[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[L B Shriver]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:

major snip
 
> > Many decades of conditioning have to be overcome in order to see
> this. It is a painful 
> > process. Not everyone wants to do it. No problem. Life is short, but
> time will sort this 
> > question out for future historians.
> > 
> > L B S
> >
> We'll just have to agree to disagree then. The agument that you put
> forward sounds like a variation of the "It's too subtle for you to see
> " argument that the TMO uses all the time. I have a hard time
> digesting that one anymore. Each polarity inspires and invigorates
> it's opposite and can't survive with out it. A new balance will come
> out of the extremes of left and right, or maybe we'll transcend. ;)
> The blogosphere and talk radio are now readjusting the mainstream
> media and the public will be better informed because of it.
> 
> JohnY
>


I don't mind disagreeing on this issue, nor do I assume I have the Ultimate 
Truth about it.

However, I don't think the argument I am advancing is the "too subtle for you 
to see" 
argument. First of all, I know from your posts that that you are intelligent, 
thoughtful, and 
well-educated. You are not lacking for subtlety.

The real issue is not the subtlety of the conditioning but its pervasiveness. 
Although 
subtle forms of social conditioning are found in this society, most forms are 
actually 
rather crude and heavy-handed. It's just that we have become used to them.

Seeing this does require insight, however, it's the insight  that comes from 
sustained study 
and research, in my opinion. I  have studied the media for more than 40 years, 
during 
which time I have also been an observer-participant and seen first-hand some of 
the 
discrepencies between what happens and what gets reported.

Furthermore, I have conducted due diligence regarding the rebuttals to the 
"radical" 
framework I have been exploring, and I have generally found them to be 
reflexive and 
superficial in the general public and zealous partisanry in the power structure.

Nevertheless, it took a LONG TIME for me to accept the conclusions which 
suggested 
themselves. I still debate within myself on an almost daily basis as to where 
the boundary 
lies between the reality I was socialized into and the reality I discovered 
later.

That someone could conscientiously disagree with me does not surprise or upset. 
What I 
am expressing is, after all, a point of view; I express mine, you express 
yours. It is the 
nature of my point of view, however, to feel at this time that it is more in 
the nature of a 
responsibility to speak up than an option.

Ciao,

L B S








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > Now it is 
> > > > > > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the
> > world is 
> > > > > > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > > > > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and
painful. 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO
to be a 
> > > > > > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it
> > than for 
> > > > > > the TMO of the Merv days.
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't know.  I pretty much prefer the "Merv days".  Today, MMY
> > and 
> > > > > the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and
Bechtel
> > > > > and FoxNews.
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the
TMO with
> > > > disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually
> > > > another media myth.
> > > > 
> > > > JohnY
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Needless to say, I do not expect or require people to agree with
> > everything I post. 
> > > 
> > > With respect to the "media myth", I think you have it exactly
> > backwards. USA as the bastion 
> > > of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who
> > owns the media to 
> > > understand how this could be the case.
> > > 
> > > Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal.
> > It has particularly 
> > > floated to the surface with the current administration,
coincidentally. 
> > > 
> > > The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the
> > subvesion of foreign 
> > > governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored
> > in the mainstream 
> > > media.
> > > 
> > > More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections and
> > the subversions of 
> > > our civil liberties are merely the more recent and obvious
> > indicators of corporate fascism.
> > > 
> > > Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see
> > us as naive 
> > > barbarians.
> > > 
> > > Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it.
> > Those in the early stages 
> > > of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened.
> > > 
> > > L B S
> > >
> >  Nothing complicated, I just think that on the whole the US has been
> > more a positive than a negative force in world affairs and the 'evil'
> > America thing is perpetuated by a press with an agenda of it's own.
> >   
> >   Those 'experienced' Europeans have had their collective bacon pulled
> > from the fire by US barbarians quite a few times. And like Maharishi
> > are rather ungrateful about it too, when it suits their purposes.  As
> > far as the TMO is concerned we're only a little evil but our cash is
> > quite good. 
> > 
> > JohnY
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I must politely disagree. The "press" rarely touches upon the
inner dynamics of 
> history or current events, and has in fact been skillfully
manipulated to preserve the myth 
> of Noble America. It takes time to put together a more accurate
history and reading of 
> current events, and one must draw on many sources that "mainstream
Americans" almost 
> never consult.
> 
> What has happened within the past few years is just that the current
administration has 
> exacerbated the deeply-rooted fascist trends within this country and
made it harder to 
> deny them.
> 
> Many decades of conditioning have to be overcome in order to see
this. It is a painful 
> process. Not everyone wants to do it. No problem. Life is short, but
time will sort this 
> question out for future historians.
> 
> L B S
>
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. The agument that you put
forward sounds like a variation of the "It's too subtle for you to see
" argument that the TMO uses all the time. I have a hard time
digesting that one anymore. Each polarity inspires and invigorates
it's opposite and can't survive with out it. A new balance will come
out of the extremes of left and right, or maybe we'll transcend. ;)
The blogosphere and talk radio are now readjusting the mainstream
media and the public will be better informed because of it.

JohnY


 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[braaahmaan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Again, I must politely disagree. The "press" rarely touches upon the
inner dynamics of 
> history or current events, and has in fact been skillfully
manipulated to preserve the myth 
> of Noble America. It takes time to put together a more accurate
history and reading of 
> current events, and one must draw on many sources that "mainstream
Americans" almost 
> never consult.

Someone posted the Nobel Prize for Literature Speech by the current or
recent winner. A lot of it focussed on the Reagan supported Qantra war
against the democratically elected Sandanistas in Nicuragua. It
prompted me to do some additioanl reading. Though this period occurred
during my adulthood, I was busy with career at the time and only had a
bit of a summary view of it all. When you dig into it, its pretty
repulsive.

 
> What has happened within the past few years is just that the current
administration has 
> exacerbated the deeply-rooted fascist trends within this country and
made it harder to 
> deny them.

While I have perhaps a stricter def of fascism than you, and may
quibble on the use of that word as the best word, I agree that the
manipulation, spin, control of news in this adminsitration has sunk t
new lows. But a big part of the problem is not the white house, not
corporate concentaration of media, but the "press" it self. Its
astounding and scary how Judy Miller almost single handly, blindly,
dupely, took us to war in Iraq. (yes thats an exageration, but a case
could be made that absent judy miller, the us may not have had the
support to invade iraq.) Where the F was management at the NYTs?

And your point of 50% americans thinking that Saddam blew up the
towers is shocking. And to think that after the debacle of Iraq, the
clear lies or incompetance that lead us their (WMD), the inept post
invasion managment, the illiterate and barely verbal nature of the
president -- that the american public could re-elect him is
mind-blowing. But then again, in just a year, the public has caught on
and his popularity is in the 30's. 


> Many decades of conditioning have to be overcome in order to see this. 

Its true, I beleive, that the American myth is taught and
indoctrinated in k1-12 texts and classes. At least it was when i grew
up, was when my niece was in school, and I suspect it still is - but
perhaps some progress has been made. Though "Intellignet Design" makes
you wonder. 

KH posted some articles by a great "realist" historian (Howard Zinn)--
with popular books suitable for HS. But lamented its hard to teach
"real" stuff, because so much of the myth is part of the indoctrinated
and dogmatic ciriculum. 

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

And one of the oddest and IMO funny, tho scary things is that media in
the us is generally a US news org. By definition its an oxymoron. Its
not reporting the "real" news, it reporting how OUR troops are doing,
etc. How can you objectively report a conflict if you take sides from
the outset.

It is a painful 
> process. Not everyone wants to do it. No problem. Life is short, but
time will sort this 
> question out for future historians.

I think things could tip either way -- at least for a while. But per
prior post, I am cautiously optimistic.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[L B Shriver]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > Now it is 
> > > > > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the
> world is 
> > > > > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > > > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> > > > > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it
> than for 
> > > > > the TMO of the Merv days.
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know.  I pretty much prefer the "Merv days".  Today, MMY
> and 
> > > > the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel
> > > > and FoxNews.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the TMO with
> > > disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually
> > > another media myth.
> > > 
> > > JohnY
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > Needless to say, I do not expect or require people to agree with
> everything I post. 
> > 
> > With respect to the "media myth", I think you have it exactly
> backwards. USA as the bastion 
> > of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who
> owns the media to 
> > understand how this could be the case.
> > 
> > Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal.
> It has particularly 
> > floated to the surface with the current administration, coincidentally. 
> > 
> > The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the
> subvesion of foreign 
> > governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored
> in the mainstream 
> > media.
> > 
> > More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections and
> the subversions of 
> > our civil liberties are merely the more recent and obvious
> indicators of corporate fascism.
> > 
> > Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see
> us as naive 
> > barbarians.
> > 
> > Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it.
> Those in the early stages 
> > of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened.
> > 
> > L B S
> >
>  Nothing complicated, I just think that on the whole the US has been
> more a positive than a negative force in world affairs and the 'evil'
> America thing is perpetuated by a press with an agenda of it's own.
>   
>   Those 'experienced' Europeans have had their collective bacon pulled
> from the fire by US barbarians quite a few times. And like Maharishi
> are rather ungrateful about it too, when it suits their purposes.  As
> far as the TMO is concerned we're only a little evil but our cash is
> quite good. 
> 
> JohnY



Again, I must politely disagree. The "press" rarely touches upon the inner 
dynamics of 
history or current events, and has in fact been skillfully manipulated to 
preserve the myth 
of Noble America. It takes time to put together a more accurate history and 
reading of 
current events, and one must draw on many sources that "mainstream Americans" 
almost 
never consult.

What has happened within the past few years is just that the current 
administration has 
exacerbated the deeply-rooted fascist trends within this country and made it 
harder to 
deny them.

Many decades of conditioning have to be overcome in order to see this. It is a 
painful 
process. Not everyone wants to do it. No problem. Life is short, but time will 
sort this 
question out for future historians.

L B S





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > > > [...]
> > > > Now it is 
> > > > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the
world is 
> > > > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> > > > 
> > > > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> > > > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it
than for 
> > > > the TMO of the Merv days.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > I don't know.  I pretty much prefer the "Merv days".  Today, MMY
and 
> > > the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel
> > > and FoxNews.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the TMO with
> > disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually
> > another media myth.
> > 
> > JohnY
> >
> 
> 
> Needless to say, I do not expect or require people to agree with
everything I post. 
> 
> With respect to the "media myth", I think you have it exactly
backwards. USA as the bastion 
> of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who
owns the media to 
> understand how this could be the case.
> 
> Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal.
It has particularly 
> floated to the surface with the current administration, coincidentally. 
> 
> The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the
subvesion of foreign 
> governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored
in the mainstream 
> media.
> 
> More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections and
the subversions of 
> our civil liberties are merely the more recent and obvious
indicators of corporate fascism.
> 
> Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see
us as naive 
> barbarians.
> 
> Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it.
Those in the early stages 
> of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened.
> 
> L B S
>
 Nothing complicated, I just think that on the whole the US has been
more a positive than a negative force in world affairs and the 'evil'
America thing is perpetuated by a press with an agenda of it's own.
  
  Those 'experienced' Europeans have had their collective bacon pulled
from the fire by US barbarians quite a few times. And like Maharishi
are rather ungrateful about it too, when it suits their purposes.  As
far as the TMO is concerned we're only a little evil but our cash is
quite good. 

JohnY

   





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[bbrigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the input, Bobananda. Although I don't agree with the 
specifics of yugas, etc, I 
> accept the principle that these are dark times. However, I don't 
have a clue what can be 
> expected—or not.
> 
> L B S
> 

**

And neither does MMY (as he admits when he says it could be hundreds 
of centuries before Vedic civilization is restored to India), not 
because he is incompetent, but because beings, human and higher, 
have complete freedom of action, so anything can always happen. 
God/Nature can always only discourage people from bad behavior and 
lowlife with punitive reactions to such behavior, but people can 
always choose to live worse rather than better (and it is only from 
the platform of expanded awareness that it is possible to live 
better).



> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > > > [...]
> > > > Now it is 
> > > > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the 
> > world is 
> > > > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and 
painful. 
> > > > 
> > > > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to 
be a 
> > > > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it 
than 
> > for 
> > > > the TMO of the Merv days.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I would be interested to know your criteria for evaluating 
your 
> > position. Specifically:
> > > 
> > > How will you know if you are correct in your belief in the 
> > Movement's immanent success?
> > > 
> > > How will you know if you are mistaken?
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Do you have a "time line" in mind by which a judgement could 
be 
> > made?
> > > 
> > > L B S
> > >
> > 
> > **
> > 
> > The movement (towards expansion of happiness, the purpose of 
> > creation) is always successful, even if, as MMY said earler 
year, it 
> > may take "hundreds of centuries" -- we're 51 centuries into the 
> > Kaliyuga, the dismal 10% of the eternal Yuga cycle, so at most 
it 
> > will be another 4269 centuries until life on earth is not 
> > characterized by chaos, a mere drop in the bucket of cosmic (or 
even 
> > geologic) time:
> > 
> > At one hour and 30 minutes into the 23Mar2005 press conference at
> > mou.org, Maharishi says that it may take centuries for the 
pundits
> > to restore Vedic civilization in India: 
> > http://streaming.mou.org/MOU/Mar/wnews_23mar2005prt1_128
> > (the following week MMY said it may be "hundreds of centuries."
> >
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Dec 20, 2005, at 11:20 AM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > "Immanent?"
> >
> > Please clarify what you mean by calling it "immanent."
> 
> Try "imminent". As in "about to happen."
> 
> ?
>

OK, that's easy. There's cash handy, and they are spending it on new 
centers, or so it seems. There's true believers with enough money to 
become recerted and some with enough money to become rajahs. There's 
funding available in the form of low-cost loans (a REALLY nice feather, 
IMHO, in the TMO's cap), and highest-level government funding for long-
term research on TM's effects on kids and adults.

These aren't the signs of a fad, as were the massive initiations during 
the Merv days, but of a mature, socially acceptable practice.

And people get upset about silly hats.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > > [...]
> > > Now it is 
> > > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the 
world is 
> > > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> > > 
> > > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be 
a 
> > > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it 
than for 
> > > the TMO of the Merv days.
> > >
> > 
> > I don't know.  I pretty much prefer the "Merv days".  Today, MMY 
and 
> > the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and 
Bechtel
> > and FoxNews.
> >
> 
> 
> I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the TMO 
with
> disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually
> another media myth.
> 
> JohnY
>

The government is the innocent reflection of the consciousness of the 
people...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[L B Shriver]

Thanks for the input, Bobananda. Although I don't agree with the specifics of 
yugas, etc, I 
accept the principle that these are dark times. However, I don't have a clue 
what can be 
expected—or not.

L B S

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > > [...]
> > > Now it is 
> > > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the 
> world is 
> > > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> > > 
> > > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> > > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than 
> for 
> > > the TMO of the Merv days.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > I would be interested to know your criteria for evaluating your 
> position. Specifically:
> > 
> > How will you know if you are correct in your belief in the 
> Movement's immanent success?
> > 
> > How will you know if you are mistaken?
> > 
> 
> 
> > Do you have a "time line" in mind by which a judgement could be 
> made?
> > 
> > L B S
> >
> 
> **
> 
> The movement (towards expansion of happiness, the purpose of 
> creation) is always successful, even if, as MMY said earler year, it 
> may take "hundreds of centuries" -- we're 51 centuries into the 
> Kaliyuga, the dismal 10% of the eternal Yuga cycle, so at most it 
> will be another 4269 centuries until life on earth is not 
> characterized by chaos, a mere drop in the bucket of cosmic (or even 
> geologic) time:
> 
> At one hour and 30 minutes into the 23Mar2005 press conference at
> mou.org, Maharishi says that it may take centuries for the pundits
> to restore Vedic civilization in India: 
> http://streaming.mou.org/MOU/Mar/wnews_23mar2005prt1_128
> (the following week MMY said it may be "hundreds of centuries."
>







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[bbrigante]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > [...]
> > Now it is 
> > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the 
world is 
> > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> > 
> > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than 
for 
> > the TMO of the Merv days.
> >
> 
> 
> I would be interested to know your criteria for evaluating your 
position. Specifically:
> 
> How will you know if you are correct in your belief in the 
Movement's immanent success?
> 
> How will you know if you are mistaken?
> 


> Do you have a "time line" in mind by which a judgement could be 
made?
> 
> L B S
>

**

The movement (towards expansion of happiness, the purpose of 
creation) is always successful, even if, as MMY said earler year, it 
may take "hundreds of centuries" -- we're 51 centuries into the 
Kaliyuga, the dismal 10% of the eternal Yuga cycle, so at most it 
will be another 4269 centuries until life on earth is not 
characterized by chaos, a mere drop in the bucket of cosmic (or even 
geologic) time:

At one hour and 30 minutes into the 23Mar2005 press conference at
mou.org, Maharishi says that it may take centuries for the pundits
to restore Vedic civilization in India: 
http://streaming.mou.org/MOU/Mar/wnews_23mar2005prt1_128
(the following week MMY said it may be "hundreds of centuries."












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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[L B Shriver]

Response below.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> Valid observations, but there are a number of emerging factors that
> provide a counter force, or a new direction.  
>  
> > With respect to the "media myth", I think you have it exactly
> backwards. USA as the bastion 
> > of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who
> owns the media to 
> > understand how this could be the case.
> 
> Blogs. Podcasting and Internet radio -- huge diversity of independent
> news sources -- and cheap production giving the "pen" to the masses.
> Diversity of cable news and print media sources, including from
> overseaas. Indie films. Garage recording studios with internet
> distribution. "Affordable" Hi-Def video-cams allowing professional
> video, along with internet distribution. WiFi everywhere.
> 
>  
> > Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal.
> It has particularly 
> > floated to the surface with the current administration, coincidentally. 
> 
> And in 2008 Biden, Clinton, McCain or Guillardi copuld be president
> which will at least modify those views. 
>  
> > The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the
> subvesion of foreign 
> > governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored
> in the mainstream 
> > media.
> 
> See above media comments. I am learning much more of the above from
> the above above.
>  
> > More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections 
> 
> ultimately, technology will get it right, virtualy elimintng he crap
> of the past two elections.
> 
> > and the subversions of 
> > our civil liberties 
> 
> Seantors just stood down the Patriot Act extension.
> 
> > are merely the more recent and obvious indicators of corporate fascism.
> 
> Read Tom Friedman's The World is Fat. I mean Flat. Corporate power is
> becoming increadibly diffused, distributed around the globe. 
>  
> > Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see
> us as naive 
> > barbarians.
> 
> And South Africans hate the Dutch
>  
> > Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it. 
> 
> See above media comments. It is a powerful force to change awareness.
> 
> Those in the early stages 
> > of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened.
> 
> And yet all of the above developments are reason for optimism and joy.
>



As usual, you have raised many excellent points, particularly about the web, 
blogs, etc.

Pressing responsibilities require brevity in reply, but:

Despite information alternatives to the Mainstream Media, it's good to remember 
that as 
many as 2/3 of Americans may still believe, as they did when the war began, 
that Saddam 
was involved in the 9/11 event. I'm sure you have examples of your own.

Public perception, moreover, is still dominated by the MM, not the alternatives.

Recent victories for the Good Guys have been in the skirmish category. It's too 
early to say 
the tide has turned, and we don't know what the future will bring.

Like any good Taoist, I know that history is cyclic, etc, and the darkest hour 
is just before 
the dawn. Like any realistic observe of current events, however, I don't really 
know if this is 
the darkest hour. Maybe it's only midnight.

Thanks again for your points.

L B S







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[braaahmaan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

Valid observations, but there are a number of emerging factors that
provide a counter force, or a new direction.  
 
> With respect to the "media myth", I think you have it exactly
backwards. USA as the bastion 
> of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who
owns the media to 
> understand how this could be the case.

Blogs. Podcasting and Internet radio -- huge diversity of independent
news sources -- and cheap production giving the "pen" to the masses.
Diversity of cable news and print media sources, including from
overseaas. Indie films. Garage recording studios with internet
distribution. "Affordable" Hi-Def video-cams allowing professional
video, along with internet distribution. WiFi everywhere.

 
> Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal.
It has particularly 
> floated to the surface with the current administration, coincidentally. 

And in 2008 Biden, Clinton, McCain or Guillardi copuld be president
which will at least modify those views. 
 
> The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the
subvesion of foreign 
> governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored
in the mainstream 
> media.

See above media comments. I am learning much more of the above from
the above above.
 
> More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections 

ultimately, technology will get it right, virtualy elimintng he crap
of the past two elections.

> and the subversions of 
> our civil liberties 

Seantors just stood down the Patriot Act extension.

> are merely the more recent and obvious indicators of corporate fascism.

Read Tom Friedman's The World is Fat. I mean Flat. Corporate power is
becoming increadibly diffused, distributed around the globe. 
 
> Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see
us as naive 
> barbarians.

And South Africans hate the Dutch
 
> Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it. 

See above media comments. It is a powerful force to change awareness.

Those in the early stages 
> of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened.

And yet all of the above developments are reason for optimism and joy. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[L B Shriver]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:12 PM, L B Shriver wrote:
> 
> > More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections and  
> > the subversions of
> > our civil liberties are merely the more recent and obvious  
> > indicators of corporate fascism.
> 
> Even that idea's been around a long time:
> 
> "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the  
> growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their  
> democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership  
> of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling  
> private power. "
> 
> Franklin D. Roosevelt



The idea has been around, but not as a description of US. It has always been 
the thing 
that, Thank God, we are NOT.

L B S







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[Vaj]

On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:12 PM, L B Shriver wrote:More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections and the subversions of  our civil liberties are merely the more recent and obvious indicators of corporate fascism. Even that idea's been around a long time:"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it comes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. "Franklin D. Roosevelt 





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[Rick Archer]

on 12/20/05 12:01 PM, L B Shriver at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>> Thanks- The really interesting thing I see too are the kids I know
>> these days. Very grounded and centered for the most part, as if
>> someone saw this coming and prepared for it...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get around much these days, but there are a lot like that in
> Fairfield.

You should have seen 15-year-old Devala Rees read two poems at his
step-dad's (Steve Briggs') presentation last night. Extraordinarily profound
clear deep insights and writing. That kid is going places.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[L B Shriver]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > > [...]
> > > Now it is 
> > > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is 
> > > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> > > 
> > > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> > > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for 
> > > the TMO of the Merv days.
> > >
> > 
> > I don't know.  I pretty much prefer the "Merv days".  Today, MMY and 
> > the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel
> > and FoxNews.
> >
> 
> 
> I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the TMO with
> disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually
> another media myth.
> 
> JohnY
>


Needless to say, I do not expect or require people to agree with everything I 
post. 

With respect to the "media myth", I think you have it exactly backwards. USA as 
the bastion 
of freedom and democracy is the media myth. One has only to see who owns the 
media to 
understand how this could be the case.

Outside the USA, the Evil Empire view is currently almost universal. It has 
particularly 
floated to the surface with the current administration, coincidentally. 

The history of military adventurism and economic exploitation, the subvesion of 
foreign 
governments, etc, is well established, but it NOT generally explored in the 
mainstream 
media.

More blatant recent developments regarding fraudulent elections and the 
subversions of 
our civil liberties are merely the more recent and obvious indicators of 
corporate fascism.

Europeans, having had more experience with these things, tend to see us as 
naive 
barbarians.

Most Americans, on the other hand, tend to be in denial about it. Those in the 
early stages 
of owning it tend to be angry and/or frightened.

L B S





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[L B Shriver]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > huge snip
> > 
> > > 
> > > So, on the one hand, in answer to our deepest collective desire, 
> we 
> > > have created a regional, national and global reality that 
> changes 
> > > nearly instantly, reflecting our momentary fulfillments. On the 
> > > other hand, there is an escalating need for us to not get caught 
> in 
> > > the vortex.
> > > 
> > > We were given mantras years ago in order to clarify and realize 
> our 
> > > desires. We were given sutras to stir up and dissolve the mud. 
> Now 
> > > the challenge is, given our mantras and sutras, how can we build 
> a 
> > > perfectly unshakeable edifice for ourselves?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Nice summary and conclusions.
> > 
> > L B S
> >
> Thanks- The really interesting thing I see too are the kids I know 
> these days. Very grounded and centered for the most part, as if 
> someone saw this coming and prepared for it...



I don't get around much these days, but there are a lot like that in Fairfield.

L B S






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > [...]
> > Now it is 
> > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is 
> > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> > 
> > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for 
> > the TMO of the Merv days.
> >
> 
> I don't know.  I pretty much prefer the "Merv days".  Today, MMY and 
> the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel
> and FoxNews.
>


I was following LB until he equated disillusionment with the TMO with
disillusionment with 'evil' USA. I think 'evil' USA is actually
another media myth.

JohnY 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> huge snip
> 
> > 
> > So, on the one hand, in answer to our deepest collective desire, 
we 
> > have created a regional, national and global reality that 
changes 
> > nearly instantly, reflecting our momentary fulfillments. On the 
> > other hand, there is an escalating need for us to not get caught 
in 
> > the vortex.
> > 
> > We were given mantras years ago in order to clarify and realize 
our 
> > desires. We were given sutras to stir up and dissolve the mud. 
Now 
> > the challenge is, given our mantras and sutras, how can we build 
a 
> > perfectly unshakeable edifice for ourselves?
> 
> 
> 
> Nice summary and conclusions.
> 
> L B S
>
Thanks- The really interesting thing I see too are the kids I know 
these days. Very grounded and centered for the most part, as if 
someone saw this coming and prepared for it...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[L B Shriver]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


huge snip

> 
> So, on the one hand, in answer to our deepest collective desire, we 
> have created a regional, national and global reality that changes 
> nearly instantly, reflecting our momentary fulfillments. On the 
> other hand, there is an escalating need for us to not get caught in 
> the vortex.
> 
> We were given mantras years ago in order to clarify and realize our 
> desires. We were given sutras to stir up and dissolve the mud. Now 
> the challenge is, given our mantras and sutras, how can we build a 
> perfectly unshakeable edifice for ourselves?



Nice summary and conclusions.

L B S






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[Vaj]

On Dec 20, 2005, at 11:20 AM, sparaig wrote:"Immanent?"  Please clarify what you mean by calling it "immanent." Try "imminent". As in "about to happen."?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  I have reached a similar conclusion myself. This is how I have 
conceptualized it:
> 
> Most of us Movement "lifers" (NOT to be confused with Fairfield 
Lifers, although there is 
> significant overlap between sets; "lifer" is used here as it's 
used elsewhere, in cases where 
> one joins up—or is committed—for "life", ie the remainder of one's 
days)—most Movement 
> lifers who are also Americans are facing not just one, but two 
huge disappointments. 
> 
> Of those who held out highest hopes for the Movement, I am 
guessing most (except True 
> Believers) are disappointed. For those who were idealistic and 
committed, joining the 
> Movement meant that one had become one of the elect few who were 
going to save the 
> world. Literally. I know it sounds silly now, but that is what 
many of us believed. Now it is 
> difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is 
being "saved". So the Dream 
> is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
[Yes, I know that some of 
> you who read this were too smart to be taken in and are 
saying "What disappointment?", 
> but in this instance I am addressing the fate of those who truly 
believed. And we were 
> many.]
> 
> At the same time, many are discovering that their deeply ingrained 
concepts about 
> America (US of A) were likewise illusionary. What we had thought 
to be the land of the free 
> and the home of the brave has turned out to be the Evil Empire. 
Not only is the world not 
> being saved, but we are the ones who are fucking it up.
> 
> Either one of these disappointments by itself could prove quite 
painful, but both at once 
> is, for some people, simply to painful to bear. Not only that, but 
our fundamental 
> paradigms have been so brutally shaken that it's difficult to see 
where the crumbling of 
> reality will end. Hence the fear.  Hence the denial. And the anger.
> 
> So I agree with your observation. The general state of mental 
health in this country is not 
> very good, nor among TM people, either. The stress levels are very 
high. People are 
> literally out of control, as witness much of what happens in this 
very forum.
> 
> I would add one point. There is no logical answer to this dilemma. 
Awakening, which is 
> NOT a logical answer, but a change of awareness, does nothing to 
the dilemma as such, 
> but at least releases the awakened from the suffering.
> 


This reminded me of two things I recall "Mr. M" saying awhile back:

1. During the coming Age of Enlightenment, the normal state of 
consciousness would be Cosmic Consciousness. At the time I pretty 
much interpreted that to mean that we would all float around like 
angels in paradise on earth.

2. He also said that it is better not to stir up the mud around the 
lotus, or something close to that... At the time, I knew what he 
meant conceptually, and somewhat on a personal level.

Put these two remarks of his together, and voila! Present day 
reality! What I now see, along with everyone else, is that all of 
our external foundations are in the process of rapidly being 
destroyed; political, economic, and social. 

Careers are in constant upheaval, governments come and go, wars 
flare up at the drop of a hat, social conventions are challenged 
constantly. Very much a sink or swim reality.

And at the same time, we are all 50 inch screen, hi-def, 300 channel 
surround sound spectators to it all; cable, blogs, leaked documents, 
secret programs exposed, he said she said, internet cell phone 
reality everywhere.

So, on the one hand, in answer to our deepest collective desire, we 
have created a regional, national and global reality that changes 
nearly instantly, reflecting our momentary fulfillments. On the 
other hand, there is an escalating need for us to not get caught in 
the vortex.

We were given mantras years ago in order to clarify and realize our 
desires. We were given sutras to stir up and dissolve the mud. Now 
the challenge is, given our mantras and sutras, how can we build a 
perfectly unshakeable edifice for ourselves?  
 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[braaahmaan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> [...]
> Now it is 
> > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is 
> being "saved". So the Dream 
> > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> 
> I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for 
> the TMO of the Merv days.

You have to "read" what Barry is really trying to say: 

Barry finds it difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that
his life hs any meaning or that he has made any authentic spiritual
progress. So the Dream is Over, and the disappointment for Barry is
huge and painful. 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > [...]
> > Now it is 
> > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world 
is 
> > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> > 
> > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than 
for 
> > the TMO of the Merv days.
> >
> 
> 
> I would be interested to know your criteria for evaluating your 
position. Specifically:
> 
> How will you know if you are correct in your belief in the 
Movement's immanent success?

"Immanent?"

Please clarify what you mean by calling it "immanent."

> 
> How will you know if you are mistaken?

About what? Having more expectations? Finding wonder in it? 

> 
> Do you have a "time line" in mind by which a judgement could be 
made?



Ah, you want me to define what success will be like. How about: not 
only making TM available, but making it mainstream enough that people 
might actually want to try it, even if (or perhaps, especially 
because) it costs a lot? How about actually building buildings for a 
permanent organization, and filling them with reasonably competent 
people?

And let us not forget the funny hats. Can't have a viable 
organization without funny hats.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[L B Shriver]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> [...]
> Now it is 
> > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is 
> being "saved". So the Dream 
> > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> 
> I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for 
> the TMO of the Merv days.
>


I would be interested to know your criteria for evaluating your position. 
Specifically:

How will you know if you are correct in your belief in the Movement's immanent 
success?

How will you know if you are mistaken?

Do you have a "time line" in mind by which a judgement could be made?

L B S







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ultrarishi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > [...]
> > Now it is 
> > > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world 
is 
> > being "saved". So the Dream 
> > > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> > 
> > I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> > wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than 
for 
> > the TMO of the Merv days.
> >
> 
> I don't know.  I pretty much prefer the "Merv days".  Today, MMY 
and 
> the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel
> and FoxNews.
>

If only. I mean, Fox SELLS man...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[ultrarishi]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> [...]
> Now it is 
> > difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is 
> being "saved". So the Dream 
> > is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 
> 
> I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
> wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for 
> the TMO of the Merv days.
>

I don't know.  I pretty much prefer the "Merv days".  Today, MMY and 
the TMO seem more like Jimmy Swaggart and Pat Robertson and Bechtel
and FoxNews.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
[...]
Now it is 
> difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is 
being "saved". So the Dream 
> is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. 

I must be truely insane. I find the New and Improved TMO to be a 
wonderous thing and genuinely have more expectations for it than for 
the TMO of the Merv days.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[Peter]

--- Tom Pall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- L B Shriver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > A few weeks ago, Tom Pall genuinely apologized
> for
> > > one of his posts to Dr Pete, 
> > > spontaneously and almost immediately after
> sending
> > > it. 
> > 
> > You know, I didn't catch that post and I'm sorry I
> > didn't see it.  I also should apologize for Tom
> for
> > making a wise-ass crack at his expense. It was
> funny,
> > but at his expense. So, perhaps time to forgive
> all
> > around. 
> 
> But you didn't and you haven't and you have no
> intention to.  Perhaps
> you can apogize in Rick's next weekly FFL group
> incarnation.
> Time to have FFL deleted and every attempt Rick
> makes of reviving look
> like the Myth of Sysiphys. 

Tom, I apologize to you for the emotional pain my was
ass quip created in you. If I had known it was going
to bother you so much, I never would have said it. You
keep on dragging this thing out. Akasha and I go at it
for a while and then we both just give up. We don't
try to detroy everything around us.


 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[Vaj]

On Dec 20, 2005, at 12:46 AM, braaahmaan wrote:Those proclaiming great advaida-speak in one post, then totally contradicting it in the next post, is questionable.  Yes, but Brahman is inclusive of opposite doncha know! :-/





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[Tom Pall]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- L B Shriver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > A few weeks ago, Tom Pall genuinely apologized for
> > one of his posts to Dr Pete, 
> > spontaneously and almost immediately after sending
> > it. 
> 
> You know, I didn't catch that post and I'm sorry I
> didn't see it.  I also should apologize for Tom for
> making a wise-ass crack at his expense. It was funny,
> but at his expense. So, perhaps time to forgive all
> around. 

But you didn't and you haven't and you have no intention to.  Perhaps
you can apogize in Rick's next weekly FFL group incarnation.
Time to have FFL deleted and every attempt Rick makes of reviving look
like the Myth of Sysiphys.  





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not"

[braaahmaan]

Thank you Yoda for the thoughtful communique from the Force.
Your Brahmanic messages are becoming more and more coherent to us
lower vibration beings. And relvenat. Keep up the good dharamic work. 

your servant, in service

braaahmaan



 


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
"tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dr Pete writes:
> Tom, in all seriousness, have you tried SSRS's
> Sudarshan Kriya? It blows out some pretty deep
> impressions in the ol' chitta.
> 
> Tom T:
> Not my issue but a friends. I have been his conduit to work through
> much of his stuff. I did not know the details until recently when he
> shared the stuff about toxic rage. I didn't think too many people here
> were familiar with that understanding. When he told me, a lot of
> pieces of a lot of behavior I had observed clicked into place. It
> seemed reasonable to share that insight. Tom T
> PS my friend is not in a safe enough place yet to encourage him to
> open the doors too far, too fast.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[braaahmaan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > on 12/19/05 10:36 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > > They can't really *admit* the lack of progress,
> > > because that would be "off the program" and would make it
> > > sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and
> > > tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack
> > > of progress.  ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and
> > > talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of
> > > enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal
> > > and everyday in a real happening tradition.  The people
> > > hearing this often get really, really, really, really
> > > PISSED OFF. 
> > 
> > I can attest to this bit, here in FF. Some people get really upset
> at the
> > suggestion that people around town might actually be enlightened, or
> Awake,
> > or whatever you want to call it. It threatens their belief structure.
> > Probably because these so-called enlightened people seem so ordinary.
> >
> 
> That's why they are pejoritively labeled 'so-called enlightened'. (We
> wouldn't want people actually getting enlightened, now would we...)
> 
> JohnY

Enlightened is wonderful. 

Brahman clones and proclamants, more dour, angry and depressed than
Max van Sydow in all his Imgmar Bergman films, is questionable. 

One who shouts down inquisitors, calls them frauds and liars,  and to
"suck eggs" is questionable, 

Those proclaiming great advaida-speak in one post, then totally
contradicting it in the next post, is questionable. 

One proclaiming "No ego, No I" and yet is uber-sensitive to perceived
(not actual) insults, is questionable.

One proclaiming total and eternal liberation, and total support of
nature, who is entrapped in dogma, is questionable.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[braaahmaan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- L B Shriver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > A few weeks ago, Tom Pall genuinely apologized for
> > one of his posts to Dr Pete, 
> > spontaneously and almost immediately after sending
> > it. 
> 
> You know, I didn't catch that post and I'm sorry I
> didn't see it.  I also should apologize for Tom for
> making a wise-ass crack at his expense. 


Props to Dr. Pete for an apology.

> It was funny,

To you. Perhaps only you. I found your omments / humor repuslsive. 

> but at his expense. So, perhaps time to forgive all
> around. 

Yes. Always a good direction. And support for you continuing further
in that direction. Your original comment caused a lot of disruption
and pain. Justified or not. An after the fact apology, a good first
step, is just one step in resolving the cascade of hate and
retribution that your posts/ aka so called humor , invoked. Good first
step, but you need to dig deeper.




> > 
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the 
> > > majority of active posters) perceiving one partic-
> > > ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive
> > > because of that anger, suddenly "clicked" for me
> > > this afternoon.  I had known that it reminded me
> > > of something, but I had not been able to figure 
> > > out *what* it reminded me of.
> > > 
> > > Bingo!  Got it.  It reminded me of visiting
> > America
> > > recently, my first trip back in over two and a
> > half
> > > years.
> > > 
> > > Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a
> > while,
> > > and are just re-entering it, you really aren't
> > going
> > > to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact
> > you'll
> > > get angry about it, and say to yourself, "He's
> > full of
> > > shit."  I know this going in, because that's the
> > very
> > > phenomenon I'm talking about.
> > > 
> > > I would say that MOST (and by "MOST" I mean 80-90%
> > of
> > > the people I interacted with during my week in
> > America
> > > were ANGRY.  The *first* thing that hits you, if
> > you've
> > > been away for a while is the level of F E A R in
> > the 
> > > air.  Almost everyone is afraid, all the time. 
> > And if
> > > you mention this perception to them, they'll tell
> > you
> > > they're not.  And THEN they'll get angry at you
> > for
> > > having noticed that they're afraid.  And THEN
> > they'll
> > > deny that they're angry.
> > > 
> > > It's just the weirdest thing.  Why I think it
> > relates
> > > to issues here on FFL is that a number of the
> > posters
> > > whom a lot of people agree are out-of-control
> > angry
> > > DENY that they're angry.  Well, I don't think that
> > they
> > > KNOW consciously that they're angry.  Anger is
> > their
> > > *baseline* state, the thing they settle back
> > *down* to
> > > and "relax" into when their out-of-control moments
> > settle
> > > down.  Anger is so much a part of their lives, so
> > much
> > > the "background soundtrack" of those lives, that
> > they
> > > think it's normal.  So they get even angrier when
> > some-
> > > one points out that they're angry, because they
> > don't
> > > want to admit that they're angry all the time.
> > > 
> > > Sadly, this is my (and a lot of Europeans') view
> > of
> > > America and Americans at this time.  They're so
> > afraid
> > > all the time that it makes them angry almost all
> > the
> > > time.  But they cannot admit either the anger or
> > the
> > > fear to themselves because that would
> > be...uh...like
> > > Un-American or something.  :-)
> > > 
> > > And even more sadly, that is the scenario in and
> > around
> > > a lot of spiritual traditions in which people have
> > been
> > > pursuing enlightenment for 20-30 years with no
> > real sign of
> > > progress.  They can't really *admit* the lack of
> > progress,
> > > because that would be "off the program" and would
> > make it
> > > sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher
> > and
> > > tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own
> > lack
> > > of progress.  ESPECIALLY if someone comes around
> > and
> > > talks about a basically normal, everyday
> > experience of
> > > enlightenment, something that really *should* be
> > normal
> > > and everyday in a real happening tradition.  The
> > people 
> > > hearing this often get really, really, really,
> > really 
> > > PISSED OFF. 
> > > 
> > > And in my opinion that's what you're feeling
> > around FFL
> > > right now.
> > > 
> > > This is just my opinion, and I'm just throwing it
> > out there 
> > > for other people to bounce off of.  I'm not going
> > to get
> > 
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> on 12/19/05 10:36 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > They can't really *admit* the lack of progress,
> > because that would be "off the program" and would make it
> > sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and
> > tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack
> > of progress.  ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and
> > talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of
> > enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal
> > and everyday in a real happening tradition.  The people
> > hearing this often get really, really, really, really
> > PISSED OFF. 
> 
> I can attest to this bit, here in FF. Some people get really upset
at the
> suggestion that people around town might actually be enlightened, or
Awake,
> or whatever you want to call it. It threatens their belief structure.
> Probably because these so-called enlightened people seem so ordinary.
>

That's why they are pejoritively labeled 'so-called enlightened'. (We
wouldn't want people actually getting enlightened, now would we...)

JohnY





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[Peter]

--- L B Shriver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> 
> A few weeks ago, Tom Pall genuinely apologized for
> one of his posts to Dr Pete, 
> spontaneously and almost immediately after sending
> it. 

You know, I didn't catch that post and I'm sorry I
didn't see it.  I also should apologize for Tom for
making a wise-ass crack at his expense. It was funny,
but at his expense. So, perhaps time to forgive all
around. 


> 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the 
> > majority of active posters) perceiving one partic-
> > ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive
> > because of that anger, suddenly "clicked" for me
> > this afternoon.  I had known that it reminded me
> > of something, but I had not been able to figure 
> > out *what* it reminded me of.
> > 
> > Bingo!  Got it.  It reminded me of visiting
> America
> > recently, my first trip back in over two and a
> half
> > years.
> > 
> > Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a
> while,
> > and are just re-entering it, you really aren't
> going
> > to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact
> you'll
> > get angry about it, and say to yourself, "He's
> full of
> > shit."  I know this going in, because that's the
> very
> > phenomenon I'm talking about.
> > 
> > I would say that MOST (and by "MOST" I mean 80-90%
> of
> > the people I interacted with during my week in
> America
> > were ANGRY.  The *first* thing that hits you, if
> you've
> > been away for a while is the level of F E A R in
> the 
> > air.  Almost everyone is afraid, all the time. 
> And if
> > you mention this perception to them, they'll tell
> you
> > they're not.  And THEN they'll get angry at you
> for
> > having noticed that they're afraid.  And THEN
> they'll
> > deny that they're angry.
> > 
> > It's just the weirdest thing.  Why I think it
> relates
> > to issues here on FFL is that a number of the
> posters
> > whom a lot of people agree are out-of-control
> angry
> > DENY that they're angry.  Well, I don't think that
> they
> > KNOW consciously that they're angry.  Anger is
> their
> > *baseline* state, the thing they settle back
> *down* to
> > and "relax" into when their out-of-control moments
> settle
> > down.  Anger is so much a part of their lives, so
> much
> > the "background soundtrack" of those lives, that
> they
> > think it's normal.  So they get even angrier when
> some-
> > one points out that they're angry, because they
> don't
> > want to admit that they're angry all the time.
> > 
> > Sadly, this is my (and a lot of Europeans') view
> of
> > America and Americans at this time.  They're so
> afraid
> > all the time that it makes them angry almost all
> the
> > time.  But they cannot admit either the anger or
> the
> > fear to themselves because that would
> be...uh...like
> > Un-American or something.  :-)
> > 
> > And even more sadly, that is the scenario in and
> around
> > a lot of spiritual traditions in which people have
> been
> > pursuing enlightenment for 20-30 years with no
> real sign of
> > progress.  They can't really *admit* the lack of
> progress,
> > because that would be "off the program" and would
> make it
> > sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher
> and
> > tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own
> lack
> > of progress.  ESPECIALLY if someone comes around
> and
> > talks about a basically normal, everyday
> experience of
> > enlightenment, something that really *should* be
> normal
> > and everyday in a real happening tradition.  The
> people 
> > hearing this often get really, really, really,
> really 
> > PISSED OFF. 
> > 
> > And in my opinion that's what you're feeling
> around FFL
> > right now.
> > 
> > This is just my opinion, and I'm just throwing it
> out there 
> > for other people to bounce off of.  I'm not going
> to get
> 
=== message truncated ===


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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[L B Shriver]

 I have reached a similar conclusion myself. This is how I have conceptualized 
it:

Most of us Movement "lifers" (NOT to be confused with Fairfield Lifers, 
although there is 
significant overlap between sets; "lifer" is used here as it's used elsewhere, 
in cases where 
one joins up—or is committed—for "life", ie the remainder of one's days)—most 
Movement 
lifers who are also Americans are facing not just one, but two huge 
disappointments. 

Of those who held out highest hopes for the Movement, I am guessing most 
(except True 
Believers) are disappointed. For those who were idealistic and committed, 
joining the 
Movement meant that one had become one of the elect few who were going to save 
the 
world. Literally. I know it sounds silly now, but that is what many of us 
believed. Now it is 
difficult to find the faintest shred of evidence that the world is being 
"saved". So the Dream 
is Over, and the disappointment for many is huge and painful. [Yes, I know that 
some of 
you who read this were too smart to be taken in and are saying "What 
disappointment?", 
but in this instance I am addressing the fate of those who truly believed. And 
we were 
many.]

At the same time, many are discovering that their deeply ingrained concepts 
about 
America (US of A) were likewise illusionary. What we had thought to be the land 
of the free 
and the home of the brave has turned out to be the Evil Empire. Not only is the 
world not 
being saved, but we are the ones who are fucking it up.

Either one of these disappointments by itself could prove quite painful, but 
both at once 
is, for some people, simply to painful to bear. Not only that, but our 
fundamental 
paradigms have been so brutally shaken that it's difficult to see where the 
crumbling of 
reality will end. Hence the fear.  Hence the denial. And the anger.

So I agree with your observation. The general state of mental health in this 
country is not 
very good, nor among TM people, either. The stress levels are very high. People 
are 
literally out of control, as witness much of what happens in this very forum.

I would add one point. There is no logical answer to this dilemma. Awakening, 
which is 
NOT a logical answer, but a change of awareness, does nothing to the dilemma as 
such, 
but at least releases the awakened from the suffering.

Aside from that——in the world as I see it now, there is only one commodity 
which is really 
useful: kindness. Unfortunately it is seldom in evidence in this forum, 
although it does 
manifest from time to time.

A few weeks ago, Tom Pall genuinely apologized for one of his posts to Dr Pete, 
spontaneously and almost immediately after sending it. The significance of that 
event 
eventually was buried under the subsequent avalanches of neurotic posts which 
seem to 
charactize this list lately. I am not against this, by the way, although my 
interest in 
participating is somewhat limited. I have already adopted the  "skimming" 
approach that 
others have recommended, and yes, it does make it easier to catch up.

L B S


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the 
> majority of active posters) perceiving one partic-
> ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive
> because of that anger, suddenly "clicked" for me
> this afternoon.  I had known that it reminded me
> of something, but I had not been able to figure 
> out *what* it reminded me of.
> 
> Bingo!  Got it.  It reminded me of visiting America
> recently, my first trip back in over two and a half
> years.
> 
> Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a while,
> and are just re-entering it, you really aren't going
> to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact you'll
> get angry about it, and say to yourself, "He's full of
> shit."  I know this going in, because that's the very
> phenomenon I'm talking about.
> 
> I would say that MOST (and by "MOST" I mean 80-90% of
> the people I interacted with during my week in America
> were ANGRY.  The *first* thing that hits you, if you've
> been away for a while is the level of F E A R in the 
> air.  Almost everyone is afraid, all the time.  And if
> you mention this perception to them, they'll tell you
> they're not.  And THEN they'll get angry at you for
> having noticed that they're afraid.  And THEN they'll
> deny that they're angry.
> 
> It's just the weirdest thing.  Why I think it relates
> to issues here on FFL is that a number of the posters
> whom a lot of people agree are out-of-control angry
> DENY that they're angry.  Well, I don't think that they
> KNOW consciously that they're angry.  Anger is their
> *baseline* state, the thing they settle back *down* to
> and "relax" into when their out-of-control moments settle
> down.  Anger is so much a part of their lives, so much
> the "background soundtrack" of those lives, that they
> think it's normal.  So they get even angrier when some-
> one points out that they're

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[Peter]

--- Alex Stanley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > On the other hand, the process of gaining
> enlightenment is not mumbo 
> > jumbo, and particularly the majority of the
> members here, who have 
> > been meditating in this life for decades, the
> physiology is 
> > conditioned to accept enlightenment already, so
> what is stopping us, 
> > from this really very normal experience?
> > 
> > Through seeking enlightenment so long, many of us
> think that seeking 
> > is a normal state; some progress, a setback, a
> flashy experience, 
> > and then more of the same. However, it is just as
> easy to 'break on 
> > through to the other side...'. And the reward is
> well worth it! 
>  
> I think the biggest hurdle is the ego, which thinks
> *it's* the thing
> that awakens. Most of the assholiness on FFL is true
> believers of one
> sect bashing the true believers of another. I think
> those who engage
> in "my guru/lineage can beat up your guru/lineage"
> are the addicts
> that Tom T's recent post referred to. They're
> addicted to the ideas
> and dogmas of enlightenment. Teachings can point to
> truth, but you
> have to be vigilant against falling into the
> delusional mind-trap that
> teachings *are* truth. The finger pointing at the
> moon is not the
> moon; the moon is not made of finger.
> 
> Needless to say, these words and ideas are not
> truth, and it's the
> force of my own ego that drives me to post them.
> 
> Alex

And on top of it all, why are you so rageful that
you're giving me the finger? Pointing at the moon, ha!
;-)



> 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 12/19/05 10:36 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > They can't really *admit* the lack of progress,
> > because that would be "off the program" and would make it
> > sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and
> > tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack
> > of progress.  ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and
> > talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of
> > enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal
> > and everyday in a real happening tradition.  The people
> > hearing this often get really, really, really, really
> > PISSED OFF. 
> 
> I can attest to this bit, here in FF. Some people get really upset 
at the
> suggestion that people around town might actually be enlightened, 
or Awake,
> or whatever you want to call it. It threatens their belief 
structure.
> Probably because these so-called enlightened people seem so 
ordinary.
>

Remind them of MMY's characterization of CC as "merely normal" 
or "glorified ignorance."

Besides, even within CC, there are ranges of maturity, from what MMY 
has said, and from my own internal observation of what I suspect are 
flashes of CC.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[braaahmaan]

A point regarding this issue of one or more persons perceiving other
posters as angry, and abusive -- suddenly "clicked" for me this
afternoon.  I had known that it reminded me of something, but I had
not been able to figure  out *what* is so intriguing. 

The premeise appears to be that content of a post is not "the thing",
its the percieved emotional state of the poster that is paramont. 

If a poster is percieved as angry, or some other non acceptable state,
then their content is discounted outright. Putting aside the
difficulty of assessing a strangers "state" from miles away, from
words alone, it seems that fundamental that content that which is
important. Art and literature, while not of the same "level" as posts
on this list, have all been created by  those in various states: in
pain, sufffering, angry, depressed, content, exaulted, drunk, stoned,
sleepy, "actualzed", up for 4-days straigt, etc. While their "state"
may be an interesting foot note, it does not determine, in any
absolute or even substantial sense, the merits of the content of the
material. That "state" over content, ideas, concepts, information is
of primary interest for some is a "go figure" phenomenon.




 
 
> Bingo!  Got it.  It reminded me of visiting America
> recently, my first trip back in over two and a half
> years.
> 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[braaahmaan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the 
> > majority of active posters) perceiving one partic-
> > ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive
> > because of that anger, suddenly "clicked" for me
> > this afternoon.  I had known that it reminded me
> > of something, but I had not been able to figure 
> > out *what* it reminded me of.
> > 
> > Bingo!  Got it.  It reminded me of visiting America
> > recently, my first trip back in over two and a half
> > years.
> > 
> > Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a while,
> > and are just re-entering it, you really aren't going
> > to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact you'll
> > get angry about it, and say to yourself, "He's full of
> > shit."
> 
> You're full of shit, Barry.

Dr. Pete would applaud you. Direct confrontation. No hiding behind
satire, sarcasm, passive-aggressivism, parody, irony, etc.
Thats the kind of direct talk he likes. (Except apparently when it
insults his non-existing ego  as Irmeli and Akasha posts / exchanges
with DR PS seem to indicate).

[I would suspect the above, last sentence would be seen as
"passive-aggressive" by Dr. Pete. But he sees PA "everywhere". Maybeit
is "everywhere". But it reminds me of the guy with abig hammer to whom
EVERYTHING  looks like the head of a nail.

Well the PA hypothesis is certainly a hypothesis for consideration. I
will ponder it. However, such a comment is also parallel and
characteristic to what commonly is termed "observational humor". A
favorite mode of many favorite comics and on-liner adficionados
(Seinfeld, Leno, Carlin -- and Barry).

It raises the question: is observational humor passive-aggressive?
Always? Never? Sometimes? I will openly consider the full range of
these questions. Still like some, I laugh at the notion of a "non-ego"
that does not exist, being insulted. Call me sick if you must, but
THATS funny. 


>   I know this going in, because that's the very
> > phenomenon I'm talking about.
> 
> "If you agree, it's because I'm right.  And if you
> disagree, why, it's becauase I'm right."

Yes, there are some funny exchanges going on. Using Dr Petes favorite
analogy (used to describe discussion and incredibility of his
"realization") but in this context, generalized to "you are angry" or,
for that matter, any assertions made by others to oneself: 

 Its raining. I am walking in the rain. I am soaking wet and
someone insists I am perfectly dry. if One agrees (with the wrong
statement) its because the observer is "right". If one disagrees (with
the wrong statement) you are in denial -- and the observer is still
"right". It gets funnier because the observers in recent exchanges
then say -- I can't and I refuse to talk to you unless you acknowledge
I am right (regardless of how silly my claims are"), you are perfecly dry!

 
> In the lingo of the anti-cult cult, that's what's
> known as a thought-stopper.

I would suggest the above is at least also a thought stopper.
 
> > I would say that MOST (and by "MOST" I mean 80-90% of
> > the people I interacted with during my week in America
> > were ANGRY.
> 
> I don't imagine you've thought to ask yourself whether
> the folks you were interacting with were angry because
> your snotty, elitist way of dealing with people pissed
> them off.

Yes, when someone comes up to you in person, or the list, and says
"Why are you so angry!?", and you say, "gee, I am not angry", that
DENIAL is something they sometimes interpret as anger. As some
obervational humorists would say "Go figure!"

 
> Or because they *aren't* afraid, and you "mentioned
> your perception" to them in a way that was designed
> to piss them off so you could validate your own
> wishful thinking.
> 
> In my experience and observation, people who make a
> big deal about how angry somebody else is are
> *afraid* of anger, in particular their own anger.

I think projecion is always a good hypothesis to consider.It may not
always be active, but more so than many realize, IMO. 
 
> Typically, when they were young, these people were
> routinely punished for expressing anger, and they
> internalized the notion that anger was a Bad Thing--
> not just Bad, but Dangerous to their very survival.
> 
> Once they've grown up, they have a tendency to
> deliberately provoke anger in others whom they
> perceive to be threats, because that way they can
> feel in control; they've learned to suppress their
> own anger, so they can then look down their noses
> at the people whom they've made angry.  In their
> minds, that defuses the threat and reduces the
> Anger Danger they so fear.

Ineresting dynamic. Not always applicable, but always a worthy 
hypothesis to consider. In ones own reactions, but also in trying to
understand "not so apparently rational" behavior in others. 

This list is a great lab for that.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[Alex Stanley]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> On the other hand, the process of gaining enlightenment is not mumbo 
> jumbo, and particularly the majority of the members here, who have 
> been meditating in this life for decades, the physiology is 
> conditioned to accept enlightenment already, so what is stopping us, 
> from this really very normal experience?
> 
> Through seeking enlightenment so long, many of us think that seeking 
> is a normal state; some progress, a setback, a flashy experience, 
> and then more of the same. However, it is just as easy to 'break on 
> through to the other side...'. And the reward is well worth it! 
 
I think the biggest hurdle is the ego, which thinks *it's* the thing
that awakens. Most of the assholiness on FFL is true believers of one
sect bashing the true believers of another. I think those who engage
in "my guru/lineage can beat up your guru/lineage" are the addicts
that Tom T's recent post referred to. They're addicted to the ideas
and dogmas of enlightenment. Teachings can point to truth, but you
have to be vigilant against falling into the delusional mind-trap that
teachings *are* truth. The finger pointing at the moon is not the
moon; the moon is not made of finger.

Needless to say, these words and ideas are not truth, and it's the
force of my own ego that drives me to post them.

Alex





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the 
> majority of active posters) perceiving one partic-
> ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive
> because of that anger, suddenly "clicked" for me
> this afternoon.  I had known that it reminded me
> of something, but I had not been able to figure 
> out *what* it reminded me of.
> 
> Bingo!  Got it.  It reminded me of visiting America
> recently, my first trip back in over two and a half
> years.
> 
> Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a while,
> and are just re-entering it, you really aren't going
> to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact you'll
> get angry about it, and say to yourself, "He's full of
> shit."

You're full of shit, Barry.

  I know this going in, because that's the very
> phenomenon I'm talking about.

"If you agree, it's because I'm right.  And if you
disagree, why, it's becauase I'm right."

In the lingo of the anti-cult cult, that's what's
known as a thought-stopper.

> I would say that MOST (and by "MOST" I mean 80-90% of
> the people I interacted with during my week in America
> were ANGRY.

I don't imagine you've thought to ask yourself whether
the folks you were interacting with were angry because
your snotty, elitist way of dealing with people pissed
them off.

  The *first* thing that hits you, if you've
> been away for a while is the level of F E A R in the 
> air.  Almost everyone is afraid, all the time.  And if
> you mention this perception to them, they'll tell you
> they're not.  And THEN they'll get angry at you for
> having noticed that they're afraid.

Or because they *aren't* afraid, and you "mentioned
your perception" to them in a way that was designed
to piss them off so you could validate your own
wishful thinking.

In my experience and observation, people who make a
big deal about how angry somebody else is are
*afraid* of anger, in particular their own anger.

Typically, when they were young, these people were
routinely punished for expressing anger, and they
internalized the notion that anger was a Bad Thing--
not just Bad, but Dangerous to their very survival.

Once they've grown up, they have a tendency to
deliberately provoke anger in others whom they
perceive to be threats, because that way they can
feel in control; they've learned to suppress their
own anger, so they can then look down their noses
at the people whom they've made angry.  In their
minds, that defuses the threat and reduces the
Anger Danger they so fear.



  And THEN they'll
> deny that they're angry.
> 
> It's just the weirdest thing.  Why I think it relates
> to issues here on FFL is that a number of the posters
> whom a lot of people agree are out-of-control angry
> DENY that they're angry.  Well, I don't think that they
> KNOW consciously that they're angry.  Anger is their
> *baseline* state, the thing they settle back *down* to
> and "relax" into when their out-of-control moments settle
> down.  Anger is so much a part of their lives, so much
> the "background soundtrack" of those lives, that they
> think it's normal.  So they get even angrier when some-
> one points out that they're angry, because they don't
> want to admit that they're angry all the time.
> 
> Sadly, this is my (and a lot of Europeans') view of
> America and Americans at this time.  They're so afraid
> all the time that it makes them angry almost all the
> time.  But they cannot admit either the anger or the
> fear to themselves because that would be...uh...like
> Un-American or something.  :-)
> 
> And even more sadly, that is the scenario in and around
> a lot of spiritual traditions in which people have been
> pursuing enlightenment for 20-30 years with no real sign of
> progress.  They can't really *admit* the lack of progress,
> because that would be "off the program" and would make it
> sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and
> tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack
> of progress.  ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and
> talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of
> enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal
> and everyday in a real happening tradition.  The people 
> hearing this often get really, really, really, really 
> PISSED OFF. 
> 
> And in my opinion that's what you're feeling around FFL
> right now.
> 
> This is just my opinion, and I'm just throwing it out there 
> for other people to bounce off of.  I'm not going to get
> involved in defending these ideas or arguing them with
> some self-styled spiritual drama queen, just because
> they're in need of an argument today to make them feel
> alive .  They're just ideas.  Do with 'em what you want...
>







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[braaahmaan]

Barry provides some thoughtful and thought provoking observations and
hypotheses. While I open to the validity of such, it makes me wonder
if other dynamics and explanations may also be possible. 

Ochams Razor would dictate looking for the simplest explanation. If
90% of people polled, or observed on-line, are told "you are angry"
and they nearly universally say, "Well, actually not." And given that
the poller in most cases has virtually  no knowledge of the persons in
questions other than a quick observation, a simpler explanation would
be: the observation of anger is incorrect, and the self-reporting by
people who know their own lives quite well, may actualy be more valid
than the poller who has observed them for a few minutes, or read a few
posts of theirs. But it certainly is fair and good to consider both
explanations, as well as others. 

Barry's model suggests a generalized dynamic -- a framework from which
other content might be hung. A current observation of mine comes to
mind. As I have posted, I have found several recent posts  quite
funny.(1) I have asked in this forum, "Doesn't anyone else see the
humor here?". Not much of a response -- though to be honest, not many
people respond to such broad quesions.  

So one or two, of many possible explantions, are that: 1) people on
this list don't have much of a sense of humor. Since there is a lot of
joking around, that doesn't seem to fit. A second explanation could be
2) My sense of humor is different from others. Or 3) The observations
are not funny. 

While open to number 3, humor is reflexive. When one laughs at
something, by definition it is funny to them. Thus, if at least one
person is laughing, its hard to tie a solid objective collar on any
"laughed at" observation and say, in absolute terms that it is devoid
of humor. In other words, "popular" humor may be democratic. Sometimes
to the lowerst common denominator. 

More people think Jay Leno is funny than say Stephen Wright or
Jeneanne Goroffallo. But it does not follow that Jay Leno is funnier
in an absolute sense. Indeed if there is a "critical theory" for
humor, I would speculate that popular humor may usually be observed as
"lower humor" than humor that is more complex, nuanced and
mult-layerd. Just a a list of blockbuster films is often quite
different from a list of critically acclaimed films.
Thus humor itself is not really democratic. If one person is laughing,
by definition the joke or observation funny to someone. 

Given this, it appears to me, subject to further consideration, that
the second explanation fits the evidence best. But in a generalzed
context, not solely specific to me, option 2 raises some  interesting
possibilities. Are they laughing because they have a "warped" sense of
humor? For example, a staple of physical humor is near universal
laughter when someone "slips on the banana peel". Why that is is
interesting. But this contrasts with "quite sick humor" -- for
example, someone laughing at a roadside crash. Most would agree that
someone finds a road crash funny is repulsive. Yet, somone is
laughing, so in a universal objective sense, one can't say its totally
humorless. Humorless to most, and perhaps ALL civilized people, but
not humorless to all. 

Another local example. Dr. Pete 'apologized" to Tom Pall for his
(Peter's) prior "humor", which Tom felt was distasteful,
innapropriately personal, and referencing posts from many months ago
-- nothing Tom currently said. So while I found no humor in Dr. Petes
orignal "jokes", I found them sort of repulsive, Peter found them
quite funny. Thus it can't be said the "jokes" were humorless in an
absolute sense. Someone was laughing. And props to Dr. Pete, he
apologized to Tom. Yet in the same post, same paragraph as the
apology, he ends by saying something like "now lets get back to talkng
about things of substance -- about gurus boning students." I gasped
upon reading that. Could anyone possibly find that funny? To totally
undercut the sense of seriousness of an apology by placing it in the
same breath as some IMO juvenile "joke.". So different strokes for
diffrent folks. Differnt types of funny bones. 

The point being there appears to be no universal and absolute 
standard for humor -- though there may be various "critical theories"
just as there are in art, literature and film. But ultimately, some
people laugh, some don't.

Back to the specific, if I am the only one laughing, it is certainly
reasonable, if not imperative, to ask myself, why do I find this funny
and others don't. Is my reflexive humor (reflexive in that one can't
decide whats funny -- one laughs reflexively at some things and not at
others) warped, sick, driven by dark and socialy unacceptable factors?
Could be, certainly a lot of good material for reflection and fodder
for growth of understanding. 

Or while the "humor might be seen funny among a wider audience, among
the 5-6 posters (2) who may make observations on humor on FFL, are
there common fact

[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not"

[TurquoiseB]

--- In 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> TorquiseB writes: snipped a lot
> I would say that MOST (and by "MOST" I mean 80-90% of
> the people I interacted with during my week in America
> were ANGRY.  The *first* thing that hits you, if you've
> been away for a while is the level of F E A R in the 
> air.  Almost everyone is afraid, all the time.  And if
> you mention this perception to them, they'll tell you
> they're not.  And THEN they'll get angry at you for
> having noticed that they're afraid.  And THEN they'll
> deny that they're angry.
> 
> Tom T:
> Thanks for the reminder about the book, When Society becomes an
> Addict" by Ann Marie Wilson Schief. Her take is that about 98.9% of
> our society operates as an open addictive society. The bottom line 
of
> that type of functioning is the inability to tell the truth. If you
> are into your addiction you are telling lies about everything. If 
you
> are telling the truth as you know it you are not. By the way there 
is
> a little part of you that always knows when you are lieing. That is
> why people feel so bad and then move into active addictions to kill
> the pain. ie booze coke h sex and other active pain killers. I
> reliazed that I was off the wagon in attempting to deal with our 
more
> active liars here and I am turning over, again, my life to my true
> self.  From now on these folks go into the delete file unread. 
Thanks
> for the opportunity to get back on the wagon and stay sober. The 
stuff
> that I allow myself to put into my mind is shocking. Good by old
> addictive posters. You get no more of my attention, plus or minus.
> TOm T

Good luck.  It's time, I think.  These people have
managed to drag us (and this forum) down to the mindstates 
they think are "normal" for too long now.  The greatest
gift man (or woman) possesses is the ability to choose.
We can choose not to give these assholes any of our 
energy.  It'll even be a favor to them in time, because
they'll have to figure out how to get some on their own
without ripping off attention from others...









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Thoughts on the "You're angry" / "No, I'm not" thang

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> This issue of one or more persons (sometimes the 
> majority of active posters) perceiving one partic-
> ular poster as consistently angry, and abusive
> because of that anger, suddenly "clicked" for me
> this afternoon.  I had known that it reminded me
> of something, but I had not been able to figure 
> out *what* it reminded me of.
> 
> Bingo!  Got it.  It reminded me of visiting America
> recently, my first trip back in over two and a half
> years.
> 
> Unless you've lived *outside* the country for a while,
> and are just re-entering it, you really aren't going
> to get (or believe) what I'm saying, and in fact you'll
> get angry about it, and say to yourself, "He's full of
> shit."  I know this going in, because that's the very
> phenomenon I'm talking about.
> 
> I would say that MOST (and by "MOST" I mean 80-90% of
> the people I interacted with during my week in America
> were ANGRY.  The *first* thing that hits you, if you've
> been away for a while is the level of F E A R in the 
> air.  Almost everyone is afraid, all the time.  And if
> you mention this perception to them, they'll tell you
> they're not.  And THEN they'll get angry at you for
> having noticed that they're afraid.  And THEN they'll
> deny that they're angry.
> 
> It's just the weirdest thing.  Why I think it relates
> to issues here on FFL is that a number of the posters
> whom a lot of people agree are out-of-control angry
> DENY that they're angry.  Well, I don't think that they
> KNOW consciously that they're angry.  Anger is their
> *baseline* state, the thing they settle back *down* to
> and "relax" into when their out-of-control moments settle
> down.  Anger is so much a part of their lives, so much
> the "background soundtrack" of those lives, that they
> think it's normal.  So they get even angrier when some-
> one points out that they're angry, because they don't
> want to admit that they're angry all the time.
> 
> Sadly, this is my (and a lot of Europeans') view of
> America and Americans at this time.  They're so afraid
> all the time that it makes them angry almost all the
> time.  But they cannot admit either the anger or the
> fear to themselves because that would be...uh...like
> Un-American or something.  :-)
> 
> And even more sadly, that is the scenario in and around
> a lot of spiritual traditions in which people have been
> pursuing enlightenment for 20-30 years with no real sign of
> progress.  They can't really *admit* the lack of progress,
> because that would be "off the program" and would make it
> sound like they were doubting the all-holy teacher and
> tradition, but they're very *aware* of their own lack
> of progress.  ESPECIALLY if someone comes around and
> talks about a basically normal, everyday experience of
> enlightenment, something that really *should* be normal
> and everyday in a real happening tradition.  The people 
> hearing this often get really, really, really, really 
> PISSED OFF. 
> 
> And in my opinion that's what you're feeling around FFL
> right now.
> 
> This is just my opinion, and I'm just throwing it out there 
> for other people to bounce off of.  I'm not going to get
> involved in defending these ideas or arguing them with
> some self-styled spiritual drama queen, just because
> they're in need of an argument today to make them feel
> alive .  They're just ideas.  Do with 'em what you want...
>

Can't say I've noticed the anger thing directly in the general 
population, though it has been mentioned before that fear is a great 
way to keep the populace in check politically, and I do see a LOT of 
indirect evidence for that... 

However I do notice the other part of what you said. Especially the 
part about treating enlightenment as just another experience. On the 
one hand, sure it is special- divesting oneself of lifetimes of 
suffering is pretty darned neat. Ongoing freedom is also something 
incaluably special. 

On the other hand, the process of gaining enlightenment is not mumbo 
jumbo, and particularly the majority of the members here, who have 
been meditating in this life for decades, the physiology is 
conditioned to accept enlightenment already, so what is stopping us, 
from this really very normal experience?

Through seeking enlightenment so long, many of us think that seeking 
is a normal state; some progress, a setback, a flashy experience, 
and then more of the same. However, it is just as easy to 'break on 
through to the other side...'. And the reward is well worth it! 

Say a prayer, go for it!











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