Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[paul dove via EV]

https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/cobalt/mcs-2017-cobal.pdf


Doesn’t sound like there is a problem to me. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2018, at 5:00 PM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> You don't have to look very far to get a grip on the supply difficulties
> that are here already. Tesla hasn't come close to their minuscule 500,000
> vehicles a year goal and the existing market for battery materials is close
> to tapped out.
> 
> Build up of mining capabilities will inevitably happen, but it will not be
> fast and there are orders of magnitude more needed just to handle cells for
> vehicles.
> 
> And we are saying that batteries for grid storage is "there?" Not a chance.
> 
> https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/
> *breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/*
> 
> 
> Cobalt is sourced only from the Congo. This supply chain is very tenuous.
> Cost in this article is said to be $27,000/tonne.
> 
> The article did not tally the mass of cobalt in a Li ion cell.  Musk is
> most worried about Co supplies.
> 
> 
> https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/01/*no-cobalt-no-tesla/*
> 
> 
> http://www.co27.com/cobalt/about/
> 
> 
> " The Tesla Model S uses a 95 kWh
> battery pack which contains *14.9 kg of cobalt per vehicle.*"
> 
> "The global *cobalt market was in a supply deficit in 2016* for the first
> time since 2009"
> 
> http://benchmarkminerals.com/
> *elon-musk-our-lithium-ion-batteries-should-be-called-nickel-graphite/*
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/29/electric-cars-battery-manufacturing-cobalt-mining
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 5:19 PM, Michael Ross 
> wrote:
> 
>> You did not run any numbers.  The mining implications are paramount.
>> 
>> Recycled EV batteries won't make a dent.
>> 
>> 
> -- 
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[Lee Hart via EV]

Michael Ross said (in part):

The grid is a super storage medium. If we were more interconnected

worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all. You just
need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.


jim--- via EV wrote:

Unfortunately not practical.  Transmission line losses if nothing else would 
rule it out.  There are other issues as well.


It's hard to say. There are already some mighty long transmission lines, 
and their percentage losses are quite small.


--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[Larry Gales via EV]

Actually, a 1200 mile HVDC line looses only about 5% of the energy
transmitted, so it is very efficient.  Now, these lines are expensive,
about $2 million/per mile, or $1.4 billion for a 1200 mile line, and the
longest one I know about is about 1500 miles in South America, so they
can't really transmit electricity around the globe, but they can efficiency
transmit to a large part of a major continent, so they can greatly reduce
the amount of storage needed.

Now batteries (either in EVs or after they have been removed from EVs for
storage), can provide huge amounts of storage for a number of hours or a
few days, but you need something else, e.g., stored H2 to store energy for
weeks or months.

)

-Larry

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 1:15 PM, jim--- via EV  wrote:

>
> Michael Ross said (in part):
> > The grid is a super storage medium. If we were more interconnected
> worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all. You just
> need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
> take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
> out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
>
>
> Unfortunately not practical.  Transmission line losses if nothing else
> would rule it out.  There are other issues as well.
>
>
> Jim
>
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> group/NEDRA)
>
>


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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[Michael Ross via EV]

You don't have to look very far to get a grip on the supply difficulties
that are here already. Tesla hasn't come close to their minuscule 500,000
vehicles a year goal and the existing market for battery materials is close
to tapped out.

Build up of mining capabilities will inevitably happen, but it will not be
fast and there are orders of magnitude more needed just to handle cells for
vehicles.

And we are saying that batteries for grid storage is "there?" Not a chance.

https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/
*breakdown-raw-materials-tesla-batteries-possible-bottleneck/*


Cobalt is sourced only from the Congo. This supply chain is very tenuous.
Cost in this article is said to be $27,000/tonne.

The article did not tally the mass of cobalt in a Li ion cell.  Musk is
most worried about Co supplies.


https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/01/*no-cobalt-no-tesla/*


http://www.co27.com/cobalt/about/


" The Tesla Model S uses a 95 kWh
battery pack which contains *14.9 kg of cobalt per vehicle.*"

"The global *cobalt market was in a supply deficit in 2016* for the first
time since 2009"

http://benchmarkminerals.com/
*elon-musk-our-lithium-ion-batteries-should-be-called-nickel-graphite/*


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/29/electric-cars-battery-manufacturing-cobalt-mining




On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 5:19 PM, Michael Ross 
wrote:

> You did not run any numbers.  The mining implications are paramount.
>
> Recycled EV batteries won't make a dent.
>
>
-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
Google Phone and Text
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[Michael Ross via EV]

You did not run any numbers.  The mining implications are paramount.

Recycled EV batteries won't make a dent.


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:46 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:

> Use recycled EV batteries for grid storage
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 4, 2018, at 11:35 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > I disagree on the batteries are "there."  I doubt we can store the
> "energy
> > of man" in batteries.  And currently we are no where near close to that.
> > It is too much, and we won't be able to use batteries for that kind of
> > massive storage.
> >
> > I think Musk estimated 250 Gigfactories just to do all EVs, let alone
> other
> > industrial and residential uses.
> >
> > The grid is a super storage medium.  If we were more interconnected
> > worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all.  You just
> > need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries
> can
> > take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the
> heck
> > out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the
> famous
> >> ​ ... SNIP​
> >>
> >> ​
> >>
> > ...
> >>
> >> ​"​
> >> The batteries in EV's are there.
> >> ​"​
> >>
> >> ​ ...
> >>
> >>
> >> Bob, WB4APR
> >>
> >> --
> > Michael E. Ross
> > (919) 585-6737 Land
> > (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> > (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
> > Google Phone and Text
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> > Virus-free.
> > www.avg.com
> >  utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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> group/NEDRA)
> >
>
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>
>


-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[paul dove via EV]

Use recycled EV batteries for grid storage 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2018, at 11:35 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> I disagree on the batteries are "there."  I doubt we can store the "energy
> of man" in batteries.  And currently we are no where near close to that.
> It is too much, and we won't be able to use batteries for that kind of
> massive storage.
> 
> I think Musk estimated 250 Gigfactories just to do all EVs, let alone other
> industrial and residential uses.
> 
> The grid is a super storage medium.  If we were more interconnected
> worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all.  You just
> need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
> take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
> out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
>> ​ ... SNIP​
>> 
>> ​
>> 
> ...
>> 
>> ​"​
>> The batteries in EV's are there.
>> ​"​
>> 
>> ​ ...
>> 
>> 
>> Bob, WB4APR
>> 
>> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> 
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[paul dove via EV]

It gets dark this time of year before 5 pm and they delivered packages to my 
house up to 9 PM during the holidays.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 4, 2018, at 10:11 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> You are implying that shipping docks will be manned all night long in this
> scenario. Or that residential or postal workers will want to try to deliver
> in the dark. There are very real downsides to tripping around in the night,
> and 3rd shift work is bad for health.
> 
> When I was delivering furniture in the 80's I often chose to do the travel
> (as opposed to delivery) at night to avoid the danger and boredom of
> gridlock. But I would definitely not have enjoyed invading customers
> driveways and landscape at night.  I think residential night delivery is
> not a good idea.
> 
> Night delivery isn't a totally bad idea, but it might be hard to work out
> the logistics.
> 
> Over the road is already a nighttime operation for many.
> 
> 
> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> 
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> 
> On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:50 AM, John Lussmyer via EV 
> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>>> Mail at night!
>>> I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
>>> haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
>>> to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
>>> those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
>>> a great balance to the grid.
>> 
>> Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
>> You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during the
>> day when demand is hi.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/
>> projects/sensibleemail/
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>> group/NEDRA)
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[jim--- via EV]

Michael Ross said (in part):
> The grid is a super storage medium. If we were more interconnected
worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all. You just
need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.
 
 
Unfortunately not practical.  Transmission line losses if nothing else would 
rule it out.  There are other issues as well.
 
 
Jim
 
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[Michael Ross via EV]

I disagree on the batteries are "there."  I doubt we can store the "energy
of man" in batteries.  And currently we are no where near close to that.
It is too much, and we won't be able to use batteries for that kind of
massive storage.

I think Musk estimated 250 Gigfactories just to do all EVs, let alone other
industrial and residential uses.

The grid is a super storage medium.  If we were more interconnected
worldwide, then a series of large solar arrays could do it all.  You just
need enough of them facing the sun at any given time and then batteries can
take their better place as mobile storage. This arrangement beats the heck
out of digging all the copper and cobalt needed for stationary storage.



On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
> ​ ... SNIP​
>
> ​
>
...
>
> ​"​
> The batteries in EV's are there.
> ​"​
>
> ​ ...
>
>
> Bob, WB4APR
>
> --
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
Google Phone and Text





Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Actually,
you'd want to store (renewable) energy when there is a surplus.
The market for grid storage is fast growing and I hear little about the
old tech of
rotating (flywheel) storage and adding pumped storage is not easy to
grow either
due to real estate, the only area that I hear massive investments in is
in battery.

Surprisingly, one of the ways to add storage and stabilize the grid is
by installing
a specific version of Fast Charger. While the Fast Charger is often
villified for its
potential to upset the grid due to high and unexpected loads, it can
also be installed
with battery storage that allows low installation cost due to requiring
only a moderately
amount of connected power with the battery averaging the load out over a
longer period
but at the same time allowing the battery to be used in demand load
control and possibly
even in power generation, depending how the electronics is set up.

This allows a Fast Charge station to be installed in a residence of a
(wealthy) individual
without need to change the service connection, a simple 240V 50A
connection can charge
a battery bank overnight if needed, or whenever it is cheaper or more
desirable to pull
electricity off the grid, in addition a (large) PV system can feed into
the bank, to give it
power when a grid failure occurs.
Charging from the bank can happen at any speed that the batteries and
the electronics
can sustain, 50 or even 100kW power is no problem, even while the grid
connection
peaks at 12kW.

BTW, this system already exists, EMW has developed it and when this gets
rolled out,
it is a great addition to the ever increasing grid storage.
Note: there is no reason the house could not be powered from this as
well, so essentially
it becomes a "PowerWall".
The vision that I have is that an affordable version of this system can
be offered with *used* 
EV batteries as the requirements for weight and size are much less in
stationary installations 
and this gives a good second hand market for used batteries from EV.

Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of John Lussmyer
via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 7:50 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid.
Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Mail at night!
>I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all 
>long haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the 
>benefit to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic 
>congestion).  All those battries storing energy all day long and then 
>being used at night as a great balance to the grid.

Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during
the day when demand is hi.


--

Try my Sensible Email package!
https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[jim--- via EV]

Bob Bruninga said (in part):
> Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
Duck's back curve that is developing in California.  Yes, today (in
winter), the curve still has the demand higher during the day than at
night.  But that same curve during the spring and fall does go negative in
the middle of the day and that is the infamous "Duck's Back Curve" that
will only get worse:
[ https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is- ]( 
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is- )
real-and-bigger-than-expected#gs.4kJv=1w
 
 
March yes, but not in the summer - and only very late fall (we get our hottest 
heat spells in September and October).  Not for a very long time anyway.  
Conveniently peak solar is at least sort of when peak air conditioning load is, 
but we're a long ways from carrying the AC load with solar.
BTW, pull up satellite view on google Earth some time and take a look at how 
much solar there is here in California - it's a LOT.  Particularly in the 
commercial sector.  Look at almost any large retail store or mall, and solar 
abounds.  Not everywhere of course, but a lot and it's growing daily.
 
 
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[ j...@k6ccc.org ]( mailto:j...@k6ccc.org )
 
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Thanks for the LIVE California load page. That page today shows the famous
Duck's back curve that is developing in California.  Yes, today (in
winter), the curve still has the demand higher during the day than at
night.  But that same curve during the spring and fall does go negative in
the middle of the day and that is the infamous "Duck's Back Curve" that
will only get worse:
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-california-duck-curve-is-
real-and-bigger-than-expected#gs.4kJv=1w

For the typical march in 2016 in California, daytime load is 20% less than
the overnight load due to solar.  And it is only going to go down farther
as more people realize how solar is now cheaper than the utility in most
states... and it makes no sense not to invest in solar.  Meanwhile
electric costs at night will go up.

When electricity gets so cheap in the day, then we will see life style
changes simply as an economic result.  Such as charging EV's during the
day ... and there are two ways to do that.  1) Charging at work for
commuters, and 2) charging during the day and moving some driving to
night.  The batteries in EV's are there.  Economic advantages will take
advantage of them...

Bob, WB4APR


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of jim--- via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 11:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: j...@k6ccc.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid.
Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...


Bob Bruninga said (in part):
> With solar, day will become the new night, with the cheapest energy
available during the day. Already is in California.


Where are you getting that?  That is certainly not true.  Demand is still
highest during the day (or with the current weather that results in very
little air conditioning load, during dinner).  As soon as the weather
warms up, air conditioning load drives the electric consumption to the
highest loads (and therefore, prices).  Yes, solar offsets some of the air
conditioning load, but FAR from all of it.
This week, most of California is cold (by our standards), but clear.  That
means that the AC load is very small, but solar is doing pretty well (for
winter months).  Looking at yesterday's chart from the California
Independent System Operator (the people who manage bulk power statewide),
the largest difference between total demand and net demand (total minus
solar and wind) was about 10:25 AM.  That seems a little odd since that is
hours before normal peak solar hour.  The chart does not differentiate
between solar and wind.  There is a different chart that does break down
sources of renewable energy.  It confirms that the solar peak was about
10:25.  As I type this (08:25 AM) solar is producing 2,828 MW and wind is
86 MW.  This constitutes about 62% of renewable sources, and all renewable
sources constitute 18.5% of total demand.

If you want to see what it's doing, check out:   http://www.caiso.com

73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[jim--- via EV]

Bob Bruninga said (in part):
> With solar, day will become the new night, with the cheapest energy
available during the day. Already is in California.
 
 
Where are you getting that?  That is certainly not true.  Demand is still 
highest during the day (or with the current weather that results in very little 
air conditioning load, during dinner).  As soon as the weather warms up, air 
conditioning load drives the electric consumption to the highest loads (and 
therefore, prices).  Yes, solar offsets some of the air conditioning load, but 
FAR from all of it. 
This week, most of California is cold (by our standards), but clear.  That 
means that the AC load is very small, but solar is doing pretty well (for 
winter months).  Looking at yesterday's chart from the California Independent 
System Operator (the people who manage bulk power statewide), the largest 
difference between total demand and net demand (total minus solar and wind) was 
about 10:25 AM.  That seems a little odd since that is hours before normal peak 
solar hour.  The chart does not differentiate between solar and wind.  There is 
a different chart that does break down sources of renewable energy.  It 
confirms that the solar peak was about 10:25.  As I type this (08:25 AM) solar 
is producing 2,828 MW and wind is 86 MW.  This constitutes about 62% of 
renewable sources, and all renewable sources constitute 18.5% of total demand.
 
If you want to see what it's doing, check out:   http://www.caiso.com
 
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[Michael Ross via EV]

You are implying that shipping docks will be manned all night long in this
scenario. Or that residential or postal workers will want to try to deliver
in the dark. There are very real downsides to tripping around in the night,
and 3rd shift work is bad for health.

When I was delivering furniture in the 80's I often chose to do the travel
(as opposed to delivery) at night to avoid the danger and boredom of
gridlock. But I would definitely not have enjoyed invading customers
driveways and landscape at night.  I think residential night delivery is
not a good idea.

Night delivery isn't a totally bad idea, but it might be hard to work out
the logistics.

Over the road is already a nighttime operation for many.


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 10:50 AM, John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >Mail at night!
> >I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
> >haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
> >to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
> >those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
> >a great balance to the grid.
>
> Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
> You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during the
> day when demand is hi.
>
>
> --
>
> Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/
> projects/sensibleemail/
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>
>


-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(19) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
Google Phone and Text
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 4 Jan 2018 at 7:50, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

> Actually, that is the reverse of what you want. You want to store
> during the night when demand is low, then use during the day when
> demand is hi. 

It's certainly the opposite of what we do now.

Robert seems to be suggesting that in the future we'll store energy when 
PRODUCTION (solar) is high (day), and use that energy when the production is 
zero (night). 

That assumes that PV becomes the dominant energy source for the postal 
service, at least.  I suppose it could happen, but honestly, I don't see it 
as very likely in the US.  From what I can tell, the USPS is not an 
especially forward-looking operation.  I'm surprised that they're even 
considering EVs for their new long-life vehicle design, and will be VERY 
surprised if they actually buy and keep using a significant number of them.

Solar-powered postal delivery seems more possible (though still not all that 
likely) somewhere in the EU, say France or Germany.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Thu Jan 04 07:41:44 PST 2018 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Mail at night!
>I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
>haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
>to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
>those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
>a great balance to the grid.

Actually, that is the reverse of what you want.
You want to store during the night when demand is low, then use during the day 
when demand is hi.


--

Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Mail at night!
I suspect that in 20 years, the post office, UPS and Amazon and all long
haul trucking and deliveries will all be at night.  Think of the benefit
to the grid and everyone (including reduced traffic congestion).  All
those battries storing energy all day long and then being used at night as
a great balance to the grid.

With solar, day will become the new night, with the cheapest energy
available during the day.  Already is in California.

Bob


-Original Message-
Subject: [EVDL] No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid.
Again: Good News: EVs Are Not ...

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114558_no-electric-cars-still-arent-
crashing-the-grid-again
No, electric cars (still) aren't crashing the grid. Again.
Jan 3, 2018 ... Remember all those brownouts we experienced last week
because everyone plugged in their electric cars? No? Oh right, that didn't
happen. It still isn't happening. And it's unlikely to ever happen. That's
the conclusion of a study by the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC),
using infrastructure investment data from ...
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