Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[akella]

It's going to be on linux as well
http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/09/moonlight_silve_1.html
Moonlight is the answer

On 10/30/07, Michael MD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In the beta process, they were doing some flipping browser detection
> > **from within the plugin**, and only checked for Safari or Firefox,  as
> > opposed to check for Gecko.
> > The demos I've seen still only work half and half on Mac browsers,  except
> > Firefox 2.0.0.x and Safari.
>
> what about linux browsers?
> I won't go near it if it is locked down to one or two operating systems.
>
> I even avoided using flash for anything other than the occasional animated
> banner until quite recently for the same reason...
> (it was the talk on Flex a few months ago at a WSG Sydney gathering and the
> mention of Flash Player 9 being available on linux that encouraged me to to
> actually take a more serious look at flash/swf/etc!)
>
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
С уважением,
Юрий "akella" Артюх
http://cssing.org.ua

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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Michael MD]

In the beta process, they were doing some flipping browser detection
**from within the plugin**, and only checked for Safari or Firefox,  as 
opposed to check for Gecko.
The demos I've seen still only work half and half on Mac browsers,  except 
Firefox 2.0.0.x and Safari.


what about linux browsers?
I won't go near it if it is locked down to one or two operating systems.

I even avoided using flash for anything other than the occasional animated 
banner until quite recently for the same reason...
(it was the talk on Flex a few months ago at a WSG Sydney gathering and the 
mention of Flash Player 9 being available on linux that encouraged me to to 
actually take a more serious look at flash/swf/etc!)







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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Dave Woods]

As far as I'm aware, it's not something that Google will automatically
ban a site for anyway but if it is being used for black hat tactics
then the site is open to being reported by anyone (possibly a
competitor) which Google may then do a manual check of and ban the
site if they deem the site to be breaking their terms of use.

If display: none; is being used for a legitimate purpose then I
wouldn't worry about it but as I mentioned earlier, it can have a
negative impact on accessibility so as with most things, it depends
how and why you're using this method.

Thanks
Dave
- - - - - - - - - -
http://www.dave-woods.co.uk



On 30/10/2007, Alexander Gounder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> The Fact is that SEOs use this CSS feature (display:none) for cloaking which
> is a Black Hat SEO technique.
>
> Further the whole idea of you showing something(h1-3 tags filled with
> Keywords) to Google or any Search bot and hiding these from you end user
> speaks very bad about your intentions...
>
> Instead if your using this for some other purpose and the effect of this can
> be viewed by the end user then its not considered cloaking and google is
> quite intelligent to know that but the same can't be said about other search
> engines.
>
> So you need to decide on this depending on where your traffic is coming
> from.
>
> Thanks
> Alexander,
> Web Designer and SEO in Mumbai, India
> http://www.ecreeds.com
>
> On 10/29/07, Simon Cockayne < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.
> >
> > Is this true* or did I dream it?
> >
> > *To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
> > detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Simon
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Matthew Cruickshank]

akella wrote:

It's going to be on linux as well
http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/09/moonlight_silve_1.html
Moonlight is the answer
  


Silverlight is patent encumbered and - on Linux - it may only be 
distributed by Novell (due to a patent agreement that lasts 4 years).


This means that it won't appear by default in Debian or Ubuntu (and 
probably Redhat).


To quote Novell,

"to avoid patent problems over Silverlight, when using or developing 
Mono’s implementation (known
as Moonlight), i’s best to ‘get/download Moonlight from Novell which 
will include patent coverage."


[...]

"Moonlight will be able to run on any distro supported by Mono, which 
is most of the major distros. Under the terms of the agreements we 
have with Microsoft, Novell customers are covered by Microsoft’s 
covenant not to sue over patents. In terms of Moonlight, that means 
that, if you download Moonlight from Novell (which is free of charge), 
you are considered a Novell customer of Moonlight, whether you run it 
on SUSE Linux Enterprise or on another distribution. If you get the 
Moonlight code from elsewhere, you are not considered a Novell 
customer, and so don’t fall within the covenant."




.Matthew Cruickshank
http://holloway.co.nz/


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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

[Michael MD]

I actually quite like it.


I thought it was pretty cool too. A bit of experimentation shows that 
there's actually been a fair bit of work put into font-previewing 
interface. Definitely nowhere near the worst site I've seen recently.




I didn't think it was so bad - *except* that there is a lack of text for 
browsers without flash or frames

(and yes - search engines won't see much there either)
... but that is something lacking on a lot of flash-based sites out there so 
it's hardly the "worst"...

... visually it even looks kind of cool...





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Re: [WSG] Site check requested

[willdonovan]

Hi Rick,

I loaded up your page, facinated by your achievement for a semantic 
structure, it looks good, however I'm getting validation errors for the 
DOC type, the img tag and trimming empty on 2 span tags,


Did you get the same?

William



Rick Lecoat wrote:

Hi;

I'm recreating a table-based site that I did a few years back,
rebuilding it (hopefully) to web standards and making it as accessible
as I can. Currently it's one static page and the links largely don't go
anywhere, but I would appreciate feedback from the list before I proceed
with more pages.



It's really my first stab at a semantic markup, fully-CSS, accessible
site; it's also my first ever attempt at an elastic layout, so be merciful.

Many thanks!

  




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Re: [WSG] Site check requested

[Tom Roper]

Looks good on my iPod!

Tom



On 30 Oct 2007, at 12:38, willdonovan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



Hi Rick,

I loaded up your page, facinated by your achievement for a semantic  
structure, it looks good, however I'm getting validation errors for  
the DOC type, the img tag and trimming empty on 2 span tags,


Did you get the same?

William



Rick Lecoat wrote:

Hi;

I'm recreating a table-based site that I did a few years back,
rebuilding it (hopefully) to web standards and making it as  
accessible
as I can. Currently it's one static page and the links largely  
don't go
anywhere, but I would appreciate feedback from the list before I  
proceed

with more pages.



It's really my first stab at a semantic markup, fully-CSS, accessible
site; it's also my first ever attempt at an elastic layout, so be  
merciful.


Many thanks!






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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

[willdonovan]

I dont seem to get any of the flicking effects that everyone is talking 
about.


I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.8

William



Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

Tee G. Peng wrote:

teesworks.com/

Been working on this site in the last 2 days, I find that I am 
getting so  annoyed by the "surprise' everytime the hover pops up.


If I, the site builder,  find it annoying, what will the users find ?


As a user I find that kind of "visual flicker" highly annoying.

I am beginning to think this is causing a usability issue and is 
killing all other usable elements that I work so hard to try to get 
them right.


A 'Skip to content' link may have its uses, but I don't see much need
for one in that design - too few links to skip (at least in that dev 
page).

Basic accessibility is too hard to sell anyway, and I don't see the
point in annoying clients and/or the majority of users with such minor
issues when there are so many other practical issues to take care of and
spend dev-time on.

Personally I don't provide "skip to (whatever)" links in a design unless
there's a client-request for them, and then I style them without any
"flicker" effects.

regards
Georg




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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

[willdonovan]

on the topic of skip links and semantic styling, and to add to the mix 
of usability, accessibility and getting into the habit of best practice,


Accessibility is not just for the impaired, it is also for people who 
access through different devices where CSS has not been styled to suite 
what is being looked at.


I know that mobile isn't a big thing right now, however it is gaining 
pace and there are more internet enabled mobile devices than there are 
desktop computers.


food for thought

William



Tee G. Peng wrote:


On Oct 28, 2007, at 3:56 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:

But the point is that, this accessibility feature is for people who 
can't

use a mouse - i.e. they cannot "click" anywhere.



Ah yah right A good point you have made. I am a 'mouse' user, and 
I do find skip to (content/navigation) useful for me. Now you pointed 
out ( John and other did too but I was blind :) ), makes me realized  
I was mainly viewing this feature from my own' benefit.


Glad that I asked. Sometimes one has to show one's ignorance so one 
can learn something important :)


tee


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Re: [WSG] Site check requested

[JonMarc Wright]

Rick,
the site looks good.  visually i would maybe slow down your animated gif a
bit, or include the company name or slogan or something and have it stop
after going through once or maybe looping just a couple of times and fall to
rest on the name/slogan/whatever.  it's a bit fast and i found the constant
movement to be a slight distraction.

just a thought.

looks outstanding for a first effort!

On 10/30/07, willdonovan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Rick,
>
> I loaded up your page, facinated by your achievement for a semantic
> structure, it looks good, however I'm getting validation errors for the
> DOC type, the img tag and trimming empty on 2 span tags,
>
> Did you get the same?
>
> William
>
>
>
> Rick Lecoat wrote:
> > Hi;
> >
> > I'm recreating a table-based site that I did a few years back,
> > rebuilding it (hopefully) to web standards and making it as accessible
> > as I can. Currently it's one static page and the links largely don't go
> > anywhere, but I would appreciate feedback from the list before I proceed
> > with more pages.
> >
> > 
> >
> > It's really my first stab at a semantic markup, fully-CSS, accessible
> > site; it's also my first ever attempt at an elastic layout, so be
> merciful.
> >
> > Many thanks!
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[willdonovan]

I agree with you Dave,

Google is not about to ban you, however if this is used in combination 
with other known black hat tactics, then you will.


Google will check your CSS but once again, if you are using this 
technique to excess, then you should be worried.


There was talk via a different email thread, and someone raised the same 
SEO concern, people have been using hidden and the CSS off-page 
described regularly for accessibility, and there haven't been any 
stories to date on those using these techniques legitimately and been 
banned by a search engine.


William




Dave Woods wrote:

As far as I'm aware, it's not something that Google will automatically
ban a site for anyway but if it is being used for black hat tactics
then the site is open to being reported by anyone (possibly a
competitor) which Google may then do a manual check of and ban the
site if they deem the site to be breaking their terms of use.

If display: none; is being used for a legitimate purpose then I
wouldn't worry about it but as I mentioned earlier, it can have a
negative impact on accessibility so as with most things, it depends
how and why you're using this method.

Thanks
Dave
- - - - - - - - - -
http://www.dave-woods.co.uk



On 30/10/2007, Alexander Gounder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

Hi everyone,

The Fact is that SEOs use this CSS feature (display:none) for cloaking which
is a Black Hat SEO technique.

Further the whole idea of you showing something(h1-3 tags filled with
Keywords) to Google or any Search bot and hiding these from you end user
speaks very bad about your intentions...

Instead if your using this for some other purpose and the effect of this can
be viewed by the end user then its not considered cloaking and google is
quite intelligent to know that but the same can't be said about other search
engines.

So you need to decide on this depending on where your traffic is coming
from.

Thanks
Alexander,
Web Designer and SEO in Mumbai, India
http://www.ecreeds.com

On 10/29/07, Simon Cockayne < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi,

I am sure I read that CSS's display: none has a detrimental on SEO.

Is this true* or did I dream it?

*To clarify...I am keen to know if it is true that there is a
detrimental impact...not whether it is true that I read it or not.

Cheers,

Simon



  

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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Derek Featherstone]

On 10/30/07, Christian Montoya wrote:

>On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Christian - do you have a reference for that anywhere? I'd be really
>> interested in seeing it (as I'm sure others would be too!)
>
>Just read the spec on XAML, which is what Silverlight uses:
>http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms752059.aspx

Hi Christian - I actually meant a reference on this part of your
statement:

"[because Silverlight uses XML] Microsoft claims that Silverlight is
much easier for screen readers, search spiders, etc. to work with."

Can you show us where they claim it is much easier for screen readers,
search spiders to work with? THAT is what I want to see...

Thanks, and sorry for my lack of clarity...
Derek.
-- 
Derek Featherstone   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel: +1 613-599-9784  1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America)
Work:  http://www.furtherahead.com
Blog:  http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
Learn: http://north.webdirections.org


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Re: [WSG] Site check requested

[Rick Lecoat]

On 30/10/07 (13:38) willdonovan said:

>I loaded up your page, facinated by your achievement for a semantic 
>structure

'Fascinated' is one of those worryingly ambiguous terms... ;-)

> it looks good, however I'm getting validation errors for the 
>DOC type, the img tag and trimming empty on 2 span tags,
>
>Did you get the same?

Thanks for the check-over William; weirdly I'm not getting those
validation errors, either from Web Developer Toolbar or the W3C
validator itself.
What is particularly odd about that is that I thought that I *did* have
one glitch to fix (brought on by a change made to the page since I
originally posted the URL to the group), but it has apparently
evaporated into the ether. Very odd.

The mystery error was indeed on the img tag, and stemmed from the fact
that I misunderstood how a longdesc attribute works -- I had put regular
text in there like an alt  attribute, whereas I believe that it should
be a URL pointing to a descriptive document. (My description --  a
repetition of the text displayed in the animated gif -- was a few
characters too long for a regular alt text).

The wrongly conceived longdesc is still in place, however, so I don't
know why the validation error has vanished, unless the original error
report was a mistake.

Are you using a different validator to me?


-- 
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] Site check requested

[Rick Lecoat]

On 30/10/07 (14:09) JonMarc said:

>Rick,
>the site looks good.  visually i would maybe slow down your animated gif a
>bit, or include the company name or slogan or something and have it stop
>after going through once or maybe looping just a couple of times and fall to
>rest on the name/slogan/whatever.  it's a bit fast and i found the constant
>movement to be a slight distraction.
>
>just a thought.

And a perfectly good thought, at that.
In this case I'm trying to keep the look and feel of the site as close
as CSS will allow to the existing tables-based version that the client
likes (and has been living with for a couple of years), so I'm leaving
as many elements unchanged as possible, and that will include the gif
speed, at least for now.

Also, the speed of the gif does vary according to the computer it's
being viewed on; high spec machines will let it whizz through its
frames, but on some machines (eg girlfriend's iBook) it crawls past.

>looks outstanding for a first effort!

Ah, now THAT just made my day. Thank you.

-- 
Rick Lecoat



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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/30/07, Christian Montoya wrote:
>
> >On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Christian - do you have a reference for that anywhere? I'd be really
> >> interested in seeing it (as I'm sure others would be too!)
> >
> >Just read the spec on XAML, which is what Silverlight uses:
> >http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms752059.aspx
>
> Hi Christian - I actually meant a reference on this part of your
> statement:
>
> "[because Silverlight uses XML] Microsoft claims that Silverlight is
> much easier for screen readers, search spiders, etc. to work with."
>
> Can you show us where they claim it is much easier for screen readers,
> search spiders to work with? THAT is what I want to see...

I know I read it somewhere but unfortunately I didn't save the
article. If I come across it again, I'll send it over. Until then,
assume it's just hearsay.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

[Tee G. Peng]

On Oct 30, 2007, at 5:56 AM, willdonovan wrote:

I dont seem to get any of the flicking effects that everyone is  
talking about.


I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.8



Hi William, thanks for checking. It was eliminated :)

This site has something similar to what I did - I think I must have  
gotten the idea from it ；）


http://www.themaninblue.com/

tee

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[WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Simon Cockayne]

Hey WSG folks,

I am no sycophant...

...but I just wanted to say a general thank you to all the fine souls
who contribute to the WSG mailing list.

I am surefire certain that I don't reply to thank all individuals who
respond to, my, questions...the daily digest is a bit clunky to handle
that...however that doesn't mean I am not entirely grateful for all
time and trouble that goes into the research and pondering.

Over the past few months I have really gotten on the Web Standards
bus...and the accessibility wave...and WSG has played a very, very,
useful part in that.

Anywise...thanks.

Simon


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[WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

[James Jeffery]

What methods do you find best when creating rounded corners and
which methods are the most supported?

I have been using span tags and absolute positioning. I have also
recently started to use the sliding doors method because you can
achive nice rounded boxes with some nice effects, even better if
you use PNG's.

Using the span method i did find a bug in IE 6, the 2 corner span's
wouldn't sit flush with the bottom of the containing div, although it
displayed fine in every other browser i tested it on and they could
be resized fine. It was odd though, because IE 5.x display them
perfect, was just IE 6.

Lets have your beloved methods then guys.

James


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Quoting Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Can you show us where they claim it is much easier for screen readers,
search spiders to work with? THAT is what I want to see...


I recently spotted it in this article
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/05/11/silverlight_programming_q_and_a/

Quoting Keith Smith, product manager of the user experience platform  
and tools team at Microsoft covering Silverlight as well as WPF and  
tools like the new Expression Studio:


"Accessibility and localisation are areas where we think we have some  
very good solutions and tools support. Silverlight will adhere to all  
those standards and support screen readers but the most important  
thing is how easy it is for developers to discover [the accessibility  
options]. The pattern we follow with Ajax is to make smart decisions  
on behalf of the designer and developer ? so if you set the caption on  
a button we make sure that caption is copied automatically to the  
appropriate metadata. And where we can't make a decision on your  
behalf, we offer a quick way to set up accessibility through our  
tools. We have an accessibility checker for ASP.NET and Ajax and we  
want to do the same thing for Silverlight. But where we can put the  
processing burden on the computer, we want to do that."


I'll believe it when I see it, to be honest.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
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http://webstandards.org/
__
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RE: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

[Mohamed Jama]

Depending on the background, if the corners blue and the background is
white then there is no problem a normal gif would do best but if the
background is gradient or patterned then maybe in Photoshop when saving
for web make sure its gif and set the matte option to a color close
enough to the background color.

Or I just use PNG with absolute transparency, I know IE6 doesn't support
it but with the PNGFIX JavaScript it should work just fine.

M. Jama

big:interactive
91 Princedale Road
Holland Park
London W11 4NS
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Direct: +44 (0)20 7313 2262
www.biggroup.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of James Jeffery
Sent: 30 October 2007 15:53
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Rounded Courners  Your Take

What methods do you find best when creating rounded corners and
which methods are the most supported?

I have been using span tags and absolute positioning. I have also
recently started to use the sliding doors method because you can
achive nice rounded boxes with some nice effects, even better if
you use PNG's.

Using the span method i did find a bug in IE 6, the 2 corner span's
wouldn't sit flush with the bottom of the containing div, although it
displayed fine in every other browser i tested it on and they could
be resized fine. It was odd though, because IE 5.x display them
perfect, was just IE 6.

Lets have your beloved methods then guys.

James


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Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

[James Jeffery]

You can try it out for yourself by changing the images to a solid color
and change the font-size in the body to 1em and test in IE5.5.

See what you come up with.

On Oct 30, 2007 4:46 PM, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was having a slight issue using  tags, the problem with IE5.x.
> I fixed it and
> it now displays perfect. I had a problem that when text was made larger in 
> IE5.x
> the 2 corner images to the right would shift one pixel to the left and
> it displayed messy.
>
> If i add font-size: 0.9em to the body it fixes it, if i add font-size:
> 1em the problem is
> still there. Not sure why this happens, but would love to know. It is
> fixed by the way,
> im just curious:
>
> 
>
>  "http://w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";>
> 
> 
>
> Rounded Corners Test
>
> 
>
> html * {margin:0; padding:0;}
>
> body {padding: 1em; font-size: .9em}
>
> #news {
> position: relative;
> background: black;
> width: 15em;
> color: white;
> padding: 1em;}
>
> #news span {
> width: 9px; height: 9px;
> position: absolute;}
> #topLeft {
> background: url("images/topLeft.gif") top left 
> no-repeat;
> left: 0; top: 0;}
> #topRight {
> background: url("images/topRight.gif") top right 
> no-repeat;
> right: 0; top: 0;}
> #bottomLeft {
> background: url("images/bottomLeft.gif") bottom left 
> no-repeat;
> left: 0; bottom: 0;}
> #bottomRight {
> background: url("images/bottomRight.gif") bottom 
> right no-repeat;
> right: 0; bottom: 0;}
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
> 
>
> This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows 
> for expansion
> This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows 
> for expansion
> This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows 
> for expansion
> This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows 
> for expansion
>
> 
> 
>
> 
>
> 
> 
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2007 4:18 PM, Mohamed Jama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Depending on the background, if the corners blue and the background is
> > white then there is no problem a normal gif would do best but if the
> > background is gradient or patterned then maybe in Photoshop when saving
> > for web make sure its gif and set the matte option to a color close
> > enough to the background color.
> >
> > Or I just use PNG with absolute transparency, I know IE6 doesn't support
> > it but with the PNGFIX JavaScript it should work just fine.
> >
> > M. Jama
> >
> > big:interactive
> > 91 Princedale Road
> > Holland Park
> > London W11 4NS
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Direct: +44 (0)20 7313 2262
> > www.biggroup.co.uk
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Behalf Of James Jeffery
> > Sent: 30 October 2007 15:53
> > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> > Subject: [WSG] Rounded Courners  Your Take
> >
> > What methods do you find best when creating rounded corners and
> > which methods are the most supported?
> >
> > I have been using span tags and absolute positioning. I have also
> > recently started to use the sliding doors method because you can
> > achive nice rounded boxes with some nice effects, even better if
> > you use PNG's.
> >
> > Using the span method i did find a bug in IE 6, the 2 corner span's
> > wouldn't sit flush with the bottom of the containing div, although it
> > displayed fine in every other browser i tested it on and they could
> > be resized fine. It was odd though, because IE 5.x display them
> > perfect, was just IE 6.
> >
> > Lets have your beloved methods then guys.
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > ***
> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > ***
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ***
> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > ***
> >
> >
>


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Re: [WSG] SilverLight

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 30 Oct 2007, at 16:01, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


I recently spotted it in this article
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/05/11/ 
silverlight_programming_q_and_a/


Quoting Keith Smith, product manager of the user experience  
platform and tools team at Microsoft covering Silverlight as well  
as WPF and tools like the new Expression Studio:


"The pattern we follow with Ajax is to make smart decisions on  
behalf of the designer and developer"


When Microsoft say that kind of thing, my heart grows heavy with  
trepidation... remember all the grief they've caused in the past with  
stuff like determining how to display content by using assorted  
heuristics rather than just obeying the Content-Type HTTP header? All  
inspired by the idea that MS know what you really meant, and can  
"make smart decisions on your behalf", presumably because you can't  
make them yourself.


I'm reminded of a blog comment I read earlier today by a chap called  
barbecuesteve concerning the just-announced null characters exploit:
This really illustrates my fundamental problem with Microsoft’s  
attitude.


“The data you have is not accurate. Here, let me fix it for you.”

As if Microsoft is the sole determiner of what constitutes accurate  
data and what doesn’t.



Regards,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/

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Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

[James Jeffery]

I was having a slight issue using  tags, the problem with IE5.x.
I fixed it and
it now displays perfect. I had a problem that when text was made larger in IE5.x
the 2 corner images to the right would shift one pixel to the left and
it displayed messy.

If i add font-size: 0.9em to the body it fixes it, if i add font-size:
1em the problem is
still there. Not sure why this happens, but would love to know. It is
fixed by the way,
im just curious:



http://w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";>



Rounded Corners Test



html * {margin:0; padding:0;}

body {padding: 1em; font-size: .9em}

#news {
position: relative;
background: black;
width: 15em;
color: white;
padding: 1em;}

#news span {
width: 9px; height: 9px;
position: absolute;}
#topLeft {
background: url("images/topLeft.gif") top left 
no-repeat;
left: 0; top: 0;}
#topRight {
background: url("images/topRight.gif") top right 
no-repeat;
right: 0; top: 0;}
#bottomLeft {
background: url("images/bottomLeft.gif") bottom left 
no-repeat;
left: 0; bottom: 0;}
#bottomRight {
background: url("images/bottomRight.gif") bottom right 
no-repeat;
right: 0; bottom: 0;}












This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows for 
expansion
This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows for 
expansion
This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows for 
expansion
This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows for 
expansion









On Oct 30, 2007 4:18 PM, Mohamed Jama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Depending on the background, if the corners blue and the background is
> white then there is no problem a normal gif would do best but if the
> background is gradient or patterned then maybe in Photoshop when saving
> for web make sure its gif and set the matte option to a color close
> enough to the background color.
>
> Or I just use PNG with absolute transparency, I know IE6 doesn't support
> it but with the PNGFIX JavaScript it should work just fine.
>
> M. Jama
>
> big:interactive
> 91 Princedale Road
> Holland Park
> London W11 4NS
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Direct: +44 (0)20 7313 2262
> www.biggroup.co.uk
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of James Jeffery
> Sent: 30 October 2007 15:53
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Rounded Courners  Your Take
>
> What methods do you find best when creating rounded corners and
> which methods are the most supported?
>
> I have been using span tags and absolute positioning. I have also
> recently started to use the sliding doors method because you can
> achive nice rounded boxes with some nice effects, even better if
> you use PNG's.
>
> Using the span method i did find a bug in IE 6, the 2 corner span's
> wouldn't sit flush with the bottom of the containing div, although it
> displayed fine in every other browser i tested it on and they could
> be resized fine. It was odd though, because IE 5.x display them
> perfect, was just IE 6.
>
> Lets have your beloved methods then guys.
>
> James
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


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RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Frank Palinkas]

/* And where we can't make a decision on your behalf, we offer a quick way to
set up accessibility through our tools. */

Concerning AJAX and Silverlight - I only pray that their interpretation ARIA
is not just another opera solo.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 18:01 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

Quoting Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Can you show us where they claim it is much easier for screen readers,
>> search spiders to work with? THAT is what I want to see...

I recently spotted it in this article
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/05/11/silverlight_programming_q_and_a/

Quoting Keith Smith, product manager of the user experience platform  
and tools team at Microsoft covering Silverlight as well as WPF and  
tools like the new Expression Studio:

"Accessibility and localisation are areas where we think we have some  
very good solutions and tools support. Silverlight will adhere to all  
those standards and support screen readers but the most important  
thing is how easy it is for developers to discover [the accessibility  
options]. The pattern we follow with Ajax is to make smart decisions  
on behalf of the designer and developer ? so if you set the caption on  
a button we make sure that caption is copied automatically to the  
appropriate metadata. And where we can't make a decision on your  
behalf, we offer a quick way to set up accessibility through our  
tools. We have an accessibility checker for ASP.NET and Ajax and we  
want to do the same thing for Silverlight. But where we can put the  
processing burden on the computer, we want to do that."

I'll believe it when I see it, to be honest.

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__



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Re: [WSG] How z-index works

[John Faulds]

That's weird, it's working today. :?

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:57:05 +1000, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:




http://tjkdesign.com/articles/z-index/teach_yourself_how_elements_stack.asp


OK, this is obviously not an isolated occurrence anymore. I've tried to
look at your site 3 times now in the last couple of weeks Thierry and  
can



never get it to load.


Hi John.
Sorry to hear that, but I don't know what to say as nobody else has  
reported

having problems :(





--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590



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Re: [WSG] card sort with disabled users (OT?)

[lisa herrod]

hi Andreas

On 30/10/2007, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> I am working on a website that targets people with many different
> disabilities. So that will include users with visual, mental, hearing or
> physical impairments.
>
> The website has got quite a large amount of content, so in a normal
> situation I would conduct a card sort to get feedback from all target
> groups
> as to how to structure the information. But I am wrecking my brain at the
> moment how to best put this into practice with the group of users I have.
> Using normal index cards for the card sort probably won't be a good idea
> in
> particular for some of the visually disabled users. Also normally I would
> let the users create new cards/categories by writing on the index cards,
> but
> this could be a problem with some of the physically disabled users.
>
>
> Maybe somebody has got a different suggestion on how to achieve this?
>
> Thanks heaps.
>
> Andreas.




I think you probably need to work with individual groups in a way that is
appropriate for them, rather than trying to find one way to do it all.  For
example, unless you transpose labels into braille (for the blind users who
read Braille) you'll probably need to read out the cards and write down the
answers. Obviously this wouldn't be appropriate for the deaf users.

For the deaf participants, this actually requires other considerations. I
would ask them to read the cards and write the labels themselves. But you
really need to engage an interpreter if you're planning on working with deaf
participants. And I want to stress here that it's really essential that if
you're including deaf users in card sorting activities (which focuses on
content and navigation labelling etc.) you remember that Auslan and English
are two unique languages. most likely English will be their second language.
So in essence this is an ESL consideration as well. Please don't rely on lip
reading (I don't mean to infer that you would Andreas). I have to say
personally I find that really very offensive and dismissive of the
participants needs. And on a technical point, you will not know how much
information the participant has clearly understood e.g. when briefing/
giving instructions for the session. This goes for providing a written
explanation as well.

Users with physical disabilities may require other support, such as writing,
but this will depend on the individual and the assistive technology they're
using.

Given your work you're probably already aware of this, but I thought it
might be useful info for others on the list.

I understand your concerns about your time and effort, but for the sake of
data integrity, if you have to establish different ways of working with each
profile to get accurate results, then there really isn't a choice.

Have a look at this online card sorting tool, I don't really think it's
going to help you much in this situation, but it is a good tool and there
may be something you can use it for, even if it makes recording participant
responses easier for you.

http://www.optimalsort.com/pages/default.html

All the best! It sounds like a really interesting project...

lisa

-- 
Lisa Herrod
Web Usability: User Experience Research, Consulting and Training

Business: http://www.Scenarioseven.com.au
Blog: http://www.Scenariogirl.com


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Re: [WSG] How z-index works

[Mark Harris]

John Faulds wrote:

That's weird, it's working today. :?


Sounds like transient DNS proxy issues to me


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Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

[James Ellis]

Hi James

I got so sick of doing rounded corners and having to open a graphics program 
to change them (Hey, I'm a developer) when the design changed that I wrote 
PHP script using Imagick2.0 that draws the quadrants using the correct 
foreground colour, background color (or transparent), border size, rotation 
and border width.

Now instead of opening up inkscape it's just a call to a PHP script like:

background-image: url(corner.png.php?fgc=ccc&bs=1&bgc=000&bc=fff&r=90);

which is a grey corner with a 1px white border and black background.

Of course if the background is transparent it breaks badly in IE6, but there 
are workarounds for that.

Then I use absolute positioning within a relative position box to place the 
corners in the right places.

I'm so Web 0.9rc2 that I don't have a blog - If I get my act together I'll 
post a script to one somewhere.

Interestingly enough, Opera 9.5 and hopefully Firefox 3 will support SVG 
backgrounds which means you can have resizable background images that change 
size as the containing box changes size. And theSVG is just XML so it can 
easily be generated programmatically.

http://my.opera.com/Fyrd/blog/2007/09/07/svg-multiple-images-and-rounded-corners
http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/new-development-techniques-using-opera-k/

Cheers
James


On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:53:03 am James Jeffery wrote:
> What methods do you find best when creating rounded corners and
> which methods are the most supported?
>
> I have been using span tags and absolute positioning. I have also
> recently started to use the sliding doors method because you can
> achive nice rounded boxes with some nice effects, even better if
> you use PNG's.
>
> Using the span method i did find a bug in IE 6, the 2 corner span's
> wouldn't sit flush with the bottom of the containing div, although it
> displayed fine in every other browser i tested it on and they could
> be resized fine. It was odd though, because IE 5.x display them
> perfect, was just IE 6.
>
> Lets have your beloved methods then guys.
>
> James
>
>
> ***
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Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

[akella]

May be i'm missing something, but what's wrong with wrapping divs?
Much more stable approach...
smth like this:


[content]

.wr1{background:url(corner-top-left.png)}
...

On 10/30/07, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You can try it out for yourself by changing the images to a solid color
> and change the font-size in the body to 1em and test in IE5.5.
>
> See what you come up with.
>
> On Oct 30, 2007 4:46 PM, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I was having a slight issue using  tags, the problem with IE5.x.
> > I fixed it and
> > it now displays perfect. I had a problem that when text was made larger in 
> > IE5.x
> > the 2 corner images to the right would shift one pixel to the left and
> > it displayed messy.
> >
> > If i add font-size: 0.9em to the body it fixes it, if i add font-size:
> > 1em the problem is
> > still there. Not sure why this happens, but would love to know. It is
> > fixed by the way,
> > im just curious:
> >
> > 
> >
> >  > "http://w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";>
> > 
> > 
> >
> > Rounded Corners Test
> >
> > 
> >
> > html * {margin:0; padding:0;}
> >
> > body {padding: 1em; font-size: .9em}
> >
> > #news {
> > position: relative;
> > background: black;
> > width: 15em;
> > color: white;
> > padding: 1em;}
> >
> > #news span {
> > width: 9px; height: 9px;
> > position: absolute;}
> > #topLeft {
> > background: url("images/topLeft.gif") top left 
> > no-repeat;
> > left: 0; top: 0;}
> > #topRight {
> > background: url("images/topRight.gif") top right 
> > no-repeat;
> > right: 0; top: 0;}
> > #bottomLeft {
> > background: url("images/bottomLeft.gif") bottom 
> > left no-repeat;
> > left: 0; bottom: 0;}
> > #bottomRight {
> > background: url("images/bottomRight.gif") bottom 
> > right no-repeat;
> > right: 0; bottom: 0;}
> >
> > 
> >
> > 
> >
> > 
> >
> > 
> >
> > 
> > 
> >
> > This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows 
> > for expansion
> > This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows 
> > for expansion
> > This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows 
> > for expansion
> > This is an example of a rounded corners Div that allows 
> > for expansion
> >
> > 
> > 
> >
> > 
> >
> > 
> > 
> >
> >
> > On Oct 30, 2007 4:18 PM, Mohamed Jama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Depending on the background, if the corners blue and the background is
> > > white then there is no problem a normal gif would do best but if the
> > > background is gradient or patterned then maybe in Photoshop when saving
> > > for web make sure its gif and set the matte option to a color close
> > > enough to the background color.
> > >
> > > Or I just use PNG with absolute transparency, I know IE6 doesn't support
> > > it but with the PNGFIX JavaScript it should work just fine.
> > >
> > > M. Jama
> > >
> > > big:interactive
> > > 91 Princedale Road
> > > Holland Park
> > > London W11 4NS
> > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Direct: +44 (0)20 7313 2262
> > > www.biggroup.co.uk
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > On Behalf Of James Jeffery
> > > Sent: 30 October 2007 15:53
> > > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> > > Subject: [WSG] Rounded Courners  Your Take
> > >
> > > What methods do you find best when creating rounded corners and
> > > which methods are the most supported?
> > >
> > > I have been using span tags and absolute positioning. I have also
> > > recently started to use the sliding doors method because you can
> > > achive nice rounded boxes with some nice effects, even better if
> > > you use PNG's.
> > >
> > > Using the span method i did find a bug in IE 6, the 2 corner span's
> > > wouldn't sit flush with the bottom of the containing div, although it
> > > displayed fine in every other browser i tested it on and they could
> > > be resized fine. It was odd though, because IE 5.x display them
> > > perfect, was just IE 6.
> > >
> > > Lets have your beloved methods then guys.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > >
> > > ***
> > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > *

Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

[James Jeffery]

Nothing wrong with it to my knowledge. I find semantic wise, both are
invalid, this is no fault of the designer, its a limitation to do with CSS.

I have never really used the div method.

On Oct 30, 2007 11:39 PM, akella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> May be i'm missing something, but what's wrong with wrapping divs?
> Much more stable approach...
> smth like this:
>
> 
> [content]
> 
> .wr1{background:url(corner-top-left.png)}
> ...
>
> On 10/30/07, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You can try it out for yourself by changing the images to a solid color
> > and change the font-size in the body to 1em and test in IE5.5.
> >
> > See what you come up with.
> >
> > On Oct 30, 2007 4:46 PM, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > I was having a slight issue using  tags, the problem with IE5.x.
> > > I fixed it and
> > > it now displays perfect. I had a problem that when text was made larger 
> > > in IE5.x
> > > the 2 corner images to the right would shift one pixel to the left and
> > > it displayed messy.
> > >
> > > If i add font-size: 0.9em to the body it fixes it, if i add font-size:
> > > 1em the problem is
> > > still there. Not sure why this happens, but would love to know. It is
> > > fixed by the way,
> > > im just curious:
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > >  > > "http://w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";>
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > > Rounded Corners Test
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > html * {margin:0; padding:0;}
> > >
> > > body {padding: 1em; font-size: .9em}
> > >
> > > #news {
> > > position: relative;
> > > background: black;
> > > width: 15em;
> > > color: white;
> > > padding: 1em;}
> > >
> > > #news span {
> > > width: 9px; height: 9px;
> > > position: absolute;}
> > > #topLeft {
> > > background: url("images/topLeft.gif") top left 
> > > no-repeat;
> > > left: 0; top: 0;}
> > > #topRight {
> > > background: url("images/topRight.gif") top right 
> > > no-repeat;
> > > right: 0; top: 0;}
> > > #bottomLeft {
> > > background: url("images/bottomLeft.gif") bottom 
> > > left no-repeat;
> > > left: 0; bottom: 0;}
> > > #bottomRight {
> > > background: url("images/bottomRight.gif") bottom 
> > > right no-repeat;
> > > right: 0; bottom: 0;}
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > > This is an example of a rounded corners Div that 
> > > allows for expansion
> > > This is an example of a rounded corners Div that 
> > > allows for expansion
> > > This is an example of a rounded corners Div that 
> > > allows for expansion
> > > This is an example of a rounded corners Div that 
> > > allows for expansion
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > > On Oct 30, 2007 4:18 PM, Mohamed Jama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Depending on the background, if the corners blue and the background is
> > > > white then there is no problem a normal gif would do best but if the
> > > > background is gradient or patterned then maybe in Photoshop when saving
> > > > for web make sure its gif and set the matte option to a color close
> > > > enough to the background color.
> > > >
> > > > Or I just use PNG with absolute transparency, I know IE6 doesn't support
> > > > it but with the PNGFIX JavaScript it should work just fine.
> > > >
> > > > M. Jama
> > > >
> > > > big:interactive
> > > > 91 Princedale Road
> > > > Holland Park
> > > > London W11 4NS
> > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Direct: +44 (0)20 7313 2262
> > > > www.biggroup.co.uk
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > On Behalf Of James Jeffery
> > > > Sent: 30 October 2007 15:53
> > > > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> > > > Subject: [WSG] Rounded Courners  Your Take
> > > >
> > > > What methods do you find best when creating rounded corners and
> > > > which methods are the most supported?
> > > >
> > > > I have been using span tags and absolute positioning. I have also
> > > > recently started to use the sliding doors method because you can
> > > > achive nice rounded boxes with some nice effects, even better if
> > > > you use PNG's.
> > > >
> > > > Using the span method i did find a bug in IE 6, the 2 corner span's
> > > > wouldn't sit flush with the bottom of the containing div, although it

[WSG] PHI and YUI Grids

[James Jeffery]

Does the Yahoo Grid framework have any relation to the golden rule
(ie: Divine Proportion)?

I am slowly learning to create aesthetically pleasing web designs,
although i would never us
the Yahoo framework does it have any relation? Or is YUI Grid system
just a way to place
blocks on the page?

Cheer.


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RE: [WSG] card sort with disabled users (OT?)

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of lisa herrod
> 
> I think you probably need to work with individual groups in a way that
> is appropriate for them, rather than trying to find one way to do it
> all.  For example, unless you transpose labels into braille (for the
> blind users who read Braille) you'll probably need to read out the
> cards and write down the answers. Obviously this wouldn't be
> appropriate for the deaf users.
 
Yeah, I was afraid that it would come down to this. It will require a lot
more planning beforehand, because I will need to find out what exact
disabilities each of the users have and need to consider individual
limitations. And I won't be able to just chuck all people with visual
disabilities into one pot. Reading out cards will be very hard. I mean, card
sort is such a visual tool, I personally would never want to try to do a
card sort without constantly seeing the words in front of me. 

Users with hearing disabilities will be easier in that way. 

Physical disabilities could be difficult depending on the user. But as long
as they can express which card to move into which group or how they want to
label groups its fine. I just need to ensure that the cards are lying in a
position where the user can easily see them. Some users may have
difficulties looking down onto a flat table all the time. 

Phhh... this is certainly going to be a tough one.

> Have a look at this online card sorting tool, I don't really think it's
> going to help you much in this situation, but it is a good tool and
> there may be something you can use it for, even if it makes recording
> participant responses easier for you.
> 
> http://www.optimalsort.com/pages/default.html

That's not bad! As you said, it probably won't work for this situation, but
it's good to know there's an online card sort tool that I could use. Might
be handy in some situations.

Thanks for the reply.



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RE: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

[Paul Bennett]

> Now instead of opening up inkscape it's just a call to a PHP script like:
> background-image: url(corner.png.php?fgc=ccc&bs=1&bgc=000&bc=fff&r=90);

So for everytime the css file is called, your script has to create an image? 
Has this impacted on your sites / servers performance any?

Have you considered a caching solution - where the new image is generated then 
stored static until it needs to change again?

Also, there's always things like this using the Dom & JavaScript:
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200505/transparent_custom_corners_and_borders/
 


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RE: [WSG] PHI and YUI Grids

[Paul Bennett]

You mean the 'Golden Mean'? Not that I can see - grids offers a variety of 
column widths and nesting. You do a large variety of things with it and column 
widths don't appear to be golden mean base, but based on Yahoo's enormous 
experience .

> I am slowly learning to create aesthetically pleasing web designs, although i 
> would never use the Yahoo framework 

As someone who is getting ready to implement grids for a large government 
project, may I ask why not?


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Re: [WSG] PHI and YUI Grids

[James Jeffery]

Its a personal reason.

I like to do everything from design, to build, to backend scripting to
deploying. I find
its less hassle to create my own layouts for the job i am working on.
Im the same
with JS and PHP, even though there are pre compiled scripts out there,
i would rather
create my own, so at least when i can't find the answer to a problem i will have
the experience to create it.

There are alot of aids out there, but i am a man of dry grass and 2
flints, i will create
a fire with the bare essentials.

I worked for a company, and many of the developers were questioning
the use of YUI
Grids, the boss said he took to much pride in his company to base his
developments
around someone else's creation, i feel that was a bit strong, but
there are alot of
people that don't and won't use them.

On Oct 31, 2007 12:18 AM, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You mean the 'Golden Mean'? Not that I can see - grids offers a variety of 
> column widths and nesting. You do a large variety of things with it and 
> column widths don't appear to be golden mean base, but based on Yahoo's 
> enormous experience .
>
> > I am slowly learning to create aesthetically pleasing web designs, although 
> > i would never use the Yahoo framework
>
> As someone who is getting ready to implement grids for a large government 
> project, may I ask why not?
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] CSS display: none has SEO impact?

[Michael MD]

Google is not about to ban you, however if this is used in combination 
with other known black hat tactics, then you will.


Google will check your CSS but once again, if you are using this technique 
to excess, then you should be worried.


There was talk via a different email thread, and someone raised the same 
SEO concern, people have been using hidden and the CSS off-page described 
regularly for accessibility, and there haven't been any stories to date on 
those using these techniques legitimately and been banned by a search 
engine.



I don't see any evidence in the server logs here of googlebot even looking 
at css files (despite thousands of hits by googlebot on pages that return 
html),
however I am sure that if someone complained or someone at google comes 
across suspicious or "spammy" data they will manually check on it.


So I don't think legitimate use would be a problem. 





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[WSG] html & css review wanted

[Nick Cowie]

Got to build new template for work, so if you could look at:
http://nickcowie.com/other/template/index.html
And do a critical review of the HTML and CSS (though ignore the poor
structure, lack of annotations and a dodgy bit of ie only code to centre the
ul in the footer) in layout.css (to be fixed)

ie could I do it better, did I use some dodgy techniques, is there a way to
align the top menu 2nd border with the divider between navigation and
content in safari and opera (it works in IE and FF). It is the problems of
using ems for on a grid heavy  ayout and then having to adjust for single
pixel width dividers using negative margins.

Known problems
The javascript assumes 16px base font size, that is to be fixed.
IE5.5 and below box model (also to be fixed)
ps does it work in IE7 and Opera for Mac (weird stuff happened but I need to
upgrade)?
footer in centred will everything else is grid based.


Thanks





-- 
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com


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[WSG] Re: SilverLight

[Scott Barnes]

Hi,

It warms my dear heart to see Silverlight talked about in a forum like this! :)

I'll help if I may clear up a few things around Silverlight.


* Silverlight SEO/Usability - At this point it's primitive, but we are 
working with folks from around the globe to firm this up some more, when it 
will be firmed up is something I don't have dates around. Suffice to say it's 
on the agenda and with US 508 being quite strict, obviously there is a desire 
to make sure this happens. That being said, given that the XAML has to be 
well-formed XML this can now lead to some interesting approaches to XLST 
specific data from XAML to . In that if Usability 
Engines like JAWS etc wanted to focus on this space, they could practically do 
a lot of the leg work themselves.

Michael and Jeff Wilcox have done some work around getting under the covers of 
Silverlight XAML / JavaScript and using it for Good instead of Evil (heh). You 
can find more about this journey here: 
http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog/archive/2007/10/01/using-web-analytics-with-silverlight.aspx
 and 
http://blogs.msdn.com/synergist/archive/2007/10/03/other-silverlight-seo-techniques.aspx



* Browsers! - We have compatibility with Safari, Firefox and obviously 
Internet Explorer. We are working with the Opera folks but no specifics around 
that, suffice to say last time I spoke with the teams in Redmond it was 
something they were taking serious (obviously). I use an iMac and debug with it 
a lot, so how's that for going against the Microsoft grain ;) heh.



* Platforms - We work on OSX (Leopard works, but.. like all stuff atm, 
give it a couple months to really back that statement up), Windows Vista and 
via the Moonlight project we are obviously looking to branch out in that space. 
There are some patent issues our legal folks are working through to ensure that 
it's all smoothed out and what not, but this is a big step for Microsoft in 
this space and so we are learning as we go via the guidance of the Moonlight 
team (whom are awesome).



* DLR - Check out the DLR if .NET / C# isn't your cup of tea. There are 
languages popping up all over the shop around writing code to produce 
Silverlight (ie Bluedragon folks are working on CFML + Silverlight - that's 
right, writing CFML in client-side... isn't that a ghost busters moment? I.e. 
don't cross the streams?). It's pretty exciting to see this happen to be openly 
honest.


Let me know if i can help in anyway shape or form as It's not all that bad - 
yet I'm wearing the Microsoft logo, so i guess I'm biased :) (that being said 
9months ago I was a Flex Fanboi, so i can help with some cross-wiring there).


--
Scott Barnes
(RIA Evangelist)
Microsoft Pty | Blog: 
http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog | Office: +61 (2) 88179139 | Mobile: 
0439-072-184
Twitter: twitter.com/mossyblog | MSN: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
P Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail



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RE: [WSG] PHI and YUI Grids

[Paul Minty]

WSGers,

We've been using the YUI for a while. We wrote our own variant to
support the proportions that our Art Director likes to use, which
include the Golden Mean.

It's boosted our front end development speed and means we can start
getting consitent layout hapenning when we develop HTML prototypes as
well. It also gives us a head start when we are browser testing.

It was pretty easy to re-write the CSS to support the proportional grids
that we want to use. Remember that constraining widths is easy enough,
but constraining heights is a real pain if you want the user to be able
to resize text.

Cheers
Paul 


Paul Minty Director

mintleaf studio 
We design & create stylish websites

Post: Box 6 108 Flinders Street Melbourne VIC 3000
Level 2 108 Flinders Street Melbourne
T. 03 9662 9344   
F. 03 9662 9255   
M. 0418 307 475
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mintleafstudio.com.au


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Paul Bennett
Sent: Wednesday, 31 October 2007 11:30 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] PHI and YUI Grids

You mean the 'Golden Mean'? Not that I can see - grids offers a variety
of column widths and nesting. You do a large variety of things with it
and column widths don't appear to be golden mean base, but based on
Yahoo's enormous experience .

> I am slowly learning to create aesthetically pleasing web designs, 
> although i would never use the Yahoo framework

As someone who is getting ready to implement grids for a large
government project, may I ask why not?


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Re: [WSG] Rounded Courners .... Your Take

[Christian Snodgrass]

I also prefer using the  tags. I think it's as semantically valid 
as , which neither of them really are.


The idea for a PHP round corners script is a very interesting one as 
well. I'd be interested in seeing that script.


--

Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/
Phone: 859.816.7955



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RE: [WSG] Re: SilverLight

[Scott Barnes]

A lot of sins have to be forgiven :) heh.. I can't give any more on this as I 
don't enjoy spending time with our legal team. Suffice to say, it's being 
worked out :) (I know that has to suck as an answer, but ) heh.

Scott / Microsoft.
p.s nice youtube! :) (would look better in HD Silverlight hehe).


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew 
Cruickshank
Sent: Wednesday, 31 October 2007 2:56 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: SilverLight

Hi Scott,

> There are some patent issues our legal folks are working through to
> ensure that it's all smoothed out and what not, but this is a big step
> for Microsoft in this space and so we are learning as we go via the
> guidance of the Moonlight team (whom are awesome).

Well Microsoft have been doing IT stuff for a while now so it's, er, a
little strange that the patent issues around SilverLight/XAML haven't
been resolved yet.

1) For Linux developers, is the plan to release Microsoft's patents over
MoonLight under a license comparable to that of HTML/CSS?
2) For Linux distributors, is the plan to be compatible with the Debian
patent policy?

And what kind of timelines do you think there might be around solving
these issues (obviously these things can take a while, so when should I
give up hope ;)

Thanks :)


ps. now this is what's awesome http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=KFoTFXxcrrw

.Matthew Cruickshank
http://docvert.org/


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Re: [WSG] Re: SilverLight

[Matthew Cruickshank]

Hi Scott,

There are some patent issues our legal folks are working through to 
ensure that it’s all smoothed out and what not, but this is a big step 
for Microsoft in this space and so we are learning as we go via the 
guidance of the Moonlight team (whom are awesome).


Well Microsoft have been doing IT stuff for a while now so it's, er, a 
little strange that the patent issues around SilverLight/XAML haven't 
been resolved yet.


1) For Linux developers, is the plan to release Microsoft's patents over 
MoonLight under a license comparable to that of HTML/CSS?
2) For Linux distributors, is the plan to be compatible with the Debian 
patent policy?


And what kind of timelines do you think there might be around solving 
these issues (obviously these things can take a while, so when should I 
give up hope ;)


Thanks :)


ps. now this is what's awesome http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=KFoTFXxcrrw

.Matthew Cruickshank
http://docvert.org/


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[WSG] Re: [css-d] Box Issue

[Kit Grose]

The technique you're describing is called "faux-columns", where you  
create the column colour for each of the three columns in a one pixel  
high background image repeating vertically on the container DIV.


As for keeping the footer under the columns; set the footer DIV to  
have the CSS property 'clear: both' which means pull the item  
underneath any other floated items.


Hope that helps!

Kit Grose
Frontend Engineer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: [WSG] PHI and YUI Grids

[Maarten Stolte]

Hi,

> We've been using the YUI for a while. We wrote our own variant to
> support the proportions that our Art Director likes to use, which
> include the Golden Mean.

Can you show any examples of sites using it? I'm wanting to show our
front end designer some examples.

thanks,

Maarten


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