Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
Hi meekerdb The killing of anybody is wrong. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-27, 14:19:38 Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality On 1/27/2013 3:28 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb Germany has always been antisemitic, Hitler just organized the killing jews, who unfortunately were also socialists/communists Are you saying it was OK to kill all those women and children because they were communists. Of course in Spain and France it was the socialists and communists who provided the resistance to the fascists and nazis - thus showing their ethical superiority to Lutherans and Catholics. but anyway, Luther's writings were done somewhat obscurely in the 16th century. Not so obscurely that he failed to found a religious sect that was dominant in northern Germany. Brent - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-26, 11:56:12 Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality On 1/26/2013 3:25 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 1. Luther hated jews, but he had nothing to do with?he extermination of the jews. He didn't directly kill any, he just motivated the killing. But then the same is true of Hitler. Brent DreamMail - Your mistake not to try it once, but my mistake for your leaving off. use again www.dreammail.org %--DreamMail_AD_END-- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6054 - Release Date: 01/24/13 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
Hi John Mikes Luther did not motivate anybody to kill jews. - Receiving the following content - From: John Mikes Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-26, 16:24:49 Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality Brent: you do beware of the leader - follower position. If a leader actively also empowers the follower then (s)he may be responsible for anything that happens in such empoweredness. Luther conscience-wise, Hitler materially/organizationally empowered the followers. The 'leader' of the KKK, or the NRA is responsible for crimes committed in their empowerment.? The 'judge' is not the killer of the executed criminal, but responsible for the killing - although many systems give the judge impunity for mistakes. How about wars? I take exception to 'poverty' not being a forced oppression: in many systems the 'upper class' rich people deprive the 'lower class' paupers of means to elevate economically, although cute scientists explain such development as a rightful evolution in society. They lie.? When Boehner urges tax-cuts for the super-rich and deep cuts in benefits for poor people (and succeeds) that is willful oppression. He personally may not push a slum-kid into hunger - or crime, but IS responsible nonetheless.? I was an underdog under both Nazis and Commis, I know what it feels to be forcibly oppressed. NG!? JohnM On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 11:56 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2013 3:25 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 1. Luther hated jews, but he had nothing to do with?he extermination of the jews. He didn't directly kill any, he just motivated the killing.? But then the same is true of Hitler. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ? ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
Hi meekerdb Germany has always been antisemitic, Hitler just organized the killing jews, who unfortunately were also socialists/communists but anyway, Luther's writings were done somewhat obscurely in the 16th century. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-26, 11:56:12 Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality On 1/26/2013 3:25 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 1. Luther hated jews, but he had nothing to do with?he extermination of the jews. He didn't directly kill any, he just motivated the killing.? But then the same is true of Hitler. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
On Sunday, January 27, 2013 5:58:15 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi John Mikes Luther did not motivate anybody to kill jews. Why would you think that could possibly be true? If the head of Coca-Cola began a weekly TV program about how your house should be burned down, and that your family should have no legal rights, and that it is the fault of the viewer if they are not killed, would you think it a coincidence that you and your family should be targeted for murder? From the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler In November 1936 the Roman Catholic prelate Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber met Hitler at Berghof for a three hour meeting. He left the meeting convinced that Hitler was deeply religious and that The Reich Chancellor undoubtedly lives in belief in God. He recognises Christianity as the builder of Western culture. Hitler viewed the Jews as enemies of all civilization and as materialistic, unspiritual beings, writing in Mein Kampf: His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Hitler described his supposedly divine mandate for his anti-Semitism: Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.[102] In his rhetoric Hitler also fed on the old accusation of Jewish Deicide. Because of this it has been speculated that Christian anti-Semitism influenced Hitler's ideas, especially such works as Martin Luther's essay On the Jews and Their Lies and the writings of Paul de Lagarde. Others disagree with this view.[103] In support of this view, Hitler biographer John Toland opines that Hitler carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God... Nevertheless, in Mein Kampf Hitler writes of an upbringing in which no particular anti-Semitic prejudice prevailed. According to historian Lucy Dawidowicz, anti-Semitism has a long history within Christianity, and that the line of anti-Semitic descent from Luther to Hitler is easy to draw. In her The War Against the Jews, 1933-1945, she writes that Luther and Hitler were obsessed by the demonologized universe inhabited by Jews. Dawidowicz states that the similarities between Luther's anti-Jewish writings and modern anti-Semitism are no coincidence, because they derived from a common history of Judenhass, which can be traced to Haman's advice to Ahasuerus, although modern German anti-Semitism also has its roots in German nationalism.[104] Catholic historian José Sánchez argues that Hitler's anti-Semitism was explicitly rooted in Christianity.[105] Hitler simplified Arthur de Gobineau's elaborate ideas of struggle for survival among the different races, from which the Aryan race, guided by providence, was supposed to be the torchbearers of civilization.[106] In Hitler's conception, Jews were enemies of all civilization, especially the Volk. Although Hitler has been called a Social Darwinist, he was not such in the usual sense of the word. Whereas Social Darwinism stressed struggle, change, the survival of the strongest, and a ceaseless battle of competition, Hitler, through the use of modern industrial technology and impersonal bureaucratic methods ended all competition by the ruthless suppression of all opponents.[107] His understanding of Darwinism was incomplete and based loosely on the theory of survival of the fittest in a social context, as popularly misunderstood at the time. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
OK, careless connotation. JM On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 5:58 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi John Mikes Luther did not motivate anybody to kill jews. - Receiving the following content - *From:* John Mikes jami...@gmail.com *Receiver:* everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com *Time:* 2013-01-26, 16:24:49 *Subject:* Re: Martin Luther on Rationality Brent: you do beware of the leader - follower position. If a leader actively also empowers the follower then (s)he may be responsible for anything that happens in such empoweredness. Luther conscience-wise, Hitler materially/organizationally empowered the followers. The 'leader' of the KKK, or the NRA is responsible for crimes committed in their empowerment.� The 'judge' is not the killer of the executed criminal, but responsible for the killing - although many systems give the judge impunity for mistakes. How about wars? I take exception to 'poverty' not being a forced oppression: in many systems the 'upper class' rich people deprive the 'lower class' paupers of means to elevate economically, although cute scientists explain such development as a rightful evolution in society. They lie.� When Boehner urges tax-cuts for the super-rich and deep cuts in benefits for poor people (and succeeds) that is willful oppression. He personally may not push a slum-kid into hunger - or crime, but IS responsible nonetheless.� I was an underdog under both Nazis and Commis, I know what it feels to be forcibly oppressed. NG!� JohnM On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 11:56 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/26/2013 3:25 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 1. Luther hated jews, but he had nothing to do with爐he extermination of the jews. He didn't directly kill any, he just motivated the killing.� But then the same is true of Hitler. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. � � -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. *DreamMail* - Your mistake not to try it once, but my mistake for your leaving off. use again www.dreammail.org %--DreamMail_AD_END-- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Germany has always been antisemitic Thanks to that pioneering antisemitic crusader, Martin Luther. Hitler just organized the killing jews, And the writings of Luther and Hitler on the Jews are almost indistinguishable, if you didn't know you'd be hard pressed to say who wrote what. Luther did not motivate anybody to kill jews. In one of Luther's last sermons final warning against the Jews he says If they [Jews ] could kill us all, they would gladly do it. They do it often, especially those who pose as physicians. In Luther's charmingly titled book On The Jews And Their Lies Martin Luther says Jews are full of the devil's feces which they wallow in like swine and are poisonous envenomed worms; and then Luther flat out says we are at fault in not slaying them. Four hundred years later the newspaper Der Sturmer called Luther's book the most radically antisemitic tract ever published and they should know, Der Sturmer was a Nazi newspaper; the prize possession of its editor Julius Streicher was a first edition of On The Jews And Their Lies. Streicher was hanged in 1946 after being convicted in Nuremberg for war crimes. And Luther wasn't just talk, when he gained political influence he got the Jews expelled from Saxony in 1537 and tried unsuccessfully to get them expelled from Brandenburg in 1543. Luther lobbied for laws allowing the burning of Jewish homes and schools and synagogues, to forbid Jews from traveling on roads, and for rabbis to be executed if they preach. Fortunately no ruler until Hitler enacted all of Luther's anti-Jewish recommendations. but anyway, Luther's writings were done somewhat obscurely in the 16th century. Obscurely??! Luther's writings set Europe aflame. Apparently we have a Lutheran who knows very little about Luther. But I repeat my question, why would anybody want to call themselves a Lutheran? We already agree that in matters of Astronomy and Geology Luther just made a fool of himself, and I think the above quotations shows that Luther was a moral imbecile, so if you must be associated with a bipedal hominid who lived hundreds of years ago couldn't you find a smarter or nicer one than Martin Luther? How about DaViciian or even Newtonian, Newton was a lot smarter than Luther and although Newton was pretty nasty he wasn't nearly as personally unpleasant as Martin Luther. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
Hi meekerdb 1. Luther hated jews, but he had nothing to do with the extermination of the jews. 2. You have to have faith in God, not somethning else. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-25, 16:42:44 Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality On 1/25/2013 4:14 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi John Clark, ? Other than Luther's ancient views on astronomy, and only with regard to salvation or damnation,?s??odern Lutheran I agree with everything Luther said, although I might temper down his invective, which was intended for the Pope. In that spirit, everything Luther said was correct and still is. ? Outside of science, true stupidity is to rely only on reason.? Faith opens the inner eye, which science wants to blind. That must be the eye with which Luther saw the extermination of the Jews.? It certainly wasn't the eye science. So it is said that with faith, you have everything, without faith you have nothing. With faith you have any belief you want. Brent ?e were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.? ?? ---Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
Hi Bruno Marchal Theology (beliefs) is objective and rational, but religiouis experience (faith) is subjective. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-25, 15:08:15 Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality On 24 Jan 2013, at 17:33, Richard Ruquist wrote: This is exactly what happened to Islam in the 1300s. After the fundamentalists took over, rationality was dispensed with, and centuries of scientific progress were deemed sufficient for Islam for all time. And so it seems that Islam went from world leadership in science to where it is today. Fortunately the same did not happen to the Christians. But based on John's comments, I wonder why not. I would say it did, but much earlier, in 523 after JC. I wrote in another forum: Theology is born as a science, but in 523 after JC, we have separated the spiritual from the rational, and we are still paying the big price. In the human science we act irrationally, as human history illustrates sadly. Yet, the rational is the genuine path of the spiritual, and the religions which deny this can only be based on bad faith, or special interests. I agree with Brent, science has plausibly regressed when the authoritative argument in theology has installed itself, and the Enlightenment is half enlightenment as non conventional theology did not yet go through. But with the development of technologies we can't afford the luxury to be sleepy on the deep questions. The choice is between lying a short period of time and evolving from little catastrophes, or lying for a long period of time and evolving from big catastrophes. Somehow. Bruno Richard On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:32 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: I sincerely hope that nobody believes I'm picking on Catholics because Protestant thinking is every bit as brain dead dumb as the Pope's. Martin Luther knew perfectly well that religious ideas cannot survive the slightest amount of rational analysis without completely falling apart, but his solution to that problem was not to get better ideas but to simply insist that people check their brain at the door before they start to think about God; here are some of the noises that particular bipedal hominid made with his mouth, although I think the noises made from the other end of Luther's gastrointestinal tract may have contain more wisdom, at least they might have disclosed some evidence on how the human digestive system works: ?eason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God? Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of reason. Reason should be destroyed in all Christians. Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and know nothing but the word of God. Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets. We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the world did not exist. People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth. After this contemptible performance, after flat out praising the virtues of stupidity and unapologetically trying to turn everybody into imbeciles I don't see how anyone could call themselves a Lutheran or a Protestant or even a Christian without intense embarrassment. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
On Saturday, January 26, 2013 6:25:40 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi meekerdb 1. Luther hated jews, but he had nothing to do with the extermination of the jews. In 1543 Luther published *On the Jews and Their Lies* in which he says that the Jews are a base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth. They are full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine.] The synagogue was a defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ... He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and these poisonous envenomed worms should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. *He also seems to advocate their murder, writing [w]e are at fault in not slaying them*. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism I'm not trying to embarrass you Roger, but you seem to have a habit of proclaiming the polar opposite of the truth as obvious fact. I don't think that you do this intentionally, or are part of a White-Christian-Conservative supremacist cult bent on historical revisionism, but you do seem to take some lazy liberties with the truth which require a rather more ignorant audience to allow than the one you have on this list. Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: 1. Luther hated jews, but he had nothing to do with the extermination of the jews. By his own words Luther advocated stupidity, and now you admit he was a hate filled racist demagog; so the man was stupid and the man was evil. So I repeat my earlier question, how could anyone call themselves a Lutheran without intense embarrassment? 2. You have to have faith in God, not somethning else. Why? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
Hi John Clark, Other than Luther's ancient views on astronomy, and only with regard to salvation or damnation, as a modern Lutheran I agree with everything Luther said, although I might temper down his invective, which was intended for the Pope. In that spirit, everything Luther said was correct and still is. Outside of science, true stupidity is to rely only on reason. Faith opens the inner eye, which science wants to blind. So it is said that with faith, you have everything, without faith you have nothing. - Receiving the following content - From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-24, 10:48:16 Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality I though that, this was not a site for enhancing the self?steem?f self-proclaimed rationalists neither an insult-you-an-infidel theraphy group.? 2013/1/24 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com I sincerely hope that nobody believes I'm picking on Catholics because Protestant thinking is every bit as brain dead dumb as the Pope's. Martin Luther knew perfectly well that religious ideas cannot survive the slightest amount of rational analysis without completely falling apart, but his solution to that problem was not to get better ideas but to simply insist that people check their brain at the door before they start to think about God; here are some of the noises that particular bipedal hominid made with his mouth, although I think the noises made from the other end of Luther's gastrointestinal tract may have contain more wisdom, at least they might have disclosed some evidence on how the human digestive system works:? ??? ?eason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God? Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of reason. Reason should be destroyed in all Christians. Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and know nothing but the word of God. Reason is the Devil's greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets. We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the world did not exist. People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon.? This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth. After this contemptible performance, after flat out praising the virtues of stupidity and unapologetically trying to turn everybody into imbeciles I don't see how anyone could call themselves a Lutheran or a Protestant or even a Christian without intense embarrassment. ?ohn K Clark? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
Hi Alberto G. Corona Luther wasn't a rationalist, and so contributed nothing to modern science. - Receiving the following content - From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-24, 13:26:59 Subject: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality 2013/1/24 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 1/24/2013 9:41 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: In fact it is just the opposite: ?he position of Luther, like the one of Ocham or Duns Scoto, which were strongly anti-reason, created the modern science and ?ere precursors of the most radical forms of Positivism. They were anti-rationlism, the idea that knowledge of the world could be arrived at by arm chair cogitation. ? 'precursor' to radical positivism would be moderate postivism whose precursor would simply be empiricism that is ahistoric. Rationalism did not exist at that time. You have to know the mentality of that time and what where their main philosophical preocupations. That is something that you have not the least intention to know.? Why? It is simple to understand: The three of them were against the use of reason in MORAL matters, in the knowledge of what is Good and what is Evil and in the knowledge of God, and in the meaning of life. They were against the use of Greek philosophy to interpret and complement the knowledge of the biblical revelation (the naturalist knowledge about these matters was called natural revelation). But they were not agains the use of science in any non religious matters. So they stablished the modern radical separation between faith and science, between is and ough . (which I strongly think is at the root of the contemporary social diseases ) Islam took a more radical path, While the protestants proclaimed the independence of God from any natural ?imitation of moral reasoning stablished by greek philosophy, but admitted natural causations, so science in the modern sense was not only possible but promoted, ?he main schools of Islam proclaimed no natural causation. For Islam, life was a continuous miracle, Exactly as argued by Aquinas who formulated the Church doctrine that God is the ground of all being and continuously sustains the world. That is not true. ?ith almost as contempt for the details as you, I would say that the God of Aquinas was limited by reason. That is exactly what Duns Scotus, Ocham and Luther rejected. and what appeared to be laws were nothing but the customs of All? that would change at any moment. So there was no motive to study what may change at any moment. Dr.Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani physicist and professor at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad, said, according to The New York Times (10/30/2001), that ?t was not Islamic to say that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water. ?ou were supposed to say that when you bring hydrogen and oxygen together then by the will of Allah water was created.? Brent The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment. ? ---Sheik Abdel-Aziz ibn Baaz, the supreme religious authority of ? ? ?audi Arabia, 1993, quoted by Yousef M. Ibrahim, ? ? ? The New York Times, 12 February 1993 ? ? ? Yes, that's 1993 CE, not BCE. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
Hi Roger: Luther contributed indirectly to modern science by adopting the Duns Scoto and the Occam rejection of universals. The Lutheran mindset was more concentrated in the study of particular phisical things and rejected speculation This gave the modern meaning of the world science. (I will not extend this, to avoid to mention the G-world and induce another rant by Pavlovian conditioning). 2013/1/25 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net Hi Alberto G. Corona Luther wasn't a rationalist, and so contributed nothing to modern science. - Receiving the following content - *From:* Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com *Receiver:* everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com *Time:* 2013-01-24, 13:26:59 *Subject:* Re: Martin Luther on Rationality 2013/1/24 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 1/24/2013 9:41 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: In fact it is just the opposite: 爐he position of Luther, like the one of Ocham or Duns Scoto, which were strongly anti-reason, created the modern science and 爓ere precursors of the most radical forms of Positivism. They were anti-rationlism, the idea that knowledge of the world could be arrived at by arm chair cogitation. 燗 'precursor' to radical positivism would be moderate postivism whose precursor would simply be empiricism that is ahistoric. Rationalism did not exist at that time. You have to know the mentality of that time and what where their main philosophical preocupations. That is something that you have not the least intention to know.� Why? It is simple to understand: The three of them were against the use of reason in MORAL matters, in the knowledge of what is Good and what is Evil and in the knowledge of God, and in the meaning of life. They were against the use of Greek philosophy to interpret and complement the knowledge of the biblical revelation (the naturalist knowledge about these matters was called natural revelation). But they were not agains the use of science in any non religious matters. So they stablished the modern radical separation between faith and science, between is and ough . (which I strongly think is at the root of the contemporary social diseases ) Islam took a more radical path, While the protestants proclaimed the independence of God from any natural 爈imitation of moral reasoning stablished by greek philosophy, but admitted natural causations, so science in the modern sense was not only possible but promoted, 爐he main schools of Islam proclaimed no natural causation. For Islam, life was a continuous miracle, Exactly as argued by Aquinas who formulated the Church doctrine that God is the ground of all being and continuously sustains the world. That is not true. 燱ith almost as contempt for the details as you, I would say that the God of Aquinas was limited by reason. That is exactly what Duns Scotus, Ocham and Luther rejected. and what appeared to be laws were nothing but the customs of All� that would change at any moment. So there was no motive to study what may change at any moment. Dr.Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani physicist and professor at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad, said, according to The New York Times (10/30/2001), that 搃t was not Islamic to say that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water. 慪ou were supposed to say that when you bring hydrogen and oxygen together then by the will of Allah water was created.挃 Brent The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment. � ---Sheik Abdel-Aziz ibn Baaz, the supreme religious authority of � � 燬audi Arabia, 1993, quoted by Yousef M. Ibrahim, � � � The New York Times, 12 February 1993 � � � Yes, that's 1993 CE, not BCE. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.**comeverything-list@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.comeverything-list%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** group/everything-list?hl=enhttp://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. *DreamMail* - Your mistake not to try it once, but my mistake for your leaving off. use again www.dreammail.org %--DreamMail_AD_END-- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Other than Luther's ancient views on astronomy, How about Luther's views on geology? How about his view that the Earth was less than six thousand years old, do you agree with that? as a modern Lutheran Which apparently is nearly identical to a medieval Lutheran. I agree with everything Luther said I do too, Luther gave a good explanation of why it is that if you want to be a good Christian you've got to be stupid. Faith opens the inner eye, which science wants to blind. And you know this because that's what mommy and daddy told you. So it is said that with faith, you have everything, without faith you have nothing. And you know this because that's what mommy and daddy told you. true stupidity is to rely only on reason. I rest my case. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
Hi John Clark No, I let science be science and religion be religion. Different languages, different meanings. You're confusing the two. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-25, 11:29:01 Subject: Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality On Fri, Jan 25, 2013? Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Other than Luther's ancient views on astronomy, ? How about Luther's views on geology? How about his view that the Earth was less than six thousand years old, do you agree with that? ? as a modern Lutheran Which apparently is nearly identical to a medieval Lutheran. I agree with everything Luther said I do too, Luther gave a good explanation of why it is that if you want to be a good Christian you've got to be stupid. ? Faith opens the inner eye, which science wants to blind. And you know this because that's what mommy and daddy told you. So it is said that with faith, you have everything, without faith you have nothing. And you know this because that's what mommy and daddy told you. true stupidity is to rely only on reason. I rest my case. ? John K Clark ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: the Bible provided western man with a completely new, revolutionary view of existence New?! The Bible is just a rehash of other Bronze age myths that it plagiarized from older religions. The Persian God Mithra, popular in 600 BC, was the son of the Sun God and was born on December 25. Mithra performed miracles, died, and was resurrected on the third day. Mithra was also called the good shepherd and had twelve companions that went with him when he traveled and taught. In 1000BC people thought the God Krishna was a carpenter born of a virgin and was baptized in a river. In 1200BC according to the Egyptian Book of the Dead the God Horus was the son of the God Osiris and was born to a virgin mother (even back then contradictions never bothered religion). Horus was baptized and the baptizer was later beheaded. Horus was tempted in the desert. Horus healed the sick and the blind. Horus cast out daemons. Horus raised a fellow named Asar from the dead. Horus walked on water. Horus had 12 disciples. Horus was affixed to a cross and killed but after 3 days 2 women announced that Horus our savior has been resurrected. The Bible, as far as I know, is the only sacred scripture that is choronological, time-based, as well as historical. Even forgetting the silly miracles much of the stuff in the Bible that could be true apparently isn't. For example, there is not one scrap of archeological evidence that any part of the exodus story is true, no evidence that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt or wondered in the desert for 40 years. Nor is there any evidence, as there certainly would have been if it was true, that there was a tax census that compelled Joseph and Mary to go to Bethlehem at the time of Jesus birth, nor would issuing such a decree even make sense for the Romans. There are whole books discussing this And there are whole books discussing Gilligan's Island which deserve equal respect. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
On Friday, January 25, 2013 1:59:53 PM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi John Clark That's all made-up stuff put on the web by people such as you. Not by the worldwide liberal conspiracy? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Re: Re: Martin Luther on Rationality
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: the ancient jews in the BC era knew nothing Not far from the truth. of the ancient myths, If they knew anything at all it was useless crap like that. “There is little notice of the Persian god [Mithra] in the Roman world until the beginning of the 2nd century, But Mithra was certainly known in the non-Roman world long before then and the Jews weren't conquered by Rome until 63 BC. but, from the year AD 136 onward, there are hundreds of dedicatory inscriptions to Mithra. And the oldest written gospels come from the fourth century. Osiris was born of the Egyptian sky-goddess Nut-Meri and the god Seb (Geb). Nut-Meri was not a virgin Who cares, I was talking about the God Horus not His dad; the God Osiris was the father of the God Horus. His birth was attended by three wise men. I did not write that! John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
