Re: [EVDL] Sarasota Mechanic help
On 12 Nov 2021 at 23:28, Frank Bonilla via EV wrote: > We are looking for some mechanical help with our project in the Sarasota, Fl > area. Thanks. Hi Frank. The closest possibility I can think of (and recommend) would be Steve Clunn in Crystal River. He's not very close, but maybe you could work something out. Steve is on this list. and you can find his website by searching for his business name, Green Shed Conversions. You might also contact the Electric Auto Association, electricauto.org - their website lists several chapters in Florida, with contact information for each. Maybe one of them can give you a reference. Good luck! I hope you find someone to help you out. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The problem with the future is that it keeps turning into the present. -- Bill Watterson, "Calvin and Hobbes" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EV album down?
I'm getting "Connection reset while the page was loading" here. That's at lest somewhat more promising than "Can't find the server" or "This domain is for sale." David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Our jobs are not supposed to bring us enlightenment. They are supposed to bring us money and stolen office supplies. If we are going to perform any ritual at work, let it be to invite a demon into the sacred circle to smite our enemy, Liz in Human Resources. - Jessa Crispin = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EV album down?
On 13 Nov 2021 at 12:13, nathan christiansn via EV wrote: > This morning, I noticed that the EV album website would not load no matter > what device I tried to access it on. Is anyone else having this problem or is > it just me? It's not working for me either. I'm far from an expert on these matters so maybe someone who is will weigh in, but a whois inquiry shows that evalbum.com's domain registration is current. https://www.whois.com/whois/evalbum.com The DNS servers are given as dns*.name-services.com - which I think are the registrar's own servers. It may be that the domain forwards to another page, which itself is down. Permanently or temporarily, who knows? The album is a useful EV resource and I'd certainly hate to lose it. It was sad enough when the EV trading post shut down. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I am being persecuted You are being attacked He is getting his just desserts -- Found on the net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Tesla fast charging converters
On 7 Nov 2021 at 19:12, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > No images pass through the list. Please post your photos in a PUBLIC, OPEN place (no signup or login required, please, even if it's free). That means ABSOLUTELY NOT EVER on Fakebook or Tweezer. Not even on an allegedly public page. Sorry, I'm weird about this. Then post a link to the list. I use Postimage https://postimages.org/ It works great. For those who wonder why the list filters out pictures: When the list was young, a lot of subscribers were on slow and/or pay by the KB or MB connections. Now hardly anyone is. However, the default size of digital photos has gone completely insane, 10-16mp, with file sizes in the 3-20mb range. And a large number of users *cannot* be convinced to resize them before posting. Therefore the "no photo attachments" policy remains for now. You're welcome to try to convince me to change it. And get off my lawn. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = When we look at Auschwitz we see the end of the process. The Holocaust did not start with gas chambers. The hatred gradually developed from words, stereotypes and prejudice, through legal exclusion, dehumanisation and escalating violence. -- The Auschwitz Museum = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] looking for 40kw battery leaf
On 4 Nov 2021 at 11:52, David Nelson via EV wrote: > I don't know where to source a 40kWh (note it is not kw, but kWh, > kilowatt-hour) battery for a Leaf Yup. KW measures the battery's ability to deliver power, not its energy storage capacity. But who knows? Maybe some Leaf owners really DO want 40kW batteries. After accounting for efficiency, a 40kW battery would give a Leaf roughly the power of a 1961 VW Beetle, in a car that weighs over twice as much - and doesn't have a 4-speed transmission for torque multiplication. Thirty or 40 years ago, 40kW was a typical small-car conversion - 96 volts with a 400 amp controller. A 2500lb car with a forklift motor bolted to the stock 4- or 5-speed transmission could usually manage a top speed of around 65mph, if you were prepared to give it the better part of a minute and didn't have too much of a headwind. In a 3400lb car with a single-gear transaxle, things might be a bit more dicey. But maybe the OP is up to the challenge. :-) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't know. -- Mark Twain = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Recycled battery materials perform as well as or even better than virgin materials
On 2 Nov 2021 at 14:21, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > But it's good to see that it's possible to extract metals and reuse > them, unlike compared to the plastics recycling debacle. Here in the US, our problem is that we've let successful recycling be defined as profitable recycling. In some EU nations, governments require plastic recycling, period. It costs more than using new plastic? OK, we'll subsidize the cost, because recycling is an essential public good. Most of these places are also phasing in regulations to limit plastic use. THAT is the real key to controlling plastic waste. What comes first in reduce-reuse-recycle? For batteries: Longer cycle life and higher specific energy => reduce Transfer partly spent EV batteries to stationary energy storage => reuse Recover materials for new batteries => recycle > That implies 10% waste plus all the waste created from the > extraction process. On a large scale that would be a huge amount of, > probably, very toxic waste. This is where it gets sticky. Trading one environmental disaster-in-the- making for another might meet legal requirements and generate some good greenwashing PR, but it isn't really progress. We have to avoid repeating the mistakes we've made with lead batteries. It's true that most of the materials in them are recycled, and that's good, but too much of the processing is done in third-world nations with limited and/or unenforced regulation. We have a chance to do it right this time. Instead of letting the battery manufacturers ship scrap batteries thousands of miles (using heavy oil fueled high-pollution container ships) to get cheaper labor and limited regulation, we need some laws with teeth: 1. The process itself has to be as safe as possible. 2. It has to be carried out under strong environmental regulations in nations that actually enforce those regulations. 3. It should be done close to where the batteries and materials are used. While this process can for sure relieve the pressure on raw materials supply - and we absolutely need that for the kind of EV goals that several EU countries are setting - IMO governments will have to step in early to make sure that the net environmental effect ends up being positive. Otherwise the battery manufacturers and materials suppliers will - as always - do what's cheapest, not what's cleanest. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If you don't get this joke, ask a nerdy friend. If you don't have any nerdy friends, try a bakery. You can usually find them buying pies on the 14th of March. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.
On 24 Oct 2021 at 20:23, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > Were you making a joke, or did you not know that California passed such a law > 7 years ago? "Landlords are required to allow tenants to install EV charging stations" is a good thing, but it isn't the same as "requiring owners of apartments of more than, say, 4 units, to provide L2 or better EV charging points." I'm a property owner. Not that it's likely around here, but if one of my tenants said that he had an EV and wanted an EVSE for charging it, I'd pay for the installation with the understanding that the EVSE stayed with the unit when the tenant moved. I'm pretty sure that I could take depreciation deductions for it on my income tax. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Talking about the contents of this poster is illegal. It is important that you share this information with colleagues and neighbors, and discuss it with your family. Failure to do so may lead to prosecution. For more information please reread. -- Scarfolk Council poster = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Study compares electric vehicle charge costs vs. gas — and results were misleading Yahoo
On 24 Oct 2021 at 22:27, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > Mr. Anderson and his company have 20 years-experience of consulting > with the auto industry and have been providing accurate data over that > time to many publications. With very few exceptions, success as a consultant hinges on determining what answer your client wants to hear, and delivering that answer. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The business model of the internet is surveillance. -- Bruce Schneier = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.
On 24 Oct 2021 at 13:35, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > I'd say there's no way Tesla is going to "open up" the supercharging > network in the US, even in the next 2 years, let alone the end of this > year. It's quite likely that you know more about this than I do, but I don't think that Elon Musk is going to stop clawing in every cent for miles around until he's comfortably and irreversibly in first place as richest person on Earth. If he thinks that he can make more money charging non-Tesla EVs, I assure you that it will happen. Personally, though, I don't think that's the case yet, and may never be. US EV sales other than Tesla are still less than spectacular, so it's hard to see Tesla spending the bucks retrofitting their charging points to support them. > They can (and are being legally required to) in Europe, where they have > already switched most of their network Perhaps not coincidentally, EV sales are rising much more quickly in Europe than they are in the US. And although the Tesla 3 is selling well there since they've finally reduced their EU prices to a more competitive level, Tesla is a relative latecomer (about 8-9 years late), and they don't represent the percentage of registered EVs that they do in the US. Regardless of EU law, allowing all EU EVs to charge at Tesla EU charging points is smart business for Tesla. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = You pray for the hungry. Then you feed them. That's how prayer works. -- Pope Francis = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.
On 24 Oct 2021 at 18:53, Matthew Pitts via EV wrote: > Why wouldn't folks make use of the time needed to charge their car by > doing so at a charger at their favorite store? They'll have to be > inside it for a certain period of time anyway. Exactly. That's the current situation in rural France. Public charging is essential because many people live as Cor describes, in what we'd call townhouses or rowhouses. Some houses have garages, but many don't. Supermarkets and Target-style places often provide free charging. So do municipal buildings. If you're mostly driving locally, that's all you really need. Free is good, but I really long for the day when charging an EV will be just like fueling an ICEV - drive down the main drag comparing the price slates in front of the charging stations, pull into the one with known-clean restrooms and good coffee, pop your credit card into the scanner, and charge up. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. -- Mark Twain = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.
On 24 Oct 2021 at 13:09, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > The national average is 67% of people live in single family detached homes. > But after using that figure for a few years awoke to the fact that in the > mid-atlantic population (Maryland) the ratio is 50% The problem is, that's not the statistic we need. We need to know how many people don't have garages or adjacent dedicated parking. I think that California should pass a law requiring owners of apartments of more than, say, 4 units, to provide L2 or better EV charging points equal to some percentage of their complex's units. Other states should too, but CA is one of the few that actually might do it. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = How many spells could a spell Czech check, if a spell Czech could spell cheque? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] (no subject)
On 24 Oct 2021 at 7:15, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > I was out when she said $600 for level 1. That is absurd. It's not absurd if the article's writer is trying to inflate the cost of owning an EV, while minimizing the cost of owning an ICEV. Most writers with a goal of slamming EVs do this by using worst-case numbers for EVs against best-case numbers for ICEVs. This one apparently couldn't get the results her boss wanted even using that method, so she had to use wrong figures instead. I'm sure it was just an innocent accident, though. :-\ David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Permission is hereby granted to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated materials to make use of the software and associated materials according to the terms of the MIT License (see included file `LICENSE_MIT`) IF AND ONLY IF they have not read any portion of this file. Any person who has read any portion of this file may not make any use of the software and associated materials for any purpose whatsoever. Any permissions previously granted to any person to use this software and associated materials terminate and are revoked with immediate effect upon their reading of any portion of this file. -- Voynix software license = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.
On 23 Oct 2021 at 16:27, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > EVs are charged while parked (usually at home or at work), not at > public chargers. I don't know that I'd say anything quite as final as "not at public chargers," but for sure there's much more home charging than public charging. There are certainly people who live in apartments and townhouses in big US cities and have to park on the street. This is also somewhat true in Europe, but some lucky few there have alleyways behind their houses where they can park and charge from a weatherproof EVSE on the outside wall of the house. For those who need it, public charging websites and apps help find the most affordable (even free) public charging. As charging options grow, competition is apt to drive down the overall cost. Meanwhile, I think that the gasoline prices in that article are a bit out of date. It's also not calculating the higher maintenance and repair costs for an ICEV, nor is it allowing for the differing externalized public costs. But that's what these articles do. They choose their data so as to arrive at the desired or required conclusion. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = We don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. -- Bill Watterson, "Calvin and Hobbes" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.
Ho hum - another day, another thumb-on-the-scale anti-EV article. The author is correct about finding public charging here in the Midwest - it's still a problem. Also true: public charging costs vary more than gasoline and Diesel costs do. In part those facts are related. Increasing competition among public charging providers will eventually lead to a situation more like that of filling stations, for better and/or worse. Also true: EVs currently cost more than the ICEV equivalent. Here in the US, this may or may not change in the future, depending on how successful articles like this are at depressing demand for EVs. In the EU, it's already changing, and governments that actually WANT to cut CO2 and promote renewables provide serious EV subsidies. It also doesn't hurt that the EU has a rapidly growing stable of small, cheap, limited range city EVs that you'll never see here in the US. However, the article's "fueling" cost analysis is WAY off, most decidedly NOT "apples to apples." Most people who own EVs don't use expensive paid public charging exclusively - or even much. It's up to you, but I wouldn't waste my time responding to this hit piece. Especially with today's tribal-cult attitudes, you won't budge the convicted grease-heads, and those in the EV choir don't need to be preached to. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with every Microsoft product. -- Ferenc Mantfeld = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] What Tesla’s bet on iron-based batteries means for manufacturers | TechCrunch
On 22 Oct 2021 at 11:48, Verne Pavreal via EV wrote: > Is the article behind a pay wall my iPhone Safari browser just complains a > problem has occurred cheers heretrythislinkinstead https://v.gd/Vp0b5X David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Most people here [in the US] don't want an abrupt reshuffling of everything. That's why we've had only one revolution. It's why we've fought off the metric system all these years, and thank heaven we have. -- Fox anchor Tucker Carlson = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] HV DC input -to- 120VDC output inverter???
On 17 Oct 2021 at 12:20, John Lussmyer via EV wrote: > it appears that battery input needs at least 400V. Well, that's a disappointment. For a minute there I thought that it might be a way to derive lots of kW worth of 120v at 60Hz from 230-240v at 50Hz, just by adding a big bridge rectifier and some high voltage electrolytics. I guess it's back to plan A, a 48v 1100 watt Exeltech inverter fed from a big 240v-in 52v-out surplus computer power supply. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = There is a war between the rich and poor, A war between the man and the woman. There is a war between the left and right, A war between the black and white, A war between the odd and the even. There is a war between the ones who say there is a war And the ones who say there isn't. Why don't you come on back to the war, pick up your tiny burden. Why don't you come on back to the war, let's all get even. -- Leonard Cohen = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] HV DC input -to- 120VDC output inverter???
On 16 Oct 2021 at 12:07, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > Which is why the HV input product is needed. A 1500W inverter from wal > mart is only $100 (one tenth as much) and the only difference is the > input circuitry and winding on the HV transformer. Maybe someday. Keep in mind that those $100 12 and 24 volt truck stop inverters are something of a special case. They're disposable commodity items probably made in the hundreds of thousands in Chinese sweatshops, with components produced in the millions in other Chinese sweatshops, using reference designs funded years ago by the Chinese government. The cost to set up manufacturing of these is low, and the competition among manufacturers has to be cutthroat. As soon as a manufacturer deviates from the reference design, they have additional costs for design, testing, and certification (if they don't counterfeit the regulatory marks). Component quantities go down, so component cost goes up. Production is lower. Competition is less. So the retail price goes up. It's a fairly safe bet that some Chinese entrepreneur is out there keeping an eye on the potential market for a 200+ volt input inverter. When he sees a decent profit in one, it will get introduced. If it sells well, others will hop on the bandwagon. Then component costs will fall as production scales up, and competition will most likely drive the finished inverter price down into the few-hundred range. Of course all this assumes that 5 years from now the US and China aren't lobbing nuclear missiles at each other, and/or sabotaging each others' internet. If that happens, you can forget the $100 truck stop inverters, too. And that will be the least of your worries. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat. -- Albert Einstein = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] HV DC input -to- 120VDC output inverter???
On 15 Oct 2021 at 16:57, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > Have you considered filling the strong market need for a 200-500 VDC input to > 120 VAC output 2 kW inverter that can be used on Solar systems to charge any > EV (via its own EVSE) independent of the grid. There is a CRYING need for > this high-demand inverter. That's a good idea. But I don't know why you'd want it to be 120v. Maybe you can explain that. Why wouldn't you want it to produce 240v? Then you could make it even more universally applicable worldwide by adding a selection for 50 or 60 Hz. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I learned "sesquipedalian" from Mark Twain, who used it as an adjective to describe a long word. Sesquipedalian is a sesqui- pedalian word. In a world where phonetically is not spelled the way it sounds, and Gary Oldman was a young man when Henny Youngman was an old man, it was nice to have a word that actually described itself. -- found on the internet = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Radio Noise Issue
Could you power the radio from its own battery? Charge it separately with
its own charger.
David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
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("head" or "face," as in "tete-a-tete": head to head or face to
face). Hence "polytetien," a person of two or more faces.
-- Martin Pitt
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Re: [EVDL] leaf battery for replacement
On 9 Oct 2021 at 10:54, redscooter via EV wrote: > I want to get a 30kw or 40kw [battery] You must mean 30kWh or 40kWh (kilowatt hours). Hardly anyone these days would buy a 3400lb car that only produced 40-55 horsepower (30-40kW). Saying "my EV gets 4 miles per kilowatt" is like saying "My ICEV gets 36 miles per horsepower." It's meaningless. IMO, this kW vs kWh confusion wouldn't be a problem if, 20 or 30 years ago, all of us in the EV world had gotten into the habit of stating EV battery capacity in megajoules. (1 kWh == 3.6 MJ) So it goes. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = There'll be one corporation, selling one little box. It'll do what you want, and tell you what you want, And cost whatever you've got. -- Greg Brown, "Where is Maria," 1996 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] "EV to ... home" ==> 2nd EV for 100% solar charging
On 5 Oct 2021 at 18:41, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > Going off-grid: > > Buy a used Leaf as a second EV. Charge each one on > alternating days. Good idea! The main impediment I can see would be the cost of licensing and insuring the second car. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Just How Bad is Your Job, #13: Philosophy of Life. Two statements follow. Check the one that most closely describes your current outlook. ( ) Misery loves company. ( ) The company loves misery. -- Matt Groening, "Work is Hell" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Re: V2H
On 5 Oct 2021 at 13:23, Matthew Pitts via EV wrote: > V2B is vehicle to building and V2x just is used for a generic reference > for all of them. Thanks, Matthew! David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Think about how stupid the average person is. Then realize that half of them are even stupider than that. -- George Carlin = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Re: V2H
On 5 Oct 2021 at 13:19, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > most of this thread has been discussing V2H, V2B and/or V2X rather > than V2G I know that V2G is vehicle to grid. V2H must be vehicle to house, yes? Maybe V2B is vehicle to business (wild guess). But what is V2X? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. -- Carl Sagan, "Pale Blue Dot" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] V2H
On 4 Oct 2021 at 10:19, Tim Economu via EV wrote: > Paul, a house backup system can in fact be purchased for much less than > $78,000. Mine was about $8k. The point is that if it already included in the > large battery EV you just bought, then it's effectively free. Your EV already has a big battery (well most these days do), and a high power inverter. It shouldn't take much extra hardware to make that system able to squirt its battery energy out to a changeover panel in your garage or cellar. That HAS to be cheaper and more convenient than buying yet another battery and inverter for your house. It's hard to imagine it costing even close to $8k. It might add (guessing here) 5-10% to the cost of the EV. That should make home backup power readily available to many homeowners who otherwise might think it wasn't worth the investment for the few times they'd need it. Add a couple of NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 receptacles to the EV, and apartment dwellers might be able to join in the fun too. Also, what a great way to power a robust 120v circular saw or drill away from home. (Yeah, I know that cordless power tools exist.) For example, you could buy a sheet of plywood at the lumberyard and cut it into the pieces you need right there in the parking lot, so that it fits neatly into your car. Not that I've ever done anything like that in a Home Depot parking lot, of course. :-) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. -- Abraham Lincoln = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Include in events: "EV to power your home"
On 30 Sep 2021 at 19:13, paul dove via EV wrote: > Yes I am because that's the logical conclusion based on life experience. Good grief. That's YOUR "life experience," not anyone else's. For *YOU*, an EV that can provide backup power may not be a good investment. Fair enough. That much is fine. But then you said, "I doubt very seriously if that´s a significant selling point." If you have market research data that shows that, let's see it. Otherwise you're just spitballing. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted, but to weigh and consider. -- Francis Bacon = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Include in events: "EV to power your home"
On 30 Sep 2021 at 12:03, paul dove via EV wrote: > I doubt very seriously if thatTMs a significant selling point. My power went > out maybe 5 times in 40 years. Don't assume that your experience is the same as everyone else's. That careless error has tripped up no small number of business owners and managers. :-\ There are plenty of rural areas in the US - and elsewhere - where power cuts aren't rare events at all. That in fact was the case for the area where I live, up until a few years ago. It worthwhile to add a changeover panel and inverter for backup power to some circuits. If an EV buyer lived in such an area, and (for example) had a freezer full of expensive food, he might very well choose an EV with backup power capability over a similarly priced one that didn't have it. IMO, we should welcome that kind of competition in the EV business. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = It is well known (Potts, 2014; Catcher, 2014) that the internet is made of cats. The net is a series of tubes (Stevens, 2006) through which cats carry information in packets (Butterworth, 2011). The failure modes have been less well studied. Several exist, but to date the most researched are fracture, disjunc- tion, and joule-based disruption. FRACTURE causes complete regional internet failure. It occurs when construction or other human activity severs or collapses an underground tunnel through which the cats travel. The symptom of DISJUNCTION is high lat- ency; the usual cause is hooligans placing containers of tuna or cream at tunnel junctions. Data corruption results from JOULE- BASED DISRUPTION, caused by the static charge that accumulates as long-haired cats speed through the tunnels. This shocks the cats, who drop their packets. -- Lolapin (2020) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] EVLN: Do EVs really need deep-sea mining?
EXCERPTS: More than 90% of the estimated 2.2 million species in the ocean remain undescribed. And the two-year countdown to deep-sea mining has prompted warnings from scientists that we have not sufficiently understood its potential impact on biodiversity and ecosystems. Douglas McCauley, a professor at the University of California, Santa Barbara and director of the Benioff Ocean Initiative, says the potential impact of deep-sea mining keeps him up at night. Electrification of vehicle fleets is a "positive pathway" to reduce carbon emissions, says McCauley. But he accuses deep-sea mining companies of a "false narrative" that we must mine the ocean to meet renewable energy´s demand for metals. * Increasingly, car companies are joining in the revolt. In March, BMW and Volvo, with Google and Samsung, became the first global companies to sign up to the World Wildlife Fund´s (WWF) call for a moratorium on deep-sea mining. In backing the call, WWF says, the companies committed to not sourcing any metals from the seabed, to exclude them from their supply chains and not to finance deep-sea mining, until the risks are better understood and the alternatives exhausted. FULL STORY: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/28/false-choice-is-deep-sea- mining-required-for-an-electric-vehicle-revolution or https://v.gd/lPrxmk David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. -- Alan Kay = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] J.B. Straubel in the news - Move making cathodes from Asia to the USA
On 15 Sep 2021 at 4:40, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > How does that work ? Do they pump the water through some > sort of catalyst that can extract lithium ? If I understand correctly, it's David Snydacker's "direct lithium extraction" process (Lilac). It uses ion exchange, fundamentally the same process used in water softeners for decades. The big deal about siting it at the Salton Sea is that there they can use geothermal energy for the process. My main concern would be the handling and disposal of the chemicals that the process requires, but I'm far from an expert on these matters. finfeed.com/features/explainer-overview-direct-lithium-extraction-dle- geothermal-brines/ or v.gd/SlJrjF Excerpt: Both heat and electricity are used in lithium extraction and refining. The lithium chemical production process begins with contacting the geothermal brine with a selective medium which adsorbs lithium chloride (LiCl) from the brine and leaves all the other salts in solution. The lithium chloride is then eluted into pure water or acid at a higher concentration compared to the geothermal brine and with very low quantities of impurities. There are a number of technology companies which market the ability to perform DLE with high lithium recovery including Lilac Solutions, Tenova Advanced Technologies, Adionics, EnergySource Minerals, and others, some of which will work well for geothermal-lithium projects. The pure lithium chloride stream produced by the DLE process needs to be purified and concentrated to produce lithium chemical products like lithium hydroxide. For the purification process, a number of inputs are needed including chemical reagents like soda ash (Na2CO3), caustic soda (NaOH), and sulfuric acid (H2SO4). Electricity is also required to run pumps and filtration systems. For the concentration process, a significant quantity of electricity and heat is required to remove water from the lithium chloride stream for recycling and to crystallise battery quality lithium hydroxide. The geothermal plant can handily produce all of the power required, and heat is harnessed from the geothermal brine to drive the process. All the electricity and heat used in the process is produced on site and has no carbon footprint. No natural gas pipeline is needed, and no diesel or coal needs to be burned to run the process, giving geothermal-lithium projects a low carbon and potentially a cost advantage over both salar-type brine and hard rock resources which require burning of fossil fuels in lithium chemical production. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = War will never cease until babies begin to come into the world with larger cerebrums and smaller adrenal glands. -- H L Mencken = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Charging a BOLT from 120v
On 13 Sep 2021 at 9:30, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > My son's workplace in Alaska says he cannot plugin his Bolt EV to the > dedicated 120v oiutlets provided in every parking spot because EV > charging is not authorized. Charging usually does take more current than a block heater does. However, that restriction sounds more like a political move on the employer's part. Conversions have used waterbed heaters and plant soil heaters to keep their lead batteries warm. Could he fix something like that to the underside of the battery tray? Fair's fair; if the other employees can keep their engines warm, he ought to be able to keep his battery warm. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular. -- Adlai Stevenson = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
On 10 Sep 2021 at 13:28, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > This replacement cost is another "nail in the coffin" of H2 fuel cell > vehicles. The cost of a battery replacement is less than the cost of > _mandatory_ H2 cylinder replacement. Is it mandatory, though? It seems to be nothing more than a label inside the fuel filler door with a date and a finger-wagging advisory, "Vehicles with expired hydrogen tanks must not be driven or refueled until the hydrogen tanks are replaced." It seems as if everything is chipped and networked in cars these days. You'd think that Toyota could have the body computer query the tanks, "Hey, you guys expired yet?" before starting up, and refuse to go if they're past their use-by dates. At least it could flip on a yellow warning light or "service hydrogen tanks soon" message on the cabin display. If the manual mentions that as a possible situation, I missed it. Do FCVs require smog inspection? Would expired H2 tanks keep them from being certified? I don't have a clue. Without any consequences, the owner could just ignore the warning label, and carry on with filling and driving the car. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I found one day in school a boy of medium size ill-treating a smaller boy. I expostulated, but he replied: "The bigs hit me, so I hit the babies; that's fair." In these words he epitomized the history of the human race. -- Bertrand Russell, "Education and the Social Order" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
On 10 Sep 2021 at 5:04, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > Maybe the Mirai tank system is really tight. Otherwise, I'm really > curious: why haven't there been any reported H2 explosions ? Could it be partly because they've sold only about 8,500 of them since 2015? Low sales volume means fewer opportunities for faults to develop. It would also be interesting to know how many of those sales were to fleets where the vehicles tend to be parked outside in open lots, and not in residential garages. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] OT: fuel cell mining truck
On 9 Sep 2021 at 14:52, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > I suspect, the hydrogen storage wont get any smaller whereas we can > realistically expect the energy density - both by weight and volume - > to continue to increase for batteries. I think that you're right. Ten years ago, even 5, FCVs had advantages over BEVs in range and fueling speed. But they've improved only slightly while battery energy density has surged. For example, the 2012 Renault Zoe had a 22 kWh battery and the 2020/21 has a 52 kWh battery. Same size battery, 136% more capacity. And the car's curb weight only increased 5%. IIRC Toyota has made their FC slightly more efficient, but most of the Mirai's modest range gains came from larger tanks. How much larger can they get? Those tanks are an awkward shape. Toyota has smart engineers but I'm skeptical that they'll fit in much more H2 unless they can find a way to shape the tanks more like a gas tank, or even a lithium ion battery. So I can see the rest of the FCV range advantage evaporating in a couple of years. With fast charging already touching 300 kW I don't think we're far away from a collapse of the FCV fueling speed advantage too. What else do FCVs have going for them? It's sure not easy fueling! You can't find an H2 station in most of the country, and you can't fill up an FCV in your garage. And don't get me started on the difference in complexity. But Toyota is stubborn, and they seem determined to smear as much lipstick as possible on this pig they're riding. So who knows? Maybe FCVs will turn out like minidisks were 15-20 years ago, fairly big in Japan and mostly a non-event elsewhere. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. -- William G. McAdoo = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] OT: fuel cell mining truck
Thanks Bill. That's the information I was looking for. I was curious about whether this was mentioned in the owner manuals of FCVs. so out of curiosity I downloaded the Mirai manual from the web https://www.startmycar.com/toyota/mirai/info/manuals/2021 It's 560 pages! I thought at first that it must be multi-lingual, but nope, that's all English text. I confess, I didn't read it all, just skimmed interesting topics. First of all, I was specifically looking for information or advice about ventilating the garage where the owner is going to park the Mirai. I didn't find any. The only mention of "vent" in the index refers to the seat ventilators. "Garage" is about Homelink programming. "Parking" guides us to parking assist, parking brake, parking lights, and "parking support brake," which is a low speed collision avoidance system. The manual has some information about the car's safety systems. Apparently it has a hydrogen leakage detector that posts a warning on the info screen. The car has 3 bulky cylindrical H2 tanks. The vehicle schematic diagram showing them made me think of EV conversion, when you have to figure out where to fit in a dozen or two lead batteries, with little choice about their shape. One H2 tank is in the center between the seats, where a driveshaft would be in an FE/RD car. (I thought we were done with that waste of interior space.) One appears to be transversely mounted under the seats, and the third behind the rear axle (shades of the Pinto's gas tank). They're all claimed to be physically outside the passenger cabin, so presumably they're hung underneath. I don't see dimensions, but they look like they might indeed cover less total square area than a typical EV battery. However, they may be taller than some/most EV lithium batteries. There's a traction battery, too. It's smaller than a typical EVs but appears to be mounted over the rear axle, behind the rear seat. Depending on its mass relative to the H2 tanks, that might raise questions about the car's center of gravity. In a collision the hydrogen tank valves supposedly shut off. Given the location of the transverse tanks, though, I have to wonder how well they'd hold together in a high speed side T-bone by a 3-ton jacked-up pickup. The hydrogn tanks have an EXPIRATION DATE! It's posted on the inside of the fuel door, and "Vehicles with expired hydrogen tanks must not be driven or refueled until the hydrogen tanks are replaced." I wonder what that costs. The manual has 113 pages about using the "driving support system," but only 2-1/2 pages of fuel cell and hydrogen warnings. In that section we find such gems as: "If you notice gas leaking or any other malfunction, immediately stop the vehicle in a safe and well-ventilated place, exit the vehicle, and stay far away from it." (Interesting that that use of the word "ventilated" wasn't in the index.) "In case of a vehicle fire, the hydrogen gas in the tanks is released angled downward on the right side and rear of the vehicle, in order to reduce damage to the hydrogen tanks. Stay away from the vehicle and do not stand on either the right side or the rear of the vehicle." (Maybe it's just my ignorance, but that doesn't sound good at all.) "If your vehicle needs to be towed, do so with the rear wheels lifted. If the wheels are touching the ground, the motor may continue to generate electricity. This may cause a fire." "If the traction battery is not properly collected [by a dealer], the following may occur, resulting in death or serious injury: The traction battery may be illegally disposed [of] or dumped, and it is hazardous to the environment." "Do not carry large amounts of water such as water cooler bottles in the vehicle. If water spills onto the traction battery, the battery may be damaged." Also, "Never drink the water coming out of the tailpipe." :-) Elsewhere in the manual: "When starting the fuel cell system during cold weather, 'FCV System Due to Freezing Stop in a Safe Place See Owner Manual' may be displayed in the multifunction display. The fuel cell system is frozen and cannot be started. See your Toyota dealer." All quite interesting. But, again, not a word about ventilating your garage when you park a Mirai there. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has. --William Burroughs = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to
Re: [EVDL] OT: fuel cell mining truck
On 7 Sep 2021 at 2:56, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > Since you are not allowed to park a fuel cell car indoors why on earth > would you use one in a mine Can you please provide a reference for this? I'm no FCV fan nor am I an H2 evangelist, but I haven't been able to find any documentation for such a law anywhere on the web. I can't even find a reference to ventilation requirements, although that would certainly make sense. Most of what I find that discusses hydrogen vehicle safety matters is fairly old - twelve years ago and earlier - and seems somewhat speculative. On 8 Sep 2021 at 10:21, paul dove via EV wrote: > Why? If you design it to run for 8 hours then at the end of the work > day charge overnight. I know nothing about mines, but what if the mine runs 24 hours a day? I have a vague recollection of reading years ago that there exist(ed?) cable powered electric mining trucks. I might be remembering wrong. Regrettably the web seems to be so saturated with discussion of this one that I haven't been able to find a reference to much else. Maybe someone else can. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I LIKE paying taxes. With them, I buy civilization. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Will this gizmo let my EV conversion talk to a J-1772
The interesting thing about a GFI is that it doesn't actually need a ground to do its thing. It senses an imbalance in current between hot and neutral, or for a 240v GFI, between the hot legs and/or neutral. If any portion of the current drawn from a hot leg isn't balanced by a return via the other hot or neutral, it assumes that the errant current is going to ground. Since this could be happening via a person, with the possibility of shock or electrocution, it trips. Apart from tripping a GFI, the hazard in using equipment ground for a neutral is that if the equipment ground bonding at the main panel should be loose or damaged, the entire building's equipment ground wiring is energized - and so is the frame of any appliance connected to that ground. That's not good. So don't use ground as a neutral substitute, even without a GFI present. Couldn't you solve your RV problem with an isolation transformer? You could also potentially use the same transformer to derive 120v for conversion EV charging. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If you made a column of things you're pretty sure you know, and then made another column of how you know those things, most of that column is like: "Some guy told me." It's just clickbait and hearsay. Goes into the head, locks onto a feeling, you're like: "That sounds good. I'm gonna tell other people that." And that's how brand marketing works, and also fascism, we're finding. -- Marc Maron = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Will this gizmo let my EV conversion talk to a J-1772
On 4 Sep 2021 at 20:55, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > I thought you could mix ground with neutral? Ground and neutral are bonded together at only one point in your house. Usually that's at the main panel or main disconnect. From that point on, ground and neutral are kept totally separate. You can't use the equipment ground as a substitute for neutral. It creates a potentially hazardous situation and will trip a GFI, including the one in an EVSE. To charge at 120v, you'll need an appropriately sized transformer. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = People don't sleep enough, and they all seem to be hunting something that can't be caught. You think you're the dominant species just because you go to the bathroom in a bowl instead of a box. But who's cleaning up after whom? -- Souseme, "Felines of New York" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Will this gizmo let my EV conversion talk to a J-1772
On 4 Sep 2021 at 1:18, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > RV's need neutral, so you'd need a transformer if you want to run any 120v > items. Wait, I must have missed something here. Now RV owners want to crib power from EVSEs? It's not enough that greasy jerks with their stepladder pickups ICE them? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I believe I have created one of the smallest working miniature trebuchets I have ever seen. -- Alex Presle= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Will this gizmo let my EV conversion talk to a J-1772
On 2 Sep 2021 at 15:17, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... Here's the message: This is a controller for in vehicle, so the complement to the EVSE (charging station). NOTE that it does not protect your battery, there is no BMS connection. It also does not tell you how much current you are allowed to draw, so you can overload the EVSE with your in vehicle charger. All it does is "turn the charging station on to deliver power to your EV" And it apparently gives you a signal (relay contact) telling you that the power is on, so you can start/stop the charger on your car, this avoids you running your aux battery down when the EVSE is indicating zero (no charging allowed at this moment, can be due to load sharing) which means no power, so your EV should not stay awake and run the aux battery down waiting Cor. = Sorry for the inconvenience. The list blocks html in mail to protect your privacy and system security. The above problem arises when html-only email is sent to the list. Please configure your email system to send mail that is either plain text or multipart-alternative with a plain text component. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas. -- John Ciardi = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the
On 31 Aug 2021 at 21:55, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > My first guess is CA has distorted the market with subsidies, etc. It is > likely a pendulum swing, the asking price will have to come down. Supply > greater than demand. Some one is going to get some electrons below cost. Again I'm speaking out of relative ignorance, not having exhaustively researched the California energy situation. However one would think that the utilities aren't apt to buy more RE than they're required to, especially if it costs more than brown energy. So one solution to RE oversupply would be for the California legislature to generate demand by raising the required percentage of RE in the grid, no? And, again, using that excess RE to charge EVs should be a winner all round. However, I'm throwing darts in the dark here, so it'd be great to hear from someone more familiar with the situation. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = What has allowed so many psychopathic personalities to rise so high in corporations, and now in government, is that they are so decisive. Unlike normal people, they are never filled with doubts, for the simple reason that they cannot care what happens next. -- Kurt Vonnegut = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the
>From what I've read, California now has so many PV installations that they're actually deliberately cutting output - there's more supply than demand. Springtime is a particular problem because there's ample sunshine, but the weather is mild, so there's little need for heating or aircon. Long-term storage would seem to be the real answer, I guess (I"m not an expert), and maybe the legislature needs to revisit their RE goals. But for the immediate situation, more EVs => more demand => more efficient use of installed PV, no? Since charging tends to be at night, short-term storage would be a factor, I suppose. Seems easier to implement than long-term storage, but again, what do I know? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If at first you don't succeed, skydiving probably isn't for you. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] j1772 cable
On 29 Aug 2021 at 14:43, nathan christiansn via EV wrote: > The photo was deleted from your post - would you mind sending it again? > > Nathan Sending it again will produce the same results. The image wasn't deleted. Like all binary attachments (successfully) sent to the list, it was moved to the list's secure storage: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev- evdl.org/attachments/20210829/9750681c/attachment.jpg or https://v.gd/9CGsKM You may need your list password to view the file. If you didn't save your password when you signed up (likely), you can get it via your personal list configuration page: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org Just click the Password Reminder button and it will be emailed to you. Check your spam folder if if doesn't arrive within a couple of minutes. = SENDERS: Prevent this hassle by posting your photos on a PUBLIC, OPEN file sharing service, and then including a link in your post. Please don't use sharing services that require the viewer to sign up or log in. Wikipedia suggestions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photo_sharing_websites The one I use: https://postimages.org/ Thanks, Your friendly neighborhood EV list chief cook & bottle recycler David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Some people ask, "Why?" Others ask, "Why not?" Then later they say, "Oh." -- Found on the Net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] EVLN: Electric Eel - partway there
"Electric EEL is an adapted six-seat Cessna. There is a conventional combustion engine in the back of the plane that drives the rear propeller. "... [a] compartment under the cabin holds six batteries - originally built for motorcycles - that power the front propeller. "The replacement of one conventional engine with the batteries makes the plane lighter - hence the steeper climb - but also, the makers argue, quieter, cheaper, greener." Full story: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/24/decarbonising-aviation- the-electric-eel-could-be-the-future-of-flying or https://v.gd/6GqNDa David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Listen to the mustn'ts, child; listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me: Anything can happen, child. Anything can be. -- Shel Silverstein = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 25 Aug 2021 at 6:54, jim--- via EV wrote: > within a mile or two of my house there are at least a half dozen > publicly available charging stations. That's what's great about EVs. Almost every commercial building has enough electrical capacity to install at least a level 2 (~10kW) charging point. The cost is about $6,000 per point. No need to buy and bury tanks, just trench for the power cable. No EVSE? It's slow, but you can charge anywhere you can find a receptacle (with permission). That's just about everywhere. Hydrogen willl NEVER be cheap to install or that readily available - nor will gasoline or Diesel fuel, for that matter. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 24 Aug 2021 at 16:05, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > Why is it then that while there have been over a million BEVs > sold, there have been less than 7,000 FCEVs sold? It's certainly a fraction of BEV sales, but it's not that low. The following is the best data I can find without an exhaustive search, but it's incomplete: Toyota Mirai: US 6,648, CA 118, EU 614 I also saw ~8,400 somewhere, and Toyota claims "about 10,000" total for US, Japan, and EU. Hyuundai Nexo: US 483, EU 500 I couldn't find #s for the earlier Tucson, but see below. Honda FCX (Mk I, 2002-2015): US 81, EU ? Honda FCX Clarity (all leases, 2016-2021): US about 13,000 (my approximation), EU ? Hyundai said they sold 3,843 FCEVs through 2019. Presumably that includes sales of the previous model, a production conversion of the Tucson SUV. >From the above I get a very rough approximation for FCEV sales of at least 27,000. I see no way to determine how many were sales to government agencies and other stakeholders vs sales to the general public. PS: Honda has announced that they're discontinuing the Clarity. Production ends this month. I don't know whether they have plans to replace it with another FCEV. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Never been to Cleveland when the sun was shining. Even when it shines, it looks like rain. -- Melanie Safka, "Between the Road Signs" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 23 Aug 2021 at 8:46, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: > I wouldnTMt expect that Toyota had that kind of editorial influence, nor > would exercise it if they could. They don't need to. The once-solid firewalls between the management and fiscal people and the newsrooms are crumbling even in traditional broadcast media. Those firewalls never existed in the world of online "influencers." For them, anything goes, and everything is for sale. Toyota pays. They even let the presenter drive the car. *Of course* they get top billing and good words for their policies and products. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I think [Rio de Janeiro mayor Marcelo] Crivella will be remembered as a mayor to be forgotten. -- Alvaro Costa e Silva = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
Mark, I'd still like to read YOUR responses to the questions posted here, especially to my own questions. That said, thanks for posting that video clip. I wasn't too impressed with the production itself - all those annoying jump cuts! I don't undertand why producers will put significant effort into a production, but can't be bothered to set up a second camera (old mobile phones are cheap) so they have another angle for editing without jump cuts. They don't even seem to know how to make or use simple B-roll. At least she was more prepared than the "Hey youtubers, today we're gonna look at ..." crowd who just wing it, wasting the viewers' time with semi- coherent rambling. But that's just technical griping. To get to the info, the presenter made a point that I hadn't thought much about - increasing range on an FCEV is less likely to add significant weight than it would on a BEV. She seems to think that that matters more for trucks than cars. I'd say that the opposite is true. When you consider battery weight as a percentage of a truck's payload, more might not be that big a deal. She points out that FCEVs fuel faster. She says 5 minutes for FCEVs; elsewhere I've read 8 minutes. However, as superchargers hit 300kW, the difference is narrowing. So 2 of her 5 points - refueling and other uses - may give a slight edge to FCEVs. But her 3 other points are either pretty close to a toss-up (range), or come down solidly in favor of BEVs (efficiency and infrastructure).. That's especially true of infrastructure, because H2 stations are costly to build - from what I've just read, around $2.8 million. However, adding 150kW charging to existing filling stations costs less than $150k per charging point. I was *really* irritated when she brought up that old, long-since debunked fiction, "If all our cars were EVs they'd take down the grid." "All EVs" isn't going to happen overnight, nor any time soon, and possibly never. There's plenty of time for utlities to catch up. She should know better. On the balance, I thought that on her 5 challenge points, BEVs were the clear winner - IN SPITE of "By the way, thank you to Toyota for sponsoring this entire series." David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = First Law of Bicycling: No matter which way you ride, it's uphill and against the wind. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Hydrogen Highway to nowhere!
On 20 Aug 2021 at 19:35, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: > Taking the cheaper price of $16.85/kg, $84 will take you 312 miles, for a cost > of 27 cents per mile. Sorry, I made an error in this. The cheaper price is $12.85/kg. At that price a $64 H2 fillup will go 312 miles for about 21 cents per mile. At the more expensive Long beach price of $16.63/kg the Mirai cost would be 27 cents per mile. An ICEV @ 35mpg and $4.39/gal is 12.5 cents per mile. An EV @ 300 wh/mi and 15.34 cents/kWh is 4.6 cents per mile. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Cryptocurrency: Idling your car 24 hours a day to produce worked sudokus, which you trade for heroin. Non-Fungible Token: A heroin sudoku with a picture on the back. -- Anonymous (found on the net) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Hydrogen Highway to nowhere!
On 20 Aug 2021 at 17:15, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: > How far will $15,000 in "free fuel" take the Mirai? I looked into this. According to a couple of sources, for the initial 2015 model, a full tank of H2 would take the car 312 miles. More recent Mirais have longer range, but I think (not sure) that's because they have larger tanks. I read in a 2016 review of the car that a fillup in California then cost $85. From that, I concluded that Toyota's $15k subsidy was good for about 55,000 miles. However, the Toyota freebie expires in 3 years. There are very few H2 stations outside of California - only 17 other states have them, and those states have 10 stations or fewer. I guess that people drive a lot in southern California, but in 3 years, how readily could a person living in the LA area put 55,000 miles on a car that can't leave the state? As an aside, the current Mirai costs (IIRC) around $50k list. In March Toyota was offering a $20k rebate if you financed one through Toyota Credit. I suspect that they're already losing money on the car at $50k - and then they hand you $35k in subsidies. Automakers will take a loss on a car for a while to get it established in the market, but selling an FCEV at $15k??? That kind of heavy per-unit loss seems unsustainable in the long term. > How is hydrogen priced in what unit of quantity? It's sold by the kilogram. A search says that it costs $12.85/kg in Santa Monica and $16.63/kg in Long Beach. The Mirai has a 5kg capacity. The $85 cost for a fillup that I cited above would be for the more expensive Long Beach price. Another review said that the 5kg of hydrogen in the car was worth about 165kWh of raw energy. So if the car got 312 miles from that tank, that means it's using about 530 Wh/mile. Compared to the similar size Tesla Model S at 288 Wh/mile, the Mirai is using 46% more energy. That's not what I'd call outstanding efficiency. > How far will that unit take a Mirai? If the range is 312 miles, that's about 62 miles per kg. > Is this a subsidized price? I don't know. > What is the expected price over time? I can't answer that either. But I will say that the Mirai is an expensive car to drive without the Toyota fuel subsidy. Taking the cheaper price of $16.85/kg, $84 will take you 312 miles, for a cost of 27 cents per mile. An ICEV getting 35 mpg on gasoline that costs 4.39 per gallon (average CA price recently) would cost you about 12.5 cents per mile, less than half. However, the ICEV will have other maintenance costs that the FCEV might not. An EV charged at home that uses 300 Wh/mile at the CA average of 15.34 cents per kwh would cost 4.6 cents per mile to drive, a tad more than one-sixth the per-mile cost of the FCEV. Cost of use isn't the only factor of course - but most vehicle buyers will look at that in making a decision. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I am the one with no secrets. They [the Chinese government] have secrets. It is only because they have secrets that they can imagine everyone else having them too. -- Ai Weiwei = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Hydrogen Highway to nowhere!
Not thiat it's terribly important, but I posted this same article yesterday. I didn't have to subscribe or pay to read it, maybe because I'm not in California. In any case, it's an interesting article, and it's refreshing to see a good light shone on BEVs for once. Some people dismiss "mainstream media" as biased, but while there are definitely some VERY biased media - and they tend to be unsettlingly popular - most reporters today are just plain lazy. Too many stories are essentially rewrites of previous published ones, supported by the same iffy numbers and the same quotations from the same "experts." When a reporter does get ambitious and really dig for a story, it risks being edited or rejected by a managment afraid of offending its advertisers. I thought that this was one of the better pieces I'd read, but that might be partly because I agree with it. :-) However, I wish that the reporters had elaborated on this statement: "It turned out that the hydrogen Hummer wasn´t so climate-friendly." I don't think it's just a Hummer, although they were grossly wasteful vehicles. It seems to me that hydrogen vehicles in general aren't very helpful in reducing carbon emissions as long as their fuel is made from natural gas, with or without purchased carbon credits. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Fertility is hereditary. If your parents didn't have any children, neither will you. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 19 Aug 2021 at 15:51, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote: > Do *you* see *any* advantages? I'd also like to know what prompted Mark to choose an FCEV over a BEV. I'm also curious as to whether he'd make the same choice today. BEVs have made significant advances in range and charging speed in just the last couple of years. I've read that Tesla has broken the 400 mile barrier, and that their superchargers are supposed to hit 300kW soon. I'm not a mindreader, but I suspect that Mark might feel heavily outnumbered here. Let's try to give him some space to state his reasons for his choice, in peace, without immediately jumping in to refute them. He may be the only person on this discussion list, or nearly so, to have bought an FCEV. But Toyota has sold about 8,400 Mirais since the car came out in 2015, so he's not alone. I think it's good for us to understand why an FCEV would be someone's choice, if only to consider how BEVs might counter their advantages both real and perceived, and win more buyers in the long run. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = It will always be one of the best jokes of democracy that it gives its deadly enemies the means to destroy it. -- Joseph Goebbels = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 19 Aug 2021 at 11:22, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: > ItTMs very odd that absolutely no one answered your question about > advantages. Well, as Packard used to say, "Ask the man who owns one." As far as I know, which admittedly isn't all that far, you're the only person on this list who owns an FCEV. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation. -- Gustavo Petro = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] [EVLN] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 19 Aug 2021 at 8:31, jim--- via EV wrote: > Here's a link to the article if you can read it > > https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-08-10/hydrogen-highway-or-highway- > to-nowhere The article didn't seem to be paywalled. It's quoted below for anyone having trouble. If you live in the LA area, please subscribe to the newspaper. I have to say that the piece reads like the early, highly pessimistic media pieces on EVs. However, it's hard to argue with its general thesis. I wasn't surprised at all the H2 driver complaints. Early EV adopters griped the same way about public charging problems. Some still do. It would be interesting to see how much driving on H2 would make up for the amount of fuel used and carbon released in flatbed-towing an empty, stranded FCEV to a filling station. For me the real eye-opener in this piece was that California's "green" H2 that we recently praised here on the list isn't made by electrolysis. It's made from natural gas, and the refiners are using purchased carbon credits to "greenwash" it. Is California´s `Hydrogen Highway´ a road to nowhere? [Photo omitted + caption: True Zero is opening more hydrogen stations, including this one in Orange County´s Aliso Viejo that began operating in June. (Carolyn Cole / Los Angeles Times)] By EVAN HALPER | LOS ANGELES TIMES EXCLUSIVE Photography by Carolyn Cole / Videography by Jackeline Luna Carolyn Cole Aug. 10, 2021 3 AM PT Soon after Maribel Munoz joined the trailblazing ranks of American owners of hydrogen cars - a group that exists only in California - she began to fear that the low price of the taxpayer-subsidized Toyota Mirai she purchased came with a tremendous cost. "You can´t have a job and own this car," said the 49-year-old clothing designer from Azusa. "Finding fuel for it becomes your job. It is constant anxiety. I told the guy at Toyota, `If I have a stroke, it´s on you.´" Munoz found herself stranded with an empty tank on the highway and stressed out by the repeated fuel shortages Mirai drivers call "hydropocalypses." She struggled not to scream at her phone after driving miles to stations that a hydrogen fueling app said were working just fine, only to find them out of order. These are the kind of hassles that can come with being an early adopter. But in the case of California´s "Hydrogen Highway" - a network of fueling stations then-Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger dreamed would lure masses of Americans to hydrogen vehicles - even the most climate-conscious, tech-savvy motorists are asking: What´s the point? The Hydrogen Highway was meant to stretch from coast to coast. But after 17 years, it has yet to make it past the state line. Environmentalists warn that the futuristic hydrogen fuel cell cars, marketed as producing zero emissions, leave an inexcusably heavy carbon footprint. The few automakers that have not backed away from the concept of powering a passenger car by splitting off electrons from hydrogen ions are struggling to persuade drivers that the vehicles are a reliable alternative to zero- emission battery-powered ones. And other states that typically look to California for climate-friendly transportation inspiration are taking a pass. [Photo omitted + caption: Maribel Munoz, a clothing designer from Azusa, got rid of her hydrogen-powered Toyota Mirai after finding the fuel supply system too stressful. "It is constant anxiety. I told the guy at Toyota, `If I have a stroke, it´s on you.´" (Carolyn Cole / Los Angeles Times)] "It started as kind of a bad bet by the state," said Ethan Elkind, director of the climate program at UC Berkeley´s Center for Law, Energy and the Environment. "Now it has become a legacy zombie technology." California can´t let go of Schwarzenegger´s vision. In 2004, he famously got behind the wheel of a clunky Hummer prototype that ran on hydrogen to signal that drivers can have it all: the excess and convenience of a gas guzzler, with none of the emissions. (It turned out that the hydrogen Hummer wasn´t so climate-friendly and never made it to commercial production.) State officials say the hydrogen experiment is merely experiencing the growing pains of every transportation innovation California pushed into the mainstream. The Biden administration is right there alongside California, championing lucrative subsidies and demonstration projects aimed at making hydrogen fuel an affordable and truly green alternative, one that it hopes could complement the battery-powered electric vehicle market. "Ten years ago, people would have come to me and said, `Why is California supporting battery vehicles? There is hardly any market, and they will never be competitive,´" said Patty Monahan, a member of the California Energy Commission. Of course, battery electric vehicles are all the rage now. It started as kind of a bad bet by the state. Now, it has become a legacy zombie technology. [Photo omitted +
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all - EV charging in Alaska
On 18 Aug 2021 at 3:53, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > He was down to 50 miles remaining and beginning to worry. Remember when EVs ran on a half ton of lead, and "50 miles remaining" meant you'd just finished charging? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Estimated yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion Estimated 2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion -- Harper's Index, April 2002 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] EVLN: NHTSA to investigate Tesla / Emergency Vehicle Crashes
The US government has opened a formal investigation into Tesla´s driver- assistance system known as Autopilot after a series of collisions with parked emergency vehicles. The investigation covers 765,000 vehicles, almost everything that Tesla has sold in the US since the start of the 2014 model year. Of the crashes identified by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) as part of the investigation, 17 people were injured and one was killed. NHTSA says it has identified 11 crashes since 2018 in which Teslas on Autopilot or Traffic Aware Cruise Control have hit vehicles at scenes where first responders used flashing lights, flares, an illuminated arrow board or cones warning of hazards. NHTSA says it has identified 11 crashes since 2018 in which Teslas on Autopilot or Traffic Aware Cruise Control have hit vehicles at scenes where first responders used flashing lights, flares, an illuminated arrow board or cones warning of hazards ... The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), which also has investigated some of the Tesla crashes, has recommended that NHTSA and Tesla limit Autopilot´s use to areas where it can safely operate The investigation is the latest in a series launched by NHTSA which has opened at least 30 crash investigations involving Tesla cars that it suspected were linked to Autopilot. One investigation into a 2016 crash cleared Tesla´s Autopilot of any blame ... Full story: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/16/teslas-autopilot-us- investigation-crashes-emergency-vehicles or https://v.gd/xSIqBl David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war. -- Richard Nixon, "Real Peace"(1983) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 17 Aug 2021 at 20:46, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: > But advantage over a BEV to *whom*? A consumer, a manufacturer, and a > policymaker all will view an FCEV compared to a BEV very differently. Again speaking strictly for myself, how about "all of the above"? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = All my life, I've been running through the fields and picking up bright objects. I turn one over and say, "Yeah, there's a story." -- Ray Bradbury = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 17 Aug 2021 at 18:50, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: > Your question is a good one, though unclear. Maybe I'm missing some nuance, but I thought it was reasonably clear. Peter asked: > What, exactly, do people see as the advantage(s) of a FCEV over a BEV? The "exactly" gives it a somewhat challenging tone, but I hope you'll overlook that. :-) Parenthetically, I understand that you probably feel like you're in the minority here. You are; we DO have a lot of FCEV and hydrogen skeptics. But I'm sure that some of us are also rather interested in what motivates the H2 community, even if we might not be part of it. Speaking for myself now, I'd love to see you simply list the factors that led YOU YOURSELF to choose an FCEV over a BEV, if that's not too personal. I guess that would be "advantages to the consumer." Not to put words in your mouth, or keys under your fingers, but maybe: - To get more range? - To have faster fueling? - To support fuel cell and/or an H2 Economy development? - Others? It might also help for you to tell us approximately WHEN you bought your FCEV. That would give us an idea of what BEVs were like then. If you think the above is none of my business, that's fine; then please just list some general FCEV advantages over BEVs for today's generic vehicle buyer. I'd like to ask you a few more questions, if you don't mind. Again you're welcome to say MYOB. 1. Do you have another vehicle at your disposal, for when you need to drive where no hydrogen fueling is available? 2. If so, is it BEV or ICEV? 3. If so, about what percentage of your driving do you log on that vehicle per year, vs what percentage on your FCEV? 4. Given the state of the art in BEVs today - battery capacities at 50- 100kWh, ranges of 300-400+ miles, fast charging at 150-250kW and soon 300kW - if you were buying a car now, would you still choose an FCEV over a BEV? 5. Why or why not? Again, if you don't want to answer any or all of those questions, fine; please just say "I'd prefer to pass on that one." No need to question the questions. "MYOB" won't hurt my feelings. :-) Thanks! David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Imagine if workers hired consultants and "compensation committees," consisting of their peers at other companies, to recommend how much they should be paid. The result would be -- well, we know what it would be, because that's what CEOs do. -- Matthew Stewart = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
On 16 Aug 2021 at 14:03, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: > The article used Bar instead of PSI. Engineers and Scientists may > know that one Bar is 14.7 pounds per square inch at sea level but the general > public understands PSI a whole lot better. I guess it depends on who the intended audience is. I'm not familar with the article, but I'm pretty sure that PSI is really only spoken regularly in the US. It might also have some use in Canada and the UK. The sensible metric world uses bar and/or kPa (1 bar == 100 kPa). > The 2,000 hours [for fuel cell life] came from Bill Moore, Editor of EV > World ... back in the early 2000 ... I see where Toyota is touting the > Mirai has a 150,000 to 200,000 range ... If Toyota has accomplished that kind of life extension, congratulations to them! I have to wonder, though, how much Toyota spent on FC development, and what they could have done to improve EV batteries with the same resources. > I understand your love for HFCEVs but from some of the responses here, a > lot more development has to take place and then an infrastructure build > out. I can understand it too. I think most of us tend to glom onto certain developments as "the future." At some point either that future really develops, or you and up with a large "sunk cost" of sorts and have trouble breaking loose. Mark's observation that (paraphrasing) FCEV uptake is 7 years behind BEVs is interesting. That may yet be turn out to be the case. But I think that BEVs and FCEVs are "disruptive" in such different ways that there may not be room for both to fully develop. One example pops into my mind right away. FCEVs face the same chicken-and-egg problem that EVs did 10 years ago. Nobody wants to buy one because there's no place to fill it up with H2, and they're sure not going to fill it up at home. But there's no place to fill it up because there aren't enough FCEVs on the road to make building H2 filling stations viable. Also, H2 filling stations are fairly expensive. I've read that it's about $2.8 million to build one. However, an existing gasoline/Diesel filling station can add 150kW DC fast charging at about $140k per pedestal. That's a HUGE difference in cost, and it goes a long way toward explaining why Total Petroleum is dropping fast charging into many of their motorway filling station stops, and not (as far as I know) building hydrogen stations. (They're involved with H2 production using renewable energy, however.) The other thing that might explain Total's fast public charging expansion is enormous gains in EV sales in Europe. EU Vehicle sales were generally down in 2020 thanks to the pandemic, but 2020 EV sales there increased 142% over 2019. It seems to me that BEVs and PHEVs have all the momentum. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it as very likely that, in 7 more years, FCEVs will be where EVs are now. One possible bright spot for FCEVs is Japan. The Japanese government's support for EVs is really tepid. Meanwhile, Toyota is all in for FCEVs, and they have a lot of pull in that government. I can squint hard and maybe see a future for Toyota FCEVs kind of like Sony minidisks were 15 years ago - modestly popular in Japan, while of mostly specialist uptake elsewhere. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The phrase "May you live in interesting times" is the lowest in a trilogy of Chinese curses that continues "May you come to the attention of those in authority," and finishes with "May the gods give you everything you ask for." I have no idea about its authenticity. -- Terry Pratchett = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers? =Ryobi variable speed?
On 16 Aug 2021 at 16:02, Steves via EV wrote: > I was going to suggest an ET but they are showing their age. I think this is more of a problem for the large-frame tractors, E12-20. I'd estimate that 80% of the problems are with the circuit card for GE's toaster coil controller, and with the reversing relay (if it's fitted). Rip that stuff out and put in a modern solid state controller, and you have a reliable tractor. I did that with an E15, and it was a vast improvement. The small-frame tractors (E8/10, riding mowers) don't have any motor speed control at all, which eliminates controller problems. Essentially they're gas tractors/riders with a motor in place of the engine. The motor is always off, or at full speed. You use a clutch and a multi-speed transmission to stop and start and set forward speeds. There's just not much to go wrong. I got my New Idea R36 rider (GE ER8-36) in 2001, and it's served me well with very little trouble. I run it hard, too, mowing something over an acre of pasture with lots of hidden roots and rocks. I had new bearings put in all 3 motors about 10 years ago, and one mower motor again this spring. I also had to change a rear axle because I tore up the key and keyway on it by hauling too many logs in my garden cart. I also replaced the motor mower fuses with circuit breakers. The fuses would open when I was loading it down too much mowing 18-20" high grass, and they were kind of expensive. I can't think of any other problems I've had with it. Every spring, sharpen and balance the blades, grease it up, and check the tire pressure. Change the batteries when they need it. The small frame tractors use three 12v group 27 marine batteries, except for a few "heavy duty" E8s that take 6 marine batteries in series-parallel. Now and then you might have to change the diodes or capacitor in the charger. Or you can dump it and replace it with a more modern charger. A lithium conversion sounds nice. You'd probably want to replace the GE boat-anchor charger. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = So if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard, just ask. I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNs. People just submitted it. I don't know why. They trust me. Dumb f***s. -- Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg, 2003/11/19 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers? - Using my Prius cells?
On 16 Aug 2021 at 14:40, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > Though, I bet they have sensing at the 24 and 36v taps to control > charging and those taps will not exist. No sensing - they're not that sophisticated! The smaller tractors - ER8-36, E8, E10 - don't have a lift or lights, so it's not a problem. The large frame tractors have battery taps for the lights (12v) and for the electric front implement lift (18v). The lights can be swapped out for LEDs to run at the full voltage. I run my lift at 24v and I know of at least one person who has it at 36v (that might be a bit high). You could run a 42v system with a tap at 16.8v or possibly 25.2v for the lift. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = A pioneer wanted to cut a tree down that didn't cost him any- thing, but he never did plant one. He wanted to plow up land that should have been left to grass. He thought it was nature he was living off of, but it was really future generations he was living off of. -- Will Rogers = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers? =Ryobi variable speed?
Many of the GE Elec-Trak electric lawn tractors from the 1970s are still around and doing yeoman duty. Buying a clean used one should cost MUCH less than $3000. Recently an acquaintance of mine from around here sold his ER8- 36 small electric rider mower for $500 on EBAY. All it needed was new batteries. The models to look for are probably the smaller, simpler ones: GE ER8-36 / Wheel Horse A-65 / New Idea R36 Wheel Horse E-60, E-81 GE E8 / New Idea EGT80 GE E10 . New Idea EGT100 The larger models will also serve (the E15 seems to be the most common): GE E12 / E12M / New Idea EGT-120 GE E14 / Wheel Horse B-145 GE E15 / New Idea EGT-150 GE E16 GE E20 / Wheel Horse C-185 / New Idea EGT-200 GE I5 If you're not in too much of a hurry, I suggest joining the Elec-Trak discussion list, and watching for someone to put one up for sale. cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak I got an invalid certificate warning on that website just now. It seems OK, but I'll ask on the list today. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Consultant: someone who borrows your watch, tells you what time it is, pockets the watch, and sends you a bill for it. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all
I'm not an expert, just a longtime EV follower, but I think that when it comes to road vehicles, hydrogen had its chance and missed it. In 2001, the limitation on EVs was, and always had been, the battery. In 1999, the GM EV1 had had a 26kWh NiMH battery, and the Nissan Altra EV had had a 32 kWh lithium ion battery - more than respectable for the time. But NiMH was artificially locked out of real world EVs, and both types were hideously expensive. For all intents and purposes, in 2001 EV batteries were still lead. A typical conversion carried maybe 12kWh of usable capacity. Who here would have guessed then that 20 years hence we'd have production EVs at all, much less production EVs with batteries in the 50-100kWh capacity range? Who would have thought that 150kW public charging would start to appear on main highways, potentially charging a 50kWh battery in 20 minutes? In 2001, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai all had concept and/or demonstration FCEVs running. The feeble BEV range of the time opened a window of opportunity for them. Honda was the first to US market (California lease only) with the FCX Clarity in 2008. Between 2008 and 2015, they leased all of 48. (They now have another on offer, but again only in California, for reasons that will become clear in a moment.) After what they did with getting the Prius to market, you'd think that if anyone could make FCEVs a success, it would be Toyota. Toyota put the Mirai FCEV on US offer in 2015 (exactly 6 years ago to the day, in fact). It had a fairly impressive per-fillup range of 312 miles. Unfortunately, that hydrogen fillup cost about $85. And since hydrogen was nigh onto unavailable anywhere but in California (even today only 17 other states have *any* H2 stations), that was the only state where you could buy one - or drive one. That same year, 2015, you could buy a Tesla Model S 85D with 260+ miles of range and fill it up at any supercharger in any state. The S cost more than the Mirai did, but the cost of "free" supercharger use for as long as you owned it was still built into the price of the car. 2016 Sales Toyota Mirai: 1,034 Tesla Model S: 29,421 Now why do you suppose Tesla sold over 28 times as many in 2016? I have serious reservations about any automaker developing its own fueling infrastructure, but the fact is that Tesla built superchargers by the dozens and hundreds. How many hydrogen filling stations did Toyota build? EVs are a HUGE change in vehicle culture. Public charging for them is a HUGE investment in infrastructure. The reality of capitalism is that it resists such changes with all its might. Thus it's almost a miracle that we've seen BEVs become more or less mainstream, at least in Europe. A change like that doesn't come along often. TWO of each - BEVs and FCEVs, charging service and hydrogen fuel service - just aren't bloody likely to develop in one generation, let alone in a decade or two. BEV public charging is growing fast, and its power is too. BEVs are now practical for many drivers, sometimes as an only vehicle. Hydrogen fueling is barely growing at all. FCEVs still aren't practical transportation for anyone outside of a limited region in California. BEVs have all the momentum, and I just don't see that changing. Twenty years ago, FCEVs *could* have succeeded, if the manufacturers had really wanted them to. But they didn't, so FCEVs missed the road vehicle alt-fuel train. I could be wrong, but I don't think there'll be another. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I think; therefore, I'm alone in the universe. -- Vern, "Over the Hedge" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] EVLN: EVs and the future of transport
Full article (LONG): https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/03/lost-history-electric-car- future-transport or https://v.gd/44r42X Highly condensed excerpts: In the 1890s ... Horse-drawn vehicles had been in use for thousands of years, and it was hard to imagine life without them. But ... the drawbacks of using horses in densely populated cities were becoming ever more apparent. In particular, the accumulation of horse manure on the streets, and the associated stench, were impossible to miss ... To advocates of a newly emerging technology, the solution seemed obvious: get rid of horses and replace them with self-propelling motor vehicles, known at the time as horseless carriages ... this transition has been cited as evidence of the power of innovation ... it should instead be seen as a cautionary tale in the other direction: that what looks like a quick fix today may well end up having far-reaching and unintended consequences tomorrow ... ... in doing away with one set of environmental problems, cars introduced a whole set of new ones. The pollutants they emit are harder to see than horse manure, but are no less problematic ... Today, electric cars, charged using renewable energy, are seen as the logical way to address these concerns. But the debate about the merits of electric cars turns out to be as old as the automobile itself ... The failure of electric vehicles in the early 20th century, and the emergence of the internal combustion engine as the dominant form of propulsion, had a lot to do with liquid fuel providing far more energy per unit mass than a lead-acid battery can. But the explanation is not purely technical. It also has a psychological component. Buyers of private cars, then as now, did not want to feel limited by the range of an electric vehicle´s battery, and the uncertainty of being able to recharge it ... Lithium-ion batteries have made the switch to electric cars possible ... But it would not address other problems associated with cars, such as traffic congestion, road deaths or the inherent inefficiency of using a one- tonne vehicle to move one person to the shops ... The supply of lithium and cobalt needed to make batteries, and of the "rare earth" elements need to make electric motors, are already raising environmental and geopolitical questions ... The future of urban transport will not be based on a single technology, but on a diverse mixture of transport systems, knitted together by smartphone technology ... David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made. -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Centenaries for trucks
The subject looks like an auto-incorrection error. I think it's supposed to be "catenaries." (Bloody smartphones think they're smarter than they are.) >From the Oxford Dictionary: Centenary: The hundredth anniversary of a significant event; a centennial. Catenary: A curve formed by a wire, rope, or chain hanging freely from two points and forming a U shape. Also: https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/Catenary > the onus would be on the German government to build the overhead > cables, which cost an estimated 2.5 million euros per kilometer, or > about $5 million per mile I may be missing something here, but wouldn't it be more economical to promote more use of rail freight instead? Maybe even subsidize it? EU rails are already electrified. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. -- Edward R Murrow = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] FTC vote on “Right to Repair” enforcement
On 2 Aug 2021 at 21:42, Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote: > it would be nice if all the manufacturers standardised the skateboards > into a few basic versions (compact, midsize, etc.) but this goes > against their financial best interests, so I doubt it will happen > anytime soon. Wouldn't such a design save them development costs, thus improving profits? I don't see why that wouldn't be in their financial best interests, but I may be missing something. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The problem with the future is that it keeps turning into the present. -- Bill Watterson, "Calvin and Hobbes" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Two Sparrows for Sale - Seattle Area
On 31 Jul 2021 at 9:12, clarke2 via EV wrote:
> not there
The link works for me.
https://seattle.craigslist.org/kit/snw/d/poulsbo-corbin-
sparrow/7357972484.html
Or since that URL will probably split, try https://v.gd/yoraxA
That's a sweet looking bird!
I wish you luck with this sale. These days, used EVs of all kinds except
Teslas seem to sell for a fraction of their original prices, possibly
because their new equivalents are so much more capable.
I thought that Sparrow was a brilliant idea back around 1994-5 when Tom
Corbin first started working on the early prototypes. They evaded FMVSS by
being a motorcycle, reducing development costs, and they offered salable
instant access to Califonia's HOV lanes. (Also, I have a soft spot for
tiny, efficient vehicles, but that's just me.)
Your Sparrows are gorgeous examples of the breed. The problem I see is that
the vehicle's' characteristics limit the set of potential buyers.
1. Low range. As with a conversion, and most old modern-production EVs,
this shuts out buyers with long commutes.
2. No dealers or mechanics. This eliminates buyers who can't or don't want
to work on their own cars. Here a Sparrow has it even worse than a
conversion, because at least with a conversion a neighborhood mechanic can
work on brakes and suspension.
3. Limited creature comforts and a spartan interior.
4. No passengers. In any other car, or even on a conventional motorcycle
(ICE or EV), you can share your ride with at least one passenger. How do
you show off your new car when you can't take your friends and family for
rides?
I hate to say it, but from the standpoint of practical EV transportation, a
$5,000 clapped-out 10-year-old Nissan Leaf has it all over this little guy.
On the upside, the Sparrow has way more character than a Leaf. :-)
Conversions are nigh onto worthless. In the past year I've sold 2 of them,
admittedly old and not in great shape, for about 3% of what I had invested
in them. ("Save 97%!")
OTOH, the Citicar and Comuta-Car - which share all of the above limitations
except that they can accept a passenger - have developed a surprisingly
enthusiastic following in recent years. I've seen C-cars selling in the $3-
5k range lately (I paid $800 for a 1980 C-car in 1988).
So if there's an equivalent following for Sparrows, you might indeed have
more buyers with more cash for this one.
Maybe not at $18k, though. I see online value estimates for 2000 Sparrow
pizzabacks at around $6.5k. Your complete car may be worth that or more,
depending on what shape the CALB battery is in. The extra one, I don't
know.
At any rate, again, good luck. Keep us posted.
David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
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Re: [EVDL] FTC vote on “Right to Repair” enforcement
On 30 Jul 2021 at 21:39, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
> This is a battle being fought between lots of hardware manufacturers and
> owners of devices ranging from cars to tractors to phones to laptops.
I had an insane idea in the 1990s, and it hasn't gotten any saner since. It
was down the block from impossible then, and probably right next door to it
now that EVs are actually in production, but it's kind of fun to dream
about.
My thought was that switching the world to EVs was an opportunity to rethink
the whole idea of how vehicles are designed, made, and sold.
We already have an open source EVSE. Why not an open source EV?
Call it the FLOSEV - Free, libre open source electric vehicle.
What I'm dreaming about is a simple, straightforward, no-frills reference
design EV. No power windows, no fancy sound system, no self-driving or
similar gimmicks and gadgets. Not even a specific body. Just a basic EV
platform that, with minimal changes, could be built as a functional 2- or 4-
door hatchback, small crossover, van, or pickup truck.
The design might be placed in the public domain, or it might follow the
Creative Commons, BSD, GNU, or other similar open licensing ("copyleft"?)
scheme.
Really ambitious EV hobbyists could build a FLOSEV from published plans.
Organizations, nonprofit or for-profit, could develop kits, semi-kits, and
finished vehicles. As with open source software, the design could be
improved or "forked" by others, as long as they adhered to the terms of the
license.
I know, an EV is orders of magnitude more complex than an EVSE. And there
would be enormous regulatory hurdles, especially since you'd want to meet as
many nations' standards as possible.
Financing the design would be a daunting challenge. For obvious reasons you
couldn't approach venture capitalists. Heck, if any showed interest, you'd
have to ward them off with tear gas and a large dog.
Donations would have to play a big part, but you'd have to be careful what
foundations, individuals, and governments you approached. Look what
happened to the Tropica / Xebra and the Solectria Sunrise when outside
organizations got involved.
As I said, this is utterly whacko. I can see hurdles, and I'm ignorant, so
I'm sure that an industry insider would see 50 foot walls topped with razor
wire, flanked by guard towers, and protected by armed guards.
But it's still intriguing to contemplate and dream about. Wouldn't a FLOSEV
knock the socks off of the big corporate automakers? :-)
Actually, the most likely scenario for something like this would be if the
Chinese government sponsored development of an EV platform that Chinese
automakers could adopt. That's not exactly what I have in mind though ...
David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
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Re: [EVDL] toyota is still a laggard
A quarter century ago, Toyota's legal tantrums worked for them here in the US, and their more recent whining about how tough EVs are for them has helped to keep Japan well behind the EU and China in EV adoption. * If Toyota had spent that money and effort on actually developing EVs, they might have something decent by now. They're running out of time to develop a good EV *and* a good rep as an EV company. They're going to need both to carry on with selling cars in France, Germany, Norway and the UK, because all of those nations have plans to ban the sale of ICEVs between 2030 and 2040. Toyota's execs are apparently determined to cling to their sinking Prius until they drown. * The numbers, in case you're curious: Japanese EV/PHEV sales in 2020 were down 28% from 2019, while in the EU they rose 137% (!) and in China they were up 12%. Even the US did better than 2019 with a 4% increase. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Nothing is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. -- Martin Luther King Jr = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] FTC vote on “Right to Repair” enforcement
On 28 Jul 2021 at 20:41, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: > What finally killed [the Ford Focus EV] in my mind was that if it > needed more than the windshield washer fluid checked or brake pads > replaced, the stealership would be helpless and it would probably be > trucked to Portland (3 hours away) for service. Ford doesn't teach dealer mechanices how to work on the cars their dealers sell? > It doesn't have turbo motorized toilet paper dispensers or the in-dash > espresso maker Don't give them ideas. :-\ David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I will never be seen taking to the streets to defend my poetry. The carpenter doesn't fight for his trusses. No one can fight morally for his nose or his feet, his teeth, or his hair. -- Pablo Neruda = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Electric mower - small question
On 25 Jul 2021 at 13:12, Seth Rothenberg via EV wrote: > what would it take to replace the cord + rectifier with some number of these > 40V packs which are available at 6Ah? If memory serves, Lee Hart did something similar with small Gates Cyclon lead cells many years ago. I hope he'll chime in with the details. Years ago, I converted a 120vac B mower to DC, replacing the 120v PM motor with a 36v one. I didn't try to use the handle switch for DC - I can't imagine that it would have fared well - but instead used it to operate a small golf car type contactor. The downside of that arrangement was that it sacrificed the dynamic blade braking that the mower had originally, and thus some safety. I powered mine from a 38v 10ah LiFePO4 battery. Instead of putting the battery on the mower, I carried it in a backpack, which made the mower easier to maneuver. One thing that surprised me was how much current the motor used just spinning the blade in free air, not even cutting. It was 6-8 amps, if I'm not mistaken. Seems like a lot, doesn't it? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = This raises a number of questions, such as "what's actually wrong with people?," and "is this legal in Spain?" -- Found on the net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Cheap and free EV parts
On 27 Jul 2021 at 0:03, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: > Refurbished example are $30 Sorry, I meant to say refurbs are $350 on EBAY. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't know. -- Mark Twain = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] Cheap and free EV parts
I have some used EV parts looking for new homes. Shipping is extra. For the freebies, you just pay shipping. All offered as-is; NO WARRANTY on anything, of anything, or for anything. I will sell all 3 DC:DC converters in one go for $60. DC:DC converter - Todd PC-20-LV. For 96 volt traction battery, 20 amp output. Tested and working about 2 years ago. Price $25. DC:DC converter - Curtis 1400E 72/96 1201P. For 72 or 96 volt traction battery, 22.2 amp output. Tested and working about 2 years ago. Refurbished example are $30 on EBay. Price $40. DC:DC converter - 3 bare modules with heatsinks attached, master and 2 boosters, removed from a running Pivco Citibee in 1999. Marked Powerbox PBD- I161M/JX and Made in Norway. For 120 volt traction battery. Untested. Price $20. General Electric forklift potbox type IC4485. Nice smooth strongly sprung threaded mechanical plunger can be pushed or pulled (goes all the way through the potbox). Resistance measures 9.3k released, 1.5 ohms fully depressed. Internal SPST microswitch makes at 1-2mm plunger travel. Heavy metal case. With cable & connector. I planned to use this on my Elec-trak but ended up taking a different route instead. Priced from $30 to $280 on EBAY. FREE. Battery charge gauge, Low Voltage Controls type LVC-EVM, mounts in 2" round hole, for 108 volt traction battery. Untested. FREE. Nice aluminum battery box or tray from Pivco Citibee, designed for 20 Saft STM5-100MR NiCd batteries. Has a plastic tray inside for holding the batteries at the correct spacing for air cooling, and an aluminum lid that screws on top. Dimensions: 28" wide, 40-3/4" long, 10-5/8" deep. Has AL dividers which can be removed by drilling out the rivets. Bracket on each side for mounting under a vehicle; these can also be removed. Has three 4.5" square holes in the back for cooling fans, and air slots in the front. Additional louvered panel attaches to the back to protect the fans. Probably shippable, but might not be worth it for either of us, so I'd prefer in person collection. Will scrap for AL value if no one wants it. FREE. Homemade dummy load for battery testing, ~100 amps at 144 volts. Ugly but functional. Made from a big old rusty steel mailbox missing its door, a 120v AC fan from a range hood, rewired resistance heat strips from a derelict heat pump, and a Kilovac EV250-1A contactor rated 250 amps at 320vdc with 12vdc coil. Kilovac economiser not working, but contactor is still usable. Dimensions 15" h x 11-1/2" w x 27" l. Also headed for the scrapyard if not claimed. FREE. If you want photos, please contact me offlist: http://evdl.org/help/#supt David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = First Law of Bicycling: No matter which way you ride, it's uphill and against the wind. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior
On 26 Jul 2021 at 9:06, Steve Clunn via EV wrote: > If your 12v alx battery is going bad it could be pulling power from the DC to > DC converter and draining the traction battery down more than usual. Well said, and quite possible. I had that happen to an EV in storage many years ago. I'd neglected to open the main breaker when I garaged it, so the DC:DC was still floating the house battery. The house battery developed a shorted cell. The DC:DC was set at 6-cell float, not 5-cell, so it kept pouring its current limit into the house battery, even when the traction battery's voltage fell too low. When I went to drive the EV again, it had a trashed house battery, a flat and sulphated traction battery, and a failed DC:DC. Lesson learned. This recollection makes me wonder whether production EVs are designed to guard against such failures. With all the computer power they have on board, you'd think it would be easy to add a few pages of code to recognize that kind of fault and shut everything down. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I really hate this darn machine I think that I will sell it It never does quite what I want But only what I tell it = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior
On 24 Jul 2021 at 18:38, paul dove via EV wrote: > I suggest you disrobe it and charge it on a regular basis. Oh, you young guys. That's all you think about. :-) David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = All we learn from history is history repeats. -- Andrew Ratshin = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior
On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit > around, especially in a hot location. Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry? I'm not a lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking. It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from "inside the house," so to speak. That is, they might be from the BMS. I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge. For long term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible - but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = First they came for the journalists. We don't know what happened after that. -- Unknown = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Fossil fuel gets over 600 billion a year.
On 23 Jul 2021 at 11:47, paul dove via EV wrote: > Many people believe oil is a couple of. I guess there's a word or two missing there, because I have no idea what that sentence is supposed to mean. > with 100's of companies drilling, storing, transporting, refining etc. > certain segments aren't profitable. Aw, poor babies. Their poverty wrenches at my heart. I'll just carve this toothpick into a sad little violin for them. The big money fat cats are always talking about the purity and perfection of free markets. Well, let's go for it. Let's free up the oil market. Phase out the tax-financed petro-welfare, and let the famously dispassionate invisible hand of the free market settle the profitability problem. Put those 600 billion public tax dollars toward something with actual public benefit - oh, I dunno, how about universal public health insurance, to cover the public health costs of pollution and climate change? Ha, ha, just kidding! As the poor suffering unprofitable refiners and other parts of the greasy supply chain lose their handouts and fail, the huge monopolists will absorb them. The "excessive competition" problem will just fade away. Of course the price of fuel will rise to pay the actual unsubsidized supply costs, plus a nice fat profit for the monopolists and their stockholders. As it rises, eventually even Joe Tonka with his 3-ton big-boy-toy truck will start to see the EV light - maybe even the PV light too. Ha, ha, just kidding! David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Take the longest nap possible. Do not nap underneath trucks. -- US Army Field Manual FM 7-22 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] CC accepted?
On 22 Jul 2021 at 3:47, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > I just got a CC from the EVDL. Is carbon copy now allowed with EVDL > messages? Short Answer: Yes and no. Best Answer: No. Long answer: No, but yes under some circumstances. Even Longer Answer: Because of antispam measures that big email providers put in place a few years ago, the list software has to change the headers of messages, or they'll be rejected when they get to some mailboxes. (Email me offlist if you want further explanation of this.) As part of this header-munging, the list software jams the sender's address into the CC field. When you reply to a post, some overly-helpful email clients add THAT address, the original sender's, to the CC field in your reply. (By the way, this header tweaking is the reason that the now-moribund Nabble archive stopped tagging our posts with the actual senders' names a few years ago. Nabble could have fixed it. Don't get me started.) Anyway, the listserver doesn't like receiving posts that have any address other than ev@lists.evdl.org. This is for the sake of privacy - it doesn't know whether any extra address is a list member whose address has already been revealed, or whether it's someone's private non-list address. (You'd think it could check that, but it doesn't.) So, if you send a post with more than just ev@lists.evdl.org, the listserver will hold it until I have a chance to check it and make sure that there are no private offlist addresses in it. That could be anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours. At least it's supposed to, though it seems to miss such posts at times, for reasons I don't understand. The bottom line: please put ev@lists.evdl.org in TO - and nothing else. And definitely don't ever add email addresses of people who aren't members of this list in the TO or CC fields. If you must add more addresses, put them in the BCC field. Clear as 20 year old Ford plastic headlight lenses? Thank you for paying attention to this stuff. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Too many people make it their business to make their business things that are none of their business. -- Lolapin = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] The Verge: One of the biggest myths about EVs is busted in new study
Although he dealt with HCs, CO, NOx, SO2, and particulates, but not CO2, one of our own list members, Chip Gribben, put paid to that rubbish about 25 years ago. His thoroughly researched paper, "Debunking the Myth of EVs and Smokestacks," is available in the EVDL library: http://evdl.org/docs/powerplant.pdf David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different from saying that you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say. -- Edward Snowden = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] EVLN: Sticking to the stink
"Ford made a premium gas fragrance for EV owners who miss the smell of fossil fuels" https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/16/22580508/ford-gas-perfume-premium-mach- eau or https://v.gd/JkwfOE Apparently this is a thing. Just today, hours before reading this, I was chatting with a young sales person in a hardware store. She was perhaps in her mid-20s. We talked about the store's electric mowers and then somehow got onto EVs. She said that the new EVs were OK, even interesting, but that she'd never buy one. Why not? Because she'd miss the noise and the stink of ICEs. I guess she was serious. She even specifically mentioned the stench of unburned hydrocarbons. It's a strange addiction, entirely beyond my ken, but there you have it. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Talking about the contents of this poster is illegal. It is important that you share this information with colleagues and neighbors, and discuss it with your family. Failure to do so may lead to prosecution. For more information please reread. -- Scarfolk Council poster = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Fossil fuel gets over 600 billion a year.
On 17 Jul 2021 at 16:14, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: > I divided the total subsides by the gallons of diesel and gas used in the > United States and got $3.76. That would put gas at 8 dollars a gallon. For one thing, I can't figure out where you got $8. Up the road here the filling stations are charging $3.10 per gallon, and the national average is $3.20 - so $6.96? That's only about a buck more per gallon than the current gasoline price in France ($1.55 per liter). Despite the automakers' efforts, French folk, along with other Europeans, still tend to buy smaller vehicles than here. Meanwhile EVs are showing triple-digit percentage sales gains (169% last I read) year-on-year there. So ... sounds good! Oh, wait, Americans generally aren't very rational in their vehicle choices. They buy what the automakers advertise and what the dealers push. Never mind; carry on. I also doubt that the effect on fuel prices is as easy to derive as "divide the petro-welfare by gallons sold." I'm neither a petroleum specialist nor an economist, but IMO it's likely that petro-welfare takes many different forms - tax incentives for exploration, credits for depletion of reserves, and so on. Some probably affect the compamies' profits (and thus their prices) long term, others short term; some more, some less. And Paul is right; oil is a worldwide business. It seems to me (again, I'm not an economist) that if the US tax situation becomes less favorable to the oil companies, they'll simply (on paper) move their businesses to a more generous nation. The recent G20 agreement on minimum corporate taxes is supposed to somewhat reduce corporations' ability to run to their mamas, but my bet is that it will be, shall we say, unevenly implemented. Besides, the oily crowd will just throw their brib ... er, I mean lobbying money at politicians who'll reject or, if necessary, repeal those changes and agreements. Simultaneously both the oil companies and the pols will work their propaganda outlets to spin any diminution of petro-welfare as "the biggest middle class tax hike in 100 years" and "SOCIALISM!1!!" So don't hold your breath waiting for US gasoline at $6 a gallon, let alone $8 or $12. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. -- Mark Twain = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] AutoPilot drops out on tight road turns.
On 12 Jul 2021 at 21:54, mark hanson via EV wrote: > https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/bay-area-man-killed-in-tesla-crash-had-com > plained-about-autopilot/ The KRON article says that the accident victim, Walter Huang, had previously experienced the Tesla's autopilot steering toward the same barrier that it hit when Huang was killed. This glitch happened repeatedly. Not to minimize Tesla's responsibility here; I still think that they are way overselling autopilot, to say nothing of "full self driving." But why on earth would anyone who'd seen autopilot screw up this way, more than once at that, continue to rely on it? I approve of safety enhancing features in vehicles, but I think that we have to be careful that they don't lull drivers into a false sense of security. And when a "driving assistance" device such as autopilot has PROVEN itself unreliable, and you keep on using it ... well, I'll be polite, and let you put a label on what that says about the driver. BTW, you do keep your mobile phone in your pocket when you're driving, right? Things happen mighty fast at 70mph. A possibly entertaining automotive-gadgetry anecdote: A couple of years ago, my friend in France rented an (ICEV) Renault Clio to drive to an appointment in the Big City 45 minutes away. She left plenty early, which turned out to be a smart move. She headed out of town on a 2-lane road and very quickly became a hazard. The car wouldn't go over 50 km/h (30 mph). Traffic backed up behind her, the drivers honking, gesturing, passing in risky places. So she pulled off onto the shoulder. It took over 20 minutes of searching the car's owner's manual (in French of course), but this is how she learned that newer and fancier EU cars not only have such gimmicks as "lane holding," but also adjustable speed limiters to deal with the speed traps. Apparently the last person to rent that car had left it engaged at the town speed limit, 50 km/h. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views. This can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering. -- Doctor Who, "The Face of Evil" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Tesla's Self Driving Feature
On 9 Jul 2021 at 15:43, Willie via EV wrote: > I thank you for your candidness. This "I hate Elon and no level of > superior performance can overcome that hatred" caught me by complete > surprise. But, it explains much that has puzzled me. I didn't say that. Tesla's competition has helped push EV development forward. Elon Musk has become a liability to Tesla and looks set to hamper its ability to continue the progress in the future. That's the main reason I think he needs to go. Tesla doesn't offer a vehicle that suits my needs and objectives, so my reaction to him really isn't relevant in a purchasing decision. That said, I have no quibble with people who won't buy Teslas (or at least hesitate to) because of Musk's antisocial behavior. With the feeble business regulation we have here in the US, our personal spending is just about the only way we have to influence the actions of corporations and their principals. The good news is that if you don't want to buy an EV from Elon Musk, regardless of the reason, every year there are more and more good alternatives. That's even more the case in Europe, where the list of EVs on offer is longer and more varied than it is here. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I learned "sesquipedalian" from Mark Twain, who used it as an adjective to describe a long word. Sesquipedalian is a sesqui- pedalian word. In a world where phonetically is not spelled the way it sounds, and Gary Oldman was a young man when Henny Youngman was an old man, it was nice to have a word that actually described itself. -- found on the internet = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Tesla's Self Driving Feature
On 9 Jul 2021 at 10:20, Willie via EV wrote: > Some here just can not accept that it was done by Tesla. I can not > understand the anti-Tesla bias. I've said this several times, but once more: I'm not opposed to, or biased against, Tesla as a company. They design outstanding vehicles. They've advanced production EV progress by at least 5 years, maybe 10. Reportedly they still have trouble with quality control, but that can be fixed. Tesla has been, and contnues to be, a big force driving EVs forward. However, I have a couple of concerns about them that are tougher to fix. #1. I'm deeply skeptical about autopilot, and I think that it's going to get them tangled in significant legal problems. I'm also skeptical of all similar gadgetry by other automakers. I don't have the same legal concerns with them, though. They listen to their lawyers. Musk doesn't. AFAIK, Tesla is the only manufacturer that pushes "full self driving." FSD is a liability magnet. #2. I'm concerned about Elon Musk himself. His impulsiveness and schoolboy antics will damage or even destroy Tesla in the long run. It's kind of amusing the way he rails against Tesla's short sellers. HE is part of the reason that they're betting against the company. Tesla has stayed ahead of the damage he causes so far, because there wasn't much really good competition. But that's changing fast, especially in the EU. I think that most Tesla devotees are either unaware of or underestimate the level of distaste (to put it mildly) for Elon Musk that exists on the periphery of EV interest. I know, the plural of anecdote isn't data, but I see a lot of comments online from thoughtful, reasonable people who'd like to own EVs, but aren't at all keen on handing their money to Musk. Musk did great things for Tesla and for EVs initially, but it's past time for him to go. If he won't go voluntarily, he should be removed from the company. Give him a nice golden parachute (not that he needs one) and push him out. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The future is here, and everything needs to be destroyed. -- Allegheny Shredders = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Tesla's Self Driving Feature
On 9 Jul 2021 at 4:10, paul dove via EV wrote: > This is hearsay! I don't think so. Paul, are you suggesting that Mark is unreliable, or that his friend is faking the injuries from the friend's Tesla wrecks? Let's review the definition of "hearsay." From the Oxford Dictionary: hearsay (Pronunciation /'hirsa/ /'hrse/) Information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If you aren't sure whether you can do this, just try it. The worst thing that can happen is that your computer could explode. -- GIMP Documentation = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Tesla's Self Driving Feature
On 8 Jul 2021 at 20:56, mark hanson via EV wrote: > A friend's wife totaled a model 3 on a country road ... my friend > ... totaled a second Tesla-3 ... has some medical issues from the > accident. So sorry to hear that. Condolences to your friends, and hopes for an eventual full recovery. > I guess I'm old fashioned, I'm happy with an electric car that just runs ... With you 100% there. > I suspect that the accident rate for the full self driving feature is > probably underreported though. What Justin said eariler supports that notion: > for truly dangerous situations it can't handle, well surely autopilot > wouldn't be engaged in an accident, since it would have kicked the user > out of it moments before the problem. It seems more than a little disingenuous for Tesla to release all those statements that "autopilot wasn't engaged when the crash happened" when autopilot is conveniently designed not to be. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = That's not a "cloud," It's just someone else's computer. -- Anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] here's another plug for EVs
On 9 Jul 2021 at 0:21, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > As little as 12 percent of the energy from a car´s gasoline fuel goes > toward making it move. I've seen this number cited a few times before. I would have guessed something closer to 15-18%, but given our penchant here in the US for 2+ ton monster trucks with gigantic engines, 12% might be about right. Just for kicks, below is a link to a paper from 2011 which evaluates a highly fuel efficient conventional ICEV then available in Europe, a Diesel VW Lupo (rated 78mpg). It concluded that the Lupo captured about 28% of the energy in the fuel. http://sites.science.oregonstate.edu/~giebultt/COURSES/ph313/ppt/carefficienc y.pdf And that's about as good as it gets for ICEVs. > By contrast, battery electric vehicles are between 60 and 100 percent > efficient. Uh ... no. While EVs are unquestionably a LOT more efficient than ICEVs, I'm pretty sure that the upper limit of their efficiency range is less than 100 percent. There's some good info in this piece, but I don't think the article's author, Sarah Kaplan, helped make her case with that obviously implausible statement. It kind of knocks her credibility all askew. So it goes in "journalism," unfortunately. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Celebrity: a person known for his well-knownness. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] New York Times article about teen death by Tesla pic up truck on auto pilot is click bait.
Clickbait or no, the article raises a couple of valid questions. Sensible and sober people who research such things for investment purposes will tell you that when it comes to SDV, Tesla isn't out in front. The leaders are Waymo (Alphabet/Google), Cruise (GM), and Argo (VW/Ford). Tesla is a lower echelon player, maybe in the same league as Bosch, Volvo, and Renault/Nissan/Mitsubishi. Tesla also recently REMOVED some of the sensors that the autopilot system uses. I don't see how that's going to make it more accurate. The questions: 1. Why does Tesla call their most expensive autopilot "full self driving" when it isn't? 2. Why is autopilot so careless about making sure that the driver stays on duty and attentive? I'm not an insider, but I suspect that that the answer to both of these questions is "because Elon Musk wants it that way." The tech isn't ready, but Musk doesn't want to wait. He can't help it. He's a techbro. It's in his deep blue billionaire blood. Musk seems to think that he's above the law, bigger and stronger than the NHTSA bulldozer. He's putting himself, and Tesla, right in front of it. It'll be interesting to see who wins. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. A man who could afford fifty dollar boots had a pair that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap [ten dollar] boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. -- Terry Pratchett, "Men at Arms: The Play" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EV Signs for your vehicle
On 4 Jul 2021 at 19:46, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > To have a magnetic "ELECTRIC" sign made was over $100, I found the > perfect $1.65 solution. Home depot sells a 3.5" x 9" magnetic Student > Driver sign. Well done! If you want a real custom printed sign, you can do better than $100, though not as low as $1.65. There are several online services which make this kind of stuff. You design your image on your computer, save it as a graphic file, upload it, pay them, and a week or so later the item arrives in the mail. A few times over the years I've made custom mugs, clothing, and totes (though not mag signs) through a service called Vistaprint. They were about the cheapest I could find, though there may be more/different competition now. Anyway, I see that they offer mag vehicle signs in various sizes and prices, from $25 for an 8.7" x 11.5" sign, to $72 for a 18" x 24" sign. Not $1.65, but not $100 either, and they'll stand up to rain better than a paper printouit taped to a plastic "student driver" sign, in case that matters. You might also check with the local public library. I don't know about signs, but around here one of the libraries has a gadget that will print any image you want (as long as it's legal I suppose) on a T-shirt. All you pay is a small materials fee. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = There'll be one corporation, selling one little box. It'll do what you want, and tell you what you want, And cost whatever you've got. -- Greg Brown, "Where is Maria," 1996 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] EVLN: Improved EV Battery Recycling Method
Researchers at the University of Leicester [have] found a way to use ultrasonic waves to separate out valuable materials from electrodes so that the materials can be fully recovered from batteries at the end of their life. Current recycling methods for lithium-ion battery recycling typically feed end-of-life batteries into a shredder or high-temperature reactor ... The disassembly of lithium-ion batteries has been shown to recover a high yield (around 80 per cent of the original material) in a purer state than was possible using shredded material ... The team´s ultrasonic delamination technique effectively blasts the active materials required from the electrodes leaving virgin aluminium or copper. The process proved highly effective in removing graphite and lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxides, commonly known as NMC. Full story: https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/06/efficient-battery- recycling-method-borrows-technique-pioneered-by-dentists/ OR: https://v.gd/vuItDK David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = It is well known (Potts, 2014; Catcher, 2014) that the internet is made of cats. The net is a series of tubes (Stevens, 2006) through which cats carry information in packets (Butterworth, 2011). The failure modes have been less well studied. Several exist, but to date the most researched are fracture, disjunc- tion, and joule-based disruption. FRACTURE causes complete regional internet failure. It occurs when construction or other human activity severs or collapses an underground tunnel through which the cats travel. The symptom of DISJUNCTION is high lat- ency; the usual cause is hooligans placing containers of tuna or cream at tunnel junctions. Data corruption results from JOULE- BASED DISRUPTION, caused by the static charge that accumulates as long-haired cats speed through the tunnels. This shocks the cats, who drop their packets. -- Lolapin (2020) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Need help with Series Wound Dc motor controller.
On 29 Jun 2021 at 22:52, Basem Samarah via EV wrote: > Re sharing schematic, as a link in drop box. Please let me know if you can not > access it. I will attempt to re-share :) or can add your email directly. I can see the schematic just fine here, and I have no dropbox account. Well done! David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = War will never cease until babies begin to come into the world with larger cerebrums and smaller adrenal glands. -- H L Mencken = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] EV list archive
The Nabble archive is down and probably won't be returning. For the present, please use the backup archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/ More info later. Sorry for the inconvenience. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Nowadays it's not important if a story's real. The only thing that really matters is whether people click on it. -- Neetzan Zimmerman of Gawker = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Bob's EV and SOlar obsession in Baltimore Sun
On 19 Jun 2021 at 15:25, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-rodricks/bs-md-rodricks-06 > 20-20210618-zgplxgdbfza2jby6uhhqgbgyna-story.html Nice piece! I'm impressed that the writer understood what use you make of the PV on the Frankenvolt. However, I'm curious as to how you connected Priuses to motorcycle batteries to increase their driving range. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = In politics, stupidity is not a handicap. -- Paul Graham = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] EVLN: NHTSA investigating Tesla autopilot fatalities
US safety regulators have opened 30 investigations into Tesla crashes involving 10 deaths since 2016 where an advanced driver assistance system was suspected to have been in use. [...] Of the 30 Tesla crashes, NHTSA has ruled out Tesla´s Autopilot in three and published reports on two of the crashes. Full story: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jun/18/thirty-tesla-crashes- linked-to-assisted-driving-system-under-investigation-in-us or https://v.gd/gR6oK7 David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If you made a column of things you're pretty sure you know, and then made another column of how you know those things, most of that column is like: "Some guy told me." It's just clickbait and hearsay. Goes into the head, locks onto a feeling, you're like: "That sounds good. I'm gonna tell other people that." And that's how brand marketing works, and also fascism, we're finding. -- Marc Maron = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Mike Brown, promoter of EV conversions, has passed away - memorial service info
Really sorry to hear of this. Mike ran Electro Automotive, a conversion parts and kits supplier, along with his wife Shari Prange. They were significant parts of the now-atrophied EV conversion and hobbyist world. He was one of those helping to keep the EV movement moving in the days after GM snatched back and crushed the EV1s, along with the hopes of no small number of EV enthusiasts. Mike was active on this list for a while, posting about 60 times from 2007 to 2013, mostly helping folks with their conversion questions and problems. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = These are horrible times to be a science-fiction writer. All the dystopian scenarios you can dream up become real before you've even finished the first draft. -- Anonymous = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Green car reports - illegible?
I don't know about other browsers, use them only when necessary, but those
in the Mozilla family can be set to override website link colors with the
user's preferences. It's in menu-edit-preferences-appearance-colors ("use
my chosen colors"). It makes not only Green Car Reports, but the whole web,
look more 1999. :-)
David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
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If at first you don't succeed, skydiving probably isn't for you.
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[EVDL] EVLN: SEC dings Elon Musk again
On Tuesday 1 June the Wall Street Journal reported that late last year the SEC notified Tesla that Elon Musk was in breach of a 2019 agreement with them to have his Twitter posts checked by Tesla's attorneys. >From The Guardian: "The SEC had sued Musk after he tweeted on 7 August 2018 that he had 'funding secured' to take Tesla private at $420 a share. The agency alleged the tweet, which sent the electric automaker´s share price up as much as 13.3%, violated securities laws ... "Musk settled the lawsuit in a court-approved deal. He did not admit wrongdoing, but agreed to step down as chairman and have the company´s lawyers pre-approve written communications, including tweets with material information about the company. Musk and Tesla also paid $20m each to settle the case. "But in correspondence sent to Tesla in 2019 and 2020, the SEC said tweets Musk wrote about Tesla´s solar roof production volumes and its stock price were not pre-approved by Tesla´s lawyers, the Journal reported, citing records of communication that had not been previously reported. "'Tesla has abdicated the duties required of it by the court´s order,' the SEC told Tesla in a May 2020 letter. "The SEC and Tesla did not immediately respond to a request for comment. They also did not respond to inquiries from Reuters and the Wall Street Journal." Full story: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jun/02/elon-musk-tweets-tesla- sec-settlement or https://v.gd/yc4rtp David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I have three rules to live by. One, get your work done. If that doesn't work, shut up and drink your gin. And when all else fails, run like hell. -- Ray Bradbury = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] exxon finally got the memo
On 2 Jun 2021 at 8:14, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: > it will also be a transition for those that see the names of oil > companies, and presume that whatever the subject, it must be evil. That's not an easy transition for those of us who remember all too well such names as Texaco, Chevron, and Cobasys, and for those who will always associate the names Exxon and Valdez. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists, and then believe what they read. -- Karl Kraus = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Vandalism charge for charging EV?
Personally I suspect that your insecurity guard is the real vandal here. It might be interesting to see what kind of vehicle he drives, and how often he ICEs EV spaces. Since Hilton only installed 2 EVSEs for a series of hotels I'd say they don't qualify as an "EV destination," nor do they appear to have any particular interest in attracting EV drivers. Hilton's management may or may not care, but I'd defintely contact Plugshare and let them know of your experience. They should also document the low grade facilities there. That's a lot of bucks they charged you for rude service. I've stayed in some major cities, including Paris and Seoul, for less per night, and with more courtesy. What a racket. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = The primary purpose of the DATA statement is to give names to constants. Instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every appearance, the variable PI can be given that value with a DATA statement and used instead of the longer form of the constant. This also simplifies modifying the program, should the value of pi change. -- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Tesla now using cameras only
On 28 May 2021 at 21:08, Mark Hanson via EV wrote: > All manufacturing companies are constantly reducing costs, maximizing profits. Right. And when those cost reductions make the product less safe, the long term cost can end up being much higher. And that's just the economic cost. The human cost is another matter entirely. It was cheaper for Ford to pay legal judgements for dead and burned Pinto passengers than to fix the car's gas tank design. Anybody here want to argue that that was an ethical choice? Not that I'm actually drawing an analogy between Tesla's possible hobbling of their autopilot and Ford's Pinto debacle yet. Let's see what happens. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals, and lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation. -- Johnny Hart = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] tesla now using cameras only
Sometimes I really wonder about Tesla. With the less than stellar reputation that autopilot already has, it seems odd that they would actually delete some of the system's "eyes." For the sake of EVs in general, I sure hope they know what they're doing. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Never been to Cleveland when the sun was shining. Even when it shines, it looks like rain. -- Melanie Safka, "Between the Road Signs" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] NEV is a stoopid idea. Moped is better
On 24 May 2021 at 11:26, Larry Gales via EV wrote: > The smaller you make a gas vehicle, the uglier, noisier, dirtier, they > become . In addition, they are proportionally less efficient. So small gas > vehicles are generally a bad idea: they are responsible for much of the > horrific pollution you see in much of asia. This is true in practice, but I don't think it's inherent to their size. They COULD be clean and quiet, even with ICEVs. However, that's usually not required by law, so the manufacturers don't bother. >From what I've read, the engines usually fitted are of crude design, with little or no emission control. I'd guess air cooled with poppet or pushrod valves, simple carburetors, and mechanical ignition systems. I know that a fair number of Tuktuks are powered by two-stroke engines. Some, I think, are Diesel. They're gross polluters, and noisy to boot. The reason that EV is better for these uses is the same reason that it's better for all road transportation. The only difference is that normal passenger ICEVs have evolved significantly and have mandated emission controls, so the improvement for them isn't quite as dramatic. > Right now, the only type of micro electric vehicle that is surging in > a major way, is the electric bike. But I believe that NEVs should also > become a major part of the mix. E-bikes were the first EV sucess story of our time, from about the 1990s. IMO the key to that success is that they're cheap. That's because they sell in large volumes in Asia, particularly China. Economy of scale, competition, and cheap sweatshop labor have driven the price down to where you can get an fairly decent E-bike for well under $1k. E-bikes are so cheap that for many middle income folks they can almost be an impulse purchase. It's a hobby or fun weekend vehicle at almost a toy price. If you're the right kind of person, it can even be a commuter. But the most important factor is that E-bike cost is in line with their utility. Yeah, that $700 E-bike does a lot less than a car, but it costs about 1/30 as much as an "entry level" car. An NEV also does less than a car, but more than an E-bike. For one thing, it keeps you dry! (Or should.) You should be able to sell one if you price it in line with its level of utility. And that's a problem. I can tell you that in the early 2000s, NEVs priced at (IIRC) $7-10k didn't sell in significant numbers. Part of that may be because they looked like (and were) glorified golf cars. But I think that a big reason is that they were just too close to the price of low-end ICEVs, while being far less practical and comfortable. Still true today. Right now in France you can get a basic 2-seat 5hp Renault Twizy EV (doors optional!) that will go 28mph. It costs just over 10k euros. Or you can buy a 4-seat Twingo ICEV for 13.5k euros, close the (standard) doors, and take it up to 100mph, if you're brave enough. You know who in France buys a Twizy instead of a Twingo? People who've lost their driving licenses from drunk driving, because in France you can drive a 28mph car without a driving license. (Really.) It's not just perception of value. An NEV *is* low valiue compared to the cheapest ICEV. It only carries 2 people and minimal cargo. You can't take it on most roads. To get across town without the innerbelt, you have to pull out the map and plot a course that here in the Midwest often goes through rough neighborhoods - at 25 mph. So if an NEV is going to have anything close to the success that E-bikes have had, it has to be cheap, in line with its value as transportation. How cheap? I don't know. You'd have to study the market, survey vehicle buyers. But a wild, irresponsible guess might be around $5k, maybe $7k. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I think [Rio de Janeiro mayor Marcelo] Crivella will be remembered as a mayor to be forgotten. -- Alvaro Costa e Silva = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
