RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
From: Jon Tan I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate address lines would be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, which regardless of what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by screen readers. Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents too? I.e: The Secretary, Your Club, PO Box 999, Anytown VIC 3000. Australia Post address format rules/recommendations don't allow punctuation. Apparently it messes with the automated sorting. It'd be good to have a method that was independant of local quirks and variations. -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On 10/10/05 3:38 PM, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Read this aloud: 909 anystreet ithaca, new york Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. For this address it doesn't matter, but for this real address it does: Lewisham Road North Prahran VIC Perhaps adding a comma at the end of the first line would indicate a pause to a screen reader? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Usually when telling someone an address your giving it to them as information which they either have to write down or type in. The pause is usually to let them write it down before you go any further. I wonder if there is a way to make the screen reader say what you want it to say for instance if you could preface the whole address with something like "start address" and then end with "end address" then they could know that they could just copy and paste that portion wherever they wanted if they needed it. Buddy Richard Czeiger wrote: Hey Christian. Actually I find when reading an address (or telling it to someone else) I do pause after certain elements: street, suburb, state and postcode (these seem to go togetherfor my internal voice - NSW 2011 - almost like a license plate) Saying the whole address wihout pausing wouldn't make sense R - Original Message - From: Christian Montoya To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry That was me. pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from a screen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through pre as opposed to br /. Do they pause or say "new line"? I think, when all is said and done though that pre does seem better for poetry. Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would be up to the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was not lost to the listener. If you tried to style a poem by e.e. cummings, you would have a boatload of nbsp; and br /. Not pretty at all. Glad we agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when reading an address aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care where the line breaks are? Read this aloud: 909 anystreet ithaca, new york Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. If we want it there for the browser that lacks css we would want the br /. Sometimes line breaks are necessary visually, with or without css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;} method would work too. I would prefer the br /. For another example of where I use br /, I sometimes use it in forms, where I want line breaks with or without css. PS: in terms of the address element itself - check out what's happening over here! http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976 The "resource" term looks like a great way to make an address semantic. -- - C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
This sounds like it's going to turn into another let's all figure out how to use the address tag thing so let me pre-empt that. I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best to use the br / tag in general? What type of content semantically requires a line break. The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the line break has serious semantic value. Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate that the actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example for deomnstration / readability. This is usually presented by a symbol at the end of the first line ( or some such) Any other examples? R - Original Message - From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:47 AM Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would this be semantically correct? Is there a better way? Hope Stewart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Hi Hope, There is nothing evil about the br element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your example, you are using br correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the address element instead of p. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Hope Stewart Date: 10/9/2005 6:47 PM I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would this be semantically correct? Is there a better way? Hope Stewart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the linebreak has serious semantic value. Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate thatthe actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example fordeomnstration / readability. This is usually presented by a symbol at the end of the first line ( or some such)Wouldn't poetry go in the pre tag? Where the structure is retained? Or is that less semantic? -- - C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Richard Czeiger wrote: I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best to use the br / tag in general? What type of content semantically requires a line break. - Original Message - From: Hope Stewart I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use br / in the address example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different elements are (usually) on separate lines? Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard Jon Tan Grow Collective www.gr0w.com - Original Message - From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would this be semantically correct? Is there a better way? Hope Stewart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote: Hi Hope, There is nothing evil about the br element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your example, you are using br correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the address element instead of p. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com I agree with you about br, but address should only be used when it refers to the author or owner of the document http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xhtml2-20021211/mod-text.html#sec_8.2. Regards Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Hope Stewart wrote: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p This may be a good case for an address tag: pAll correspondence should be addressed to:/p address spanThe Secretary/span spanYour Club/span spanPO Box 999/span spanAnytown VIC 3000/span /address It could be argued that instead of the spans, this is a rare case where the br /'s are semantic. Also, an hn tag might be better here than the p. Note: If this isn't contact information for the document, then the address tag would be incorrect. Another option is: dl dtAll corr.../dt ddaddress.../address/dd /dl If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would this be semantically correct? The problem with using an ordered list is that it's not a list. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On 10/10/05 9:47 AM, Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that might be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about br. I'll have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a pleasure! My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard I considered using span but to me the code looks much cleaner and the css has one less item by using br /. (I like the less-is-more concept.) Hope Stewart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Jon Tan said: My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard span has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to avoid using a br / element of two. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
pAll correspondence should be addressed to:/p address spanThe Secretary/span spanYour Club/span spanPO Box 999/span spanAnytown VIC 3000/span /address a) This is IMHO not good use for an address element (context matters). b) spans? Why? The're inline and they're overhead here. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Hope Stewart wrote: How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? Non-CSS browsers dictates where to use br / and/or other forms of content-organizers. If br / is evil, then non-CSS browsers are too. I don't think anyone is seriously considering discarding non-CSS browsers, but many seem to overlook their existence in their hunt for total separation between markup and style. That doesn't make sense. So, in our search for semantically correct markup, we should at least ask Lynx[1][2] if it makes sense -- or not. The answer will kill a lot of semantically correct solutions already present on the web. Georg [1]http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html [2]http://lynx.isc.org/ -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
span has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to avoid using a br / element of two. kind regards Terrence Wood. The hCard format adds meaning to span's in this instance and additonal page weight is tiny. Kind regards Jon Tan www.gr0w.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that might be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about br. I'll have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a pleasure! Yes, you're correct about address: Part of the presentation was also a comment about address being a misnomer with the example in the spec being contradictory or at least not congruent with the actual specification and therefore not suitable for addresses in this context. [...] considered using span but to me the code looks much cleaner and the css has one less item by using br /. (I like the less-is-more concept.) |Hope Stewart I would usally totally agree with the 'less is more' point but I disagree that br / has any intrinsic semantic value - it is purely presentational whereas span could if the hCard micoformat was used and it also neatly solves the visual requirement. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Hope Stewart wrote: I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only for information about the author Which holds true if the address is used to mark up: - the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate site and you're giving the company's contact details) - if it's something like a directory listing where each member gets their own little page, the contact details for that particular member So, the thread starter should give some info on what he's trying to mark up, exactly. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:47:42 +0100, Jon Tan wrote: My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then style span{display:block} with CSS. Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed? warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Mike Brown wrote: Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use br / in the address example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different elements are (usually) on separate lines? You answered your own question: Parts of an address are *usually*, but *not always*, written on separate lines. The best tag to use, were currently available, would probably be the l tag from XHTML 2. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate address lines would be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, which regardless of what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by screen readers. Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents too? I.e: The Secretary, Your Club, PO Box 999, Anytown VIC 3000. Is just as semantically correct as The Secretary, Your Club, PO Box 999, Antown VIC 3000. Regards Jon Tan www.gr0w.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html The ADDRESS element specifies such information as address, signature and authorship for the current document, and typically placed at the top or bottom of the document. When used with %text, the element acts similar to a paragraph with breaks before and after. Example: ADDRESS Newsletter editorBR J.R. BrownBR 8723 Buena Vista, Smallville, CT 01234t;BR Tel: +1 (123) 456 7890 /ADDRESS Graham Cook UA Oz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Terrence Wood wrote: span has absolutely no semantic value, That's not quite true. The spans used in the previous examples do have semantic value: they group together parts of an address. Admittedly, that might not be much, but it's not nothing. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed? Hi Lea, The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference but I would always seek to minimise the block level grouping elements in my mark-up. Jon Tan www.gr0w.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Graham Cook wrote: If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 Hi Graham Without being pedantic, you're quoting from the HTML 3.0 Draft (Expired) which has been superceded by HTML4.01. It's arguable whether address applies to the whole resource or just a document within it, but my personal reading of the spec suggests to me that it's not appropriate for global contact information for a whole resource like a web site which was the example intitally given in the discussion. The HTML4.01 address recommendation is here: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6 Regards Jon Tan www.gr0w.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Lea de Groot wrote: Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed? It's invalid: !ELEMENT address %Inline; ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Jon Tan wrote: The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference but I would always seek to minimise the block level grouping elements in my mark-up. span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4? address divThe Secretary/div Your Club divPO Box 999/div Anytown VIC 3000 /address Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry and I agree but with some reservations. pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from a screen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through pre as opposed to br /. Do they pause or say new line? I think, when all is said and done though that pre does seem better for poetry. Anyway, no else has come forward with any examples of when to use br / apart from in an address. This is a pretty smart group - if we can't find a decent use for it outside this then maybe we shoud get this formallised. In the same way that fieldset elements shouldn't be placed outside a form element, let's tell the W3C to specify that line breaks should not be placed outside of the address tag. At least this will end the debate once and for all about Line Breaks. PS: in terms of the address element itself - check out what's happening over here! http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976 R :o) - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br Hope Stewart wrote: I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only for information about the author Which holds true if the address is used to mark up: - the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate site and you're giving the company's contact details) - if it's something like a directory listing where each member gets their own little page, the contact details for that particular member So, the thread starter should give some info on what he's trying to mark up, exactly. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:18:51 +0200, Mordechai Peller wrote: It's invalid: !ELEMENT address %Inline; What? No, this is used instead of an address element. No one suggested we should put divs inside an address. Jon's reply of matching the hcard microformat is a good one :) Thank you, Jon. warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4? If it was pure presenation, sure, but this was with reference to sematics. A hCard (which was the original idea of the reply) needs more: http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Ref. using address: Mordechai Peller pointed out div within address is invalid. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Jon Tan wrote: It's arguable whether address applies to the whole resource or just a document within it, In many cases, the contact information for a document and that of its site are the same. This is especially true on a Contact Us or an About Us type page. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
I need to rephrase what I said earlier. If you are using the hcard microformat, or you want to apply styles to each constiuent use span. If the previous conditions are not true, then use br, because it has much semantic value as span and uses less markup. span is a generic container for language or style attributes that can be used to give a document structure - like an inline div. In, and of itself it has no semantic meaning, unlike p, h1, h2 which are semantic elements. Used with the hcard format -- and provided my browser knows what hcard is (which would be possible if it has a namespace) -- then yes it would have semantic meaning. kind regards Terrence Wood. email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +64-4-8033354 mobile: +64-21-120-1234 Mordechai Peller said: Terrence Wood wrote: span has absolutely no semantic value, That's not quite true. The spans used in the previous examples do have semantic value: they group together parts of an address. Admittedly, that might not be much, but it's not nothing. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Crikey, I use br / all the time. I did not know I was being so naughty. -Original Message- From: Hope Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 8:48 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would this be semantically correct? Is there a better way? Hope Stewart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en) people write out addresses. It's part of the way we put text on a page, either with a pen, a thumbnail dipped in tar or hitting (carriage-)return (a hangover from typewriters, aka the Enter key) on a keyboard. It's even still known as CR (carriage-return) or LF (line-feed) or both (CRLF) within computer-based text terminology. I know this metaphor has flaws. On a typewriter (excepting the later word processing ones that were aware of the page size) you HAD to use a carriage return or you'd go off the page. Same with a pen, you stop at the edge of the paper and start a new line. But if I handwrite my address, I use line breaks regardless of the width of the page. No, it's not print (from a press or a pen) but we still need to follow the same basics for the written word. I'm not talking about fontography, colour, width of canvas (parchment/paper/screen) or positioning, these should be separated from the content. They are akin to calligraphy in handwriting and changing the ribbon colour (or ink) or the font on the piece of lead or the golf ball on a typewriter. I'm talking about the basics of the written word and they ARE semantic. As for what a screen reader does, we're now talking about the spoken word but I have never heard a screen reader say something like New line or Line-feed when it encounters a brso it still works (if I'm wrong about this please correct me). A single br to force a line break is ok in this context. brbr isn't (and never is). If you need two, mark it up correctly within an appropriate block-level element (container). P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
1. Why use spans and not divs when divs are already block level elements. No need for CSS styling. 2. The main compelling reason to use br's is because semanically that is the right way to do it. Not a big deal I though because a line break is a fairly semantically neurtal thing anyways. Just my thoughts. Alan Trick Jon Tan wrote: Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard Jon Tan Grow Collective www.gr0w.com - Original Message - From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would this be semantically correct? Is there a better way? Hope Stewart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Peter Firminger wrote: This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en) people write out addresses. I second that. I tried to make a point like this a few threads ago and got reamed for it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
I dont' know how it works in the big leagues over at the W3C but I imagine that there's a fair amount of discussion internally about every single little bit they put into their specs. Also, I have a stong feeling that our little mailing list here actually is a significant player into what the W3C does in the future. Certainly we've had their key players chat to us online and in person whenever they're in town. What we say here must at least make their ears prick up a little I think the frustration is that we often keep going over the same ground without consensus or a formalised way of doing something with the arguements we do end up agreeing on. Actually offering something up to the W3C on these issues (line breaks, address, etc...) and say you guys do a great job, but we think the follow section could be clarified and expanded up. If you agree please update the spec and put out a note letting everyone know. Cheers, WSG What do you think? R :o) - Original Message - From: Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br Peter Firminger wrote: This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en) people write out addresses. I second that. I tried to make a point like this a few threads ago and got reamed for it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry That was me. pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through preas opposed to br /. Do they pause or say new line? I think, when all is said and done though that pre does seem better for poetry.Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would be up to the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was not lost to the listener. If you tried to style a poem by e.e. cummings, you would have a boatload of nbsp; and br /. Not pretty at all.Glad we agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when reading an address aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care where the line breaks are? Read this aloud: 909 anystreetithaca, new yorkDid you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. If we want it there for the browser that lacks css we would want the br /. Sometimes line breaks are necessary visually, with or without css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;} method would work too. I would prefer the br /. For another example of where I use br /, I sometimes use it in forms, where I want line breaks with or without css. PS: in terms of the address element itself - check out what's happening over here! http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976 The resource term looks like a great way to make an address semantic.-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On 10/9/05, Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Firminger wrote:This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (WebStandards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en)people write out addresses.I second that. I tried to make a point like this a few threads ago andgot reamed for it. **The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**Actually, they laugh at us because they are dumb. I really don't care. This is a good, educational thread for me. -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Hey Christian. Actually I find when reading an address (or telling it to someone else) I do pause after certain elements: street, suburb, state and postcode (these seem to go togetherfor my internal voice - NSW 2011 - almost like a license plate) Saying the whole address wihout pausing wouldn't make sense R - Original Message - From: Christian Montoya To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry That was me. pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through preas opposed to br /. Do they pause or say "new line"? I think, when all is said and done though that pre does seem better for poetry. Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would be up to the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was not lost to the listener. If you tried to style a poem by e.e. cummings, you would have a boatload of nbsp; and br /. Not pretty at all.Glad we agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when reading an address aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care where the line breaks are? Read this aloud: 909 anystreetithaca, new yorkDid you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. If we want it there for the browser that lacks css we would want the br /. Sometimes line breaks are necessary visually, with or without css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;} method would work too. I would prefer the br /. For another example of where I use br /, I sometimes use it in forms, where I want line breaks with or without css. PS: in terms of the address element itself - check out what's happening over here! http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976 The "resource" term looks like a great way to make an address semantic.-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com