Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
bill..this is lovely..thank you..so poetical ..merle Merle and Joe, Awakening can be like a a soft Spring rain or like a flash of lightening. Here is how the difference between awakening using Soto teaching techniques (focuses on shikantaza) and Rinzai teaching techniques (focuses on koans): Awakening using Soto's shikantaza is like strolling around in a light mist and then at the end of the day suddenly realizing you're soaking wet. Awakening using Rinzai's koan study is like being unexpectedly pushed into a swimming pool. You are suddenly soaking wet but when you surface you just float there sputtering not really knowing what just happened to you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  joe..so awakening is not a spring storm from what i gather here.. .how can you make that clear assumption?.. can not it be a spring storm?... you have made clarification here  however i am yet to be convinced... merle  No, Merle. Awakening dawns in a lightning flash. There is no time taken. Experience this, and be happy. It may last for days, or months. It depends on one's preparations (overall practice). It is not a one-shot deal: awakenings are possible continuously. Awakenings are mostly a physical state: if anyone tells you that awakening has anything to do with thinking, or takes time to dawn, then they have never been so blessed, themselves. Awakening is a grace, but it takes all one's efforts to make oneself *susceptible* to the lightning striking. It strikes gently. And changes everything. But you cannot measure the length of time it takes to dawn. It is, well, Sudden. And called-so, for millennia, for good reason. Else, it's all fantasy, projection, and a posturing parroting of reading. This is serious. This is a matter of Life and Death. It concerns the body. In fact, it's the ONLY significant matter of life and death, independent of health, or length of years lived. Awaken once, awaken several times, or never awaken. We have THIS life in which to practice. We know nothing about other lives... . Again, this is ...SERIOUS. It's called, The Great Matter. No, not the Grey Matter. Nope! Ancients said: Awaken in the Morning, and happily die in the Evening! Mayor Ed Koch of New York City said, in 1972, Heroin: it's so good, don't even try it ONCE. (and then it was plastered all over the Subway in Public-Service-Announcement signs). Storms take time to manifest. Awakening does not. Zen is the Sudden school. Even in Soto Zen, awakening is sudden. Progress in Zazen and overall practice is steady (or not...), but awakening is Sudden, and something that the Teacher will recognize, at about the same time that you do. There's no hiding it. And, there's no faking it. ...no matter which of the three surviving Zen schools you practice in, or in any hybrid of them. Quiet, gentle Lightning; not storms, Merle. One flash will do you. And it may last a while. Depending on you. And on causes and conditions. And that is the *START* of Zen practice. Then you may begin. --Joe / in Lightning-Country, Sonoran Desert, USA / Summer 2013 merlewiitpom@ wrote:  joe...yes indeed... the music comes from the heart..the zen awakening comes as swiftly as a spring rain storm..merle
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
joe..so awakening is not a spring storm from what i gather here.. .how can you make that clear assumption?.. can not it be a spring storm?... you have made clarification here however i am yet to be convinced... merle No, Merle. Awakening dawns in a lightning flash. There is no time taken. Experience this, and be happy. It may last for days, or months. It depends on one's preparations (overall practice). It is not a one-shot deal: awakenings are possible continuously. Awakenings are mostly a physical state: if anyone tells you that awakening has anything to do with thinking, or takes time to dawn, then they have never been so blessed, themselves. Awakening is a grace, but it takes all one's efforts to make oneself *susceptible* to the lightning striking. It strikes gently. And changes everything. But you cannot measure the length of time it takes to dawn. It is, well, Sudden. And called-so, for millennia, for good reason. Else, it's all fantasy, projection, and a posturing parroting of reading. This is serious. This is a matter of Life and Death. It concerns the body. In fact, it's the ONLY significant matter of life and death, independent of health, or length of years lived. Awaken once, awaken several times, or never awaken. We have THIS life in which to practice. We know nothing about other lives... . Again, this is ...SERIOUS. It's called, The Great Matter. No, not the Grey Matter. Nope! Ancients said: Awaken in the Morning, and happily die in the Evening! Mayor Ed Koch of New York City said, in 1972, Heroin: it's so good, don't even try it ONCE. (and then it was plastered all over the Subway in Public-Service-Announcement signs). Storms take time to manifest. Awakening does not. Zen is the Sudden school. Even in Soto Zen, awakening is sudden. Progress in Zazen and overall practice is steady (or not...), but awakening is Sudden, and something that the Teacher will recognize, at about the same time that you do. There's no hiding it. And, there's no faking it. ...no matter which of the three surviving Zen schools you practice in, or in any hybrid of them. Quiet, gentle Lightning; not storms, Merle. One flash will do you. And it may last a while. Depending on you. And on causes and conditions. And that is the *START* of Zen practice. Then you may begin. --Joe / in Lightning-Country, Sonoran Desert, USA / Summer 2013 merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe...yes indeed... the music comes from the heart..the zen awakening comes as swiftly as a spring rain storm..merle
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
It's a metaphor for life. No escape, not getting places, just an interesting trip. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 11:50 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Merle, I agree with what you've written below BECAUSE you've specified a destination - get back out, or to return to the place from whence I came. If that is indeed my intention then yes, I might need a map; and yes, without one (or even with one) I might indeed get lost. BUT, if I had no intention to get back out or return to where I started. If my only intention was to roam around in the wilderness forever or until I die (whichever comes first) then I wouldn't need a map and couldn't get lost. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..you are splitting hairs..i dare you to go into a wilderness jungle.. and try to find you way back after you have been wandering through it for a couple of hours..and no leaving a secret trail to follow back... ask joe...would he wander into the desert far from base camp without a map?  your just asking for trouble bill and no you are not permitted to take provisions with you  merle  Edgar, You're not lost if you're already home wherever you are. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, You are't lost until you try to get home and can't! Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Bill! wrote: Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  musical notes are the language  used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle  Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
bill ... you are spitting hairs..you can get lost believe you me..destination or no destination..merle Merle, You've missed my point. I'll try again. You can only be lost if you have a destination in mind - a particular place to which you want to go. If you don't have any particular destination in mind then you can't be lost. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill ...ever been in the australian bush...trust me you could get lost..and people have been lost and some not found..you do need a map..merle  Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  musical notes are the language  used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle  Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
yes bill..correct..however most folk carry a map...did captain cook have a map of sorts?... i think he did for some part of the journey then he sailed into the unknown and made the discovery: australia..merle Merle, I agree with what you've written below BECAUSE you've specified a destination - get back out, or to return to the place from whence I came. If that is indeed my intention then yes, I might need a map; and yes, without one (or even with one) I might indeed get lost. BUT, if I had no intention to get back out or return to where I started. If my only intention was to roam around in the wilderness forever or until I die (whichever comes first) then I wouldn't need a map and couldn't get lost. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..you are splitting hairs..i dare you to go into a wilderness jungle.. and try to find you way back after you have been wandering through it for a couple of hours..and no leaving a secret trail to follow back... ask joe...would he wander into the desert far from base camp without a map?  your just asking for trouble bill and no you are not permitted to take provisions with you  merle  Edgar, You're not lost if you're already home wherever you are. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, You are't lost until you try to get home and can't! Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Bill! wrote: Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  musical notes are the language  used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle  Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
and further more being lost that applies to the realisation and awareness... trip as well..merle bill ... you are spitting hairs..you can get lost believe you me..destination or no destination..merle Merle, You've missed my point. I'll try again. You can only be lost if you have a destination in mind - a particular place to which you want to go. If you don't have any particular destination in mind then you can't be lost. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill ...ever been in the australian bush...trust me you could get lost..and people have been lost and some not found..you do need a map..merle  Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  musical notes are the language  used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle  Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, Sure that's true. Just tell it to the freezing man out in the woods in the middle of a blizzard that would like to get warm. The sad fact is that humans ARE NOT AT HOME in most natural environments... Of course our fully enlightened Bill would just die happily of freezing to death Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:58 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, You're not lost if you're already home wherever you are. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, You are't lost until you try to get home and can't! Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Bill! wrote: Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  musical notes are the language  used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle  Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
bill cause it's getting dark one is hungry...and fear is taking over what was a nice day out in the jungle/ bush... merle Merle, Okay. If you have no specific destination how can you tell that you are lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill ... you are spitting hairs..you can get lost believe you me..destination or no destination..merle  Merle, You've missed my point. I'll try again. You can only be lost if you have a destination in mind - a particular place to which you want to go. If you don't have any particular destination in mind then you can't be lost. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill ...ever been in the australian bush...trust me you could get lost..and people have been lost and some not found..you do need a map..merle  Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  musical notes are the language  used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle  Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Merle and Bill, No, a fully enlightened being like Bill would let himself get eaten by a tiger with no problem at all. After all he claims the tiger eating him is just another of his constant mental delusions... And God forbid he'd dare to have any purpose of trying to escape the tiger. That would let his ego ruin his Zen mind! :-) Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:55 AM, Bill! wrote: Merle, I agree! But if it's getting dark and that makes you uncomfortable, and you're hungry, and your getting scared of (what?) the dark and the jungle sounds - then you probably have suddenly adopted a destination - out of here. Now that you have a destination or goal then yes, you might consider yourself lost, and you might wish you had a map. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   bill cause it's getting dark one is hungry...and fear is taking over what was a nice day out in the jungle/ bush... merle  Merle, Okay. If you have no specific destination how can you tell that you are lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill ... you are spitting hairs..you can get lost believe you me..destination or no destination..merle  Merle, You've missed my point. I'll try again. You can only be lost if you have a destination in mind - a particular place to which you want to go. If you don't have any particular destination in mind then you can't be lost. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill ...ever been in the australian bush...trust me you could get lost..and people have been lost and some not found..you do need a map..merle  Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ musical notes are the language ÃÆ'‚ used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle ÃÆ'‚ Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
bill.. fear of the tiger.. fear of the unknown and that fear is an ancient fear belonging to all living creatures fear of being preyed upon merle Merle, I agree! But if it's getting dark and that makes you uncomfortable, and you're hungry, and your getting scared of (what?) the dark and the jungle sounds - then you probably have suddenly adopted a destination - out of here. Now that you have a destination or goal then yes, you might consider yourself lost, and you might wish you had a map. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   bill cause it's getting dark one is hungry...and fear is taking over what was a nice day out in the jungle/ bush... merle  Merle, Okay. If you have no specific destination how can you tell that you are lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill ... you are spitting hairs..you can get lost believe you me..destination or no destination..merle  Merle, You've missed my point. I'll try again. You can only be lost if you have a destination in mind - a particular place to which you want to go. If you don't have any particular destination in mind then you can't be lost. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill ...ever been in the australian bush...trust me you could get lost..and people have been lost and some not found..you do need a map..merle  Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ musical notes are the language ÃÆ'‚ used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle ÃÆ'‚ Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill!,br/br/It's just two sides of the same coin. Zen just gets you to awaken with very little explanation and instruction - The sutras explain the processes of the mind that create a self and suffering and the steps necessary to awaken and be liberated. Both work. Zen is a steep cliff-face that can get you to the top quickly, but you'll see few at the top. 'Buddhism' is a less steep and longer winding route that takes longer to reach the summit, but is more accessible and will see more people reach the top.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill!,br/br/What happened in your past? A Buddhist monk steal your girlfriend from you or something?? You're so way off understanding what Buddhism is. Can you honestly say you've studied Buddhism or are you just going by what you see lay followers in Thailand do? Do you really think John in accounts, who does a Zen sit once a week and has passed Mu, is more awake than the Dalai Lama or the monks who practice in the forests of Thailand or the mountains in Tibet?br/br/Mike br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill!,br/br/Let's not forget the Composer heard the music before the notes were laid down.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill!,br/br/Thing is tho, I see people following Zen who seem to get stuck along the way far more than in traditional Buddhism. If Zen is so simple and direct - why aren't practitioners instantly 'transported' to the top of the mountain? Your criticism of Buddhist practitioners would seem to apply to Zen ones, too. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill!,br/br/Gotta go boxing. I'll carry on when I get back.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
musical notes are the language used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill and Merle, Actually if you Bill understood the true nature of music you'd see my point proved. Music is a total illusion created by mind because music is entirely the relationship between notes. However your experience occurs only in the exact present moment which has a vanishingly small duration so there is no actual comparison between notes in raw experience. Comparison between notes happens only in mind's internal model of reality, not in direct experience itself. Therefore music is illusion and if you accept the existence of music as real you are accepting that illusion is part of reality as I continually tell you. Aw well, I don't expect anyone here to get this. It's too intellectual. Doesn't matter whether it reveals the truth of reality or not so that it can then be directly experienced! Sigh... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 3:35 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!,br/br/Let's not forget the Composer heard the music before the notes were laid down.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill and Mike, There IS no mountain that needs to be climbed! Reality is in every grass shoot at the bottom of the mountain and everywhere else. Just open your eyes and look around wherever you are and you've got Zen! Climbing the mountain is comic book Zen... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 3:47 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I again like your analogy. The only thing is I don't see many people at the 'top' who follow the long and winding Buddhist path. IMO they get hung-up along the way, stopping here and there at roadside rest areas, getting comfortable and thinking they are at the summit. I'd also equate zen not so much as a steep cliff-face that you have to climb with a great effort, but a Star Trek-like transporter. One second you're at the bottom of the mountain and the next you're on top. The paragraph above was to follow your analogy. I really see zen as just 'blowing away of a fog' that allows you to enjoy the vista from where you are, and realize that where you are is just as good, and even no different than the top or anywhere else on the mountain. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/It's just two sides of the same coin. Zen just gets you to awaken with very little explanation and instruction - The sutras explain the processes of the mind that create a self and suffering and the steps necessary to awaken and be liberated. Both work. Zen is a steep cliff-face that can get you to the top quickly, but you'll see few at the top. 'Buddhism' is a less steep and longer winding route that takes longer to reach the summit, but is more accessible and will see more people reach the top.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
bill...different horses for different courses..the world is variation on a theme...boring if we were all cut from the same cloth and all followed the same path..merle Mike, I forgot to address one of your other questions... I don't have much respect for the Dalai Lama so don't get me started on him. I also don't have any special respect for people to retreat to mountains or forests, especially for the rest of their lives. That's too easy of a path - or maybe it's one of the rest areas I talked about in an earlier post. I respect more the Bodhisattva depicted in the last station of the 10 Ox-Herding Pictures where he is returning to the village to live with and fully engage with his community. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/What happened in your past? A Buddhist monk steal your girlfriend from you or something?? You're so way off understanding what Buddhism is. Can you honestly say you've studied Buddhism or are you just going by what you see lay followers in Thailand do? Do you really think John in accounts, who does a Zen sit once a week and has passed Mu, is more awake than the Dalai Lama or the monks who practice in the forests of Thailand or the mountains in Tibet?br/br/Mike br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
mike..this is obvious.. though there is free improvisation as in jazz where things just happen spontaneously... very much like zen realisation from the mountain that is no mountain.. merle Bill!, Let's not forget the Composer heard the music before the notes were laid down. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Wed, Jul 3, 2013 7:28:16 AM Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
bill..that's okay sure one can play by ear till kingdom come..that's okay.. me personally would want learn the language of music.. not only sounds but those amazing squiggles that brilliant stuff called the musical notes on music sheets..having seen them as squiggles... i only just recently learnt what they all meant.. it is beautiful to know and what an amazing language as beautiful as knowing the realisation of the oneness of all living things.. merle Merle, Forgive me for jumping in here but I'd like to answer your question. The one would not want to know what all those musical notes meant would be one who plays by ear. Who listens to a melody and then recreates it, perhaps even personalizing it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mike.. how do you know this?...what is your evidence?. i found that a bit far out.. who in the right mind would not want to know what all those musical notes meant?.. merle Bill!, The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation? Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/It's just an analogy. Calm down. Besides, if all it takes is to just look around, then why have you written 300 pages to say that?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
huh?.. music is felt by the emotions..the heart... heard of john cage?...silence is also music... the silence between the notes is also important.. as important as the silence in meditation.. in quietening the mind we deepen our realisation... merle Bill and Merle, Actually if you Bill understood the true nature of music you'd see my point proved. Music is a total illusion created by mind because music is entirely the relationship between notes. However your experience occurs only in the exact present moment which has a vanishingly small duration so there is no actual comparison between notes in raw experience. Comparison between notes happens only in mind's internal model of reality, not in direct experience itself. Therefore music is illusion and if you accept the existence of music as real you are accepting that illusion is part of reality as I continually tell you. Aw well, I don't expect anyone here to get this. It's too intellectual. Doesn't matter whether it reveals the truth of reality or not so that it can then be directly experienced! Sigh... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 3:35 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!,br/br/Let's not forget the Composer heard the music before the notes were laid down.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
all is as it is... mountain and every shoot of grass are as they are.. all play a significant role in realisation.. one is no more important than the other however the mountain has an aspect to it that once one is familiar with shoots of grasses and mountains as teaching tools for zen then the realisation falls into place swiftly merle Bill and Mike, There IS no mountain that needs to be climbed! Reality is in every grass shoot at the bottom of the mountain and everywhere else. Just open your eyes and look around wherever you are and you've got Zen! Climbing the mountain is comic book Zen... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 3:47 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, I again like your analogy. The only thing is I don't see many people at the 'top' who follow the long and winding Buddhist path. IMO they get hung-up along the way, stopping here and there at roadside rest areas, getting comfortable and thinking they are at the summit. I'd also equate zen not so much as a steep cliff-face that you have to climb with a great effort, but a Star Trek-like transporter. One second you're at the bottom of the mountain and the next you're on top. The paragraph above was to follow your analogy. I really see zen as just 'blowing away of a fog' that allows you to enjoy the vista from where you are, and realize that where you are is just as good, and even no different than the top or anywhere else on the mountain. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/It's just two sides of the same coin. Zen just gets you to awaken with very little explanation and instruction - The sutras explain the processes of the mind that create a self and suffering and the steps necessary to awaken and be liberated. Both work. Zen is a steep cliff-face that can get you to the top quickly, but you'll see few at the top. 'Buddhism' is a less steep and longer winding route that takes longer to reach the summit, but is more accessible and will see more people reach the top.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
mike evidence that the beatles could not read music..you said it not i.merle Merle, Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying here? Evidence of what? And do you really think a symphony could be written without musical notation (never mind performed or taught!)? Mike mike.. how do you know this?...what is your evidence?. i found that a bit far out.. who in the right mind would not want to know what all those musical notes meant?.. merle The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation? Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Merle,br/br/They said so themselves.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Well said, Mike. Applaud.. jm On 7/3/2013 12:04 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!, It's just two sides of the same coin. Zen just gets you to awaken with very little explanation and instruction - The sutras explain the processes of the mind that create a self and suffering and the steps necessary to awaken and be liberated. Both work. Zen is a steep cliff-face that can get you to the top quickly, but you'll see few at the top. 'Buddhism' is a less steep and longer winding route that takes longer to reach the summit, but is more accessible and will see more people reach the top. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad *From: * Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; *To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: * [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage *Sent: * Wed, Jul 3, 2013 6:50:20 AM Joe, I do feel that Buddhism proper causes humans to suffer. I feel that it gives them a false sense (an intellectually-based belief) that they know what awakening is and how to conduct themselves in accordance with someone else's teachings who they believe was awakened. In truth it probably makes them feel better, but it keeps them from going further - to awaken themselves. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, quoting: I think Buddhism itself needs to be discarded completely. Face it: it cannot be. It is a living thing. Living things evolve. I see no asteroid coming to smack it. Zen practice is a personal choice for a person who can cut to the chase, ...or who can embrace nothing else. Other practice is available for folks with a different bent. I think, again, that your view of need is a personal one. If it's a more extensive view, then I say, get on with accomplishing it. Remember the objection against considering to end the war in Vietnam?: What are you going to replace it with? But I think you have personally already discarded Buddhism; you call your practice Zen, not Zen Buddhism. It would seem already that Buddhism should not annoy you. Where else do you mean you would like to see it discarded? And, for what PRACTICAL purpose? Is it like a swarm of mosquitoes that annoys you? Or do you, as a Bodhisattva, feel that it is causing sentient beings to suffer? coffee time, best!, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: I think Buddhism itself needs to be discarded completely. Zen, on the other hand, as it's presented in a lot of zen literature is presented very simply and very effectively. There is some zen literature that is complex also, but most of that is either trying to resolve zen with Buddhism or explain in an almost technical style the experience of Buddha Nature. Anyway, I'm just more supportive of the KISS school - and the simpler the better.
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
The main thing I wanted to say was I think KISS, in the world of pluralism, is a good idea. My truncated thought is that I prefer writing about non duality to be fresh, spoken as if the writer has seen nondually and is using concepts and words familiar to his or her own actual life instead of just repeating what has been written down. I find Brad Warner, Karen Maezen Miller, Pema Chodron, the Platform Sutra, and parts of Dogen to have this vitality and freshness. Some modern Buddhist writing seems to yearn for resting in non-duality but to end up having a lot of complex ideas from the past touching all the words. Reading good intentioned words can be like a bad Sunday school, whereas the fresh writing leads to laughter and tears and the pleasure of this funny life, a bit like a picnic that, despite it all, the bugs or whatever, leaves one full and content, enjoying the clean air. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 Well said, Mike. Applaud.. jm On 7/3/2013 12:04 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!, It's just two sides of the same coin. Zen just gets you to awaken with very little explanation and instruction - The sutras explain the processes of the mind that create a self and suffering and the steps necessary to awaken and be liberated. Both work. Zen is a steep cliff-face that can get you to the top quickly, but you'll see few at the top. 'Buddhism' is a less steep and longer winding route that takes longer to reach the summit, but is more accessible and will see more people reach the top. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -- * From: * Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org billsm...@hhs1963.org; * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; * Subject: * [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage * Sent: * Wed, Jul 3, 2013 6:50:20 AM Joe, I do feel that Buddhism proper causes humans to suffer. I feel that it gives them a false sense (an intellectually-based belief) that they know what awakening is and how to conduct themselves in accordance with someone else's teachings who they believe was awakened. In truth it probably makes them feel better, but it keeps them from going further - to awaken themselves. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@...desert_woodworker@...wrote: Bill!, quoting: I think Buddhism itself needs to be discarded completely. Face it: it cannot be. It is a living thing. Living things evolve. I see no asteroid coming to smack it. Zen practice is a personal choice for a person who can cut to the chase, ...or who can embrace nothing else. Other practice is available for folks with a different bent. I think, again, that your view of need is a personal one. If it's a more extensive view, then I say, get on with accomplishing it. Remember the objection against considering to end the war in Vietnam?: What are you going to replace it with? But I think you have personally already discarded Buddhism; you call your practice Zen, not Zen Buddhism. It would seem already that Buddhism should not annoy you. Where else do you mean you would like to see it discarded? And, for what PRACTICAL purpose? Is it like a swarm of mosquitoes that annoys you? Or do you, as a Bodhisattva, feel that it is causing sentient beings to suffer? coffee time, best!, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: I think Buddhism itself needs to be discarded completely. Zen, on the other hand, as it's presented in a lot of zen literature is presented very simply and very effectively. There is some zen literature that is complex also, but most of that is either trying to resolve zen with Buddhism or explain in an almost technical style the experience of Buddha Nature. Anyway, I'm just more supportive of the KISS school - and the simpler the better.
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, You are't lost until you try to get home and can't! Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Bill! wrote: Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  musical notes are the language  used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle  Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
bill ...ever been in the australian bush...trust me you could get lost..and people have been lost and some not found..you do need a map..merle Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  musical notes are the language  used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle  Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
joe...yes indeed... the music comes from the heart..the zen awakening comes as swiftly as a spring rain storm..merle Merle, For some, the map or path is recorded-music via audio, not writing. Audio records (LPs, 45's, CDs, etc.) are good records of music. The Beatles relied on hundreds of records of American Rhythm and Blues, as did the Rolling Stones. Even without reading a single note of musical notation, they have got the gist. I think they learned, eventually, to read and write music. But their start was in LISTENING. Recorded music can be either by writing, or by audio. You focus only on writing in your post(s). That's not how the Beatles operated. In the Zen tradition, the claim about being not based on writings is NOT that writings are not used in study and training; but instead that the awakening in Zen is not transmitted by writings: it dawns independently, separately, of the scriptures. That is unique. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: Â musical notes are the language used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
bill..you are splitting hairs..i dare you to go into a wilderness jungle.. and try to find you way back after you have been wandering through it for a couple of hours..and no leaving a secret trail to follow back... ask joe...would he wander into the desert far from base camp without a map? your just asking for trouble bill and no you are not permitted to take provisions with you merle Edgar, You're not lost if you're already home wherever you are. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, You are't lost until you try to get home and can't! Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Bill! wrote: Merle, One only needs a map or considers themselves 'lost' if they have a specific destination in mind. If you are just wandering around enjoying the woods with no destination in mind you don't need a map, and how could you be lost? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  musical notes are the language  used to communicate to others the music score or plan or map... it is like a map...without a map or a path one would be lost in the woods...merle  Mike, That's a pretty good analogy. Music notation is a way to intellectually communicate a musical score. I guess that would be much like the sutras. Listening would be the sensual way to communicate music. That would be more like zen. IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote: br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, LOL! Bill is the asteroid bent on destroying Buddhism! :-) Edgar On Jul 2, 2013, at 12:37 PM, Joe wrote: Bill!, quoting: I think Buddhism itself needs to be discarded completely. Face it: it cannot be. It is a living thing. Living things evolve. I see no asteroid coming to smack it. Zen practice is a personal choice for a person who can cut to the chase, ...or who can embrace nothing else. Other practice is available for folks with a different bent. I think, again, that your view of need is a personal one. If it's a more extensive view, then I say, get on with accomplishing it. Remember the objection against considering to end the war in Vietnam?: What are you going to replace it with? But I think you have personally already discarded Buddhism; you call your practice Zen, not Zen Buddhism. It would seem already that Buddhism should not annoy you. Where else do you mean you would like to see it discarded? And, for what PRACTICAL purpose? Is it like a swarm of mosquitoes that annoys you? Or do you, as a Bodhisattva, feel that it is causing sentient beings to suffer? coffee time, best!, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: I think Buddhism itself needs to be discarded completely. Zen, on the other hand, as it's presented in a lot of zen literature is presented very simply and very effectively. There is some zen literature that is complex also, but most of that is either trying to resolve zen with Buddhism or explain in an almost technical style the experience of Buddha Nature. Anyway, I'm just more supportive of the KISS school - and the simpler the better.
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
br/Bill!,br/br/The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation?br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
mike.. how do you know this?...what is your evidence?. i found that a bit far out.. who in the right mind would not want to know what all those musical notes meant?.. merle Bill!, The Beatles were arguably the best band in the world and none of them could read music. Perhaps, therefore, we should discard with formal music notation? Mike
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
I like that - KISS is our task now. I find the most Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 2, 2013 2:49 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Joe, I think Buddhism itself needs to be discarded completely. Zen, on the other hand, as it's presented in a lot of zen literature is presented very simply and very effectively. There is some zen literature that is complex also, but most of that is either trying to resolve zen with Buddhism or explain in an almost technical style the experience of Buddha Nature. Anyway, I'm just more supportive of the KISS school - and the simpler the better. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Bill!, Every generation has a responsibility to the present and the future. I suspect you personally are doing the updating that you can. Onward! It's said that Buddhism passes from one warm hand to another. It's not that this needs updating; it's always changing, anyway. Joe Campbell opined that the 'Star Wars' story could be a new mythology. I hoped not. To me, it seemed the same-old same-old. I think to him it did, too, and was just a re-telling. Nothing was updated, really. Now, do you want to see the teaching stories of Buddhism updated and re-tooled or re-clothed for yourself, or for others? If for others, do you sense that others are dissatisfied with the stories and other vehicles as they receive them, and have you heard them complain that the old outlines don't suit? And, has that been at Buddhist practice centers, Bill!, or solely on the internet, where it's not clear if people are engaged in practice? --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Joe, Most religions are wisdom traditions. Their core beliefs may indeed be just as pertinent today as they were 2500 years ago. It's not their core beliefs I'm uncomfortable with, it's their method of communicating their core beliefs - their myths, parables and symbols. It's these I'd like to see updated. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@ wrote: Mike, I agree, sir. Religions are Wisdom-Traditions. Wisdom Traditions use the tools they have available. Then, and now. That, too, is what makes them Wise. They utilize fully what they have available, in service of True Compassion. For their times, and future times. Religions are not nonsense, as some hasty-pudding kitchen-workers say. Maybe they're just hopped-up on instant (soluble) Coffee. The wisdom-traditions purvey and convey wisdom, and preserve wisdom, and the path to it. As traditions, they also keep on changing, as generations pass, and come. That's another part of what makes them Wise. Hasty people live for the next thing, not for Now. And don't see where Now has *graciously* come from. But, they are to be forgiven! That's why Wisdom and Compassion are preserved, and transmitted. For them, and fo all. Anyway, a new generation is born TODAY. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Merle,br/br/Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying here? Evidence of what? And do you really think a symphony could be written without musical notation (never mind performed or taught!)?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill!, Edgar,br/br/It's funny to hear you to argue that you think you both have a better way to the truth than the Buddhadharma. Goes to show what a formidable little critter the ego is. And to think you two both argue about its delusional nature! Lmfao! : )br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, I use a PC laptop also. And I prefer Bing to Google... Edgar On Jun 30, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Bill! wrote: I, on the other hand, am a dedicated Intel-PC, Microsoft OS and apps user - and I Bing...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, I use a Power Mac, so I must be on the right Path! :-) Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 11:49 PM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, No worries. Btw, Buddha would've been an Apple user. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Sun, Jun 30, 2013 12:40:13 AM Mike, Yes, you are right. I mistook Buddha Dharma for Buddha Nature which is another name for my ontological energy. As to the volume of work produced my book currently being finished up is over 300 pages which is a lot more than Buddha ever wrote though he might have written more if he had Microsoft Word! :-) Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 8:19 PM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar, They're not the same thing with a different name. 'Buddha Dharma' refers to the whole body of work developed and taught by the Buddha including the sutras and methods of meditation etc. I've yet to see anything resembling this from you (seeing illusion as reality doesn't really comprise a whole body of work). Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Sat, Jun 29, 2013 4:45:01 PM Mike, It's two names for the same thing, though understood differently by many of course... It's not the names that matter since the thing itself is nameless. It's the thing itself that matters... I wouldn't get hung up in the names for it Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 10:57 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar,br/br/The Buddhadharma in its present form has been around for 2,500 years and still applicable today. I wonder how long your ontological energy theory (or whatever it is) will be around?...br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, I agree with this in general.. Edgar On Jun 30, 2013, at 10:45 PM, Bill! wrote: Joe, Most religions are wisdom traditions. Their core beliefs may indeed be just as pertinent today as they were 2500 years ago. It's not their core beliefs I'm uncomfortable with, it's their method of communicating their core beliefs - their myths, parables and symbols. It's these I'd like to see updated. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Mike, I agree, sir. Religions are Wisdom-Traditions. Wisdom Traditions use the tools they have available. Then, and now. That, too, is what makes them Wise. They utilize fully what they have available, in service of True Compassion. For their times, and future times. Religions are not nonsense, as some hasty-pudding kitchen-workers say. Maybe they're just hopped-up on instant (soluble) Coffee. The wisdom-traditions purvey and convey wisdom, and preserve wisdom, and the path to it. As traditions, they also keep on changing, as generations pass, and come. That's another part of what makes them Wise. Hasty people live for the next thing, not for Now. And don't see where Now has *graciously* come from. But, they are to be forgiven! That's why Wisdom and Compassion are preserved, and transmitted. For them, and fo all. Anyway, a new generation is born TODAY. --Joe uerusuboyo@ wrote: Bill!, I can tell by the completely misrepresented view of things like The Noble Eightfold Path on this forum that people criticise even though it's obvious they haven't even bothered to study them. They're absolutely beautiful and sublime teachings. Even though they're over 2,500 years old they still can be applied to life today. To criticise them also shows a complete ignorance of upaya (skilful means) to teach the Dharma. Different people, with different personalities and temperaments will always require a variety of different teaching methods. Otherwise we get into the bigotry of believing that only my way is the correct way.
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, Your saying that No one but a practitioner in a tradition can say that the tradition no longer has the best truth. is nonsense. All kinds of nutcase cult followers would claim their tradition is the best and only truth and that all the other ones didn't. There are objective standards of truth... Edgar On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Wisdom is carried, through the work of the traditions. They are vessels, vehicles, and delivery-systems of methods, techniques. It's the teaching ways of the traditions that changes, nimbly, to suit the time and place. I think little basis changes. That is my view! No one but a practitioner in a tradition can say that the tradition no longer has the best truth. That's apples and oranges. Just because video games have been invented and have become popular with a certain set, that does not mean that Baseball is to be criticized, deprecated, or rejected. Both are systems of having fun, probably. One is also good physical exercise, social, and sportsman-ly. When I speak about practice in the Wisdom traditions, I mean specifically in the mystical wings or branches of the traditions. It's these I give my attention to, and my view is that it is through the mystical wings or branches of practice that Wisdom is contained, carried, and stimulated to be discovered, in PRACTITIONERS. I view Zen Buddhism as a particularly purified (in the sense of distilled and concentrated to a nearly neutral elixir, almost generically applicable by Humans of any culture) system of practice. Sufism is close to this, I feel. And certain streams of Christian Contemplative practice. I know too little about Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and Hinduism, and have not myself practiced in their mystical wings. By the way, Elders and Teachers in the Wisdom traditions receive new knowledge, just as you and I do. And those folks roll with the times, too, and can incorporate the new knowledge into skilful means with which to continue to help students. My old Tai Chi teacher Da Liu was still doing this late into his 90's: he'd recite some articles in The Science Times section of THE NEW YORK TIMES to us during rest breaks between repetitions of the Tai Chi form, and always tied-in Taoist views with the new revelations of Medical science, etc., in the newspaper I'd say that the New invigorated the Old, and cast it in a local and contemporary light; and, I'd say the Old is never old when it's alive in a sincere practitioner. Wisdom does not go out of date, if it is Wisdom. Thanks!, for a good question. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: First you say that ancient traditions as they were are to be respected. Then you say they are constantly changing implying they are different now. These are two clearly contradictory views. So which is it in your view? Actually I have a different take on it but which is largely in agreement. Ancient traditions are to be respected because they were the best truth of their times. However they are not to be slavishly adulated as if they still are the ultimate truth. This is because much has been learned in the couple thousand or so years since they were first formulated so they must be brought up to date and rethought in light of that new knowledge. Edgar On Jun 30, 2013, at 5:41 PM, Joe wrote: Mike, I agree, sir. Religions are Wisdom-Traditions. Wisdom Traditions use the tools they have available. Then, and now. That, too, is what makes them Wise. They utilize fully what they have available, in service of True Compassion. For their times, and future times. Religions are not nonsense, as some hasty-pudding kitchen-workers say. Maybe they're just hopped-up on instant (soluble) Coffee. The wisdom-traditions purvey and convey wisdom, and preserve wisdom, and the path to it. As traditions, they also keep on changing, as generations pass, and come. That's another part of what makes them Wise. Hasty people live for the next thing, not for Now. And don't see where Now has *graciously* come from. But, they are to be forgiven! That's why Wisdom and Compassion are preserved, and transmitted. For them, and fo all. Anyway, a new generation is born TODAY. --Joe
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill!,br/br/1) Actually, the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) is divided into 3 categories: br/br/Ethical Conduct: (right speech; right livelihood)br/Mental Development: (right effort; right mindfulness; right concentration)br/Wisdom: (right intention; right view)br/br/2) On What is Rightbr/br/Right isn't necessarily being judgemental. It's more like the 'right' in 'seeing things correctly/as they are.br/br/This is what Buddha said on it:br/br/It is fitting for you to be perplexed, O Kalamas, it is fitting for you to be in doubt. Doubt has arisen in you about a perplexing matter. Come, Kalamas. Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a collection of scriptures, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by a reflection on reasons, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: 'The ascetic is our teacher.' But when you know for yourselves, 'These things are unwholesome, these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; these things if undertaken and practiced lead to harm and suffering', then you should abandon them. (Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, p. 65)br/br/In other words, you will to what is 'right' by the consequences of your actions. br/br/3) I agree with you that if you awaken then the NEP is redundant. But Buddha taught us the truth off 'upaya' (skilful means). I would suggest that for most people the NEP is far more efficacious towards awakening than just saying just THIS! or Wash your bowls as it comprehensively covers all that is needed to develop an ethical life (something absolutely necessary to stop mental dissonance affecting meditation), how to practice mindfulness to develop the mental concentration required to investigate the Three Characteristics (impermanence, non-self, dukkha), and how both lead to insight wisdom that is beyond intellectual understanding. br/br/I see no conflict whatsoever in following the Dharma and practicing Zen. In fact, the Patriarchs studied the sutras far more than is commonly recognised in Zen. It's the truth behind the words that is important and not the words themselves.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, I use a Power Mac, so I must be on the right Path! :-) Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 11:49 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, No worries. Btw, Buddha would've been an Apple user. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Sun, Jun 30, 2013 12:40:13 AM Mike, Yes, you are right. I mistook Buddha Dharma for Buddha Nature which is another name for my ontological energy. As to the volume of work produced my book currently being finished up is over 300 pages which is a lot more than Buddha ever wrote though he might have written more if he had Microsoft Word! :-) Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 8:19 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, They're not the same thing with a different name. 'Buddha Dharma' refers to the whole body of work developed and taught by the Buddha including the sutras and methods of meditation etc. I've yet to see anything resembling this from you (seeing illusion as reality doesn't really comprise a whole body of work). Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Sat, Jun 29, 2013 4:45:01 PM Mike, It's two names for the same thing, though understood differently by many of course... It's not the names that matter since the thing itself is nameless. It's the thing itself that matters... I wouldn't get hung up in the names for it Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 10:57 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar,br/br/The Buddhadharma in its present form has been around for 2,500 years and still applicable today. I wonder how long your ontological energy theory (or whatever it is) will be around?...br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, Agreed with one addition. Right action does help decrease suffering which in turn makes it easier to attain realization. Of course with realization one naturally follows the 8 fold path which as you point out is somewhat arbitrary... Edgar On Jun 30, 2013, at 6:00 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, The Noble Eightfold Path is a good guideline. So are the Ten Commandments. I have three problems with the Noble Eightfold Path: 1. There are 8 categories. Why are all the activities that are possible in life divided into 8 categories? Do the authors of this really think those 8 categories cover the whole of life? And if not why did they pick these 8? 2. All of them encourage you to do 'right'. How do you know what's right? The Eightfold Path doesn't tell you that. 3. Following this path is supposed to lead to the ...cessation of suffering (dukkha) and the achievement of self-awakening. - Wikipedia.com. I think this is all reversed. First you must awaken. Second, that awakening enables the recognition of delusion, then the dropping of attachments to delusions, and only then to the cessation of suffering. After all that's complete and only then are you able to really follow the Noble Eightfold Path, but by then you aren't really following anything, you are walking the path and the path is you, your life. You're never going to cease suffering and awaken just by following some set of rules like The Noble Eightfold Path. That's my opinion anyway...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I can tell by the completely misrepresented view of things like The Noble Eightfold Path on this forum that people criticise even though it's obvious they haven't even bothered to study them. They're absolutely beautiful and sublime teachings. Even though they're over 2,500 years old they still can be applied to life today. To criticise them also shows a complete ignorance of upaya (skilful means) to teach the Dharma. Different people, with different personalities and temperaments will always require a variety of different teaching methods. Otherwise we get into the bigotry of believing that only my way is the correct way.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
NEP? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 30, 2013 8:01 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, Agreed with one addition. Right action does help decrease suffering which in turn makes it easier to attain realization. Of course with realization one naturally follows the 8 fold path which as you point out is somewhat arbitrary... Edgar On Jun 30, 2013, at 6:00 AM, Bill! wrote: Mike, The Noble Eightfold Path is a good guideline. So are the Ten Commandments. I have three problems with the Noble Eightfold Path: 1. There are 8 categories. Why are all the activities that are possible in life divided into 8 categories? Do the authors of this really think those 8 categories cover the whole of life? And if not why did they pick these 8? 2. All of them encourage you to do 'right'. How do you know what's right? The Eightfold Path doesn't tell you that. 3. Following this path is supposed to lead to the ...cessation of suffering (dukkha) and the achievement of self-awakening. - Wikipedia.com. I think this is all reversed. First you must awaken. Second, that awakening enables the recognition of delusion, then the dropping of attachments to delusions, and only then to the cessation of suffering. After all that's complete and only then are you able to really follow the Noble Eightfold Path, but by then you aren't really following anything, you are walking the path and the path is you, your life. You're never going to cease suffering and awaken just by following some set of rules like The Noble Eightfold Path. That's my opinion anyway...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/I can tell by the completely misrepresented view of things like The Noble Eightfold Path on this forum that people criticise even though it's obvious they haven't even bothered to study them. They're absolutely beautiful and sublime teachings. Even though they're over 2,500 years old they still can be applied to life today. To criticise them also shows a complete ignorance of upaya (skilful means) to teach the Dharma. Different people, with different personalities and temperaments will always require a variety of different teaching methods. Otherwise we get into the bigotry of believing that only my way is the correct way.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill!,br/br/The only thing I would say in response is that the Buddha Dharma is far more that just a tool to motivate, but is actually a path that can take you to the other shore ( I know, I know! There is no other shore ; )br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/Well, that's at least one then! : )br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/Not sure what you mean by right action. Yes, if you come at it from an already awakened position then you would just be following the Noble Eightfold Path. But if this is so, then following the path will also lead to awakening. I would also say that there is nothing arbitrary about the 8 factors. Its kind of like a feedback loop, so take any one out and it wouldn't work. I'm also not sure what it could be lacking that you would want to add.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Hi Mike, I liked everything you posted about the basic Buddha Dharma. We define the other shore to mean everywhere beyond our comfort zone, beyond what we hold dearly, beyond what we recognize, beyond what understand, beyond what we're familiar with, beyond our physical read.. So that we become whole, complete and integrated, without separation, physically, mentally and spiritually. JM On 6/30/2013 6:58 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Bill!, The only thing I would say in response is that the Buddha Dharma is far more that just a tool to motivate, but is actually a path that can take you to the other shore ( I know, I know! There is no other shore ; ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad *From: * Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; *To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: * [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage *Sent: * Sun, Jun 30, 2013 11:22:35 AM Mike, Thanks for your explanation and references. I agree that the Zen Patriarchs were well-schooled in the sutras. Whether that knowledge helped them awaken I do not know. Personally I think things like these help you become interested in awakening and perhaps even give you strength and incentive in your quest to awaken. I'm not as sure however actually how pivotal they were to awakening. In any event and as I said earlier they are a good set of guidelines. I am not trying to discourage anyone from following them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!,br/br/1) Actually, the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) is divided into 3 categories: br/br/Ethical Conduct: (right speech; right livelihood)br/Mental Development: (right effort; right mindfulness; right concentration)br/Wisdom: (right intention; right view)br/br/2) On What is Rightbr/br/Right isn't necessarily being judgemental. It's more like the 'right' in 'seeing things correctly/as they are.br/br/This is what Buddha said on it:br/br/It is fitting for you to be perplexed, O Kalamas, it is fitting for you to be in doubt. Doubt has arisen in you about a perplexing matter. Come, Kalamas. Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a collection of scriptures, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by a reflection on reasons, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: 'The ascetic is our teacher.' But when you know for yourselves, 'These things are unwholesome, these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; these things if undertaken and practiced lead to harm and suffering', then you should abandon them. (Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, p. 65)br/br/In other words, you will to what is 'right' by the consequences of your actions. br/br/3) I agree with you that if you awaken then the NEP is redundant. But Buddha taught us the truth off 'upaya' (skilful means). I would suggest that for most people the NEP is far more efficacious towards awakening than just saying just THIS! or Wash your bowls as it comprehensively covers all that is needed to develop an ethical life (something absolutely necessary to stop mental dissonance affecting meditation), how to practice mindfulness to develop the mental concentration required to investigate the Three Characteristics (impermanence, non-self, dukkha), and how both lead to insight wisdom that is beyond intellectual understanding. br/br/I see no conflict whatsoever in following the Dharma and practicing Zen. In fact, the Patriarchs studied the sutras far more than is commonly recognised in Zen. It's the truth behind the words that is important and not the words themselves.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, First you say that ancient traditions as they were are to be respected. Then you say they are constantly changing implying they are different now. These are two clearly contradictory views. So which is it in your view? Actually I have a different take on it but which is largely in agreement. Ancient traditions are to be respected because they were the best truth of their times. However they are not to be slavishly adulated as if they still are the ultimate truth. This is because much has been learned in the couple thousand or so years since they were first formulated so they must be brought up to date and rethought in light of that new knowledge. Edgar On Jun 30, 2013, at 5:41 PM, Joe wrote: Mike, I agree, sir. Religions are Wisdom-Traditions. Wisdom Traditions use the tools they have available. Then, and now. That, too, is what makes them Wise. They utilize fully what they have available, in service of True Compassion. For their times, and future times. Religions are not nonsense, as some hasty-pudding kitchen-workers say. Maybe they're just hopped-up on instant (soluble) Coffee. The wisdom-traditions purvey and convey wisdom, and preserve wisdom, and the path to it. As traditions, they also keep on changing, as generations pass, and come. That's another part of what makes them Wise. Hasty people live for the next thing, not for Now. And don't see where Now has *graciously* come from. But, they are to be forgiven! That's why Wisdom and Compassion are preserved, and transmitted. For them, and fo all. Anyway, a new generation is born TODAY. --Joe uerusuboyo@... wrote: Bill!, I can tell by the completely misrepresented view of things like The Noble Eightfold Path on this forum that people criticise even though it's obvious they haven't even bothered to study them. They're absolutely beautiful and sublime teachings. Even though they're over 2,500 years old they still can be applied to life today. To criticise them also shows a complete ignorance of upaya (skilful means) to teach the Dharma. Different people, with different personalities and temperaments will always require a variety of different teaching methods. Otherwise we get into the bigotry of believing that only my way is the correct way.
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, I think it's a matter of definition. In general I think excessive concern with 'stages' of realization is a distraction from realization... And that goes for standard Buddhism's obsessive with counting all sorts of things as well. The 7 this, the 5 that, the 8 this etc. etc. Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 2:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As you know I don't like to rely too much on Buddhist or Hindu terms either. 'Samadhi' is a meditative state of non-duality or monism. It's what I also call 'shikantazaza' if you're experiencing it during zazen. It can also be called no-thought. I associate it strongly with Buddha Nature since there is no dualism thus no delusion. I know you include delusions in Buddha Nature, but I'm just explaining my terminology. Anyway, if 'samadhi' is a state of pure non-duality how do you think that equates with 'nirvana'? I'm begining to think the only diffrence is 'samadhi' is temporary where 'nirvana' is permanent. What do you (or anyone else) think? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, I don't use the term and don't really get into all the interminable Buddhist and HIndu levels and counts of everything anyone could think of... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction between samadhi and nirvana? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Edgar, I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: ...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are... and In nirvana all forms cease permanently. I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your ...see them for what they truly are ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Don't forget the eightfold way. I have heard it speculated that numbered lists make it easier in an oral tradition to remember stuff, and that the proliferation of numbered items in ancient spiritual traditions, especial Buddhism, are a normal result of a few hundred years of oral transmission. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 29, 2013 7:26 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, I think it's a matter of definition. In general I think excessive concern with 'stages' of realization is a distraction from realization... And that goes for standard Buddhism's obsessive with counting all sorts of things as well. The 7 this, the 5 that, the 8 this etc. etc. Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 2:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As you know I don't like to rely too much on Buddhist or Hindu terms either. 'Samadhi' is a meditative state of non-duality or monism. It's what I also call 'shikantazaza' if you're experiencing it during zazen. It can also be called no-thought. I associate it strongly with Buddha Nature since there is no dualism thus no delusion. I know you include delusions in Buddha Nature, but I'm just explaining my terminology. Anyway, if 'samadhi' is a state of pure non-duality how do you think that equates with 'nirvana'? I'm begining to think the only diffrence is 'samadhi' is temporary where 'nirvana' is permanent. What do you (or anyone else) think? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, I don't use the term and don't really get into all the interminable Buddhist and HIndu levels and counts of everything anyone could think of... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction between samadhi and nirvana? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Edgar, I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: ...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are... and In nirvana all forms cease permanently. I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your ...see them for what they truly are ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Chris, Yes, that could well be... Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 7:31 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Don't forget the eightfold way. I have heard it speculated that numbered lists make it easier in an oral tradition to remember stuff, and that the proliferation of numbered items in ancient spiritual traditions, especial Buddhism, are a normal result of a few hundred years of oral transmission. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 29, 2013 7:26 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, I think it's a matter of definition. In general I think excessive concern with 'stages' of realization is a distraction from realization... And that goes for standard Buddhism's obsessive with counting all sorts of things as well. The 7 this, the 5 that, the 8 this etc. etc. Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 2:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As you know I don't like to rely too much on Buddhist or Hindu terms either. 'Samadhi' is a meditative state of non-duality or monism. It's what I also call 'shikantazaza' if you're experiencing it during zazen. It can also be called no-thought. I associate it strongly with Buddha Nature since there is no dualism thus no delusion. I know you include delusions in Buddha Nature, but I'm just explaining my terminology. Anyway, if 'samadhi' is a state of pure non-duality how do you think that equates with 'nirvana'? I'm begining to think the only diffrence is 'samadhi' is temporary where 'nirvana' is permanent. What do you (or anyone else) think? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, I don't use the term and don't really get into all the interminable Buddhist and HIndu levels and counts of everything anyone could think of... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction between samadhi and nirvana? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Edgar, I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: ...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are... and In nirvana all forms cease permanently. I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your ...see them for what they truly are ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, Yes, I suspect it was just all those monks got so terribly bored with the monastic life doing the same boring routine all day every day for their whole lives they desperately needed something to occupy their minds. Can you imagine a life of continually counting your prayer beads over and over and over ad infinitum? Not a very healthy lifestyle for most of them I fear... Maybe we see the results in the Buddhist monk persecution of the Muslim minority in Burma Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I agree 100% with that! Like the Noble Eightfold Path: Right Speech, Right Thought, Right Intentions, etc... Why do they name only 8 classes? Why do they name classes at all? Why not just: Live Right? And anyway the challenge isn't doing all the 'right' things. The challenge is determining what is right and what is not. I call this The Twelve Days Of Christmas Syndrome: You know...four calling birds, three French hens, two turtle doves and a partridge in a pear tree. ;) ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, I think it's a matter of definition. In general I think excessive concern with 'stages' of realization is a distraction from realization... And that goes for standard Buddhism's obsessive with counting all sorts of things as well. The 7 this, the 5 that, the 8 this etc. etc. Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 2:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As you know I don't like to rely too much on Buddhist or Hindu terms either. 'Samadhi' is a meditative state of non-duality or monism. It's what I also call 'shikantazaza' if you're experiencing it during zazen. It can also be called no-thought. I associate it strongly with Buddha Nature since there is no dualism thus no delusion. I know you include delusions in Buddha Nature, but I'm just explaining my terminology. Anyway, if 'samadhi' is a state of pure non-duality how do you think that equates with 'nirvana'? I'm begining to think the only diffrence is 'samadhi' is temporary where 'nirvana' is permanent. What do you (or anyone else) think? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, I don't use the term and don't really get into all the interminable Buddhist and HIndu levels and counts of everything anyone could think of... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction between samadhi and nirvana? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Edgar, I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: ...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are... and In nirvana all forms cease permanently. I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your ...see them for what they truly are ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill!,br/br/I can tell by the completely misrepresented view of things like The Noble Eightfold Path on this forum that people criticise even though it's obvious they haven't even bothered to study them. They're absolutely beautiful and sublime teachings. Even though they're over 2,500 years old they still can be applied to life today. To criticise them also shows a complete ignorance of upaya (skilful means) to teach the Dharma. Different people, with different personalities and temperaments will always require a variety of different teaching methods. Otherwise we get into the bigotry of believing that only my way is the correct way.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/The Buddhadharma in its present form has been around for 2,500 years and still applicable today. I wonder how long your ontological energy theory (or whatever it is) will be around?...br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, It's two names for the same thing, though understood differently by many of course... It's not the names that matter since the thing itself is nameless. It's the thing itself that matters... I wouldn't get hung up in the names for it Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 10:57 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar,br/br/The Buddhadharma in its present form has been around for 2,500 years and still applicable today. I wonder how long your ontological energy theory (or whatever it is) will be around?...br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/They're not the same thing with a different name. 'Buddha Dharma' refers to the whole body of work developed and taught by the Buddha including the sutras and methods of meditation etc. I've yet to see anything resembling this from you (seeing illusion as reality doesn't really comprise a whole body of work).br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, Yes, you are right. I mistook Buddha Dharma for Buddha Nature which is another name for my ontological energy. As to the volume of work produced my book currently being finished up is over 300 pages which is a lot more than Buddha ever wrote though he might have written more if he had Microsoft Word! :-) Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 8:19 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, They're not the same thing with a different name. 'Buddha Dharma' refers to the whole body of work developed and taught by the Buddha including the sutras and methods of meditation etc. I've yet to see anything resembling this from you (seeing illusion as reality doesn't really comprise a whole body of work). Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Sat, Jun 29, 2013 4:45:01 PM Mike, It's two names for the same thing, though understood differently by many of course... It's not the names that matter since the thing itself is nameless. It's the thing itself that matters... I wouldn't get hung up in the names for it Edgar On Jun 29, 2013, at 10:57 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar,br/br/The Buddhadharma in its present form has been around for 2,500 years and still applicable today. I wonder how long your ontological energy theory (or whatever it is) will be around?...br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/No worries. Btw, Buddha would've been an Apple user.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/You're certainly entitled to your opinion that karma is nonsense, but I agree with the Buddhadharma - that on observing the natural world there are laws that affect it. These laws govern the universe and as we are part of the universe those same laws govern us. Whether you see them as real, illusory or delusional doesn't really matter. You'll still grow old. Your hand will still burn if you put it in a fire. And your suffering or happiness will still depend on your thoughts and actions (happiness or suffering are not just random events, but are created by prior causes and conditions). If tomorrow morning you wake up as an elephant, then maybe I'll reconsider that the observable universe doesn't have an order. Of course, these laws are conceptual, so much of this will also depend on whether you recognise that there are two truths - the relative and the ultimate. Buddha did and that's what I also witness.br/br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, You are confusing cause and effect which is obviously true (even though Bill denies it) and karma which is a pre-scientific moralistic view of cause and effect Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:23 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, You're certainly entitled to your opinion that karma is nonsense, but I agree with the Buddhadharma - that on observing the natural world there are laws that affect it. These laws govern the universe and as we are part of the universe those same laws govern us. Whether you see them as real, illusory or delusional doesn't really matter. You'll still grow old. Your hand will still burn if you put it in a fire. And your suffering or happiness will still depend on your thoughts and actions (happiness or suffering are not just random events, but are created by prior causes and conditions). If tomorrow morning you wake up as an elephant, then maybe I'll reconsider that the observable universe doesn't have an order. Of course, these laws are conceptual, so much of this will also depend on whether you recognise that there are two truths - the relative and the ultimate. Buddha did and that's what I also witness. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 11:40:32 AM Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Edgar,br/br/There really is no confusion in my post whatsoever. Buddha wanted to find out how to live happily and at peace in an ever changing world. His first premise was that from the actual you can deduce the practical. The actual are the laws I mentioned previously. His second premise was that to sit at the feet of the real he used his own body-mind as a laboratory - the answers to his questions live within. He observed that every time his body changed his thoughts changed - and that every time his thoughts changed his body sensations changed. Body-mind are constantly changing just as the universe does. These changes (micro-macro) aren't just random, but are lawful - everything in the body-mind is lawful. Every thought is caused and every change in the body is caused. And what causes thoughts? Our volitions. Craving for things we don't have and want and aversion for the things we have, but don't want. The (moral) action we take to satisfy our desires is what creates our karma. This is what Buddha discovered and taught and I see no reason to reject it as its truth can be directly experienced and observed.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, OK, then the only disagreement is that I maintain your 'delusions' are PART of reality since I define reality as everything that exists without exception and you think delusions are NOT part of reality... Without that additional step you don't realize the meaning of 'mountains are mountains again'. That's the realization that the illusions (delusions) are in fact the true nature of mountains but only as realized as the illusions they are Of course the true nature of mountains like everything is the formless Buddha Nature but that manifests as all the illusory forms, therefore the illusory forms are form manifestations of Buddha Nature rather than something standing apart from it. Without this realization you are stuck in the permanent dualism of a world consisting of Buddha Nature and of illusory forms. The true understanding is the non-dualistic realization that illusory forms manifest Buddha Nature and thus they are part of Buddha Nature Ah well, I don't expect you to get this but I keep trying... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:09 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: ...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are... and In nirvana all forms cease permanently. I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your ...see them for what they truly are ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Bill, I don't use the term and don't really get into all the interminable Buddhist and HIndu levels and counts of everything anyone could think of... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction between samadhi and nirvana? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and nirvana: ...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are... and In nirvana all forms cease permanently. I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your ...see them for what they truly are ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible.br/br/Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research..br/br/He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)br/br/Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)br/br/In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92]br/(Wiki)br/br/The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90]br/br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, Agreed. So? That has nothing to do with the naive Buddhist Hindu view of karma as doing good you'll get good in return and vice versa... Argue your point with Bill. He's the one that claims it's not true... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:16 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, There really is no confusion in my post whatsoever. Buddha wanted to find out how to live happily and at peace in an ever changing world. His first premise was that from the actual you can deduce the practical. The actual are the laws I mentioned previously. His second premise was that to sit at the feet of the real he used his own body-mind as a laboratory - the answers to his questions live within. He observed that every time his body changed his thoughts changed - and that every time his thoughts changed his body sensations changed. Body-mind are constantly changing just as the universe does. These changes (micro-macro) aren't just random, but are lawful - everything in the body-mind is lawful. Every thought is caused and every change in the body is caused. And what causes thoughts? Our volitions. Craving for things we don't have and want and aversion for the things we have, but don't want. The (moral) action we take to satisfy our desires is what creates our karma. This is what Buddha discovered and taught and I see no reason to reject it as its truth can be directly experienced and observed. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 1:29:08 PM Mike, You are confusing cause and effect which is obviously true (even though Bill denies it) and karma which is a pre-scientific moralistic view of cause and effect Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:23 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, You're certainly entitled to your opinion that karma is nonsense, but I agree with the Buddhadharma - that on observing the natural world there are laws that affect it. These laws govern the universe and as we are part of the universe those same laws govern us. Whether you see them as real, illusory or delusional doesn't really matter. You'll still grow old. Your hand will still burn if you put it in a fire. And your suffering or happiness will still depend on your thoughts and actions (happiness or suffering are not just random events, but are created by prior causes and conditions). If tomorrow morning you wake up as an elephant, then maybe I'll reconsider that the observable universe doesn't have an order. Of course, these laws are conceptual, so much of this will also depend on whether you recognise that there are two truths - the relative and the ultimate. Buddha did and that's what I also witness. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Fri, Jun 28, 2013 11:40:32 AM Mike, First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't have time to wade through it all.. Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana all forms cease permanently. Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and eventual escape form altogether. But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or not. Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation when seen in the proper light. That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar,br/br/There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, All religions are CRAZY. They are delusional nonsense long refuted by science. Zen is revealing the truth about everything. It's not coddling organized religion but pointing out it's an impediment to realization.. Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:18 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, On a point of order, I don't think it's appropriate here -- now -- or ever -- to use the word crazy when referring to a religion. Such loose talk is the cause of trouble. You may have (and maintain) your biases, of course, but you are not helpful to the conversation and to relations, here, when you express them. Please desist in that. thanks --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Mike, No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just be changed anytime. People are always bound by prior actions according to the karma theory. You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea that if you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely forgiven.
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Hi Edgar Mike, Based on my witness, the Buddhist karma is slightly different from cause and effect. Buddist karma is inherited via our subconsciousness. It can be cleansed as per Mike's sutra quotations. In other words, our subconsciousness causes us to act, often beyond the control of our logical mind. That's what Buddhist Karma is referring to. While phenomena of nature occurs based on cause and effect without human intervention. I have witness karma cleansing also via my enlightened Master. JM On 6/28/2013 12:07 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Edgar, There is no confusion in what I said at all and it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or deterministic which would make emancipation from karma impossible. Here are a few snippets on the subject. There are many, many more out there if you care to do the research.. He who believes in Karma does not condemn even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net) Since basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no one to receive the effect, whether it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com) In the Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative past karma can be purified through such practices as meditation on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he or she otherwise would have.[92] (Wiki) The Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise bind one in saṃsāra.[89][90] Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad *From: * Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net; *To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage *Sent: * Thu, Jun 27, 2013 1:07:05 PM Mike, No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just be changed anytime. People are always bound by prior actions according to the karma theory. You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea that if you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely forgiven. Edgar On Jun 27, 2013, at 5:12 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Suresh, Hope you don't mind me jumping in here? Someone has the wrong understanding of karma. At least the karma a taught by Buddha. Karma is not the same as a fatalistic or determinative belief. Karma can be changed at anytime if the right actions/thoughts are performed. Also, it is wrong to judge another's circumstances as a result of good or bad karma - we can only workout are own. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad *From: * Suresh varam...@gmail.com; *To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; *Subject: * [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage *Sent: * Thu, Jun 27, 2013 7:00:56 AM Dear Joe, I understand your concern. The members of other forum describe that catastrophe as order of god or fate or Karma. I oppose as it is nothing to do with god, fate or Karma, it is science's cause and effect such as global warming and inadequate disaster management in the country and Carelessness of administrators. I said, because of karma theory, people become lazy to do anything, because all is destined to happen even you do whatever to prevent. I want to remove that attitude and people should feel responsible for better living in this world, hence they have to work hard, the unknown god will not work for them. This is what the whole emphasis is Best regards Suresh --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, I'm sorry, and have to admit, I am lost. I ask your help. The considerations in your transferred post go well beyond my little knowledge of Hindu scripture and tradition. And because I lack the context of the original motivation for your posting, I don't feel enthusiastic to delve deeply into this as a quite independent researcher. Perhaps if you were to summarize your concerns in a paragraph, or two, in simple terms, I might grasp it. Others here, might, too
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and should be outed as such... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
PS: I doubt Jesus' feelings will be hurt by anything I say about the religion founded in his name that has little to do with him since he's been dead for some 2000 years. But if he was alive I suspect he'd be agreeing with me rather than Joe... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: Joe, Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and should be outed as such... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, Stop your carping and reread the rules... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, (and Bill!), Pls. be advised of the POSSIBILITY that persons on the list -- maybe many of them quiet -- may hold doctrines dearly, personally, and importantly. It is not your place to call the doctrines, or those who hold them, names. Doctrines and practices are held by PEOPLE: they do not exist in the abstract, but only in warm-blooded Mammals called Humans. Please realize this. Stop your named-calling and insulting characterizations. Please. For the good of this Forum. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and should be outed as such... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Joe, Stop your carping and reread the rules... The moderators have agreed on the rules and it's not up to you to change them. A single complaint is OK, but incessant gripping on the same issue is off topic and has nothing to do with zen.. Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, (and Bill!), Pls. be advised of the POSSIBILITY that persons on the list -- maybe many of them quiet -- may hold doctrines dearly, personally, and importantly. It is not your place to call the doctrines, or those who hold them, names. Doctrines and practices are held by PEOPLE: they do not exist in the abstract, but only in warm-blooded Mammals called Humans. Please realize this. Stop your named-calling and insulting characterizations. Please. For the good of this Forum. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Civility applies to persons on the list, not abstract doctrines many of which, especially those of the organized religions are total delusional nonsense and should be outed as such... Edgar On Jun 28, 2013, at 11:20 AM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Bill!, This does not seem appropriate speech, here, considering all we've gone through to establish civility and maintain rules of conduct. As certain doctrines are central to certain traditions, it is NOT appropriate to call them names, when one views from a set of biases which have nothing to do with the tradition. That is school yard taunting, is incorrect, and should not be tolerated here. thanks, Moderators, for your further and better consideration, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just explaining it. [snip]
RE: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Suresh,br/br/Hope you don't mind me jumping in here? Someone has the wrong understanding of karma. At least the karma a taught by Buddha. Karma is not the same as a fatalistic or determinative belief. Karma can be changed at anytime if the right actions/thoughts are performed. Also, it is wrong to judge another's circumstances as a result of good or bad karma - we can only workout are own.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage
Mike, No, this is not the correct understanding of karma. It can't just be changed anytime. People are always bound by prior actions according to the karma theory. You are confusing the theory of karma with the crazy Christian idea that if you repent then all your past sins are suddenly and completely forgiven. Edgar On Jun 27, 2013, at 5:12 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Suresh, Hope you don't mind me jumping in here? Someone has the wrong understanding of karma. At least the karma a taught by Buddha. Karma is not the same as a fatalistic or determinative belief. Karma can be changed at anytime if the right actions/thoughts are performed. Also, it is wrong to judge another's circumstances as a result of good or bad karma - we can only workout are own. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Suresh varam...@gmail.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: [Zen] Re: Fw: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Sent: Thu, Jun 27, 2013 7:00:56 AM Dear Joe, I understand your concern. The members of other forum describe that catastrophe as order of god or fate or Karma. I oppose as it is nothing to do with god, fate or Karma, it is science's cause and effect such as global warming and inadequate disaster management in the country and Carelessness of administrators. I said, because of karma theory, people become lazy to do anything, because all is destined to happen even you do whatever to prevent. I want to remove that attitude and people should feel responsible for better living in this world, hence they have to work hard, the unknown god will not work for them. This is what the whole emphasis is Best regards Suresh --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Suresh, I'm sorry, and have to admit, I am lost. I ask your help. The considerations in your transferred post go well beyond my little knowledge of Hindu scripture and tradition. And because I lack the context of the original motivation for your posting, I don't feel enthusiastic to delve deeply into this as a quite independent researcher. Perhaps if you were to summarize your concerns in a paragraph, or two, in simple terms, I might grasp it. Others here, might, too. But to be true to the working conditions of this Forum, I would need to make a connection with Zen, or Zen Buddhism, Ch'an, etc. That might be a stretch. But regardless, see what you can do to summarize your concern and question BRIEFLY. I might learn something. Thank you! --Joe varamtha@ wrote: Dear Joe, Below my mail was not approved by other forum. Am I wrong in my view, please comment. Brgds Suresh Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel -Original Message- From: SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:10:59 To: USA Brhminsusbrahm...@yahoogroups.com Cc: karavind09@; udayshanker1@; ram mohan anantha paipairamblr@; Subramanian Balachandransuba42@; Barath Ganesancatchbarath@; iyer123iyer...@yahoogroups.com; svs_iyer@; krishlal@ Subject: Re: It was like Shiva dancing in rage Dear Sri.Aravinda rao, Thank you for your mail. Dr.R.Krishnan states that People described the scene and compared it to Rudra thandavam. [snip]
