Re: CoS in the news
At 03:21 PM Wednesday 2/13/2008, Deborah Harrell wrote: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip We Methodists only have the expression Dry as a Methodist picnic to stereotype us. I still grin at the joke (paraphrased): When asked to bring something that expressed their faith to Show and Tell, thus spake the children- Mary: I'm Catholic, and this is a rosary. David: I'm Jewish, and this is a mennorah. Paul: I'm Lutheran, and this is a casserole dish. or Molly: I'm Mormon, and this is a green Jell-O salad . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip We Methodists only have the expression Dry as a Methodist picnic to stereotype us. I still grin at the joke (paraphrased): When asked to bring something that expressed their faith to Show and Tell, thus spake the children- Mary: I'm Catholic, and this is a rosary. David: I'm Jewish, and this is a mennorah. Paul: I'm Lutheran, and this is a casserole dish. Debbi Heretic Lutheran Gaian Deist :) Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
What Anonymous hath wrought: Protests next Sunday in at least 170 cities worldwide with over 300,000 people participating. And a severe shortage of Guy Fawkes masks. xponent Minimums Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 29 Jan 2008, at 01:57, Doug Pensinger wrote: Dave wrote: Yes, it's amazing how a practice of your Church of roughly 100 years ago which, by some accounts, was not all that widely practiced, and by no means _the_ defining characteristic of the Church) is all that most people seem to know about. To some extent, you can thank HBO's Big Love, which, like most interest in Mormon Polygamy, seems to be based on the titillation factor, more than anything else. You don't think that polygamy was a major selling point when attempting to attract adherents? It's also notable that statehood was withheld from Utah long after it was eligible primarily _because_ of polygamy. Brigham Young, one of the most prominent figures in the LDS history, had 52 wives!!! It's interesting that the USA with its supposed religious freedom suppressed LDS polygamy and also doesn't recognise Islamic polygamy although men having (up to) four wives is a part of the religion of 1.61 billion Muslims. Britain, which has established Christian church(es), does tacitly recognise polygamous Muslim marriages that took place in countries where such are permitted. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=POHBDAX2TRRLVQFIQMGCFFWAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2008/02/03/nbenefit103.xml Husbands with multiple wives have been given the go-ahead to claim extra welfare benefits following a year-long Government review, The Sunday Telegraph can reveal. Even though bigamy is a crime in Britain, the decision by ministers means that polygamous marriages can now be recognised formally by the state, so long as the weddings took place in countries where the arrangement is legal. The outcome will chiefly benefit Muslim men with more than one wife, as is permitted under Islamic law. Ministers estimate that up to a thousand polygamous partnerships exist in Britain, although they admit there is no exact record. The decision has been condemned by the Tories, who accused the Government of offering preferential treatment to a particular group, and of setting a precedent that would lead to demands for further changes in British law. New guidelines on income support from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) state: Where there is a valid polygamous marriage the claimant and one spouse will be paid the couple rate ... The amount payable for each additional spouse is presently £33.65. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
At 06:08 PM Friday 2/1/2008, Mauro Diotallevi wrote: On 2/1/08, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition! http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 My favorite may be Bruce Schneier once decrypted a box of AlphaBits. So what did it say in clear? And Schneier's book, _Secrets and Lies: Digital Security in a Networked World_ is well worth the twelve bucks (US) it costs at Amazon. It would be worth it at several multiples of that price. And before this thread veers even further off it's original course, can I ask one question? Did anyone else see the subject heading and think it might be about either a Hugo-winning episode of Babylon 5 or maybe one of the Harry Potter books? No, but then I've been paying attention . . . :P -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
- Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 6:54 PM Subject: Re: CoS in the news On 28 Jan 2008, at 03:47, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] How could a law protect these genuine religions and also ban the original Scientologists at the same time? Easily! You take away the COSI's tax-exempt status away and give it to the splinter groups. That would do more to damage the COS and enhance a measure of justice than just about anything else. BTW, that is basically what Anonymous is trying to achieve by causing *exposure*. My point was - how do you do that? Since we have established that Scientology can pass the religion test it would have to be because it does awful things under the guise of religion. Like the the Unification Church. Or the the Catholic Church sheltering pedophile priests. Or the fact that under Islam the penalty for converting from the true faith is death. Rose sellers Maru. Hare Krishnas they aint! But for some info The Economist spouts: http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10609174 An online onslaught against Scientology A VICIOUS cult run by cynical fraudsters, or a sincerely held religious belief persecuted by zealots? That is the long-standing row about Scientology, founded by the late science-fiction writer, L. Ron Hubbard. In some countries, such as Germany, the group is watched by the security services. In others, such as America and Australia, it has won charitable status as a religion. Until now the fight could mostly be seen as one-sided. Scientology's lawyers are vigorous litigants. The group argues that its internal materials (which claim, among other things, that expensive courses of treatment can help rid people of infestation by alien souls from an extinct civilisation) are commercially confidential and protected by copyright. They react sharply to any perceived libel. As a result, public critics of what they derisively term $cientology risk expensive legal battles. For example, a new unauthorised biography of Tom Cruise by a British author, Andrew Morton, contains detailed and highly critical material about the film star's involvement in Scientology. It is a bestseller in America but has not been published in Britain. The publisher, St Martin's Press, has even asked internet booksellers not to ship it to foreign customers. Though Scientology representatives vehemently deny breaking any laws, critics have claimed that they experience intensive harassment and intimidation. Now Scientology is under attack from a group of internet activists known only as Anonymous. Organised from a Wikipedia-style website (editable by anyone) and through anonymous internet chat rooms, Project Chanology, as the initiative is known, presents no easy target for Scientology's lawyers. It is promoting cyberwarfare techniques normally associated with extortionists, spies and terrorists. Called distributed denial of service attacks, these typically involve using networks of infected computers to bombard the target's websites and servers with bogus requests for data, causing them to crash. Even governments find this troublesome. Anonymous is also hoping to galvanise public opinion with a mass real-world protest outside every Scientology office worldwide on February 10th. But its best weapon may be ridicule. The group got going in reaction to efforts to ban an internal Scientology video of Mr Cruise that leaked onto the internet. The star appears to discuss his beliefs with a degree of incoherence and exaggeration that might lead some to question Scientology's effects on its adherents' sanity. A Scientology spokesman says it has been selectively edited. Several internet sites have taken it down after threats of lawsuits. But it keeps popping up. Same tactics as the Jesuits, right? LULZG xponent I Heir You Leik Mudkips Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 1 Feb 2008, at 03:11, Robert Seeberger wrote: Same tactics as the Jesuits, right? LULZG Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Fri, 1 Feb 2008, William T Goodall wrote: On 1 Feb 2008, at 03:11, Robert Seeberger wrote: Same tactics as the Jesuits, right? LULZG Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition! http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 (I love just hitting the Random Fact link every so often) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 2/1/08, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition! http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 My favorite may be Bruce Schneier once decrypted a box of AlphaBits. And Schneier's book, _Secrets and Lies: Digital Security in a Networked World_ is well worth the twelve bucks (US) it costs at Amazon. It would be worth it at several multiples of that price. And before this thread veers even further off it's original course, can I ask one question? Did anyone else see the subject heading and think it might be about either a Hugo-winning episode of Babylon 5 or maybe one of the Harry Potter books? -- Mauro Diotallevi Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Jan 28, 2008, at 5:57 PM, Doug Pensinger wrote: Dave wrote: Yes, it's amazing how a practice of your Church of roughly 100 years ago which, by some accounts, was not all that widely practiced, and by no means _the_ defining characteristic of the Church) is all that most people seem to know about. To some extent, you can thank HBO's Big Love, which, like most interest in Mormon Polygamy, seems to be based on the titillation factor, more than anything else. You don't think that polygamy was a major selling point when attempting to attract adherents? It's also notable that statehood was withheld from Utah long after it was eligible primarily _because_ of polygamy. Brigham Young, one of the most prominent figures in the LDS history, had 52 wives!!! You are right, of course, that men (and I do mean males, not people) were no less susceptible to titillation in the late 1800s and early 1900s than they are in the late 1900s and early 2000s, and, with hope springing eternal and all that, the difficult realities of having multiple partners may have been harder to bear in mind than the thought of women, women, women. Then again, having dated a Mormon and learned more about the actual and extraordinarily earnest lives led by serious modern followers of Joseph Smith, I am willing to assert that a good number entered into that arrangement because they believed that they were doing God's work on Earth. And a goodly number of modern followers (especially male), are probably tired of this being the only thing most people (think that they) know about their faith. Personally, I think that what occurs between consenting (emphasis on consenting) adults (further emphasis on adults) is their own business and I don't care what they do as long as its within the law. I don't know how much of the show Big Love you've seen, but as Julia implied in her post, it could just as well have been called Big Problems. I think that the attraction of the show is good writing, good acting and a _fascinating_ predicament. Haven't seen the show, but I should say that my employer runs the online community for the show, and among the most popular parts of it seems to be Margene's blog, which seems to center on the more titillating aspects of the arrangement, she being the young-n-sexy member of the trio of wives. Now I'm off to dinner for the 30th anniversary of marriage to my one and only! Congratulations! That's practically like being a grown-up! Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 28 Jan 2008, at 03:47, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] How could a law protect these genuine religions and also ban the original Scientologists at the same time? Easily! You take away the COSI's tax-exempt status away and give it to the splinter groups. That would do more to damage the COS and enhance a measure of justice than just about anything else. BTW, that is basically what Anonymous is trying to achieve by causing *exposure*. My point was - how do you do that? Since we have established that Scientology can pass the religion test it would have to be because it does awful things under the guise of religion. Like the the Unification Church. Or the the Catholic Church sheltering pedophile priests. Or the fact that under Islam the penalty for converting from the true faith is death. Rose sellers Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Jan 29, 2008, at 8:01 PM, pencimen wrote: Dave wrote: Congratulations! That's practically like being a grown-up! I'm sorry? Care to explain that last remark? Celebrating 30 years of marriage represents an achievement of maturity. I was employing a kind of humorous understatement. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
Dave wrote: Congratulations! That's practically like being a grown-up! I'm sorry? Care to explain that last remark? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
Julia Thompson wrote: 1) Whacked my toe yesterday morning, hurt like the dickens, wasn't sure I should try to get X-rays or anything (and I didn't want to, truth be told), so I asked a mailing list and the consensus was what I wrote above. Decided not to go, toe still hurts, but not as badly, and it's all kinds of pretty colors on the top, but looks fine on the bottom. (OK, maybe not all kinds of pretty colors, but there are 3 distinct ones in the blue-purple range.) Can I make a suggestion? Get some plasticine from the kids toy box and make two thin blobs of it, one to fit against your big toe, and one to fit against your third toe. It will feel wierd (even icky) at first, but the support they will provide to the second toe will make all the difference, particularly as you walk. Cheers Russell C. (Been there, saw a podiatrist for that) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
At 06:57 AM Monday 1/28/2008, Russell Chapman wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: 1) Whacked my toe yesterday morning, hurt like the dickens, wasn't sure I should try to get X-rays or anything (and I didn't want to, truth be told), so I asked a mailing list and the consensus was what I wrote above. Decided not to go, toe still hurts, but not as badly, and it's all kinds of pretty colors on the top, but looks fine on the bottom. (OK, maybe not all kinds of pretty colors, but there are 3 distinct ones in the blue-purple range.) Can I make a suggestion? Get some plasticine from the kids toy box and make two thin blobs of it, one to fit against your big toe, and one to fit against your third toe. It will feel wierd (even icky) at first, but the support they will provide to the second toe will make all the difference, particularly as you walk. Hunter orange and lime green ought to set off the colors of the toe nicely. If You're Having A Warm Spell There You Could Wear Sandals To Show It Off Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 06:57 AM Monday 1/28/2008, Russell Chapman wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: 1) Whacked my toe yesterday morning, hurt like the dickens, wasn't sure I should try to get X-rays or anything (and I didn't want to, truth be told), so I asked a mailing list and the consensus was what I wrote above. Decided not to go, toe still hurts, but not as badly, and it's all kinds of pretty colors on the top, but looks fine on the bottom. (OK, maybe not all kinds of pretty colors, but there are 3 distinct ones in the blue-purple range.) Can I make a suggestion? Get some plasticine from the kids toy box and make two thin blobs of it, one to fit against your big toe, and one to fit against your third toe. It will feel wierd (even icky) at first, but the support they will provide to the second toe will make all the difference, particularly as you walk. Hunter orange and lime green ought to set off the colors of the toe nicely. I think we actually have those colors, even! :D (Actually, I'm sure we do, I don't think we've gotten into the last 24-pack yet.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Jan 28, 2008, at 10:03 AM, Mauro Diotallevi wrote: On Jan 27, 2008 10:59 AM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a) *At most* one religion can be true, yet there are thousands of religions. Not necessarily true. See _Job: A Comedy of Justice_, _Stranger in a Strange Land_, or other Heinlein (or many other authors) for SFnal examples of how this might work. And even in the real world, it may not necessarily be a fundamental property of Religion that there be only one, although (too) many make that claim for themselves. Then again, I am at the far-liberal end of Christianity, to the point that there are probably plenty who call themselves Christians who, learning what I believe, would no longer count me among their number. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
At 12:20 PM Monday 1/28/2008, Dave Land wrote: [snip] Then again, I am at the far-liberal end of Christianity, to the point that there are probably plenty who call themselves Christians who, learning what I believe, would no longer count me among their number. Dave At least they don't ask you how many wives you have . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Jan 28, 2008 12:03 PM, Mauro Diotallevi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 27, 2008 10:59 AM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a) *At most* one religion can be true, yet there are thousands of religions. Not necessarily true. See _Job: A Comedy of Justice_, _Stranger in a Strange Land_, or other Heinlein (or many other authors) for SFnal examples of how this might work. Ahem. I forgot the smiley :-) -- Mauro Diotallevi Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Jan 27, 2008 10:59 AM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a) *At most* one religion can be true, yet there are thousands of religions. Not necessarily true. See _Job: A Comedy of Justice_, _Stranger in a Strange Land_, or other Heinlein (or many other authors) for SFnal examples of how this might work. -- Mauro Diotallevi Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Jan 28, 2008, at 1:20 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 12:20 PM Monday 1/28/2008, Dave Land wrote: Then again, I am at the far-liberal end of Christianity, to the point that there are probably plenty who call themselves Christians who, learning what I believe, would no longer count me among their number. At least they don't ask you how many wives you have . . . Yes, it's amazing how a practice of your Church of roughly 100 years ago which, by some accounts, was not all that widely practiced, and by no means _the_ defining characteristic of the Church) is all that most people seem to know about. To some extent, you can thank HBO's Big Love, which, like most interest in Mormon Polygamy, seems to be based on the titillation factor, more than anything else. We Methodists only have the expression Dry as a Methodist picnic to stereotype us. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Dave Land wrote: On Jan 28, 2008, at 1:20 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 12:20 PM Monday 1/28/2008, Dave Land wrote: Then again, I am at the far-liberal end of Christianity, to the point that there are probably plenty who call themselves Christians who, learning what I believe, would no longer count me among their number. At least they don't ask you how many wives you have . . . Yes, it's amazing how a practice of your Church of roughly 100 years ago which, by some accounts, was not all that widely practiced, and by no means _the_ defining characteristic of the Church) is all that most people seem to know about. To some extent, you can thank HBO's Big Love, which, like most interest in Mormon Polygamy, seems to be based on the titillation factor, more than anything else. Apparently that took all the fantasy/romance out of the idea of polygamy or even polyamory for a number of guys, seeing the problems of having more than 1 female sexual partner in the household, and a few people who had had that fantasy gave it up after seeing Big Love. Or so I heard from a source that had no reason to be lying to me Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
Dave wrote: Yes, it's amazing how a practice of your Church of roughly 100 years ago which, by some accounts, was not all that widely practiced, and by no means _the_ defining characteristic of the Church) is all that most people seem to know about. To some extent, you can thank HBO's Big Love, which, like most interest in Mormon Polygamy, seems to be based on the titillation factor, more than anything else. You don't think that polygamy was a major selling point when attempting to attract adherents? It's also notable that statehood was withheld from Utah long after it was eligible primarily _because_ of polygamy. Brigham Young, one of the most prominent figures in the LDS history, had 52 wives!!! Personally, I think that what occurs between consenting (emphasis on consenting) adults (further emphasis on adults is their own business and I don't care what they do as long as its within the law. I don't know how much of the show Big Love you've seen, but as Julia implied in her post, it could just as well have been called Big Problems. I think that the attraction of the show is good writing, good acting and a _fascinating_ predicament. Now I'm off to dinner for the 30th anniversary of marriage to my one and only! Doug Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 09:20 PM Saturday 1/26/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: Any mailing list that you can shoot a quick, Hey, this happened, should I go to the ER? to and get constructive answers is probably going to have at least a minimal health benefit. Also being on a local mailing list with lots of people who have had both good and bad experiences with various doctors will help a lot in selecting a GP or a specialist or a dentist or whatever. (Anyone in or near Round Rock, TX wanting plastic surgery, I can make a recommendation for the surgeon) (And, the concensus as to whether or not to go to the ER with a potential broken toe is, If you want prescription painkillers, sure, but there's not a whole heck of a lot they'll actually *do* for you. So, I'm going to wait until Monday and see how bad it is then, and if it's really bad, call my GP and get a recommendation from *her* as to what to do.) Julia Okay, I think there is a story there waiting to be told. (Possibly two, if you include how you came to be able to recommend a plastic surgeon in Round Rock, TX . . . ) 1) Whacked my toe yesterday morning, hurt like the dickens, wasn't sure I should try to get X-rays or anything (and I didn't want to, truth be told), so I asked a mailing list and the consensus was what I wrote above. Decided not to go, toe still hurts, but not as badly, and it's all kinds of pretty colors on the top, but looks fine on the bottom. (OK, maybe not all kinds of pretty colors, but there are 3 distinct ones in the blue-purple range.) 2) http://www.zurg.net/julia/ljstuff/pregbelly1.jpg My abs separated. Needed to get that (and a resulting hernia) fixed. The general surgeon asked me if I wanted a plastic surgeon involved. I ended up getting a tummy tuck with the hernia repair. So, I've had experience with a plastic surgeon in Round Rock. (I had all my babies at the hospital in Round Rock and had my abdominoplasty there, as well. If anyone needs a recommendation for a GP in Round Rock, I can do that, as well.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Doug Pensinger wrote: Julia wrote: (And, the concensus as to whether or not to go to the ER with a potential broken toe is, If you want prescription painkillers, sure, but there's not a whole heck of a lot they'll actually *do* for you. So, I'm going to wait until Monday and see how bad it is then, and if it's really bad, call my GP and get a recommendation from *her* as to what to do.) Ouch! Hope you're not in too much pain. What happened? Whacked my toe on the lip of a bin. It's the one next to the big toe. The top of the toe is multi-colored now. It hurts, but not as badly as yesterday. I'm taking ibuprofen for it, that's helping enough with the pain. Just can't run and have to be careful how I walk. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 27 Jan 2008, at 03:28, Robert Seeberger wrote: On 1/26/2008 8:47:30 PM, William T Goodall ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On 27 Jan 2008, at 02:27, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. That might be a reasonable response if Scientology were in fact a religion. What makes you think that it isn't? Considering your point of view on all things religious, this could be a difficult discussion. So if you consider The Church Of The Jedi or Pastafarianism to be bonafide religions, then there is no point in us wasting our time. 1) The intent of the founder of a religion is not part of the definition of whether it is or is not a religion for very obvious reasons: a) We can't know the real intent of the founder. b) Discussion of religion degenerates into attacks on the character of the founders rather than the practices of the religion. 2) Whether the founder of a religion was a fraud who made it up for selfish purposes or a genuinely insane person with voices in his head is neither here nor there - the religion is the same sick nonsense either way. 3) An inscrutable god might choose a false prophet to deliver true religion. Since inscrutable gods do those kind of things :) 4) Just because a religion is made up as a joke and everyone knows it doesn't mean it's not a real religion e.g. Discordianism. Being *actually true* can't be part of the definition of religion for obvious reasons. a) *At most* one religion can be true, yet there are thousands of religions. If you do indeed draw a line between organizations with origins that arise from actual faith and those who are scams perpetrated for various reasons when defining religions then we might have something to discuss. So Christianity is a scam because of the existence of greedy lying televangelists and mega-church pastors? Or it's not a scam despite them since some people genuinely believe it? But some people genuinely believe Scientology too. Subtleties Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
- Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: CoS in the news On 27 Jan 2008, at 03:28, Robert Seeberger wrote: On 1/26/2008 8:47:30 PM, William T Goodall ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On 27 Jan 2008, at 02:27, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. That might be a reasonable response if Scientology were in fact a religion. What makes you think that it isn't? Considering your point of view on all things religious, this could be a difficult discussion. So if you consider The Church Of The Jedi or Pastafarianism to be bonafide religions, then there is no point in us wasting our time. 1) The intent of the founder of a religion is not part of the definition of whether it is or is not a religion for very obvious reasons: a) We can't know the real intent of the founder. b) Discussion of religion degenerates into attacks on the character of the founders rather than the practices of the religion. 2) Whether the founder of a religion was a fraud who made it up for selfish purposes or a genuinely insane person with voices in his head is neither here nor there - the religion is the same sick nonsense either way. 3) An inscrutable god might choose a false prophet to deliver true religion. Since inscrutable gods do those kind of things :) 4) Just because a religion is made up as a joke and everyone knows it doesn't mean it's not a real religion e.g. Discordianism. Being *actually true* can't be part of the definition of religion for obvious reasons. a) *At most* one religion can be true, yet there are thousands of religions. So... you concede there are no grounds for discussion.G Oh, BTW... 1 Apple 1a Apple 1b Apple vs MS 2 Apple vs MS vs Linux 3 BEOS 4 OSX 4a Unix and any derivation thereof G If you do indeed draw a line between organizations with origins that arise from actual faith and those who are scams perpetrated for various reasons when defining religions then we might have something to discuss. So Christianity is a scam because of the existence of greedy lying televangelists and mega-church pastors? Or it's not a scam despite them since some people genuinely believe it? But some people genuinely believe Scientology too. Even you know that not all Christianity is televangelists and mega-churches, but you must be aware that all of Scientology is a bloated pyramid scheme regardless of what the common member believes. Lots of Christians have a low opinion of televangelists and the like and don't pay them heed. A Scientologist isn't allowed that freedom. xponent Totalitarian Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 27 Jan 2008, at 20:37, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: CoS in the news On 27 Jan 2008, at 03:28, Robert Seeberger wrote: On 1/26/2008 8:47:30 PM, William T Goodall ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On 27 Jan 2008, at 02:27, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. That might be a reasonable response if Scientology were in fact a religion. What makes you think that it isn't? Considering your point of view on all things religious, this could be a difficult discussion. So if you consider The Church Of The Jedi or Pastafarianism to be bonafide religions, then there is no point in us wasting our time. 1) The intent of the founder of a religion is not part of the definition of whether it is or is not a religion for very obvious reasons: a) We can't know the real intent of the founder. b) Discussion of religion degenerates into attacks on the character of the founders rather than the practices of the religion. 2) Whether the founder of a religion was a fraud who made it up for selfish purposes or a genuinely insane person with voices in his head is neither here nor there - the religion is the same sick nonsense either way. 3) An inscrutable god might choose a false prophet to deliver true religion. Since inscrutable gods do those kind of things :) 4) Just because a religion is made up as a joke and everyone knows it doesn't mean it's not a real religion e.g. Discordianism. Being *actually true* can't be part of the definition of religion for obvious reasons. a) *At most* one religion can be true, yet there are thousands of religions. So... you concede there are no grounds for discussion.G No, I'm saying trying to decide which religions are genuine gets you into a pickle like Texas vs Unitarianism so anyone interested in defending the freedom of religion shouldn't really go down that road. I, on the other hand, would find it hilariously funny if America (of all places!) tried to ban some religions for being fake. Oh, BTW... 1 Apple 1a Apple 1b Apple vs MS 2 Apple vs MS vs Linux 3 BEOS 4 OSX 4a Unix and any derivation thereof G That's worse than a car analogy! If you do indeed draw a line between organizations with origins that arise from actual faith and those who are scams perpetrated for various reasons when defining religions then we might have something to discuss. So Christianity is a scam because of the existence of greedy lying televangelists and mega-church pastors? Or it's not a scam despite them since some people genuinely believe it? But some people genuinely believe Scientology too. Even you know that not all Christianity is televangelists and mega-churches, but you must be aware that all of Scientology is a bloated pyramid scheme regardless of what the common member believes. Lots of Christians have a low opinion of televangelists and the like and don't pay them heed. A Scientologist isn't allowed that freedom. Catholics? Let's suppose the Scientologists have a schism. Are they OK now because the different branches no longer agree? Reformation Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, William T Goodall wrote: Let's suppose the Scientologists have a schism. Are they OK now because the different branches no longer agree? If the Scientologists have a schism, each side's lawyers will be so busy suing the other side that it'll all collapse sooner rather than later, and that will be the end of that. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 27 Jan 2008, at 21:49, Julia Thompson wrote: On Sun, 27 Jan 2008, William T Goodall wrote: Let's suppose the Scientologists have a schism. Are they OK now because the different branches no longer agree? If the Scientologists have a schism, each side's lawyers will be so busy suing the other side that it'll all collapse sooner rather than later, and that will be the end of that. Or they could be like the Sunni and Shi'a. Same but different Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
William wrote: On 27 Jan 2008, at 21:49, Julia Thompson wrote: If the Scientologists have a schism, each side's lawyers will be so busy suing the other side that it'll all collapse sooner rather than later, and that will be the end of that. Or they could be like the Sunni and Shi'a. Same but different Maru. From Wiki: Although Scientology is most often used as shorthand for the Church of Scientology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology, a number of groups practice Scientology and Dianetics outside of the official Church. Some groups are breakaways from the original Church while others have started up independently. The Church labels these as apostateshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy (or squirrels in Scientology jargonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_terminology) and often subjects them to considerable legal and social pressure. These groups avoid the name Scientology so as to keep from being suedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit, instead referring to themselves collectively as the Free Zonehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_%28Scientology%29. Such groups include Ron's Org and the International Freezone Association, among others. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 28 Jan 2008, at 01:19, Doug Pensinger wrote: William wrote: On 27 Jan 2008, at 21:49, Julia Thompson wrote: If the Scientologists have a schism, each side's lawyers will be so busy suing the other side that it'll all collapse sooner rather than later, and that will be the end of that. Or they could be like the Sunni and Shi'a. Same but different Maru. From Wiki: Although Scientology is most often used as shorthand for the Church of Scientology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology, a number of groups practice Scientology and Dianetics outside of the official Church. Some groups are breakaways from the original Church while others have started up independently. The Church labels these as apostateshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy (or squirrels in Scientology jargonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_terminology) and often subjects them to considerable legal and social pressure. These groups avoid the name Scientology so as to keep from being suedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit, instead referring to themselves collectively as the Free Zonehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_%28Scientology%29. Such groups include Ron's Org and the International Freezone Association, among others. Thanks Doug! Facts trump speculation every time, and it's nice that the facts line up on my side of the argument :) Heresies Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 28 Jan 2008, at 01:19, Doug Pensinger wrote: William wrote: On 27 Jan 2008, at 21:49, Julia Thompson wrote: If the Scientologists have a schism, each side's lawyers will be so busy suing the other side that it'll all collapse sooner rather than later, and that will be the end of that. Or they could be like the Sunni and Shi'a. Same but different Maru. From Wiki: Although Scientology is most often used as shorthand for the Church of Scientology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology, a number of groups practice Scientology and Dianetics outside of the official Church. Some groups are breakaways from the original Church while others have started up independently. The Church labels these as apostateshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy (or squirrels in Scientology jargonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_terminology) and often subjects them to considerable legal and social pressure. These groups avoid the name Scientology so as to keep from being suedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit, instead referring to themselves collectively as the Free Zonehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_%28Scientology%29. Such groups include Ron's Org and the International Freezone Association, among others. Clearly these schismatic groups can't be termed fake religions under the criteria Rob was suggesting and yet they share most of the beliefs of the original group. How could a law protect these genuine religions and also ban the original Scientologists at the same time? Catholics/Protestants Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
- Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 7:55 PM Subject: Re: CoS in the news On 28 Jan 2008, at 01:19, Doug Pensinger wrote: William wrote: On 27 Jan 2008, at 21:49, Julia Thompson wrote: If the Scientologists have a schism, each side's lawyers will be so busy suing the other side that it'll all collapse sooner rather than later, and that will be the end of that. Or they could be like the Sunni and Shi'a. Same but different Maru. From Wiki: Although Scientology is most often used as shorthand for the Church of Scientology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology, a number of groups practice Scientology and Dianetics outside of the official Church. Some groups are breakaways from the original Church while others have started up independently. The Church labels these as apostateshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy (or squirrels in Scientology jargonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_terminology) and often subjects them to considerable legal and social pressure. These groups avoid the name Scientology so as to keep from being suedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit, instead referring to themselves collectively as the Free Zonehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_%28Scientology%29. Such groups include Ron's Org and the International Freezone Association, among others. Clearly these schismatic groups can't be termed fake religions under the criteria Rob was suggesting and yet they share most of the beliefs of the original group. To some degree I would agree here, but even that is dependent on how the splinter groups conduct their business. Still, any flavor of Scientology is more of a philosophical movement than an actual religion in the traditional sense even though it might satisfy a clinical definition say.the way a cargo cult would. From: http://www.modemac.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Is_Scientology_a_religion The actions of the Church of Scientology have brought a storm of criticism upon the organization. Scientologists frequently compare the criticism of Scientology to the persecution of members of the Jewish faith, but the many actions of the organization have been decidedly non-religious in nature. However, there are people who believe in the power of Dianetics. These people, who categorize themselves as the Free Zone, have broken away from the fascist control of Scientology; instead, they are applying the tech of Hubbard's writings to their own beliefs, transforming it into a philosophy of their own. The official Church of Scientology is terrified of the Free Zone and its appeal, for they believe that if knowledge of the Free Zone were to spread through the ranks of the Church, many people would break away from Scientology and form their own individual factions of Scientology. These denominations would be independent of Scientology's control and this means that the Church of Scientology would not receive any money from the Free Zone. This concept contrasts with Hubbard's official policy, so the Church of Scientology is doing everything it can to wipe out the Free Zone. But as with its attempts to silence its critics, the Church of Scientology is failing. The Free Zone is expanding, and despite the best efforts of the official Church of Scientology to present itself as a religion, the Free Zone may well be the true source for the religion of Scientology. I think this points to the difference in our opinions on the subject. You see Scientology as a religion first and as a steaming pile of totalitarian crap second. I see Scientology as a totalitarian mind-control/pyramid-scheme first and any expectations of a religious nature only at the fringes of their concern, and that only to the purpose of the preservation of their tax-exempt status here in the US. How could a law protect these genuine religions and also ban the original Scientologists at the same time? Easily! You take away the COSI's tax-exempt status away and give it to the splinter groups. That would do more to damage the COS and enhance a measure of justice than just about anything else. BTW, that is basically what Anonymous is trying to achieve by causing *exposure*. xponent About Money Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: CoS in the news
Better idea - remove tax exemptions and other special benefits for religions and quasi-religious organistions, with the exception of charitable ventures (which must be purely charitable subsidiaries of or wholly separate ventures). And only those over twenty-one should be allowed access to churches/ temples/ashrams/mosques/synagogues and other places where the evil nonsense of religion is purveyed or to the vile corrupting texts of religion. Now there's a great idea! And, how about displaying a health warning outside churches/temples/etc., like the warnings on cigarette packets? Curtis Someone tell me what the story is with Maru? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 09:31 PM Friday 1/25/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: What's wrong with a lapdancer drinking Scotch? Julia Spilling it? Especially if it's on the rocks? You have a point there. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Jan 26, 2008, at 12:58 AM, Curtis Burisch wrote: Better idea - remove tax exemptions and other special benefits for religions and quasi-religious organistions, with the exception of charitable ventures (which must be purely charitable subsidiaries of or wholly separate ventures). And only those over twenty-one should be allowed access to churches/ temples/ashrams/mosques/synagogues and other places where the evil nonsense of religion is purveyed or to the vile corrupting texts of religion. Now there's a great idea! And, how about displaying a health warning outside churches/temples/etc., like the warnings on cigarette packets? Unfortunately for this plan, as I seem to recall having seen discussed here recently, presence of religious faith has been shown to have beneficial health effects. I am far too lazy to look it up for you. Someone tell me what the story is with Maru? Here's a link to an answer given on this list in October: http://www.mccmedia.com/pipermail/brin-l/Week-of- Mon-20071008/140300.html It has to do with Japanese ship names and some sort of friendly rivalry between this and the Culture mailing list. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
- Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 7:01 PM Subject: Re: CoS in the news On 25 Jan 2008, at 23:18, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: RE: CoS in the news Because I love you guys, I give you the CS orientation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJtUDcm3bBw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfiZehbTAxU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7W9Duq145Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdSqzl9QYTQ It's pretty funny stuff. Because I love my country, I ask that you read this: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=57816postcount=1 Right now I am angry, very angry. And to some degree I am angry with myself for forgetting just how bad these people are. All my life we have talked about the methods the evil people in the world use to subjugate those with less power. And we felt more that a bit superior because we were Americans and we didn't cotton to such behavior. But here we see that the evils we abhor have taken root in our own nation and are spreading out through the world from *our* soil. It is small wonder that the nation of Germany has set to outlaw this group. In my opinion we should do the same. Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. That might be a reasonable response if Scientology were in fact a religion. xponent Tards Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
- Original Message - From: Curtis Burisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion' brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 2:58 AM Subject: RE: CoS in the news Curtis Someone tell me what the story is with Maru? I really ned to put this on a webpage.G What is Maru? H..good question. Maru is a ship, a Japanese ship. Maru is also a defense against the cultural imperialism of the Culture mailing list with their GSVs and ROUs.(That's a different discussion thoughG) Maru is a way of adding remarks at the end of a message in a way that is distinctive and exclusive to Brin-L. If you see someone who uses a Maru shipname, they are from Brin-L. Maru is a means to crack a joke, make an observation, or poke a stick in someone's eye. And below is the background from which it was derived. *** The word maru originated in the seventh century and has since come to serve as a popular name for a host of Japanese vessels. The first ship to use the suffix is said to have been the 16th century ship called the Nipon Maru, built by the legendary Toyotomi Hideyoschi. However, despite its widespread use, the word has never been graced with a definitive definition. Our attempts to muster a universal meaning of the term maru have all ended in frustration, with each possibility smothered in a down-pour of vaguery. For instance, one Japanese reference worker gave as many as fourteen meanings for maru, while another offered at least five additional meanings without including all the other fourteen. These misunderstandings and discrepancies have arisen from the fact that maru is a word laced with suggestiveness. Here is a selection of some of the explanations we have found. Possible meanings The term maru originally seemed to act as a form of compliment when attached to certain personal names. For example, people seemed to be bestowing respect upon the eighth century poet Hitomaru Kikinomoto by attaching the term to his name. It could also be seen as a term of endearment rather like a diminutive, as in the juvenile name Ushiwakamaru, of the twelfth-century general Yoshitsune Minamoto. Gradually the word was thrown to the dogs, literally, as people became accustomed to bestowing it upon their pet animals. Other names which received the maru blessing included a precious utensil used perhaps in some kind of tea ceremony or even the favoured tool of a deft craftsman. Another example of this maru phenomenon can be found in the mighty sword Mura-same-Maru; this famous blade of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries was supposed to be so potent that whoever owned it, regardless of his own intent, was destined to kill somebody sooner or later. The term maru also became associated with the concept of a circle. This circular affinity suggested completeness, entirety, wholeness; notions which the image of a circle seems to symbolise. Indeed, the connotation of 'wholeness' perhaps led to the use of maru to mean 'one entire hour' and also as a term for the fanciful frying of a 'whole' animal, as opposed to a mere handful of giblets. In addition to all these other meanings, it also has an association with 'dust', while at the same time referring to 'those naive in love', hence the wistful phrase dusty lover. Maru and ships Having sashayed through the multifarious meanings of maru, it is now time to cut to the chase, examining it in the context of ships. The use of maru in a ship name would seem to express the hope that the ship will defend those aboard against all perils of the sea, being as complete as a circle, as trustworthy as a sword and as virile as a master craftsman's favourite tool. In addition to this, it also carried a feeling of attachment or endearment, such as that felt by one dusty lover for another. Also, unlike most other countries, a ship in Japan is referred to as a male and in adding maru to the ships name, as was done with young boys in olden times, the ship was protected from harm. In the 1905 edition of Basil Hall Chamberlain's Things Japanese he says of `maru' It is often asked: what does the word Maru mean in the names of ships ...? His answer is: a.. the real meaning is obscure b.. it is probably merging of two words: `maru' and `maro', which was a term of endearment. c.. it used to be used for swords, armour, parts of castles, etc. too. *** From India, the Sanskrit manu also traveled east. In Japan, manu became maru, a word which is included in the name of most Japanese ships. In ancient Chinese mythology, the god Hakudo Maru came down from heaven to teach people how to make ships. This name could well relate to Noah, the first shipbuilder. The custom of including maru
Re: CoS in the news
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Curtis Burisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion' brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 2:58 AM Subject: RE: CoS in the news Curtis Someone tell me what the story is with Maru? I really ned to put this on a webpage.G I agree. :) It would be nice to just have a link to it somewhere and when someone asked, they'd just get 10 short responses containing the link from 10 different people. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 27 Jan 2008, at 02:27, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. That might be a reasonable response if Scientology were in fact a religion. What makes you think that it isn't? Quacks like a duck Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
William wrote: snip So while the data suggest some health benefits from social engagement, they are anything but a ringing endorsement of the health benefits of religion or religious faith, per se. It would make sense to me that individuals with some sort of social support group might have lower stress and as a result longer lifespan, but of course the support group wouldn't have to be a religion. Hey, maybe mailing lists have health benefits. 8^) Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 27 Jan 2008, at 01:43, Dave Land wrote: On Jan 26, 2008, at 12:58 AM, Curtis Burisch wrote: Better idea - remove tax exemptions and other special benefits for religions and quasi-religious organistions, with the exception of charitable ventures (which must be purely charitable subsidiaries of or wholly separate ventures). And only those over twenty-one should be allowed access to churches/ temples/ashrams/mosques/synagogues and other places where the evil nonsense of religion is purveyed or to the vile corrupting texts of religion. Now there's a great idea! And, how about displaying a health warning outside churches/temples/etc., like the warnings on cigarette packets? Unfortunately for this plan, as I seem to recall having seen discussed here recently, presence of religious faith has been shown to have beneficial health effects. I am far too lazy to look it up for you. http://www.tjols.com/article-450.html Proponents of bringing religion into medicine cite research showing that religious devotion is associated with better health outcomes. But overwhelmingly, the evidence is weak and inconclusive, marred by serious flaws in research methods. Even the best review article in the field, published by Lynda Powell in the American Psychologist in 2003, found that in all but 43 of the hundreds of studies examined, the research methods were so flawed that they couldn’t definitively determine that religion and not other factors, including chance, was responsible for the outcomes. Of all the studies that attempt to establish a connection between religion and health, those finding an association between attendance at religious services and life expectancy are, without question, the strongest. In one of the best studies, a survey of more than 21,000 subjects, R. A. Hummer and colleagues found that frequency of religious attendance was inversely associated with mortality. However, the protective effect was entirely absent for patients with cancer, and only marginally significant for patients with heart disease, the two leading causes of death in the United States. A report published in the American Journal of Public Health in 1998 showed that, in a community sample of 2,023 affluent, largely white adults over age 55 in Marin County, California, religious attendance was associated with reduced mortality. However, the magnitude and significance of the effect varied depending upon the definition of attendance, and whether the model included other indices of social engagement. So while the data suggest some health benefits from social engagement, they are anything but a ringing endorsement of the health benefits of religion or religious faith, per se. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Doug Pensinger wrote: William wrote: snip So while the data suggest some health benefits from social engagement, they are anything but a ringing endorsement of the health benefits of religion or religious faith, per se. It would make sense to me that individuals with some sort of social support group might have lower stress and as a result longer lifespan, but of course the support group wouldn't have to be a religion. Hey, maybe mailing lists have health benefits. 8^) Doug That would depend on the mailing list. Any mailing list that you can shoot a quick, Hey, this happened, should I go to the ER? to and get constructive answers is probably going to have at least a minimal health benefit. Also being on a local mailing list with lots of people who have had both good and bad experiences with various doctors will help a lot in selecting a GP or a specialist or a dentist or whatever. (Anyone in or near Round Rock, TX wanting plastic surgery, I can make a recommendation for the surgeon) (And, the concensus as to whether or not to go to the ER with a potential broken toe is, If you want prescription painkillers, sure, but there's not a whole heck of a lot they'll actually *do* for you. So, I'm going to wait until Monday and see how bad it is then, and if it's really bad, call my GP and get a recommendation from *her* as to what to do.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 1/26/2008 8:47:30 PM, William T Goodall ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On 27 Jan 2008, at 02:27, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. That might be a reasonable response if Scientology were in fact a religion. What makes you think that it isn't? Considering your point of view on all things religious, this could be a difficult discussion. So if you consider The Church Of The Jedi or Pastafarianism to be bonafide religions, then there is no point in us wasting our time. If you do indeed draw a line between organizations with origins that arise from actual faith and those who are scams perpetrated for various reasons when defining religions then we might have something to discuss. I would expect you are aware of the history of Sci/Dia but if not, as Anonymous says, Google is your friend. Quacks like a duck Maru. Sounds more like the barking of Lawyers to my ear. Have you seen Anonymous' Response To The Media? This, to me, is the single most science fictional real-life-event of my lifetime. Offhand I cannot recall anything that resonated with my favorite genre the way this story does. You always hear people say You can't make this stuff up, but in this case every aspect of it is like something made up. Probably because every aspect of it is. xponent The Silence Of The Scientologists Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 27 Jan 2008, at 03:28, Robert Seeberger wrote: On 1/26/2008 8:47:30 PM, William T Goodall ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On 27 Jan 2008, at 02:27, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. That might be a reasonable response if Scientology were in fact a religion. What makes you think that it isn't? Considering your point of view on all things religious, this could be a difficult discussion. So if you consider The Church Of The Jedi or Pastafarianism to be bonafide religions, then there is no point in us wasting our time. If you do indeed draw a line between organizations with origins that arise from actual faith and those who are scams perpetrated for various reasons when defining religions then we might have something to discuss. That's not a useful distinction because the bona fides of e.g. Joseph Smith or Muhammad are unknowable but the religions they founded are nevertheless 'genuine'. Whatever that's worth for made-up nonsense. Prophets/profits Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
At 09:20 PM Saturday 1/26/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, Doug Pensinger wrote: William wrote: snip So while the data suggest some health benefits from social engagement, they are anything but a ringing endorsement of the health benefits of religion or religious faith, per se. It would make sense to me that individuals with some sort of social support group might have lower stress and as a result longer lifespan, but of course the support group wouldn't have to be a religion. Hey, maybe mailing lists have health benefits. 8^) Doug That would depend on the mailing list. Any mailing list that you can shoot a quick, Hey, this happened, should I go to the ER? to and get constructive answers is probably going to have at least a minimal health benefit. Also being on a local mailing list with lots of people who have had both good and bad experiences with various doctors will help a lot in selecting a GP or a specialist or a dentist or whatever. (Anyone in or near Round Rock, TX wanting plastic surgery, I can make a recommendation for the surgeon) (And, the concensus as to whether or not to go to the ER with a potential broken toe is, If you want prescription painkillers, sure, but there's not a whole heck of a lot they'll actually *do* for you. So, I'm going to wait until Monday and see how bad it is then, and if it's really bad, call my GP and get a recommendation from *her* as to what to do.) Julia Okay, I think there is a story there waiting to be told. (Possibly two, if you include how you came to be able to recommend a plastic surgeon in Round Rock, TX . . . ) -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
At 09:24 AM Saturday 1/26/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 09:31 PM Friday 1/25/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: What's wrong with a lapdancer drinking Scotch? Julia Spilling it? Especially if it's on the rocks? You have a point there. :) Julia FWIW, my original thought was simply that spilling a cold drink (e.g., with ice in it) on somebody's lap would be more uncomfortable than one at room temperature. As I started to reply, I recalled the term Scotch on the rocks for it being served over ice cubes. It wasn't until I had started typing that it occurred to me that it could have a second interpretation in this instance . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
Julia wrote: (And, the concensus as to whether or not to go to the ER with a potential broken toe is, If you want prescription painkillers, sure, but there's not a whole heck of a lot they'll actually *do* for you. So, I'm going to wait until Monday and see how bad it is then, and if it's really bad, call my GP and get a recommendation from *her* as to what to do.) Ouch! Hope you're not in too much pain. What happened? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 26 Jan 2008, at 01:32, Charlie Bell wrote: On 26/01/2008, at 12:01 PM, William T Goodall wrote: Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. Because that's worked so well in the USSR and Communist China. Better idea - remove tax exemptions and other special benefits for religions and quasi-religious organistions, with the exception of charitable ventures (which must be purely charitable subsidiaries of or wholly separate ventures). And only those over twenty-one should be allowed access to churches/ temples/ashrams/mosques/synagogues and other places where the evil nonsense of religion is purveyed or to the vile corrupting texts of religion. Worse than lapdancers with hard liquor Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008, William T Goodall wrote: On 26 Jan 2008, at 01:32, Charlie Bell wrote: On 26/01/2008, at 12:01 PM, William T Goodall wrote: Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. Because that's worked so well in the USSR and Communist China. Better idea - remove tax exemptions and other special benefits for religions and quasi-religious organistions, with the exception of charitable ventures (which must be purely charitable subsidiaries of or wholly separate ventures). And only those over twenty-one should be allowed access to churches/ temples/ashrams/mosques/synagogues and other places where the evil nonsense of religion is purveyed or to the vile corrupting texts of religion. Worse than lapdancers with hard liquor Maru. What's wrong with a lapdancer drinking Scotch? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
At 09:31 PM Friday 1/25/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: What's wrong with a lapdancer drinking Scotch? Julia Spilling it? Especially if it's on the rocks? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 25 Jan 2008, at 23:18, Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: RE: CoS in the news Because I love you guys, I give you the CS orientation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJtUDcm3bBw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfiZehbTAxU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7W9Duq145Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdSqzl9QYTQ It's pretty funny stuff. Because I love my country, I ask that you read this: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=57816postcount=1 Right now I am angry, very angry. And to some degree I am angry with myself for forgetting just how bad these people are. All my life we have talked about the methods the evil people in the world use to subjugate those with less power. And we felt more that a bit superior because we were Americans and we didn't cotton to such behavior. But here we see that the evils we abhor have taken root in our own nation and are spreading out through the world from *our* soil. It is small wonder that the nation of Germany has set to outlaw this group. In my opinion we should do the same. Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
- Original Message - From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: RE: CoS in the news Because I love you guys, I give you the CS orientation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJtUDcm3bBw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfiZehbTAxU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7W9Duq145Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdSqzl9QYTQ It's pretty funny stuff. Because I love my country, I ask that you read this: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=57816postcount=1 Right now I am angry, very angry. And to some degree I am angry with myself for forgetting just how bad these people are. All my life we have talked about the methods the evil people in the world use to subjugate those with less power. And we felt more that a bit superior because we were Americans and we didn't cotton to such behavior. But here we see that the evils we abhor have taken root in our own nation and are spreading out through the world from *our* soil. It is small wonder that the nation of Germany has set to outlaw this group. In my opinion we should do the same. xponent Hard To Do Though Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: CoS in the news
On 26/01/2008, at 12:01 PM, William T Goodall wrote: Just ban all religions. That would solve the problem. Because that's worked so well in the USSR and Communist China. Better idea - remove tax exemptions and other special benefits for religions and quasi-religious organistions, with the exception of charitable ventures (which must be purely charitable subsidiaries of or wholly separate ventures). Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: CoS in the news
Because I love you guys, I give you the CS orientation video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJtUDcm3bBw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfiZehbTAxU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7W9Duq145Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdSqzl9QYTQ It's pretty funny stuff. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
