t from a reference implementation and the goals should
say that.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Autonomy (Ultraseek)
l you can do with atom:name is print it out.
xml:lang could be useful in deciding between Chinese and Japanese variants
of a character for names.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Autonomy
in the
> meantime? Something like
>
> text/x-wiki+textile
> text/x-wiki+markdown
>
> perhaps?
>
>
>> I think, however, that this is something the format creators should be
>> encouraged to register, or at least suggest a convention for.
>>
>> J
ional
Airport, but that doesn't conflict.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Autonomy
l names of the formats, like
"text/markdown" or "text/textile". The wikis and blogs that I use can be
configured to accept different formats, so "text/wiki" doesn't work.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Autonomy
ferent updated within
>> the feed.
>>
>> I'm not sure how this relates to the thread "More on atom:id handling"
>>
>> Thanks,
>> James
>
>
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Autonomy
es cannot have the same value for
> atom:updated.
I got the same spurious warning. My feed is search results, so it is
perfectly OK for them to have the same atom:updated.
It is OK for the validator to point this out, but it should be informational,
not a warning.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Pr
ng for some publishers
that generate completely legal Atom.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
. So the limitations of some particular
file name implementation are meaningless for namespaces.
Also, some filesystem implementations do allow a file and a folder
with the same name.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
rming server SHOULD
> return the pirate version of the feed with the Content-Language header set to
> "en-pirate" and/or the xml:lang attribute set to "en-pirate" in the root
> element.
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
f the published
> (or updated) element?
That is one kind of order. Other kinds are relevance to a search term
(A9 OpenSearch), editorial importance (BBC News feeds), or datetime of
original publication (nearly all blog feeds, not the same as last update).
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
you would need to invent an order to put unordered items in it.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
y?
I'd return the entry. It is all about the entries. If the list position is
semantically important to the entry, then include a link from the entry to
the list. "This is movie 312 in wunder's queue."
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
of reboot times
for the server.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
how well supported they are. I'd
> prefer a namespaced XML vocabulary.
That was me. I think it makes perfect sense as a PI. But I think reuse
via namespaces is oversold. For example, we didn't even try to use
Dublin Core tags in Atom.
PI support is required by the XML spec -- "mu
ed by robots.txt, and offer some way to override that.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
#images>
It looks like MSNbot does crawl-delay and an extension-only wildcard:
<http://search.msn.com/docs/siteowner.aspx?t=SEARCH_WEBMASTER_REF_RestrictAccessToSite.htm>
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
foseek had a public "Add URL" page. /robots.txt
was honored regardless of whether the link was manually added or automatically
discovered.
A crawling service (robot) should warn users that the URL, Atom or otherwise,
is disallowed by robots.txt. Report that on the status page for that feed.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
:
>
> Bob: It's one thing to ignore a wildcard rule in robots.txt. I don't
> think its a good idea, but I can at least see a valid argument for it.
> However, if I put something like:
>
> User-agent: PubSub
> Disallow: /
>
> ...in my robots.txt and you ignore it,
> Henry
>
> On 25 Aug 2005, at 22:18, James M Snell wrote:
>> At the very least, aggregators should respect robots.txt. Doing so
>> would allow publishers to restrict who is allowed to pull their feed.
>>
>> - James
>>
>
>
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
--On August 25, 2005 3:43:03 PM -0400 Karl Dubost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Le 05-08-25 à 12:51, Walter Underwood a écrit :
>> /robots.txt is one approach. Wouldn't hurt to have a recommendation
>> for whether Atom clients honor that.
>
> Not many honor it.
I
;
>
> ...
>
>
> I dunno. What do you all think? Am I just being silly or does any of this
> actually make a bit of sense?
>
> - James
>
>
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
n't really mean that it had to be XML."
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
or two illegal characters in ASCII or UTF-8.
Of course, a transport level multi-payload system would be preferred.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
application was logfiles in XML.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
to use a sequence of small docs, separated
by ASCII form-feed characters. That character is not legal within an
XML document, so it allows the stream to resyncronize on that character.
Besides, form-feed actually has almost the right semantics -- start a
new page.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
P
;> ...
>> 2005-08-16T12:00:00Z
>> 2
>> ...
>>
>>
>> This is not to be used for caching of Atom documents; nor is it to be
>> used as a mechanism for scheduling updates of local copies of Atom
>> documents.
>>
>> - James
>>
>>
>
>
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
ing that the ID stays the same when
content is relocated.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
s, we'll see LCSH or some other standard category system in those.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
it invalid Atom.
Nice clear wording.
+1 with "MUST be no" changed to "MUST NOT be", as suggested by Aristotle.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Software Architect, Verity
ecause the HTTP header does not reflect the expiration.
Honestly, another reason to put expiration inside the feed is that
HTTP caching is just not used. Well, except to force reloads and show
you new ads. But it is extremely rare to see it per-document cache
information.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
ing
white space around it. Formerly, it was OK as a text construct, but
the white space issues change that.
Also, we should decide whether cache information is part of the signature.
I can see arguments either way.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
, when they have cought up with the changes
> since they last looked at the feed.
I made some proposals for cache control info (expires and max-age).
That might work for this.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
tespace.
Making every single processor strip whitespace smells too much like
the HTML tag soup processors that we all have to maintain. Yuk.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
and-dirty, "Desperate Perl Hacker" environment of the
internet.
The updated warning is just right. Thank you for using Atom, here is
how you can do a better job.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
. Anyone
can write an extension to Atom and use it. Or, they can propose a standard to
the IETF (or another body). The standards process usually means more review,
more interoperability, and more delay in deploying it. Sometimes, the delay
is worth it, and we hope that is true for Atom.
wunder
--
Wa
ement Atom. We need to think more about exactly
what it means for a search engine to implement it, but we'll at
least spider it.
wunder
"Creature with the Atom Brain, why is he acting so strange?"
Roky Erickson
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
ication, this is a legitimate chance for confusion.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
In 4.2.6 atom:id, the last sentence is:
o Ensure that all components of the IRI are appropriately character-
normalized, e.g. by using NFC or NFKC.
"NFC" and "NFKC" need to be defined, with a reference to the Unicode spec.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
ere is a strong
chance we will have to delay being finalized by two weeks, possibly more.
I'm fine with the delay. Two or three weeks on top of 18 months is
not a big deal.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
7;t understand. -Tim
I'm +1, because this is a "when features collide!" issue for Atom.
We don't have to make it a SHOULD or a MUST, just point out that
signed entries need to be standalone if they will ever be used
outside of their feed context.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
he basic definition of digsig; not
> something we need to call out. -Tim
But it is an interoperability consequence of the Atom format and cascaded
values. It would be worth commenting that signed entries need to be standalone
in order to be aggregated in another feed and keep their signature.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
rt this.
If we discover weaknesses in the canonicalization, we'll need
to change Atom anyway. Explicitly making room for future incompatible
canonicalizations doesn't make any sense to me.
What is the point of calling something "Atom" when it uses a
canonicalization which prevents intero
ment it compatibly. Does it apply to ranking, crawl order
or duplicate preference?
An open process would have at least looked at the proposed extensions
for robots.txt and earlier formats like Infoseek sitelist.txt.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
years ago:
<http://web.archive.org/web/19970529104229/http://software.infoseek.com/products/ultraseek/docs/sitelist.html>
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
together a fairly general search web service. It is time to
update that, so maybe I'll look at doing it on Atom.
STARTS is here: <http://www-db.stanford.edu/~gravano/starts_home.html>
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
ering them
to be duplicates."
>
> 2. PaceAtom10
>
> http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceAtom10
>
> We just missed this one in the previous consensus call; seeing lots of +1's
> and no pushback, it's accepted.
>
>
>
>
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
reator? No objections, so far.
I paste together a PACE with the official Dublin Core definition.
Should we mention DC for atom:contributor?
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
ny one of those problems is serious.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
--On May 24, 2005 1:02:54 AM +0100 Bill de hÓra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Inheritance suggests a programming model to allow the evaluator to be coded
> for it.
Which is why it shouldn't be called "inheritance". I'd prefer something
like "cascad
recall. I've been thinking that would be a good idea
> anyhow.
Let's call it atom:creator, then, and actually use the DC definition.
Not because DC is better, but because it makes the metadata crosswalks
(interoperability) work smoothly.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
gnore HTTP-EQUIV, but it is still useful
for passing through things like content-language when there is no HTTP
header present.
For Atom, the caching info would be valid when there is no HTTP cache
header. This is exactly where HTTP-EQUIV is effective today.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal
creator" instead of "author", if anyone wants to go there.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
dates
which represent the last date/time the entry was modified, and there is no
info for LiveJournal.
We abaondoned full LiveJournal compatability a long time ago by requiring
time zones. Older LJ posts do not have time zones. Don't know about the
current ones.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principa
--On Tuesday, May 10, 2005 09:12:09 AM -0700 Paul Hoffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 9:09 PM -0700 5/9/05, Walter Underwood wrote:
Seriously, I don't mind "Atom 1.0" as long as the next version is
"Atom 2.0".
+12
I'd also be happy with just "Atom"
ignore it. Someone
has to be the first to solve it, might as well be us. It is not acceptable
to build formats for the "English Wide Web". That doesn't exist any more.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
am?) goes public. Or because sex sells.
Seriously, I don't mind "Atom 1.0" as long as the next version is
"Atom 2.0". Please don't increment the right-of-the-dot part forever,
because I just had to fix some software that made the (reasonable)
assumption that 5.10==5
get this wrong, Atom-delivered content will look broken in
some languages, and a bunch of extra-spec practice will build up about
how to fix it. Much better to get it right in 1.0.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
s vs. the HTTP header specs. I propose following the HTTP
standard, in saying that the HTTP headers trump anything in the body.
I'll even assume that following the HTTP spec is non-controversial, and
go update the PACE.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
than the widely divergent personal
> and partial views that are obvious in many our conversations today...
Agreed. "A conceptual model of a resource" is up there at the front of
our charter, and if we don't have that, it doesn't seem like the WG is done.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
ome extra bit of software to take that info and put it in the HTTP
Expires or Cache-control headers.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
PaceCaching was not discussed and rejected based on false information.
It was rejected because it was HTTP-specific (it is not), and because
it was non-core (similar features are common in other RSS specs).
It does not interact with other features, so it should be a fairly
clean, quick discussi
possible for RSS sources to be managed by a file-sharing
network such as Gnutella.
Caching information is about knowing when your client cache is stale,
regardless of how you got the feed.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
write a new caching/scheduling
approach, we can expect it to be a 20 page spec, plus an additional 10
pages on how to work with the HTTP model.
See the Notes section here for details on when to use max-age or expires,
and on the problems with calendar-based schemes.
<http://www.intertwing
r pressure to reduce that minimum limit for feeds that are clearly
>> designed for shorter refresh periods - such as the Gmail Atom feeds. I'm
>> reluctant to implement a free-for-all so I'm looking for guidance on how I
>> should tackle this issue.
>>
>> Andy Henderson
>> Constructive IT Advice
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
tinue to show up in
content and cause more work for Bob.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
moved to
results-based billing, paying for clickthrough and conversion.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
values."
That actually specifies something different, the duplication, without
saying whether atom:link is recommended. I recommend adding this text:
"An atom:feed element SHOULD/MAY contain one such atom:link element."
I'll let other people contribute on whether it is SHOULD or
cument in its own
right, and it makes sense to index it under its own URL.
A search engine won't ignore a titles-only feed, but it is less likely
to treat it as a first-class document.
Now I'm going to go re-read the PACE to see where I am on +/-.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
en you summarize the content,
you get nothing at all. It is an effectively, but not literally,
content-free entry.
I'm not being entirely silly here. We could distinguish between
"I am not providing a summary" (no element) and "the summary is void"
(empty summary).
wunde
on.com/2005/04/19#a445
> [2] http://web.resource.org/cc/
> [3] http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg00183.html
>
> Regards,
> -Nikolas 'Atrus' Coukouma
>
>
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
e confused with a media type.
When XHTML 2.0 is ready, we can add a supplemental RFC which defines
a new attribute value for that.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
--On April 8, 2005 8:29:52 PM -0400 Robert Sayre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Please don't respond to me by saying that accessibility is important.
I would never say that. Required or essential, but not merely important.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
ce for accessibility. Same thing for graphs,
charts, audio, and video.
These are top-level requirements. They fit on the WAI pocket card. There
are ten "quick tips" and five of them are about local textual equivalents:
<http://www.w3.org/WAI/References/QuickTips/>
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
at expert enough for you?
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
r atom
extensions were to be defined, the problem would appear with Atom feeds as
well.
bob wyman
[1]
http://spaces.msn.com/members/carnage4life/Blog/cns%211piiOwAp2SJRIfUfD95CnR
Lw%21430.entry
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
guage from the
caching Pace I put together. Or I can, if there is support for it.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
we've done. Just say "Date values
> expressed in this way are also compatible with...".
>
> Graham
>
> [1]http://www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/msg13116.html
>
>
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
an HTML.
That free-range HTML is nasty stuff. In the past week, we had two customers
freely mixing slash and backslash in their URL paths. Sigh.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
in
PaceCaching for an example.
Synchronized clocks are already a SHOULD for HTTP.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
--On February 15, 2005 8:56:24 PM +0100 Anne van Kesteren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Walter Underwood wrote:
>> This also means that Atom cannot be used for BBC News, where order is
>> significant and non-chronological.
>
> Could you elaborate on that?
The BB
Is that OK? If so, where
do we state that in the spec?
As far as I know, this is the only exception to interoperability with
other RSS formats.
This also means that Atom cannot be used for BBC News, where order
is significant and non-chronological.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
he PaceProfile drum to death, I would think that an
> Accessibility profile could be used to specify specific requirements for
> accessible feeds. The core could do exactly as you suggest below -- not
> require summary.
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
red to
interpret the feed has to be in the feed.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect
Verity Ultraseek
this information are those that know about the "profile".
Sounds like a job for .
Or a processing instruction, but I seem to be the only person that likes those.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
endering and reconstruction.
<http://web.resource.org/rss/1.0/spec#s5.3.5>
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
--On Monday, February 07, 2005 12:24:15 PM -0800 Paul Hoffman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 11:07 AM -0800 2/7/05, Walter Underwood wrote:
-1. I don't see the benefit. Clients MAY re-order them, but that
doesn't mean they MUST ignore the order. The publisher may prefer
an order
ts MAY re-order them, but that
doesn't mean they MUST ignore the order. The publisher may prefer
an order which cannot be expressed in the attributes. The Macintouch
and BBC New feeds cited before are good examples.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
te:
At 9:38 AM -0800 2/7/05, Walter Underwood wrote:
I was holding this back as out of scope and too close to the deadline,
but now that we are talking about sliding windows and delayed, cached
state, it is quite relevant.
Sorry, this is too late for consideration for the Atom core. Even if you
ha
algorithms.
<http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/PaceCaching>
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
he last moment before a pending Last
> Call.
>
> bob wyman
>
>
>
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
SHOULD NOTs?
Roughly, a SHOULD or SHOULD NOT can be violated when the implementer
understands and accepts the interoperability limitations they of that
decision.
So, the spec should (must?) explain what those are.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
eam, sure... but the next time an
> entry is added to that feed, I'll have no problem letting the user
> know that this is new stuff.
But if three are added, you can't order those three.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
--On February 4, 2005 11:44:31 AM -0800 Tim Bray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2005, at 11:27 AM, Walter Underwood wrote:
>
>> Is this a joke? This is like saying that the order of the entries in my
>> mailbox is not significant. Note that ordering a mailbox by
curity test for RSS readers.
That is clearly not within Atom's charter, so it doesn't count.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
ch is the main thing
we want to do with them.
I think the section is pretty clear, and I'm picky about specs:
<http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#dateTime>
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
nation
of what you lose without that.
wunder
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
ve database (hold a read lock while you dump the
archive). Insurance against your blog service going away on short notice.
Sarbanes-Oxley compliance for corporate blogs (internal and external).
And of course, so Brewster Kahle can keep a copy. The Wayback Machine
has saved my butt a couple of
ng that they don't want will likely cause us to do a worse job
at carefully reviewing things that we all want.
>
> So, if you have an incomplete Pace now, you have a few more days to complete
> it. Of course, everyone should feel free to continue talking about the
> current
.0 of each should be finished at the same time, to ensure
> that we don't run into any surprises while finishing protocol 1.0 which
> require a format revision (eg. 1.1) in order to make protocol 1.0 work?
--
Walter Underwood
Principal Architect, Verity
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