subject:"Re\: \[asterisk\-dev\] Mailing List Future"



ok dont know where all of this is comming from

not using mailman etc, just stating the facts of smtp email and esmtp 
email as per the startdards that are being applied today.


Email is very straight forward and is pretty much limited 
source<>destination. Anything trying to alter that gets


i guess at this point if i get the mail list emails great, if dont i 
will deal with it when i need to, I was just passing on practical 
experience, I wont start quoting RFC's because google and microsoft for 
example break most of them anyways.


I am just trying to give back to the community ?


Have A Happy Friday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 1/5/2024 6:58 AM, aster...@phreaknet.org wrote:


On 1/5/2024 3:58 AM, Paul Kudla wrote:


again just trying to help

when i signed up for the new mailing list

see headers below,

a few things to note, return address & from address needs to match, 
this is a common spam filter which is enabled on my email server.


No, they don't need to match. That is not how email or SMTP work. Your 
spam filter is nonsensical.
In fact, for lists the return path (MAIL FROM) SHOULD NOT match the from 
address, ever. That is how VERP works. If they did, bounces would go to 
the sender, not the list software.
mailman is ancient, that's probably why it was "fine" for you, it wasn't 
doing any of this properly. It wasn't fine for many other people, 
resulting in messages going to spam. Your setup is backwards.


Your spam filters may be effective for you but they are not in line with 
reality and it's not fair to expect the rest of the world to conform to 
these expectations.


You have no idea how many emails come in saying from "Paul Kudla 
"

This is not the full address.
If the from header uses a groups.io domain, it's because your domain has 
DMARC enabled. This is correct.
for example which my server picks up as a bad email address before 
delivery. (Because Paul Kudla is p...@scom.ca ?)


?? There's no reason you can't send mail from multiple email addresses.

Reply-to carries the same issues which is why they are ignored coming 
through the system.


Again, there is no expectation they should match. Reply-To is not a 
header that you should be checking for spam purposes. Anyone could set 
that for any reason. If you're checking it, you're on your own.
FWIW, the group owner can change Reply To to be "list AND sender" rather 
than just "list". Many lists I'm on and my own are set up this way for 
several reasons. Maybe that would help your situation?


on other notes postfix is programmed for FQDN and reverse ip looks etc 
that must match the sending smtp serve sending the emails. Sincce 
stuff is showing up that does not appear to be an issue but thought i 
should mention that.


also note i and no one else opens an entire domain like groups.io or 
any other domain(s)


it would be like allowing all email from *@gmail.com

just not practical.

scom.ca is a small provider compared to others but over 80% of my 
email server traffic is spam, hacks etc and programming is in place to 
prevent anything from wrecking a customers account (viruses, 
blacklisted ip's etc) - this is what prompted the SPAMCOP.NET issue as 
it is one for the dnsbl lookups on my postfix server. 


I also run my own mail servers, and my experience is most DNSBL's have 
lots of false positives. You have to take them with a grain of salt.
I don't use postfix anymore, but if you haven't already, there are 
simple things you can enable to deflect most spam pre-delivery, like 
pregreet detection, FcRDNS checks, tarpitting, greylisting, etc.
Past that, you should just allow it in, run a spam filter like 
SpamAssassin, and let the user deal with it. I always hated mail 
providers that thought they knew better than I did when it came to 
handling spam.


I had access to the log files so was able to track that down, but 
another question it seems if email bounces back to groups.io do you 
get a report ? - a lot of email servers like microsoft do not report 
bouncebacks thus making it hard to trace issues upon setup.


groups.io does notify the group owner when a bounce results in a 
removal. I've received one of these that I can remember in the past 
several years.


I know you are restricted by the groups.io and apparently this is a 
free account, which is why i suggested if groups.io can interface to 
an external email server or at least an external out smtp server that 
is programmed with all the correct setups (spf,dkim,ssl etc etc)


it seems you need to be in more control of the outbound email side.

inbound emails could still be received by the groups.io server on the 
mx record side ?


just a thought out load as I am not fimiliar with groups.io setup up 
until now. It seems a lot of

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-05 Thread asterisk


On 1/5/2024 3:58 AM, Paul Kudla wrote:


again just trying to help

when i signed up for the new mailing list

see headers below,

a few things to note, return address & from address needs to match, 
this is a common spam filter which is enabled on my email server.


No, they don't need to match. That is not how email or SMTP work. Your 
spam filter is nonsensical.
In fact, for lists the return path (MAIL FROM) SHOULD NOT match the from 
address, ever. That is how VERP works. If they did, bounces would go to 
the sender, not the list software.
mailman is ancient, that's probably why it was "fine" for you, it wasn't 
doing any of this properly. It wasn't fine for many other people, 
resulting in messages going to spam. Your setup is backwards.


Your spam filters may be effective for you but they are not in line with 
reality and it's not fair to expect the rest of the world to conform to 
these expectations.


You have no idea how many emails come in saying from "Paul Kudla 
"

This is not the full address.
If the from header uses a groups.io domain, it's because your domain has 
DMARC enabled. This is correct.
for example which my server picks up as a bad email address before 
delivery. (Because Paul Kudla is p...@scom.ca ?)


?? There's no reason you can't send mail from multiple email addresses.

Reply-to carries the same issues which is why they are ignored coming 
through the system.


Again, there is no expectation they should match. Reply-To is not a 
header that you should be checking for spam purposes. Anyone could set 
that for any reason. If you're checking it, you're on your own.
FWIW, the group owner can change Reply To to be "list AND sender" rather 
than just "list". Many lists I'm on and my own are set up this way for 
several reasons. Maybe that would help your situation?


on other notes postfix is programmed for FQDN and reverse ip looks etc 
that must match the sending smtp serve sending the emails. Sincce 
stuff is showing up that does not appear to be an issue but thought i 
should mention that.


also note i and no one else opens an entire domain like groups.io or 
any other domain(s)


it would be like allowing all email from *@gmail.com

just not practical.

scom.ca is a small provider compared to others but over 80% of my 
email server traffic is spam, hacks etc and programming is in place to 
prevent anything from wrecking a customers account (viruses, 
blacklisted ip's etc) - this is what prompted the SPAMCOP.NET issue as 
it is one for the dnsbl lookups on my postfix server. 


I also run my own mail servers, and my experience is most DNSBL's have 
lots of false positives. You have to take them with a grain of salt.
I don't use postfix anymore, but if you haven't already, there are 
simple things you can enable to deflect most spam pre-delivery, like 
pregreet detection, FcRDNS checks, tarpitting, greylisting, etc.
Past that, you should just allow it in, run a spam filter like 
SpamAssassin, and let the user deal with it. I always hated mail 
providers that thought they knew better than I did when it came to 
handling spam.


I had access to the log files so was able to track that down, but 
another question it seems if email bounces back to groups.io do you 
get a report ? - a lot of email servers like microsoft do not report 
bouncebacks thus making it hard to trace issues upon setup.


groups.io does notify the group owner when a bounce results in a 
removal. I've received one of these that I can remember in the past 
several years.


I know you are restricted by the groups.io and apparently this is a 
free account, which is why i suggested if groups.io can interface to 
an external email server or at least an external out smtp server that 
is programmed with all the correct setups (spf,dkim,ssl etc etc)


it seems you need to be in more control of the outbound email side.

inbound emails could still be received by the groups.io server on the 
mx record side ?


just a thought out load as I am not fimiliar with groups.io setup up 
until now. It seems a lot of assumptions are being made (aka willy 
nilly sending emails without proper formats?) because groups.io is 
doing things on your behalf.


As far as I am aware, they are doing things correctly. You simply need 
to adjust your expectations with the reality of how email works and what 
the "proper format" is. Point out something in an RFC that is being 
violated.


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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-05 Thread Paul Kudla (SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)

On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 6:48 AM Paul Kudla (SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.) <
p...@scom.ca> wrote:

>
> yes
>
> basically all email would come from @asterisk-dev.groups.io
>
> which would be more main stream and at the same time be unique to
> asterisk dev!
>

Is the test email sufficient, or not?

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future



yes

basically all email would come from @asterisk-dev.groups.io

which would be more main stream and at the same time be unique to 
asterisk dev!



Have A Happy Friday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 2024-01-05 5:38 a.m., Joshua C. Colp wrote:
On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 6:33 AM Joshua C. Colp > wrote:


On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 6:21 AM Paul Kudla mailto:p...@scom.ca>> wrote:


I think we are getting off track here,

email can come from anywhere

like mine when i send an email it comes from "Paul Kudla
mailto:p...@scom.ca>>"
which is perfectly normal, if i sent an email from :

"Paul Kudla mailto:p...@group.io>>"

that would be wrong because the email address does not exist and
would
eventually bounce on most system or more importantly get blocked in
someone's spam filter because it is unknown to the end user.

Again trying to help


the issue creeps in when a mail system tries to send with a
different
send email address then what is in the headers.

My or any other system does not block ordinary email, and the
tmda (in
my case) will trap it for approval. I can catch and kinda
approve these
but its one at a time when headers get messed with.

The issues being found here is email from for example

Asterisk Developers Mailing List mailto:asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com>>

is now show as

Asterisk Developers Mailing List mailto:asterisk-...@group.io>>

which in its self kinda correct but but group.io
 should really be a
proper domain related to asterisk like the

"mailto:asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com>"

was

fyi


Hope this clarifies, asterisk mailing list really needs to come
from an
asterisk domain (or sub domain) NOT groups.io 

can you get n asterisk.groups.io 
(like the digium one? - lists.digium.com )

this would resolve to identy issues.


Possibly? I created a subgroup which moved things to an
asterisk-dev.groups.io  subdomain,
whether that is sufficient for your purposes I do not know.


I do not believe it is sufficient based on your comments.

--
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
www.asterisk.org 


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by *MailScanner* , and is
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 6:33 AM Joshua C. Colp  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 6:21 AM Paul Kudla  wrote:
>
>>
>> I think we are getting off track here,
>>
>> email can come from anywhere
>>
>> like mine when i send an email it comes from "Paul Kudla "
>> which is perfectly normal, if i sent an email from :
>>
>> "Paul Kudla "
>>
>> that would be wrong because the email address does not exist and would
>> eventually bounce on most system or more importantly get blocked in
>> someone's spam filter because it is unknown to the end user.
>>
>> Again trying to help
>>
>>
>> the issue creeps in when a mail system tries to send with a different
>> send email address then what is in the headers.
>>
>> My or any other system does not block ordinary email, and the tmda (in
>> my case) will trap it for approval. I can catch and kinda approve these
>> but its one at a time when headers get messed with.
>>
>> The issues being found here is email from for example
>>
>> Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
>>
>> is now show as
>>
>> Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
>>
>> which in its self kinda correct but but group.io should really be a
>> proper domain related to asterisk like the
>>
>> ">
>> was
>>
>> fyi
>>
>>
>> Hope this clarifies, asterisk mailing list really needs to come from an
>> asterisk domain (or sub domain) NOT groups.io
>>
>> can you get n asterisk.groups.io
>> (like the digium one? - lists.digium.com)
>>
>> this would resolve to identy issues.
>>
>
> Possibly? I created a subgroup which moved things to an
> asterisk-dev.groups.io subdomain, whether that is sufficient for your
> purposes I do not know.
>

I do not believe it is sufficient based on your comments.

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 6:21 AM Paul Kudla  wrote:

>
> I think we are getting off track here,
>
> email can come from anywhere
>
> like mine when i send an email it comes from "Paul Kudla "
> which is perfectly normal, if i sent an email from :
>
> "Paul Kudla "
>
> that would be wrong because the email address does not exist and would
> eventually bounce on most system or more importantly get blocked in
> someone's spam filter because it is unknown to the end user.
>
> Again trying to help
>
>
> the issue creeps in when a mail system tries to send with a different
> send email address then what is in the headers.
>
> My or any other system does not block ordinary email, and the tmda (in
> my case) will trap it for approval. I can catch and kinda approve these
> but its one at a time when headers get messed with.
>
> The issues being found here is email from for example
>
> Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
>
> is now show as
>
> Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
>
> which in its self kinda correct but but group.io should really be a
> proper domain related to asterisk like the
>
> "
> was
>
> fyi
>
>
> Hope this clarifies, asterisk mailing list really needs to come from an
> asterisk domain (or sub domain) NOT groups.io
>
> can you get n asterisk.groups.io
> (like the digium one? - lists.digium.com)
>
> this would resolve to identy issues.
>

Possibly? I created a subgroup which moved things to an
asterisk-dev.groups.io subdomain, whether that is sufficient for your
purposes I do not know.

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
-- 
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future



I think we are getting off track here,

email can come from anywhere

like mine when i send an email it comes from "Paul Kudla " 
which is perfectly normal, if i sent an email from :


"Paul Kudla "

that would be wrong because the email address does not exist and would 
eventually bounce on most system or more importantly get blocked in 
someone's spam filter because it is unknown to the end user.


Again trying to help


the issue creeps in when a mail system tries to send with a different 
send email address then what is in the headers.


My or any other system does not block ordinary email, and the tmda (in 
my case) will trap it for approval. I can catch and kinda approve these 
but its one at a time when headers get messed with.


The issues being found here is email from for example

Asterisk Developers Mailing List 

is now show as

Asterisk Developers Mailing List 

which in its self kinda correct but but group.io should really be a 
proper domain related to asterisk like the


"Hope this clarifies, asterisk mailing list really needs to come from an 
asterisk domain (or sub domain) NOT groups.io


can you get n asterisk.groups.io
(like the digium one? - lists.digium.com)

this would resolve to identy issues.




Have A Happy Friday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services <http://www.scom.ca>
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 1/5/2024 4:49 AM, Henning Westerholt wrote:

Hello,

using a different reply-to address as the from address is a valid use case and 
used from other people. For example e.g. for support or sales communication.

I am participating since many years on mailing lists and never had the need to 
do filtering on a domain mail server level.

Practically speaking its necessary to accept all e-mail from *.gmail.com 
similar to office365 etc... How would one run a business otherwise? In my 
opinion its not feasible to do a filtering on domain level.

In my opinion its not appropriate for an ISP to block e-mail from domains, when 
I don't have control over it.

Cheers,

Henning


-Original Message-
From: asterisk-dev  On Behalf Of
Paul Kudla
Sent: Freitag, 5. Januar 2024 10:15
To: aster...@phreaknet.org; Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future


here's another example of the headers

Return-Path: 
Delivered-To: p...@scom.ca
Received: from ns2.scom.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by mail18.scom.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3360C31E1D5
for ; Fri,  5 Jan 2024 03:27:03 -0500 (EST)
Received-SPF: Pass (sender SPF authorized) identity=mailfrom; client-
ip=66.175.222.108; helo=mail02.groups.io; envelope-
from=bounce+123194+6+8107350+12915...@groups.io;
receiver=p...@scom.ca
Received: from mail02.groups.io (mail02.groups.io [66.175.222.108])
by mail19.scom.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D51E30253C
for ; Thu,  4 Jan 2024 08:29:33 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256;
bh=y4BuxIEsZ+nEJT8jmUWIi8SuuvrSyAgCuJ/3A0k8qhc=;
   c=relaxed/simple; d=groups.io;

h=Subject:To:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-
To:Message-ID:Precedence:List-Subscribe:List-Help:Sender:List-Id:Mailing-
List:Delivered-To:Reply-To:List-Unsubscribe-Post:List-Unsubscribe:Content-
Type;
   s=20140610; t=1704374973; v=1;

b=gFV0zZSE0niKgRyXFVPIHg4Svc2YUeefZhB8dlQ23dzZcH0RaFRA7sjVaHu5m
DFFcWTv6xGB

VAdK/KUxukNQkfbr4zyJFJi4ECdmojpenOoJ+k/N1t2JNz9Z/rifwzLrv6UzIsOp/k
bLrdMTPpt
   X3g4M81hZgnTAxLDKmAF0ZJQ=
X-Received: by 127.0.0.2 with SMTP id 6UMxYY8108685xBwiaIr8due; Thu,
04 Jan 2024 05:29:33 -0800
Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Happy new year 2024 and welcome to the mailing
list
To: asterisk-...@groups.io
From: bou...@groups.io
X-Originating-Location: Pretoria, Gauteng, ZA (165.16.202.234)
X-Originating-Platform: Linux Firefox 115
User-Agent: GROUPS.IO Web Poster
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 05:28:29 -0800
References: 
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <11912.1704374909817607...@groups.io>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Subscribe: <mailto:asterisk-dev+subscr...@groups.io>
List-Help: <mailto:asterisk-dev+h...@groups.io>
Sender: asterisk-...@groups.io
List-Id: 
Mailing-List: list asterisk-...@groups.io; contact
asterisk-dev+ow...@groups.io
Old-Delivered-To: mailing list asterisk-...@groups.io
Reply-To: asterisk-...@groups.io
List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click
List-Unsubscribe:
<https://groups.io/g/asterisk-
dev/leave/12915545/8107350/1648649566/plugh>
X-Gm-Message-State: IW5txfHJ7hxkIhBAzdvhZj1Kx8107350AA=
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MyK3xsRbdj9XTGHGzBSm"
X-SCOM-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more
information
X-SCOM-MailScanner-ID: 6D51E30253C.A9D49
X-SCOM-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-SCOM-MailScanner-From:
bounce+123194+6+8107350+12915...@groups.io
X-Spam-Status: No

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 3:57 AM Jonathan Aquilina 
wrote:

> Morning,
>
> Where does one subscribe to this new list?
>

The list is at https://groups.io/g/asterisk-dev

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-05 Thread Henning Westerholt

Hello,

using a different reply-to address as the from address is a valid use case and 
used from other people. For example e.g. for support or sales communication.

I am participating since many years on mailing lists and never had the need to 
do filtering on a domain mail server level.

Practically speaking its necessary to accept all e-mail from *.gmail.com 
similar to office365 etc... How would one run a business otherwise? In my 
opinion its not feasible to do a filtering on domain level.

In my opinion its not appropriate for an ISP to block e-mail from domains, when 
I don't have control over it.

Cheers,

Henning

> -Original Message-
> From: asterisk-dev  On Behalf Of
> Paul Kudla
> Sent: Freitag, 5. Januar 2024 10:15
> To: aster...@phreaknet.org; Asterisk Developers Mailing List  d...@lists.digium.com>
> Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future
> 
> 
> here's another example of the headers
> 
> Return-Path: 
> Delivered-To: p...@scom.ca
> Received: from ns2.scom.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1])
>   by mail18.scom.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3360C31E1D5
>   for ; Fri,  5 Jan 2024 03:27:03 -0500 (EST)
> Received-SPF: Pass (sender SPF authorized) identity=mailfrom; client-
> ip=66.175.222.108; helo=mail02.groups.io; envelope-
> from=bounce+123194+6+8107350+12915...@groups.io;
> receiver=p...@scom.ca
> Received: from mail02.groups.io (mail02.groups.io [66.175.222.108])
>   by mail19.scom.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D51E30253C
>   for ; Thu,  4 Jan 2024 08:29:33 -0500 (EST)
> DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256;
> bh=y4BuxIEsZ+nEJT8jmUWIi8SuuvrSyAgCuJ/3A0k8qhc=;
>   c=relaxed/simple; d=groups.io;
> 
> h=Subject:To:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-
> To:Message-ID:Precedence:List-Subscribe:List-Help:Sender:List-Id:Mailing-
> List:Delivered-To:Reply-To:List-Unsubscribe-Post:List-Unsubscribe:Content-
> Type;
>   s=20140610; t=1704374973; v=1;
> 
> b=gFV0zZSE0niKgRyXFVPIHg4Svc2YUeefZhB8dlQ23dzZcH0RaFRA7sjVaHu5m
> DFFcWTv6xGB
> 
> VAdK/KUxukNQkfbr4zyJFJi4ECdmojpenOoJ+k/N1t2JNz9Z/rifwzLrv6UzIsOp/k
> bLrdMTPpt
>   X3g4M81hZgnTAxLDKmAF0ZJQ=
> X-Received: by 127.0.0.2 with SMTP id 6UMxYY8108685xBwiaIr8due; Thu,
> 04 Jan 2024 05:29:33 -0800
> Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Happy new year 2024 and welcome to the mailing
> list
> To: asterisk-...@groups.io
> From: bou...@groups.io
> X-Originating-Location: Pretoria, Gauteng, ZA (165.16.202.234)
> X-Originating-Platform: Linux Firefox 115
> User-Agent: GROUPS.IO Web Poster
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 05:28:29 -0800
> References: 
> In-Reply-To: 
> Message-ID: <11912.1704374909817607...@groups.io>
> Precedence: Bulk
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:asterisk-dev+subscr...@groups.io>
> List-Help: <mailto:asterisk-dev+h...@groups.io>
> Sender: asterisk-...@groups.io
> List-Id: 
> Mailing-List: list asterisk-...@groups.io; contact
> asterisk-dev+ow...@groups.io
> Old-Delivered-To: mailing list asterisk-...@groups.io
> Reply-To: asterisk-...@groups.io
> List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click
> List-Unsubscribe:
> <https://groups.io/g/asterisk-
> dev/leave/12915545/8107350/1648649566/plugh>
> X-Gm-Message-State: IW5txfHJ7hxkIhBAzdvhZj1Kx8107350AA=
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MyK3xsRbdj9XTGHGzBSm"
> X-SCOM-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more
> information
> X-SCOM-MailScanner-ID: 6D51E30253C.A9D49
> X-SCOM-MailScanner: Found to be clean
> X-SCOM-MailScanner-From:
> bounce+123194+6+8107350+12915...@groups.io
> X-Spam-Status: No
> X-TMDA-Confirm-Done: 1704375007.41110.adcb74
> X-TMDA-Released: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 03:27:02 -0500
> X-TMDA-CGI: 10.0.0.5 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64;
> rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0)
> 
> 
> --MyK3xsRbdj9XTGHGzBSm
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> Time to get in on the action ... would appreciate some form of reply to thi=
> s to see what happens at mail-system level too.
> 
> 
> Have A Happy Friday !!!
> 
> Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)
> 
> 
> Scom.ca Internet Services <http://www.scom.ca>
> 004-1009 Byron Street South
> Whitby, Ontario - Canada
> L1N 4S3
> 
> Toronto 416.642.7266
> Main 1.866.411.7266
> Fax 1.888.892.7266
> Email p...@scom.ca
> 
> On 1/4/2024 9:06 AM, aster...@phreaknet.org wrote:
> >
> > Could you point out a specific message where this is the case?
> > I just looked at a few messages and I don't see bou...@groups.io anywhere.
> > The MAIL FROM address used in the SMTP transaction is a VERP-style
> > address, unique for e

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future



here's another example of the headers

Return-Path: 
Delivered-To: p...@scom.ca
Received: from ns2.scom.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by mail18.scom.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3360C31E1D5
for ; Fri,  5 Jan 2024 03:27:03 -0500 (EST)
Received-SPF: Pass (sender SPF authorized) identity=mailfrom; 
client-ip=66.175.222.108; helo=mail02.groups.io; 
envelope-from=bounce+123194+6+8107350+12915...@groups.io; 
receiver=p...@scom.ca

Received: from mail02.groups.io (mail02.groups.io [66.175.222.108])
by mail19.scom.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D51E30253C
for ; Thu,  4 Jan 2024 08:29:33 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; 
bh=y4BuxIEsZ+nEJT8jmUWIi8SuuvrSyAgCuJ/3A0k8qhc=;

 c=relaxed/simple; d=groups.io;

h=Subject:To:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Precedence:List-Subscribe:List-Help:Sender:List-Id:Mailing-List:Delivered-To:Reply-To:List-Unsubscribe-Post:List-Unsubscribe:Content-Type;
 s=20140610; t=1704374973; v=1;
 b=gFV0zZSE0niKgRyXFVPIHg4Svc2YUeefZhB8dlQ23dzZcH0RaFRA7sjVaHu5mDFFcWTv6xGB

VAdK/KUxukNQkfbr4zyJFJi4ECdmojpenOoJ+k/N1t2JNz9Z/rifwzLrv6UzIsOp/kbLrdMTPpt
 X3g4M81hZgnTAxLDKmAF0ZJQ=
X-Received: by 127.0.0.2 with SMTP id 6UMxYY8108685xBwiaIr8due; Thu, 04 
Jan 2024 05:29:33 -0800
Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Happy new year 2024 and welcome to the 
mailing list

To: asterisk-...@groups.io
From: bou...@groups.io
X-Originating-Location: Pretoria, Gauteng, ZA (165.16.202.234)
X-Originating-Platform: Linux Firefox 115
User-Agent: GROUPS.IO Web Poster
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 05:28:29 -0800
References: 
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <11912.1704374909817607...@groups.io>
Precedence: Bulk
List-Subscribe: 
List-Help: 
Sender: asterisk-...@groups.io
List-Id: 
Mailing-List: list asterisk-...@groups.io; contact 
asterisk-dev+ow...@groups.io

Old-Delivered-To: mailing list asterisk-...@groups.io
Reply-To: asterisk-...@groups.io
List-Unsubscribe-Post: List-Unsubscribe=One-Click
List-Unsubscribe: 


X-Gm-Message-State: IW5txfHJ7hxkIhBAzdvhZj1Kx8107350AA=
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MyK3xsRbdj9XTGHGzBSm"
X-SCOM-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information
X-SCOM-MailScanner-ID: 6D51E30253C.A9D49
X-SCOM-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-SCOM-MailScanner-From: bounce+123194+6+8107350+12915...@groups.io
X-Spam-Status: No
X-TMDA-Confirm-Done: 1704375007.41110.adcb74
X-TMDA-Released: Fri, 05 Jan 2024 03:27:02 -0500
X-TMDA-CGI: 10.0.0.5 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; 
rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0)



--MyK3xsRbdj9XTGHGzBSm
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Time to get in on the action ... would appreciate some form of reply to thi=
s to see what happens at mail-system level too.


Have A Happy Friday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 1/4/2024 9:06 AM, aster...@phreaknet.org wrote:


Could you point out a specific message where this is the case?
I just looked at a few messages and I don't see bou...@groups.io anywhere.
The MAIL FROM address used in the SMTP transaction is a VERP-style 
address, unique for every recipient on a list. This way if there is a 
bounce, groups.io knows who bounced and can automatically unsubscribe 
them, without reading the bounce message at all.

Even the confirmation email I got uses a VERP-style address.

The From headers are sometimes manipulated as you may have noticed, as 
when domains are configured with a DMARC policy, groups.io will rewrite 
the From header so it still looks almost the same but is using their 
domain.
The old list did not do this, so to Josh's point about mailing list 
messages frequently going to spam, that may have been due to DMARC, and 
so deliverability might increase with the new list since it's handling 
it properly.


There is a List-Id header that contains the address of the mailing list. 
Perhaps you can use that in your filtering?
If you're really an ISP though, you should be allowing all groups.io 
stuff to go through since there are a huge number of other lists there.


On 1/4/2024 5:52 AM, Paul Kudla (SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.) wrote:


Good morning

I got verified however the new mailing list is using

Asterisk Development Team via groups.io 

note the bou...@groups.io

should really be an asterisk email address

if i open up groups.io (like msvc etc) then spam will flow

i am an isp and apologise for the comments knowing you are doing you 
best, just letting you know some difficulties before they become a 
large scale issue



Have A Happy Thursday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread Paul Kudla (SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)



again just trying to help

when i signed up for the new mailing list

see headers below,

a few things to note, return address & from address needs to match, this 
is a common spam filter which is enabled on my email server.


You have no idea how many emails come in saying from "Paul Kudla 
" for example which my server picks up as a bad email address 
before delivery. (Because Paul Kudla is p...@scom.ca ?)


Reply-to carries the same issues which is why they are ignored coming 
through the system.


on other notes postfix is programmed for FQDN and reverse ip looks etc 
that must match the sending smtp serve sending the emails. Sincce stuff 
is showing up that does not appear to be an issue but thought i should 
mention that.


also note i and no one else opens an entire domain like groups.io or any 
other domain(s)


it would be like allowing all email from *@gmail.com

just not practical.

scom.ca is a small provider compared to others but over 80% of my email 
server traffic is spam, hacks etc and programming is in place to prevent 
anything from wrecking a customers account (viruses, blacklisted ip's 
etc) - this is what prompted the SPAMCOP.NET issue as it is one for the 
dnsbl lookups on my postfix server. I had access to the log files so was 
able to track that down, but another question it seems if email bounces 
back to groups.io do you get a report ? - a lot of email servers like 
microsoft do not report bouncebacks thus making it hard to trace issues 
upon setup.


I know you are restricted by the groups.io and apparently this is a free 
account, which is why i suggested if groups.io can interface to an 
external email server or at least an external out smtp server that is 
programmed with all the correct setups (spf,dkim,ssl etc etc)


it seems you need to be in more control of the outbound email side.

inbound emails could still be received by the groups.io server on the mx 
record side ?


just a thought out load as I am not fimiliar with groups.io setup up 
until now. It seems a lot of assumptions are being made (aka willy nilly 
sending emails without proper formats?) because groups.io is doing 
things on your behalf.



Return-Path: 
Delivered-To: p...@scom.ca
Received: from mail18.scom.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by mail18.scom.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B773308F7
for ; Wed,  3 Jan 2024 02:13:33 -0500 (EST)
Received-SPF: Pass (sender SPF authorized) identity=mailfrom; 
client-ip=66.175.222.12; helo=mail01.groups.io; 
envelope-from=confirmbounce+8107350+4201506166695547...@groups.io; 
receiver=p...@scom.ca

Received: from mail01.groups.io (web01.groups.io [66.175.222.12])
by mail19.scom.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 013452F6DF9
for ; Tue,  2 Jan 2024 09:35:50 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; 
bh=2L8kigt5JlfFeasByEEfmpZEBvHgEpI5D0C/6Dtxwms=;

 c=relaxed/simple; d=groups.io;

h=From:To:Reply-To:Subject:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Precedence:Content-Type;
 s=20140610; t=1704206151; v=1;
 b=H37esqpfH2WJ7IbV3AaYjdY2YLm58eBwUDG8rVasNWR4MD3pv0IpRALutqCv/sA/rqVIdeGh

QUjXyJR+AsDXYI8xdS6lzmHT4/8uGE671pm/fvh8DOGdaMQgCTjGfNLRT2qxqGpZskq4q/4/0Vc
 t9mPEUguroQyf6iz/EBrgO1U=
From: "Groups.io Notification" 
To: p...@scom.ca
Reply-To: "Groups.io" 
Subject: [asterisk-dev] Confirm your p...@scom.ca email address
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2024 02:35:51 -0800
Message-ID: <0xtb.1704191751905265532.l...@groups.io>
Precedence: Bulk
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="xZWc9K0oFmhWfFZXJjTn"
X-SCOM-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information
X-SCOM-MailScanner-ID: 013452F6DF9.A9F4D
X-SCOM-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-SCOM-MailScanner-From: confirmbounce+8107350+4201506166695547...@groups.io
X-Spam-Status: No
X-TMDA-Confirm-Done: 1704206180.77180.0d6479
X-TMDA-Released: Wed, 03 Jan 2024 02:13:32 -0500
X-TMDA-CGI: 10.0.0.5 (Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; 
rv:109.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/115.0)



--xZWc9K0oFmhWfFZXJjTn
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

Thank you for your interest in the https://groups.io/g/asterisk-dev group a=
t Groups.io. If you did not request or do not want to join asterisk-dev@gro=
ups.io, please ignore this message.

_


Have A Happy Friday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 1/4/2024 9:06 AM, aster...@phreaknet.org wrote:


Could you point out a specific message where this is the case?
I just looked at a few messages and I don't see bou...@groups.io anywhere.
The MAIL FROM address used in the SMTP transaction is a VERP-style 
address, unique for every recipient on a list.

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread Jonathan Aquilina

Morning,

Where does one subscribe to this new list?

Regards,
Jonathan Aquilina


-Original Message-
From: asterisk-dev  On Behalf Of Henning 
Westerholt
Sent: 05 January 2024 08:55
To: Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

Hello,

thanks, Joshua, for setting up the new list, it was really easy to subscribe, 
no issues.

It seems to be more successful in getting through the spam filter at least in 
my experiences.

About the from header, nowadays you usually need to set the From to the mailing 
list address, otherwise google and other will reject the email because of 
DMARC. We have been through the same issues recently on kamailio mailing lists 
for example.

The groups.io was chosen probably because it's not necessary to maintain an own 
mail server anymore. You can (even in outlook) create a mail filter with a few 
clicks on the sender address or some other header parts.

Regarding the SPF issues mentioned from Paul, if there is an error in their SPF 
record it should be probably addressed to the groups.io guys. From a first look 
it seems to include the sender IPs: 
https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=spf%3agroups.io=toolpage

Here is an extract from mail headers for a new list message which clearly shows 
the correct IP (included in the SPF record) and also DMARC pass from an O365 
account:

Authentication-Results: spf=pass (sender IP is 66.175.222.108)  
smtp.mailfrom=groups.io; dkim=pass (signature was verified)  
header.d=groups.io;dmarc=bestguesspass action=none  
header.from=groups.io;compauth=pass reason=109
Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of groups.io designates
 66.175.222.108 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com;  
client-ip=66.175.222.108; helo=mail02.groups.io; pr=C
Received: from mail02.groups.io (66.175.222.108) by  
AMS1EPF0041.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.167.16.38) with Microsoft  SMTP 
Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id
 15.20.7159.9 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 4 Jan 2024 13:29:35 +
DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; bh=TlCBy1aFBIBg3CEsdRMY19Y//1l4cNiTTHVF0l8wrOw=;
 c=relaxed/simple; d=groups.io;

So maybe you can elaborate what you think the issue is with the SPF and/or 
DMARC from group.io.

Cheers,

Henning

> -Original Message-
> From: asterisk-dev  On Behalf 
> Of Paul Kudla
> Sent: Freitag, 5. Januar 2024 08:18
> To: asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com
> Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future
> 
> 
> Again sorry to be a pain
> 
> I am an ISP and see stuff like this all day long
> 
> people are not going to read email headers etc etc etc
> 
> email is very simplistic
> 
> the from address (not the reply address) needs to reflect the sender 
> and nothing else.
> 
> mscv, sendgrid etc are perfect email list companies that show as spam 
> because they play with the from address in the headers, not to mention 
> microsoft exchange adding a great big long string in the from address 
> to aid in message bounce backs, also the dkim signature is also based 
> on the from domain etc which is why those are bouncing?
> 
> take google for example
> 
> they want an spf record or dkim record now a days or it is spam and 
> will probably reject (see example below)
> 
> I went through this with a customer in december
> 
> again know this is techy but just trying to help.
> 
> we are a few days in and hitting all the basic email issues.
> 
> can groups.io (the new wiki system) be configured to interface to a 
> external email server (inbound and out?) - might be easier ?
> 
> ___
> __
> 
> mail18   12-23 17:40:43 {postfix.out}[30103] (1860520863) Dec 23
> 17:40:43 mail18 postfix/smtp[30103]: 44FEC315F6F:
> to=, relay=alt1
> 
> .gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[142.250.128.27]:25, delay=2172, 
> delays=2171/0.03/0.96/0.21, dsn=4.0.0,
> 
> status=deferred (host alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[142.250.128.27]
> said: 450-5.7.26 This mail has been
> 
> blocked because the sender is unauthenticated. 450-5.7.26 Gmail 
> requires all senders to authenticate with
> 
> either SPF or DKIM. 450-5.7.26  450-5.7.26  Authentication results:
> 450-5.7.26  DKIM = did not pass
> 
> 450-5.7.26  SPF [diamond-cladpower.com] with ip: [65.39.148.18] = did 
> not pass 450-5.7.26  450-5.7.26  For
> 
> instructions on setting up authentication, go to 450 5.7.26
> 
> https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#authentication
> 
> dp35-20020a0566381ca300b0046ce28c905esi2970974jab.17 - gsmtp (in reply 
> to end of DATA command))
> 
> ___
> __
> 
> 
> groups.io does have an spf record but also seems to be attached to zend

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread Henning Westerholt

Hello,

thanks, Joshua, for setting up the new list, it was really easy to subscribe, 
no issues.

It seems to be more successful in getting through the spam filter at least in 
my experiences.

About the from header, nowadays you usually need to set the From to the mailing 
list address, otherwise google and other will reject the email because of 
DMARC. We have been through the same issues recently on kamailio mailing lists 
for example.

The groups.io was chosen probably because it's not necessary to maintain an own 
mail server anymore. You can (even in outlook) create a mail filter with a few 
clicks on the sender address or some other header parts.

Regarding the SPF issues mentioned from Paul, if there is an error in their SPF 
record it should be probably addressed to the groups.io guys. From a first look 
it seems to include the sender IPs: 
https://mxtoolbox.com/SuperTool.aspx?action=spf%3agroups.io=toolpage

Here is an extract from mail headers for a new list message which clearly shows 
the correct IP (included in the SPF record) and also DMARC pass from an O365 
account:

Authentication-Results: spf=pass (sender IP is 66.175.222.108)
 smtp.mailfrom=groups.io; dkim=pass (signature was verified)
 header.d=groups.io;dmarc=bestguesspass action=none
 header.from=groups.io;compauth=pass reason=109
Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of groups.io designates
 66.175.222.108 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com;
 client-ip=66.175.222.108; helo=mail02.groups.io; pr=C
Received: from mail02.groups.io (66.175.222.108) by
 AMS1EPF0041.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.167.16.38) with Microsoft
 SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id
 15.20.7159.9 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 4 Jan 2024 13:29:35 +
DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha256; bh=TlCBy1aFBIBg3CEsdRMY19Y//1l4cNiTTHVF0l8wrOw=;
 c=relaxed/simple; d=groups.io;

So maybe you can elaborate what you think the issue is with the SPF and/or 
DMARC from group.io.

Cheers,

Henning

> -Original Message-
> From: asterisk-dev  On Behalf Of
> Paul Kudla
> Sent: Freitag, 5. Januar 2024 08:18
> To: asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com
> Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future
> 
> 
> Again sorry to be a pain
> 
> I am an ISP and see stuff like this all day long
> 
> people are not going to read email headers etc etc etc
> 
> email is very simplistic
> 
> the from address (not the reply address) needs to reflect the sender and
> nothing else.
> 
> mscv, sendgrid etc are perfect email list companies that show as spam because
> they play with the from address in the headers, not to mention microsoft
> exchange adding a great big long string in the from address to aid in message
> bounce backs, also the dkim signature is also based on the from domain etc
> which is why those are bouncing?
> 
> take google for example
> 
> they want an spf record or dkim record now a days or it is spam and will
> probably reject (see example below)
> 
> I went through this with a customer in december
> 
> again know this is techy but just trying to help.
> 
> we are a few days in and hitting all the basic email issues.
> 
> can groups.io (the new wiki system) be configured to interface to a external
> email server (inbound and out?) - might be easier ?
> 
> ___
> __
> 
> mail18   12-23 17:40:43 {postfix.out}[30103] (1860520863) Dec 23
> 17:40:43 mail18 postfix/smtp[30103]: 44FEC315F6F:
> to=, relay=alt1
> 
> .gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[142.250.128.27]:25, delay=2172,
> delays=2171/0.03/0.96/0.21, dsn=4.0.0,
> 
> status=deferred (host alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[142.250.128.27]
> said: 450-5.7.26 This mail has been
> 
> blocked because the sender is unauthenticated. 450-5.7.26 Gmail requires all
> senders to authenticate with
> 
> either SPF or DKIM. 450-5.7.26  450-5.7.26  Authentication results:
> 450-5.7.26  DKIM = did not pass
> 
> 450-5.7.26  SPF [diamond-cladpower.com] with ip: [65.39.148.18] = did not
> pass 450-5.7.26  450-5.7.26  For
> 
> instructions on setting up authentication, go to 450 5.7.26
> 
> https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#authentication
> 
> dp35-20020a0566381ca300b0046ce28c905esi2970974jab.17 - gsmtp (in
> reply to end of DATA command))
> 
> ___
> __
> 
> 
> groups.io does have an spf record but also seems to be attached to zendesk ??
> 
> # dig txt groups.io
> 
> ; <<>> DiG 9.16.12 <<>> txt groups.io
> ;; global options: +cmd
> ;; Got answer:
> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 29021 ;; flags: qr rd ra;
> QUERY: 1

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread Paul Kudla



Again sorry to be a pain

I am an ISP and see stuff like this all day long

people are not going to read email headers etc etc etc

email is very simplistic

the from address (not the reply address) needs to reflect the sender and 
nothing else.


mscv, sendgrid etc are perfect email list companies that show as spam 
because they play with the from address in the headers, not to mention 
microsoft exchange adding a great big long string in the from address to 
aid in message bounce backs, also the dkim signature is also based on 
the from domain etc which is why those are bouncing?


take google for example

they want an spf record or dkim record now a days or it is spam and will 
probably reject (see example below)


I went through this with a customer in december

again know this is techy but just trying to help.

we are a few days in and hitting all the basic email issues.

can groups.io (the new wiki system) be configured to interface to a 
external email server (inbound and out?) - might be easier ?


_

mail18   12-23 17:40:43 {postfix.out}[30103] (1860520863) Dec 23 
17:40:43 mail18 postfix/smtp[30103]: 44FEC315F6F: 
to=, relay=alt1


.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[142.250.128.27]:25, delay=2172, 
delays=2171/0.03/0.96/0.21, dsn=4.0.0,


status=deferred (host alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[142.250.128.27] 
said: 450-5.7.26 This mail has been


blocked because the sender is unauthenticated. 450-5.7.26 Gmail requires 
all senders to authenticate with


either SPF or DKIM. 450-5.7.26  450-5.7.26  Authentication results: 
450-5.7.26  DKIM = did not pass


450-5.7.26  SPF [diamond-cladpower.com] with ip: [65.39.148.18] = did 
not pass 450-5.7.26  450-5.7.26  For


instructions on setting up authentication, go to 450 5.7.26

https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#authentication

dp35-20020a0566381ca300b0046ce28c905esi2970974jab.17 - gsmtp (in reply 
to end of DATA command))


_


groups.io does have an spf record but also seems to be attached to 
zendesk ??


# dig txt groups.io

; <<>> DiG 9.16.12 <<>> txt groups.io
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 29021
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1

;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION:
; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 512
;; QUESTION SECTION:
;groups.io. IN  TXT

;; ANSWER SECTION:
groups.io.  397 IN  TXT 
"google-site-verification=cIdgZ-hBu3RiSGae0xG2qUDmQY5hS3dsg6qUGxAZjaE"
groups.io.  397 IN  TXT "v=spf1 
ip4:66.175.222.12 ip4:66.175.222.108 ip4:45.79.227.220 ip4:45.79.224.9 
ip4:45.79.224.7 ip4:192.53.124.123 ip4:173.255.243.56 ip4:192.53.124.254 
include:mail.zendesk.com include:smtp.zendesk.com ~all"


;; Query time: 18 msec
;; SERVER: 8.8.8.8#53(8.8.8.8)
;; WHEN: Fri Jan 05 02:08:59 EST 2024
;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 337





Have A Happy Friday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 1/4/2024 10:04 AM, Jaco Kroon wrote:

Hi,

Just looking into this in more detail:

Return-path:

So yea, that's VERP based.

From: "Joshua Colp via groups.io"

And that's a very basic form of SRS ...

And these headers are present too:

List-Subscribe:
List-Help:
Sender:asterisk-...@groups.io
List-Id: 


So yea ... for filtering properly you need to handle groups.io specially.  It's 
a pain but perfectly do-able.

Kind regards,
Jaco

On 2024/01/04 14:34, Joshua C. Colp wrote:

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 8:28 AM Paul Kudla  wrote:


ok

i will post examples if/when this happens then for better
clarificastion
unless groups.io  is uniqe to asterisk ?

being an isp mailing lists / open systems are the first to get
hacked !


The groups.io  platform is not unique to Asterisk, 
there are numerous groups hosted on it. Directly adding members to 
groups requires a paying plan, otherwise adding an email address 
requires someone signing up themselves.


--
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
www.asterisk.org 




--
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread Jaco Kroon


Hi,

Just looking into this in more detail:

Return-path:

So yea, that's VERP based.

From: "Joshua Colp via groups.io"

And that's a very basic form of SRS ...

And these headers are present too:

List-Subscribe:
List-Help:
Sender:asterisk-...@groups.io
List-Id: 


So yea ... for filtering properly you need to handle groups.io specially.  It's 
a pain but perfectly do-able.

Kind regards,
Jaco

On 2024/01/04 14:34, Joshua C. Colp wrote:

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 8:28 AM Paul Kudla  wrote:


ok

i will post examples if/when this happens then for better
clarificastion
unless groups.io  is uniqe to asterisk ?

being an isp mailing lists / open systems are the first to get
hacked !


The groups.io  platform is not unique to Asterisk, 
there are numerous groups hosted on it. Directly adding members to 
groups requires a paying plan, otherwise adding an email address 
requires someone signing up themselves.


--
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
www.asterisk.org 
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread asterisk


Could you point out a specific message where this is the case?
I just looked at a few messages and I don't see bou...@groups.io anywhere.
The MAIL FROM address used in the SMTP transaction is a VERP-style 
address, unique for every recipient on a list. This way if there is a 
bounce, groups.io knows who bounced and can automatically unsubscribe 
them, without reading the bounce message at all.

Even the confirmation email I got uses a VERP-style address.

The From headers are sometimes manipulated as you may have noticed, as 
when domains are configured with a DMARC policy, groups.io will rewrite 
the From header so it still looks almost the same but is using their domain.
The old list did not do this, so to Josh's point about mailing list 
messages frequently going to spam, that may have been due to DMARC, and 
so deliverability might increase with the new list since it's handling 
it properly.


There is a List-Id header that contains the address of the mailing list. 
Perhaps you can use that in your filtering?
If you're really an ISP though, you should be allowing all groups.io 
stuff to go through since there are a huge number of other lists there.


On 1/4/2024 5:52 AM, Paul Kudla (SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.) wrote:


Good morning

I got verified however the new mailing list is using

Asterisk Development Team via groups.io 

note the bou...@groups.io

should really be an asterisk email address

if i open up groups.io (like msvc etc) then spam will flow

i am an isp and apologise for the comments knowing you are doing you 
best, just letting you know some difficulties before they become a 
large scale issue



Have A Happy Thursday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 2024-01-02 8:55 a.m., asterisk-dev-boun...@lists.digium.com wrote:

On 1/2/2024 5:55 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 6:41 AM Paul Kudla > wrote:



    Good morning

    Note I am unable to confirm my new email on the group because the
    email
    is using a blocked server ??

    mail19       01-02 05:35:51 {postfix.in }
     [63603] (1871410360) Jan 02
    05:35:51 mail19 postfix/smtpd[63603]: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from

    web01.groups.io [66.175.222.12]: 454 4.7.1
    Service unavailable; Client
    host [66.175.222.12] blocked using

    bl.spamcop.net ; Blocked - see
    https://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?66.175.222.12;

from=mailto:confirmbounce%2b8107350%2b4201506166695547...@groups.io>>
    to=mailto:p...@scom.ca>> proto=ESMTP

    helo=http://mail01.groups.io>>

    I did get the signup and also set my password but am unable to
    proceed.

    SPAMCOP.NET  is super flexible (ie will track
    and update bad ip's on the
    fly within 24 hours, so to land on this list means a server has 
been

    very very bad.

    let me know if i can help further.


I don't think either of us can really help. Looking at groups.io 
 posts this appears to happen sometimes, be it as 
a remaining result of a Yahoo migration that occurred in the past or 
from group admins adding email addresses for SpamCop spam traps in 
some capacity.


InterLinked: You previously stated that most lists you've been on 
migrated to groups.io , has this been a problem 
for them and if so how did they approach it (if at all)?


I have to be on at least 2 or 3 dozen groups.io lists at this point 
and I've not really seen this be much of a problem. It haven't seen 
it on any of my lists with 100+ members or really heard about it on 
other lists. Occasionally, maybe a couple times a year, there are 
*bounces* and I know groups.io will auto unsubscribe users if it gets 
bounces to comply with email subscription policies and what not. I 
don't have any specific experience with SpamCop, that isn't a service 
I use on my mail servers.


I think this is going to be inevitable to some extent with any hosted 
mailing list. groups.io has a pool of IPs that they use but obviously 
they are shared between lists. Digium has been self-hosting lists so 
it hasn't had to worry about this in the past.


groups.io also has an online portal where you can register and manage 
groups, but that probably entails receiving an email at some point so 
you might run into the same issue there if you can't receive email.


Can you add the sender to your "safe senders" lists? IMO email 
services that don't allow the spam rules to be overridden are 
fundamentally flawed, but I realize you may not have control over 
that or be able to switch services.


It probably doesn't hurt to get in touch with the guy that runs 
groups.io, here: https://groups.io/helpcenter. I and others have 
reached out before for things

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread Joshua C. Colp

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 8:28 AM Paul Kudla  wrote:

>
> ok
>
> i will post examples if/when this happens then for better clarificastion
> unless groups.io is uniqe to asterisk ?
>
> being an isp mailing lists / open systems are the first to get hacked !
>

The groups.io platform is not unique to Asterisk, there are numerous groups
hosted on it. Directly adding members to groups requires a paying plan,
otherwise adding an email address requires someone signing up themselves.

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread Paul Kudla



ok

i will post examples if/when this happens then for better clarificastion 
unless groups.io is uniqe to asterisk ?


being an isp mailing lists / open systems are the first to get hacked !


Have A Happy Thursday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 1/4/2024 7:21 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 8:07 AM Paul Kudla > wrote:



because the sender address (what a spam filter or in my case tmda would
use)

is : bou...@groups.io 

which is a universal email sending address from groups.io
 (ie their mail
system)

currently you are using : asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com


which is unique to Asterisk.


Okay, so you are saying that theoretically because it is a shared domain 
name someone could theoretically receive spam from that domain name in 
the future causing a deliverability issue for them for the new 
asterisk-dev mailing list? I don't foresee that being an issue but if it 
becomes one then I will investigate.


--
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
www.asterisk.org 


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread Joshua C. Colp

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 8:07 AM Paul Kudla  wrote:

>
> because the sender address (what a spam filter or in my case tmda would
> use)
>
> is : bou...@groups.io
>
> which is a universal email sending address from groups.io (ie their mail
> system)
>
> currently you are using : asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com
>
> which is unique to Asterisk.
>

Okay, so you are saying that theoretically because it is a shared domain
name someone could theoretically receive spam from that domain name in the
future causing a deliverability issue for them for the new asterisk-dev
mailing list? I don't foresee that being an issue but if it becomes one
then I will investigate.

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread Paul Kudla



because the sender address (what a spam filter or in my case tmda would 
use)


is : bou...@groups.io

which is a universal email sending address from groups.io (ie their mail 
system)


currently you are using : asterisk-dev@lists.digium.com

which is unique to Asterisk.




Have A Happy Thursday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 1/4/2024 6:31 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 6:52 AM Paul Kudla (SCOM.CA  
Internet Services Inc.) mailto:p...@scom.ca>> wrote:



Good morning

I got verified however the new mailing list is using

Asterisk Development Team via groups.io 
mailto:bou...@groups.io>>

note the bou...@groups.io 

should really be an asterisk email address

if i open up groups.io  (like msvc etc) then spam
will flow

i am an isp and apologise for the comments knowing you are doing you
best, just letting you know some difficulties before they become a
large
scale issue


Why would spam flow exactly?

--
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
www.asterisk.org 


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by *MailScanner* , and is
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-04 Thread Joshua C. Colp

On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 6:52 AM Paul Kudla (SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.) <
p...@scom.ca> wrote:

>
> Good morning
>
> I got verified however the new mailing list is using
>
> Asterisk Development Team via groups.io 
>
> note the bou...@groups.io
>
> should really be an asterisk email address
>
> if i open up groups.io (like msvc etc) then spam will flow
>
> i am an isp and apologise for the comments knowing you are doing you
> best, just letting you know some difficulties before they become a large
> scale issue
>

Why would spam flow exactly?

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
-- 
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future



Good morning

I got verified however the new mailing list is using

Asterisk Development Team via groups.io 

note the bou...@groups.io

should really be an asterisk email address

if i open up groups.io (like msvc etc) then spam will flow

i am an isp and apologise for the comments knowing you are doing you 
best, just letting you know some difficulties before they become a large 
scale issue



Have A Happy Thursday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 2024-01-02 8:55 a.m., asterisk-dev-boun...@lists.digium.com wrote:

On 1/2/2024 5:55 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 6:41 AM Paul Kudla > wrote:



    Good morning

    Note I am unable to confirm my new email on the group because the
    email
    is using a blocked server ??

    mail19       01-02 05:35:51 {postfix.in }
     [63603] (1871410360) Jan 02
    05:35:51 mail19 postfix/smtpd[63603]: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from

    web01.groups.io [66.175.222.12]: 454 4.7.1
    Service unavailable; Client
    host [66.175.222.12] blocked using

    bl.spamcop.net ; Blocked - see
    https://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?66.175.222.12;

    from=mailto:confirmbounce%2b8107350%2b4201506166695547...@groups.io>>
    to=mailto:p...@scom.ca>> proto=ESMTP

    helo=http://mail01.groups.io>>

    I did get the signup and also set my password but am unable to
    proceed.

    SPAMCOP.NET  is super flexible (ie will track
    and update bad ip's on the
    fly within 24 hours, so to land on this list means a server has been
    very very bad.

    let me know if i can help further.


I don't think either of us can really help. Looking at groups.io 
 posts this appears to happen sometimes, be it as a 
remaining result of a Yahoo migration that occurred in the past or 
from group admins adding email addresses for SpamCop spam traps in 
some capacity.


InterLinked: You previously stated that most lists you've been on 
migrated to groups.io , has this been a problem for 
them and if so how did they approach it (if at all)?


I have to be on at least 2 or 3 dozen groups.io lists at this point and 
I've not really seen this be much of a problem. It haven't seen it on 
any of my lists with 100+ members or really heard about it on other 
lists. Occasionally, maybe a couple times a year, there are *bounces* 
and I know groups.io will auto unsubscribe users if it gets bounces to 
comply with email subscription policies and what not. I don't have any 
specific experience with SpamCop, that isn't a service I use on my mail 
servers.


I think this is going to be inevitable to some extent with any hosted 
mailing list. groups.io has a pool of IPs that they use but obviously 
they are shared between lists. Digium has been self-hosting lists so it 
hasn't had to worry about this in the past.


groups.io also has an online portal where you can register and manage 
groups, but that probably entails receiving an email at some point so 
you might run into the same issue there if you can't receive email.


Can you add the sender to your "safe senders" lists? IMO email services 
that don't allow the spam rules to be overridden are fundamentally 
flawed, but I realize you may not have control over that or be able to 
switch services.


It probably doesn't hurt to get in touch with the guy that runs 
groups.io, here: https://groups.io/helpcenter. I and others have reached 
out before for things and he's helpful and responsive.




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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-02 Thread Luke Escudé

Personally, I’m surprised mailing lists are still a thing - it feels so “90s” 
to have an obnoxiously difficult-to-keep-track-of way of communicating when 
forums are so much more organized and readily available.

It looks like groups.io can work like a forum, so this is a welcome change away 
from ancient tech.



Luke Escudé

PrimeVOX Communications
972.600.1150
www.primevox.net

On Jan 2, 2024, at 08:56, aster...@phreaknet.org wrote:

On 1/2/2024 5:55 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 6:41 AM Paul Kudla mailto:p...@scom.ca>> 
wrote:


   Good morning

   Note I am unable to confirm my new email on the group because the
   email
   is using a blocked server ??

   mail19   01-02 05:35:51 {postfix.in }
[63603] (1871410360) Jan 02
   05:35:51 mail19 postfix/smtpd[63603]: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from

   web01.groups.io [66.175.222.12]: 454 4.7.1
   Service unavailable; Client
   host [66.175.222.12] blocked using

   bl.spamcop.net ; Blocked - see
   https://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?66.175.222.12;

   from=mailto:confirmbounce%2b8107350%2b4201506166695547...@groups.io>>
   to=mailto:p...@scom.ca>> proto=ESMTP

   helo=http://mail01.groups.io>>

   I did get the signup and also set my password but am unable to
   proceed.

   SPAMCOP.NET  is super flexible (ie will track
   and update bad ip's on the
   fly within 24 hours, so to land on this list means a server has been
   very very bad.

   let me know if i can help further.


I don't think either of us can really help. Looking at groups.io 
 posts this appears to happen sometimes, be it as a remaining 
result of a Yahoo migration that occurred in the past or from group admins 
adding email addresses for SpamCop spam traps in some capacity.

InterLinked: You previously stated that most lists you've been on migrated to 
groups.io , has this been a problem for them and if so how 
did they approach it (if at all)?

I have to be on at least 2 or 3 dozen groups.io lists at this point and I've 
not really seen this be much of a problem. It haven't seen it on any of my 
lists with 100+ members or really heard about it on other lists. Occasionally, 
maybe a couple times a year, there are *bounces* and I know groups.io will auto 
unsubscribe users if it gets bounces to comply with email subscription policies 
and what not. I don't have any specific experience with SpamCop, that isn't a 
service I use on my mail servers.

I think this is going to be inevitable to some extent with any hosted mailing 
list. groups.io has a pool of IPs that they use but obviously they are shared 
between lists. Digium has been self-hosting lists so it hasn't had to worry 
about this in the past.

groups.io also has an online portal where you can register and manage groups, 
but that probably entails receiving an email at some point so you might run 
into the same issue there if you can't receive email.

Can you add the sender to your "safe senders" lists? IMO email services that 
don't allow the spam rules to be overridden are fundamentally flawed, but I 
realize you may not have control over that or be able to switch services.

It probably doesn't hurt to get in touch with the guy that runs groups.io, 
here: https://groups.io/helpcenter. I and others have reached out before for 
things and he's helpful and responsive.

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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-02 Thread asterisk


On 1/2/2024 5:55 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 6:41 AM Paul Kudla > wrote:



Good morning

Note I am unable to confirm my new email on the group because the
email
is using a blocked server ??

mail19       01-02 05:35:51 {postfix.in }  
 [63603] (1871410360) Jan 02
05:35:51 mail19 postfix/smtpd[63603]: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from

web01.groups.io [66.175.222.12]: 454 4.7.1
Service unavailable; Client
host [66.175.222.12] blocked using

bl.spamcop.net ; Blocked - see
https://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?66.175.222.12;

from=mailto:confirmbounce%2b8107350%2b4201506166695547...@groups.io>>
to=mailto:p...@scom.ca>> proto=ESMTP

helo=http://mail01.groups.io>>

I did get the signup and also set my password but am unable to
proceed.

SPAMCOP.NET  is super flexible (ie will track
and update bad ip's on the
fly within 24 hours, so to land on this list means a server has been
very very bad.

let me know if i can help further.


I don't think either of us can really help. Looking at groups.io 
 posts this appears to happen sometimes, be it as a 
remaining result of a Yahoo migration that occurred in the past or 
from group admins adding email addresses for SpamCop spam traps in 
some capacity.


InterLinked: You previously stated that most lists you've been on 
migrated to groups.io , has this been a problem for 
them and if so how did they approach it (if at all)?


I have to be on at least 2 or 3 dozen groups.io lists at this point and 
I've not really seen this be much of a problem. It haven't seen it on 
any of my lists with 100+ members or really heard about it on other 
lists. Occasionally, maybe a couple times a year, there are *bounces* 
and I know groups.io will auto unsubscribe users if it gets bounces to 
comply with email subscription policies and what not. I don't have any 
specific experience with SpamCop, that isn't a service I use on my mail 
servers.


I think this is going to be inevitable to some extent with any hosted 
mailing list. groups.io has a pool of IPs that they use but obviously 
they are shared between lists. Digium has been self-hosting lists so it 
hasn't had to worry about this in the past.


groups.io also has an online portal where you can register and manage 
groups, but that probably entails receiving an email at some point so 
you might run into the same issue there if you can't receive email.


Can you add the sender to your "safe senders" lists? IMO email services 
that don't allow the spam rules to be overridden are fundamentally 
flawed, but I realize you may not have control over that or be able to 
switch services.


It probably doesn't hurt to get in touch with the guy that runs 
groups.io, here: https://groups.io/helpcenter. I and others have reached 
out before for things and he's helpful and responsive.


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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-02 Thread Joshua C. Colp

On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 6:41 AM Paul Kudla  wrote:

>
> Good morning
>
> Note I am unable to confirm my new email on the group because the email
> is using a blocked server ??
>
> mail19   01-02 05:35:51 {postfix.in} [63603] (1871410360) Jan 02
> 05:35:51 mail19 postfix/smtpd[63603]: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from
>
> web01.groups.io[66.175.222.12]: 454 4.7.1 Service unavailable; Client
> host [66.175.222.12] blocked using
>
> bl.spamcop.net; Blocked - see
> https://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?66.175.222.12;
>
> from=
> to= proto=ESMTP
>
> helo=
>
> I did get the signup and also set my password but am unable to proceed.
>
> SPAMCOP.NET is super flexible (ie will track and update bad ip's on the
> fly within 24 hours, so to land on this list means a server has been
> very very bad.
>
> let me know if i can help further.
>

I don't think either of us can really help. Looking at groups.io posts this
appears to happen sometimes, be it as a remaining result of a Yahoo
migration that occurred in the past or from group admins adding email
addresses for SpamCop spam traps in some capacity.

InterLinked: You previously stated that most lists you've been on migrated
to groups.io, has this been a problem for them and if so how did they
approach it (if at all)?

-- 
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Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-02 Thread Paul Kudla



fyi :

from : https://www.spamcop.net/w3m?action=checkblock=66.175.222.12

Query bl.spamcop.net - 66.175.222.12
(Help) (Trace IP) (TalosIntelligence Lookup)

66.175.222.12 listed in bl.spamcop.net (127.0.0.2)

If there are no reports of ongoing objectionable email from this system 
it will be delisted automatically in approximately 2 hours.

Causes of listing

System has sent mail to SpamCop spam traps in the past week (spam 
traps are secret, no reports or evidence are provided by SpamCop)




Express-delisting is not available
Listing History
In the past 89.7 days, it has been listed 12 times for a total of 12.7 days
Dispute Listing
If you are the administrator of this system and you are sure this 
listing is erroneous, you may request that we review the listing. 
Because everyone wants to dispute their listing, regardless of merit, we 
reserve the right to ignore meritless disputes.

Dispute listing of 66.175.222.12

Have A Happy Tuesday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 1/2/2024 5:21 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:

Greetings all,

Happy new year! During my vacation I was still working (which is 
something I'm trying to get better at but that's a 2024 thing) so was 
able to communicate with legal during such time. Based on the 
recommendation from aster...@phreaknet.org 
 (you may also know him as InterLinked on 
GitHub and IRC) I have set up an asterisk-dev group[1] on groups.io 
. Before actively moving I suggest everyone subscribe, 
play around with it, start some discussions, etc, to get a feel for it. 
If there's also feedback on settings I can tweak to make it over all 
better I can also look at those as it gives much more control over 
things than the previous solution. I've already done a run through and 
tweaked settings to fit our usage, but improvements are always nice.


I'd also like to extend a thank you to all those who offered hardware 
and physical hosting even though I did not take you up on it.


Cheers,

[1] https://groups.io/g/asterisk-dev 

--
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
www.asterisk.org 


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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-02 Thread Paul Kudla



Good morning

Note I am unable to confirm my new email on the group because the email 
is using a blocked server ??


mail19   01-02 05:35:51 {postfix.in} [63603] (1871410360) Jan 02 
05:35:51 mail19 postfix/smtpd[63603]: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from


web01.groups.io[66.175.222.12]: 454 4.7.1 Service unavailable; Client 
host [66.175.222.12] blocked using


bl.spamcop.net; Blocked - see 
https://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?66.175.222.12;


from= 
to= proto=ESMTP


helo=

I did get the signup and also set my password but am unable to proceed.

SPAMCOP.NET is super flexible (ie will track and update bad ip's on the 
fly within 24 hours, so to land on this list means a server has been 
very very bad.


let me know if i can help further.


Have A Happy Tuesday !!!

Thanks - Paul Kudla (Manager SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.)


Scom.ca Internet Services 
004-1009 Byron Street South
Whitby, Ontario - Canada
L1N 4S3

Toronto 416.642.7266
Main 1.866.411.7266
Fax 1.888.892.7266
Email p...@scom.ca

On 1/2/2024 5:21 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:

Greetings all,

Happy new year! During my vacation I was still working (which is 
something I'm trying to get better at but that's a 2024 thing) so was 
able to communicate with legal during such time. Based on the 
recommendation from aster...@phreaknet.org 
 (you may also know him as InterLinked on 
GitHub and IRC) I have set up an asterisk-dev group[1] on groups.io 
. Before actively moving I suggest everyone subscribe, 
play around with it, start some discussions, etc, to get a feel for it. 
If there's also feedback on settings I can tweak to make it over all 
better I can also look at those as it gives much more control over 
things than the previous solution. I've already done a run through and 
tweaked settings to fit our usage, but improvements are always nice.


I'd also like to extend a thank you to all those who offered hardware 
and physical hosting even though I did not take you up on it.


Cheers,

[1] https://groups.io/g/asterisk-dev 

--
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
www.asterisk.org 


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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2024-01-02 Thread Joshua C. Colp

Greetings all,

Happy new year! During my vacation I was still working (which is something
I'm trying to get better at but that's a 2024 thing) so was able to
communicate with legal during such time. Based on the recommendation from
aster...@phreaknet.org (you may also know him as InterLinked on GitHub and
IRC) I have set up an asterisk-dev group[1] on groups.io. Before actively
moving I suggest everyone subscribe, play around with it, start some
discussions, etc, to get a feel for it. If there's also feedback on
settings I can tweak to make it over all better I can also look at those as
it gives much more control over things than the previous solution. I've
already done a run through and tweaked settings to fit our usage, but
improvements are always nice.

I'd also like to extend a thank you to all those who offered hardware and
physical hosting even though I did not take you up on it.

Cheers,

[1] https://groups.io/g/asterisk-dev

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Director of Engineering | Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-15 Thread Paul Kudla ( SCOM )

Hi paul from scom.ca


I am an isp and would be prepared to host this mailing list for free on a 
deficated server


In all fairness i need the following 


Prefrered os ( i use freebsd )


Aprox bandwidth needed ( i host out of peer one in Toronto ontario canada )


Full setup info ie apache server / postfix / dovecot etc


Open to discussion 


You can email me at p...@scom.ca directly ( would probably be better )


My way of giving back ?


  
 thanks - paul 
   Paul Kudla  SCOM.CA Internet Services Inc.004-1009 Byron Street 
South   Whitby, Ontario - Canada   L1N 4S3Toronto   416.642.7266   Main   
1.866.411.7266   Fax   1.888.892.7266   

On Dec 15, 2023 at 11:19:09 EST, C. Maj  
wrote:
On 12/13/23 08:03, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
> Based on the community feedback from those using the list I have chosen to
> continue through a new mailing list on a hosted solution, thus one will
> continue to exist.

That's great news, thanks!

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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-15 Thread C. Maj


On 12/13/23 08:03, Joshua C. Colp wrote:

Based on the community feedback from those using the list I have chosen to
continue through a new mailing list on a hosted solution, thus one will
continue to exist.


That's great news, thanks!

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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 10:12 AM Henning Westerholt  wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> honestly, I don’t understand the point of this discussion anymore.
> Probably all the people that somehow are interested in keeping the mailing
> list spoke up by now. Almost all were in favour of keeping the list. Some
> people also offered help in hosting the list in the future.
>

More people have spoken up after I nudged in a previous post. Their input
is also welcome, including how they use the list, because that information
is also useful in other ways. For example some people were unaware that you
could even watch repos on GitHub and have sent me thanks for that
information. That's a data point so we can make it clearer in other areas
that it can be done for users to be aware of things outside of a mailing
list for those who choose it.

>
>
> If it’s your decision as asterisk project manager to shut down this list,
> then just do it. If the asterisk project does not care about the opinion of
> their independent contributors and developers in this matter to save some
> operations costs, that is unfortunate but understandable. In the end it
> shows the value of this open-source community for the project. Everyone
> must then decide if moving to a proprietary communication solution is
> acceptable.
>

The lists.digium.com instance as it exists now will shut down. Its history
and archive will remain available. The mailman instance is not in a state
where upgrading or migrating it is feasible. Those are the facts. I have
received private communication from an individual who attempted to do so on
their own instance in a similar state and was unable to, and they stated
that they were aware others had tried with most being failures.

Based on the community feedback from those using the list I have chosen to
continue through a new mailing list on a hosted solution, thus one will
continue to exist. I was hoping to have a plan and also check over aspects
that are indirectly involved (for example the release process and how it
would get emails to such a thing in a manner that works as well as check
with legal about personal information involving an outside vendor) before
saying so (and also collect more information on usage), but none of that is
done as of yet. I don't know the full details yet but will keep this
mailing list updated until such time as we're ready with the details.

-- 
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Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-13 Thread Henning Westerholt

Hello,

honestly, I don’t understand the point of this discussion anymore. Probably all 
the people that somehow are interested in keeping the mailing list spoke up by 
now. Almost all were in favour of keeping the list. Some people also offered 
help in hosting the list in the future.

If it’s your decision as asterisk project manager to shut down this list, then 
just do it. If the asterisk project does not care about the opinion of their 
independent contributors and developers in this matter to save some operations 
costs, that is unfortunate but understandable. In the end it shows the value of 
this open-source community for the project. Everyone must then decide if moving 
to a proprietary communication solution is acceptable.

Best regards,

Henning Westerholt

From: asterisk-dev  On Behalf Of Joshua 
C. Colp
Sent: Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2023 14:42
To: aster...@phreaknet.org
Cc: Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 9:21 AM 
mailto:aster...@phreaknet.org>> wrote:
On 12/13/2023 7:55 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:45 AM Jonathan Simpson
> mailto:jsimp...@jdsnetwork.com> 
> <mailto:jsimp...@jdsnetwork.com<mailto:jsimp...@jdsnetwork.com>>> wrote:
>
> The mixed content is useful.
>
> Learning about stir shaken updates, useful. Would that have been
> in a github notification? Would the subject line be parsable?
>
>
> My inquiry was strictly regarding release notifications and security
> advisories. If discussions were done in GitHub then it would have been
> a GitHub notification and parseable if you opted to receive them.

I'll point out another issue with this as well. This assumes we're just
talking about the "asterisk" repo here, and friends, but the
asterisk-dev list has become the catch-all list for most discussion of
anything development related in the entire Asterisk family of software,
particularly as most of the other lists died a long time ago.

Some people have turned it into that, yes.

For example, in what repo should discussion of wanpipe take place? Some
of us might want to discuss issues with or trade patches[1], but there
isn't a wanpipe repo since it's not an "open source project". Or general
discussions that might cross over into multiple repos at once, like
something that affects both Asterisk and DAHDI Linux, or both DAHDI
Linux and DAHDI Tools? Should everyone now watch the asterisk-test-suite
repo too? There are a lot of edge cases this doesn't handle well.

I think it's also worth pointing out that, while I'm not one of these
individuals, there are a number of people that don't have a GitHub
account (and perhaps might not want one) that would be excluded if all
discussion was happening there. This very point came out when the
project moved away from Atlassian and there were comments to that effect
*on this list*. These people would have been completely unheard if
discussion had also moved to GitHub prior to that. Do you want to
intentionally exclude them now?

Some people I've noticed also subscribe to the digest version of this
list. I could be wrong but I doubt GitHub discussion has a "digest"
mechanism... because it isn't a real mailing list with all the options
of a real mailing list.

Sometimes people see something on the mailing list and reply privately
to the OP to continue a specific point of discussion off-list. On GitHub
discussions, where everyone is identified by their GitHub usernames and
not real names or email addresses, getting in touch with someone could
be considerably more difficult, particularly for people who might just
be looking at the discussion online.

And frankly, I think expecting 2100 people to reply to this thread is
downright unrealistic. On no mailing list ever does everybody
participate. The majority of mailing lists are dominated by the
discussion of a few while the rest sit back and listen (which is
perfectly fine), maybe 5% of posters generating 95% of the posts. Some
people don't want to contribute, but they do want to read. Nobody has
come out and said he or she wants the mailing list to go away or give
way to another format, and lack of a response is *not* tacit approval of
doing so. All the stakeholders that have spoken out are against the
decision.

I'm not expecting 2100 people to reply. What I'm trying to get is more people 
to respond with how THEY use the mailing lists. Your opinion is yours, and is 
how you want to use the mailing list and what you want get out of it. It's a 
factor in things but you don't speak for everyone. Everyone is different and 
understanding what people are actually expecting out of the mailing lists is 
important. So far what I'm seeing is people using it for announcement type 
stuff, with the odd discussion here and there, and as a way to get some insight 
into development.

So hypothetically speaking if a new ma

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 9:21 AM  wrote:

> On 12/13/2023 7:55 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:45 AM Jonathan Simpson
> > mailto:jsimp...@jdsnetwork.com>> wrote:
> >
> > The mixed content is useful.
> >
> > Learning about stir shaken updates, useful. Would that have been
> > in a github notification? Would the subject line be parsable?
> >
> >
> > My inquiry was strictly regarding release notifications and security
> > advisories. If discussions were done in GitHub then it would have been
> > a GitHub notification and parseable if you opted to receive them.
>
> I'll point out another issue with this as well. This assumes we're just
> talking about the "asterisk" repo here, and friends, but the
> asterisk-dev list has become the catch-all list for most discussion of
> anything development related in the entire Asterisk family of software,
> particularly as most of the other lists died a long time ago.
>

Some people have turned it into that, yes.


>
> For example, in what repo should discussion of wanpipe take place? Some
> of us might want to discuss issues with or trade patches[1], but there
> isn't a wanpipe repo since it's not an "open source project". Or general
> discussions that might cross over into multiple repos at once, like
> something that affects both Asterisk and DAHDI Linux, or both DAHDI
> Linux and DAHDI Tools? Should everyone now watch the asterisk-test-suite
> repo too? There are a lot of edge cases this doesn't handle well.


> I think it's also worth pointing out that, while I'm not one of these
> individuals, there are a number of people that don't have a GitHub
> account (and perhaps might not want one) that would be excluded if all
> discussion was happening there. This very point came out when the
> project moved away from Atlassian and there were comments to that effect
> *on this list*. These people would have been completely unheard if
> discussion had also moved to GitHub prior to that. Do you want to
> intentionally exclude them now?
>
> Some people I've noticed also subscribe to the digest version of this
> list. I could be wrong but I doubt GitHub discussion has a "digest"
> mechanism... because it isn't a real mailing list with all the options
> of a real mailing list.
>
> Sometimes people see something on the mailing list and reply privately
> to the OP to continue a specific point of discussion off-list. On GitHub
> discussions, where everyone is identified by their GitHub usernames and
> not real names or email addresses, getting in touch with someone could
> be considerably more difficult, particularly for people who might just
> be looking at the discussion online.
>
> And frankly, I think expecting 2100 people to reply to this thread is
> downright unrealistic. On no mailing list ever does everybody
> participate. The majority of mailing lists are dominated by the
> discussion of a few while the rest sit back and listen (which is
> perfectly fine), maybe 5% of posters generating 95% of the posts. Some
> people don't want to contribute, but they do want to read. Nobody has
> come out and said he or she wants the mailing list to go away or give
> way to another format, and lack of a response is *not* tacit approval of
> doing so. All the stakeholders that have spoken out are against the
> decision.
>

I'm not expecting 2100 people to reply. What I'm trying to get is more
people to respond with how THEY use the mailing lists. Your opinion is
yours, and is how you want to use the mailing list and what you want get
out of it. It's a factor in things but you don't speak for everyone.
Everyone is different and understanding what people are actually expecting
out of the mailing lists is important. So far what I'm seeing is people
using it for announcement type stuff, with the odd discussion here and
there, and as a way to get some insight into development.

So hypothetically speaking if a new mailing list were to be created but the
existing subscriber list could not be preserved, would people sign up again?

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-13 Thread asterisk

On 12/13/2023 7:55 AM, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:45 AM Jonathan Simpson
mailto:jsimp...@jdsnetwork.com>> wrote:

The mixed content is useful.

Learning about stir shaken updates, useful. Would that have been
in a github notification? Would the subject line be parsable?

My inquiry was strictly regarding release notifications and security
advisories. If discussions were done in GitHub then it would have been
a GitHub notification and parseable if you opted to receive them.

I'll point out another issue with this as well. This assumes we're just
talking about the "asterisk" repo here, and friends, but the
asterisk-dev list has become the catch-all list for most discussion of
anything development related in the entire Asterisk family of software,
particularly as most of the other lists died a long time ago.

For example, in what repo should discussion of wanpipe take place? Some
of us might want to discuss issues with or trade patches[1], but there
isn't a wanpipe repo since it's not an "open source project". Or general
discussions that might cross over into multiple repos at once, like
something that affects both Asterisk and DAHDI Linux, or both DAHDI
Linux and DAHDI Tools? Should everyone now watch the asterisk-test-suite
repo too? There are a lot of edge cases this doesn't handle well.

I think it's also worth pointing out that, while I'm not one of these
individuals, there are a number of people that don't have a GitHub
account (and perhaps might not want one) that would be excluded if all
discussion was happening there. This very point came out when the
project moved away from Atlassian and there were comments to that effect
*on this list*. These people would have been completely unheard if
discussion had also moved to GitHub prior to that. Do you want to
intentionally exclude them now?

Some people I've noticed also subscribe to the digest version of this
list. I could be wrong but I doubt GitHub discussion has a "digest"
mechanism... because it isn't a real mailing list with all the options
of a real mailing list.

Sometimes people see something on the mailing list and reply privately
to the OP to continue a specific point of discussion off-list. On GitHub
discussions, where everyone is identified by their GitHub usernames and
not real names or email addresses, getting in touch with someone could
be considerably more difficult, particularly for people who might just
be looking at the discussion online.

And frankly, I think expecting 2100 people to reply to this thread is
downright unrealistic. On no mailing list ever does everybody
participate. The majority of mailing lists are dominated by the
discussion of a few while the rest sit back and listen (which is
perfectly fine), maybe 5% of posters generating 95% of the posts. Some
people don't want to contribute, but they do want to read. Nobody has
come out and said he or she wants the mailing list to go away or give
way to another format, and lack of a response is *not* tacit approval of
doing so. All the stakeholders that have spoken out are against the
decision.

I will say though that I have been receiving release announcements both
via the mailing list and via GitHub. For release announcements
specifically, they both work fine. In fact, since the recent 3.3.0 GA
DAHDI Linux release only went to GitHub and not the mailing lists,
that's how I noticed it. I think GitHub is probably just fine for this,
but less so for everything else.

I've already given my opinion before, but I'll reiterate that mailing
lists are accessible to everyone in a way that GitHub never has been and
never will be. I can fire up a terminal email client like mutt or alpine
and make a new post to the list[2][3]. Their website is notorious for
making random changes that break certain browsers and they don't give a
hoot. It's a proprietary platform that we're all at the complete mercy
of. There are already certain things that it's bad at, and there's no
reason to expect it will be better at other things in the future.

[1] This has been happening, but largely on another private mailing
list, not on the asterisk-dev list, though the latter is arguably a more
suitable location for this
[2] And given the audience of this list, I think it's reasonable to
expect that a number of subscribers do this or may want to, at least
occasionally
[3] I'm aware you can respond to a GitHub discussion from email, but you
can't start a discussion via email - see
https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/76055/can-i-create-an-issue-in-a-github-repository-by-sending-an-email
This alone is a major access barrier, considering that GitHub no longer
works in any of my preferred browsers, because they have no obligation
to comply with standards. Even though I have a GitHub account, I hate
using the GitHub website and it's a pain to do so.

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:45 AM Jonathan Simpson 
wrote:

> The mixed content is useful.
>
> Learning about stir shaken updates, useful. Would that have been in a
> github notification? Would the subject line be parsable?
>

My inquiry was strictly regarding release notifications and security
advisories. If discussions were done in GitHub then it would have been a
GitHub notification and parseable if you opted to receive them.

>
>
> Notifications from github are more likely to be lost among the many others
> I get for my own work.
>

There's various options for filtering, some are mentioned on the previous
link I gave to Jaco but if it helps at all you can also do custom
routing[1]. On a per-organization basis you can direct emails to a
different email address that's associated on your GitHub account which can
make filtering easier. I use it personally for directing Asterisk stuff to
Sangoma, and personal stuff to personal. It's handy.

[1]
https://docs.github.com/en/account-and-profile/managing-subscriptions-and-notifications-on-github/setting-up-notifications/configuring-notifications#customizing-email-routes-per-organization

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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:40 AM Jaco Kroon  wrote:

> Hi Joshua,
> On 2023/12/13 14:30, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:12 AM Floimair Florian 
> wrote:
>
>> I agree!
>>
>>
>>
>> To me the mailing list is the best source of gathering information,
>> especially in terms of announcements of new Release versions.
>>
>> While there might be more info in the github releases the trigger is
>> always the mailing list.
>>
>
> Can you (and others) explain why GitHub can't take the place of that
> aspect? You can watch to receive notifications for just releases and
> security advisories, which can then trigger an email. Is it the format of
> the email? Harder to filter? The list is easier because it's combined with
> other stuff?
>
> I'm going to be the one it seems asking the blunt question:
>
> How?
>
While logged in you go to any repository on GitHub, including Asterisk,
https://github.com/asterisk/asterisk and and click the "Watch" button to
the left of "Fork". There are various options but if you want to be more
refined in what you receive notifications for go to "Custom" and you can
select which things. "Releases" and "Security alerts" being the best option
for most people. GitHub has an entire documentation section on
subscriptions/notifications[1] with lots of details.

If you use other open source projects on GitHub, this is also useful since
you can do the same with them.

[1]
https://docs.github.com/en/account-and-profile/managing-subscriptions-and-notifications-on-github

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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-13 Thread Jonathan Simpson

The mixed content is useful.

Learning about stir shaken updates, useful. Would that have been in a
github notification? Would the subject line be parsable?

Notifications from github are more likely to be lost among the many others
I get for my own work.

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 07:30 Joshua C. Colp  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:12 AM Floimair Florian 
> wrote:
>
>> I agree!
>>
>>
>>
>> To me the mailing list is the best source of gathering information,
>> especially in terms of announcements of new Release versions.
>>
>> While there might be more info in the github releases the trigger is
>> always the mailing list.
>>
>
> Can you (and others) explain why GitHub can't take the place of that
> aspect? You can watch to receive notifications for just releases and
> security advisories, which can then trigger an email. Is it the format of
> the email? Harder to filter? The list is easier because it's combined with
> other stuff?
>
> --
> Joshua C. Colp
> Asterisk Project Lead
> Sangoma Technologies
> Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
> --
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-13 Thread Jaco Kroon


Hi Joshua,

On 2023/12/13 14:30, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:12 AM Floimair Florian 
 wrote:


I agree!

To me the mailing list is the best source of gathering
information, especially in terms of announcements of new Release
versions.

While there might be more info in the github releases the trigger
is always the mailing list.


Can you (and others) explain why GitHub can't take the place of that 
aspect? You can watch to receive notifications for just releases and 
security advisories, which can then trigger an email. Is it the format 
of the email? Harder to filter? The list is easier because it's 
combined with other stuff?


I'm going to be the one it seems asking the blunt question:

How?

Kind regards,
Jaco
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-13 Thread משרד GIS מערכות תקשורת

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 8:12 AM Floimair Florian 
wrote:

> I agree!
>
>
>
> To me the mailing list is the best source of gathering information,
> especially in terms of announcements of new Release versions.
>
> While there might be more info in the github releases the trigger is
> always the mailing list.
>

Can you (and others) explain why GitHub can't take the place of that
aspect? You can watch to receive notifications for just releases and
security advisories, which can then trigger an email. Is it the format of
the email? Harder to filter? The list is easier because it's combined with
other stuff?

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-13 Thread Floimair Florian

I agree!

To me the mailing list is the best source of gathering information, especially 
in terms of announcements of new Release versions.
While there might be more info in the github releases the trigger is always the 
mailing list.

I also agree with some of the others that the mailing list is in fact low 
volume, so therefore it is a very convenient place to look into once there are 
new messages, as the low volume does provide very convenient management of 
messages. A high-volume mailing list is in fact much harder to digest so I like 
It as it is.

FLORIAN FLOIMAIR
Development
Symphony Cloud Services
Commend International GmbH
Saalachstrasse 51
5020 Salzburg, Austria
Phone: +43 662 85 62 25
Mail: f.floim...@commend.com<mailto:f.floim...@commend.com>
[signature_2293500436]
commend.com
LG Salzburg / FN 178618z


Von: asterisk-dev  im Auftrag von 
Jonathan Simpson 
Datum: Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2023 um 12:17
An: Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
Betreff: [External] Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.
I also would like the list to continue. I use it to follow asterisk development.

Mailing lists are great for following along and observing topics and 
development in a way that forums are absolutely not. I read every post on this 
list and frequently learn from it, because it's a passive feed in my email.

I would not do the same on a forum. Reading through each thread and keeping 
track of new ones is simply too much of an investment.

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 04:01 משרד GIS מערכות תקשורת 
mailto:supp...@phonecall.co>> wrote:
my thought can we get the forum with tag dev should have a separate mailing 
list   not to be overflowed with the regular forum mail and also need a easy 
way to send a question with no need to log on to forum
I think this is the hurdle!
Does anyone agree ?

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 10:50 AM Michael Neuhauser 
mailto:m...@firmix.at>> wrote:
Hello,

On 12/12/2023 17:30, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 12:10 PM Henning Westerholt 
mailto:h...@gilawa.com>> wrote:
the majority of the responses seems to be against the discontinuation of the 
mailing list.

Yes, this is true. It would be nice to have more input though so if other 
individuals have opinions (including why they want the lists to continue and 
what they use them for) then that would be beneficial. I'm talking to the over 
2100 people who haven't responded to this thread.

I also would like the development mailing list to continue. Mainly to get 
updates about infrastructure changes (e.g., the move to github) and release 
notes.

Regards,
Mike
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-13 Thread Jonathan Simpson

I also would like the list to continue. I use it to follow asterisk
development.

Mailing lists are great for following along and observing topics and
development in a way that forums are absolutely not. I read every post on
this list and frequently learn from it, because it's a passive feed in my
email.

I would not do the same on a forum. Reading through each thread and keeping
track of new ones is simply too much of an investment.

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 04:01 משרד GIS מערכות תקשורת 
wrote:

> my thought can we get the forum with tag dev should have a separate
> mailing list   not to be overflowed with the regular forum mail and also
> need a easy way to send a question with no need to log on to forum
> I think this is the hurdle!
> Does anyone agree ?
>
> On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 10:50 AM Michael Neuhauser  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> On 12/12/2023 17:30, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 12:10 PM Henning Westerholt 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> the majority of the responses seems to be against the discontinuation
>>> of the mailing list.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, this is true. It would be nice to have more input though so if other
>> individuals have opinions (including why they want the lists to continue
>> and what they use them for) then that would be beneficial. I'm talking to
>> the over 2100 people who haven't responded to this thread.
>>
>> I also would like the development mailing list to continue. Mainly to get
>> updates about infrastructure changes (e.g., the move to github) and release
>> notes.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>> --
>> _
>> -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com --
>>
>> asterisk-dev mailing list
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>>http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
>
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

my thought can we get the forum with tag dev should have a separate mailing
list   not to be overflowed with the regular forum mail and also need a
easy way to send a question with no need to log on to forum
I think this is the hurdle!
Does anyone agree ?

On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 10:50 AM Michael Neuhauser  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On 12/12/2023 17:30, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
>
> On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 12:10 PM Henning Westerholt  wrote:
>
>> the majority of the responses seems to be against the discontinuation of
>> the mailing list.
>>
>
> Yes, this is true. It would be nice to have more input though so if other
> individuals have opinions (including why they want the lists to continue
> and what they use them for) then that would be beneficial. I'm talking to
> the over 2100 people who haven't responded to this thread.
>
> I also would like the development mailing list to continue. Mainly to get
> updates about infrastructure changes (e.g., the move to github) and release
> notes.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
> --
> _
> -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com --
>
> asterisk-dev mailing list
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-13 Thread Michael Neuhauser


Hello,

On 12/12/2023 17:30, Joshua C. Colp wrote:

On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 12:10 PM Henning Westerholt  wrote:

the majority of the responses seems to be against the
discontinuation of the mailing list.


Yes, this is true. It would be nice to have more input though so if 
other individuals have opinions (including why they want the lists to 
continue and what they use them for) then that would be beneficial. 
I'm talking to the over 2100 people who haven't responded to this thread.


I also would like the development mailing list to continue. Mainly to 
get updates about infrastructure changes (e.g., the move to github) and 
release notes.


Regards,
Mike
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-12 Thread Karsten Wemheuer

Hello,

Am Dienstag, dem 12.12.2023 um 12:30 -0400 schrieb Joshua C. Colp:
> On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 12:10 PM Henning Westerholt 
> wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > the majority of the responses seems to be against the
> > discontinuation of the mailing list.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Yes, this is true. It would be nice to have more input though so if
> other individuals have opinions (including why they want the lists to
> continue and what they use them for) then that would be beneficial.
> I'm talking to the over 2100 people who haven't responded to this
> thread.

I also prefer to read a mailing list. Querying forums or github
discussions is not a solution for me. 

Just my 2 cents as a long time follower of this list. (One of the
2100).

> 
> > Has a decision already been made in the last week? Or is this still
> > discussed internally or with some of the people that offered help
> > in keeping the mailing lists running?
> > 
> > 
> 
> The only decision that has been made is that the instance of
> lists.digium.com as it exists today will go away. I don't expect any
> explicit decision to occur until next year. I'm personally going on
> vacation for 2 weeks, though others may continue any discussion in my
> absence to get further insight.

Have a nice vacation!

Karsten Wemheuer


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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-12 Thread Joshua C. Colp

On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 12:10 PM Henning Westerholt  wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> the majority of the responses seems to be against the discontinuation of
> the mailing list.
>

Yes, this is true. It would be nice to have more input though so if other
individuals have opinions (including why they want the lists to continue
and what they use them for) then that would be beneficial. I'm talking to
the over 2100 people who haven't responded to this thread.

>
>
> Has a decision already been made in the last week? Or is this still
> discussed internally or with some of the people that offered help in
> keeping the mailing lists running?
>

The only decision that has been made is that the instance of
lists.digium.com as it exists today will go away. I don't expect any
explicit decision to occur until next year. I'm personally going on
vacation for 2 weeks, though others may continue any discussion in my
absence to get further insight.

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-12 Thread Maxim Sobolev

I agree with what seems to be the majority here. Astrisk-dev at this point
is a nice low-volume source of news about developments in the Asterisk
world for me as well. I enjoyed reading occasional release notes and event
announcements, would be a shame to see those stop. :(

-Max

On Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 8:10 AM Henning Westerholt  wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> the majority of the responses seems to be against the discontinuation of
> the mailing list.
>
>
>
> Has a decision already been made in the last week? Or is this still
> discussed internally or with some of the people that offered help in
> keeping the mailing lists running?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Henning
>
>
>
> *From:* asterisk-dev  *On Behalf
> Of *Joshua C. Colp
> *Sent:* Montag, 4. Dezember 2023 13:00
> *To:* Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
> *Subject:* [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future
>
>
>
> Greetings all,
>
> Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has
> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community
> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten
> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the
> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for
> minimal use.
>
> To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective
> February 1st, 2024.
>
> This means the following:
>
> 1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
> 2. The list archives, however, will remain available.
>
> We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list;
> specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few
> options:
>
> 1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/
> already that can be used.
> 2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub
> project.
> 3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.
>
> We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which
> is where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has
> been set up and enabled already.
>
> If you have any input, now is the time to state it.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> --
>
> Joshua C. Colp
>
> Asterisk Project Lead
>
> Sangoma Technologies
>
> Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
> --
> _
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>
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> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-12 Thread Henning Westerholt

Hello,

the majority of the responses seems to be against the discontinuation of the 
mailing list.

Has a decision already been made in the last week? Or is this still discussed 
internally or with some of the people that offered help in keeping the mailing 
lists running?

Thanks,

Henning

From: asterisk-dev  On Behalf Of Joshua 
C. Colp
Sent: Montag, 4. Dezember 2023 13:00
To: Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
Subject: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has diminished, 
with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community forums[1]. The 
state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten more complicated - 
emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the mailing lists would 
require a huge time and resource investment, for minimal use.

To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective February 
1st, 2024.

This means the following:

1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
2. The list archives, however, will remain available.

We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list; specifically, 
where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few options:

1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/ already 
that can be used.
2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub project.
3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.

We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which is 
where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has been set 
up and enabled already.

If you have any input, now is the time to state it.

Cheers,

--
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and 
www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread Steve Edwards


On Mon, 4 Dec 2023, Joshua C. Colp wrote:

To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
February 1st, 2024.


I use both interfaces.

I would hate to see either go away. They serve different purposes for me.

The big draw for email is 'it comes to me' and it's quick to browse. I can 
'funnel' (procmail) all of the Asterisk mailing lists into a single folder 
and browse it all in a few seconds. I use 'alpine' as my MUA, so it's all 
just a couple of keystrokes and I'm done. It does not disrupt my 'shell 
heavy' workflow.


I like the web interface, particularly if I'm quoting or formatting a 
snippet as 'code.'


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-
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread Niklas Larsson


Den 2023-12-04 kl. 13:00, skrev Joshua C. Colp:

Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has 
diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk 
community forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, 
has also gotten more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, 
etc.. To continue the mailing lists would require a huge time and 
resource investment, for minimal use.


To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
February 1st, 2024.



If you have any input, now is the time to state it.



Would really prefer mail-list for the asterisk-dev, there is nothing 
that works so well and gives me the least work - no need to poll a forum 
etc. It just arrives in my email client where ever I am.


So my 5 öre would be to not change it the kind of transport. Go with 
groups.io or something like that, if you don't want to maintain it yourself.


/niklas


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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread Andreas Wehrmann




Am 04.12.2023 um 13:52 schrieb aster...@phreaknet.org:
I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists 
are essential for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of 
non-ephemeral development discussion happens either on IRC or here on 
the asterisk-dev list - just check the archives to see that it's still 
active. Most of us are not on the community forums and/or couldn't be 
bothered to use them. You can go and see now that "Development" on the 
community forums is basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so 
trying to push that on everyone is a terrible idea.


Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major 
loss. Far more *discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but 
far more *quality* discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being 
on a mailing list seems to be a natural weedout for junk questions. 
More serious questions still seem to come through on the mailing list. 
The community forums is far fuller of useless postings from people who 
can't tell a hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants to wade 
through a bunch of low-quality posts to find the few that might have 
some use. Thus, getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant 
drop in the average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if 
the -users list is dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some 
form.


I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and 
no, that's not a proper replacement for a mailing list.


GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately 
I think that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells 
and whistles but most of them aren't as built out as using the proper 
tool they try to emulate.


I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the 
right job. If you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else 
do it. I do a combination of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. 
Contrary to the opinions of some, people, especially technical people, 
have not "moved on" from mailing lists; they are widely used, and I 
get hundreds of emails a day from them that I have a good workflow for.


Most lists I'm on that used to be elsewhere (e.g. Yahoo Groups, Google 
Groups, mailman, LISTSERV, other custom or independent platforms) have 
now migrated to groups.io and are generally highly satisfied with it 
compared to other platforms. It used to be completely free; it's now 
free for lists under 100 members, or ones that are grandfathered in. 
As the maintainer of several lists there and a member of many more, 
I've been pretty happy with it.


I'd suggest creating a list there and letting people on this list 
manually opt into it, since there are probably a lot of people on 
mailman that aren't active anymore. If it's under 100 members, it's 
completely free anyways. If more than 100 people join, that means 
people here *really* like mailing lists and find value in them, and 
I'm sure Sangoma can afford $20 a month for it, if it really doesn't 
want to run mailman lists anymore that badly, and $20 is a small price 
to keep developers happy.


NA


I'm signing this as well.
I work with several FOSS projects and basically all have something in 
common: A mailing list.
Now, if different projects get the idea of migrating to different 
forums, things become really impractical.
Right now; I can open my e-mail client and immediately search 
for/through discussions, no need to fire up the browser and log into 
some forum.

And this works cross project (for the most part).

If I want to take part in a discussion, I just select the mail and press 
"reply list"; easy as that.
Internet searches, ML archives: saved me a couple of times, sometimes, 
the messages that helped were older than a decade.


I think keeping a pretty "low tech" way for this (like mailing lists) is 
important, especially for a project as big and important as Asterisk
because it makes it more accessible and more likely "to be around" in 
the future; there is less potential for "breakage".



Best Regards,
Andreas


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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread Michael Maier


Hello!

I can fully agree with what you have written. 100%

Thanks
Michael


On 04.12.23 at 13:52 aster...@phreaknet.org wrote:
I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists are essential 
for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of non-ephemeral development 
discussion happens either on IRC or here on the asterisk-dev list - just check the 
archives to see that it's still active. Most of us are not on the community forums 
and/or couldn't be bothered to use them. You can go and see now that "Development" 
on the community forums is basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so 
trying to push that on everyone is a terrible idea.


Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major loss. Far more 
*discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but far more *quality* 
discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being on a mailing list seems to be a 
natural weedout for junk questions. More serious questions still seem to come 
through on the mailing list. The community forums is far fuller of useless 
postings from people who can't tell a hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants 
to wade through a bunch of low-quality posts to find the few that might have some 
use. Thus, getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant drop in the 
average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if the -users list is 
dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some form.


I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and no, that's not 
a proper replacement for a mailing list.


GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately I think 
that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells and whistles but most 
of them aren't as built out as using the proper tool they try to emulate.


I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the right job. If 
you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else do it. I do a combination 
of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. Contrary to the opinions of some, 
people, especially technical people, have not "moved on" from mailing lists; they 
are widely used, and I get hundreds of emails a day from them that I have a good 
workflow for.


Most lists I'm on that used to be elsewhere (e.g. Yahoo Groups, Google Groups, 
mailman, LISTSERV, other custom or independent platforms) have now migrated to 
groups.io and are generally highly satisfied with it compared to other platforms. 
It used to be completely free; it's now free for lists under 100 members, or ones 
that are grandfathered in. As the maintainer of several lists there and a member 
of many more, I've been pretty happy with it.


I'd suggest creating a list there and letting people on this list manually opt 
into it, since there are probably a lot of people on mailman that aren't active 
anymore. If it's under 100 members, it's completely free anyways. If more than 100 
people join, that means people here *really* like mailing lists and find value in 
them, and I'm sure Sangoma can afford $20 a month for it, if it really doesn't 
want to run mailman lists anymore that badly, and $20 is a small price to keep 
developers happy.


NA

On 12/4/2023 7:28 AM, Jaco Kroon wrote:


Hi,

My 5c.  Killing the dev list is a bad idea.

Most developers could not care about having to poll forums.  It also means that 
stuff that would previously get an audience will now get none.


github discussions are better than forums at least.

May I inquire as to the problem you're having with the ML? Perhaps I might be 
able to assist ...


Kind regards,
Jaco

On 2023/12/04 14:00, Joshua C. Colp wrote:


Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has diminished, 
with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community forums[1]. The 
state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten more complicated - 
emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the mailing lists would 
require a huge time and resource investment, for minimal use.


To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective February 
1st, 2024.


This means the following:

1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
2. The list archives, however, will remain available.

We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list; specifically, 
where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few options:


1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/ already 
that can be used.

2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub project.
3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.

We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which is 
where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has been set 
up and enabled already.


If you have any input, now is the time to state it.

Cheers,

--
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 10:40 AM Dovid Bender  wrote:

> Josh,
>
> IMHO the list has dwindled as most issues are covered. When the project
> first started there were a lot of questions that are now available on
> Google. However every so often things come up where the list is very
> helpful. Also the forums seem to attract a different crowd I feel like the
> people on this list may not be the same ones visiting the forum. I am more
> than happy to give of my time to help setup fresh boxes, help admin the
> email list etc. We also have some 2nd gen boxes (R630 and R730 boxes) that
> we would give for the cause.
>

I have noted your opinion and offer.

-- 
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Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread Dovid Bender

Josh,

IMHO the list has dwindled as most issues are covered. When the project
first started there were a lot of questions that are now available on
Google. However every so often things come up where the list is very
helpful. Also the forums seem to attract a different crowd I feel like the
people on this list may not be the same ones visiting the forum. I am more
than happy to give of my time to help setup fresh boxes, help admin the
email list etc. We also have some 2nd gen boxes (R630 and R730 boxes) that
we would give for the cause.


On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 7:00 AM Joshua C. Colp  wrote:

> Greetings all,
>
> Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has
> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community
> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten
> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the
> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for
> minimal use.
>
> To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective
> February 1st, 2024.
>
> This means the following:
>
> 1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
> 2. The list archives, however, will remain available.
>
> We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list;
> specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few
> options:
>
> 1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/
> already that can be used.
> 2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub
> project.
> 3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.
>
> We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which
> is where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has
> been set up and enabled already.
>
> If you have any input, now is the time to state it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Joshua C. Colp
> Asterisk Project Lead
> Sangoma Technologies
> Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
> --
> _
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> asterisk-dev mailing list
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 10:31 AM Olle E. Johansson  wrote:

>
>
> On 4 Dec 2023, at 13:38, Joshua C. Colp  wrote:
>
> The mailing lists have remained unchanged since deployed.
>
> …and the archives for everything is still around.
>
> Mail is boring but very very long-term stable.
>
> Forums are cool, sexy and keeps changing so we loose history because the
> cost of mirgrating old postings and comments is way too high and the
> marketing department that runs the forums seldom understand the need to
> keep it persistent…
>
>
Did you mean for new content? And are you referring to just the
asterisk-dev mailing list?

-- 
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Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 10:31 AM Olle E. Johansson  wrote:

>
>
> On 4 Dec 2023, at 13:38, Joshua C. Colp  wrote:
>
> The mailing lists have remained unchanged since deployed.
>
> …and the archives for everything is still around.
>

As mentioned in my original email, the list archives will remain available.
They will be in the same format they are now, same location, same look.


>
> Mail is boring but very very long-term stable.
>
> Forums are cool, sexy and keeps changing so we loose history because the
> cost of mirgrating old postings and comments is way too high and the
> marketing department that runs the forums seldom understand the need to
> keep it persistent…
>
> I would encourage keeping a development mailing list.
>
> /O
>
>
> For self hosting they would need to be completely redone on fresh
> infrastructure, fresh distro, fresh software, and hopefully things would
> possibly import. They'd also need to be updated to conform to current
> standards on sending so that that they don't appear as spam as often. (For
> me 25% of emails from the lists go to my spam currently and require manual
> involvement)
>
> For hosted we'd need support for over 2500+ subscribers for the -dev list
> if it were to be imported. For commercial entities we could possibly
> import, but for something like someone doing that work and effort and
> hosting I would not be comfortable providing such information, and people
> would need to sign up fresh again. It would also not be something I would
> be willing to spend money on due to the low use of the lists.
>
> Past that - can you explain why it's a bad idea? I've looked at the
> interactions for the past few years and while some have existed, they've
> been minimal over all.
>
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:28 AM Jaco Kroon  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> My 5c.  Killing the dev list is a bad idea.
>>
>> Most developers could not care about having to poll forums.  It also
>> means that stuff that would previously get an audience will now get none.
>>
>> github discussions are better than forums at least.
>>
>> May I inquire as to the problem you're having with the ML?  Perhaps I
>> might be able to assist ...
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Jaco
>>
>> On 2023/12/04 14:00, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
>>
>> Greetings all,
>>
>> Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has
>> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community
>> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten
>> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the
>> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for
>> minimal use.
>>
>> To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective
>> February 1st, 2024.
>>
>> This means the following:
>>
>> 1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
>> 2. The list archives, however, will remain available.
>>
>> We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list;
>> specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few
>> options:
>>
>> 1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/
>> already that can be used.
>> 2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub
>> project.
>> 3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.
>>
>> We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project,
>> which is where everything development-related happens now regardless. This
>> has been set up and enabled already.
>>
>> If you have any input, now is the time to state it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> Joshua C. Colp
>> Asterisk Project Lead
>> Sangoma Technologies
>> Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> Joshua C. Colp
> Asterisk Project Lead
> Sangoma Technologies
> Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
> --
> _
> -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com --
>
> asterisk-dev mailing list
> To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
>   http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev
>
>
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> _
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>
> asterisk-dev mailing list
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread Olle E. Johansson



> On 4 Dec 2023, at 13:38, Joshua C. Colp  wrote:
> 
> The mailing lists have remained unchanged since deployed.
…and the archives for everything is still around.

Mail is boring but very very long-term stable.

Forums are cool, sexy and keeps changing so we loose history because the cost 
of mirgrating old postings and comments is way too high and the marketing 
department that runs the forums seldom understand the need to keep it 
persistent…

I would encourage keeping a development mailing list.

/O
> 
> For self hosting they would need to be completely redone on fresh 
> infrastructure, fresh distro, fresh software, and hopefully things would 
> possibly import. They'd also need to be updated to conform to current 
> standards on sending so that that they don't appear as spam as often. (For me 
> 25% of emails from the lists go to my spam currently and require manual 
> involvement)
> 
> For hosted we'd need support for over 2500+ subscribers for the -dev list if 
> it were to be imported. For commercial entities we could possibly import, but 
> for something like someone doing that work and effort and hosting I would not 
> be comfortable providing such information, and people would need to sign up 
> fresh again. It would also not be something I would be willing to spend money 
> on due to the low use of the lists.
> 
> Past that - can you explain why it's a bad idea? I've looked at the 
> interactions for the past few years and while some have existed, they've been 
> minimal over all.
> 
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:28 AM Jaco Kroon  > wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> My 5c.  Killing the dev list is a bad idea.
>> 
>> Most developers could not care about having to poll forums.  It also means 
>> that stuff that would previously get an audience will now get none.
>> 
>> github discussions are better than forums at least.
>> 
>> May I inquire as to the problem you're having with the ML?  Perhaps I might 
>> be able to assist ...
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> Jaco
>> 
>> On 2023/12/04 14:00, Joshua C. Colp wrote:
>> 
>>> Greetings all,
>>> 
>>> Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has 
>>> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community 
>>> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten 
>>> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the 
>>> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for 
>>> minimal use.
>>> 
>>> To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
>>> February 1st, 2024.
>>> 
>>> This means the following:
>>> 
>>> 1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
>>> 2. The list archives, however, will remain available.
>>> 
>>> We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list; 
>>> specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few 
>>> options:
>>> 
>>> 1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/ 
>>> already that can be used.
>>> 2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub 
>>> project.
>>> 3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.
>>> 
>>> We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which 
>>> is where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has 
>>> been set up and enabled already.
>>> 
>>> If you have any input, now is the time to state it.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Joshua C. Colp
>>> Asterisk Project Lead
>>> Sangoma Technologies
>>> Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
>>> www.asterisk.org 
>>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Joshua C. Colp
> Asterisk Project Lead
> Sangoma Technologies
> Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
> www.asterisk.org 
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 10:24 AM Fred Posner  wrote:

>
> > On Dec 4, 2023, at 9:19 AM, Joshua C. Colp  wrote:
> >
> > No changes have actually occurred as of yet, aside from me sending an
> email, and I also gave 2 months of notice on purpose to allow people to
> think and respond.
> >
>
> In your original email you wrote:
>
> > To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective
> February 1st, 2024.
>
>
> This absolutely gives the impression of a decision/change being made.
>

Okay, I acknowledge that. In my mind with decisions until things are
actually enacted there is always the chance or possibility of change. I
will take that into consideration for the future.

-- 
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Asterisk Project Lead
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread Henning Westerholt

Hello,

thanks for starting the discussion.

I am obviously not a large contributor to asterisk. Nevertheless, I would also 
prefer to stay with a real hosted mailing list for the development 
communication instead of moving to a web forum or another more closed web 
service like github.

Cheers,

Henning


--
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Kamailio services – https://gilawa.com


From: asterisk-dev  On Behalf Of Joshua 
C. Colp
Sent: Montag, 4. Dezember 2023 13:00
To: Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
Subject: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has diminished, 
with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community forums[1]. The 
state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten more complicated - 
emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the mailing lists would 
require a huge time and resource investment, for minimal use.

To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective February 
1st, 2024.

This means the following:

1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
2. The list archives, however, will remain available.

We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list; specifically, 
where to hold discussions in the future. There are a few options:

1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/ already 
that can be used.
2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub project.
3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.

We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, which is 
where everything development-related happens now regardless. This has been set 
up and enabled already.

If you have any input, now is the time to state it.

Cheers,

--
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and 
www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread Fred Posner


> On Dec 4, 2023, at 9:19 AM, Joshua C. Colp  wrote:
> 
> No changes have actually occurred as of yet, aside from me sending an email, 
> and I also gave 2 months of notice on purpose to allow people to think and 
> respond.
> 

In your original email you wrote:

> To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
> February 1st, 2024.


This absolutely gives the impression of a decision/change being made.


Regards,

Fred Posner
p: +1 (352) 664-3733



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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 9:27 AM Fred Posner  wrote:

> Looks like the majority of responses are negative.
>
> I’m also disappointed in this decision/
>
> > Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has
> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community
> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten
> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the
> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for
> minimal use.
>
> I don’t want to get on a “which is better” argument, but will add that
> email is by far the most accessible method of communication available to a
> worldwide audience of different means, languages, and abilities. It is not
> prohibitive by those with limited sight, easily translated, easily indexed
> for searching, and simple for those on even the most basic non-gui systems.
>
> Of course there are also other benefits that I think would only result in
> wasted typing as it seems that this decision done.
>
> I will say the disappointment comes from making such a change without even
> taking the minimal effort of surveying the user/list base/community for
> what methods would be most desired.
>

No changes have actually occurred as of yet, aside from me sending an
email, and I also gave 2 months of notice on purpose to allow people to
think and respond.


>
> The complicated argument, in my opinion, is a bit exaggerated and the
> issues have been handled by so many other groups, that assistance can
> surely be provided if the project having trouble.
>

Yes, it is possible. People have offered alternative suggestions, and I
have made note of them.


>
> To me personally, this shows how important it is to strengthen the
> community as a whole, to check the temperature now and then, and to
> consider feedback/audience/goal prior to making top down decisions.
>
> I remain disappointed; although to be honest, at this point, I’m not
> surprised by these decisions.
>

If you wish to be disappointed, then do so in me - as this is all my work.

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread Fred Posner

Looks like the majority of responses are negative.

I’m also disappointed in this decision/

> Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has 
> diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk community 
> forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, has also gotten 
> more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, etc.. To continue the 
> mailing lists would require a huge time and resource investment, for minimal 
> use.

I don’t want to get on a “which is better” argument, but will add that email is 
by far the most accessible method of communication available to a worldwide 
audience of different means, languages, and abilities. It is not prohibitive by 
those with limited sight, easily translated, easily indexed for searching, and 
simple for those on even the most basic non-gui systems.

Of course there are also other benefits that I think would only result in 
wasted typing as it seems that this decision done.

I will say the disappointment comes from making such a change without even 
taking the minimal effort of surveying the user/list base/community for what 
methods would be most desired.

The complicated argument, in my opinion, is a bit exaggerated and the issues 
have been handled by so many other groups, that assistance can surely be 
provided if the project having trouble.

To me personally, this shows how important it is to strengthen the community as 
a whole, to check the temperature now and then, and to consider 
feedback/audience/goal prior to making top down decisions.

I remain disappointed; although to be honest, at this point, I’m not surprised 
by these decisions.


Regards,

Fred Posner
p: +1 (352) 664-3733



> On Dec 4, 2023, at 8:06 AM, Jonathan Aquilina  wrote:
> 
> I would like to add my 2 cents here as a long tim follower of this list.
> 
> I am aware of another mailing platform for such mailing lists. 
> 
> https://www.sympa.community/
> 
> Would something like this be considered as a replacement from what I am 
> assuming this list is based on which is mailman?
> 
> Also if you do decide to upgrade the infra and mailing list. I would highly 
> recommend it is done internally at sangoma given then there are alot of GDPR 
> and other privacy concerns that woudl arise.
> 
> Regards,
> Jonathan Aquilina
>  From: asterisk-dev  on behalf of 
> Joshua C. Colp 
> Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 14:02
> To: aster...@phreaknet.org 
> Cc: Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future
>  On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:52 AM  wrote:
> I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists are 
> essential for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of non-ephemeral 
> development discussion happens either on IRC or here on the asterisk-dev 
> list - just check the archives to see that it's still active. Most of us 
> are not on the community forums and/or couldn't be bothered to use them. 
> You can go and see now that "Development" on the community forums is 
> basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so trying to push that 
> on everyone is a terrible idea.
> 
> The "Development" category was done on a whim and hasn't really been 
> advertised or mentioned a huge amount. I presented it merely as an option, as 
> it was present.
>  
> Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major loss. 
> Far more *discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but far more 
> *quality* discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being on a mailing 
> list seems to be a natural weedout for junk questions. More serious 
> questions still seem to come through on the mailing list. The community 
> forums is far fuller of useless postings from people who can't tell a 
> hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants to wade through a bunch of 
> low-quality posts to find the few that might have some use. Thus, 
> getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant drop in the 
> average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if the -users 
> list is dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some form.
> 
> To be quite blunt, the quality is better on asterisk-users because few 
> actually use it. In the earlier days the quality wasn't as good when it was 
> actually used more. Even then, the quality still varies on the asterisk-users 
> list.
>  
> I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and no, 
> that's not a proper replacement for a mailing list.
> 
> GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately I 
> think that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells and 
> whistles but most of them aren't as built out as using the proper tool 
> they try to emulate.
> 
> I think #3 is

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread Jonathan Aquilina

I would like to add my 2 cents here as a long tim follower of this list.

I am aware of another mailing platform for such mailing lists.

https://www.sympa.community/

Would something like this be considered as a replacement from what I am 
assuming this list is based on which is mailman?

Also if you do decide to upgrade the infra and mailing list. I would highly 
recommend it is done internally at sangoma given then there are alot of GDPR 
and other privacy concerns that woudl arise.


Regards,

Jonathan Aquilina




From: asterisk-dev  on behalf of Joshua 
C. Colp 
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 14:02
To: aster...@phreaknet.org 
Cc: Asterisk Developers Mailing List 
Subject: Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:52 AM 
mailto:aster...@phreaknet.org>> wrote:
I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists are
essential for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of non-ephemeral
development discussion happens either on IRC or here on the asterisk-dev
list - just check the archives to see that it's still active. Most of us
are not on the community forums and/or couldn't be bothered to use them.
You can go and see now that "Development" on the community forums is
basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so trying to push that
on everyone is a terrible idea.

The "Development" category was done on a whim and hasn't really been advertised 
or mentioned a huge amount. I presented it merely as an option, as it was 
present.


Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major loss.
Far more *discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but far more
*quality* discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being on a mailing
list seems to be a natural weedout for junk questions. More serious
questions still seem to come through on the mailing list. The community
forums is far fuller of useless postings from people who can't tell a
hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants to wade through a bunch of
low-quality posts to find the few that might have some use. Thus,
getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant drop in the
average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if the -users
list is dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some form.

To be quite blunt, the quality is better on asterisk-users because few actually 
use it. In the earlier days the quality wasn't as good when it was actually 
used more. Even then, the quality still varies on the asterisk-users list.


I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and no,
that's not a proper replacement for a mailing list.

GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately I
think that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells and
whistles but most of them aren't as built out as using the proper tool
they try to emulate.

I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the right
job. If you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else do it.
I do a combination of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. Contrary
to the opinions of some, people, especially technical people, have not
"moved on" from mailing lists; they are widely used, and I get hundreds
of emails a day from them that I have a good workflow for.

Most lists I'm on that used to be elsewhere (e.g. Yahoo Groups, Google
Groups, mailman, LISTSERV, other custom or independent platforms) have
now migrated to 
groups.io<https://link.edgepilot.com/s/622a4925/CQLh8Pvm80GUSnor4T2lzQ?u=http://groups.io/>
 and are generally highly satisfied with it
compared to other platforms. It used to be completely free; it's now
free for lists under 100 members, or ones that are grandfathered in. As
the maintainer of several lists there and a member of many more, I've
been pretty happy with it.

I'd suggest creating a list there and letting people on this list
manually opt into it, since there are probably a lot of people on
mailman that aren't active anymore. If it's under 100 members, it's
completely free anyways. If more than 100 people join, that means people
here *really* like mailing lists and find value in them, and I'm sure
Sangoma can afford $20 a month for it, if it really doesn't want to run
mailman lists anymore that badly, and $20 is a small price to keep
developers happy.

Your opinion has been noted.

--
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at 
https://link.edgepilot.com/s/1bcb522c/0XLwQyf7QE6vbZFOkxlodA?u=http://www.sangoma.com/
 and 
https://link.edgepilot.com/s/9ea5ac89/mzGwUzF2PkiBwMdnYDrV4g?u=http://www.asterisk.org/


Links contained in this email have been replaced. If you click on a link in the 
email above, the link will be analyzed for known threats. If a known threat is 
found, you will not be able to proceed to the destination. If suspicious 
c

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 8:52 AM  wrote:

> I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists are
> essential for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of non-ephemeral
> development discussion happens either on IRC or here on the asterisk-dev
> list - just check the archives to see that it's still active. Most of us
> are not on the community forums and/or couldn't be bothered to use them.
> You can go and see now that "Development" on the community forums is
> basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so trying to push that
> on everyone is a terrible idea.
>

The "Development" category was done on a whim and hasn't really been
advertised or mentioned a huge amount. I presented it merely as an option,
as it was present.


>
> Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major loss.
> Far more *discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but far more
> *quality* discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being on a mailing
> list seems to be a natural weedout for junk questions. More serious
> questions still seem to come through on the mailing list. The community
> forums is far fuller of useless postings from people who can't tell a
> hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants to wade through a bunch of
> low-quality posts to find the few that might have some use. Thus,
> getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant drop in the
> average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if the -users
> list is dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some form.
>

To be quite blunt, the quality is better on asterisk-users because few
actually use it. In the earlier days the quality wasn't as good when it was
actually used more. Even then, the quality still varies on the
asterisk-users list.


>
> I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and no,
> that's not a proper replacement for a mailing list.
>
> GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately I
> think that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells and
> whistles but most of them aren't as built out as using the proper tool
> they try to emulate.
>
> I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the right
> job. If you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else do it.
> I do a combination of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. Contrary
> to the opinions of some, people, especially technical people, have not
> "moved on" from mailing lists; they are widely used, and I get hundreds
> of emails a day from them that I have a good workflow for.
>
> Most lists I'm on that used to be elsewhere (e.g. Yahoo Groups, Google
> Groups, mailman, LISTSERV, other custom or independent platforms) have
> now migrated to groups.io and are generally highly satisfied with it
> compared to other platforms. It used to be completely free; it's now
> free for lists under 100 members, or ones that are grandfathered in. As
> the maintainer of several lists there and a member of many more, I've
> been pretty happy with it.
>
> I'd suggest creating a list there and letting people on this list
> manually opt into it, since there are probably a lot of people on
> mailman that aren't active anymore. If it's under 100 members, it's
> completely free anyways. If more than 100 people join, that means people
> here *really* like mailing lists and find value in them, and I'm sure
> Sangoma can afford $20 a month for it, if it really doesn't want to run
> mailman lists anymore that badly, and $20 is a small price to keep
> developers happy.
>

Your opinion has been noted.

-- 
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com and www.asterisk.org
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Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future

2023-12-04 Thread asterisk

I strongly object to not having an asterisk-dev list. Mailing lists are 
essential for FOSS developer discussion. The majority of non-ephemeral 
development discussion happens either on IRC or here on the asterisk-dev 
list - just check the archives to see that it's still active. Most of us 
are not on the community forums and/or couldn't be bothered to use them. 
You can go and see now that "Development" on the community forums is 
basically dead, because nobody wants to use it, so trying to push that 
on everyone is a terrible idea.


Even for users, I think the loss of asterisk-users will be a major loss. 
Far more *discussion* is happening on the Discourse forum, but far more 
*quality* discussion still happens on asterisk-users. Being on a mailing 
list seems to be a natural weedout for junk questions. More serious 
questions still seem to come through on the mailing list. The community 
forums is far fuller of useless postings from people who can't tell a 
hard drive from a memory stick. Nobody wants to wade through a bunch of 
low-quality posts to find the few that might have some use. Thus, 
getting rid of asterisk-users would see a significant drop in the 
average quality of user engagement. But at least, even if the -users 
list is dropped, the -dev list should stick around in some form.


I know the forums can have emails enabled that you can receive, and no, 
that's not a proper replacement for a mailing list.


GitHub Discussions aren't a proper mailing list, either, so ultimately I 
think that will run into the same issue. GitHub has a lot of bells and 
whistles but most of them aren't as built out as using the proper tool 
they try to emulate.


I think #3 is the right choice. It's using the right tool for the right 
job. If you don't want to maintain the lists, have somebody else do it. 
I do a combination of hosted and self-hosted for my own lists. Contrary 
to the opinions of some, people, especially technical people, have not 
"moved on" from mailing lists; they are widely used, and I get hundreds 
of emails a day from them that I have a good workflow for.


Most lists I'm on that used to be elsewhere (e.g. Yahoo Groups, Google 
Groups, mailman, LISTSERV, other custom or independent platforms) have 
now migrated to groups.io and are generally highly satisfied with it 
compared to other platforms. It used to be completely free; it's now 
free for lists under 100 members, or ones that are grandfathered in. As 
the maintainer of several lists there and a member of many more, I've 
been pretty happy with it.


I'd suggest creating a list there and letting people on this list 
manually opt into it, since there are probably a lot of people on 
mailman that aren't active anymore. If it's under 100 members, it's 
completely free anyways. If more than 100 people join, that means people 
here *really* like mailing lists and find value in them, and I'm sure 
Sangoma can afford $20 a month for it, if it really doesn't want to run 
mailman lists anymore that badly, and $20 is a small price to keep 
developers happy.


NA

On 12/4/2023 7:28 AM, Jaco Kroon wrote:


Hi,

My 5c.  Killing the dev list is a bad idea.

Most developers could not care about having to poll forums.  It also 
means that stuff that would previously get an audience will now get none.


github discussions are better than forums at least.

May I inquire as to the problem you're having with the ML? Perhaps I 
might be able to assist ...


Kind regards,
Jaco

On 2023/12/04 14:00, Joshua C. Colp wrote:


Greetings all,

Over the past few years, the use of the Asterisk mailing lists has 
diminished, with far more conversation happening on the Asterisk 
community forums[1]. The state of email, to ensure reliable delivery, 
has also gotten more complicated - emails get caught by spam filters, 
etc.. To continue the mailing lists would require a huge time and 
resource investment, for minimal use.


To that end, we’ve decided to discontinue the mailing lists effective 
February 1st, 2024.


This means the following:

1. Sending and receiving mailing list emails will no longer be possible.
2. The list archives, however, will remain available.

We need to decide the future of the asterisk-dev mailing list; 
specifically, where to hold discussions in the future. There are a 
few options:


1. A “Development” category exists on https://community.asterisk.org/ 
already that can be used.
2. We can use GitHub discussions, which keeps things with the GitHub 
project.

3. We can use a hosted mailing list elsewhere.

We suggest option #2, since it keeps things with the GitHub project, 
which is where everything development-related happens now regardless. 
This has been set up and enabled already.


If you have any input, now is the time to state it.

Cheers,

--
Joshua C. Colp
Asterisk Project Lead
Sangoma Technologies
Check us out at www.sangoma.com  and 
www.asterisk.org 








--

Re: [asterisk-dev] Mailing List Future