for a standard Rohn SSV tower, 100' with sections 7N, 6N, 5N, 4N, and 3WN in real good shape, each section still assembled, already down and ready for loading. I priced it new at around $8500. I have looked at www.usedtowers.com, but those are way higher than what I got this one for. I already won it at auction, but just checking to make sure I didn't screw up. Do any of you know where to find used towers besides qth.com, eham.net, ebay, and usedtowers.com? I have a few local places, but I am looking to expand my searches beyond those mentioned and local. TIA, Scottie Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Identifying 2ft dish frequency
Right on. Did you know you can find the focal point, even of an off-center feed, of a solid parabolic by busting a mirror? Yeah, break a mirror into a thousand pieces. Use a glue stick or rubber cement to glue 30 - 40 of the pieces to the dish surface. Using a car headlight or really bright flashlight BEAM, you can posit a die (singular dice) or a crumpled up piece of paper in the dish focus and see the focal point. Cool stuff. It has nothing to do with frequency. A bright red light would work, so would a green one. Yep, even a gain microwave signal pointed at it would work; IF you could see microwaves. :-) It looks like Mark is rapidly answering his own question. Mike At 10:30 AM 10/21/2009, you wrote: Feed length is based on dish size; where does the parabola focus. Nothing to do with frequency, everything reflects the same. Size of the feed horn isn't always an indicator either. Can depend on a lot of things. Josh Luthman wrote: The feedhorn specifically. Maybe the length will help you too. I know with higher gain the 5GHz grids are noticeably longer. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Brad Belton b...@belwave.com wrote: Hmmm, pretty sure a 2' dish is a 2' dish regardless of frequency...or are you speaking of the diameter of the feed? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Identifying 2ft dish frequency Can you measure diameter and compare it with the 2.4 and 5.8 GHz dishes? Never thought about it but they would have to be different sizes. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com wrote: I happen to know they are either 5.8 or 2.4 as this was the only equipment I have found of theirs, they left it all when they went out of business. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. 573.729.9200 - Office 573.729.9203 - Fax 573.247.9980 - Mobile http://www.accubak.com/ http://www.accubak.net/ Nationwide Internet Access Accurate backups for your critical data! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of ccrum Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:29 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Identifying 2ft dish frequency Got a spectrum analyzer and a frequency generator? Or a good network analyzer will do, but most people don't have one laying around. The feeds could literally be anything. You might be better off just calling the MFG of the dish and buying new feeds in the range you want unless you you have a few hours of extra time on your hands. Cameron Mark McElvy wrote: I have 4 two ft dishes that where pulled down when the previous wisp went out of business. There are no markings on them and I need to determine frequency and polarity. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] OT: Used Tower Pricing.
VERY Useful! I am going to make a sign and go visit my local landfill lady real soon. Thanks for a great idea. Mike At 10:35 AM 10/21/2009, Robert West wrote: Scottie, I've had some minor success by talking to a local metal scrap yard. It's a pretty good sized one, they put up a small sign at the pay window saying that if they get any tower sections to not crush or bend them. If they get a get sections they call and I go over. It's usually old American Tower 8 foot sections, like TV tower, but some are pretty useful. They charge usually 30 cents per pound and I pay a few cents over that for good sections in exchange for the sign next to the pay window. A month or so ago they called and I had to go out to a field to look at some that were too big for the metal collector guy to take into the yard. 2 80 foot heavy duty free standing towers in good shape laying in the field all overgrown with weeds. 150 bucks for the pair. Didn't know how much they weighed so I just offered the 150. They will also hold old DirectTV dishs and the J arm mounts for them if the sorters remember. Those are handy to have at 2 bucks each. As long as I pay more than scrap value, they are all over it. They usually have more stuff than I need though. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:25 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Cc: motoro...@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] OT: Used Tower Pricing. What is a good price to give for a standard Rohn SSV tower, 100' with sections 7N, 6N, 5N, 4N, and 3WN in real good shape, each section still assembled, already down and ready for loading. I priced it new at around $8500. I have looked at www.usedtowers.com, but those are way higher than what I got this one for. I already won it at auction, but just checking to make sure I didn't screw up. Do any of you know where to find used towers besides qth.com, eham.net, ebay, and usedtowers.com? I have a few local places, but I am looking to expand my searches beyond those mentioned and local. TIA, Scottie Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] OT: Used Tower Pricing.
VERY Useful! I am going to make a sign and go visit my local landfill lady real soon. Thanks for a great idea. Mike At 10:35 AM 10/21/2009, Robert West wrote: Scottie, I've had some minor success by talking to a local metal scrap yard. It's a pretty good sized one, they put up a small sign at the pay window saying that if they get any tower sections to not crush or bend them. If they get a get sections they call and I go over. It's usually old American Tower 8 foot sections, like TV tower, but some are pretty useful. They charge usually 30 cents per pound and I pay a few cents over that for good sections in exchange for the sign next to the pay window. A month or so ago they called and I had to go out to a field to look at some that were too big for the metal collector guy to take into the yard. 2 80 foot heavy duty free standing towers in good shape laying in the field all overgrown with weeds. 150 bucks for the pair. Didn't know how much they weighed so I just offered the 150. They will also hold old DirectTV dishs and the J arm mounts for them if the sorters remember. Those are handy to have at 2 bucks each. As long as I pay more than scrap value, they are all over it. They usually have more stuff than I need though. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:25 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Cc: motoro...@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] OT: Used Tower Pricing. What is a good price to give for a standard Rohn SSV tower, 100' with sections 7N, 6N, 5N, 4N, and 3WN in real good shape, each section still assembled, already down and ready for loading. I priced it new at around $8500. I have looked at www.usedtowers.com, but those are way higher than what I got this one for. I already won it at auction, but just checking to make sure I didn't screw up. Do any of you know where to find used towers besides qth.com, eham.net, ebay, and usedtowers.com? I have a few local places, but I am looking to expand my searches beyond those mentioned and local. TIA, Scottie Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] OT: Used Tower Pricing.
Never seen the aluminum ones. Every Dish/Direct dish mount I've seen are epoxy paint coated steel. At 05:54 PM 10/21/2009, you wrote: It comes from being a cheap S.O.B. Those J mounts aren't cheap new but the used ones for 2 bucks are usually perfect. A little WD-40 on the adjuster and it's all good. I don't know what they're made of, maybe some aluminum alloy but they are really light, I doubt they have much value as scrap so the 2 bucks is probably more than equitable for them. This is a metal yard that I deal with. Have the landfill lady hint to the junk collectors that good tower sections not bent or damaged much might bring more cash. They get really careful if they think they might make an extra 50 cents. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 3:06 PM To: WISPA General List; sarn...@info-ed.com; 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] OT: Used Tower Pricing. VERY Useful! I am going to make a sign and go visit my local landfill lady real soon. Thanks for a great idea. Mike At 10:35 AM 10/21/2009, Robert West wrote: Scottie, I've had some minor success by talking to a local metal scrap yard. It's a pretty good sized one, they put up a small sign at the pay window saying that if they get any tower sections to not crush or bend them. If they get a get sections they call and I go over. It's usually old American Tower 8 foot sections, like TV tower, but some are pretty useful. They charge usually 30 cents per pound and I pay a few cents over that for good sections in exchange for the sign next to the pay window. A month or so ago they called and I had to go out to a field to look at some that were too big for the metal collector guy to take into the yard. 2 80 foot heavy duty free standing towers in good shape laying in the field all overgrown with weeds. 150 bucks for the pair. Didn't know how much they weighed so I just offered the 150. They will also hold old DirectTV dishs and the J arm mounts for them if the sorters remember. Those are handy to have at 2 bucks each. As long as I pay more than scrap value, they are all over it. They usually have more stuff than I need though. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 9:25 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Cc: motoro...@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] OT: Used Tower Pricing. What is a good price to give for a standard Rohn SSV tower, 100' with sections 7N, 6N, 5N, 4N, and 3WN in real good shape, each section still assembled, already down and ready for loading. I priced it new at around $8500. I have looked at www.usedtowers.com, but those are way higher than what I got this one for. I already won it at auction, but just checking to make sure I didn't screw up. Do any of you know where to find used towers besides qth.com, eham.net, ebay, and usedtowers.com? I have a few local places, but I am looking to expand my searches beyond those mentioned and local. TIA, Scottie Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA
[WISPA] Canopy AND WiFi beater! -- Retro Encabulator
Rockwell Collins, over in Cedar Rapids apparently finally got the retro encambulator perfected. It works way better than Canopy, and makes a laughing stock of WiFi. How many should I buy? Mike http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVVKEsPeLtIhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVVKEsPeLtI WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
U, only partially. The old TV antennas were combo antennas that usually had a log periodic antenna for VHF and some sort of arrangement for UHF, usually a corner reflector, bow tie or something. Because they were designed to be so wide band, they were huge. Any 700 MHz antenna will be MUCH smaller. TV channel 2 is 54 MHz, where a half wave dipole (or log periodic element) is 8.6 feet long. That would be the longest element on a TV antenna and the reason they were so big. The white space is also called the 700 MHz band. A 700 MHz dipole is 8 inches long, and a 800 MHz dipole is 7 inches long. A 6 element log periodic for this range would be a little over a foot long. Think along the lines of a 900 MHz antenna NOT a VHF TV antenna. Mike At 12:20 AM 10/23/2009, you wrote: A VERY good guide to the whitespaces antenna sizes... are the millions of TV antennas we've been using for 50+ years. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:52 PM To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how wireless Interent connectivity can change their lives. The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless Internet. Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum in secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless Internet providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a potential service area to make it economically viable. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond them... so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz channel. Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? Sprint used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was SLOW. I guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my radar of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your not playing the game. Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! See the attached Case Study and Press Release. jack Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut Network Using 'White Spaces' John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with TDF Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband network in rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV channels. House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who represents rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a Webcast with residents
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a do all antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a TV-sized antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not impossible, just more complicated. Cameron Mike wrote: At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white space. Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen about enormous antennas in the white space is ludicrous. Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. Mike At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter antennas? Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Gino Villarini mailto:g...@aeronetpr.comg...@aeronetpr.com Reply-To: WISPA General List
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Cameron: Great, some good dialogue. When I used the example of a LPDA or Yagi, I was trying to scale the antenna to something easy to visualize. Everyone knows what a Yagi, or as has been used as example -- the TV antenna or log periodic look like. 1/4 wave and 1/2 wave radiator lengths are easy to calculate AND visualize. The solution will no doubt be other than either. Necessity is the mother of invention. If you build it they will come. Most potential customers that would benefit from a 2 1/2 foot by 2 1/2 foot panel antenna, at least in my market, wouldn't balk at such a device if it meant they could finally get Internet. I still believe there are many great innovations in antenna technology still to come. I believe one innovation will be new ways of laying out the elements in a multi-element patch. If you can increase the capture area or aperture of a radiator, it will respond to signals more easily. Maybe some sort of fractal element is the answer. I think circular polarity at UHF frequencies also has great potential. You could reuse frequencies by deploying opposite polarity sense; A left hand circularly polarized signal would be -20 dBc when looking at a right hand circular polarity source. Either a vertically or horizontally polarized signal would be -8 dBc when received by either left or right. Another thing not to lose sight of is that lower practical gains will be usable compared to microwave, because of that larger aperture. A 9 dBi or dBc radiator might work as well or better than a 12 or 15 dBi antenna at 5.8 GHz. Yes they will be bigger. Will people balk? I hated the Taurus when they first came out. When they redid the Jeep Cherokee I hated it. It grew on me. Remember the TVRO dishes people had in their yards? Ever lived next door to a ham? :-) Friendly Regards, Mike Gilchrist At 02:08 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, you are certainly correct about the propagation characteristics. This is both good and bad depending on how people plan to deploy. I think that a lot of people are thinking that this space will let you have a self installed, desktop unit because of the NLOS and indoor penetration. My point is that units like these would have trouble on the uplink because they would have low power and possibly negative gain. A yagi, while a good technical solution is visibly unattractive and I know that many of my customers would not allow me to install one. A panel with similar gain characteristics to a yagi will be large (compared to what people are used to) at these frequencies, again a barrier to overcome to convince some customers. I'm not arguing either...30m is way out there, but 24x24 panel is not, and would probably still be pretty low gain, depending on if it is a patch, array of dipoles, or whatever. That size antenna on the roof will be a turn off to a lot of customers. Also, on the towers, to get decent gain (assuming that the power limitations will be very low) on a linearly polarized, broad beam antenna, the antenna will be larger than anything people have seen to date. Yagi's and lp's won't work here. Again a lot will depend on how the networks are designed and deployed, but my feeling is that because of the (assumed) power constraints that will most likely be placed on the band, and the size limitations that will be a necessity on the towers, a given network may well end up with more towers, not fewer as one would assume because of the better propagation characteristics. Lower frequency is not the end all panacea that many are hoping for. Regards, Cameron Mike wrote: Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
I love the dialog. The 34 antenna is a LPDA and wide band. There is going to have to be segmentation in the bands. Very few antenna systems have the wide band characteristics of a log periodic. Maybe that WILL be the normal antenna for the new technology, but it is quite easy to make other types of gain antennas with a smaller footprint. Kind of like we have different versions of 5 GHz antennas, there will no doubt be specific choices for specific portions of the spectrum. Thanks guys for sharing the height thing. Such restrictions on the production plan won't work. If the goal is to allow such use in an urban setting, the modulation technique would have to be able to survive severe multipath. I'll have to think about the AP on the ground and the client on the roof. Does that make sense? It would certainly keep interference to the AP down. Mike At 02:22 PM 10/23/2009, Mike Hammett wrote: Due to the number of channels and the likelihood of channel bonding, there's not going to be an antenna that covers from 692 - 698 MHz, then another that covers 686 - 692 MHz. it also depends on the area. Maybe the broadcasters are all sitting on channels 35 - 50, forcing you to use the lower UHF and VHF channels. It is possible (hopefully) that we'll have gear that does 3, 4, 5 channels bonded together. http://www.winegarddirect.com/cview.asp?d=winegard-television-(tv)-antennasc=UHF%20Only%20Antennas That page will have antenna sizes and gains for TV UHF and VHF antenna. A 22x34 only has a 9 - 11.5 dB gain. A 32x27x93 only has 12 - 16 dB gain. Those are only UHF. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 2:06 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a do all antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a TV-sized antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Thanks Jack. I am looking forward to your insight. Mike Hammett was already so kind by referring to a wiki in a previous post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio) Mike At 02:31 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, I'm just finishing up work on WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing which is due today but hang with me for another hour or so and I'll give you some background information about the FCC's TV White Space rules as they currently stand. Once you have the context (full view of the rules) I think you'll have a better view of why larger (TV-type) antennas may be required for most future TV White Space operators. No new understanding of physics is needed; just an understanding of the current FCC rules, an understanding of what channels may be available in what areas, and an understanding of why you probably won't be able to simply pick a UHF channel and simply dwell on it. jack Mike wrote: Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a do all antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Mike, You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a TV-sized antenna is correct. jack Mike Hammett wrote: The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 meters for AP use. Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule set, minus a few reserved channels). Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed this at FISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for fixed wireless are what cause me to want to play in this band instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size of an antenna, not some miniaturized or rabbit ear antenna. Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge monstrosities; they aren't. For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around 44,000 miles. REALLY! Mike At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: It is not ludacrous. Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably get away with smaller antennas on the towers, but this will limit your uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Very fine work Jack. I spent some time early this morning reading the comments and commend you for a good job. I am curious, how you came up with the 300 MHz number: 300 MHz of spectrum will be needed for fixed wireless broadband to replace the noisy and crowded license-free spectrum and to meet consumer demands for emerging bandwidth-intensive applications. If WISPA had more members it would add clout to the sense of urgency you seemed to develop in these comments. Besides a good analysis of the changes needed at 3600 and the TV white space, these comments help posit WISPA as a voice of the industry. Thanks again and best regards, Mike At 04:41 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Hi Mike, We just finished our work on WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband filing and it goes to the FCC today. The following is a Commercial Message Those WISPs who enjoy using this list but who are not WISPA members should really consider joining WISPA. WISPA members just paid $5000 in legal fees to prepare and file Comments with the FCC to provide more broadband spectrum for you to use. Without spectrum, there would be NO WISPs. Non-members of WISPA should realize that nothing of value (except maybe love) is ever given away for free. If you are a WISP that's reading this, please consider joining WISPA for the low rate of only $250 per year (with payment plans available). WISPA supports you. It's time for you to step up and show your support for your industry and for WISPA. End of Commercial Message So Mike - Everyone would agree with your analysis that UHF antennas are smaller than VHF antennas. Here is the additional information that should help put the TV White Space antenna-size discussion into context. The FCC's TV White Space rules (issued last November) were the result of a VERY long and contentious process. The TV broadcasters did not want to see the White Spaces used by anyone else. They claimed that television broadcasting would be interfered with. In addition, there are already half a million ILLEGAL unlicensed wireless microphones in use in the U.S. Unfortunately they are often used by churches, musicians and other groups that have a lot of political clout. The result of the multi-year FCC process to to decide if the TV White Spaces would be released for non-licensed use of auctioned off to cell phone companies was the FCC decision to allow unlicensed use BUT to create a set of rules that protected both the incumbent television broadcasters (who legitimately deserve protection) AND the illegal unlicensed microphone users (who don't deserve protection). The FCC rules are 90% OK regarding WISP license-free TVWS use but the last 10% can cause so much trouble that WISP use of TVWS spectrum may turn out to be impractical. Here's the heart of the problem and the reason why a large television broadcast type antenna may be needed. 1. TV White Space will work best the more rural your area. If you are in or near an urban area, there will be few or NO channels available. The channels used by commercial TV broadcasters PLUS one channel above and one channel below will be off-limits to eliminate adjacent-channel interference. 2. If you are in a more-rural area, there WILL be channels available but the available channels will need to be shared. You can use one, your neighbor network can use the same one, etc. 3. You will not be able to pick just any channel. You must pick only an available channel (if there is one) to avoid interfering with the TV broadcasters. If only a VHF channel is available, then you will have to use a VHF-sized antenna. If a UHF channel is available, you can pick that and use a smaller UHF antenna. The NLOS characteristics will be worse and the free-space path loss will be higher but you can pick UHF to keep antenna size down if you want (and if available). 4. Now for the bad news. Under current FCC rules, if a wireless mike pops up near any of your base stations or customer locations, you have to switch channels so you don't interfer with them. To effectively switch channels, you need a multiband antenna which is TV-antenna sized. If there are no other available channels then you will need to go off the air. 5. You can see how variable and unreliable the channel-switching situation is. It's completely un-workable. Not only will you need to use large antennas to get broadband VHF-UHF capabilities but the propagation characteristics will be different too so what works on one channel might not work on another channel. This example really shows how the devil is in the details. Sure the FCC allows us to use the TV White Spaces but with rules that practically make TVWS very impractical or un-useable. The FCC just assumed that 1) channels would be available and 2) channel-switching would work. These were bad assumptions for them to make. 6. WISPA has been petitioning the FCC for the last 9 months to get them to adjust their rules
Re: [WISPA] WISPA Webinar Announced
That made me smile. I have customers WAY out in the boonies I have a hard time finding 2 or 3 years after the install. Mike G At 09:17 PM 10/25/2009, Mike Hammett wrote: That's why I don't understand the aversion to sharing coverage, frequencies, locations, even customer counts. Someone could very well drive around and gather all of that information themselves. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WISPA Webinar Announced
That is a great attitude. Are you also a local politician? :-) At 09:17 PM 10/25/2009, you wrote: I work quite well with my competition. ;-) They scratch my back, I scratch theirs. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Holy cow!
Bureaucrats, with ALL of their agendas have a knack for obfuscating the rules; it's self serving. I really like the idea of having 300 MHz with which to work. I hope WISPA comments help make that a reality. Nice work. Mike At 08:38 PM 10/25/2009, Jack wrote: Mike, 300 MHz is an estimate of how much spectrum would be needed to accommodate the needs of three WISP operators in the same general area. Simply stated, it would provide from 12 to 15 20-MHz non-interfering channels. Of course, everyone can come up with their own estimate but we needed a figure to use so I supplied 300 MHz as my best estimate. Further, the current frequencies would also stay in use so migration to the hoped-for new spectrum would take place over time. Finally, in addition to spectrum, we need usable rules for use of that spectrum. We've all seen how half the 3650 band is wasted today and how the 5.4 GHz band is messed up by the DFS rules and how the TV White Space spectrum rules (microphone sensing, etc.) will create BIG problems if not corrected. Our spectrum battles are sometimes WON by getting the spectrum but then LOST because the FCC (sometimes at the request of behind-the-scenes actors) sticks us with some unworkable rule or regulation. jack Mike wrote: Very fine work Jack. I spent some time early this morning reading the comments and commend you for a good job. I am curious, how you came up with the 300 MHz number: 300 MHz of spectrum will be needed for fixed wireless broadband to replace the noisy and crowded license-free spectrum and to meet consumer demands for emerging bandwidth-intensive applications. If WISPA had more members it would add clout to the sense of urgency you seemed to develop in these comments. Besides a good analysis of the changes needed at 3600 and the TV white space, these comments help posit WISPA as a voice of the industry. Thanks again and best regards, Mike At 04:41 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: Hi Mike, We just finished our work on WISPA's Spectrum for Broadband filing and it goes to the FCC today. The following is a Commercial Message Those WISPs who enjoy using this list but who are not WISPA members should really consider joining WISPA. WISPA members just paid $5000 in legal fees to prepare and file Comments with the FCC to provide more broadband spectrum for you to use. Without spectrum, there would be NO WISPs. Non-members of WISPA should realize that nothing of value (except maybe love) is ever given away for free. If you are a WISP that's reading this, please consider joining WISPA for the low rate of only $250 per year (with payment plans available). WISPA supports you. It's time for you to step up and show your support for your industry and for WISPA. End of Commercial Message So Mike - Everyone would agree with your analysis that UHF antennas are smaller than VHF antennas. Here is the additional information that should help put the TV White Space antenna-size discussion into context. The FCC's TV White Space rules (issued last November) were the result of a VERY long and contentious process. The TV broadcasters did not want to see the White Spaces used by anyone else. They claimed that television broadcasting would be interfered with. In addition, there are already half a million ILLEGAL unlicensed wireless microphones in use in the U.S. Unfortunately they are often used by churches, musicians and other groups that have a lot of political clout. The result of the multi-year FCC process to to decide if the TV White Spaces would be released for non-licensed use of auctioned off to cell phone companies was the FCC decision to allow unlicensed use BUT to create a set of rules that protected both the incumbent television broadcasters (who legitimately deserve protection) AND the illegal unlicensed microphone users (who don't deserve protection). The FCC rules are 90% OK regarding WISP license-free TVWS use but the last 10% can cause so much trouble that WISP use of TVWS spectrum may turn out to be impractical. Here's the heart of the problem and the reason why a large television broadcast type antenna may be needed. 1. TV White Space will work best the more rural your area. If you are in or near an urban area, there will be few or NO channels available. The channels used by commercial TV broadcasters PLUS one channel above and one channel below will be off-limits to eliminate adjacent-channel interference. 2. If you are in a more-rural area, there WILL be channels available but the available channels will need to be shared. You can use one, your neighbor network can use the same one, etc. 3. You will not be able to pick just any channel. You must pick only an available channel (if there is one) to avoid interfering with the TV broadcasters. If only a VHF channel is available, then you will have to use a VHF-sized antenna. If a UHF channel is available, you can pick that and use a smaller UHF antenna. The NLOS characteristics will be worse
[WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas?
Wispers: I have a 180' tower sitting high on a hill above the county seat. It has a mix of 5.8 and 2.4 radios and sectors/dishes. We want to install an amateur repeater on the tower, initially at 70 cm (440MHz UHF), and eventually a 2 m (144MHz VHF) radio. The dual band antenna feed point will be at 120'. It is 17' long. There is no microwave equipment below 160'. I don't think there will be any issues with interference either way, but thought I'd tap into the wealth of knowledge here to see if any of you has any experience doing anything like this on your towers. Is there any mixing at uhf (or VHF) going on in the microwave radio cards? I can't find specs that even speak of intermediate frequencies. Gotchas? Hints? Comments? Thanks! Mike G At 06:38 PM 10/26/2009, you wrote: My 24 hours is expiring and I don't want to pull this unit down. Mikrotik's site wants me to authorize my credit card, a process I've begun but my credit card company won't post the transaction for a few days. Can anyone sell me a level 4 license for an x86 machine now? Thanks! Greg WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas?
Mac: I guess we'll deal with any interference coming from my equipment as we need, my biggest fear is that the amateur signal may in some way interfere or degrade the bread and butter. Per my requirements, the dual-bander going up is DC grounded, and the coax will run down a tower leg where I don't have any cat5 running. I appreciate the heads up on the climbing liability. We have an hour to get the equipment ready, end crimped, and coax laid out before MY climber arrives. Regards, Mike At 08:34 AM 10/27/2009, you wrote: Mike, I have many Rohn 25G, 45 55 towers with HAM operators on every one of them. I appreciate the fact that their gear (antennas) are made to take a lightning strike :-) Their DB222 antennas stuck out the top of my towers give me a false sense of security, but any security is better than none. I have also found that the HAM operators are very professional and generally fine folks. The only interference issues I have ever had is when the RB532 was emitting out of band emissions from the ethernet port in the 140Mhz range and did create a lot of trouble for us and them at all my sites owned and rented. Cover your ass and get a release of liability for those guys to climb your tower!! Mac -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:17 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas? Wispers: I have a 180' tower sitting high on a hill above the county seat. It has a mix of 5.8 and 2.4 radios and sectors/dishes. We want to install an amateur repeater on the tower, initially at 70 cm (440MHz UHF), and eventually a 2 m (144MHz VHF) radio. The dual band antenna feed point will be at 120'. It is 17' long. There is no microwave equipment below 160'. I don't think there will be any issues with interference either way, but thought I'd tap into the wealth of knowledge here to see if any of you has any experience doing anything like this on your towers. Is there any mixing at uhf (or VHF) going on in the microwave radio cards? I can't find specs that even speak of intermediate frequencies. Gotchas? Hints? Comments? Thanks! Mike G At 06:38 PM 10/26/2009, you wrote: My 24 hours is expiring and I don't want to pull this unit down. Mikrotik's site wants me to authorize my credit card, a process I've begun but my credit card company won't post the transaction for a few days. Can anyone sell me a level 4 license for an x86 machine now? Thanks! Greg -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.34/2462 - Release Date: 10/27/09 07:38:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas?
Kurt: The 2 meter receive will come later if at all. I would like 2 inputs on the repeater in case we want to link one from another city in case SHTF and we need emergency links to Des Moines or Cedar Rapids. Since I am lumped into that different breed, I'll keep them corralled. One is the medical examiner, another a prominent attorney, so the good will this will generate is invaluable. Thanks for your input! Mike At 09:37 AM 10/27/2009, you wrote: In my experiences with 2 meter ham gear that is around Ethernet there is a lot of interference from the Ethernet to the ham guys stuff. I've never seen the ham guys cause interference though to any wifi gear. Ham guys are a whole different breed of folk and depending on how these ones your talking to are they may be an invaluable asset to you or they may be your worst nightmare. The ones around my area are the later and anyone that gets involved with them end up regretting it later down the road. Just my 2 cents, Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:17 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas? Wispers: I have a 180' tower sitting high on a hill above the county seat. It has a mix of 5.8 and 2.4 radios and sectors/dishes. We want to install an amateur repeater on the tower, initially at 70 cm (440MHz UHF), and eventually a 2 m (144MHz VHF) radio. The dual band antenna feed point will be at 120'. It is 17' long. There is no microwave equipment below 160'. I don't think there will be any issues with interference either way, but thought I'd tap into the wealth of knowledge here to see if any of you has any experience doing anything like this on your towers. Is there any mixing at uhf (or VHF) going on in the microwave radio cards? I can't find specs that even speak of intermediate frequencies. Gotchas? Hints? Comments? Thanks! Mike G At 06:38 PM 10/26/2009, you wrote: My 24 hours is expiring and I don't want to pull this unit down. Mikrotik's site wants me to authorize my credit card, a process I've begun but my credit card company won't post the transaction for a few days. Can anyone sell me a level 4 license for an x86 machine now? Thanks! Greg --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas?
Josh: Amateur operators, besides talking world wide on HF frequencies, have primary allocations in various slots in the spectrum. Besides 440 (UHF) there is 144 MHz (2 meter VHF), and 220 MHz (VHF). 2 meter and 70 cm repeaters are common in the ham world. What happens is an operator is able to talk to the repeater on the input frequency, and the equipment transmits on another frequency. So, low powered hand held devices (or mobile devices) can talk a great distance with low power, THROUGH the repeater instead of station-to-station, which would be simplex. The repeater equipment we are using has a built-in cavity so the same coax and antenna can be used for transmit and receive at the same time. There is a 6MHz separation between transmit and receive frequencies. Mike At 12:29 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote: Can you please explain 2 meter ham gear? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: In my experiences with 2 meter ham gear that is around Ethernet there is a lot of interference from the Ethernet to the ham guys stuff. I've never seen the ham guys cause interference though to any wifi gear. Ham guys are a whole different breed of folk and depending on how these ones your talking to are they may be an invaluable asset to you or they may be your worst nightmare. The ones around my area are the later and anyone that gets involved with them end up regretting it later down the road. Just my 2 cents, Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:17 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas? Wispers: I have a 180' tower sitting high on a hill above the county seat. It has a mix of 5.8 and 2.4 radios and sectors/dishes. We want to install an amateur repeater on the tower, initially at 70 cm (440MHz UHF), and eventually a 2 m (144MHz VHF) radio. The dual band antenna feed point will be at 120'. It is 17' long. There is no microwave equipment below 160'. I don't think there will be any issues with interference either way, but thought I'd tap into the wealth of knowledge here to see if any of you has any experience doing anything like this on your towers. Is there any mixing at uhf (or VHF) going on in the microwave radio cards? I can't find specs that even speak of intermediate frequencies. Gotchas? Hints? Comments? Thanks! Mike G At 06:38 PM 10/26/2009, you wrote: My 24 hours is expiring and I don't want to pull this unit down. Mikrotik's site wants me to authorize my credit card, a process I've begun but my credit card company won't post the transaction for a few days. Can anyone sell me a level 4 license for an x86 machine now? Thanks! Greg - -- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - -- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http
Re: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas?
Yes the split is 5, my fingers typed 6. The repeater frequency is 444.000 with a standard 5 MHz offset to 449.000. The tone will be 114.8. So, if you are ever driving down Hwy 30 between Cedar Rapids and Marshalltown, you are welcome to use it; it is an open repeater. At 12:42 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote: Depends on the band... For UHF 440 MHz, the split is usually 5 MHz (same as LMR in the UHF band). For VHF 144 MHz, the split in the US is 600 KHz (0.600 MHz). Typical voice channel bandwidth is under 20 KHz for wideband and less than 12.5 KHz for narrowband operation... A far cry from the 5 and 10 MHz channels of 802.11x operation :) On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Josh: Amateur operators, besides talking world wide on HF frequencies, have primary allocations in various slots in the spectrum. Besides 440 (UHF) there is 144 MHz (2 meter VHF), and 220 MHz (VHF). 2 meter and 70 cm repeaters are common in the ham world. What happens is an operator is able to talk to the repeater on the input frequency, and the equipment transmits on another frequency. So, low powered hand held devices (or mobile devices) can talk a great distance with low power, THROUGH the repeater instead of station-to-station, which would be simplex. The repeater equipment we are using has a built-in cavity so the same coax and antenna can be used for transmit and receive at the same time. There is a 6MHz separation between transmit and receive frequencies. Mike At 12:29 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote: Can you please explain 2 meter ham gear? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: In my experiences with 2 meter ham gear that is around Ethernet there is a lot of interference from the Ethernet to the ham guys stuff. I've never seen the ham guys cause interference though to any wifi gear. Ham guys are a whole different breed of folk and depending on how these ones your talking to are they may be an invaluable asset to you or they may be your worst nightmare. The ones around my area are the later and anyone that gets involved with them end up regretting it later down the road. Just my 2 cents, Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:17 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas? Wispers: I have a 180' tower sitting high on a hill above the county seat. It has a mix of 5.8 and 2.4 radios and sectors/dishes. We want to install an amateur repeater on the tower, initially at 70 cm (440MHz UHF), and eventually a 2 m (144MHz VHF) radio. The dual band antenna feed point will be at 120'. It is 17' long. There is no microwave equipment below 160'. I don't think there will be any issues with interference either way, but thought I'd tap into the wealth of knowledge here to see if any of you has any experience doing anything like this on your towers. Is there any mixing at uhf (or VHF) going on in the microwave radio cards? I can't find specs that even speak of intermediate frequencies. Gotchas? Hints? Comments? Thanks! Mike G At 06:38 PM 10/26/2009, you wrote: My 24 hours is expiring and I don't want to pull this unit down. Mikrotik's site wants me to authorize my credit card, a process I've begun but my credit card company won't post the transaction for a few days. Can anyone sell me a level 4 license for an x86 machine now? Thanks! Greg - -- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - -- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives
Re: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas?
Josh: Hadn't thought of your question in that way. Amateur radio operators traditionally refer to a band by wavelength instead of frequency. 160 Meters is 1.8 MHz 80 Meters is 3.5 MHz 40 Meters is 7 MHz 30 Meters is 10.1 MHz 20 Meters is 14 MHz 17 Meters is 18 MHz 15 Meters is 21 MHz 12 Meters is 24 MHz 10 Meters is 28 MHz or right above CB 6 Meters is 50 MHz 2 Meters is 144 MHz 1.25 Meters is 222 MHz 70 Centimeters is 420 MHz 33 Centimeter is 902 MHz 23 Centimeter is 1240 MHz This one might surprise you. Amateur radio operators are primary licensees at 2.3 GHz - 2.31 GHz, and 2.39 GHz - 2.45 GHz all mode, 1000 watts! 802.11b ch 1 is 2.401 GHz - 2.423 GHz or right in an amateur band. Part 15 rules state you can not cause interference to a licensed user, and MUST accept interference from a licensed user. I know of only a handful of disputes in this band historically. The rest of the ham bands go way on up from there, including 5650 - 5925, and can use ANY frequency above 275 GHz. Mike At 01:05 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote: Operates from 144 to 148 MHz. When you convert the frequency into wavelength you find that one wavelength is approximately 2 meters. jack Josh Luthman wrote: Can you please explain 2 meter ham gear? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Kurt Fankhauser mailto:k...@wavelinc.comk...@wavelinc.com wrote: In my experiences with 2 meter ham gear that is around Ethernet there is a lot of interference from the Ethernet to the ham guys stuff. I've never seen the ham guys cause interference though to any wifi gear. Ham guys are a whole different breed of folk and depending on how these ones your talking to are they may be an invaluable asset to you or they may be your worst nightmare. The ones around my area are the later and anyone that gets involved with them end up regretting it later down the road. Just my 2 cents, Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 http://www.wavelinc.comwww.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.orgwireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:17 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas? Wispers: I have a 180' tower sitting high on a hill above the county seat. It has a mix of 5.8 and 2.4 radios and sectors/dishes. We want to install an amateur repeater on the tower, initially at 70 cm (440MHz UHF), and eventually a 2 m (144MHz VHF) radio. The dual band antenna feed point will be at 120'. It is 17' long. There is no microwave equipment below 160'. I don't think there will be any issues with interference either way, but thought I'd tap into the wealth of knowledge here to see if any of you has any experience doing anything like this on your towers. Is there any mixing at uhf (or VHF) going on in the microwave radio cards? I can't find specs that even speak of intermediate frequencies. Gotchas? Hints? Comments? Thanks! Mike G At 06:38 PM 10/26/2009, you wrote: My 24 hours is expiring and I don't want to pull this unit down. Mikrotik's site wants me to authorize my credit card, a process I've begun but my credit card company won't post the transaction for a few days. Can anyone sell me a level 4 license for an x86 machine now? Thanks! Greg --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelesshttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelesshttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] Sectoring a tower
Yeah, and the new Deliberant radios will do 1/2 and 1/4 channels. I have had good luck with a mix of them. The new ones with the Atheros chip set seem to be more sensitive too. mike At 05:05 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote: There is no magic number. I have had MT based APs that with the customer usage and the RB that it was really busy at 20 users. I have and know others that can provide the throughput to well over 50 customers. It depends on a lot more than the count. That said, going to sectors can do much for you. And Steve Barnes is right in his post, 10Mhz channels and using both Vertical and Horizontal polarities makes life better. Mark McElvy wrote: I have one of my towers that has grown to 32 subs, This is a MT ap and I hear that is the magic limit. The only current issue I have with it CPU maxing out at peak times and I am planning a board swap for that. I was also thinking of sectoring but do not feel the need for three. Having a hard time finding a 180 deg HPOL 2.4Ghz sector. Found one that SuperPass sells but the quality does not seem to be there. Mark WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.34/2462 - Release Date: 10/27/09 07:38:00 -- Scott Reed Sr. Systems Engineer GAB Midwest 1-800-363-1544 x4000 Cell: 260-273-7239 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 1U case for Mikrotik RB450G?
Cool! Gino, when I try to embed a pic I get EMACS instead of a pic. I can attach one OK, but how do I embed one like you did? Mike At 06:21 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote: Do you like this one? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 5:19 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 1U case for Mikrotik RB450G? I have yet to see one. The only suggestion I can make is a home fabrication. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Jon Auer j...@tapodi.net wrote: Anyone know where I can get a 1U rackmount case for a RB450/450G? I'm looking for something like the Hana Wireless 1U case for the RB493 that Streakwave carries. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas?
Good for you! The repeater is up. I see no issues with ping times to key customers while the transmitter is running. I will continue to monitor it very closely. Thanks all for your hints and input. The control OP lives in town, about 4.5 miles away. He is almost full quieting with a little Vertec 500 mw HT. He is full quieting at 1 watt, with it plugged in. Anybody have an old preamp sitting in a box? 70 cm? I think we need to try turning off the input tone and leave it transmit a tone. I think it would make it more user friendly for some of us old eyed gents. It's not like there are a BUNCH of 70 cm repeaters in Central Iowa. We ran coax down a tower leg not holding CAT5. The standoff is made from a pair of those nice ball socket panel mounts back-to-back. The top is lassoed with a wire loop inside a piece of 1.25 architectural square building stock. That piece is lashed to the tower with stainless hose clamps. Should keep it from whipping in the wind. Mike At 02:01 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote: Now if only I had my radio anymore... oh, and I got off my butt and got a license. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 12:55 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas? Yes the split is 5, my fingers typed 6. The repeater frequency is 444.000 with a standard 5 MHz offset to 449.000. The tone will be 114.8. So, if you are ever driving down Hwy 30 between Cedar Rapids and Marshalltown, you are welcome to use it; it is an open repeater. At 12:42 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote: Depends on the band... For UHF 440 MHz, the split is usually 5 MHz (same as LMR in the UHF band). For VHF 144 MHz, the split in the US is 600 KHz (0.600 MHz). Typical voice channel bandwidth is under 20 KHz for wideband and less than 12.5 KHz for narrowband operation... A far cry from the 5 and 10 MHz channels of 802.11x operation :) On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Josh: Amateur operators, besides talking world wide on HF frequencies, have primary allocations in various slots in the spectrum. Besides 440 (UHF) there is 144 MHz (2 meter VHF), and 220 MHz (VHF). 2 meter and 70 cm repeaters are common in the ham world. What happens is an operator is able to talk to the repeater on the input frequency, and the equipment transmits on another frequency. So, low powered hand held devices (or mobile devices) can talk a great distance with low power, THROUGH the repeater instead of station-to-station, which would be simplex. The repeater equipment we are using has a built-in cavity so the same coax and antenna can be used for transmit and receive at the same time. There is a 6MHz separation between transmit and receive frequencies. Mike At 12:29 PM 10/27/2009, you wrote: Can you please explain 2 meter ham gear? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: In my experiences with 2 meter ham gear that is around Ethernet there is a lot of interference from the Ethernet to the ham guys stuff. I've never seen the ham guys cause interference though to any wifi gear. Ham guys are a whole different breed of folk and depending on how these ones your talking to are they may be an invaluable asset to you or they may be your worst nightmare. The ones around my area are the later and anyone that gets involved with them end up regretting it later down the road. Just my 2 cents, Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:17 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Amateur repeater on a wisp tower -- gotchas? Wispers: I have a 180' tower sitting high on a hill above the county seat. It has a mix of 5.8 and 2.4 radios and sectors/dishes. We want to install an amateur repeater on the tower, initially at 70 cm (440MHz UHF), and eventually a 2 m (144MHz VHF) radio. The dual band antenna feed point will be at 120'. It is 17' long. There is no microwave equipment below 160'. I don't think there will be any issues with interference either way, but thought I'd tap
Re: [WISPA] Long 5Ghz link over water
I will have to second the ducting analysis. 23 miles is a long way over a water path. You can use space diversity by using a pair of antennas/radios at the same frequency, with 20 foot or more of vertical separation. You could try frequency diversity also. Many times a duct will affect frequencies differently at times during the event. You do know grids don't have a very clean pattern. A dish will focus more of the energy where you want it. If you are limited to space on the tower(s), a dual band feed dish might be your solution. You could run 2.4 and 5.8 at the same time and have software vote for the best link at any moment. In the past I built a 20 mile water path with space diversity using very expensive Nortel radios. This was in SW Fl, where ducting is common. The system would switch antennas several times in a month. These were OC3 radios at lower 6 GHz. The upper dishes were 10' and the lower were 6'. I think the separation was 20'. BTW, that was in 1999, and the link is still running. Mike At 08:20 AM 10/28/2009, you wrote: I have a 23 mile link completely over water that I cannot get stable. One end is approx 200ft AGL, 220ft ASL, the other end is 50' AGL, 90' ASL. Antennas are V-Pol 29dbi grids, radios are R5H cards. I have tried the link at both 5.2, and 5.8, but it still fluctuates dramatically. When the antennas were installed and configured for a 5Mhz channel, I was able to aim them to -55, but still they go down during parts of the day. I have a second antenna hung on the 200ft end, at about 185', connected to a second R5H set up for H-Pol which I am going to light up as soon as I get the other end mounted H-Pol. Any other suggestions for getting this stable? I also notice some strangeness when doing bandwidth tests. I can get a steady 8mbps downstream from the 200ft end to the 50' end, but from the 50' end to the 200ft end, the transfer starts at about 6mbps, then slowly drops down to 0, and the client radio (the 50' end) drops. My assumption is multipath reflections off of the water at the lower end, but I cannot be sure. The water is tidal, with as much as a 3' change from low to high, and is connected to the ocean, so there can be considerable chop and wave action on the surface. Content-Type: image/png; name=graph_image.php.png Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=graph_image.php.png X-Attachment-Id: f_g1c41wi50 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 5.8 Omni
Cameron: Your prowess as an antenna designer is well known. Define a decent splitter, and where one might find one. I think that solution would be usable to a wide group on this list. Mike At 12:05 PM 10/29/2009, you wrote: That is not really an omni. It is three sectors meant to be fed with three different radios. That being said, and in regard to my last post, a back to back array with a couple of 90's fed correctly would yield a pretty nice omni pattern that you could get close to 16 dB. Two 18 dB sectors with a decent splitter would yield a 15 dB omni. It would just be pretty big as far as antennas go. Cameron Michael Baird wrote: What about sectorized omni arrays, any of those out there at 5.8? An example would be http://www.netkrom.com/prod_ant_5.1-5.8ghz_vpol_sector_omni.html Just can't find anybody who sells it to get an idea on pricing. Regards Michael Baird You won't find a 5 GHz omni at that gain, and if you do, I'd call BS. The vertical beamwidth on an 16dB omni antenna at almost any frequency will be so flat that the antenna would be practically useless. We make a 9-10dB 5.7-5.8 H-pol omni for ourselves, but very few as we just don't use that many. If you need H-pol, hit me offlist. Otherwise, there are plenty of good 5 GHz 9 and 10 dB V-pol omni's commercially available. Cameron Michael Baird wrote: Tom, This would not be serving any customers, all the locations will be at least 100ft+. Regards Michael Baird I'd be cautious about those Pancake shaped OMNI patterns at 16 DB. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 11:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] 5.8 Omni I need a 5.8 Omni to feed some smaller sites via WDS, looking for some recommendations was hoping for 16 db but can't seem to find any. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [WISPA] Suggestions - paint overspray on solar panels
Are the tops smooth glass? Just use a single edged razor held at a shallow angle and some elbow grease. Mike At 03:51 PM 10/29/2009, you wrote: I have a couple solar panels on a water tank. A few months ago the water company painted the tank, and obviously didn't cover our panels the whole time, so there is a very thin layer of paint on them. Not sure what kind of paint it is, but I can scratch it off with my fingernails. I don't have enough fingernails to do all the panels though Any suggestions on what to use to take that off without damaging the solar panels? I'm sure they'll work better without brown specs all over them. -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc 435-674-0165 x 2010 http://www.infowest.com/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 5.8 Omni
I nosed around the Internet looking at the various designs of stripline dividers. It is almost trivial to make one. But the more I think about it, if I am going to coordinate a climb to hang a pair of antennae, I'd probably just carry two radios up and run them separate and sectorized. If both feeds are exactly the same, half the power would go to each. Receive should be symmetrical, and only slightly attenuated from a single antenna deployment. But, a point of failure, and may be false economy. Mike At 02:13 PM 10/29/2009, you wrote: There are several manufacturers like IF Engineering, Meca, RF Lamda, and such of quality combiner/dividers, but pretty much any RF Design group that manufactures quality hybrid stripline dividers would probably work. These are typically better than using something like a T to split/combine signals. What you want is something with low insertion loss and at least 20 dB of isolation between ports. Cameron Mike wrote: Cameron: Your prowess as an antenna designer is well known. Define a decent splitter, and where one might find one. I think that solution would be usable to a wide group on this list. Mike At 12:05 PM 10/29/2009, you wrote: That is not really an omni. It is three sectors meant to be fed with three different radios. That being said, and in regard to my last post, a back to back array with a couple of 90's fed correctly would yield a pretty nice omni pattern that you could get close to 16 dB. Two 18 dB sectors with a decent splitter would yield a 15 dB omni. It would just be pretty big as far as antennas go. Cameron Michael Baird wrote: What about sectorized omni arrays, any of those out there at 5.8? An example would be http://www.netkrom.com/prod_ant_5.1-5.8ghz_vpol_sector_omni.html Just can't find anybody who sells it to get an idea on pricing. Regards Michael Baird You won't find a 5 GHz omni at that gain, and if you do, I'd call BS. The vertical beamwidth on an 16dB omni antenna at almost any frequency will be so flat that the antenna would be practically useless. We make a 9-10dB 5.7-5.8 H-pol omni for ourselves, but very few as we just don't use that many. If you need H-pol, hit me offlist. Otherwise, there are plenty of good 5 GHz 9 and 10 dB V-pol omni's commercially available. Cameron Michael Baird wrote: Tom, This would not be serving any customers, all the locations will be at least 100ft+. Regards Michael Baird I'd be cautious about those Pancake shaped OMNI patterns at 16 DB. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 11:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] 5.8 Omni I need a 5.8 Omni to feed some smaller sites via WDS, looking for some recommendations was hoping for 16 db but can't seem to find any. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
[WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment
I have been thinking of putting together a fully fault tolerant tower setup. 1 antenna; two radios. Separate CAT5, separate box. If one radio failed, the other would come on-line. The replacement climb would be taken out of the EMERGENCY category. A complete system would be a 3) 5.8 120 degree sectors, plus 3) 2.4 (or 900 MHz) degree sectors. 6) small waterproof enclosures would contain a router and one of each radio. I know on some of the MT router boards there is a fan header that could be used to energize a relay. Microwave relays are readily available and have acceptable insertion loss. Would a stripline divider like Cameron suggested in another thread be the answer instead? Passive solutions are always better. If the antennas were dual-band, wind load on a tower could really be lowered. Besides redundancy, consolidating wind load would be my goal. Has anybody done anything like this? Can't seem to find any on the net. Am I mad? Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment
Based at least partly on what I've learned on this list: An enclosure can contain radios from 2 different bands with no issues. A dual band sector has less wind loading than one of each. Radios and enclosures have gotten cheaper. It really wouldn't be any more complicated than having a spare radio on the tower, if implemented properly. If an entire router or power supply failed there would be an entirely redundant unit ready to go into service. So there would be no single unit. If either radio, or either router died, the drone would take over. Each antenna would have a redundant radio in a DIFFERENT enclosure. Mike At 09:07 PM 10/29/2009, you wrote: I think the concept of combining functionality into single units and fault tolerant redundancy are mutually exclusive. I believe more people have had problems with more complicated installs than more simple ones vs. failed components on simple installs. I think a well planned combination of both including redundancy where it counts would be best IMO Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:05 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment I have been thinking of putting together a fully fault tolerant tower setup. 1 antenna; two radios. Separate CAT5, separate box. If one radio failed, the other would come on-line. The replacement climb would be taken out of the EMERGENCY category. A complete system would be a 3) 5.8 120 degree sectors, plus 3) 2.4 (or 900 MHz) degree sectors. 6) small waterproof enclosures would contain a router and one of each radio. I know on some of the MT router boards there is a fan header that could be used to energize a relay. Microwave relays are readily available and have acceptable insertion loss. Would a stripline divider like Cameron suggested in another thread be the answer instead? Passive solutions are always better. If the antennas were dual-band, wind load on a tower could really be lowered. Besides redundancy, consolidating wind load would be my goal. Has anybody done anything like this? Can't seem to find any on the net. Am I mad? Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment
Those are cool. I use their web switches already; never looked at that relay product. Marlons idea is good for repeater sites. I am thinking of my main tower -- 180'. Scott, I have not lost a radio on that tower in 4 years, but DID lose an Ethernet port on one after 2 direct strikes in a row. Even threw me out of bed when that happened. Yeah, it would be more expensive initially, but the peace of mind might be worth it. It would still cost less than single radio deployments cost me four years ago. How about those dual band sectors. Anybody use any they would recommend? Mike At 10:20 PM 10/29/2009, you wrote: Or do it your way and add this to the mix, and to switch radios you don't have to go to the tower. http://www.dinrelay.com this unit saves the trip up the hill. Small one $125 with auto reboot, 16 port $295 All of our towers have these and a few repeaters. Now with auto reboot on most of the radio boards, it's mostly used to boot routers, switches, or hung boards. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 7:29 PM To: sc...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment Based at least partly on what I've learned on this list: An enclosure can contain radios from 2 different bands with no issues. A dual band sector has less wind loading than one of each. Radios and enclosures have gotten cheaper. It really wouldn't be any more complicated than having a spare radio on the tower, if implemented properly. If an entire router or power supply failed there would be an entirely redundant unit ready to go into service. So there would be no single unit. If either radio, or either router died, the drone would take over. Each antenna would have a redundant radio in a DIFFERENT enclosure. Mike At 09:07 PM 10/29/2009, you wrote: I think the concept of combining functionality into single units and fault tolerant redundancy are mutually exclusive. I believe more people have had problems with more complicated installs than more simple ones vs. failed components on simple installs. I think a well planned combination of both including redundancy where it counts would be best IMO Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:05 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment I have been thinking of putting together a fully fault tolerant tower setup. 1 antenna; two radios. Separate CAT5, separate box. If one radio failed, the other would come on-line. The replacement climb would be taken out of the EMERGENCY category. A complete system would be a 3) 5.8 120 degree sectors, plus 3) 2.4 (or 900 MHz) degree sectors. 6) small waterproof enclosures would contain a router and one of each radio. I know on some of the MT router boards there is a fan header that could be used to energize a relay. Microwave relays are readily available and have acceptable insertion loss. Would a stripline divider like Cameron suggested in another thread be the answer instead? Passive solutions are always better. If the antennas were dual-band, wind load on a tower could really be lowered. Besides redundancy, consolidating wind load would be my goal. Has anybody done anything like this? Can't seem to find any on the net. Am I mad? Mike --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless
Re: [WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment
Have you ever used diplexers at each end of a coax run? I am liking that idea for a couple repeater sites. One LMR 900 would be half the price of two. All the repeater sites have antennae at different frequencies. Mike At 09:30 PM 10/29/2009, Marlon wrote: How high is the tower this is all on? If you run the calcs for line loss, even at 5 gig, up to 100' of coax isn't horrible much of the time. I'm putting more and more radios back on the ground these days. LMR 600 or 900 can pay for it's self in a climb or two. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 6:04 PM Subject: [WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment I have been thinking of putting together a fully fault tolerant tower setup. 1 antenna; two radios. Separate CAT5, separate box. If one radio failed, the other would come on-line. The replacement climb would be taken out of the EMERGENCY category. A complete system would be a 3) 5.8 120 degree sectors, plus 3) 2.4 (or 900 MHz) degree sectors. 6) small waterproof enclosures would contain a router and one of each radio. I know on some of the MT router boards there is a fan header that could be used to energize a relay. Microwave relays are readily available and have acceptable insertion loss. Would a stripline divider like Cameron suggested in another thread be the answer instead? Passive solutions are always better. If the antennas were dual-band, wind load on a tower could really be lowered. Besides redundancy, consolidating wind load would be my goal. Has anybody done anything like this? Can't seem to find any on the net. Am I mad? Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment
Chuck, Have you written any scripts to automate those din relays based on input from another application? Like if a radio or router becomes unreachable, throw relays to take the bad one out of line and put the backup one in? You've gotten me thinking ... Mike At 10:20 PM 10/29/2009, Chuck wrote: Or do it your way and add this to the mix, and to switch radios you don't have to go to the tower. http://www.dinrelay.com this unit saves the trip up the hill. Small one $125 with auto reboot, 16 port $295 All of our towers have these and a few repeaters. Now with auto reboot on most of the radio boards, it's mostly used to boot routers, switches, or hung boards. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 7:29 PM To: sc...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment Based at least partly on what I've learned on this list: An enclosure can contain radios from 2 different bands with no issues. A dual band sector has less wind loading than one of each. Radios and enclosures have gotten cheaper. It really wouldn't be any more complicated than having a spare radio on the tower, if implemented properly. If an entire router or power supply failed there would be an entirely redundant unit ready to go into service. So there would be no single unit. If either radio, or either router died, the drone would take over. Each antenna would have a redundant radio in a DIFFERENT enclosure. Mike At 09:07 PM 10/29/2009, you wrote: I think the concept of combining functionality into single units and fault tolerant redundancy are mutually exclusive. I believe more people have had problems with more complicated installs than more simple ones vs. failed components on simple installs. I think a well planned combination of both including redundancy where it counts would be best IMO Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:05 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Fault tolerant tower deployment I have been thinking of putting together a fully fault tolerant tower setup. 1 antenna; two radios. Separate CAT5, separate box. If one radio failed, the other would come on-line. The replacement climb would be taken out of the EMERGENCY category. A complete system would be a 3) 5.8 120 degree sectors, plus 3) 2.4 (or 900 MHz) degree sectors. 6) small waterproof enclosures would contain a router and one of each radio. I know on some of the MT router boards there is a fan header that could be used to energize a relay. Microwave relays are readily available and have acceptable insertion loss. Would a stripline divider like Cameron suggested in another thread be the answer instead? Passive solutions are always better. If the antennas were dual-band, wind load on a tower could really be lowered. Besides redundancy, consolidating wind load would be my goal. Has anybody done anything like this? Can't seem to find any on the net. Am I mad? Mike --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Nintendo and Wii
Pandora.com is my favorite web site. I can't exist as a purveyor of rural broadband under the present rules if HD video becomes common in my customer's home. How would ANY wireless company, using available spectrum accommodate 20% or more of their customer base tying up air time to transport another company's content? I guess a metered paradigm is in my future. Is that the 'NEW digital divide? The whole thing gives me heartburn. Mike At 01:12 PM 10/30/2009, you wrote: I have one of these it does pandora too I love it Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x102 On Oct 30, 2009, at 1:33 PM, e...@wisp-router.com e...@wisp- router.com wrote: All new Samsung blueray players also support this. Some models only support Netflix and Pandora but some of them also support Blockbuster and youtube. You also start seing indications of TV devices with this streaming support Samsung again seems to be on the forefront. Streaming Netflix, blockbuster and other new upcoming services will be thing of the future. Netflix figure 1-2Mbit required for standard quality video and 3-4Mbit for HD. At least that is my experience with Netflix. /Eje --Original Message-- From: David E. Smith Sender: wireless-boun...@wispa.org To: WISPA General List ReplyTo: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Nintendo and Wii Sent: Oct 30, 2009 12:26 On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 12:00, Chuck Profito cprof...@cv- access.com wrote: Nintendo said to be integrating Netflix into Wii console Nintendo is developing a way to integrate Netflix streaming into its Wii gaming console, according to a published report. The system could be available by the end of this year, or Nintendo may wait until early 2010, when the company is expected to introduce its new Wii HD console. Xbox 360 has supported Netflix streaming for a while, and Sony just announced a similar feature for the PS3. Also older TiVo units were recently updated to support Amazon Unbox, and newer TiVo units can stream from Netflix/Blockbuster/YouTube. And I think Roku still sells their dedicated Netflix streaming device. We won't even get into crazy niche stuff like Popcorn Hour. I think this just says that people like their streaming media. :) -- David Smith MVN.net --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] powering finicky mikrotiks on 24v solar - $2.75 solution
Fine business using the diodes to drop the voltage. Many silicon diodes will show a higher voltage drop as the current increases. Depending on the circuit you were measuring, one with higher current would show a larger drop. That is an innovative use of diode voltage drop. Mike At 04:57 PM 11/2/2009, you wrote: I came up with a solution for this problem for now. I use West Mountain Radio Rigrunners ( http://www.powerwerx.com/west-mountain-radio/rigrunner-4005.html ) to distribute my voltage and protect my devices on solar installs. Makes for a nice clean, easy-to maintain and troubleshoot install. They go up to 38 volt, even though they don't say that in the descriptions. I bought some radio shack 276-1143 diodes - 200V 3 amp ( http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062578 ). I crimped a red Anderson powerpole connector ( http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/powerpole-sets/15-amp-red-black-anderson-powerpole-sets.html ) on each end of the diode after shortening the leads a little bit. Then I put that inline between my Rigrunner positive terminal and the cable that feeds my Mikrotik device. I label the end that goes to the Rigrunner - the side of the diode without the white stripe - with yellow tape so I don't end up putting it in backwards later. I use one for each device. Drops the voltage around .6 - .8 volts, enough to give me the margin I need on my radios. On routerboards that are very close by (no voltage drop due to ethernet cable length) I put two of these devices in line to drop it 1.2v. I'm cleaning out the local radioshacks and building a bunch of these for future use. Randy -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc 435-674-0165 x 2010 http://www.infowest.com/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] New link help
I just put up a new repeater site today. I am using MT for the P2P. I aligned the dishes by eyeball and a compass bearing, and think I'm close. The signal at both ends is -71 dBm, but am expecting better. I am going to wag one or the other (or both) dishes, but wondered where to start. This list has many answers, so I thought I'd start here. The master side, 165' feet up shows Tx/Rx CCQ (%) at 88 78 and varies from 86/78 to 91/86 The slave end, about 65' on top of a power pole shows Tx/Rx CCQ (%) at 84/90 and the Tx varies from 76 to 86 but usually stays in the mid 80s. Signal to noise is about 47 on both ends. Which dish would you wag first based on these readings? Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New link help
That helps. No, it is not passing traffic. I'll generate some. Thanks. Mike At 12:49 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: Are you passing traffic over the link yet? CCQ numbers are very inaccurate until traffic is going through. They usually improve. Mike wrote: I just put up a new repeater site today. I am using MT for the P2P. I aligned the dishes by eyeball and a compass bearing, and think I'm close. The signal at both ends is -71 dBm, but am expecting better. I am going to wag one or the other (or both) dishes, but wondered where to start. This list has many answers, so I thought I'd start here. The master side, 165' feet up shows Tx/Rx CCQ (%) at 88 78 and varies from 86/78 to 91/86 The slave end, about 65' on top of a power pole shows Tx/Rx CCQ (%) at 84/90 and the Tx varies from 76 to 86 but usually stays in the mid 80s. Signal to noise is about 47 on both ends. Which dish would you wag first based on these readings? Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc 435-674-0165 x 2010 http://www.infowest.com/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New link help
10.6 miles. 5.8. I'm looking for a -65 dBm Rx on the link. It's about 6 dB off. Fresnel zone is clear p2p. Each can see a flashing beacon on top of the other. What I want to know which one to wag first, or flip a coin? Mike At 12:46 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: What is the distance of the link? What antennas? What wireless cards? Travis Microserv Mike wrote: I just put up a new repeater site today. I am using MT for the P2P. I aligned the dishes by eyeball and a compass bearing, and think I'm close. The signal at both ends is -71 dBm, but am expecting better. I am going to wag one or the other (or both) dishes, but wondered where to start. This list has many answers, so I thought I'd start here. The master side, 165' feet up shows Tx/Rx CCQ (%) at 88 78 and varies from 86/78 to 91/86 The slave end, about 65' on top of a power pole shows Tx/Rx CCQ (%) at 84/90 and the Tx varies from 76 to 86 but usually stays in the mid 80s. Signal to noise is about 47 on both ends. Which dish would you wag first based on these readings? Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New link help
5.8. Yes, -71 each way. Most 5.8 noise here is P2P, but is low. Which one shall I wag Josh? I'm thinking the higher side, which is actually easier to access. If I can tweak without a bucket truck I'll save some expense. Mike At 12:51 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: Ignore noise floor/CCQ on Atheros cards. In every place I have tested, the Atheros card will say -105 to -95 noise floor but the Canopy unit will say -95 to -83. Never seen a higher noise floor then -95 on an Atheros card. Is this 2.4 or 5.8? Are you seeing -71 both ways? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] New link help
10.6 miles. 23dBi antennas at both ends. Low power radio. 17 dB or lower. I know one end is out; has to be. I just thought the numbers might be obvious to someone. Mike At 01:29 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: -71 on a 10 Mile link is kind of high for say R52H/23dB antenna...What type of radios are you using? We have one 13 miles that is sitting at -57 with R52N/23dB antennas. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] New link help If it's -71 both ways my guess is they're right on. 6db loss is kind of curious though. Does it fluctuate at all? What kind of antennas? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: 5.8. Yes, -71 each way. Most 5.8 noise here is P2P, but is low. Which one shall I wag Josh? I'm thinking the higher side, which is actually easier to access. If I can tweak without a bucket truck I'll save some expense. Mike At 12:51 PM 11/4/2009, you wrote: Ignore noise floor/CCQ on Atheros cards. In every place I have tested, the Atheros card will say -105 to -95 noise floor but the Canopy unit will say -95 to -83. Never seen a higher noise floor then -95 on an Atheros card. Is this 2.4 or 5.8? Are you seeing -71 both ways? WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz ch save the day - was - Frustrating connectivity issues.
Now I will definitely file that one where I can find it. I have used cringe Scotch locks in an attic before. Mike At 11:52 AM 11/5/2009, Scott wrote: This cable stretcher is only $2.75. https://www.visionaryweb.com/secure/techdoctor/product_info.php?products_id=323osCsid=935273b7a716937f1b96e6deecf47697 https://www.visionaryweb.com/secure/techdoctor/product_info.php?products_id=323osCsid=935273b7a716937f1b96e6deecf47697 Mike wrote: Don't ask how I learned, but I put a service loop (usually 2 places) on every install. I tried to buy a cable stretcher, but they were way too expensive. At 10:51 AM 11/5/2009, you wrote: Then you hope you have enough of a service loop to move it if it already has been installed =) I normally do a good 2-3 foot service loop. I've noticed the Dish installers do around 6 inches. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: No, the black magic is that sometimes really strange things seem to affect links in inexplicable ways. Yes, there is probably some absolute science underlying the results, but they just seem like black magic. I have found sometimes just moving CPE a couple feet or so up/down/left/right can make all the difference in the world. Mike At 10:37 AM 11/5/2009, you wrote: I guess the the black magic part was that you couldnt ping yet remain on remote desktop? On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:04 AM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: I have been putting up a few horizontal sectors with 10 MHz channels too. That 3 dB increase in signal to noise has made a world of difference. I even put one up high, running a 5 MHz channel, and call it my trouble sector. I have a handful of customers I used knife edge diffraction as a propagation medium from day one. It works 95% of the time at 20 MHz channels, with fades to -83 -84 dBm. This time of year is the 5% they begin to fade. My theory is that as the crops dry (corn, beans) they are no longer lined up in neat little rows but become more randomized and change the dynamics of the signal. I moved 3 of them to my trouble sector and they are working great; I know from experience this is the bottom of the barrel, and they will get steadily better as leaves drop and crops are combined. I'm also convinced horizontal polarization works better with knife edge diffraction than vertical. My trouble sector is even on a fully deployed tower with 3) 120 degree sectors at 2.4, all vertical. Trouble sector is 20 feet below the main ones, horizontal, using a subset of the same channel of the one directly behind it. That 5 MHz sector gives me a 6 dB increase in s/n. Steve, how did you change all the customers over to 10 MHz? I guess I could do that in the middle of the night and open a bunch of windows and change them, then begin saving one after the other. Let us know your trick. Just adds to my belief that this wireless stuff is 80% engineering, 15% black magic, and since I don't believe in luck, 5% good fortune or Karma. Mike At 07:03 AM 11/5/2009, you wrote: Mark I have seen this exact same thing. But I bet if you take the radio down the road 1/2 mile it will go away and never cause a problem. When I had the same issue I ended up putting a Mikrotik client in place with the same XR2 board and firmware as the tower. That way I had the ability to do Mtik to Mtik testing and it came down to a multipath or RF issue. I went from hearing from the customer every 4 days to ever month. Then 2 months ago I switched that sector to 10Mhz G and have not heard a word from that customer since. I like no phone calls. 10mhz channels have been saving my life. Steve Barnes Manager PCS-WIN RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] Frustrating connectivity issues. CPQ in router mode and doing the PPPoE, no router behind CPQ. Mark McElvy -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 6:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] Frustrating connectivity issues. Further, are you using a router (Linksys/D-Link/Netgear/Other) with PPPoE, or the computer with PPPoE, or even DHCP
Re: [WISPA] Hotspot Client
Nick, Don't even stake a portion of your business on USB clients. Too many issues make them unreliable in my opinion. At 12:18 PM 11/5/2009, you wrote: So it seems that more often then not I run into the person that is right on the edge of our hotspot coverage. Normally they hear us pretty well, but we don't hear them that great. AP, is stronger then a laptop so it happens. We are looking for a client, USB, Ethernet anything. That is cheap (Less then about $100) anything that works well and is a little more juiced up then most laptops with built in wireless. Nick Olsen Brevard (321) 205-1100 x106 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel
Sheraton South Beach. Nice grounds and excellent food. Beautiful people. At 05:36 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote: Hi, My flight plans just changed for the cruise trip, so I will need a hotel for tomorrow (Sunday) night in Miami. Any suggestions? Travis Microserv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I have unlimited water; 380 foot well. Unlimited heat; lots of dead trees. Working on the unlimited electricity thing. There is unlimited natural gas on this list. Mike At 10:53 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote: I have unlimited water in my home. $40 per month. Travis RickG wrote: For $100 a month per phone and the internet access is relatively slow. Not really an apples to apples comparison. In my home, I want unlimited electicity, natural gas, and water too! On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Travis Johnson mailto:t...@ida.nett...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelesshttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelesshttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelesshttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for. This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are rising uses on ALL of our networks. Christmas is coming, so are new game consoles. I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to trim it; I can't. Four phones, national plan, unlimited texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per month, or about $60.00 per phone. I view that as obscene, but also feel somewhat trapped. Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside. We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network every month. If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air. My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total monthly costs. Maybe it is time to rethink the whole paradigm. Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to do the same thing, or I'd lose customers. I tried a tiered service once. My basic contract says 512 kbps. I let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the moment. If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets. When I tried to sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers. Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty users. The business customers pay more and expect that to be the case. There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural residential users. Mike At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Perception is everything. Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well
Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep CPE on the books. I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al. I maintain ownership. It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee. When you quit, you don't get to take the universal gym home with you. They comprehend this ideology and play along. I usually get them to sign a 2 year contract by telling them I can't raise their rates for 24 months. MIke At 02:24 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past. With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this strategy. -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
Radio equipment is on an accelerated depreciation schedule. I don't capitalize customer equipment; it's a cost for them to join. Instead, it's taxable for the state, and doesn't appear on my books as equipment. It is NOT an expense for the company. Unless you count my initial startup costs which were borne in cash by the company, I incur no debt and am profitable. I deduct REAL capital expenditures (tools, APs, computers, routers ...) Mike At 03:52 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: What do you mean you dont keep CPE on the books? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep CPE on the books. I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al. I maintain ownership. It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee. When you quit, you don't get to take the universal gym home with you. They comprehend this ideology and play along. I usually get them to sign a 2 year contract by telling them I can't raise their rates for 24 months. MIke At 02:24 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past. With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this strategy. -RickG - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
Oh heck no. My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash flow. Mike At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont own the CPE? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go pick up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem insurance. Regards Michael Baird I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past. With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this strategy. -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
Huh? I do capitalize tower equipment; just NOT CPE. Mike At 08:43 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Yeah, till you have to forklift entire towers at a time. Then what? No more install fees, but you could easily have to replace thousands of dollars in hardware within week or months. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it? I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep CPE on the books. I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al. I maintain ownership. It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee. When you quit, you don't get to take the universal gym home with you. They comprehend this ideology and play along. I usually get them to sign a 2 year contract by telling them I can't raise their rates for 24 months. MIke At 02:24 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past. With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this strategy. -RickG -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
I don't think so. I could come up with some sort of number for value for CPE I suppose, but a buyer would look at tower assets, all mine, radio equipment, all mine and cash flow. The pencil would dwell on the cash flow. For me, this is the best route. This IS my retirement, so I'm not looking to build and sell. I want a steady income so I can age and enjoy gracefully. I have no illusions I will get rich at this; merely comfortable. Mike At 10:26 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Mike, Fortunately our balance sheet looks awesome too. Let me ask the question a different way: Do you think your company would be more attractive to a buyer if the CPE was owned by the company? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Oh heck no. My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash flow. Mike At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont own the CPE? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go pick up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem insurance. Regards Michael Baird I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past. With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this strategy. -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
Interesting way to look at it Chuck. I have this simple aversion to acquiring debt. If the customer pays a capital fee up front to cover equipment costs, but never really owns it, I never have to pay lease charges. I own all of my towers so pay no rent there. I have not entertained leasing other equipment, but may a vehicle next year. APs and network equipment are cheap enough these days we just buy them and depreciate them on our Federal return. Of course, I may change my mind once everything has been depreciated and I end up paying more taxes. The hope is customer count will increase by then and that paying more taxes becomes a high class problem. Mike At 09:35 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Let me ask you this though... Would you rather 1) Buy $5,000 worth of Canopy equipment per month at 25 installs per month (new $1,250 in revenue at $50/mth) - Or - 2) Obtain a lease at $3,000 per month for 100 installs per month ($5,000 in revenue at $50/mth). Essentially, you are putting $2k in the bank after paying $3k on the lease for 12 months then $5,000 per month after that. Take this as being done over 2 years. Option 1 has 600 customers paying $50 per month at $30k per month and is debt free. After two years, if you were to attempt to value your company at $500-600 per sub, your company is worth 360k. Option 2 has 2400 customers paying $50 per month at $120k per month and is in debt (based on a rotating amortization schedule) in debt only $110k (doing it in my head, it's approximate). After two years, if you were to attempt to value your company at $500-600 per sub, your company is worth $1.2 Million with a debt of $110k net $1.1 Million. These are based on $50 per month averages, some of you are more, some of you are less. I learned this lesson from a friend of mine who told me the local cable co. is leasing every piece of equipment that goes to a customer. That way they are never operating on negative cashflow while maximizing available customers. Before I started leasing, I was Option 1. After leasing, our available cash has increased greatly offering many company benefits, like increasing our footprint, new vehicles, etc. We pay for about half our monthly equipment by leasing. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it? Oh heck no. My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash flow. Mike At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont own the CPE? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go pick up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem insurance. Regards Michael Baird I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past. With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this strategy. -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] customers dogs chewing on CAT5
1) put it high enough the dog(s) can't reach 2) bury it with a piece of sheet metal over it so they can't chew 3) 45 ACP (not a head shot) Mike At 09:13 AM 11/9/2009, you wrote: I've had several customers that have had their dog chew on the Cat5 going from the house to the TV tower and some of them multiple times. Anyone have ideas on how to keep the dog from chewing on the wire? I've got one customer on their 3rd Cat5 run and going out right now to replace a different customer that will be his 3rd one as well. I'm about ready to shoot the stinking dog.. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
Rick: Maybe rural existence has its advantages; I've never been taxed by the county on anything but towers. And I'm not asking any questions either! Mike At 09:58 PM 11/9/2009, you wrote: Also note that many leases pass the property taxes on to leasee, so you may not escape it that way either. But, that takes me to another question (more likely for my CPA). Doesnt property taxes only apply to higher dollar items that are usually on a depreciation scheule? In other words, if you are expensing CPE straight off the books, then property tax does not apply? -RickG On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: It should be noted that if you buy CPE and keep ownership of CPE, you are likely open to pay Property Tax on it. In MD that equates to about 3% x 4 years. As well if you own it, it is not covered by the customer's home owner insurance if stolen or damaged by weather or other acts of god. (Not that Customers often are willing to claim it.) Having the customer own it, reduces a WISP's assets. Some lease types solve that problem, simply turning CPE into an expense. After the three years, if you bought it from the Leasor, you could list it on your books at depreciated value (near nothing) tax free, and could also list it on your balance sheeet, showing the retail value and depreceiated value, as an Asset that still has a perceived value, even if depreciated. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] About Hulu and Netflix and youtube... increased data delivery is here to stay.
I am very interested in your OS. What will be the minimum horsepower router on which it will run? If it would run on say a MT 450G, and the price was right, you'd sell a bunch! I'd buy several for my network. An agnostic approach to bandwidth management is MY preferred way to deal with network congestion. If the pipe is getting clogged, look for long duration threads and delay those packets in deference to those short duration network transactions. Let the web pages load fast, let users retrieve email fast, but if there is congestion, take the headroom away from the bandwidth hogs until the congestion frees up. Addressing congestion in this manner, instead of spending hours and hours adjusting your network for the latest P2P or identifying the latest video delivery codec, will keep you out of trouble with any net police who might accuse you of targeting streams from a particular provider, or streams of a particular genre. All connections, from all users, to all sources will be treated with the same fairness rules. We currently have such a device running on our network that has made a dramatic difference in the dynamics of how our network operates. The device already exists. It's called a NetEqualizer. There are a couple things about the NetEq your OS will no doubt fix and add value to a net op. First, the NetEq is a core device. It examines connections, bandwidth usage and congestion. It polices the cumulative bandwidth, compares it to what you've set as the maximum pipe size, and does it's thing. The traffic still has to transit the wireless network to reach the core device. A separate appliance at every AP or cluster accomplishing the same thing would be a thing of beauty. There is no way we could afford a NetEq at every such point in the network, but if your OS will run on a lower cost device, I WOULD but one it at several points and actually keep on-air traffic managed better. The second place your OS would correct a shortcoming of NetEq is again moving it away from the core. At the core, every connection from a separate subnet, say from a distant tower deployment will look like they come from a single IP instead of from the many who might be using the tower. NetEq will still identify each thread as unique, UNLESS multiple users happen to be connected to the same distant IP address like Google, or MSN, or others. If the appliance were to be moved to the remote tower site, it could do its own agnostic conditioning of bandwidth BEFORE it gets on the backbone. So Butch, if there is good value in the system; its affordable, and will run on affordable hardware, and works well, count me in for several of them. I think, with those caveats addressed, you will sell scads of them on this list alone. As a rural WISP, with very high wholesale bandwidth expenses, placement of such devices on our network would indeed take us over the next hurdle which is no doubt coming. God Speed in your development and keep me posted. I'd even be a beta tester on a select repeater site. Regards, Mike At 10:44 PM 11/12/2009, Butch wrote: ... The fact is, that a GOOD bandwidth manager will allow traffic to flow as fast as possible. One thing to bear in mind, with regard to my QOS system, is that I don't speed limit ANYTHING. I simply prioritize traffic so that the time sensitive stuff gets out first. There is no reason to limit even P2P if there is available bandwidth. Every class that I give that covers QOS, I restate this one maxim: QOS is not simply LIMITING bandwidth. Rather, QOS is about MANAGING the available bandwidth resources. There is an important distinction there that your comments don't take into account. We're thinking about how we're going to meet the demands of the near future... not managing a shortage of bandwidth delivery. Even with sufficient bandwidth available, there are links and network infrastructure where a good QOS mechanism will benefit the network. I'm thinking of planning on a future delivery of 4 to 6 meg per customer, oversubscribed to around 4 to 6 to one. For many, 4:1 would mean out of business. Even at 10:1, many would not survive. There are places in this country where bandwidth is still quite expensive ($200/Meg would sound GOOD to some people). Even at that price, a 4:1 ratio is $50/customer before you add in ANY costs. Even 10:1 is to high. It would be NICE if the price for wholesale BW came down, but too many folks do not have the benefit of reasonable bandwidth. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE
Re: [WISPA] Cat3 instead of Cat5
Think about it. How many DSL connections have you encountered that had a long run of satin phone cord from a block to the DSL modem? I used to have a DSL connection running on some of the UGLIEST station cable you can imagine; Scotch locks, stubs, all of it. Yeah it will work. Is it a good idea? Mike At 11:58 PM 11/17/2009, you wrote: Phone line is twisted pair and normally 2 pair. Transmit and receive. Can easily do 100mbps. You could even get it to do gigabit with not much effort. No PoE though, no pair for that. HOWEVER, the problems come from the nasty connections everyone including the phone company has made. Most phone line isn't clean like a network cable you would run. Who knows where the hell the splices and rodent chewed ends are at and if they stick with a common wiring scheme throughout the structure. If it was the best option, you could at least test and give up quickly if it fell on its face. There used to be some home networking nics that used the phone lines in the home and you could also use the phones with the things connected. That was in the late 1990's, early 2000. Some Gateway desktops came with them. I never saw them used though. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 12:02 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cat3 instead of Cat5 That would be great! But, I cant find anything on the net except references to the standard being 10Mbps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_3_cable Any examples? On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Kevin Neal ke...@safelink.net wrote: With the right equipment I've heard of gigabit over rusted old barbwire! -Kevin On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 7:32 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: 100Mbps on cat 3? Really? On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Forbes Mercy forbes.me...@wabroadband.comwrote: We currently run a Cat5 into the wall then put a jack into the house. My question is since you can get 100MB through a Cat3 which is the same as a phone line why can't we run the connection into their phone line? Most of our customers have cell phone only and their internal wiring is virtually unused. Thanks, Forbes WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need a new AP
Most Atheros radios I've seen can have an AP and a virtual AP. I have one set up in my office. One SSID leads to WEP encryption and different router rules. The other is WPA, virtual, and privileged; for full network access. Some of our devices don't do wpa nicely. Mike At 04:12 PM 11/19/2009, you wrote: WEP and WPA at the same time? Haven't seen that anywhere myself. Who cares about the waste of effort protocol though? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.comwrote: UBNT Bullet M2? On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:59 PM, pat p...@inlandnet.com wrote: I have one small group on an old Cisco Aironet 350, which only does 802.11b. 1) I want to have at least a b/g mix, n capable a bonus. 2) Must support WEP encryption, but be able to handle a mix of WEP and WPA simultaneously. (WEP for legacy clients that I haven't upgraded) 3) Must play nice with Tranzeo CPQ and CPE200. You input is helpful. TIA, Pat WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need a new AP
Some old Palm devices. Recently a Dell pre 2003 that you couldn't even update. No new stuff, but there are still a lot of wep only devices out there. At 05:58 PM 11/19/2009, you wrote: What devices don't do WPA in today's world? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Most Atheros radios I've seen can have an AP and a virtual AP. I have one set up in my office. One SSID leads to WEP encryption and different router rules. The other is WPA, virtual, and privileged; for full network access. Some of our devices don't do wpa nicely. Mike At 04:12 PM 11/19/2009, you wrote: WEP and WPA at the same time? Haven't seen that anywhere myself. Who cares about the waste of effort protocol though? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: UBNT Bullet M2? On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:59 PM, pat p...@inlandnet.com wrote: I have one small group on an old Cisco Aironet 350, which only does 802.11b. 1) I want to have at least a b/g mix, n capable a bonus. 2) Must support WEP encryption, but be able to handle a mix of WEP and WPA simultaneously. (WEP for legacy clients that I haven't upgraded) 3) Must play nice with Tranzeo CPQ and CPE200. You input is helpful. TIA, Pat WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Odd 5 ghz behavior
Pull a service loop at the lowest point on the CAT5. Without cutting the conductors, slice through the jacket. Does water come out? At 09:08 PM 11/20/2009, you wrote: I have a backhaul feed that completely flips out when it rains.But, only when it rains heavy, and only for a short time. Yes, we took the cables apart, and no, there wasn't water in the cable connections. But, water gets into stuff slowly, and ... err... stays there. This, will be perfectly fine and when a sudden rainstorm hit will go from working as it should to fully dead in minutes. And, when the rain SLOWS (not stops), it comes back up again and will restore to full RSSI faster than I can get to it. Pacwireless grids at both ends, vertical polarization, and no noise that I know of, other than self inflicted, if I set stuff wrong. This is a shared backhaul... One end is 13 miles, one is 3 miles. The near one is off the edge of the beam a bit, mostly due to elevation settings, and being off the center of the beam by 5 or 6 degrees horizontally.The AP end sees the clients go weak and vanish.Both of the client ends see the same thing.If it stops raining, or slows to a spit, by 20 minutes we have good RSSI and the quality starts back up. The quality falls first, then RSSI when the link starts to fail. I'm baffled by this behavior, and have replaced the radio, pigtail, pulled the cable ends off to inspect for water, and didn't find any. But, where I HAVE had water leaks, the water gets in, the link dies, and stays dead. This changes quickly, having a few minutes lag behind a storm. For instance, a sudden 20 minute downpour will see the link die, but by the time it stops raining and I can drive the 10 minutes to the site, it's up and RSSI is fine. I have 2 other nearly parallel links at the same site, none of them seem to have this behavior. I do notice smallish losses in RSSI during hard rains, but nothing like going from high 60's to can't detect in minutes. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice?
Josh: I thought that too. I have a handful of customers on a 5 MHz sector. Winbox shows this: Emacs! Mike At 07:32 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: I believe when you half the channels the rates also get halved - from 54mbit to 27mbit max (that is from 20mhz to 10mhz channels). I also can't see why you're voice would be having problems in half or quarter channels unless there is a software bug. It should only improve unless you're using all available bandwidth. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com wrote: First, you should have a better signal than -70 at 5Miles away with a 24dB/NS2 antenna and a B2HP/9dB omni. I get 65 or better with a 19dB panel. Don't forget, 10MHz channel is 1/2 available bandwidth and 5MHz is 1/4 available bandwidth. Really, you will get about 7-10MBit aggregate (depending on how many customers) on a 5MHz channel connected at 54MBit, which requires signals at -74dBm with a good fade margin (10dB). Also, the TX power is significantly less for 54MBps (23dBm) vs 24MBps(28dBm), less than half. Likely, you are connecting at 48MBps or 36Mbps, which at that rate your total available real case bandwidth is as little as 4MBps, while at 20MHz you are at 15+. A narrower channel should not affect your transmission, likely will make signals better, roughly double (+3dBm) from 20-10, and double from 10-5(total +6dBm). Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice? Well next time definitely bring more food! Beef jerky and granola bars. In my testing the narrower channels just made things slower. I was testing in a pristine area where there was no other 5.8GHz going on. From what I hear if the environment had been polluted performance might have actually gone up with the narrower channels. From what I've read narrower channels doesn't effect packet size or transport. But switching to WDS bridged does. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: Its not in the field, but it is sitting here in my bedroom looking cool :). I was thinking that using the 10/5MHz bandwidth required one to setup something else. I'm not that familiar with the use of half/quarter rate channels and how that affects the frame transport/packet size etc,. I wonder if it was environment based rather than 'software/configuration' based. If I get some time this evening I might setup the gear again for more focused testing (Testing in the field with volunteers who are cold and hungry dont usually respond well to testing plans). -Israel os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: Just for kicks I'd try WDS bridged. Do you have control from where you're at now? Is the equipment still set up? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: @Travis Johnson - Yes Upgraded to newest firmware for the two units @os10rules - Nope, Fixed was simple AP and Mobile was Station modes os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: Running WDS bridged? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: Hey All, I did some field tests (for overseas volunteer project) with some Ubituiti gear; Nanostation2 Bullet2HP. One thing that was surprising was the performance degradation when switching from 20MHz to 10MHz/5MHz. Our tests were Raw Bandwidth Tests(AirOS), Video (VLC UDP Stream), Voice (Trixbox G711 Voice Call), and MTR (Latency, Jitter) I still have data to collect and prepare a report for the tech team, but we did notice that when we switched to 10 or 5MHz bandwidth our voice calls was greatly degraded. Only one way; from Fixed to Mobile I could hear the Fixed station easily. Mobile to Fixed the voice was choppy. We started to get packet loss massive jitter on 10MHz, just going back to 20MHz made the links stable. Fixed Station: On a mountain side - HPOL 9dBI Omni Directional with a Bullet2HP @400mW Mobile Station: 8km away near large body of water - Bullet2HP @400mW w/ 24dBi Directional (HPOL Alignment) -70dbm RSSI Any ideas? We are planning on using 10MHz channels H-Pol to combat any future spectrum pollution and voice calls over this network is expected. -Israel WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe
Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice?
LOL, I guess my little image didn't get embedded. Some connections are 12, some 48, and the closest 54. Mike At 08:13 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: It is very weird isn't it? Vi is better the Emacs. On 11/22/09, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Josh: I thought that too. I have a handful of customers on a 5 MHz sector. Winbox shows this: Emacs! Mike At 07:32 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: I believe when you half the channels the rates also get halved - from 54mbit to 27mbit max (that is from 20mhz to 10mhz channels). I also can't see why you're voice would be having problems in half or quarter channels unless there is a software bug. It should only improve unless you're using all available bandwidth. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com wrote: First, you should have a better signal than -70 at 5Miles away with a 24dB/NS2 antenna and a B2HP/9dB omni. I get 65 or better with a 19dB panel. Don't forget, 10MHz channel is 1/2 available bandwidth and 5MHz is 1/4 available bandwidth. Really, you will get about 7-10MBit aggregate (depending on how many customers) on a 5MHz channel connected at 54MBit, which requires signals at -74dBm with a good fade margin (10dB). Also, the TX power is significantly less for 54MBps (23dBm) vs 24MBps(28dBm), less than half. Likely, you are connecting at 48MBps or 36Mbps, which at that rate your total available real case bandwidth is as little as 4MBps, while at 20MHz you are at 15+. A narrower channel should not affect your transmission, likely will make signals better, roughly double (+3dBm) from 20-10, and double from 10-5(total +6dBm). Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice? Well next time definitely bring more food! Beef jerky and granola bars. In my testing the narrower channels just made things slower. I was testing in a pristine area where there was no other 5.8GHz going on. From what I hear if the environment had been polluted performance might have actually gone up with the narrower channels. From what I've read narrower channels doesn't effect packet size or transport. But switching to WDS bridged does. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: Its not in the field, but it is sitting here in my bedroom looking cool :). I was thinking that using the 10/5MHz bandwidth required one to setup something else. I'm not that familiar with the use of half/quarter rate channels and how that affects the frame transport/packet size etc,. I wonder if it was environment based rather than 'software/configuration' based. If I get some time this evening I might setup the gear again for more focused testing (Testing in the field with volunteers who are cold and hungry dont usually respond well to testing plans). -Israel os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: Just for kicks I'd try WDS bridged. Do you have control from where you're at now? Is the equipment still set up? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: @Travis Johnson - Yes Upgraded to newest firmware for the two units @os10rules - Nope, Fixed was simple AP and Mobile was Station modes os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: Running WDS bridged? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: Hey All, I did some field tests (for overseas volunteer project) with some Ubituiti gear; Nanostation2 Bullet2HP. One thing that was surprising was the performance degradation when switching from 20MHz to 10MHz/5MHz. Our tests were Raw Bandwidth Tests(AirOS), Video (VLC UDP Stream), Voice (Trixbox G711 Voice Call), and MTR (Latency, Jitter) I still have data to collect and prepare a report for the tech team, but we did notice that when we switched to 10 or 5MHz bandwidth our voice calls was greatly degraded. Only one way; from Fixed to Mobile I could hear the Fixed station easily. Mobile to Fixed the voice was choppy. We started to get packet loss massive jitter on 10MHz, just going back to 20MHz made the links stable. Fixed Station: On a mountain side - HPOL 9dBI Omni Directional with a Bullet2HP @400mW Mobile Station: 8km away near large body of water - Bullet2HP @400mW w
Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice?
There are 5 customers on it. It is horizontal, and yes, 5 MHz. I call it my trouble sector. I put on a handful of those distant trouble customers. The greatly improved signal to noise makes it work quite well. I don't think any of them are doing VOIP. I see greater than 12 on a couple of them? At 09:04 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: Am I reading it correctly that your AP is transmitting at 12Mbit modulation on a 5MHz channel, which is 3MBit aggregate at best case scenario? If you do a speed test, what is the best download you can get out of it? 3-400kB/s? On an aggregate level, your VoIP would probably have an issue the first time one of the other CPE's start's receiving data. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice? LOL, I guess my little image didn't get embedded. Some connections are 12, some 48, and the closest 54. Mike At 08:13 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: It is very weird isn't it? Vi is better the Emacs. On 11/22/09, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Josh: I thought that too. I have a handful of customers on a 5 MHz sector. Winbox shows this: Emacs! Mike At 07:32 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: I believe when you half the channels the rates also get halved - from 54mbit to 27mbit max (that is from 20mhz to 10mhz channels). I also can't see why you're voice would be having problems in half or quarter channels unless there is a software bug. It should only improve unless you're using all available bandwidth. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com wrote: First, you should have a better signal than -70 at 5Miles away with a 24dB/NS2 antenna and a B2HP/9dB omni. I get 65 or better with a 19dB panel. Don't forget, 10MHz channel is 1/2 available bandwidth and 5MHz is 1/4 available bandwidth. Really, you will get about 7-10MBit aggregate (depending on how many customers) on a 5MHz channel connected at 54MBit, which requires signals at -74dBm with a good fade margin (10dB). Also, the TX power is significantly less for 54MBps (23dBm) vs 24MBps(28dBm), less than half. Likely, you are connecting at 48MBps or 36Mbps, which at that rate your total available real case bandwidth is as little as 4MBps, while at 20MHz you are at 15+. A narrower channel should not affect your transmission, likely will make signals better, roughly double (+3dBm) from 20-10, and double from 10-5(total +6dBm). Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice? Well next time definitely bring more food! Beef jerky and granola bars. In my testing the narrower channels just made things slower. I was testing in a pristine area where there was no other 5.8GHz going on. From what I hear if the environment had been polluted performance might have actually gone up with the narrower channels. From what I've read narrower channels doesn't effect packet size or transport. But switching to WDS bridged does. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: Its not in the field, but it is sitting here in my bedroom looking cool :). I was thinking that using the 10/5MHz bandwidth required one to setup something else. I'm not that familiar with the use of half/quarter rate channels and how that affects the frame transport/packet size etc,. I wonder if it was environment based rather than 'software/configuration' based. If I get some time this evening I might setup the gear again for more focused testing (Testing in the field with volunteers who are cold and hungry dont usually respond well to testing plans). -Israel os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: Just for kicks I'd try WDS bridged. Do you have control from where you're at now? Is the equipment still set up? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: @Travis Johnson - Yes Upgraded to newest firmware for the two units @os10rules - Nope, Fixed was simple AP and Mobile was Station modes
Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice?
I should think the opposite is true. Halve the signal, improve signal to noise 3 dB. Half it again and the improvement is 6 dB signal to noise. Should give you way more margin. My tests prove that out. At 08:44 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: IIRC, 5MHz and 10MHz is more sucepstible to interference than 20MHz. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS ilopezli...@sandboxitsolutions.com wrote: I'm gonna have to set up the environment again. Only thing I cant simulate right now is distance. As long as it wasnt some voodoo config setting that made it work better, I might have to play with the Mobile NS2's settings for it to play nicely. OT: What is CCQ? -Israel Josh Luthman wrote: It is very weird isn't it? Vi is better the Emacs. On 11/22/09, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Josh: I thought that too. I have a handful of customers on a 5 MHz sector. Winbox shows this: Emacs! Mike At 07:32 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: I believe when you half the channels the rates also get halved - from 54mbit to 27mbit max (that is from 20mhz to 10mhz channels). I also can't see why you're voice would be having problems in half or quarter channels unless there is a software bug. It should only improve unless you're using all available bandwidth. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 8:08 PM, Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com wrote: First, you should have a better signal than -70 at 5Miles away with a 24dB/NS2 antenna and a B2HP/9dB omni. I get 65 or better with a 19dB panel. Don't forget, 10MHz channel is 1/2 available bandwidth and 5MHz is 1/4 available bandwidth. Really, you will get about 7-10MBit aggregate (depending on how many customers) on a 5MHz channel connected at 54MBit, which requires signals at -74dBm with a good fade margin (10dB). Also, the TX power is significantly less for 54MBps (23dBm) vs 24MBps(28dBm), less than half. Likely, you are connecting at 48MBps or 36Mbps, which at that rate your total available real case bandwidth is as little as 4MBps, while at 20MHz you are at 15+. A narrower channel should not affect your transmission, likely will make signals better, roughly double (+3dBm) from 20-10, and double from 10-5(total +6dBm). Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 6:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice? Well next time definitely bring more food! Beef jerky and granola bars. In my testing the narrower channels just made things slower. I was testing in a pristine area where there was no other 5.8GHz going on. From what I hear if the environment had been polluted performance might have actually gone up with the narrower channels. From what I've read narrower channels doesn't effect packet size or transport. But switching to WDS bridged does. Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: Its not in the field, but it is sitting here in my bedroom looking cool :). I was thinking that using the 10/5MHz bandwidth required one to setup something else. I'm not that familiar with the use of half/quarter rate channels and how that affects the frame transport/packet size etc,. I wonder if it was environment based rather than 'software/configuration' based. If I get some time this evening I might setup the gear again for more focused testing (Testing in the field with volunteers who are cold and hungry dont usually respond well to testing plans). -Israel os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: Just for kicks I'd try WDS bridged. Do you have control from where you're at now? Is the equipment still set up? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: @Travis Johnson - Yes Upgraded to newest firmware for the two units @os10rules - Nope, Fixed was simple AP and Mobile was Station modes os10ru...@gmail.com wrote: Running WDS bridged? Greg On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS wrote: Hey All, I did some field tests (for overseas volunteer project) with some Ubituiti gear; Nanostation2 Bullet2HP. One thing that was surprising was the performance degradation when switching from 20MHz to 10MHz/5MHz. Our tests were Raw Bandwidth Tests(AirOS), Video (VLC UDP Stream), Voice
Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice?
802.11 clause 17 specifies a spectral mask must be used which limits permitted distribution of power across each channel. The requirement is that the signal be attenuated by at least 30 dB from its peak energy at ± 11MHz from the center frequency. That is how the definition of a 22 MHz wide channel evolved. This spectral mask defines power output must be attenuated 50 dB ± 22MHz from frequency center. We all talk about there being 3 non overlapping channels in 2.4. Guess what? The energy, although attenuated goes beyond those 22 MHz. If you narrow that spectral mask by half, your total envelope power is now contained in a smaller slice of spectrum. If you half it again, the total benefit from having better signal to noise ratio is 6 dB. It doesn't matter if you park a new AP atop a used frequency using 22 MHz channels or 10, or 5; you still have contention. A 22 MHz wide channel doesn't magically make it work better. But neither do the fractional channels. Interference is interference. What using fractional channels lets you do is move farther away from a measured center frequency already in use. When you do, that 3 (or 6dB) gain in signal to noise will allow a signal that may have been marginal at 20 MHz to work. I have some distant customers. Way out in the sticks. Friends. I probably shouldn't have installed them. I told them we would have little fade margin. Their house looks over a hill at my tower. I am using knife edge diffraction as a propagation medium. I can get a -79 dBm signal, on a good day. When atmospheric conditions deteriorate, it may degrade to -83 and be unusable. Since I put them on my horizontal, 5 MHz sector, they have stayed associated 24/7 every day. That 6 dB signal to noise benefit gave me the fade margin that path needed. The signal is still -79 and degrades to -83 on occasion. If you take all of the energy in a 20 MHz slice and add it all up, intended signal, spurious signals, and noise, there is a lot more energy than in a 5 MHz slice adding up the same factors. Uusing a ham radio metaphor, its like a 500 Hz CW signal can make the path when a 3 kHz SSB signal can't -- signal to noise; it can be your friend. Mike At 12:19 AM 11/23/2009, you wrote: However, if the noise is outside of the 10mhz channel size (say 5mhz on each side), the 10mhz link will work perfect, while the 20mhz link will have loss and latency. With smaller channel sizes, you have LESS of a chance of having noise issues. Travis Microserv Jayson Baker wrote: Doesn't matter. If the interference is there, it's there. If your radio has no where to spread out the signal and avoid that interference, you're dead. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.comj...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: Right but you have another 6db to get a stronger signal. On 11/22/09, Jayson Baker mailto:jay...@spectrasurf.comjay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Yes, you get more signal, but you have much less spectrum for your spread spectrum radio to operate in. Spread spectrum doesn't always use the full 20MHz, it will skip around -- that's the spread part of it. So if you lower that to 5MHz, then you have virtually no spread and anything that may be inside that 5MHz will cause you a much more deteriorated performance than if it was in your 20MHz. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com wrote: I should think the opposite is true. Halve the signal, improve signal to noise 3 dB. Half it again and the improvement is 6 dB signal to noise. Should give you way more margin. My tests prove that out. At 08:44 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: IIRC, 5MHz and 10MHz is more sucepstible to interference than 20MHz. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS mailto:ilopezli...@sandboxitsolutions.comilopezli...@sandboxitsolutions.com wrote: I'm gonna have to set up the environment again. Only thing I cant simulate right now is distance. As long as it wasnt some voodoo config setting that made it work better, I might have to play with the Mobile NS2's settings for it to play nicely. OT: What is CCQ? -Israel Josh Luthman wrote: It is very weird isn't it? Vi is better the Emacs. On 11/22/09, Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com wrote: Josh: I thought that too. I have a handful of customers on a 5 MHz sector. Winbox shows this: Emacs! Mike At 07:32 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: I believe when you half the channels the rates also get halved - from 54mbit to 27mbit max (that is from 20mhz to 10mhz channels). I also can't see why you're voice would be having problems in half or quarter channels unless there is a software bug. It should only improve unless you're using all available bandwidth. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide
Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice?
In a way, yes. There are some adaptive modulation techniques that are smarter than 802.11g, MIMO being one. What breaking the channel into separate sub carriers accomplishes is being able to send coherence through selective fading and cross talk. Mike At 07:22 AM 11/23/2009, Greg wrote: When you have a 5MHz or 10MHz channel which is within the spectrum of a competitor's 20MHz channel, doesn't the adaptive nature of OFDM cause the competitor's 20MHz link to not use the OFDM carriers in the portion of the spectrum your 5MHz or 10MHz channel is occupying? Greg On Nov 23, 2009, at 8:16 AM, Mike wrote: 802.11 clause 17 specifies a spectral mask must be used which limits permitted distribution of power across each channel. The requirement is that the signal be attenuated by at least 30 dB from its peak energy at ± 11MHz from the center frequency. That is how the definition of a 22 MHz wide channel evolved. This spectral mask defines power output must be attenuated 50 dB ± 22MHz from frequency center. We all talk about there being 3 non overlapping channels in 2.4. Guess what? The energy, although attenuated goes beyond those 22 MHz. If you narrow that spectral mask by half, your total envelope power is now contained in a smaller slice of spectrum. If you half it again, the total benefit from having better signal to noise ratio is 6 dB. It doesn't matter if you park a new AP atop a used frequency using 22 MHz channels or 10, or 5; you still have contention. A 22 MHz wide channel doesn't magically make it work better. But neither do the fractional channels. Interference is interference. What using fractional channels lets you do is move farther away from a measured center frequency already in use. When you do, that 3 (or 6dB) gain in signal to noise will allow a signal that may have been marginal at 20 MHz to work. I have some distant customers. Way out in the sticks. Friends. I probably shouldn't have installed them. I told them we would have little fade margin. Their house looks over a hill at my tower. I am using knife edge diffraction as a propagation medium. I can get a -79 dBm signal, on a good day. When atmospheric conditions deteriorate, it may degrade to -83 and be unusable. Since I put them on my horizontal, 5 MHz sector, they have stayed associated 24/7 every day. That 6 dB signal to noise benefit gave me the fade margin that path needed. The signal is still -79 and degrades to -83 on occasion. If you take all of the energy in a 20 MHz slice and add it all up, intended signal, spurious signals, and noise, there is a lot more energy than in a 5 MHz slice adding up the same factors. Uusing a ham radio metaphor, its like a 500 Hz CW signal can make the path when a 3 kHz SSB signal can't -- signal to noise; it can be your friend. Mike At 12:19 AM 11/23/2009, you wrote: However, if the noise is outside of the 10mhz channel size (say 5mhz on each side), the 10mhz link will work perfect, while the 20mhz link will have loss and latency. With smaller channel sizes, you have LESS of a chance of having noise issues. Travis Microserv Jayson Baker wrote: Doesn't matter. If the interference is there, it's there. If your radio has no where to spread out the signal and avoid that interference, you're dead. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.comj...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: Right but you have another 6db to get a stronger signal. On 11/22/09, Jayson Baker mailto:jay...@spectrasurf.comjay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Yes, you get more signal, but you have much less spectrum for your spread spectrum radio to operate in. Spread spectrum doesn't always use the full 20MHz, it will skip around -- that's the spread part of it. So if you lower that to 5MHz, then you have virtually no spread and anything that may be inside that 5MHz will cause you a much more deteriorated performance than if it was in your 20MHz. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com wrote: I should think the opposite is true. Halve the signal, improve signal to noise 3 dB. Half it again and the improvement is 6 dB signal to noise. Should give you way more margin. My tests prove that out. At 08:44 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote: IIRC, 5MHz and 10MHz is more sucepstible to interference than 20MHz. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Israel Lopez-LISTS mailto:ilopezli...@sandboxitsolutions.comilopezli...@sandboxitsolutions.com wrote: I'm gonna have to set up the environment again. Only thing I cant simulate right now is distance. As long as it wasnt some voodoo config setting that made it work better, I might have to play with the Mobile NS2's settings for it to play
Re: [WISPA] 10MHz, 5MHz - unstable for voice?
The beauty and usefulness of OFDM is at the receiver. Those multiple subcariers allow easier DETECTION in a multipath or interference environment. Those subcarriers being transmitted can be done at a lower signal speed and are aggregated at the RECEIVER into the original high speed signal. The transmitter isn't adapting per se. Mike At 08:12 AM 11/23/2009, I wrote: In a way, yes. There are some adaptive modulation techniques that are smarter than 802.11g, MIMO being one. What breaking the channel into separate sub carriers accomplishes is being able to send coherence through selective fading and cross talk. Mike At 07:22 AM 11/23/2009, Greg wrote: When you have a 5MHz or 10MHz channel which is within the spectrum of a competitor's 20MHz channel, doesn't the adaptive nature of OFDM cause the competitor's 20MHz link to not use the OFDM carriers in the portion of the spectrum your 5MHz or 10MHz channel is occupying? Greg On Nov 23, 2009, at 8:16 AM, Mike wrote: 802.11 clause 17 specifies a spectral mask must be used which limits permitted distribution of power across each channel. The requirement is that the signal be attenuated by at least 30 dB from its peak energy at ± 11MHz from the center frequency. That is how the definition of a 22 MHz wide channel evolved. This spectral mask defines power output must be attenuated 50 dB ± 22MHz from frequency center. We all talk about there being 3 non overlapping channels in 2.4. Guess what? The energy, although attenuated goes beyond those 22 MHz. If you narrow that spectral mask by half, your total envelope power is now contained in a smaller slice of spectrum. If you half it again, the total benefit from having better signal to noise ratio is 6 dB. It doesn't matter if you park a new AP atop a used frequency using 22 MHz channels or 10, or 5; you still have contention. A 22 MHz wide channel doesn't magically make it work better. But neither do the fractional channels. Interference is interference. What using fractional channels lets you do is move farther away from a measured center frequency already in use. When you do, that 3 (or 6dB) gain in signal to noise will allow a signal that may have been marginal at 20 MHz to work. I have some distant customers. Way out in the sticks. Friends. I probably shouldn't have installed them. I told them we would have little fade margin. Their house looks over a hill at my tower. I am using knife edge diffraction as a propagation medium. I can get a -79 dBm signal, on a good day. When atmospheric conditions deteriorate, it may degrade to -83 and be unusable. Since I put them on my horizontal, 5 MHz sector, they have stayed associated 24/7 every day. That 6 dB signal to noise benefit gave me the fade margin that path needed. The signal is still -79 and degrades to -83 on occasion. If you take all of the energy in a 20 MHz slice and add it all up, intended signal, spurious signals, and noise, there is a lot more energy than in a 5 MHz slice adding up the same factors. Uusing a ham radio metaphor, its like a 500 Hz CW signal can make the path when a 3 kHz SSB signal can't -- signal to noise; it can be your friend. Mike At 12:19 AM 11/23/2009, you wrote: However, if the noise is outside of the 10mhz channel size (say 5mhz on each side), the 10mhz link will work perfect, while the 20mhz link will have loss and latency. With smaller channel sizes, you have LESS of a chance of having noise issues. Travis Microserv Jayson Baker wrote: Doesn't matter. If the interference is there, it's there. If your radio has no where to spread out the signal and avoid that interference, you're dead. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Josh Luthman mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.comj...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: Right but you have another 6db to get a stronger signal. On 11/22/09, Jayson Baker mailto:jay...@spectrasurf.comjay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Yes, you get more signal, but you have much less spectrum for your spread spectrum radio to operate in. Spread spectrum doesn't always use the full 20MHz, it will skip around -- that's the spread part of it. So if you lower that to 5MHz, then you have virtually no spread and anything that may be inside that 5MHz will cause you a much more deteriorated performance than if it was in your 20MHz. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com wrote: I should think the opposite is true. Halve the signal, improve signal to noise 3 dB. Half it again and the improvement is 6 dB signal to noise. Should give you way more margin. My tests prove that out. At 08:44 PM 11/22/2009, you wrote
Re: [WISPA] A Ridiculous Failure of Critical Infrastructure
Mediacomm was having some bad equipment problems in Marshalltown or Des Moines a couple months ago. It was on a hand off to Sprint on some fiber shelf. It bit us twice, each on a Sunday, for most of the day. After the second episode, which apparently happened after scheduled maintenance, I am convinced the big boys decided to mess with a couple little guys. Sunday outages usually affect residential users, which are my bread and butter. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough sense to have my upstream provider supply me with a map of exactly how the traffic was routed, and the outages affected my primary connection AND my backup. Seems both Dynamic Broadband and Mediacomm hand off to Sprint here in this part of Iowa. So, even my back-up as currently configured can be at risk. Needless to say, I have a winter project to engineer something going to the east from here. Matt, I hope they get it figured out for you guys soon. If you're anything like me, all hairs are already gray. Mike At 01:54 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: Some kind of combination of failure between Charter and Qwest has left tens of thousands of people in Nebraska without Internet and has disrupted the Internet and phone services for thousands more.Right now, the outage is going on 12 hours and there is no ETA for repair in sight. The word coming down is that the outage is on a Qwest fiber, but it looks to me like both parties should be on the hot seat for not having the ability to route around the problem.There was a four hour outage on Charter a week ago that was caused by a fiber cut in Gothenburg, Nebraska. That one killed everything west of the cut, but it was small potatoes compared to this one. Is this truly the level of performance that we can expect from our major Internet backbone providers? It took me about 10 seconds to re-route my traffic to a backup provider - you would think that a couple of multimillion dollar companies would be able to sort out a problem of this nature in a reasonable amount of time. The small CLEC that I use for my backup connection had enough capacity to route around the problem and was even able to lend me a little bit after 5pm when the traffic on their network (mostly businesses) dropped off. It isn't rocket science to figure out how to route around an outage. Almost as frustrating is that there was NO news about the outages anywhere except on the social networking sites (Facebook, Twitter). One TV station in Hastings, NE put up a short story on their website, but I got more news from the tweets and FB posts that people where posting from their cell phones than I did from anywhere else. None of the network outage sites have any news about this. Could this be a harbinger of things to come? I am feeling pretty thankful right now that I have a choice in backbone providers and that I kept a second one. Diversity is a good thing, and this is a great example of why we need competition and multiple options for Internet. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] A Ridiculous Failure of Critical Infrastructure
Scott, We are a little over 100 miles west of the Quad Cities, close to hwy 30, just east of central Iowa. Your thoughts? Mike At 08:00 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: How far away from Illinois are you? - Scott Piehn - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:52 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] A Ridiculous Failure of Critical Infrastructure Mediacomm was having some bad equipment problems in Marshalltown or Des Moines a couple months ago. It was on a hand off to Sprint on some fiber shelf. It bit us twice, each on a Sunday, for most of the day. After the second episode, which apparently happened after scheduled maintenance, I am convinced the big boys decided to mess with a couple little guys. Sunday outages usually affect residential users, which are my bread and butter. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough sense to have my upstream provider supply me with a map of exactly how the traffic was routed, and the outages affected my primary connection AND my backup. Seems both Dynamic Broadband and Mediacomm hand off to Sprint here in this part of Iowa. So, even my back-up as currently configured can be at risk. Needless to say, I have a winter project to engineer something going to the east from here. Matt, I hope they get it figured out for you guys soon. If you're anything like me, all hairs are already gray. Mike At 01:54 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: Some kind of combination of failure between Charter and Qwest has left tens of thousands of people in Nebraska without Internet and has disrupted the Internet and phone services for thousands more.Right now, the outage is going on 12 hours and there is no ETA for repair in sight. The word coming down is that the outage is on a Qwest fiber, but it looks to me like both parties should be on the hot seat for not having the ability to route around the problem.There was a four hour outage on Charter a week ago that was caused by a fiber cut in Gothenburg, Nebraska. That one killed everything west of the cut, but it was small potatoes compared to this one. Is this truly the level of performance that we can expect from our major Internet backbone providers? It took me about 10 seconds to re-route my traffic to a backup provider - you would think that a couple of multimillion dollar companies would be able to sort out a problem of this nature in a reasonable amount of time. The small CLEC that I use for my backup connection had enough capacity to route around the problem and was even able to lend me a little bit after 5pm when the traffic on their network (mostly businesses) dropped off. It isn't rocket science to figure out how to route around an outage. Almost as frustrating is that there was NO news about the outages anywhere except on the social networking sites (Facebook, Twitter). One TV station in Hastings, NE put up a short story on their website, but I got more news from the tweets and FB posts that people where posting from their cell phones than I did from anywhere else. None of the network outage sites have any news about this. Could this be a harbinger of things to come? I am feeling pretty thankful right now that I have a choice in backbone providers and that I kept a second one. Diversity is a good thing, and this is a great example of why we need competition and multiple options for Internet. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] 20 mile link
Rick: You have been getting some good advice here. I am not a networking guru and have never played one on TV, but do know a thing or two about RF. It seems with your physical layout you may have an opportunity for some space diversity. A simple link will probably serve you with 3 nines or so. If infrequent outages will sit OK with the user, then engineer a link with single radios. If you use some of the more inexpensive radio solutions as proffered here, you could put up two links with 20' to 30' of physical separation. Or, one dish on the water tower, and two on the new tower. The single one could be the AP and the other two remote ones stations. You could use an MT router running OSPF with one having a higher cost than the other. If one failed, the other would take over. My fear of a 20 mile link would be those atmospheric events we sometimes see -- tropospheric ducting. I would be curious what you come up with. Mike At 09:22 PM 11/30/2009, you wrote: Planning my first 20 mile PTP link. Path analysis shows clear. Customer is building a 100' tower just for this therefore the equipment I choose must work. I'm free to use whatever I want. Suggestions? -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] A Ridiculous Failure of Critical Infrastructure
I appreciate the gesture. Iowa does have a lot of options; just not in my area which is very rural. Qwest has fiber to the home northwest of me. I am trying to engineer another backhaul from a point there back to my tower. The wheels of progress sometimes turn slowly. Mike At 08:27 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: We are tapped into fiber about 10 miles from Iowa on Illinois. Traffic runs to Chicago, not across sprint. Last I knew, Iowa had lots of options, but if they don't pan out, the neighbor between us youSQ might have an option was hoping to offer an option, but 100 miles is probably to far - Scott Piehn - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] A Ridiculous Failure of Critical Infrastructure Scott, We are a little over 100 miles west of the Quad Cities, close to hwy 30, just east of central Iowa. Your thoughts? Mike At 08:00 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: How far away from Illinois are you? - Scott Piehn - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:52 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] A Ridiculous Failure of Critical Infrastructure Mediacomm was having some bad equipment problems in Marshalltown or Des Moines a couple months ago. It was on a hand off to Sprint on some fiber shelf. It bit us twice, each on a Sunday, for most of the day. After the second episode, which apparently happened after scheduled maintenance, I am convinced the big boys decided to mess with a couple little guys. Sunday outages usually affect residential users, which are my bread and butter. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough sense to have my upstream provider supply me with a map of exactly how the traffic was routed, and the outages affected my primary connection AND my backup. Seems both Dynamic Broadband and Mediacomm hand off to Sprint here in this part of Iowa. So, even my back-up as currently configured can be at risk. Needless to say, I have a winter project to engineer something going to the east from here. Matt, I hope they get it figured out for you guys soon. If you're anything like me, all hairs are already gray. Mike At 01:54 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: Some kind of combination of failure between Charter and Qwest has left tens of thousands of people in Nebraska without Internet and has disrupted the Internet and phone services for thousands more.Right now, the outage is going on 12 hours and there is no ETA for repair in sight. The word coming down is that the outage is on a Qwest fiber, but it looks to me like both parties should be on the hot seat for not having the ability to route around the problem.There was a four hour outage on Charter a week ago that was caused by a fiber cut in Gothenburg, Nebraska. That one killed everything west of the cut, but it was small potatoes compared to this one. Is this truly the level of performance that we can expect from our major Internet backbone providers? It took me about 10 seconds to re-route my traffic to a backup provider - you would think that a couple of multimillion dollar companies would be able to sort out a problem of this nature in a reasonable amount of time. The small CLEC that I use for my backup connection had enough capacity to route around the problem and was even able to lend me a little bit after 5pm when the traffic on their network (mostly businesses) dropped off. It isn't rocket science to figure out how to route around an outage. Almost as frustrating is that there was NO news about the outages anywhere except on the social networking sites (Facebook, Twitter). One TV station in Hastings, NE put up a short story on their website, but I got more news from the tweets and FB posts that people where posting from their cell phones than I did from anywhere else. None of the network outage sites have any news about this. Could this be a harbinger of things to come? I am feeling pretty thankful right now that I have a choice in backbone providers and that I kept a second one. Diversity is a good thing, and this is a great example of why we need competition and multiple options for Internet. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
[WISPA] Iowa Telecom a.k.a Windstream
My primary competition for the past few years has been Iowa Telecom. They have been purchased by Windstream. I knew what to expect from Iowa Telecom, but don't now. Have any of you had experience with Windstream? Should I be bracing for some real competition? Iowa Telecom decisions, in my analysis are based mostly on use of their wired facilities. DSL, phone service are primary, and their wireless offerings, with phone and Dish, have been secondary. Should I expect the same from Winstream? Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Iowa Telecom a.k.a Windstream
Jayson, redo the link and send it again; I want to see it. At 09:22 AM 12/1/2009, you wrote: If this is their install truck, I don't think you have to worry about much. [image: ?ui=2view=attth=1254ad61273873f9attid=0.1disp=attdrealattid=ii_1254ad61273873f9zw] LOL On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:04 AM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: My primary competition for the past few years has been Iowa Telecom. They have been purchased by Windstream. I knew what to expect from Iowa Telecom, but don't now. Have any of you had experience with Windstream? Should I be bracing for some real competition? Iowa Telecom decisions, in my analysis are based mostly on use of their wired facilities. DSL, phone service are primary, and their wireless offerings, with phone and Dish, have been secondary. Should I expect the same from Winstream? Mike WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name=index_r6_c5.jpg Content-ID: ii_1254ad61273873f9 X-Attachment-Id: ii_1254ad61273873f9 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers.... Needed for WISP related product...
Oh heck no! I'd NEVER live through it the second time! At 12:52 PM 12/1/2009, you wrote: I dunno about that, Butch. I had a lot more fun in my late teens\early 20s... before I came down with the WISP illness. Sometimes I wish I could go back in time. :-p - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:43 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] FreeBSD hackers Needed for WISP related product... On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 10:27 -0600, Mike Hammett wrote: True, but MT has had a lot of issues over the years with N-Streme. Alvarion (AFAIK, just works). I'm not aware of anyone wanting to go back in time. What used to be true isn't now, and I prefer living in the here and now. BTW, nstreme is the correct spelling. ;-) Either way, I was specifically addressing the question of what is (and isn't) 802.11 running on Atheros. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE! * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Sectors
Have you had any issues with putting 3 radio cards in the same spectrum in the same box? I've thought about that but wondered if there would be desense issues where one transmitting desensitizes another one listening. At 08:38 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Yep, looks like you're hitting the wall. We aren't lucky enough to push 3 meg here, the most is usually 1 so again, all depends on your customer base. I'd say if you already have 35 on that one AP, just splitting it into 2 180 degree sectors will just cost you cash as soon as you gain a few more customers. You already have 35 pulling it down, sounds like if you just do 2 180's, if split evenly (and it never will be) that would put you to where you probably want to be for smooth delivery but not much room for more growth. I'd go with 3 120's and a 433AH with 3 cards on it, one per sector. I have a few like that and it works fine for what I do but again, I only dole out 1mb per sub typically. I've also been upgrading some of my remote AP's to one 433AH with only one radio installed and an Omni. The anticipated upgrade path is to just add a sector or 2 and radio card as needed to the point where I have 3 sectors. Keeping the Omni of course until the third sector is needed. That's something someone already suggested doing and I like the economics of it. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jason Hensley Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:26 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Max 3meg - b only mode on this particular AP. Most are still able to get that, but we're seeing a decline on how many can pull 3meg. At peak times, we've seen it to where users aren't able to get much over 1meg, but that's not happening very often right now. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:23 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Yeah, how much bandwidth are you passing to those 35 customers, Jason? Just curious. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Do you think you're hitting the limit of 802.11b/g or is it the lack of horsepower on the AP's CPU? Greg On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:33 AM, Jason Hensley wrote: On this same subject, would it be better to put up 3 individual AP's, or would something like the Deliberant Quad work well if the issue is AP overload. I have an AP that has 35 subscribers right now. We've seen a performance drop on it and are considering sectoring. Any thoughts on a dual (or quad) radio on a single board vs multiple boards with single radios? -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 6:28 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Mark, If I remember right, you are in Missouri. I was looking for the strength of your omni. We have had good success with 9 db omni's in the Indiana farmland. When we need to sectorize but the market capacity is not that high, we often go to (2) 180 Superpass 9 db sectors. We have had good luck with them over the years. They improve our signal to existing clients and enable affordable expansion in rural areas. If the market will justify 3 sectors, I would go that way though. Many of our Wireless POPs are pico-cells and we try to limit our salesmen to a 6 mile diameter around the tower. Although, we can often go farther, we try to stay inside these guidelines when possible. To achieve a high density of broadcast stations, many locations are needed. Luckily, we are well established in our area and have most of these sites already in operation. Your mileage may vary given your topology and broadcast site density. Rick Harnish -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mark McElvy Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:51 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Sectors I am running 2.4 HPOL It has taken about 1.5 yrs to grow this AP to 32 subs. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 9:37 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors What frequency band and polarization? I would also strongly consider your reasoning for moving from the Omni to the sectors. If it is because your AP is overloaded so you need to offload some, 3 AP's might be attractive for future proofing sakes. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com
[WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure
Since I am probably one of the veterans called out yesterday for my messaging etiquette, I am changing the subject. I am interested in the multiple radios in an enclosure idea. I do have a couple with 5.8 and 2.4 gear in the same box, but have been afraid to put cards in the same band in the same case. The foil spacer you put between cards Bob, do you then ground it to create a sort of Faraday shield? I know the XRx cards do a good job of shielding if you attach the pigtail. How about the receive sensitivity on the 411 cards? Has that been an issue? I think the XR cards have better specs. Wouldn't having multiple 411 cards in the same box possibly have desense issues too? Mike At 09:41 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Forgot to add, if you're concerned with any RF collisions inside the box, the other thing I talked about earlier, having just 3 411 cards in their own box at the sector then running Cat5 to transparent bridge the 411's to a central RouterOS device would take any of that issue totally away. That's one that I'm doing just to do it, basically. Was an idea from someone a couple of months ago. (I actually listen to you guys) Had a 600a doing nothing and some 411 cards so why not play? was my thinking. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:48 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Have you had any issues with putting 3 radio cards in the same spectrum in the same box? I've thought about that but wondered if there would be desense issues where one transmitting desensitizes another one listening. At 08:38 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Yep, looks like you're hitting the wall. We aren't lucky enough to push 3 meg here, the most is usually 1 so again, all depends on your customer base. I'd say if you already have 35 on that one AP, just splitting it into 2 180 degree sectors will just cost you cash as soon as you gain a few more customers. You already have 35 pulling it down, sounds like if you just do 2 180's, if split evenly (and it never will be) that would put you to where you probably want to be for smooth delivery but not much room for more growth. I'd go with 3 120's and a 433AH with 3 cards on it, one per sector. I have a few like that and it works fine for what I do but again, I only dole out 1mb per sub typically. I've also been upgrading some of my remote AP's to one 433AH with only one radio installed and an Omni. The anticipated upgrade path is to just add a sector or 2 and radio card as needed to the point where I have 3 sectors. Keeping the Omni of course until the third sector is needed. That's something someone already suggested doing and I like the economics of it. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jason Hensley Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:26 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Max 3meg - b only mode on this particular AP. Most are still able to get that, but we're seeing a decline on how many can pull 3meg. At peak times, we've seen it to where users aren't able to get much over 1meg, but that's not happening very often right now. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:23 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Yeah, how much bandwidth are you passing to those 35 customers, Jason? Just curious. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:10 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Do you think you're hitting the limit of 802.11b/g or is it the lack of horsepower on the AP's CPU? Greg On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:33 AM, Jason Hensley wrote: On this same subject, would it be better to put up 3 individual AP's, or would something like the Deliberant Quad work well if the issue is AP overload. I have an AP that has 35 subscribers right now. We've seen a performance drop on it and are considering sectoring. Any thoughts on a dual (or quad) radio on a single board vs multiple boards with single radios? -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 6:28 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Mark, If I remember right, you are in Missouri. I was looking for the strength of your omni. We have had good success with 9 db omni's in the Indiana farmland. When we need to sectorize but the market capacity is not that high, we often go to (2) 180 Superpass 9 db sectors. We have had good luck
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure
I am very new to MT, but have been using some and learning. I'll have to see what the 411 is. I have 433s, a 450 and one of the 100s, but no 411s. What is self adhesive plastic? Do you mean that foam double sided tape? Does it hold in the cold? I may have to rethink what I thought I knew. I have always put radios in the same band in separate boxes. It sure would cut down on the number of cat5 cables I have to have running up the tower. I'm still trying to visualize your routerboards mounted perpendicular to the enclosure back wall. Please elaborate. OK, so if I want a good nema box to try some of this, where should I look? Mike At 10:33 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: I have a somewhat large NEMA box (1'x2.5'x3') with 4x RB411AHs with an XR5 in each. At the bottom of the tower, I have a box with an RB493 and all the PoE business. Each RB411 is mounted with self adhesive plastic to some sheet metal. I don't have any experience with self-interference inside an enclosure, but I bought some sheet metal and cut\bent it into L shapes, securing the base to the enclosure with the RouterBoards perpendicular to the enclosure's back wall. I did that just to be safe. Pigtails run from the cards to the bottom of the enclosure. No RouterBoard or radio can line of sight see another. Previously in this same enclosure I had a PC motherboard with an RB14 (modified by MT to support higher power cards) with 4x SR5s on it. I didn't have any apparent RF problems then, but I switched to this other method because I had a phantom lockup problem... every 30 - 45 days it would lock up and I couldn't determine the source. The 411 isn't the card, but the computer you're plugging the cards into. When I did this, the XR5s were the best quality cards available. This exact setup has been in place since this summer and I haven't had any problems yet. The previous system was in place ever since the SR5 came out. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 10:13 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure Since I am probably one of the veterans called out yesterday for my messaging etiquette, I am changing the subject. I am interested in the multiple radios in an enclosure idea. I do have a couple with 5.8 and 2.4 gear in the same box, but have been afraid to put cards in the same band in the same case. The foil spacer you put between cards Bob, do you then ground it to create a sort of Faraday shield? I know the XRx cards do a good job of shielding if you attach the pigtail. How about the receive sensitivity on the 411 cards? Has that been an issue? I think the XR cards have better specs. Wouldn't having multiple 411 cards in the same box possibly have desense issues too? Mike At 09:41 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Forgot to add, if you're concerned with any RF collisions inside the box, the other thing I talked about earlier, having just 3 411 cards in their own box at the sector then running Cat5 to transparent bridge the 411's to a central RouterOS device would take any of that issue totally away. That's one that I'm doing just to do it, basically. Was an idea from someone a couple of months ago. (I actually listen to you guys) Had a 600a doing nothing and some 411 cards so why not play? was my thinking. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:48 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Have you had any issues with putting 3 radio cards in the same spectrum in the same box? I've thought about that but wondered if there would be desense issues where one transmitting desensitizes another one listening. At 08:38 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Yep, looks like you're hitting the wall. We aren't lucky enough to push 3 meg here, the most is usually 1 so again, all depends on your customer base. I'd say if you already have 35 on that one AP, just splitting it into 2 180 degree sectors will just cost you cash as soon as you gain a few more customers. You already have 35 pulling it down, sounds like if you just do 2 180's, if split evenly (and it never will be) that would put you to where you probably want to be for smooth delivery but not much room for more growth. I'd go with 3 120's and a 433AH with 3 cards on it, one per sector. I have a few like that and it works fine for what I do but again, I only dole out 1mb per sub typically. I've also been upgrading some of my remote AP's to one 433AH with only one radio installed and an Omni. The anticipated upgrade path is to just add a sector or 2 and radio card as needed to the point where I have 3 sectors. Keeping the Omni of course
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure
Is your logic to save tower space? Do you still run multiple cat5? What sort of box/where do you get them? I love the innovation I've gleaned from this list. Makes me feel small sometimes. Mike At 10:45 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: The most I have done so far, is to put 7 cards in one box. I don't use shielding between them or anything, and have no known issues, except if I forget and use the diversity mode in the card, instead of locking to the port I'm using. I'm about to upgrade one site to 10 cards in one steel box, but I don't expect any significant issues. currently, the 7 break down as 2 at 2.4 and the rest 5Ghz. two cards overlap, with one being a 20 mhz and one a ten mhz channel on the same center frequency, with not a lot of ill effects. I know, bad form and all, but there's only ONE useable frequency in a certain area of downtown since I staked it out many years ago (nobody else has been able to squat on it and work, apparently), and so I have a sector and a p2p on the same frequencies in the same direction. ONe feeds a busy office in the day, the other is busy residential at night, and I've found no signfiicant change in the main sector's loss overall, while the busy office went from poor behavior to reasonable. I'm going to replace this with a 3.65 p2p shortly. -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:13 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure Since I am probably one of the veterans called out yesterday for my messaging etiquette, I am changing the subject. I am interested in the multiple radios in an enclosure idea. I do have a couple with 5.8 and 2.4 gear in the same box, but have been afraid to put cards in the same band in the same case. The foil spacer you put between cards Bob, do you then ground it to create a sort of Faraday shield? I know the XRx cards do a good job of shielding if you attach the pigtail. How about the receive sensitivity on the 411 cards? Has that been an issue? I think the XR cards have better specs. Wouldn't having multiple 411 cards in the same box possibly have desense issues too? Mike At 09:41 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Forgot to add, if you're concerned with any RF collisions inside the box, the other thing I talked about earlier, having just 3 411 cards in their own box at the sector then running Cat5 to transparent bridge the 411's to a central RouterOS device would take any of that issue totally away. That's one that I'm doing just to do it, basically. Was an idea from someone a couple of months ago. (I actually listen to you guys) Had a 600a doing nothing and some 411 cards so why not play? was my thinking. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:48 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Have you had any issues with putting 3 radio cards in the same spectrum in the same box? I've thought about that but wondered if there would be desense issues where one transmitting desensitizes another one listening. At 08:38 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Yep, looks like you're hitting the wall. We aren't lucky enough to push 3 meg here, the most is usually 1 so again, all depends on your customer base. I'd say if you already have 35 on that one AP, just splitting it into 2 180 degree sectors will just cost you cash as soon as you gain a few more customers. You already have 35 pulling it down, sounds like if you just do 2 180's, if split evenly (and it never will be) that would put you to where you probably want to be for smooth delivery but not much room for more growth. I'd go with 3 120's and a 433AH with 3 cards on it, one per sector. I have a few like that and it works fine for what I do but again, I only dole out 1mb per sub typically. I've also been upgrading some of my remote AP's to one 433AH with only one radio installed and an Omni. The anticipated upgrade path is to just add a sector or 2 and radio card as needed to the point where I have 3 sectors. Keeping the Omni of course until the third sector is needed. That's something someone already suggested doing and I like the economics of it. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jason Hensley Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:26 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Max 3meg - b only mode on this particular AP. Most are still able to get that, but we're seeing a decline on how many can pull 3meg. At peak times, we've seen it to where users aren't able to get much over 1meg, but that's not happening very often right now. -Original Message- From
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure
OK, so I am a long time computer/radio geek, but have never done facebook. I created a facebook. Is that the proper term? Then, all hell broke lose!!! Holy moly I have more friends than I thought I had. Stuff started popping up, it told me Eudora is bad and it can't import my address book, and an old friend who must be a facebook stalker INSTANTLY added me as her friend. Holy crap, what have I done? Mike, add me, I can't seem to find you. Besides, you'll want to see the pic of the woman who added me as her friend. :-) Mike Gilchrist. I want to see those pics. OK, maybe this will be fun BESIDES a tremendous waste of time. hahahahah Mike At 01:03 PM 12/2/2009, you wrote: I put them up on my FaceBook. They say you can share your albums with people not on FaceBook, but in the testing I did... apparently it just takes them to a signup page first. They're there if you're on FaceBook. If you're looking for me, I'm not sure how many Mike Hammetts there are, but I'm sure there's only 1 WISPA and only 1 Mike Hammett in WISPA, so search for WISPA. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure I am very new to MT, but have been using some and learning. I'll have to see what the 411 is. I have 433s, a 450 and one of the 100s, but no 411s. What is self adhesive plastic? Do you mean that foam double sided tape? Does it hold in the cold? I may have to rethink what I thought I knew. I have always put radios in the same band in separate boxes. It sure would cut down on the number of cat5 cables I have to have running up the tower. I'm still trying to visualize your routerboards mounted perpendicular to the enclosure back wall. Please elaborate. OK, so if I want a good nema box to try some of this, where should I look? Mike At 10:33 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: I have a somewhat large NEMA box (1'x2.5'x3') with 4x RB411AHs with an XR5 in each. At the bottom of the tower, I have a box with an RB493 and all the PoE business. Each RB411 is mounted with self adhesive plastic to some sheet metal. I don't have any experience with self-interference inside an enclosure, but I bought some sheet metal and cut\bent it into L shapes, securing the base to the enclosure with the RouterBoards perpendicular to the enclosure's back wall. I did that just to be safe. Pigtails run from the cards to the bottom of the enclosure. No RouterBoard or radio can line of sight see another. Previously in this same enclosure I had a PC motherboard with an RB14 (modified by MT to support higher power cards) with 4x SR5s on it. I didn't have any apparent RF problems then, but I switched to this other method because I had a phantom lockup problem... every 30 - 45 days it would lock up and I couldn't determine the source. The 411 isn't the card, but the computer you're plugging the cards into. When I did this, the XR5s were the best quality cards available. This exact setup has been in place since this summer and I haven't had any problems yet. The previous system was in place ever since the SR5 came out. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 10:13 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure Since I am probably one of the veterans called out yesterday for my messaging etiquette, I am changing the subject. I am interested in the multiple radios in an enclosure idea. I do have a couple with 5.8 and 2.4 gear in the same box, but have been afraid to put cards in the same band in the same case. The foil spacer you put between cards Bob, do you then ground it to create a sort of Faraday shield? I know the XRx cards do a good job of shielding if you attach the pigtail. How about the receive sensitivity on the 411 cards? Has that been an issue? I think the XR cards have better specs. Wouldn't having multiple 411 cards in the same box possibly have desense issues too? Mike At 09:41 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Forgot to add, if you're concerned with any RF collisions inside the box, the other thing I talked about earlier, having just 3 411 cards in their own box at the sector then running Cat5 to transparent bridge the 411's to a central RouterOS device would take any of that issue totally away. That's one that I'm doing just to do it, basically. Was an idea from someone a couple of months ago. (I actually listen to you guys) Had a 600a doing nothing and some 411 cards so why not play? was my thinking
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure
Not sure I buy that. Platinum is the best conductor, then gold, then silver. Copper and aluminum are up there too, and way better than steel. I have an old 50s vintage radio receiver that came out of a submarine. You can place a plastic cased laptop computer right on top of it and there is no noise in the receiver, even at long wave frequencies. The radio cabinet is ultra shielded. The cabinet is 1/8 copper plate. Aluminum conducts almost as well as copper as far as RF shielding goes. Most old lightning rods I've ever met were made of bronze too. Why? It can get hit many times without melting. At 11:41 PM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Aluminum is moderately effective at attenuating microwave rf. Steel is needed to dampen EMP (from lightning strikes). -- From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:35 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure Does die cast aluminum count as metal in this case? Do you normally use steel if not? I use these: http://quicklinkwireless.com/Itemdesc.asp?ic=DCE-H-LG-2eq=Tp= Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: I've given up on this. There is just too much cross talk. I put all radios in the same band in their own METAL enclosure nowadays. I try to keep them at least 3 or 6 feet apart too. Life is much much nicer. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: [WISPA] Multiple Radio cards in an enclosure Since I am probably one of the veterans called out yesterday for my messaging etiquette, I am changing the subject. I am interested in the multiple radios in an enclosure idea. I do have a couple with 5.8 and 2.4 gear in the same box, but have been afraid to put cards in the same band in the same case. The foil spacer you put between cards Bob, do you then ground it to create a sort of Faraday shield? I know the XRx cards do a good job of shielding if you attach the pigtail. How about the receive sensitivity on the 411 cards? Has that been an issue? I think the XR cards have better specs. Wouldn't having multiple 411 cards in the same box possibly have desense issues too? Mike At 09:41 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Forgot to add, if you're concerned with any RF collisions inside the box, the other thing I talked about earlier, having just 3 411 cards in their own box at the sector then running Cat5 to transparent bridge the 411's to a central RouterOS device would take any of that issue totally away. That's one that I'm doing just to do it, basically. Was an idea from someone a couple of months ago. (I actually listen to you guys) Had a 600a doing nothing and some 411 cards so why not play? was my thinking. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:48 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sectors Have you had any issues with putting 3 radio cards in the same spectrum in the same box? I've thought about that but wondered if there would be desense issues where one transmitting desensitizes another one listening. At 08:38 AM 12/2/2009, you wrote: Yep, looks like you're hitting the wall. We aren't lucky enough to push 3 meg here, the most is usually 1 so again, all depends on your customer base. I'd say if you already have 35 on that one AP, just splitting it into 2 180 degree sectors will just cost you cash as soon as you gain a few more customers. You already have 35 pulling it down, sounds like if you just do 2 180's, if split evenly (and it never will be) that would put you to where you probably want to be for smooth delivery but not much room for more growth. I'd go with 3 120's and a 433AH with 3 cards on it, one per sector. I have a few like that and it works fine for what I do but again, I only dole out 1mb per sub typically. I've also been upgrading some of my remote AP's to one 433AH with only one radio installed and an Omni. The anticipated upgrade path is to just add a sector or 2 and radio card as needed to the point where I have 3 sectors. Keeping the Omni of course until the third sector is needed. That's something someone already suggested doing and I like the economics of it. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik Serial Port Monitoring
Cool stuff. Hey Robert, I have a basic stamp programmer and a couple modules. Look in your junk box and trade me something. Mike At 07:16 PM 12/5/2009, you wrote: This is the sort of thing I was thinking of: http://tuxgraphics.org/electronics/200904/embedded-webserver-equipment-control.shtml Something along the lines of a hobbyist kit project - cheap but some legwork involved. Greg On Dec 5, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Robert West wrote: Good thoughts. I'll look those over. I think I have some isolators in my fun box that I ripped out of something I trashed, never thought of that. May as well get fancy and use the GOOD hot glue -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 7:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik Serial Port Monitoring There are some really cool (and cheap) ASIC boards with Ethernet based connectivity that you need to write a custom program for but you could get really fancy with. They have A/D converters and you could monitor the battery voltage accurately, and you could have the device email you at the desired voltage set points and you could have it email you each day with the battery voltage. It would take some work but it could be nice. I would be a little concerned about how well buffered the serial port lines are on the MT board. You might want to use some opto-isolators for your interface. Greg On Dec 5, 2009, at 4:34 PM, Robert West wrote: Before I go over to the MT forums and get treated like an idiot (they are somehow able to see through my clever disguise, darn it!) I'm looking for anyone who has used the serial pins on the Routerboard to send an on/off signal. I have a home brew solar install that runs an AP but there are times, like many cloudy days in a row, things don't charge as well and the battery will drop and then I lose the AP. I have a backup battery I carry with me and I swap the things from time to time but still, sometimes it drops out. I'm cheap, so bear with me here. I know there are lots of things I can buy ($$$) to do what I want to do but I'm a maverick, a rebel, a guy who knows just enough to screw everything up and almost enough to fix some of it. So I only want the MT to send me a message that the battery is low. I have an el-cheapo device, cost me fifteen bucks, that will monitor the battery and turn on 3 lights ,Good, Low and You better get here or the phone is gonna start ringing. If I can take the voltage that is sent to my low led and use that to send a signal to the serial port then I think I'd be almost there. Older versions of RouterOS had a package that would monitor the serial port but from what I read, it's no more. Was it substituted with anything? If so, I can't find it. Any help is welcome, just don't send me to the forums, those guys are ruthless! Robert West Just Micro Digital Services Inc. 740-335-7020 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] It's too darn cold!
Thinsulate is good and light. Redwing has some insulated lace up boots with Thinsulate. They have fiberglass shanks and fiberglass toes instead of steel -- supposed to be safer for electricians. I think the Wrangler jeans with Thinsulate in them are awesome. It's warmer than long johns and regular jeans. Wool socks, with a silk under sock is the answer for warm feet. Some people just use thin tight socks as the first layer, but the two layers is the answer. Thinsulate gloves are the best going. A pair of tight goatskin or deer skin gloves will give you some dexterity. Use a larger pair of gloves with Thinsulate in them over them when you don't need the dexterity. I don't mind the cold. Wind and wind blown snow are my bane. Mike At 01:07 AM 12/7/2009, you wrote: It's cold. I spent all day and most of the night working on a tower and my feet are frozen. Time for new boots and the rest of the winter gear.. Anyone have winter gear that they swear by and not AT? I use steel toed boots (lesson learned the hard and painful way) and usually buy whatever looks good, clothing wise, from TSC. Everything is pretty much worn out, time for crap to keep me warm. Ideas so that I don't freeze to death? And gloves! Man, I never have found gloves I could wear AND use my hands at the same time. So as usual Who loves what and who hates what? Thanks. Bob- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cleaning N Connectors
Don't use steel wool. You will never get all the steel back out. Clean them with warm soapy water and let them dry well. The black you are seeing is probably silver oxide on the silver plating. Silver oxide conducts RF just fine. They can be really black and still work just fine. At 01:51 AM 12/7/2009, you wrote: Another issue I find myself with... Dude gives me 4 2.4GHz Andrews 90 degree sectors. Cool! But I have to take them down if I want them. So I go to take them down. Hey! No LMR-400 on these things! Just naked N connectors... WTF?! Oh yeah, I put them up there but never got around to running any cable. says Wisp operator useta-wannabe. Nice. They were up there naked since spring. Inside of the connectors look okay but still not perfect. I read on the net about using alcohol, sounds bogus unless I'm supposed to drink it until I no longer care. My first thought is steel wool then I imagined myself striping the gold surface of the interior. One connector is a bit black on the outside threads, I attribute this to the large amount of bird crap on the radome. Fun. What's the right way to rehab these things? Never had to deal with this before, I tape everything including the cat. Bob- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cleaning N Connectors
I read black stuff, not corrosion. If they are silver connectors, then it's silver oxide and NOT a problem. In the old days all, and now only the best equipment still use silver connectors. Just like an old dime will turn black once it has skin oils on it, so will a silver connector. Neither of them is hurt by the patina. Mike At 03:29 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote: 2009/12/7 Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com: If it were me? Toss em and start over. Not worth the trouble. Once corrosion starts it's hard to stop it. marlon He could always solder new N connectors to the antenna element, and be good as new. The Andrew sectors are a good unit, it'd be a shame to toss em. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cleaning N Connectors
Bob: The fingers are gold plated and won't corrode either. When you're cleaning them, and since they were outside unprotected, get your close up goggles on and use a toothpick to make sure there is nothing in the space between the fingers. I actually have some ancient silver N right angle adapters that are black, not silver. I use them on various radios in my shack. They work just fine. I do like to put just a little bit NOT MUCH NoAlOx or equivalent on the female threads when I put them back together. Silver connectors are more susceptible to mechanical loosening from thermal changes than the nickle silver ones. Get em tight! Mike At 03:55 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote: I never would have guessed silver though. Someone mentioned that earlier too. At first it looked like rubber tape residue but it had me scratching me head since boy never put any cables on them. Makes perfect sense though. They will probably be okay, I just didn't want to attack them with the steel wool or whatever and screw up what seem to be very nice sectors. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cleaning N Connectors I read black stuff, not corrosion. If they are silver connectors, then it's silver oxide and NOT a problem. In the old days all, and now only the best equipment still use silver connectors. Just like an old dime will turn black once it has skin oils on it, so will a silver connector. Neither of them is hurt by the patina. Mike At 03:29 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote: 2009/12/7 Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com: If it were me? Toss em and start over. Not worth the trouble. Once corrosion starts it's hard to stop it. marlon He could always solder new N connectors to the antenna element, and be good as new. The Andrew sectors are a good unit, it'd be a shame to toss em. --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Cleaning N Connectors
OxGard works too! They usually have that at Menards. Electrical supply house will have NoAlOx. At 04:10 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote: Well boy, ya learned me something! I honestly never heard of NoAlOx before. Looked it up, looks good. I'll have to pick some up for other things as well, looks like. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 5:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cleaning N Connectors Bob: The fingers are gold plated and won't corrode either. When you're cleaning them, and since they were outside unprotected, get your close up goggles on and use a toothpick to make sure there is nothing in the space between the fingers. I actually have some ancient silver N right angle adapters that are black, not silver. I use them on various radios in my shack. They work just fine. I do like to put just a little bit NOT MUCH NoAlOx or equivalent on the female threads when I put them back together. Silver connectors are more susceptible to mechanical loosening from thermal changes than the nickle silver ones. Get em tight! Mike At 03:55 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote: I never would have guessed silver though. Someone mentioned that earlier too. At first it looked like rubber tape residue but it had me scratching me head since boy never put any cables on them. Makes perfect sense though. They will probably be okay, I just didn't want to attack them with the steel wool or whatever and screw up what seem to be very nice sectors. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cleaning N Connectors I read black stuff, not corrosion. If they are silver connectors, then it's silver oxide and NOT a problem. In the old days all, and now only the best equipment still use silver connectors. Just like an old dime will turn black once it has skin oils on it, so will a silver connector. Neither of them is hurt by the patina. Mike At 03:29 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote: 2009/12/7 Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com: If it were me? Toss em and start over. Not worth the trouble. Once corrosion starts it's hard to stop it. marlon He could always solder new N connectors to the antenna element, and be good as new. The Andrew sectors are a good unit, it'd be a shame to toss em. --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
