Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On 14 May 2014, at 22:44, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 7:31:17 PM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 May 2014, at 03:29, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2014 6:11 PM, LizR wrote: On 14 May 2014 11:15, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2014 4:06 PM, LizR wrote: On 14 May 2014 06:29, m

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

It doesn't handle the semiconservative replication case, where each resultant person retains half the material from the original, and you run into ship of theseus and sorites paradoxes On Thursday, May 15, 2014, meekerdb wrote: > On 5/14/2014 9:51 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: > > But then the identi

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

I'm deeply conflicted. On one had I want the illusion but i also want to act in accordance with the truth. My reason for my self interest lies in my subjective expectation that I aill experience being my future self. I cant have the basis of all my actions be a lie. so much cognitive dissonance On

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014 16:24, meekerdb wrote: > On 5/14/2014 9:51 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: > > But then the identity relationship is no longer transitive... > > Suppose a brave officer to have been flogged when a boy at school, for > robbing an orchard, to have taken a standard from the enemy in his fir

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/14/2014 9:51 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: But then the identity relationship is no longer transitive... Suppose a brave officer to have been flogged when a boy at school, for robbing an orchard, to have taken a standard from the enemy in his first campaign, and to have been made a general in a

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014 13:43, Dennis Ochei wrote: > You can still care if you die normally but something like the swampman > thought experiment is just as good as ordinary survival under Parfit's > view, which a reductionist I feel is forced to accept. You care that you > keep experiencing but there is n

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

Im not convinced you need it. In Kolak's dissertation "I am you," which you can google and find in its 700 page entirety he defends the idea rather well with no mention of the actuality of all possible things. He goes about arguing that the borders we take as individuating boundaries don't actually

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

Ah - that doesn't make sense if you take the ensemble everything idea to be true. Open Individualism doesn't seem very believable unless the ensemble everything idea is true. Cheers On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 12:56:18AM -0500, Dennis Ochei wrote: > In this scenario you dont experience all possible

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

In this scenario you dont experience all possible experiences, only the experiences that actually arise during the course of history On Thursday, May 15, 2014, Russell Standish wrote: > On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 09:05:15PM -0700, Dennis Ochei wrote: > > > > > > Under Daniel Kolak's open individual

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 09:05:15PM -0700, Dennis Ochei wrote: > > > Under Daniel Kolak's open > individualism there > exists one numerically distinct person who is everyone at all times. What I > want to explore is the implications of this the

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

Also would you bite the bullet that if i where to erase your personal memories then torture your body it wouldnt count as torturing you? On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, Dennis Ochei wrote: > But then the identity relationship is no longer transitive... > > Suppose a brave officer to have been flogge

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

But then the identity relationship is no longer transitive... Suppose a brave officer to have been flogged when a boy at school, for robbing an orchard, to have taken a standard from the enemy in his first campaign, and to have been made a general in advanced life: Suppose also, which must be admi

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014 15:43, Dennis Ochei wrote: > You can still care if you die normally but something like the swampman > thought experiment is just as good as ordinary survival under Parfit's > view, which a reductionist I feel is forced to accept. You care that you > keep experiencing but there is n

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

You can still care if you die normally but something like the swampman thought experiment is just as good as ordinary survival under Parfit's view, which a reductionist I feel is forced to accept. You care that you keep experiencing but there is no self to be found that persists. Destructive upload

Re: Rat Park

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 01:51:06PM +1200, LizR wrote: > That's odd. I found it easy to read (the size of the images adjusted to > fill my browser window, so if it was too small I could expand the window) > and my mouse wheel scrolled the images sideways with no problem. I just > followed the link,

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014 04:33, Dennis Ochei wrote: > But that's exactly the point. Consciousness, if construed as the container > of conscious experience (or the surface upon which experience is > written) has no principle of individuation--all conscious experiencers > abstracted from their experience are

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014 07:12, LizR wrote: > On 15 May 2014 06:03, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > >> On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, Dennis Ochei wrote: >> >>> Under Daniel Kolak's open >>> individualism there >>> exists one numerically distinct person who i

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

Looks like you're already way ahead of me. Anyway, no doubt Bruno will explain. On 15 May 2014 14:50, Dennis Ochei wrote: > I figured PA was either Peano or Presburger Arithmetic. I'm used to seeing > ZFC but not ZF by itself. The other three are total mysteries to me > > > On Wednesday, May 14

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

I figured PA was either Peano or Presburger Arithmetic. I'm used to seeing ZFC but not ZF by itself. The other three are total mysteries to me On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, LizR wrote: > On 15 May 2014 14:26, Dennis Ochei > > > wrote: > >> G*, G, arithmetical hypostases, PA, ZF? > > > PA is Pean

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014 14:26, Dennis Ochei wrote: > G*, G, arithmetical hypostases, PA, ZF? PA is Peano Arithmetic and ZF is Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory. (Whatever they are!) Just to prove I've managed to learn *something* while I've been here. -- You received this message because you are subscribe

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

G*, G, arithmetical hypostases, PA, ZF? I must not know the lingo round here On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 14 May 2014, at 06:05, Dennis Ochei wrote: > > Under Daniel Kolak's open > individualism there > exists one nu

Re: Rat Park

That's odd. I found it easy to read (the size of the images adjusted to fill my browser window, so if it was too small I could expand the window) and my mouse wheel scrolled the images sideways with no problem. I just followed the link, read the first few panels, then scrolled sideways to read the

Re: Rat Park

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 03:22:10PM +0200, Telmo Menezes wrote: > http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comics_en/rat-park/ Sorry - I had to give up reading this. The images are too small to read the writing, and the navigation between opening an image in a separate window and going back to the navigation

Re: TRONNIES

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 09:47:35AM -0700, John Ross wrote: > Attached is the section of my book that describes the structure of the alpha > particle. > > John R. > As Liz said, there's no detail or explanation here. We know that Coulomb forces follow the inverse square law, right? I really don'

Re: TRONNIES

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 09:59:45AM -0700, John Ross wrote: > I assume you would agree that a photon is self-propelled. No. What does that even mean? Protons and alpha particles are also self-propelled. They are sel-propelled by their own internal coulomb forces. Electrons, protons, atomic n

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On 14 May 2014, at 03:52, LizR wrote: On 14 May 2014 13:29, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2014 6:11 PM, LizR wrote: On 14 May 2014 11:15, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2014 4:06 PM, LizR wrote: On 14 May 2014 06:29, meekerdb wrote: On 5/12/2014 9:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Turing *emulation* is only

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On 13 May 2014, at 17:26, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2014 1:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The result of the computation does not change depending on when I started it, who started it and so on. Peter Jones would say that it does matter. There are diophantine equation which emulate you in our

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On 14 May 2014, at 01:15, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2014 4:06 PM, LizR wrote: On 14 May 2014 06:29, meekerdb wrote: On 5/12/2014 9:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Turing *emulation* is only meaningful in the context of emulating one part relative to another part that is not emulated, i.e. is "r

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 14 May 2014, at 06:05, Dennis Ochei wrote: Under Daniel Kolak's open individualism there exists one numerically distinct person who is everyone at all times. What I want to explore is the implications of this theory for a self interested individual. For those unfamiliar with Open Indivi

Re: Video of VCR

On 14 May 2014, at 03:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: I'm showing that authenticity can be empirically demonstrated, and that the failure of logic to detect the significance of authenticity can be empirically demonstrated, but that neither authenticity or the failure of logic to detect it can be

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On Thursday, May 15, 2014, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:25:09 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, LizR wrote: >> >> Comp isn't really a theory, so testing it is a bit problematic. It's >>> "just" a logical argument which purports to show

Re: TRONNIES

On 15 May 2014 04:59, John Ross wrote: > I assume you would agree that a photon is self-propelled. Protons and > alpha particles are also self-propelled. They are sel-propelled by their > own internal coulomb forces. Electrons, protons, atomic nuclei and atoms > are all perpetual motion machi

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

"Speech is silver, silence is gold. Self is universe. Please excuse interruption, crossing in mist." -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everythin

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014 06:03, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, Dennis Ochei wrote: > >> Under Daniel Kolak's open >> individualism there >> exists one numerically distinct person who is everyone at all times. What I >> want to e

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

I would rather find a logically coherent reason to keep my dollars under open individualism, Brent. Something deep inside me recoils at the conclusion. But the only other coherent story of subjective expectation is the no-self theory, which undermines so much of my value system that I'd rather not

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:25:09 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, LizR > wrote: > > Comp isn't really a theory, so testing it is a bit problematic. It's >> "just" a logical argument which purports to show the consequences of taking >> seriously the idea that brain

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 7:31:17 PM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 14 May 2014, at 03:29, meekerdb wrote: > > On 5/13/2014 6:11 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 14 May 2014 11:15, meekerdb > wrote: > >> On 5/13/2014 4:06 PM, LizR wrote: >> >> On 14 May 2014 06:29, meekerdb >wrote: >> >>> O

Re: Moneybot Singularity

On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 4:10:11 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: > > Craig: about your title... > I see no 'realistic' meaning to SINGULARITY (although it may be calculated > in many fashions by diverse experts...!) > Taking a STRICT meaning of the term, it has NOTING. Not even borderlines, > which w

Re: Moneybot Singularity

Craig: about your title... I see no 'realistic' meaning to SINGULARITY (although it may be calculated in many fashions by diverse experts...!) Taking a STRICT meaning of the term, it has NOTING. Not even borderlines, which would belong INTO (forbidden). So the only singularity I can fathom is the i

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/14/2014 11:03 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, Dennis Ochei > wrote: Under Daniel Kolak's open individualism there exists one numerically distinct person who is ever

Moneybot Singularity

An interesting little thought experiment to consider: Is there a way to create a program or AI moneybot which can figure out how to make more money on the internet than it costs? I see this as a sneaky way to get at the trans-computable nature of consciousness as it brings up issues about the

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

But that's exactly the point. Consciousness, if construed as the container of conscious experience (or the surface upon which experience is written) has no principle of individuation--all conscious experiencers abstracted from their experience are identical. For this reason a consciousness swap is

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On 14 May 2014, at 09:36, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 May 2014, at 16:12, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 May 2014, at 12:12, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, May 10, 2014 a

Re: Rat Park

Not bad! That shows morphism might help for people in cages or feel in cage. It is just crazy to make a medication illegal, unless you want to build an underground economical power. Bruno PS sorry for the delays, problem with the server or provider ... On 14 May 2014, at 15:22, Telmo Mene

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On 14 May 2014, at 03:29, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2014 6:11 PM, LizR wrote: On 14 May 2014 11:15, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2014 4:06 PM, LizR wrote: On 14 May 2014 06:29, meekerdb wrote: On 5/12/2014 9:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Turing *emulation* is only meaningful in the context of emul

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, Dennis Ochei wrote: > Under Daniel Kolak's open > individualism there > exists one numerically distinct person who is everyone at all times. What I > want to explore is the implications of this theory for a self inter

RE: TRONNIES

I assume you would agree that a photon is self-propelled. Protons and alpha particles are also self-propelled. They are sel-propelled by their own internal coulomb forces. Electrons, protons, atomic nuclei and atoms are all perpetual motion machines. John R. From: everything-list@goo

Re: UDA videos, problems with Part 2 and part 3?

Thanks Liz, thanks Richard. I guess the problem is local. Best, Bruno On 14 May 2014, at 00:42, LizR wrote: Links 2 and 3 appear to work OK for me. (I will be watching the whole thing at some point...) On 14 May 2014 03:27, Richard Ruquist wrote: All 3 links worked for me. Richard On

Rat Park

http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comics_en/rat-park/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to thi

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, LizR wrote: Comp isn't really a theory, so testing it is a bit problematic. It's "just" > a logical argument which purports to show the consequences of taking > seriously the idea that brains are Turing emulable. > Why do you think it can't be shown that brains are Tu

Climate change debates

Hi, Climate change. Funny video on a real problem with debate (not just on climate change) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuGCJJUGsg Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubsc

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 12 May 2014, at 16:12, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 10 May 2014, at 12:12, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 8:30 AM, LizR wrote: >> >>> On