Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

Where does the information come from? / Quantum Theory as Quantum Information / ===… # Does information begin on the quarks level? No. Quark cannot leave an atom. Maybe does proton have quant of information? No. Single proton has no quant of information. Why? Because information can be transfe

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 09 Mar 2012, at 01:47, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/8/2012 1:43 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Mar 2012, at 18:36, Pzomby wrote: Yes, but even the symbols =, +, x, *, are notations that are substitutes for words. Eg. Equals, addition or union, multiplication. The operational notations a

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/8/2012 1:43 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Mar 2012, at 18:36, Pzomby wrote: On Mar 7, 5:29 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: OK. But it is not valid to infer from this, that mathematics is *about* description. On the contrary, mathematicians reason on "models" (realities, structures), and

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On Mar 8, 1:43 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 07 Mar 2012, at 18:36, Pzomby wrote: > > You state: “Quality is more 1p” but it is not exclusive to 1p. Humans > > observe and have empathy for others qualitative conditions and > > states. >I agree. That's still only 1p shared. An inanimate object

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 07 Mar 2012, at 18:36, Pzomby wrote: On Mar 7, 5:29 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: OK. But it is not valid to infer from this, that mathematics is *about* description. On the contrary, mathematicians reason on "models" (realities, structures), and they use description like all scientists. m

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On Mar 7, 5:29 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 06 Mar 2012, at 20:44, Pzomby wrote: > > > > On Mar 6, 10:14 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 06 Mar 2012, at 17:32, meekerdb wrote: > > >>> On 3/6/2012 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > It's a language game. > > The word "game" is so fuz

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 07 Mar 2012, at 16:34, Stephen P. King wrote: I am trying to be consistent and agree with your explanations but it is difficult. It is not your fault, our natural languages are biased inherently toward certain modalities of thinking to the exclusion of others. I was commenting on

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/7/2012 8:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Mar 2012, at 19:43, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/6/2012 12:52 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Mar 2012, at 17:53, meekerdb wrote: On 3/6/2012 5:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That specific retrodiction came from Bruno's hypothesis which is that u

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 06 Mar 2012, at 20:44, Pzomby wrote: On Mar 6, 10:14 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Mar 2012, at 17:32, meekerdb wrote: On 3/6/2012 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It's a language game. The word "game" is so fuzzy that this says nothing at all. Game theory is a branch of mathematic

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 06 Mar 2012, at 19:43, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/6/2012 12:52 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Mar 2012, at 17:53, meekerdb wrote: On 3/6/2012 5:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That specific retrodiction came from Bruno's hypothesis which is that universes are generated by computation.

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On Mar 6, 10:14 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 06 Mar 2012, at 17:32, meekerdb wrote: > > > On 3/6/2012 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > >>> It's a language game. > > >> The word "game" is so fuzzy that this says nothing at all. Game > >> theory is a branch of mathematics. > > > But "language" s

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/6/2012 12:52 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Mar 2012, at 17:53, meekerdb wrote: On 3/6/2012 5:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That specific retrodiction came from Bruno's hypothesis which is that universes are generated by computation. What is computable is much less than all mathematics.

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On Mar 6, 7:07 am, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > Craig, > > The danger to society comes not from mathematicians, rather it could > come from technologists. Yes. I don't think the problem is with mathematicians, it's with hospital administrators, insurance companies, investment banks, attorneys, judges,

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 06 Mar 2012, at 17:32, meekerdb wrote: On 3/6/2012 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It's a language game. The word "game" is so fuzzy that this says nothing at all. Game theory is a branch of mathematics. But "language" says something. It says mathematics is about description. Mat

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 06 Mar 2012, at 17:53, meekerdb wrote: On 3/6/2012 5:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That specific retrodiction came from Bruno's hypothesis which is that universes are generated by computation. What is computable is much less than all mathematics. This is not my hypothesis. It might be

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/6/2012 5:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That specific retrodiction came from Bruno's hypothesis which is that universes are generated by computation. What is computable is much less than all mathematics. This is not my hypothesis. It might be Fredkin or Schmidhuber hypothesis, but not mine.

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/6/2012 4:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It's a language game. The word "game" is so fuzzy that this says nothing at all. Game theory is a branch of mathematics. But "language" says something. It says mathematics is about description. Brent -- You received this message because you are su

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 06 Mar 2012, at 16:40, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 06.03.2012 14:21 Bruno Marchal said the following: On 06 Mar 2012, at 12:22, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Stephen, The life is full of paradoxes. My point was that while philosophers cannot solve apparently simple problems (well, these problems h

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 06.03.2012 14:21 Bruno Marchal said the following: On 06 Mar 2012, at 12:22, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Stephen, The life is full of paradoxes. My point was that while philosophers cannot solve apparently simple problems (well, these problems happen not to be simple), engineers continue doing t

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 06 Mar 2012, at 05:42, meekerdb wrote: On 3/5/2012 8:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:24 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/5/2012 4:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:26 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.03.2012 18

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 06 Mar 2012, at 12:22, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Stephen, The life is full of paradoxes. My point was that while philosophers cannot solve apparently simple problems (well, these problems happen not to be simple), engineers continue doing their business successfully. How they do it? I bel

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 05 Mar 2012, at 19:26, meekerdb wrote: On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.03.2012 18:29 meekerdb said the following: On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: The experiment takes an operational approach to what Pi means. During the initial stage of the experiment mathemat

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

Craig, The danger to society comes not from mathematicians, rather it could come from technologists. Recently I have read Jaron Lanier, You Are Not a Gadget: A Manifesto and the author shows that the society should pay more attention to what Silicon Valley geeks are silently doing. Just one

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 05 Mar 2012, at 19:03, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.03.2012 18:29 meekerdb said the following: On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: The experiment takes an operational approach to what Pi means. During the initial stage of the experiment mathematicians prove the existence of Pi. Whe

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

Stephen, The life is full of paradoxes. My point was that while philosophers cannot solve apparently simple problems (well, these problems happen not to be simple), engineers continue doing their business successfully. How they do it? I believe, exactly this way, they try to understand what t

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/6/2012 06:59, meekerdb wrote: On 3/5/2012 9:34 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:42 PM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 3/5/2012 8:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:24 PM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 3/5/2012 4:57

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/5/2012 9:34 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:42 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 3/5/2012 8:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:24 PM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 3/5/2012 4:57 PM, Jason Resch wr

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 3/5/2012 8:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:24 PM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 3/5/2012 4:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:26 PM, meekerdb wrote: >> >>> On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rud

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/5/2012 8:28 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:24 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 3/5/2012 4:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:26 PM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rudny

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 7:24 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 3/5/2012 4:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:26 PM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: >> >>> On 05.03.2012 18:29 meekerdb said the following: >>> On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudny

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/5/2012 4:57 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:26 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.03.2012 18:29 meekerdb said the following: On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:26 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > >> On 05.03.2012 18:29 meekerdb said the following: >> >>> On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: >>> The experiment takes an operational approach to what Pi means. During the initial st

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/5/2012 10:03 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 05.03.2012 18:29 meekerdb said the following: On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: The experiment takes an operational approach to what Pi means. During the initial stage of the experiment mathematicians prove the existence of Pi. When math

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 05.03.2012 18:29 meekerdb said the following: On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: The experiment takes an operational approach to what Pi means. During the initial stage of the experiment mathematicians prove the existence of Pi. When mathematicians 'prove the existence' of something

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/5/2012 3:23 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: The experiment takes an operational approach to what Pi means. During the initial stage of the experiment mathematicians prove the existence of Pi. When mathematicians 'prove the existence' of something they are just showing that something which satis

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 3/5/2012 7:01 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: John, It is not that bad to say that we do not know something. Yet, it might be even better to specify more accurately what exactly we do not know. Think of your younger colleagues that do chemistry research right now. Chemists have been quite succe

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

John, It is not that bad to say that we do not know something. Yet, it might be even better to specify more accurately what exactly we do not know. Think of your younger colleagues that do chemistry research right now. Chemists have been quite successful and the story continues. The concepts

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

Bruno, Thanks for your comments. You are right. It is necessary to be more accurate with terms. I have read about physicalism on SEP and I see that I do not need mechanism right now. By the way, where I can read about mechanism? I see nothing on SEP. Below is a new version of the problem. I

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On Mar 4, 3:07 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > > I personally still at the position that there are some material objects, > atoms, molecules, crystals, etc., that are independent from the mind. If you assume that the human mind is the only sense in the entire cosmos then there are going to be a lot

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

I understand your logic but then immediately comes a question where mathematics objects exist. In this case Bruno is consistent when he says that everything is formed from the mathematical objects in Platonia. Do you mean the same? I personally still at the position that there are some materia

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 04 Mar 2012, at 17:12, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Bruno, Actually it is not a joke. I guess it is my first step toward Platonia. As I am a chemist by background, the problem might be not mathematically correct indeed. Yet, if you could help, we could improve it in this respect. The backg

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

There is an important distinction between the names and notations of mathematics and the objects of study of mathematics. I believe the former are inventions of humans while the latter exist independently of mankind. For example, I am saying that the symbol 0 is an invention of mankind but what is

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

Bruno, Actually it is not a joke. I guess it is my first step toward Platonia. As I am a chemist by background, the problem might be not mathematically correct indeed. Yet, if you could help, we could improve it in this respect. The background is as follows. I am a chemist and I am still at t

Re: Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

On 04 Mar 2012, at 13:27, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: An experiment to perform in order to prove experimentally whether Pi exists independently from the mind The idea came during discussion on embryophysics list http://groups.google.com/group/embryophysics/t/419d3c1fec30e3b5 Below there is a des

Two Mathematicians in a Bunker and Existence of Pi

An experiment to perform in order to prove experimentally whether Pi exists independently from the mind The idea came during discussion on embryophysics list http://groups.google.com/group/embryophysics/t/419d3c1fec30e3b5 Below there is a description of the experiment that one could think of