Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
well willim on the part of old games. They can be run at least from windows still but no backspacing and several other modifier keys won't work but yes you can still play them though yeah simple dos stuff is a thing of the past now. At 06:59 a.m. 22/07/2011, you wrote: Hi all. Dennis, I agree with you completely about vb6. Che, you are right in saying that results are important. Many games were created in vb6 which I regularly play and enjoy. The big difference between vb6 and python, is that python is still actively being developed and supported where Microsoft ended support for vb6 years ago. My advice to new programmers would be to investigate viability of the language they choose to use too. I also regularly play alter eon and it is one of the muds with the least bugs and almost no lag at all. Lag may be one of the disadvantages to using higher level languages. The use of vb6 will most probably become a problem later when arm becomes popular, Microsoft changes something in windows or the old hardware laying around breaks. This is what happened to most dos games, though I'm sure the die hearts will still find a way to run the games. And as seen in trying to run some old software, emulators will not always work. Never the less, most games out there are written in vb6 and they are fun to play. I hope we as a community can find a way to make the games playable on newer and different hardware and operating systems as there are few enough games out there. On 7/21/2011 8:00 PM, Che wrote: Hi Dennis, Let me be the first to reitterate that I am not very experienced as a programmer. I didn't get a degree in it, I had to do most of the heavy lifting by learning from the web and various books. I agree that if I were to take on a massive multi year project with tons of database pulls etc. I'd have to look at something more low level. But neither myself, nor the vast majority of audio game developers need that kind of juice, and our games run just fine, and we make decent products with what we know. More importantly, folks have to walk before they can run, and others constantly crapping on python, VB et. al. are doing a disservice to new developers trying to get a toe hold. I know I keep repeating that sentiment, but it bears repeating as evidenced once again by this post. So while you may think VB is a toy, we've made a lot of people smile and enjoy themselves with our toys. also, you said: quote: I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that > take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked > too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. end quote. Given the rant sent to list yesterday, I wasn't sure who you were talking about there, so I didn't know if I should feel offended or not, please advise. Later, che On 7/21/2011 12:38 PM, Dennis Towne wrote: Thomas and friends, Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a developer as well, and I have something to say. Further, I have a similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt: VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and hobby work. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason, go right ahead. I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's their business. In fact, a lot of applications fall into this category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of them. But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project. The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and scripting. I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of them all. Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of programming language once a project reaches a certain size. Any large project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make things easier and simpler. Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time actually writing C++ code. The remaining 80% is spent coming up with a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users. Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when adding new features to the game. In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see in programs. Sure, it's only
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Shaun, We all start out in some language, usually a higher level one. Myself, I started with Tandy BASIC on a TRS-80 radio shack computer; I had also learned and used Pascal, C, and 8086 assembly language prior to getting a degree. Further, my degree isn't even in programming or software engineering. As I said in my previous post, for toys and hobbies, certain languages are fine, because the demands placed on them aren't very stressful. But there are projects and coding styles for which those languages are not appropriate. This is not a matter of opinion; it is a statement of fact, language construction, and problem domain. As I saw the situation, Thomas did nothing more than point out this fact, for which he was derided and trolled by people that have what appears to be far less experience than him. As a fellow game developer with a thick hide, I'm more than happy to stand out front and take some of the flames. It's one thing to have a discussion about programming languages where people are interested in having a discussion. It's quite another to troll a productive game developer until he quits the list. Dennis Towne On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 2:27 PM, shaun everiss wrote: > I also aggree with that side. > And I never got a degree either. > I tried vb etc, but to be truthfull my languages I did studdy are freepascal > using the devpascal ide by bloodshed or javascript. > Javascript is real limiting anyway but if there were libs for stuff I'd > probably be more comfortable to do something in pascal myself. > Its been known for ages in the industry, that c++ is needed to go beyond > playing with our toys and into bigger and better things. > However we are not talking about making huge piles of cash here. > Heck our stuff doesn't even make mainstream. > So our toys as you call it denis are probably toys but its safe to say that > most of us are probably hobbyists I think its fair to say that most of us > are not thinking they will get millions of dollars to really develop gaming. > Heck Companies may only be 1-2 people at most not sure of stats but we are > quite small and will probably remain so for a while. > It also depends on what you are used to. > Obviously if you know c++ already then keep using what you know. > If you have jumped in the sharks and are happy there, go ahead and continue, > the rest of us though are probably little fish. > I am not sure if this is correct but as far as I know tom is the first of > his kind or close to anyway. > I don't have the stomach to learn programming let alone c++. > Though I have always had a dream that when I eventually did program I'd use > something by boreland corp. > Its never happened but yeah. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hi. The parts of nvda written in python are the parts not memory or CPU intensive. In those cases especially is where scripting languages shine. Python is also good for testing an idea or quickly writing a program. On 7/21/2011 8:18 PM, shaun everiss wrote: I aggree with you. Yeah all the scripting languages are probably quite limiting in themselves. Directly coding stuf is sertainly more powerfull than those. There are acceptions. Nvda is python, although saying that several of its libs were made with c or c++. So I don't know its not exactly that small anymore. At 05:38 a.m. 22/07/2011, you wrote: Thomas and friends, Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a developer as well, and I have something to say. Further, I have a similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt: VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and hobby work. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason, go right ahead. I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's their business. In fact, a lot of applications fall into this category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of them. But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project. The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and scripting. I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of them all. Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of programming language once a project reaches a certain size. Any large project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make things easier and simpler. Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time actually writing C++ code. The remaining 80% is spent coming up with a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users. Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when adding new features to the game. In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see in programs. Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it only took three days to implement. But it also doesn't work quite right, and it isn't consistent, and things that should be there aren't while things that are there probably shouldn't be. The solution to this is to design more, and code less, regardless of the programming language. Dennis Towne --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hi all. Dennis, I agree with you completely about vb6. Che, you are right in saying that results are important. Many games were created in vb6 which I regularly play and enjoy. The big difference between vb6 and python, is that python is still actively being developed and supported where Microsoft ended support for vb6 years ago. My advice to new programmers would be to investigate viability of the language they choose to use too. I also regularly play alter eon and it is one of the muds with the least bugs and almost no lag at all. Lag may be one of the disadvantages to using higher level languages. The use of vb6 will most probably become a problem later when arm becomes popular, Microsoft changes something in windows or the old hardware laying around breaks. This is what happened to most dos games, though I'm sure the die hearts will still find a way to run the games. And as seen in trying to run some old software, emulators will not always work. Never the less, most games out there are written in vb6 and they are fun to play. I hope we as a community can find a way to make the games playable on newer and different hardware and operating systems as there are few enough games out there. On 7/21/2011 8:00 PM, Che wrote: Hi Dennis, Let me be the first to reitterate that I am not very experienced as a programmer. I didn't get a degree in it, I had to do most of the heavy lifting by learning from the web and various books. I agree that if I were to take on a massive multi year project with tons of database pulls etc. I'd have to look at something more low level. But neither myself, nor the vast majority of audio game developers need that kind of juice, and our games run just fine, and we make decent products with what we know. More importantly, folks have to walk before they can run, and others constantly crapping on python, VB et. al. are doing a disservice to new developers trying to get a toe hold. I know I keep repeating that sentiment, but it bears repeating as evidenced once again by this post. So while you may think VB is a toy, we've made a lot of people smile and enjoy themselves with our toys. also, you said: quote: I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that > take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked > too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. end quote. Given the rant sent to list yesterday, I wasn't sure who you were talking about there, so I didn't know if I should feel offended or not, please advise. Later, che On 7/21/2011 12:38 PM, Dennis Towne wrote: Thomas and friends, Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a developer as well, and I have something to say. Further, I have a similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt: VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and hobby work. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason, go right ahead. I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's their business. In fact, a lot of applications fall into this category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of them. But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project. The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and scripting. I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of them all. Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of programming language once a project reaches a certain size. Any large project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make things easier and simpler. Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time actually writing C++ code. The remaining 80% is spent coming up with a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users. Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when adding new features to the game. In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see in programs. Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it only took three days to implement. But it also doesn't work quite right, and it isn't consistent, and things that should be there aren't while things that are there probably shouldn't be. The solution to this is to design more, and code le
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
I also aggree with that side. And I never got a degree either. I tried vb etc, but to be truthfull my languages I did studdy are freepascal using the devpascal ide by bloodshed or javascript. Javascript is real limiting anyway but if there were libs for stuff I'd probably be more comfortable to do something in pascal myself. Its been known for ages in the industry, that c++ is needed to go beyond playing with our toys and into bigger and better things. However we are not talking about making huge piles of cash here. Heck our stuff doesn't even make mainstream. So our toys as you call it denis are probably toys but its safe to say that most of us are probably hobbyists I think its fair to say that most of us are not thinking they will get millions of dollars to really develop gaming. Heck Companies may only be 1-2 people at most not sure of stats but we are quite small and will probably remain so for a while. It also depends on what you are used to. Obviously if you know c++ already then keep using what you know. If you have jumped in the sharks and are happy there, go ahead and continue, the rest of us though are probably little fish. I am not sure if this is correct but as far as I know tom is the first of his kind or close to anyway. I don't have the stomach to learn programming let alone c++. Though I have always had a dream that when I eventually did program I'd use something by boreland corp. Its never happened but yeah. At 06:00 a.m. 22/07/2011, you wrote: Hi Dennis, Let me be the first to reitterate that I am not very experienced as a programmer. I didn't get a degree in it, I had to do most of the heavy lifting by learning from the web and various books. I agree that if I were to take on a massive multi year project with tons of database pulls etc. I'd have to look at something more low level. But neither myself, nor the vast majority of audio game developers need that kind of juice, and our games run just fine, and we make decent products with what we know. More importantly, folks have to walk before they can run, and others constantly crapping on python, VB et. al. are doing a disservice to new developers trying to get a toe hold. I know I keep repeating that sentiment, but it bears repeating as evidenced once again by this post. So while you may think VB is a toy, we've made a lot of people smile and enjoy themselves with our toys. also, you said: quote: I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that > take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked > too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. end quote. Given the rant sent to list yesterday, I wasn't sure who you were talking about there, so I didn't know if I should feel offended or not, please advise. Later, che On 7/21/2011 12:38 PM, Dennis Towne wrote: Thomas and friends, Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a developer as well, and I have something to say. Further, I have a similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt: VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and hobby work. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason, go right ahead. I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's their business. In fact, a lot of applications fall into this category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of them. But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project. The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and scripting. I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of them all. Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of programming language once a project reaches a certain size. Any large project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make things easier and simpler. Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time actually writing C++ code. The remaining 80% is spent coming up with a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users. Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when adding new features to the game. In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see in programs. Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it on
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
I aggree with you. Yeah all the scripting languages are probably quite limiting in themselves. Directly coding stuf is sertainly more powerfull than those. There are acceptions. Nvda is python, although saying that several of its libs were made with c or c++. So I don't know its not exactly that small anymore. At 05:38 a.m. 22/07/2011, you wrote: Thomas and friends, Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a developer as well, and I have something to say. Further, I have a similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt: VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and hobby work. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason, go right ahead. I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's their business. In fact, a lot of applications fall into this category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of them. But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project. The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and scripting. I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of them all. Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of programming language once a project reaches a certain size. Any large project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make things easier and simpler. Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time actually writing C++ code. The remaining 80% is spent coming up with a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users. Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when adding new features to the game. In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see in programs. Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it only took three days to implement. But it also doesn't work quite right, and it isn't consistent, and things that should be there aren't while things that are there probably shouldn't be. The solution to this is to design more, and code less, regardless of the programming language. Dennis Towne --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hi Dennis, Let me be the first to reitterate that I am not very experienced as a programmer. I didn't get a degree in it, I had to do most of the heavy lifting by learning from the web and various books. I agree that if I were to take on a massive multi year project with tons of database pulls etc. I'd have to look at something more low level. But neither myself, nor the vast majority of audio game developers need that kind of juice, and our games run just fine, and we make decent products with what we know. More importantly, folks have to walk before they can run, and others constantly crapping on python, VB et. al. are doing a disservice to new developers trying to get a toe hold. I know I keep repeating that sentiment, but it bears repeating as evidenced once again by this post. So while you may think VB is a toy, we've made a lot of people smile and enjoy themselves with our toys. also, you said: quote: I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that > take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked > too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. end quote. Given the rant sent to list yesterday, I wasn't sure who you were talking about there, so I didn't know if I should feel offended or not, please advise. Later, che On 7/21/2011 12:38 PM, Dennis Towne wrote: Thomas and friends, Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a developer as well, and I have something to say. Further, I have a similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt: VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and hobby work. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason, go right ahead. I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's their business. In fact, a lot of applications fall into this category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of them. But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project. The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and scripting. I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of them all. Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of programming language once a project reaches a certain size. Any large project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make things easier and simpler. Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time actually writing C++ code. The remaining 80% is spent coming up with a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users. Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when adding new features to the game. In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see in programs. Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it only took three days to implement. But it also doesn't work quite right, and it isn't consistent, and things that should be there aren't while things that are there probably shouldn't be. The solution to this is to design more, and code less, regardless of the programming language. Dennis Towne --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Thomas and friends, Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a developer as well, and I have something to say. Further, I have a similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt: VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and hobby work. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason, go right ahead. I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that take offense at anything they feel might slight them. I have worked too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens. If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's their business. In fact, a lot of applications fall into this category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of them. But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project. The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and scripting. I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of them all. Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of programming language once a project reaches a certain size. Any large project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make things easier and simpler. Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time actually writing C++ code. The remaining 80% is spent coming up with a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users. Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when adding new features to the game. In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see in programs. Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it only took three days to implement. But it also doesn't work quite right, and it isn't consistent, and things that should be there aren't while things that are there probably shouldn't be. The solution to this is to design more, and code less, regardless of the programming language. Dennis Towne --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
well as I have probably stated before there tom has always said he ran with c++ as a language. That language is harder to learn than others and is complex. His ideas were quite advanced for the gaming community. Critsising people about their languages is not fair but then I only tested games and made sounds for those. I never programmed in my life. And he was not always like that there was a time where dotnet was what he liked. And he has always been helpfull. At 03:45 a.m. 21/07/2011, you wrote: Ryan, I remember that time. If you recall I was one of those who backed you up too. In the end, Thomas admitted he was biest toward python and no insults and name calling was required, just reason and statement of fact. On 7/20/11, Ryan Strunk wrote: > Hey Willem, > I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I > understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to > be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary > because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a > viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and > those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to > be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of > those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's > not like this market has much competition, after all. > Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why > people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to > take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that > before getting upset at others for not understanding him. > > On 7/20/11, Willem wrote: >> Hi all. >> Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little >> common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did >> not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people >> needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just >> that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people. >> >> I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over >> sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't >> change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was >> totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only >> one. >> >> I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. >> If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their >> mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all. >> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. >> > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
I guess that python could be classed as a simple language because its script base and all script class languages are simple in nature. Ok though I have respect on python. Ok hardcoding stuff like c++ probably not that advanced. But by nature its multiplatform. Its what nvda is based on so its good for what it is. At 03:41 a.m. 21/07/2011, you wrote: Hey Willem, I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's not like this market has much competition, after all. Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that before getting upset at others for not understanding him. On 7/20/11, Willem wrote: > Hi all. > Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little > common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did > not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people > needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just > that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people. > > I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over > sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't > change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was > totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only > one. > > I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. > If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their > mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
thats an interesting viewpoint fred. I never thought of it like that. At 03:40 a.m. 21/07/2011, you wrote: I think after going back through some if not all of the messages in this thread that it's safe to say that everyone who contributed to this hullicost type conflegration was rite and everyone was wrong. Certainly each one of you is entitled to his/her own beliefs however if you have a problem with an individual I think you have a responsibility to take your thoughts directly to that individual. Hurling insults, calling names and downright rudeness are not certainly acceptible under any circumstances. I think and urge each individual to apolojuize for his words and actions and to communicate that to the moderator who left in such a huff. And please feel free to forward this message to him as well, there is nothing to be gained from any of what has gone on this morning, and much to be lost. I urge all participants in this brew-haha to look at what they have said and why they have said it and re-think their stance. It's certainly okay to have your own set of beliefs, however if you force those beliefs on others and refuse to accept that whether you agree with them or not, if you look at what they are saying, you'll find out in the end that all of you are right. Fred Olver - Original Message - From: "Willem" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed > Hi all. > Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little > common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did not > always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people needled > him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just that, an > opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people. > > I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over sensitive > about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't change their > mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was totally uncalled for > too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only one. > > I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. If > you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their mind. > There is something like a block sender list, after all. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the > list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Well I am not up with the play maybe because I don't read my mail all the time. I remember once or twice when I went overboard and got the same reaction on here. I don't post much, only when I have something to say. I have been writing posts now then deleting them because I get stuck. I am no programmer. So I don't know. Tom has never pushed his views out to anyone really, maybe he could have got a bit over at times but never that far. However my presence is quite low key. After what I used to be and do I try to keep it quiet I don't want trouble. Though as of late mota has lost interest. I have never got used to the new systems. Its not that bad really, on the forums at audiogames people forgot now were making jokes about the mota beta cycle. There is more i want to say, something about all the games from alchemy he chose to get and the issues with all the engines and stuff and other things. BUt I don't know what to do and how to word it. I don't want to recieve a punch in the guts. So yeah I have said my peace. At 10:44 p.m. 20/07/2011, you wrote: Well said. Remember the whole piracy issue? When Thomas decided to post a request for a graphic novel on the list and then pleaded it was a mistake? Well he should have gone then really because he was quite happy to threaten moderation or banning on people for posting pirated content. So he proved then he had double standards. When I proved this publically on list he privately emailed me and said apologise or I'll put you on moderated. He must have expected me to beg forgiveness. Which I didn't. suffice to say I got put on moderated but that never bothered me because after all said and done, I new that I was right and he was wrong and I wasn't about to devalue what I said for apologising for something that I saw no need for apologising for. Today we've seen yet another example of his true colours the difference is now he's stepped way over the line far more than any owner of this list can justify. He has to go now pure and simple. Even if the owner was to say no let him stay well who's going to respect him now? he's done his own damage really. Personally I'm not sorry to see him go. I new it was only a matter of time before something else happened and it has. oh well never mind he mentioned James north as well, well I didn't like him either so either way it's no real big loss. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
I know it, and I still appreciate you for it. What happened today was rather unfortunate, but I do think a lot of the onus is on Tom's initial statements and his reaction to others' responses. On 7/20/11, Willem Venter wrote: > Ryan, I remember that time. If you recall I was one of those who > backed you up too. > > In the end, Thomas admitted he was biest toward python and no insults > and name calling was required, just reason and statement of fact. > > On 7/20/11, Ryan Strunk wrote: >> Hey Willem, >> I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I >> understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to >> be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary >> because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a >> viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and >> those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to >> be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of >> those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's >> not like this market has much competition, after all. >> Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why >> people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to >> take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that >> before getting upset at others for not understanding him. >> >> On 7/20/11, Willem wrote: >>> Hi all. >>> Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little >>> common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did >>> not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people >>> needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just >>> that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people. >>> >>> I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over >>> sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't >>> change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was >>> totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only >>> one. >>> >>> I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. >>> If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their >>> mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all. >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >>> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >>> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >>> list, >>> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. >>> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. >> > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hi, While I had, and still do, have respect for the guy, I think that has been his biggest problem. While I have only become something of a programmer over the last few months, and that only with BGT, I can say that I appreciate the technical standpoint Thomas is coming from here. But he does tend to tak his opinions and make them facts most of the time...had that not been the case, I wonder how this might have worked out differently. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Willem Venter Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:46 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed Ryan, I remember that time. If you recall I was one of those who backed you up too. In the end, Thomas admitted he was biest toward python and no insults and name calling was required, just reason and statement of fact. On 7/20/11, Ryan Strunk wrote: > Hey Willem, > I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I > understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to > be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary > because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a > viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and > those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to > be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of > those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's > not like this market has much competition, after all. > Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why > people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to > take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that > before getting upset at others for not understanding him. > > On 7/20/11, Willem wrote: >> Hi all. >> Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little >> common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did >> not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people >> needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just >> that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people. >> >> I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over >> sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't >> change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was >> totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only >> one. >> >> I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. >> If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their >> mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all. >> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. >> > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3775 - Release Date: 07/19/11 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Ryan, I remember that time. If you recall I was one of those who backed you up too. In the end, Thomas admitted he was biest toward python and no insults and name calling was required, just reason and statement of fact. On 7/20/11, Ryan Strunk wrote: > Hey Willem, > I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I > understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to > be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary > because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a > viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and > those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to > be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of > those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's > not like this market has much competition, after all. > Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why > people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to > take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that > before getting upset at others for not understanding him. > > On 7/20/11, Willem wrote: >> Hi all. >> Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little >> common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did >> not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people >> needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just >> that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people. >> >> I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over >> sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't >> change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was >> totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only >> one. >> >> I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. >> If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their >> mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all. >> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. >> > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hey Willem, I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's not like this market has much competition, after all. Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that before getting upset at others for not understanding him. On 7/20/11, Willem wrote: > Hi all. > Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little > common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did > not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people > needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just > that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people. > > I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over > sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't > change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was > totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only > one. > > I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. > If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their > mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
I think after going back through some if not all of the messages in this thread that it's safe to say that everyone who contributed to this hullicost type conflegration was rite and everyone was wrong. Certainly each one of you is entitled to his/her own beliefs however if you have a problem with an individual I think you have a responsibility to take your thoughts directly to that individual. Hurling insults, calling names and downright rudeness are not certainly acceptible under any circumstances. I think and urge each individual to apolojuize for his words and actions and to communicate that to the moderator who left in such a huff. And please feel free to forward this message to him as well, there is nothing to be gained from any of what has gone on this morning, and much to be lost. I urge all participants in this brew-haha to look at what they have said and why they have said it and re-think their stance. It's certainly okay to have your own set of beliefs, however if you force those beliefs on others and refuse to accept that whether you agree with them or not, if you look at what they are saying, you'll find out in the end that all of you are right. Fred Olver - Original Message - From: "Willem" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed > Hi all. > Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little > common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did not > always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people needled > him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just that, an > opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people. > > I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over sensitive > about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't change their > mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was totally uncalled for > too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only one. > > I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. If > you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their mind. > There is something like a block sender list, after all. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the > list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Well there's no need to worry about that now, Thomas has gone which has been a long time coming in my opinion especially over the graphic novel piracy issue, so another moderator will be chosen and brought in to replace him. Life goes on things will return to normal pretty soon -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Willem Sent: 20 July 2011 16:22 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed Hi all. Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people. I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only one. I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hi all. Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people. I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only one. I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Well said. Remember the whole piracy issue? When Thomas decided to post a request for a graphic novel on the list and then pleaded it was a mistake? Well he should have gone then really because he was quite happy to threaten moderation or banning on people for posting pirated content. So he proved then he had double standards. When I proved this publically on list he privately emailed me and said apologise or I'll put you on moderated. He must have expected me to beg forgiveness. Which I didn't. suffice to say I got put on moderated but that never bothered me because after all said and done, I new that I was right and he was wrong and I wasn't about to devalue what I said for apologising for something that I saw no need for apologising for. Today we've seen yet another example of his true colours the difference is now he's stepped way over the line far more than any owner of this list can justify. He has to go now pure and simple. Even if the owner was to say no let him stay well who's going to respect him now? he's done his own damage really. Personally I'm not sorry to see him go. I new it was only a matter of time before something else happened and it has. oh well never mind he mentioned James north as well, well I didn't like him either so either way it's no real big loss. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hi list and Thomas, in case you are still there. I normally don't take part in such discussions, because they don't really concern me and I don't know enough about the technical side of programming to add something constructive to the discussion. But this is a point for me where I have to express myself, since things have gone way too far for me now. Thomas, what gives you the right to insult people, to flat out sware like this on list? The point Che made is a valid one, because you really often sound like you do things the right way and others not. This was not the first time that someone has pointed this out. Why don't you take the time to think about this instead of reacting like a stubborn child and cluttering the list with cussing all over the place? As far as I've seen, Che didn't insult you or anyone else, he simply said that he had a cirtain impression of the things you said. It's ok to say that you didn't mean it that way, but it cirtainly is no reason to act up like this. In my book, you just now killed all the respect I had for you or your work and I frankly had enouch of your childish behavior as soon as someone criticises you. It's completely fine for me if you leave now, shut down your website and vanish from this community. I don't think we need such an childish or immature developer who freaks out for the slightest reason. Sorry to everyone who is upset with all this, I'm too. But I also had enough of this sort of response to simple criticism. So, good bye Thomas and fare well. Best regards Sarah --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Bye Thomas, it's been amusing. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 20 July 2011 10:57 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed Hi, My Gods, man! You are really beginning to piss me off to no end. I never said Jeremey or anyone else was ignorant of their alternatives, nor did I mean to say they were lazy in the negative sense.On the contrary as you pointed out Jeremy, GMA, and Jim Kitchen have me beat when it comes to the number of games they have produced. That's an issue that is not in doubt nor is disputable. What offends me to the utter limit of my temper is the fact you get on this list, open your fucking mouth, and begin insinuating meanings and putting words in my mouth I did notsay with your passive-agressive bool shit. You want to preach about hurting the community like you are the voice of reason when you get on this damn list and insult me time and time again by acusing me of being passive-agressive. Well, you want to hear agressive then here is what I think of you right now. You are being a god damn, self-righteous, fucking, prick. You are a worthless son of a bitch to get on here, insult me, accuse me of things I didn't mean or imply. True, i might have worded my messages better, might have shosen better terminology like time saving rather than lazy, but you have no god damn fucking right to get on this list acting like you are Jesus fucking Christ and I'm Satan. You can take your god damn Visual Basic, Python, whatever language you like and shove it up your fucking ass! I've had it with you worthless assholes! Resigning the moderator position and this fucking list effectively immediately,. Consider USA Games closed as of further notice. I'm pushed all I am going to be pushed and you and this god damn fucking winy, bitchy, community can go to hell for all I care. You can kiss my ass. P.S. If you are offended and upset by this message you have noone to blame but yourselves for the months of having to endure with complaints about MOTA or Raceway not getting completed on time, and then having to have Che rub my nose in the dirt over what should have been a mild disagreement over programming tools and languages. Thank him for the end of USA Games and the end of my future partisipation with this community. I will not stand for being insulted or have my name or character slandered in such a fassion So now you have something to talk about that will keep this community talking for months after I'm gone. I hope you are happy with yourselves. Chew on that for a while. Goodbye --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hi, My Gods, man! You are really beginning to piss me off to no end. I never said Jeremey or anyone else was ignorant of their alternatives, nor did I mean to say they were lazy in the negative sense.On the contrary as you pointed out Jeremy, GMA, and Jim Kitchen have me beat when it comes to the number of games they have produced. That's an issue that is not in doubt nor is disputable. What offends me to the utter limit of my temper is the fact you get on this list, open your fucking mouth, and begin insinuating meanings and putting words in my mouth I did notsay with your passive-agressive bool shit. You want to preach about hurting the community like you are the voice of reason when you get on this damn list and insult me time and time again by acusing me of being passive-agressive. Well, you want to hear agressive then here is what I think of you right now. You are being a god damn, self-righteous, fucking, prick. You are a worthless son of a bitch to get on here, insult me, accuse me of things I didn't mean or imply. True, i might have worded my messages better, might have shosen better terminology like time saving rather than lazy, but you have no god damn fucking right to get on this list acting like you are Jesus fucking Christ and I'm Satan. You can take your god damn Visual Basic, Python, whatever language you like and shove it up your fucking ass! I've had it with you worthless assholes! Resigning the moderator position and this fucking list effectively immediately,. Consider USA Games closed as of further notice. I'm pushed all I am going to be pushed and you and this god damn fucking winy, bitchy, community can go to hell for all I care. You can kiss my ass. P.S. If you are offended and upset by this message you have noone to blame but yourselves for the months of having to endure with complaints about MOTA or Raceway not getting completed on time, and then having to have Che rub my nose in the dirt over what should have been a mild disagreement over programming tools and languages. Thank him for the end of USA Games and the end of my future partisipation with this community. I will not stand for being insulted or have my name or character slandered in such a fassion So now you have something to talk about that will keep this community talking for months after I'm gone. I hope you are happy with yourselves. Chew on that for a while. Goodbye --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Pissed off? Isn't that swearing? For which you have come down on people hard in the passed? What a fine example you're setting. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: 20 July 2011 09:25 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed Hi Che, My apologies. I sincerely am not trying to be obtuse, but have always strived to help others the best I can to the best of my abilities. My intentions were never to confuse, intimidate, or put down others for choosing something else. I merely wanted to state the facts as I understand them. That is where you and I disagree, and the source of this discussion. In a way programming languages are like which screen reader to use. A lot of it boils down to personal preference, personal opinion, and therefore is very subjective. I'm sure if you put a bunch of potential blind computer users in a room who are considering buying a screen reader and then march out a Jaws user, Window-Eyes user, Hal user, NVDA user, etc and have a public debate you would end up with an argument similar to the one we have now. Each would have reasons why or why not their particular screen reader is better than the other ones, and the people in the audience, those watching the debate, could be very confused during the debate. Moreover its hard to make any kind of decision in a situation like that because it requires practical hands on experience which they simply do not have to make an informed decision on their own. When it comes to programming languages we are faced with the exact same kind of situation. As a personal preference I tend to stick to C-Style languages like C, C++, C#, and Java, and since I obviously like them I am more likely to promote them rather than VB or Python which I do not like I guess as I am pretty vocal about what I do not like some people are confused, unsure, and feel as though they are being put down because of it. For that I am sorry. That's not my intent. I never wanted people to think they are "losers" just because they don't do what I say. I'm not like that at all. As for this entire discussion I'm pretty sick and tired of it too. I'd really like it if we can find some amicable way to settle this issue once and for all and put it behind us. I don't want to see the list, more importantly, this community to be torn apart and destroyed over such a rediculous argument. If that means I must resign as list moderator and leave so be it. As for your last message I felt it was way too harsh and overblown, and I found it extremely insulting, to say the least, that you chose to start this on the list. You could have talked to me off list, man to man, but no you had to flame, insult, humiliate, and utterally tare me down on list, and that is the height of disrespect in my opinion. I'm very angry, hurt, and extremely insulted. You are very fortunate I'm showing some restraint right now as I'm in a very bad mood. The kind of mood where I'd cuss you up one side and down the other because I don't appreciate being insulted publicly for any reason. I will not stand for it. Either you go or I go, but one of us won't be here by the end of this debate if we can't find some kind of amicable solution. Finally, you said I've been beaten over the head several times with your point by other developers etc. Perhaps so, but did you ever think I stand firm by my opinions. Maybe I say what I say because I feel it is the right position, the right opinion, etc. If you call that obtuse so be it, but you are not going to change my mind or get me to retract things I said no matter how much you insult me and piss me off.All that will get you and this community is one less developer. I'm right now considering closing USA Games and just walking away from it all, because I sure as hell don't feel very appreciated right now. I've had enough negative criticism from this community for a life time. If it isn't one thing its another. Sorry to say this attack was about the last straw I can take, and I'm just about ready to say, "to hell with the blind gaming community! I've had enough with it!" I'm sorry if people are offended by that, but its the truth. I'm sick and tired of people bitching that Mysteries of the Ancients isn't done. I"m sick and tired of people bitching that Raceway isn't done. I'm damn sure sick and tired of being beaten over the head by a few developers who get pissed off and bent out of shape over an impersonal debate over programming languages etc. Now, I am extremely pissed off, and I'm ready to just walk away from the entire sorry mess. So don't be surprised if I just don't quit like James North and go somewhere else where I m
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hi Che, My apologies. I sincerely am not trying to be obtuse, but have always strived to help others the best I can to the best of my abilities. My intentions were never to confuse, intimidate, or put down others for choosing something else. I merely wanted to state the facts as I understand them. That is where you and I disagree, and the source of this discussion. In a way programming languages are like which screen reader to use. A lot of it boils down to personal preference, personal opinion, and therefore is very subjective. I'm sure if you put a bunch of potential blind computer users in a room who are considering buying a screen reader and then march out a Jaws user, Window-Eyes user, Hal user, NVDA user, etc and have a public debate you would end up with an argument similar to the one we have now. Each would have reasons why or why not their particular screen reader is better than the other ones, and the people in the audience, those watching the debate, could be very confused during the debate. Moreover its hard to make any kind of decision in a situation like that because it requires practical hands on experience which they simply do not have to make an informed decision on their own. When it comes to programming languages we are faced with the exact same kind of situation. As a personal preference I tend to stick to C-Style languages like C, C++, C#, and Java, and since I obviously like them I am more likely to promote them rather than VB or Python which I do not like I guess as I am pretty vocal about what I do not like some people are confused, unsure, and feel as though they are being put down because of it. For that I am sorry. That's not my intent. I never wanted people to think they are "losers" just because they don't do what I say. I'm not like that at all. As for this entire discussion I'm pretty sick and tired of it too. I'd really like it if we can find some amicable way to settle this issue once and for all and put it behind us. I don't want to see the list, more importantly, this community to be torn apart and destroyed over such a rediculous argument. If that means I must resign as list moderator and leave so be it. As for your last message I felt it was way too harsh and overblown, and I found it extremely insulting, to say the least, that you chose to start this on the list. You could have talked to me off list, man to man, but no you had to flame, insult, humiliate, and utterally tare me down on list, and that is the height of disrespect in my opinion. I'm very angry, hurt, and extremely insulted. You are very fortunate I'm showing some restraint right now as I'm in a very bad mood. The kind of mood where I'd cuss you up one side and down the other because I don't appreciate being insulted publicly for any reason. I will not stand for it. Either you go or I go, but one of us won't be here by the end of this debate if we can't find some kind of amicable solution. Finally, you said I've been beaten over the head several times with your point by other developers etc. Perhaps so, but did you ever think I stand firm by my opinions. Maybe I say what I say because I feel it is the right position, the right opinion, etc. If you call that obtuse so be it, but you are not going to change my mind or get me to retract things I said no matter how much you insult me and piss me off.All that will get you and this community is one less developer. I'm right now considering closing USA Games and just walking away from it all, because I sure as hell don't feel very appreciated right now. I've had enough negative criticism from this community for a life time. If it isn't one thing its another. Sorry to say this attack was about the last straw I can take, and I'm just about ready to say, "to hell with the blind gaming community! I've had enough with it!" I'm sorry if people are offended by that, but its the truth. I'm sick and tired of people bitching that Mysteries of the Ancients isn't done. I"m sick and tired of people bitching that Raceway isn't done. I'm damn sure sick and tired of being beaten over the head by a few developers who get pissed off and bent out of shape over an impersonal debate over programming languages etc. Now, I am extremely pissed off, and I'm ready to just walk away from the entire sorry mess. So don't be surprised if I just don't quit like James North and go somewhere else where I might, just might, be appreciated by the online community. Frankly, I'm fed up with the bull crap and not going to put up with it any longer. Goodbye! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please se
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
I have to agree with you Che. When someone is told something over and over, by different people, it's harder to believe excuses. I don't want to get in to any type of argument, myself, but I do feel like I should support Che, when I happen to agree with him. I see the same thing he is seeing. When contrasting yourself with someone else, terms you use to describe yourself, and how you do things, implies that the other person does the opposite. This is pretty standard in the English language, so I don't think Che is reading too deep into the things that were being said. If 2 political candidates get up to talk about why they are better qualified for a position, and one specifically states "I pay my taxes!", what is he implying about the other guy? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hello Che. Well Che, one thing I will say is that I have noticed Thomas does have a tendency to often use more words than he means, and perhaps not necessarily the most tactful ones, eg, lazy instead of time saving. Equally, as someone who has been a moderator for a long time, i'd myself be rather slow to use terms like "passive aggressive" in a communication such as E-mail, simply because often such things are all contained in tone and intonation which is something you don't get. That is my thought as regards the actual dispute and what one person has said to another, and while not a moderator my previous reply was probably what I would've given if I were one ;D. As regards the actual issue under discussion, that of programming languages, as I said, I am rather finding it difficult to understand thomas justifications for using C++ over something more time saving, though i do see his point about cross platform if he wishes to include that. - Original Message - For instance, he mentions this garbage collector in net based languages, thus freeing the programmer from doing it. to me, that sounds bloody useful, indeed, as I understand the process, the point of bgt was to have C++ like scripting without the need for such things. It's like cooking, while there are some things like using fresh vedge instead offrozen that deffinately! are noticeable to whoever eats the meal at the end, others, such as buying frozen hash browns instead of making your own really aren't, and though there are sum chefs who would insist on doing everything themselves, if it makes litle difference, this ultimately seems to do nothing but make the customer wait. That being said, Thom can use whatever language he wants and hopefully we'll get to see the results of that soon when mota is finally finished. All this however, is as I said, quite aside from the personal qualities or choices of any programmer. Heck, Philip bennifall wrote Tarzan junior in javascript and admits himself it was not the best language for that, it doesn't stop the game being quite fun! Beware the grue! Dark. From: "Che" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed Hi Dark, I think maybe you missed my point in mentioning David and Jeremy. My point was that they have an amazing output in both quantity and quality with tools that Thomas keeps putting down with his various comments, and they certainly don't fall under the category of lazy, nor are they ignorant of the other programming choices available to them. I don't respond well to passive aggressive behavior, and if Thomas didn't mean to be insulting by using terms such as lazy and saying he does things the right way, etc, he should have, given the previous flags thrown up by other developers on this list previously. Again, to understand why this behavior on list is so upsetting to me and others, refer to my previous message on the topic of hurting the community whether meaning to or not as well as being obtuse. I don't expect to get much support here on list. Folks don't like getting in the middle of crap like this, and I don't blame them, but I'm a direct kind of guy, and when I've had enough of something, I'm gonna let you know, and again apologies if folks don't wanna hear this. Also, please note that I changed the subject line on this, although you did get this topic going, I did not hijack it. Later, Che On 7/20/2011 12:45 AM, dark wrote: Good grief! I never intended this to turnn into such an arguement. My intention primarily was to find out, as an end user, what difference different programming languages made and why, life concerns and legal issues aside, some games took far longer to produce than others. though I am not a moderator, I'd like to remind people very strongly that a discussion of programming languages is not! a discussion of the merrits or flaws of a given programmer. The one is useful and informative, the other is deffinately not! Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailm
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hi Dark, I think maybe you missed my point in mentioning David and Jeremy. My point was that they have an amazing output in both quantity and quality with tools that Thomas keeps putting down with his various comments, and they certainly don't fall under the category of lazy, nor are they ignorant of the other programming choices available to them. I don't respond well to passive aggressive behavior, and if Thomas didn't mean to be insulting by using terms such as lazy and saying he does things the right way, etc, he should have, given the previous flags thrown up by other developers on this list previously. Again, to understand why this behavior on list is so upsetting to me and others, refer to my previous message on the topic of hurting the community whether meaning to or not as well as being obtuse. I don't expect to get much support here on list. Folks don't like getting in the middle of crap like this, and I don't blame them, but I'm a direct kind of guy, and when I've had enough of something, I'm gonna let you know, and again apologies if folks don't wanna hear this. Also, please note that I changed the subject line on this, although you did get this topic going, I did not hijack it. Later, Che On 7/20/2011 12:45 AM, dark wrote: Good grief! I never intended this to turnn into such an arguement. My intention primarily was to find out, as an end user, what difference different programming languages made and why, life concerns and legal issues aside, some games took far longer to produce than others. though I am not a moderator, I'd like to remind people very strongly that a discussion of programming languages is not! a discussion of the merrits or flaws of a given programmer. The one is useful and informative, the other is deffinately not! Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Good grief! I never intended this to turnn into such an arguement. My intention primarily was to find out, as an end user, what difference different programming languages made and why, life concerns and legal issues aside, some games took far longer to produce than others. though I am not a moderator, I'd like to remind people very strongly that a discussion of programming languages is not! a discussion of the merrits or flaws of a given programmer. The one is useful and informative, the other is deffinately not! Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed
Hi Che, I'm sorry you took my comments so negatively, but I was not trying to put down, insult, or treat other programmers as incompetent, etc. Let me say that you are reading more into what I said then was intended or implied. I'm not sure how or why I always get myself into these kinds of situations, but it seems to me a lot of people jump to the wrong conclusions or opinions of what I say. All I can say is it is a lot of miscommunication between you and I. For instance, you said, "Have you taken a look at what David Greenwood has put out in the past 10 years with his incompetent skills, inferior programming language and low level work ethic?" Never in all the years I've been a member of this community have I ever accused David Greenwood of being incompetent or having a lazy work ethic etc. On the contrary I have a great deal of respect for the work he has done and purchased Lone Wolf, Shades of Doom, tank Commander, Time of Conflict, etc. In fact the only product of his I have not purchased is VIP Mud simply because I'm not really into mudding myself. Otherwise I have purchased and enjoyed every one of his products. Yes, I might not agree with the language and tools he uses, but that doesn't in anyway mean I do not respect him or his work. To say otherwise is a complete misrepresentation of my character, and would be absolutely false. As for the issue that I passively aggressively labeled you as a lazy programmer you are just wrong on that account. I never intended to say that. What I said was that there was a time and place for certain languages like VB to be used when the developer is in a hurry to get things done, when the person is on a schedule like a corperate environment, or if they don't want to take the extra time to build a game or similar product from scratch. I know why you are all fired upset, and that's because I used the word lazy, but what I meant by being lazy is simply not wanting to take more time than necessary to create a product. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and I did not mean it in a negative context although I do see how you could draw that conclusion. I don't know what else to say other than you took my meaning, interpreted it in the wrong way, and twisted it to say something other than what was meant. So here is the issue. You say I am being very insulting. That I'm putting other developers down even though I am in no way trying to do that. All I am trying to do or say is explain why I personally do what I do, why I might choose to use C++ over some other language, and the logic behind what I am doing. Sometimes that requires mentioning some short comings of another language like VB that I feel does not meet my personal standards or requirements. In such a case my comments are only directed at the language under discussion. That's a totally separate issue of weather I think Jeremey, David Greenwood, Jim Kitchen, or someone else is a decent programmer and should or should not be respected. In many cases I do respect the programmer, enjoy his body of work, despite being written in a language I wouldn't use myself. Why do you insist that if I say language x isn't the best language out there you immediately assume it is some underhanded attack on some other developer who uses the language? I honestly don't understand where you are coming from, but let me tell you how I see things. If I say that I don't agree with the developers choice of language or tools you guys immediately take it as a personal insult. Even though I respect what the developer is doing with what he knows or uses. Never-the-less you automatically assume I don't respect him, and that's not true. A case in point. You used VB .Net for Rail Racer. I totally understand why you chose the language, and I have nothing but respect for you as a new developer for creating such a superb racing game. My issue isn't with you or Rail Racer personally, but I might have a few technical things against VB .Net from a development standpoint. One of those being simply that it requires several extra packages like .Net Framework and Managed DirectX to be installed on to the end users machine to get it to run when I could relie on core C++ libraries and components to do the same thing with a lot less in terms of extra dependencies. Of course, now that .Net is a core component of Windows 7 that's not really such a problem any more. However, my view of the language and tools does not mean that I consider you or anyone else as incompetent for using them. If you think I'm saying you are incompetent then maybe you are being a tad bit overly sensitive, and looking for things in my messages that aren't there. In short, what I am saying is as people we often begin labeling others a certain way, and no matter what they say or do we filter them through those initial preconceptions. By the tone of your message you make me sound like some kind of puffed up, arrogant, self-righteous, self-aggrandizing, elitist or something. This i