RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having taught false doctrine, is a statement from them renouncing the false doctrine required for their repentance? It would seem like it should be. If so, the fact that no such announcement was made regarding the views of a given person who was excomunicated would be indicative that those veiws were _not_ the cause of their excomunication. It would _NOT_ indicate that they were correct, just that they were not the cause of the excomunication. Scott On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:22:46 +, Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Great consideration is given regarding the confidentiality of the decisions of a Church disciplinary council. No announcement is ever made when a member is placed on formal probation. Decisions to disfellowship or excommunicate are generally not announced publicly unless the transgression is widely known, the transgressor's behavior constitutes a threat to the Church or the community, or an announcement is necessary to dispel rumors. Even when an announcement is made, it is limited to a general statement of the outcome. (M. Russell Ballard, Counseling with Our Councils: Learning to Minister Together in the Church and in the Family [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1997], 141 - 142.) -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Scott McGee wrote: --- Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having taught false doctrine, is a statement from them renouncing the false doctrine required for their repentance? --- If there is such a policy, I have not heard of it. In my experience, the specific information relating to most disciplinary courts is never disclosed by the church, notwithstanding circumstances where you might think that some public straightening-out would be in order. At the most, I have on occasion heard brief statements read in a local priesthood meeting, generally to the effect that so-and-so is no longer in fellowship with the church. I have never heard of an excommunicated member being encouraged to make public statements, either to renounce the false teaching he might have been promoting or for any other reason. In fact it would seem that the opposite approach is generally followed--excommunicated members are usually discouraged from publically discussing their problems or mistakes. Those that air their dirty laundry seemingly tend to be continuing in open defiance against the counsel of local leaders, some going to extremes like holding press conferences or publishing books or articles exposing their supposedly unfair handling by ecclesiastical authorities. Those who would repent and seek to have their membership restored seem to see this as a private matter, of which they have little desire to discuss publically. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
Atonement for sin is no longer made by the high priest in Israel when he passes through the veil of the temple into the holy of holies. (Lev. 16.) See Heb. 6:19-20. Now there is a new way, a living way, for the veil of the old temple was rent with the crucifixion. (Matt. 27:50-51.) Now Jesus has passed through the veil into heaven itself. While he lived, his mortal flesh stood between him and the eternal holy of holies, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50), but now he has, at it were, rent the veil of his flesh through death and entered into the fulness of his Father's kingdom through resurrection. (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 3: 191.) 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. (Hebrews 6:19-20.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
One of the most significant meanings of the veil is the representation of our separation from God. He has counseled us to prepare for the eventual removal of that veil... 22 Behold, it is my will, that all they who call on my name, and worship me according to mine everlasting gospel, should gather together, and stand in holy places; 23 And prepare for the revelation which is to come, when the veil of the covering of my temple, in my tabernacle, which hideth the earth, shall be taken off, and all flesh shall see me together. (Doctrine and Covenants 101:22-23.) Prophets of old--Isaiah, Nephi, the brother of Jared, and others-- were able to penetrate the veil by the force of their own faith, and see the Lord, face to face... 2 And now I, Nephi, write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words. For I will liken his words unto my people, and I will send them forth unto all my children, for he verily _saw_ my Redeemer, even as _I_ have seen him. 3 And my brother, Jacob, _also_ has seen him as I have seen him; wherefore, I will send their words forth unto my children to prove unto them that my words are true. Wherefore, by the words of three, God hath said, I will establish my word. Nevertheless, God sendeth more witnesses, and he proveth all his words. (2 Nephi 11:2-3.) --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] My Future plans
FYI, This Friday I officially retire from the USAF, and I'm in the middle of closing on the sale of my house (they are getting a terrific deal). Anyway, just to let y'all know, Ramona and I are planning on moving to Utah (initially the SLC area) in early January. That's where my family resides. So, I'll be looking for work. If any of you have any openings, or know of any, please let me know. I'll be open to working anywhere between Logan and Santaquin (just south of Provo). The job wouldn't have to provide medical, as I get that with my AF retirement, so that will make it cheaper on an employer. For those bored already, read no further. Anyone needing a basic set of my qualifications, please read on: I have an Associate's in MIS, a BS in Resource Mgmt, and a MA in Teaching/history. In the USAF, I have mostly experience in computers and management. I initially started in law enforcement, working with police dogs (1982-1986). Since then, I've worked in computers. 1986-1990: programming in C and Cobol 1990-1992: security management on Honeywell mainframe, helpdesk support for Honeywell users in the field 1992-1995: managed CD-ROM technologies for USAF (including early adoption of CD-Recordable). Managed help desk issues for CD-ROM. On technical evaluation team for AF Desktop V contract - $2 billion award for computers and peripherals. technical evaluation team for $1 million dollar software purchase for electronic document management for USAF publications. Building manager of 175,000 square foot building. 1995-1999: project/team manager for several USAF software programs. Managed team handling the development of AF's Defense Information Infrastructure Common Operating Environment. Team manager for AF Software Reuse Center - trained programmers on software reuse development, managed website center for downloading reusable software components. 1999-2000: Division superintendent - handled human resource issues for office of 70 people. Reviewed all annual employee reports, ran quarterly employee recognition program, handled employee issues/problems. Started up new team projects: new AF certification and accreditation security team, and AF Oracle help desk. 2000-2002: team manager for all software distribution at USAF's major software development office (HQ SSG). Managed creation of over 25,000 CD-ROMs/Floppies/4mm tape/etc for over 200 major software releases per year. This included downloading of over 1 terabyte of data from website maintained in house. Creation and shipment of 10,000 CD-ROMs per year for USAF Oracle contract shipments. I have written and edited several requirements documents and technical manuals over the past 15 years, so have experience in writing and copy editing. All of this and I have a sparkling personality. Controversial? No, not me, not in the least! Just ask everyone on this list that I agree with everything they believe in. JWR's conspiracies? Definitely! Marc's liberal views? Of course I agree with them. It's election time and I'm ready to promise anything to get a decent job. ;-) Seriously, I'm very open to going into new areas besides technology. I would prefer a management or teaching position, but like working, so I'll considered most anything legal and moral. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having taught false doctrine No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
In fact it would seem that the opposite approach is generally followed--excommunicated members are usually discouraged from publically discussing their problems or mistakes My last Stake President was excommunicated. Shortly after his excommunication he being accompanied by the new Stake President visited the priesthood quorums and the Relief Society to express his apologies. I seem to remember he visited the youth too. He appeared to be very sorry but no longer towered with a spiritual aura but appeared shrunken. It was evident that he did not have the Holy Ghost. It was really strange. Take heed brothers and sisters, any of us including the sanctified can fall. And that means you! Watch and be on guard. Pray always and don't give up. Satan has your number and he will work on you relentlessly. He does with me and I'm having a hard time holding on as I'm going through the fire of testing. Gadzooks, I will be glad when it's over--someday. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] My Future plans
All of this and I have a sparkling personality. Controversial? No, not me, not in the least! Just ask everyone on this list that I agree with everything they believe in. JWR's conspiracies? Definitely! Marc's liberal views? Of course I agree with them. It's election time and I'm ready to promise anything to get a decent job. ;-) What about Paul's 6,000 year plan, man? Will you buy that one too? ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] My Future plans
so I'll considered most anything legal and moral. Sorry but those positions no longer exist! ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Using the Gospel As a Club
At 11:31 AM, Monday, 10/28/02, Gary Smith wrote: I grant you your opinion on the CFR and those who belong to it, however I won't let you get by with equating a belief in the gospel with your belief in a secret combination. There is evidence for believing the gospel, such as the Holy Ghost. There is no solid evidence on any level for the CFR charges. I never intended you to suppose I was using the gospel to buttress my claim that the CFR is a pack of Gadianton Robbers. The only reason I mentioned the gospel was to point out that not all that is true can be proven to be true. I realize that my belief that there is a secret combination hidden within the CFR is something that I cannot prove to a skeptic. The concrete evidence isn't there. The evidence is circumstantial. But I also realize, and I wanted you to realize, that an inablility to prove something does not disprove it. Your statement is akin to saying that although I can't prove evolution to be true, it just must be because I personally just feel that the GAs agree with me. Empty statements with key points we agree upon does not equate to evidence. In the future, just state your opinion without dragging the gospel into it. Okay? Had you understood my post in the spirit with which it was written you would not be upset with me. Nevertheless, I apologize. Please forgive me. I was my responsibility to communicate my meaning more effectively. Apparently I failed in this instance. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of our solar system. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Paul Osborne wrote: --- No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. --- Fortunate for me--I get it wrong nearly every time, and I wouldn't have lasted long in this church otherwise. Tolerance is the virtual safety belt that lets us live with each other in our imperfections. In fact I'm not sure we even take notice when false doctrine is preached, unless it somehow offends the sense of one of our own favorite issues. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
Hello, Does anyone know of an accurate study Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek? I would like to learn more about those biblical languages and I figure that this is the way to do it. However, I am unsure of which Bible to purchase. There are different interlinear ones, but what I am looking for doesn't necessarily have to be interlinear. I wouldn't mind something that included Latin or Aramaic as well. There was such a book that one of the Church Father's put together, but the name of it escapes me. Does something like that exist today? Thank you for your input, Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
At 12:30 PM, Tuesday, 10/29/02, Paul Osborne wrote: No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. He can if he tries to convince others that it is Church doctrine. Also, if he is teaching false doctrine, his priesthood leaders will ask him to stop. And if he defiantly continues to expound the false teaching, he will be excommunicated. We always need to keep in mind the difference between false doctrine and not doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
At 08:43 PM, Monday, 10/28/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote: 5. Moses 7:26 mentions Satan veiling the earth with his chain, symbolizing (I believe) the captivity of sin and the blindness Satan causes in the hearts of men. Isaiah 25:7 also uses this symbolism. Just some musings during the gospel doctrine discussion yesterday. It's too heavy for me. But then I have a hard time with symbolism. I am too literal minded. It has occurred to me that when we are dealing with other adults, we cannot know who they were in the premortal existence, and they cannot know who we truly are. I have heard it said that if we could only pierce that veil we would hold each other in much higher regard. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
It depends on what's meant by teaching. If you are GD teacher and you let slip a whopper in all innocence, no one's going to care, although you may be corrected. But if you start doing it purposely, knowing it's against the core doctrine of the Church (like, say, we should all go back to polygamy), you'll be hauled up on your SP's carpet rate* some smartly, as my Nova Scotia family members say. *rate is really right, but that's how many Canadians pronounce it. Mark, Bonnie, et. al., try saying right away quickly and see how it comes out. Paul Osborne wrote: Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having taught false doctrine No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Using the Gospel As a Club
I actually sympathize with John in this. He knows I don't agree with him, either,
but we've simply agreed to disagree and both agree that it's not really core
doctrine. As my old Institute prof, Dr. Larry Dahl (who later became Dean of
Religious Education at BYU) was fond of saying in his classes, when we aren't
hampered by facts [what John would call direct, or concrete evidence] we're free
to speculate all we want.
The *principle* that something's amiss amongst secular governments and that in
the latter days we'll be headed for hell in a handbasket is the doctrine. That
the CFR is the cause or part of it is not doctrine, but not an unreasonable
deduction (although I personally don't buy it -- I just don't think it's that
simple). So I no longer react with horror when someone mentions this.
Besides, I have my own pet theories I wanna protect ;-)
John W. Redelfs wrote:
At 11:31 AM, Monday, 10/28/02, Gary Smith wrote:
I grant you your opinion on the CFR and those who belong to it, however I
won't let you get by with equating a belief in the gospel with your
belief in a secret combination. There is evidence for believing the
gospel, such as the Holy Ghost. There is no solid evidence on any level
for the CFR charges.
I never intended you to suppose I was using the gospel to buttress my claim
that the CFR is a pack of Gadianton Robbers. The only reason I mentioned
the gospel was to point out that not all that is true can be proven to be
true. I realize that my belief that there is a secret combination hidden
within the CFR is something that I cannot prove to a skeptic. The concrete
evidence isn't there. The evidence is circumstantial. But I also realize,
and I wanted you to realize, that an inablility to prove something does not
disprove it.
Your statement is akin to saying that although I can't prove evolution to
be true, it just must be because I personally just feel that the GAs
agree with me. Empty statements with key points we agree upon does not
equate to evidence. In the future, just state your opinion without
dragging the gospel into it. Okay?
Had you understood my post in the spirit with which it was written you
would not be upset with me. Nevertheless, I apologize. Please forgive
me. I was my responsibility to communicate my meaning more
effectively. Apparently I failed in this instance.
John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more
and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of
our solar system. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
/
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/
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
It depends on what's meant by teaching. If you are GD teacher and you let slip a whopper in all innocence, no one's going to care, although you may be corrected. But if you start doing it purposely, knowing it's against the core doctrine of the Church (like, say, we should all go back to polygamy), you'll be hauled up on your SP's carpet rate* some smartly, as my Nova Scotia family members say. I don't care what the person taught--he or she cannot be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. But, if they continue in their *disobedience* after having been admonished not to to teach false doctrine they will undoubtedly find themselves under some sort of church discipline which could lead to excommunication depending on the nature and extent of their sin. Polygamy? No thanks. I'm not going to get involved. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] You Just Don't Get It
Are there people here who defend apostate sects? Or is this a high council talk
;-)
Reminds me of a true story (do I tell any other kind?). Once, in the 80s, when
the Cold War was at its, er, hottest, I gave a talk in my ward in Ottawa. People
knew I travelled a lot, and was only at sacrament maybe half the time due to my
demanding travel schedule. At the beginning of my talk, I said, straight-faced,
that I had recently been to Moscow, and had been picked up along with 3 other
people, all USAmericans, by the KGB. We shared a cell in Lubyanka Prison for the
night. Our crime was being caught with religious material, namely, our
scriptures. I was nothing (actually my calling was back-up GD teacher iirc) but
the other 3 consisted of a Relief Society president, a high councillor and a
bishop. The guards came and granted each of us a last wish as we were going to
be shot at dawn. The bishop said he wanted his scriptures back so he could read
in them until his execution. This was granted. The high councillor said he had
been scheduled to give a talk in his home ward back home, and he wanted to give
it to the rest of us so he could do his best at completing his assignment. This
was granted. All eyes turned to the RS president, who said, immediately, My last
wish is to be shot before the high councillor gives his talk
One elderly lady came up to me later and said, Oh, it's such a vicious regime
over there, isn't it? It's a miracle you got out of there alive. Sigh. As the
subject line says, you just don't get it. :-)
John W. Redelfs wrote:
To those who defend apostate sects:
You just don't get it. There was a Great Apostasy during the first two
centuries of the Christian era. It was caused by the devil and his
followers introducing false doctrine. The apostasy was complete. The
priesthood was taken from the earth. The churches not only lost their
right to perform the saving ordinances, but they also began to teach false
doctrine.
Remember, outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints this
apostasy is still going on. More and more true doctrine is lost as century
after century the vestigial, true doctrine is replaced with false doctrine.
The Restoration has begun. It is ongoing. Once again angels visit the
earth and teach our Savior's pure and redeeming doctrine. Among the
Latter-day Saints, and among them alone, the truth has been restored by
angels, the Holy Ghost, and true prophets.
But outside the Church the apostasy continues. Satan has been successful
in corrupting all flesh and darkness prevails upon the earth, among the
children of men.
(Doctrine and Covenants, Section 38:11) There is only one shining ray of
hope, one glimmer of light in the darkness. And that is the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, the restoration of the true doctrines of
Jesus Christ.
There are good people in the other churches. Because of the Holy Ghost
these good people do not believe everything their ministers tell them. But
the religion those ministers teach, the doctrines they learned in the
seminaries and post divinity degree programs, are false. And it is evil to
teach them, just as it is a fatal mistake to believe them.
True, the growing darkness is not a perfect darkness. There are still some
vestiges of truth among the other sects. That is why President Hinckley,
and every prophet before him, tells those of other religions to keep the
truth that they have and let us add to it. But let there be no mistake,
the doctrine taught by their religious leaders is evil. It is evil because
it perverts the right way of the Lord. And in many cases, perhaps most, it
does not prepare them for our missionaries. Rather it hardens them in
their wrong way.
Your friend and brother,
John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
/
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
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Re: [ZION] The veil
It has occurred to me that when we are dealing with other adults, we cannot know who they were in the premortal existence, and they cannot know who we truly are. I have heard it said that if we could only pierce that veil we would hold each other in much higher regard. I agree. I believe that we all knew every single person who has and will come to this earth in the finest degree. We were super intelligent in the preexistence and were learning to think like God on a much higher level than we think now. Yes, we all know each other very intimately and the inhabitants of this earth share a common bond together as we serve in this mission. It is a terrible thing to trespass against another person. The atonement will prevent a lot of pain that would be our due if we didn't repent. Christ truly suffered beyond our ability to know. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
I agree. You're an excellent reader and thanks for pointing out the difference. Paul O On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:40:33 -0900 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At 12:30 PM, Tuesday, 10/29/02, Paul Osborne wrote: No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. He can if he tries to convince others that it is Church doctrine. Also, if he is teaching false doctrine, his priesthood leaders will ask him to stop. And if he defiantly continues to expound the false teaching, he will be excommunicated. We always need to keep in mind the difference between false doctrine and not doctrine. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The veil
A good book you might consider is Nibley's book on the temple. It's vol. 12,
Temple and Cosmos. It explains a lot of symbolism using ancient temples as
examples. A good non-LDS book was written by a man who recently passed away and
is better known as a critic of the so-called mystic school of English poets
(primarily William Blake), but who was also an ordained mainstream Protestant
minister and taught at Victoria College, U of Toronto, which houses the United
Church of Canada's seminary. His name's Northrop Frye and he wrote a kind of
double book, one called The Great Code: the Bible and Literature, and Words
With Power, its successor (and written in a chiastic form, interestingly).
Although he's not LDS, I think so much of Frye that I have devoted a section of
my website to him.
Go to http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/B/scripture.htm and you'll see 3
items by/about him: B1 is a shorter piece, and B3 is a longer piece with
extensive excerpts from his two books. B12 is a review I wrote on one of his
books for either Dialogue or Sunstone -- offhand I forget which. B15 isn't bad
either -- it's about symbolism and literary techniques (such as onomatopoeia and
alliteration which is lost in the translation) in Isaiah.
John W. Redelfs wrote:
At 08:43 PM, Monday, 10/28/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote:
5. Moses 7:26 mentions Satan veiling the earth with his chain,
symbolizing (I believe) the captivity of sin and the blindness Satan
causes in the hearts of men. Isaiah 25:7 also uses this symbolism.
Just some musings during the gospel doctrine discussion yesterday.
It's too heavy for me. But then I have a hard time with symbolism. I am
too literal minded. It has occurred to me that when we are dealing with
other adults, we cannot know who they were in the premortal existence, and
they cannot know who we truly are. I have heard it said that if we could
only pierce that veil we would hold each other in much higher regard.
John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to
laugh at that man. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
/
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
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RE: [ZION] You Just Don't Get It
-Marc- Are there people here who defend apostate sects? Or is this a high council talk ;-) Actually, I agree with John in this. It's one thing to say that some/many/most/all religions contain truths. It's quite another to say that God directed that they be established as a sort of halfway house for sinners in their journey to him. The former seems obvious; the latter is directly contrary to my understanding of God's dealings with us. Yes, good and honest men and women, working through the light of Christ, can bring to pass good works. That does not mean that those works, be they social contributions or religious organizations, are inspired by God, approved of him, or granted any special status outside what the Lord told Joseph Smith about the creeds of his (and our) day. I would not choose to lead into a conversation with a non-member by citing this fact, however. In some instances, our similarities are much more important than our differences. But let's not be deceived into believing that Such-and-such Church or sect or religion has been set up under the inspiration of God for the edification of his children. I disbelieve that, and in fact believe it to be in direct contradiction to our teachings, as I mentioned above. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
-Jim- One of the most significant meanings of the veil is the representation of our separation from God. Jim, it's great to hear you again (speaking symbolically :). In fact, I would say that the representation of our separation from God is the *primary* meaning of the veil, in all cases I've been able to identify. Interesting that that separation is sometimes considered necessary, even beneficial, though temporary, while at others, it's a curse. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
The standard editions used by most scholars are:
Hebrew: Biblia Hebraica, from the Deutsche Bibelstiftung (also known as the
Württembergische Bibel Gesellschaft) in Stuttgart, Germany. It should be
available in any Christian bookstore (or here in Canada, from stores of the
Canadian Bible Society).
Greek: Greek New Testament, edited by Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, et. al.
Published by the United Bible Societies, and likewise available from your
national Bible society or Christian bookstore.
Geoff FOWLER wrote:
Hello,
Does anyone know of an accurate study Bible in the original Hebrew and
Greek? I would like to learn more about those biblical languages and I
figure that this is the way to do it. However, I am unsure of which
Bible to purchase. There are different interlinear ones, but what I am
looking for doesn't necessarily have to be interlinear.
I wouldn't mind something that included Latin or Aramaic as well. There
was such a book that one of the Church Father's put together, but the
name of it escapes me. Does something like that exist today?
Thank you for your input,
Geoff
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
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Re: [ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
Perhaps I should have explained, the Biblia Sacra that I picked up was the
Louvain Rescension - 1590. The font is, on a good day, smaller than 6 point
and not user friendly. So much for my feeble Latin voyage into the
antiquities...
Noel
---Original Message---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:58:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
A good Latin Bible (the Vulgate version, naturally) is Biblia Sacra Latina,
known
as the Sistine Version (because it was commissioned by Pope Sixtus V and
later
reworked a bit under Clement VIII. My version was published by Samuel
Bagster
Sons, and as usual, I got it at the Canadian Bible Society (we have a good
store
of the CBS that's right on the edge of the U of Alberta campus), but most
Christian bookstores will carry it. It uses modern Roman script, so isn't
hard to
read.
Noel Bennion wrote:
Geoff,
I use the Interlinear Bible by Jay P. Green with the The Strongest Strongs
Concordance. The Interlinear Bible by Green comes in two flavors; there is
a 4 volume set that doesn't have the Strong numbers in it and there is a
one
volue set that does. I had both and ended up selling the 4 volume set
because I liked having the Strongs information in the book. Both sets use
what I believe is called the literal translation of the bible, somewhat
different than the KJV.
You just have to have good eyes or a good pair of glasses to use it. While
this approach doesn't necessarily teach you the language fundamentals, it
does give you insights into the Hebrew and Greek word applications.
I have picked up an old Latin bible and a basic teach yourself Latin book
and got thoroughly annoyed because challenge of reading the old latin text
Noel
---Original Message---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 5:00:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
Hello,
Does anyone know of an accurate study Bible in the original Hebrew and
Greek? I would like to learn more about those biblical languages and I
figure that this is the way to do it. However, I am unsure of which
Bible to purchase. There are different interlinear ones, but what I am
looking for doesn't necessarily have to be interlinear.
I wouldn't mind something that included Latin or Aramaic as well. There
was such a book that one of the Church Father's put together, but the
name of it escapes me. Does something like that exist today?
Thank you for your input,
Geoff
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
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[ZION] CBW: what was used in Moscow?
For those interested in CBW, here's a speculation as to the gas
(actually combination of gases) probably used by the Russian Alpha unit*
to disarm the Chechen hostage takers in the Moscow theatre:
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=1tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.htmlcf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfgconfigFileLoc=tgam/configencoded_keywords=was+gas%27s+useoption=start_row=1start_row_offset1=num_rows=1search_results_start=1query=was+gas%27s+use
Complications included: 1) uncertainty as to how much gas would be
needed to be delivered quickly enough through the building's ventilation
system; 2) the already stressed situation of the captives; and of course
3) the refusal of the Army to give the hospitals the information they
needed to deliver an antidote. This appears to have been used as an
experiment by the Alpha unit.
*my son served a mission in Russia and had a summer missionary from
Moscow who knew a member of the Alpha unit who was in training in
Moscow. He said they select orphans and bring them up, educate them and
they basically dedicate their whole lives to being one of these special
ops, similar to Canada's JTF2, the British SAS or the US Special Forces.
There are several other such units, too -- one is called Vy-- something;
I couldn't understand the word well enough to transcribe it.
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:31:22 + Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Paul Osborne wrote:
---
No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching
false
doctrine.
---
Fortunate for me--I get it wrong nearly every time, and I wouldn't
have
lasted long in this church otherwise. Tolerance is the virtual
safety
belt that lets us live with each other in our imperfections.
This is absolutely right, Jim.
This reminds me of a young man we used to have in our ward. He was
controversial to say the least. In fact, JWR will probably know about
whom I am referring. Anyway, he and his wife lived here for about 4
years while he got his PhD from ND. During this time, many times in
Gospel Doctrine, he'd say something, or contend something that could
easily be construed as false doctrine. However, our elder HP brethren
were always very gentle with this young man and would frequently pull him
off to the side after class and instruct correct principle with him. It
was really beautiful to watch.
Their last Sunday here was a Fast Sunday. I was extremely sad to see
them go. I love her like my own sister, but he was really special to
me--like a rebellious younger brother. But our ward had embraced and
loved this young man. (I'm getting choked up thinking about it now!). He
got up that last Sunday and thanked the ward for the fellowshipping he
and his family had received (they had two adorable little girls while
they lived here). He said that this was the only ward where he had been
truly accepted and loved and that this would always be home--and it was
mutual.
Then he said something that still makes me chuckle. He said, I know
I've stirred things up a lot here. I didn't mean to. You see, we are
like the blind men, feeling their way around an elephant. The gospel is
that elephant. We all see different things with our hands. Most all
of you are at the front of the elephant, and see the elephant the same
way. Me--I'm at the rear. It's the same elephant, but I have an
entirely different perspective than the mainstream. Someday I hope I
find the front too.
It was really touching. He also said he was grateful for the love and
patience he and his family felt while they were here. I cannot wait for
the day when I will see them again.
anyway
val
In fact I'm not sure we even take notice when false doctrine is
preached, unless it somehow offends the sense of one of our own
favorite
issues.
---
Mij Ebaboc
/
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Re: [ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
That's true -- the font size is small. Mine is the same, and it's my one
complaint -- with my middle-aged eyes I need a magnifying glass.
Noel Bennion wrote:
Perhaps I should have explained, the Biblia Sacra that I picked up was the
Louvain Rescension - 1590. The font is, on a good day, smaller than 6 point
and not user friendly. So much for my feeble Latin voyage into the
antiquities...
Noel
---Original Message---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:58:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
A good Latin Bible (the Vulgate version, naturally) is Biblia Sacra Latina,
known
as the Sistine Version (because it was commissioned by Pope Sixtus V and
later
reworked a bit under Clement VIII. My version was published by Samuel
Bagster
Sons, and as usual, I got it at the Canadian Bible Society (we have a good
store
of the CBS that's right on the edge of the U of Alberta campus), but most
Christian bookstores will carry it. It uses modern Roman script, so isn't
hard to
read.
Noel Bennion wrote:
Geoff,
I use the Interlinear Bible by Jay P. Green with the The Strongest Strongs
Concordance. The Interlinear Bible by Green comes in two flavors; there is
a 4 volume set that doesn't have the Strong numbers in it and there is a
one
volue set that does. I had both and ended up selling the 4 volume set
because I liked having the Strongs information in the book. Both sets use
what I believe is called the literal translation of the bible, somewhat
different than the KJV.
You just have to have good eyes or a good pair of glasses to use it. While
this approach doesn't necessarily teach you the language fundamentals, it
does give you insights into the Hebrew and Greek word applications.
I have picked up an old Latin bible and a basic teach yourself Latin book
and got thoroughly annoyed because challenge of reading the old latin text
Noel
---Original Message---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 5:00:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
Hello,
Does anyone know of an accurate study Bible in the original Hebrew and
Greek? I would like to learn more about those biblical languages and I
figure that this is the way to do it. However, I am unsure of which
Bible to purchase. There are different interlinear ones, but what I am
looking for doesn't necessarily have to be interlinear.
I wouldn't mind something that included Latin or Aramaic as well. There
was such a book that one of the Church Father's put together, but the
name of it escapes me. Does something like that exist today?
Thank you for your input,
Geoff
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
${list_promo}
Re: [ZION] The veil
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:26:43 -0900 John W. Redelfs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I have heard it said that if we could
only pierce that veil we would hold each other in much higher
regard.
John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤
Truman Madsen gave a FARMS talk, The Temple and the Atonement, in which
he paraphrases Brigham Young, who said that he had two sisters approach
him once about a divorce. His reply was that if they could see their
husbands as they will be in the glorious resurrection, they would kneel
and worship them. BY said the same is true of men who think they have
fallen out of love with their wives.
What a great thing this is to ponder. I miss my dear husband terribly.
And I love him with all my heart. Just to think that that love that I
have for him will be added upon, and that our level of love and respect
will be so much higher--incomprehensible for this mortal.
val
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
/
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Re: [ZION] The veil
At 05:15 PM, Tuesday, 10/29/02, Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote: Truman Madsen gave a FARMS talk, The Temple and the Atonement, in which he paraphrases Brigham Young, who said that he had two sisters approach him once about a divorce. His reply was that if they could see their husbands as they will be in the glorious resurrection, they would kneel and worship them. BY said the same is true of men who think they have fallen out of love with their wives. I do not think it is possible to fall out of love with your wife, at least not the kind of love I think of when I use the term. True love lasts forever or it isn't true love. And if a couple have grown apart, whatever that means, then they need to grow back together again. We don't stay with our spouse only because we love them. We stay with them because we are loyal by nature. We remain true and faithful because that is how we see ourselves, as a true and faithful person. If a man cannot remain true and faithful to his wife, what makes him think he can be true and faithful to the Lord? Of course there are other kinds of love besides true love that lasts forever. There is the kind that is just for now, or as long as it is convenient, or until something comes along that I like better. But then I don't think the word love should be used so cheaply. In other word I'm still in love with the movie, Princess Bride. Farm Boy and Buttercup had it right. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === I can image a world without war, a world without fear, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.' --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] The veil
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- In other word I'm still in love with the movie, Princess Bride. Farm Boy and Buttercup had it right. --- Let me not to the marriage of true minds Admit impediments, love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds, Or bends with the remover to remove. O no, it is an ever-fixed mark That looks on tempests and is never shaken; It is the star to every wand'ring bark, Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken. Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks Within his bending sickle's compass come, Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, But bears it out even to the edge of doom: If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved. (Shakespeare Sonnets) --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
I wonder if you're talking about Tim. No need to answer that.
Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote:
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:31:22 + Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Paul Osborne wrote:
---
No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching
false
doctrine.
---
Fortunate for me--I get it wrong nearly every time, and I wouldn't
have
lasted long in this church otherwise. Tolerance is the virtual
safety
belt that lets us live with each other in our imperfections.
This is absolutely right, Jim.
This reminds me of a young man we used to have in our ward. He was
controversial to say the least. In fact, JWR will probably know about
whom I am referring. Anyway, he and his wife lived here for about 4
years while he got his PhD from ND. During this time, many times in
Gospel Doctrine, he'd say something, or contend something that could
easily be construed as false doctrine. However, our elder HP brethren
were always very gentle with this young man and would frequently pull him
off to the side after class and instruct correct principle with him. It
was really beautiful to watch.
Their last Sunday here was a Fast Sunday. I was extremely sad to see
them go. I love her like my own sister, but he was really special to
me--like a rebellious younger brother. But our ward had embraced and
loved this young man. (I'm getting choked up thinking about it now!). He
got up that last Sunday and thanked the ward for the fellowshipping he
and his family had received (they had two adorable little girls while
they lived here). He said that this was the only ward where he had been
truly accepted and loved and that this would always be home--and it was
mutual.
Then he said something that still makes me chuckle. He said, I know
I've stirred things up a lot here. I didn't mean to. You see, we are
like the blind men, feeling their way around an elephant. The gospel is
that elephant. We all see different things with our hands. Most all
of you are at the front of the elephant, and see the elephant the same
way. Me--I'm at the rear. It's the same elephant, but I have an
entirely different perspective than the mainstream. Someday I hope I
find the front too.
It was really touching. He also said he was grateful for the love and
patience he and his family felt while they were here. I cannot wait for
the day when I will see them again.
anyway
val
In fact I'm not sure we even take notice when false doctrine is
preached, unless it somehow offends the sense of one of our own
favorite
issues.
---
Mij Ebaboc
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
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[ZION] aurora borealis spotting
Okay, some people are train spotters. I'm an aurora spotter. We've had
aurorae for some time now. My wife woke me up at 04:00 one morning to
see a very unusual display. It was a greenish white swoosh across the
entire sky, with the moon right in the middle. Very neat. I've uploaded
a very nice picture of the aurora if anyone's interested. It happens to
be a digital picture, actually, but is still a spectacular picture.
http://www.geocities.com/marcschindler1/aurora.jpg
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
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