Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On 10/28/2018 7:54 PM, Tomas Pales wrote: On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 3:17:58 AM UTC+1, Brent wrote: On 10/28/2018 5:18 PM, Tomas Pales wrote: On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 12:33:23 AM UTC+1, Brent wrote:   There is no logical inconsistency in a flying pink elephan

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 3:17:58 AM UTC+1, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/28/2018 5:18 PM, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 12:33:23 AM UTC+1, Brent wrote: >> >> >> There is no logical inconsistency in a flying pink elephant existing >> right now in my den beside me

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 1:45 PM Tomas Pales wrote: > *How close do atoms or subatomic particles come to each other when they > collide in particle accelerators? Is the distance between them far from > Planck scale at the moment of collision?* > Nowhere near close enough. The radius of a atom is

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On 10/28/2018 5:23 PM, Tomas Pales wrote: On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 12:38:02 AM UTC+1, Brent wrote: On 10/28/2018 4:50 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 10:27:07 AM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:05 AM UTC

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On 10/28/2018 5:18 PM, Tomas Pales wrote: On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 12:33:23 AM UTC+1, Brent wrote:   There is no logical inconsistency in a flying pink elephant existing right now in my den beside me. But don't see one. First, it is not clear whether the existence of a flyin

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On 10/28/2018 4:54 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 11:38:02 PM UTC, Brent wrote: On 10/28/2018 4:50 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 10:27:07 AM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On 10/28/2018 10:45 AM, Tomas Pales wrote: On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 5:35:58 PM UTC+1, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 12:18 PM Tomas Pales > wrote: /> Ok, and if it becomes as strong as the other forces below the distance of 1 mm (as you wrote that stri

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On 10/28/2018 9:17 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: Instead of relativism, philosophers talk of *perspectivism*. (Nietzsche is said to be the father of perspectivism. I say, actually, Kant. ...) A Scientist sees a bunch of phenomena (recorded as data) and says, I have written a theory θ in a lang

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On 10/28/2018 9:04 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 11:44 AM Tomas Pales > wrote: > /Why is it too hard to measure gravity for distances less than 1 mm?/ Because gravity is 10^36 times weaker than electromagnetism This is because the compari

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 12:38:02 AM UTC+1, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/28/2018 4:50 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 10:27:07 AM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:05 AM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrote: >>> >>

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Monday, October 29, 2018 at 12:33:23 AM UTC+1, Brent wrote: > > > There is no logical inconsistency in a flying pink elephant existing > right now in my den beside me. But don't see one. > First, it is not clear whether the existence of a flying pink elephant in your den is consistent wit

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 11:38:02 PM UTC, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/28/2018 4:50 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 10:27:07 AM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:05 AM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrote: >>> >>>

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On 10/28/2018 4:50 AM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 10:27:07 AM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:05 AM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: *So what? The point I am making is that some mathematical objects ex

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On 10/28/2018 3:27 AM, Tomas Pales wrote: On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:05 AM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: *So what? The point I am making is that some mathematical objects exist but are not instantiated in physical reality, thus falsifying his hypothesis, unless yo

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:24:22 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 8:00:55 PM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 2:40:03 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: >> >>> >>> As I said, a consistently defined object is something r

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 8:00:55 PM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 2:40:03 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > >> >> As I said, a consistently defined object is something rather than >> nothing, so it is there in some sense. >> > > > *You mean like a unic

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:23:28 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 27 Oct 2018, at 22:36, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 8:17:09 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 9:19:01 PM UTC+2, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrote:

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 2:40:03 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 1:34:09 PM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: > >> >> *This definition of existence is self serving, and IMO theoretically and >> philosophically extraneous. There is no reason to assume so

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 2:55:30 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 8:12 AM > wrote: > > >> > *the Eastern mystics could very well be right that the external world >> is illusory.* > > > Mystics love to say stuff like that because they think it sounds deep, but > I do

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:02:27 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 27 Oct 2018, at 17:41, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 3:20:23 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 5:40 PM wrote: >> >> *> the concept of a plane wave, one of the

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 5:35:58 PM UTC+1, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 12:18 PM Tomas Pales > wrote: > > *> Ok, and if it becomes as strong as the other forces below the distance >> of 1 mm (as you wrote that string theory with the curled extra dimensions >> suggest

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 12:18 PM Tomas Pales wrote: *> Ok, and if it becomes as strong as the other forces below the distance > of 1 mm (as you wrote that string theory with the curled extra dimensions > suggests) why has it not been detected below the distance of 1 mm?* > Nobody knows how tight

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 5:05:14 PM UTC+1, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 11:44 AM Tomas Pales > wrote: > > > *Why is it too hard to measure gravity for distances less than 1 mm?* >> > > Because gravity is 10^36 times weaker than electromagnetism and you'd need > to mea

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 10:27:56 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 27 Oct 2018, at 22:59, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 3:21:33 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 2:52:51 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>>

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 12:02 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *You have not read after step 3, * > True, and I do not indent to do so until you fix the very silly blunder you made in step 3 which I am now quite certain you never will. I am also quite certain you will respond to this with "what blunder

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 28 Oct 2018, at 01:40, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 5:46:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 10/27/2018 1:21 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 2:52:51 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 10/26/2018 11:50 PM, Philip Thri

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 11:44 AM Tomas Pales wrote: > *Why is it too hard to measure gravity for distances less than 1 mm?* > Because gravity is 10^36 times weaker than electromagnetism and you'd need to measure the gravitational force between spheres less than 1 mm in radius and that force is t

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 28 Oct 2018, at 01:18, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 11:41 AM > wrote: > > > A spherical wave asymptotically approaches a plane wave as it progresses in > > space and time, but it never becomes a plane wave. This where the rubber > > hits t

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 28 Oct 2018, at 00:27, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 10:07:26 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 11:38:36 PM UTC+2, agrays...@gmail.com <> > wrote: > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 9:10:50 PM UTC, Tomas Pale

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 28 Oct 2018, at 00:16, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 9:58:33 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 11:35:20 PM UTC+2, agrays...@gmail.com <> > wrote: > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 9:10:50 PM UTC, Tomas Pales

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 27 Oct 2018, at 23:38, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 9:10:50 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 10:36:30 PM UTC+2, agrays...@gmail.com <> > wrote: > > As I understand the MUH, it states that every well defined math

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:55:30 PM UTC+1, John Clark wrote: > > We know experimentally that the inverse square law is true for distances > greater than 1 mm but at distances less than that it's too hard to measure > gravity to know what's going on. > Why is it too hard to measure gravit

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 27 Oct 2018, at 23:16, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 10:49:35 PM UTC+2, Brent wrote: > > > On 10/27/2018 3:15 AM, Tomas Pales wrote: >> >> >> On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 2:55:57 AM UTC+2, Brent wrote: >> >> Logical consistency is a relation between

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 27 Oct 2018, at 22:59, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 3:21:33 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 2:52:51 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 10/26/2018 11:50 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> Logical consistency is a relation bet

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 27 Oct 2018, at 22:36, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 8:17:09 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 9:19:01 PM UTC+2, agrays...@gmail.com <> > wrote: > > "Consistently defined" means what? Plane waves are easily define

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:45:45 PM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 2:40:03 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 1:34:09 PM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> >>> *This definition of existence is self servin

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:16 PM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Oct 2018, at 21:33, Tomas Pales > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 8:06:03 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> OK. But it seemed to me you said that is better not to make unnecessary >> assumpti

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 27 Oct 2018, at 20:56, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 1:35:14 PM UTC-5, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 4:29:08 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 5:41:22 PM UTC+2, agrays...@gmail.com <>

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 11:02 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > *Assuming there is a physical reality* [...] Assume there is *NOT* a physical reality and tell me how things would be different. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 27 Oct 2018, at 17:41, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 3:20:23 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 5:40 PM > wrote: > > > the concept of a plane wave, one of the solutions of Maxwell's equations. > > It certainly doesn't exist in THI

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 8:12 AM wrote: > > *the Eastern mystics could very well be right that the external world > is illusory.* Mystics love to say stuff like that because they think it sounds deep, but I don't think it is because they never explain how the illusion works, they don't even kno

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 27 Oct 2018, at 02:55, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 10/26/2018 1:03 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 2:33:13 PM UTC-5, Tomas Pales wrote: >> >> >> On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 8:06:03 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> OK. But it seemed to me you

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 2:40:03 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 1:34:09 PM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: > >> >> *This definition of existence is self serving, and IMO theoretically and >> philosophically extraneous. There is no reason to assume so

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 1:49:30 PM UTC+1, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-5, Tomas Pales wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 12:58:27 PM UTC+1, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >>> >>> But if the running code of a robot (say installed in Soph

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 26 Oct 2018, at 23:59, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 3:14:05 PM UTC-5, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 10:03:07 PM UTC+2, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 2:33:13 PM UTC-5, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > On Friday

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 1:34:09 PM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > *This definition of existence is self serving, and IMO theoretically and > philosophically extraneous. There is no reason to assume something exists > simply because it's consistent with anything, even the laws of

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

> On 26 Oct 2018, at 21:33, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 8:06:03 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > OK. But it seemed to me you said that is better not to make unnecessary > assumption. > > My only ontological assumption is that existence is logical consistency.

Re: The hard problem of matter

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 8:29:32 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Oct 2018, at 18:25, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 9:50:13 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 25 Oct 2018, at 18:36, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, October 2

Re: The hard problem of matter

> On 26 Oct 2018, at 18:25, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 9:50:13 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 25 Oct 2018, at 18:36, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 11:03:22 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> There was

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:22:46 AM UTC-5, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 12:58:27 PM UTC+1, Philip Thrift wrote: > >> >> But if the running code of a robot (say installed in Sophia [ >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(robot) ] ) is compiled from some >> p

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 12:18:45 PM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 12:50:04 PM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 10:27:07 AM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:05 AM UTC+1

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 12:58:27 PM UTC+1, Philip Thrift wrote: > > But if the running code of a robot (say installed in Sophia [ > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(robot) ] ) is compiled from some > paraconsistent logic program, I think it's perfectly fine to say *"Sophia > is a

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 9:27:56 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 25 Oct 2018, at 17:12, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 10:39:11 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> If a system is in a superposition of states, whatever value measured, >> wi

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 12:50:04 PM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 10:27:07 AM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:05 AM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> *So what? The point I am making is that s

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 11:19:08 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 11:41 AM > > wrote: > > >> *> A spherical wave asymptotically approaches a plane wave as it >> progresses in space and time, but it never becomes a plane wave. This where >> the rubber hits the road

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 5:38:27 AM UTC-5, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:23:25 AM UTC+1, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-5, Tomas Pales wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 12:49:48 AM UTC+2, Bre

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 10:27:07 AM UTC, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > > On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:05 AM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> *So what? The point I am making is that some mathematical objects exist >> but are not instantiated in physical reality, thus falsify

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 7:23:25 AM UTC+1, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 7:57:48 PM UTC-5, Tomas Pales wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 12:49:48 AM UTC+2, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> Which high-lights the category error. Objects can't be inconsi

Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis

On Sunday, October 28, 2018 at 3:37:05 AM UTC+1, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > *So what? The point I am making is that some mathematical objects exist > but are not instantiated in physical reality, thus falsifying his > hypothesis, unless you insist that they are instantiated in other > un

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

> On 25 Oct 2018, at 17:12, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 10:39:11 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > If a system is in a superposition of states, whatever value measured, will be > repeated if the same system is repeatedly measured. But what happens