Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[(-Phil-) via EV]

To be clear:  Tesla's with "one pedal" mode (called "hold") uses regen
until low speeds where it's not enough, then uses the iBooster to apply
hydraulic brakes.   It fades in the hydraulic almost perfectly, and holds
the brakes firmly on even with no feet touching pedals until you press the
accelerator again.

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 6:58 PM Rush via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of Haudy Kazemi via EV
> > Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is
> configured
> to
> > apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good idea for a
> smooth
> > driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal disappearing.
>
> When I drive my Model 3, I rarely use the brake pedal, sometimes not even
> once a
> trip and I do 3-5 trips a day about 5 miles each. For my last trip today,
> which
> was 7.8 miles, I used 4% of my battery, Range used was 6.1 miles - meaning
> I
> regened 1.7 miles and my efficiency was 128%. And here's one from earlier
> today
> where I stepped on the go pedal, distance 0.7 miles, battery used 1%,
> Range used
> 1.2miles (so I really stepped on it!), and efficiency was 55%. Even when I
> step
> on it, it is very easy to slow back down to a legal limit by just letting
> up on
> the go pedal.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rush Dougherty
> TucsonEV
> 1014 E King St
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 520 240 7493
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Good point.    The "Gizmo"  EV steering was 2 levers on the floor,  I guess 
like some trikes.

I remember the quote from the Tanenbaum  book"The great thing about 
standards is there are just so many to choose from."..

On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 05:59:43 PM PST, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Anyone who has driven a Ford model T can certainly attest to the challenges of 
having all the controls in the "wrong" locations. (OK, the steering wheel is 
the same as modern cars; but nothing else).

The early EVs also had considerably different controls. How about tiller 
steering? :-)

The tiller also had a hand grip that you rotated forward to accelerate, and 
backward for braking. Backward would give you *plenty* of electric braking 
force!

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 13 Jan 2024 at 17:19, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

> Let's not assume Tesla's sales success is because it has an unequivocally
> better EV product today.
> 
> What it does have is:
> 
> -a reliable, easy to use, rapidly growing, DCFC network

True in the US, but not in Europe.  For years, Tesla seems to have put much 
higher priority on the US than on Europe.  Last I heard, they had only 800 
supercharger stations for the entire continent.  

>From the US, it looks like Tesla has won the charging-standard wars.  From 
Europe and China, where the real future of EV growth lies, the picture looks 
a little different.

China is sticking with GB/T, now able to handle up to 1.2 mw of power.

In Europe, CCS Type 2 / Mennekes rules.  Even Teslas charge with them.  I 
don't see that changing, especially now that EU law requires full 
interoperability, and is stirring the pot for higher DC charging power and 
closer-spaced motorway stations (every 60km).

> The competition is hungry, and I feel Tesla is, in important ways,
> coasting. 

Well, if Tesla is coasting, one reason might be that Elon Musk IS Tesla, and 
he's not paying attention.  And THAT might be because he's too busy ranting 
about "woke mind virus" and driving away potential Tesla buyers with his 
favorite shiny new toy, Twitte .. oops, "X." 

Meanwhile, the competition is hungry because they have to be. In 2035 sales 
of new passenger ICEVs will be banned or strictly limited in Europe.  If 
automakers don't build EVs for Europe, they won't sell cars in Europe.  

Automakers paying more attention than Tesla have also seen the increasing EV 
saturation in the luxury segments.  (In Europe, the 3/Y is considered a 
large luxury car.)

They've realized that their ad campaigns for expensive SUVs, both ICEV and 
EV, still haven't blown small, low cost cars out of the EU market. (In 
France, the 2 top-selling cars in 2023 were superminis.)

And they smell cheap Chinese EVs quietly creeping up behind them.

In Europe, automakers are acting accordingly.  

Stellantis already has a ~23,000 euro (~$25,000)  EV.  

Soon both they and Renault will have 20,000 euro ($22,000) EVs. 

VW is aiming for the same price point. 

I expect that there will be more.

Those prices are BEFORE subtracting subsidies.  For example, France's eco 
bonus will put the Citroen E-C3 at 17,200 euro ($18,900).

Meanwhile, Elon Musk continues to mumble about Tesla maybe someday offering 
a $25,000 EV.  But with Tesla putting its effort into trying to manufacture 
their $61,000 oversize stainless steel doorstop effectively, "someday" isn't 
looking all that close just now. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 The internet, in its current shape, has brought out the worst parts 
 of humanity and is hiding the best parts. It's possible [that] the 
 internet has made us lose our minds. 

 -- Sarah Jeong

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024, 20:56 Rush via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of Haudy Kazemi via EV
> > Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is
> configured
> to
> > apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good idea for a
> smooth
> > driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal disappearing.
>
> When I drive my Model 3, I rarely use the brake pedal, sometimes not even
> once a
> trip and I do 3-5 trips a day about 5 miles each. For my last trip today,
> which
> was 7.8 miles, I used 4% of my battery, Range used was 6.1 miles - meaning
> I
> regened 1.7 miles and my efficiency was 128%. And here's one from earlier
> today
> where I stepped on the go pedal, distance 0.7 miles, battery used 1%,
> Range used
> 1.2miles (so I really stepped on it!), and efficiency was 55%. Even when I
> step
> on it, it is very easy to slow back down to a legal limit by just letting
> up on
> the go pedal.
>


To be clear, I agree that single pedal with hold can cover most cases. BUT,
single pedal regen doesn't use the maximum possible braking power (which
would be full regen + full friction braking).

My earlier comments are specific to the maximum braking power scenario
(which should just be used for emergency braking, and that should not be
how a person is driving on a regular basis). A smooth driver should hardly
need the brakes, even in a Prius or early Leaf, both of which have very
limited Regen capabilities.

For the maximum power scenario, a separate braking pedal is still needed.

>
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Rush via EV]

> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Haudy Kazemi via EV
> Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is configured
to
> apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good idea for a smooth
> driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal disappearing.

When I drive my Model 3, I rarely use the brake pedal, sometimes not even once a
trip and I do 3-5 trips a day about 5 miles each. For my last trip today, which
was 7.8 miles, I used 4% of my battery, Range used was 6.1 miles - meaning I
regened 1.7 miles and my efficiency was 128%. And here's one from earlier today
where I stepped on the go pedal, distance 0.7 miles, battery used 1%, Range used
1.2miles (so I really stepped on it!), and efficiency was 55%. Even when I step
on it, it is very easy to slow back down to a legal limit by just letting up on
the go pedal.

Best regards,

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV
1014 E King St
Tucson AZ 85719
520 240 7493
www.TucsonEV.com



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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Lee Hart via EV]

Anyone who has driven a Ford model T can certainly attest to the challenges of 
having all the controls in the "wrong" locations. (OK, the steering wheel is 
the same as modern cars; but nothing else).

The early EVs also had considerably different controls. How about tiller 
steering? :-)

The tiller also had a hand grip that you rotated forward to accelerate, and 
backward for braking. Backward would give you *plenty* of electric braking 
force!

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

You're right, Larry, I should be charging big money for these flashes 
of brilliance!


Lawrence Winiarski wrote:


Stopgiving...them...ideas

On Saturday, January 13, 2024, 9:39:14 AM PST, Mr. Sharkey via EV 
 wrote:


Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature.
Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be "unique"?


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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Stopgiving...them...ideas
On Saturday, January 13, 2024, 9:39:14 AM PST, Mr. Sharkey via EV 
 wrote:  
Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature. 
Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be "unique"?

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024, 17:27 John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:

> On 1/13/2024 3:19 PM, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
> > Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is
> > configured to apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good
> > idea for a smooth driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal
> > disappearing.
>
> Single pedal can give max braking - when used with the (always included)
> driver assist package that really, reallydoesn't want you to collide
> with the car in front of you.
>


Well, okay, I'll concede in that scenario. But that scenario requires radar
and/or camera sensors and software to be operational, which is definitely
not 100% of the time (nor 5-9s).

And it cannot be the only way to apply max braking force.
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 1/13/2024 3:19 PM, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is
configured to apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good
idea for a smooth driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal
disappearing.


Single pedal can give max braking - when used with the (always included) 
driver assist package that really, reallydoesn't want you to collide 
with the car in front of you.

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024, 16:03 Willie via EV  wrote:

>
> On 1/13/24 11:38, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
> > > all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic
> > > obsolete cars and satisfies those with such fetishes.
> >
> > Exactly how is having commonly used controls that are needed for the
> > safe operation of a vehicle right out in plain sight and easily
> > adjusted without requiring the driver to take eyes off the road a
> > "fetish"? C'mon, Willie look at what you just wrote!
> >
> > Seems more like Tesla is masturbating with technology in order to
> > appear more modern than anything. Sure, put the setup and deep
> > adjustments behind a screen, but if I want to control the heater,
> > radio (I know, obsolete...) or wipers, let me just reach for the
> > hardware control and continue to concentrate on driving (I know, also
> > obsolete once FSD is a "reality").
> >
> > Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature.
> > Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be
> > "unique"?
>
> Thanks, you've made your bias clear.  BUT, there are FAR more EV drivers
> that appreciate the value of Teslas, as they show by buying them, than
> all other, non-Tesla, EVs combined.



Let's not assume Tesla's sales success is because it has an unequivocally
better EV product today.

What it does have is:

-a reliable, easy to use, rapidly growing, DCFC network
-vehicles that can effectively use that DCFC network (regularly at 100 kW+
sustained charging power, with peaks above 250 kW)
-vehicle price points, that for a 300 mile range vehicle, currently
undercuts the competition
-the most and longest experience with making reliable lithium battery
packs, having been through several product generations so far
-bulk EV production capacity, and the supply chain to support it, leading
to actual product being available for sale
-a generally excellent maps and navigation system, with integrated, near
real-time, charging information (I recently compared it to Android Auto on
a 2023 Toyota vehicle, and felt Tesla software was mostly better. Main
thing that the Toyota had that was better in terms of software was
including a regional weather map screen. Tesla should have a radar overlay
later on the maps.)

IMO, those advantages, together, have so far sufficiently outweighed the
product weaknesses (which include certain UI decisions and feature/hardware
cuts and missing capabilities) to allow Tesla to hold an EV sales lead.

But, the advantages shouldn't be interpreted as Tesla having an unshakable
position.

The competition is hungry, and I feel Tesla is, in important ways,
coasting. Some of its recent tech additions (heat pumps) are half
innovation (octovalve) and half catch-up (the heat pump itself). Nissan had
heat pumps in 2013. V2L is another catch up item...seen on several
competitor products for years, and even on some Toyota hybrids.

IMO, for Tesla to reliably maintain its lead, it will increasingly need to
offer an equal or better product (including availability) and product
experience, and equal or better supporting infrastructure, and equal or
better service.

Anything less leaves room for hungry competitors to peel away customers. Or
for current customers to feel spurned, and to consider jumping to a
competitor, when they are ready to purchase again.


  You seem to argue that development
> of automobiles is near complete with no need to consider other ways of
> doing things.  Tesla (and some other EVs) has made the brake pedal near
> obsolete.  Indeed, we seem to be on the cusp of making human drivers
> obsolete.
>

Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is
configured to apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good
idea for a smooth driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal
disappearing.
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Willie via EV]

On 1/13/24 11:38, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

> all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic
> obsolete cars and satisfies those with such fetishes.

Exactly how is having commonly used controls that are needed for the 
safe operation of a vehicle right out in plain sight and easily 
adjusted without requiring the driver to take eyes off the road a 
"fetish"? C'mon, Willie look at what you just wrote!


Seems more like Tesla is masturbating with technology in order to 
appear more modern than anything. Sure, put the setup and deep 
adjustments behind a screen, but if I want to control the heater, 
radio (I know, obsolete...) or wipers, let me just reach for the 
hardware control and continue to concentrate on driving (I know, also 
obsolete once FSD is a "reality").


Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature. 
Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be 
"unique"?


Thanks, you've made your bias clear.  BUT, there are FAR more EV drivers 
that appreciate the value of Teslas, as they show by buying them, than 
all other, non-Tesla, EVs combined.  You seem to argue that development 
of automobiles is near complete with no need to consider other ways of 
doing things.  Tesla (and some other EVs) has made the brake pedal near 
obsolete.  Indeed, we seem to be on the cusp of making human drivers 
obsolete.


BTW, a few years ago, I gave you a batch of mostly "miniBMS" balancing 
modules.  I have recently seen another batch.  Do you want them?  
Condition unknown but likely mostly bad.




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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[John Blair via EV]

> On Jan 13, 2024, at 9:38 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV  wrote:
> 
>  Sure, put the setup and deep adjustments behind a screen, but if I want to 
> control the heater, radio (I know, obsolete...) or wipers, let me just reach 
> for the hardware control and continue to concentrate on driving (I know, also 
> obsolete once FSD is a "reality”).

Actually, all I have to do on my Tesla Y is use my thumb to push the right hand 
knob on the steering wheel and tell the car what I want to do with the climate 
control (“increase fan speed by 2” or “increase temperature by 3 degrees”).  So 
I don’t have to reach for anything or take my eyes off of the road to adjust 
the climate control. That’s one advantage of having the “screen-based” 
controls.  

I know that the controls are different than the hardware-based ones. I’ve been 
driving for over 50 years and it only took me a few minutes to understand and 
work the new controls.  Now they seem much easier to use. That said, Teslas may 
not be ideal as rental vehicles for those folks who don’t own one.

John
John Blair
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

> all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic
> obsolete cars and satisfies those with such fetishes.

Exactly how is having commonly used controls that are needed for the 
safe operation of a vehicle right out in plain sight and easily 
adjusted without requiring the driver to take eyes off the road a 
"fetish"? C'mon, Willie look at what you just wrote!


Seems more like Tesla is masturbating with technology in order to 
appear more modern than anything. Sure, put the setup and deep 
adjustments behind a screen, but if I want to control the heater, 
radio (I know, obsolete...) or wipers, let me just reach for the 
hardware control and continue to concentrate on driving (I know, also 
obsolete once FSD is a "reality").


Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature. 
Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be "unique"?


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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Rush via EV]

> On 1/12/2024 8:25 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> > That's been working surprisingly well for him, but that was before the
> > unfolding "Cybertruck" disaster. That hideous, awkward, grossly
> > inefficient lump belongs in a dystopian SF film, not on the road.  If
> > he stubbornly carries on with it, it will be Tesla's undoing.

Then John responded -
> Yeah, sure.  The vehicle with over 2 million pre-orders.
> The vehicle that has better specs, and a similar price to comparable EV 
> trucks.
> The vehicle that Tesla will make a profit on - while all other EV trucks are 
> being
> sold at a loss.
> Right.  Sure that will hurt Tesla.

Well said John. Look what happened with the Tesla Plug/Inlet. When Tesla first 
proposed the NACS everybody said, oh no, CCS is here to stay. The EV 
manufactures 
took a look at the total charging system that Tesla had designed and 
implemented 
and then decided that NACS was for them So far Ford, General Motors, 
Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Volvo, Polestar, Rivian, Fisker, Honda, Jaguar, Hyundai, 
BMW, Toyota and two EVSE companies Electrify America and ChargePoint have said 
that they are going to use the NACS.

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com




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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Meh...It's too small of a sample and far too early to say whether "The Market" 
has decided.   The good news is EV's in general are doing prettywell and 
obviously we have a pretty diverse range of strong opinions on user interfaces. 
  I think it's perfectly fair to disagree on what is obviously
personal preference.   

That said...all glass controls are the work of the devil


On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 05:37:34 AM PST, Willie via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 
On 1/12/24 22:25, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> Tesla moved controls to a touchscreen not because anyone asked for them
> there, but because Elon Musk himself, stuck in his adolescent science
> fiction world, wanted them there.
You might explain your reasoning behind that rather illogical comment.
>  
>
> Musk doesn't build cars for customers, he builds them for himself. If you
> happen to like what he likes, great.  Otherwise, tough.
Again, I can not see any reasoning on your part.  The market is clearly 
deciding whether cost effective and minimalist controls will prevail.  
Or not.  Someone can remind me what fraction of the market Tesla 
commands.  There are plenty of inferior EVs out there that are offering 
all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic obsolete cars and 
satisfies those with such fetishes.
>
> That's been working surprisingly well for him, but that was before the
> unfolding "Cybertruck" disaster. That hideous, awkward, grossly inefficient
> lump belongs in a dystopian SF film, not on the road.  If he stubbornly
> carries on with it, it will be Tesla's undoing.
I see John did a fine job of refuting the above.
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Willie via EV]

On 1/12/24 22:25, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

Tesla moved controls to a touchscreen not because anyone asked for them
there, but because Elon Musk himself, stuck in his adolescent science
fiction world, wanted them there.

You might explain your reasoning behind that rather illogical comment.
  


Musk doesn't build cars for customers, he builds them for himself. If you
happen to like what he likes, great.  Otherwise, tough.
Again, I can not see any reasoning on your part.  The market is clearly 
deciding whether cost effective and minimalist controls will prevail.  
Or not.  Someone can remind me what fraction of the market Tesla 
commands.  There are plenty of inferior EVs out there that are offering 
all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic obsolete cars and 
satisfies those with such fetishes.


That's been working surprisingly well for him, but that was before the
unfolding "Cybertruck" disaster. That hideous, awkward, grossly inefficient
lump belongs in a dystopian SF film, not on the road.  If he stubbornly
carries on with it, it will be Tesla's undoing.

I see John did a fine job of refuting the above.
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 1/12/2024 8:25 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

That's been working surprisingly well for him, but that was before the
unfolding "Cybertruck" disaster. That hideous, awkward, grossly inefficient
lump belongs in a dystopian SF film, not on the road.  If he stubbornly
carries on with it, it will be Tesla's undoing.

Yeah, sure.  The vehicle with over 2 million pre-orders.
The vehicle that has better specs, and a similar price to comparable EV 
trucks.
The vehicle that Tesla will make a profit on - while all other EV trucks 
are being sold at a loss.

Right.  Sure that will hurt Tesla.
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 12 Jan 2024 at 10:29, Rush via EV wrote:

> I've heard lots of whining about how difficult change is but this thread
> takes the cake

VW is returning to real physical controls - at least simulated ones - 
because all over the world their customers have told VW that they despise 
touchscreens.  

But that's a matter of taste.  

Having controls where the driver expects them is a matter of *safety*.  

No one should have to watch a video introduction or take a class before 
driving a rental car, or even a new car he's just bought.

Tesla moved controls to a touchscreen not because anyone asked for them 
there, but because Elon Musk himself, stuck in his adolescent science 
fiction world, wanted them there.  

Musk doesn't build cars for customers, he builds them for himself. If you 
happen to like what he likes, great.  Otherwise, tough.  

That's been working surprisingly well for him, but that was before the 
unfolding "Cybertruck" disaster. That hideous, awkward, grossly inefficient 
lump belongs in a dystopian SF film, not on the road.  If he stubbornly 
carries on with it, it will be Tesla's undoing.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Twenty years ago, if you were eating dinner under the unblinking eye 
 of a video-camera, it was because you were in a supermax prison. Now, 
 thanks to "luxury surveillance," you can get the same experience in 
 your middle-class home with your Google, Apple or Amazon "smart" 
 camera.

 -- Cory Doctorow

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Bill Woodcock via EV]

I just picked up a Polestar 2 rental at the Hertz Washington central station 
location, and FWIW it looked like upwards of 80% of their stock there was 
electric.  Lots and lots of Bolts, and lots of Kias and a few Teslas and 
Polestars.  Probably others I didn’t notice.

> On Jan 12, 2024, at 12:29, Rush via EV  wrote:
> 
> Wow! I've heard lots of whining about how difficult change is but this thread 
> takes the cake... but then again I have to admit that every story has 2 sides 
> to 
> it. So go ahead and complain about one the most influential and innovative 
> car 
> manufactures of the 21st Century, lotta good it's going to do ya. ??
> 
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV  On Behalf Of Ed Thorpe via EV
>> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 9:17 AM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>> Cc: etcad...@gmail.com; EV List Lackey 
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas 
>> cars 
>> |
>> Reuters
>> 
>> I rented a Herz Tesla M3 in Washington state last year. I'm an EV driver but 
>> have
>> never owned a Tesla and it took some time to learn how to turn on the fan, 
>> etc.
>> But some of that was my fault because before my rental date Herz provided a 
>> link
>> to a detailed FAQ doc on how to use the Tesla features than I missed 
>> reading. I
>> new renter read that they should have no difficulties driving a Tesla.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Ed Thorpe
>> 
>>> On Jan 12, 2024, at 7:34?AM, EV List Lackey via EV  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> ?On 12 Jan 2024 at 9:07, Mark E. Hanson via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The real reason is you *can't* drive it for two hours until after training.
>>> 
>>> That's interesting, and might be another reason that Hertz sees more
>>> accidents with Teslas than with other cars.  It's hard to drive
>>> defensively when you're trying to figure out how to turn the wipers on
>>> or signal a left turn.
>>> 
>>> It sounds like your experience buying your Tesla was very different
>>> from the one we had with our Renault Zoe.
>>> 
>>> The Zoe is actually pretty much just get in and drive.  Except for the
>>> radio, which is all run from the touchscreen and quite exasperating,
>>> it has mostly normal driving controls.  There are knobs and switches
>>> for HVAC, in the usual center location.  The headlights, turn signals,
>>> high beam, and wipers are all on steering column stalks, where you
>>> expect them to be. It has a
>>> reverse/neutral/forward/forward-extra-regen selector where the
>>> gearshift would be in a Clio.  There are buttons on the instrument panel 
>>> for 
>>> eco
>> mode, door locks, charging port release, and so on.
>>> 
>>> However, the dealer wasn't taking chances.  They had a person - not
>>> our salesman - whose specific job it was to introduce us to the car.
>>> It was nice that she spoke a fair amount of English.
>>> 
>>> She started with an unveiling in the showroom where she led us over to
>>> the car, covered with a velvety cloth, and dramatically swept the cloth 
>>> away.
>>> 
>>> Then she went over all the controls with us, noting things that were
>>> different from ICEVs, or new to that model year, such as the electric
>>> parking brake (not my heart's joy, but oh well).  She warned us about
>>> not lifting the car with a floor jack, to avoid damaging the battery.
>>> She also popped the hood, showed us where the washer fluid and brake
>>> fluid went, and told us not to poke the orange cables.  :-)
>>> 
>>> Then she sat in the back seat while we took the car out for the first
>>> drive, in case we had any problems or questions.
>>> 
>>> I don't know whether this coaching was Renault policy or that of the
>>> specific dealership, but along with the low-pressure sales process, it
>>> was easily the most civilized experience I've ever had buying a car,
>>> regardless of drive system.
>>> 
>>> I hope that your throw-him-to-the-wolves experience with buying a
>>> Tesla isn't the norm for them.
>>> 
>>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>> 
>>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>> 
>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>> 
>>>The mo

Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I think the industry, not just EVs, is going through growing pains. Now 
that pretty much all cars have a "glass cockpit", the constraints of 
buttons and dials is gone. So much more is possible. I think they are 
going overboard with software features and it will take some time to 
figure out the new look of what is intuitive and direct. Hopefully a de 
facto standard will evolve where you learn one car and you've learned 
them all.


So, aside from Musk himself, there's much to admire at Tesla. But 
there's always room for improvements ... and some complaints :)


In my case, we bought a mini cooper. I don't think I could even drive it 
without reading some of the manual. I couldn't figure out how to turn on 
lights or get the HVAC to defrost properly. And an open door resulted in 
an inbox message which I had to open and read "the rear hatch is ajar". 
Geez.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "Rush via EV" 
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" 
Cc: e...@tucsonev.com; "'EV List Lackey'" 
Sent: 12-Jan-24 09:29:16
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for 
gas cars | Reuters



Wow! I've heard lots of whining about how difficult change is but this thread
takes the cake... but then again I have to admit that every story has 2 sides to
it. So go ahead and complain about one the most influential and innovative car
manufactures of the 21st Century, lotta good it's going to do ya. ??

Rush
Tucson AZ


 -Original Message-
 From: EV  On Behalf Of Ed Thorpe via EV
 Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 9:17 AM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 Cc: etcad...@gmail.com; EV List Lackey 
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas 
cars
 |
 Reuters

 I rented a Herz Tesla M3 in Washington state last year. I'm an EV driver but
 have
 never owned a Tesla and it took some time to learn how to turn on the fan, etc.
 But some of that was my fault because before my rental date Herz provided a 
link
 to a detailed FAQ doc on how to use the Tesla features than I missed reading. I
 new renter read that they should have no difficulties driving a Tesla.

 Thanks,
 Ed Thorpe

 > On Jan 12, 2024, at 7:34?AM, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
 >
 > ?On 12 Jan 2024 at 9:07, Mark E. Hanson via EV wrote:
 >
 >> The real reason is you *can't* drive it for two hours until after training.
 >
 > That's interesting, and might be another reason that Hertz sees more
 > accidents with Teslas than with other cars.  It's hard to drive
 > defensively when you're trying to figure out how to turn the wipers on
 > or signal a left turn.
 >
 > It sounds like your experience buying your Tesla was very different
 > from the one we had with our Renault Zoe.
 >
 > The Zoe is actually pretty much just get in and drive.  Except for the
 > radio, which is all run from the touchscreen and quite exasperating,
 > it has mostly normal driving controls.  There are knobs and switches
 > for HVAC, in the usual center location.  The headlights, turn signals,
 > high beam, and wipers are all on steering column stalks, where you
 > expect them to be. It has a
 > reverse/neutral/forward/forward-extra-regen selector where the
 > gearshift would be in a Clio.  There are buttons on the instrument panel for
 > eco
 mode, door locks, charging port release, and so on.
 >
 > However, the dealer wasn't taking chances.  They had a person - not
 > our salesman - whose specific job it was to introduce us to the car.
 > It was nice that she spoke a fair amount of English.
 >
 > She started with an unveiling in the showroom where she led us over to
 > the car, covered with a velvety cloth, and dramatically swept the cloth away.
 >
 > Then she went over all the controls with us, noting things that were
 > different from ICEVs, or new to that model year, such as the electric
 > parking brake (not my heart's joy, but oh well).  She warned us about
 > not lifting the car with a floor jack, to avoid damaging the battery.
 > She also popped the hood, showed us where the washer fluid and brake
 > fluid went, and told us not to poke the orange cables.  :-)
 >
 > Then she sat in the back seat while we took the car out for the first
 > drive, in case we had any problems or questions.
 >
 > I don't know whether this coaching was Renault policy or that of the
 > specific dealership, but along with the low-pressure sales process, it
 > was easily the most civilized experience I've ever had buying a car,
 > regardless of drive system.
 >
 > I hope that your throw-him-to-the-wolves experience with buying a
 > Tesla isn't the norm for them.
 >
 > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
 >
 > To reach me, don't reply to this mes

Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Rush via EV]

Wow! I've heard lots of whining about how difficult change is but this thread 
takes the cake... but then again I have to admit that every story has 2 sides 
to 
it. So go ahead and complain about one the most influential and innovative car 
manufactures of the 21st Century, lotta good it's going to do ya. ??

Rush
Tucson AZ

> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Ed Thorpe via EV
> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 9:17 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: etcad...@gmail.com; EV List Lackey 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas 
> cars 
> |
> Reuters
>
> I rented a Herz Tesla M3 in Washington state last year. I'm an EV driver but 
> have
> never owned a Tesla and it took some time to learn how to turn on the fan, 
> etc.
> But some of that was my fault because before my rental date Herz provided a 
> link
> to a detailed FAQ doc on how to use the Tesla features than I missed reading. 
> I
> new renter read that they should have no difficulties driving a Tesla.
>
> Thanks,
> Ed Thorpe
>
> > On Jan 12, 2024, at 7:34?AM, EV List Lackey via EV  
> > wrote:
> >
> > ?On 12 Jan 2024 at 9:07, Mark E. Hanson via EV wrote:
> >
> >> The real reason is you *can't* drive it for two hours until after training.
> >
> > That's interesting, and might be another reason that Hertz sees more
> > accidents with Teslas than with other cars.  It's hard to drive
> > defensively when you're trying to figure out how to turn the wipers on
> > or signal a left turn.
> >
> > It sounds like your experience buying your Tesla was very different
> > from the one we had with our Renault Zoe.
> >
> > The Zoe is actually pretty much just get in and drive.  Except for the
> > radio, which is all run from the touchscreen and quite exasperating,
> > it has mostly normal driving controls.  There are knobs and switches
> > for HVAC, in the usual center location.  The headlights, turn signals,
> > high beam, and wipers are all on steering column stalks, where you
> > expect them to be. It has a
> > reverse/neutral/forward/forward-extra-regen selector where the
> > gearshift would be in a Clio.  There are buttons on the instrument panel 
> > for 
> > eco
> mode, door locks, charging port release, and so on.
> >
> > However, the dealer wasn't taking chances.  They had a person - not
> > our salesman - whose specific job it was to introduce us to the car.
> > It was nice that she spoke a fair amount of English.
> >
> > She started with an unveiling in the showroom where she led us over to
> > the car, covered with a velvety cloth, and dramatically swept the cloth 
> > away.
> >
> > Then she went over all the controls with us, noting things that were
> > different from ICEVs, or new to that model year, such as the electric
> > parking brake (not my heart's joy, but oh well).  She warned us about
> > not lifting the car with a floor jack, to avoid damaging the battery.
> > She also popped the hood, showed us where the washer fluid and brake
> > fluid went, and told us not to poke the orange cables.  :-)
> >
> > Then she sat in the back seat while we took the car out for the first
> > drive, in case we had any problems or questions.
> >
> > I don't know whether this coaching was Renault policy or that of the
> > specific dealership, but along with the low-pressure sales process, it
> > was easily the most civilized experience I've ever had buying a car,
> > regardless of drive system.
> >
> > I hope that your throw-him-to-the-wolves experience with buying a
> > Tesla isn't the norm for them.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > The most British thing I've ever heard: A lady who said "Well I'm
> > sorry
> >
> > but i don't apologise."
> >
> >-- Liz
> > Guterbock
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com



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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Ed Thorpe via EV]

I rented a Herz Tesla M3 in Washington state last year. I’m an EV driver but 
have never owned a Tesla and it took some time to learn how to turn on the fan, 
etc. But some of that was my fault because before my rental date Herz provided 
a link to a detailed FAQ doc on how to use the Tesla features than I missed 
reading. I new renter read that they should have no difficulties driving a 
Tesla. 

Thanks, 
Ed Thorpe

> On Jan 12, 2024, at 7:34 AM, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> 
> On 12 Jan 2024 at 9:07, Mark E. Hanson via EV wrote:
> 
>> The real reason is you *can't* drive it for two hours until after training.
> 
> That's interesting, and might be another reason that Hertz sees more
> accidents with Teslas than with other cars.  It's hard to drive defensively
> when you're trying to figure out how to turn the wipers on or signal a left
> turn.
> 
> It sounds like your experience buying your Tesla was very different from the
> one we had with our Renault Zoe.
> 
> The Zoe is actually pretty much just get in and drive.  Except for the
> radio, which is all run from the touchscreen and quite exasperating, it has
> mostly normal driving controls.  There are knobs and switches for HVAC, in
> the usual center location.  The headlights, turn signals, high beam, and
> wipers are all on steering column stalks, where you expect them to be. It
> has a reverse/neutral/forward/forward-extra-regen selector where the
> gearshift would be in a Clio.  There are buttons on the instrument panel for
> eco mode, door locks, charging port release, and so on.
> 
> However, the dealer wasn't taking chances.  They had a person - not our
> salesman - whose specific job it was to introduce us to the car.  It was
> nice that she spoke a fair amount of English.
> 
> She started with an unveiling in the showroom where she led us over to the
> car, covered with a velvety cloth, and dramatically swept the cloth away.
> 
> Then she went over all the controls with us, noting things that were
> different from ICEVs, or new to that model year, such as the electric
> parking brake (not my heart's joy, but oh well).  She warned us about not
> lifting the car with a floor jack, to avoid damaging the battery. She also
> popped the hood, showed us where the washer fluid and brake fluid went, and
> told us not to poke the orange cables.  :-)
> 
> Then she sat in the back seat while we took the car out for the first drive,
> in case we had any problems or questions.
> 
> I don't know whether this coaching was Renault policy or that of the
> specific dealership, but along with the low-pressure sales process, it was
> easily the most civilized experience I've ever had buying a car, regardless
> of drive system.
> 
> I hope that your throw-him-to-the-wolves experience with buying a Tesla
> isn't the norm for them.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> The most British thing I've ever heard: A lady who said "Well I'm sorry
> 
> but i don't apologise."
> 
>-- Liz Guterbock
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 12 Jan 2024 at 9:07, Mark E. Hanson via EV wrote:

> The real reason is you *can't* drive it for two hours until after training. 

That's interesting, and might be another reason that Hertz sees more 
accidents with Teslas than with other cars.  It's hard to drive defensively 
when you're trying to figure out how to turn the wipers on or signal a left 
turn.

It sounds like your experience buying your Tesla was very different from the 
one we had with our Renault Zoe.

The Zoe is actually pretty much just get in and drive.  Except for the 
radio, which is all run from the touchscreen and quite exasperating, it has 
mostly normal driving controls.  There are knobs and switches for HVAC, in 
the usual center location.  The headlights, turn signals, high beam, and 
wipers are all on steering column stalks, where you expect them to be. It 
has a reverse/neutral/forward/forward-extra-regen selector where the 
gearshift would be in a Clio.  There are buttons on the instrument panel for 
eco mode, door locks, charging port release, and so on.

However, the dealer wasn't taking chances.  They had a person - not our 
salesman - whose specific job it was to introduce us to the car.  It was 
nice that she spoke a fair amount of English.

She started with an unveiling in the showroom where she led us over to the 
car, covered with a velvety cloth, and dramatically swept the cloth away. 

Then she went over all the controls with us, noting things that were 
different from ICEVs, or new to that model year, such as the electric 
parking brake (not my heart's joy, but oh well).  She warned us about not 
lifting the car with a floor jack, to avoid damaging the battery. She also 
popped the hood, showed us where the washer fluid and brake fluid went, and 
told us not to poke the orange cables.  :-)

Then she sat in the back seat while we took the car out for the first drive, 
in case we had any problems or questions.

I don't know whether this coaching was Renault policy or that of the 
specific dealership, but along with the low-pressure sales process, it was 
easily the most civilized experience I've ever had buying a car, regardless 
of drive system. 

I hope that your throw-him-to-the-wolves experience with buying a Tesla 
isn't the norm for them.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 The most British thing I've ever heard: A lady who said "Well I'm sorry 

 but i don't apologise."

-- Liz Guterbock

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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[EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Mark E. Hanson via EV]

Hi Christine
The real reason is you *can’t* drive it for two hours until after training.  
Don’t know why the article didn’t mention that fundamental problem with 
Tesla’s.  I had to ask a guy walking down the sidewalk how to make it go 
forward (push the right side wiper looking stalk down), from Tysons Corner DC, 
didn’t touch anything else till I got home. Next day a guy in the club gave me 
a 2 hour crash course on how to operate all the screen controls.  I don’t know 
why Elon decided to stir all the controls around compared to a standard car, 
but you certainly wouldn’t want to use it as a rental!   I always ask the 
various car rental companies In CO about EVs and they always say they’re not 
available so I assume this must be California.  $20K for a model 3 assuming low 
(not hard) miles would be good but most guys I know treat rentals like race 
cars and jeeps. New price is supposedly at $37K. 
Love the car (Tesla-Y) though, best charging network for all our family trips!  
The Bolt takes about an hour to charge and Electrify America CCS charging in 
"red" states is iffy with poor maintenance.  The Leaf is strickly for local 
trips.

Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 12, 2024, at 12:36 AM, CHRISTINE HANSON  wrote:

Interesting article. I guess people can get a good price on a Tesla from Hertz.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/hertz-sell-about-2-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/
 


Have a renewable energy day,

Mark

Mark E. Hanson
184 Vista Lane
Fincastle, VA 24090
540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
UL Certified PV Installer
My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh 
REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 
Fincastle Solar Weather Station




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