Bamm Gabriana wrote:
However I don't see anything wrong with ns doing this - it
is only counting searches.
There is something *terribly* wrong with this. It is shocking that many
will not see this.
Netscape is tracking everybodies search terms and their *IP* addresses.
They now can assemble
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dman84 wrote:
its not high on anyones priority list.. its futured too, unless someone
has time to work on it besides the assigned bug owner..
I thought there was a patch ready and waiting for this. I think it is
being *deliberately* ignored because the Linux users in charge of the
bug don't
Christian Biesinger wrote:
I said you need not register it. The following page describes how to get
rid of the Activation Screen.
http://www.hmetzger.de/net6e.html#4
The activation occurrs *during* the installation. How do you delete
activation.dll, or edit all-ns.js *before* you install?
Garth Wallace wrote:
Since you've only used Netscape 6.2, which is based on a very old
version of Mozilla, and have never used a recent milestone, how could
you possibly be able to say one way or the other? Opinions founded on
ignorance are worthless.
Please, be careful Mr. Wallace.
Lancer wrote:
and for search... i stll dont know what looks better, SCH? SRH? SER?
SEA? :-P Any ideas?
Definetely, *SCH* ;)
--
Regards,
Peter Lairo
Lancer wrote:
The K may be is more for Netscape, is keywords.
Then, *KW* would be *much* clearer. ;)
--
Regards,
Peter Lairo
Jay Garcia wrote:
In order to be classified as Spyware, it would have to know your
personal information to associate with the search criteria as well as
demographics such as where you live possibly and/or other delimiting
personal information. And since this feature cannot do that it cannot
did you check multizilla? maybe it has that.
psmith wrote:
Neither option would allow any reloading initiated by the website. I
suppose I left out a default option for not altering the web site's
reloading at all.* THANK YOU FOR IMPLEMENTING THIS FOR ME SOON!*
Peter Lairo wrote:
Bamm Gabriana wrote:
However I don't see anything wrong with ns doing this - it
is only counting searches.
There is something *terribly* wrong with this. It is shocking that many
will not see this.
Netscape is tracking everybodies search terms and their *IP*
Bamm Gabriana wrote:
You may be technical about your definition of Navigation Buttons
but most end users would consider going home as navigation.
i guess 'back' 'forward' 'stop' 'reload' are like the controls of the
ship. Home is a place.
JTK wrote:
The source code that you are privy to doesn't. How do I know the
nightlies I download are built from only the publically available
source?
If you really want to be sure:
1: Download the source.
2: Compile it.
3: Download a binary.
4: Notice that there is no difference between
Lancer Charade wrote:
i guess 'back' 'forward' 'stop' 'reload' are like the controls of the
ship. Home is a place.
playing with the fullscreen mode in linux, I really missed the home
button...
--
Morten Nilsen, aka Dr. P
We are the borg^]dbdbiMicrosoft.
Prepare to be
Morten Nilsen wrote:
playing with the fullscreen mode in linux, I really missed the home
button...
collapse the menu before go to fullscreen. Works in windows... may you
can get too the menu in Full Screen Mode.
And like i said when i discoverd it, now i have a wonderful classic
desktop
Lancer Charade wrote:
collapse the menu before go to fullscreen. Works in windows... may you
can get too the menu in Full Screen Mode.
And like i said when i discoverd it, now i have a wonderful classic
desktop enviroment in this ~¡·%$'#¬¿*+ windows.
Yeah, I've seen your posts :) but
As are those founded on self-delusion. This privacy-invasion BS is just
what Mozilla didn't need.
But JTK, Mozilla does not have this feature so what are you
complaining?? Only Netscape has it, as proved by others.
psmith wrote:
Actually I did post this on Bugzilla. It is #109507, been there for
about 3 months, but no one seems to have addressed it yet. I think it's
a very useful idea to have scheduled reloading of tabs (and standalone
browser windows) as it would be very useful in active
You may be technical about your definition of Navigation Buttons
but most end users would consider going home as navigation.
i guess 'back' 'forward' 'stop' 'reload' are like the controls of the
ship.
So would you consider Go, Search, Print and M as navigation, too?
Home is a place.
A
Greetings !
I am running Netscape6.2.1 under FreeBSD-4.3 and this browser formerly
did display the item pictures when I browsed Ebay but now all that is
displayed is text.
What might be wrong and how do I fix it, please ?
Thank you.
collapse the menu before go to fullscreen. Works in windows... may you
can get too the menu in Full Screen Mode.
As I said, that defeats the purpose of the Home button.
Courtney Thomas wrote:
Greetings !
I am running Netscape6.2.1 under FreeBSD-4.3 and this browser formerly
did display the item pictures when I browsed Ebay but now all that is
displayed is text.
What might be wrong and how do I fix it, please ?
Thank you.
Those pics don't
i guess 'back' 'forward' 'stop' 'reload' are like the controls of the
ship. Home is a place.
Back is also a place. The Back button takes you to that place.
Home is a place. The Home button is a navigation button because
it takes you to that place called Home.
If you want to be technical about
On 03/09/2002 6:06 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
And then they will claim only technical information is supposed to be
posted there. Which is fair because on those groups, Netscape does
provide the bandwidth.
Netscape has nothing to do with running this newsgroup.
Again, you
On 03/09/2002 6:16 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
And Netscape 6 was supposed to provide dozens of users added themes.
What happened? Netscape pulled the plug on it.
That is Netscape shitting on its users.
Not the same as Mozilla.
Again, you have no concept or either you refuse to
Bamm Gabriana wrote:
My preference would be to have a Home but not to have Go,
Search and Print.
Go, Search, and Print can all be turned off in Preferences-Navigator
Reason: I would use it more often. Perhaps
some people use Print often, I wouldn't (my printer is busted).
Effective user
On 03/10/2002 2:56 AM, Peter Lairo wrote:
The activation occurrs *during* the installation. How do you delete
activation.dll, or edit all-ns.js *before* you install?
The solution you (and Holger Metzger) provide doesn't seem possible for
someon who just downloaded N6Setup.exe. :(
I
Jay Garcia wrote:
On 03/10/2002 2:56 AM, Peter Lairo wrote:
You can of course proceed up to the point of Activation and then
cancel it. Then you can rename the .dll file or edit the .js file.
What a (unsatisfactory) hack! :(
--
Regards,
Peter Lairo
Parish wrote:
Go, Search, and Print can all be turned off in Preferences-Naviga
dude, that was his point.
--
Morten Nilsen, aka Dr. P
We are the borg^]dbdbiMicrosoft.
Prepare to be assimilated^]dbiembraced and extended.
Resistance is futile^]dbdbdbiWe know you want it.
:wq
On 03/10/2002 3:19 AM, Peter Lairo wrote:
Jay Garcia wrote:
In order to be classified as Spyware, it would have to know your
personal information to associate with the search criteria as well as
demographics such as where you live possibly and/or other delimiting
personal information. And
Morten Nilsen wrote:
Parish wrote:
Go, Search, and Print can all be turned off in Preferences-Naviga
dude, that was his point.
Ah right, I see. I got the context of the sentence wrong. :-(
--
Software is like sex, it's better when it's free - Linus Torvalds
Anti-spam e-mail
On 03/10/2002 2:42 AM, Peter Lairo wrote:
Netscape is tracking everybodies search terms and their *IP* addresses.
They now can assemble a database of what you are interested in and *who
you are*!!!
You have NO idea who I am if all you have to go on is my IP address !!!
Geeze, where to you
You're so funny. You're saying if it's not one extreme it should
be the other.
IF THE DEFINITION OF TO DESIGN A USER INTERFACE, WERE WHAT YOU ARE
ASKING FOR, I WOULD ADD IN EVERYPLACE ONE SHORTCUT FOR EVERYFUNCTION.
Answer my question:
Among the following browsers:
Netscape 1, Netscape 2,
Go, Search, and Print can all be turned off in Preferences-Navigator
Wouldn't it be nice if we could say the same for Home? :)
Jay Garcia wrote:
On 03/09/2002 6:06 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
Netscape has nothing to do with running this newsgroup.
This server is a PRIVATE server located in Mountain View Ca.
Say, which server are you talking about?
For example, the server I am using to post here is located in Berlin,
Peter Lairo wrote:
The activation occurrs *during* the installation. How do you delete
activation.dll, or edit all-ns.js *before* you install?
Last time I used Netscape, it occured when I started Netscape after I
have installed it. Was this different for you?
--
They that can give up
Netscape Basher wrote:
Christian Biesinger typed:
Personally, I find that RealPlayer 8 works with everything that I've
tried.
Wait until you find a site that will tell you have to update your
player. Netscape should be giving it's customers the lastest stuff.
I didn't bother searching
Peter Lairo wrote:
I think it is
being *deliberately* ignored because the Linux users in charge of the
bug don't understand why it is important to windows users. :(
Could you explain why it is?
I see it this way: The PW protection is of course worthless. Anybody
really wanting to access
Peter Lairo wrote:
They now can assemble a database of what you are interested in and *who
you are*!!!
They can not find out who you are.
--
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Hi,
I am an independent artist interested in creating a
custom Art Browser.
I downloaded the source code but I do not know
how to deal with it. I do not know C++ just some
html.
Can you forward this mail to people who can help me
with the project?
Thanks, Genco Gulan.
=
Jay Garcia wrote:
You have NO idea who I am if all you have to go on is my IP address !!!
Geeze, where to you people come up with this stuff ??
If you commited some form of serious breach of generic ISP rules
(abuse), the IP would be enough to get your identity, but that's hardly
relevant
Netscape is tracking everybodies search terms and their *IP* addresses.
They now can assemble a database of what you are interested in and *who
you are*!!!
Duh... everyone knows an IP address points to an ISP, not a specific
user. Maybe you are not aware that an ISP can have thousands of
Jonas Jørgensen wrote:
[AOL modified Netscape's source code to spy on users]
If you really want to be sure:
1: Download the source.
2: Compile it.
3: Download a binary.
4: Notice that there is no difference between the downloaded binary and
the home-compiled one.
Let me point out that
Mike Hatz (Remove the SPAM) wrote:
Glad Moz doesn't do this:
http://www.newsbytes.com/news/02/175035.html
It looks like it's just Netscape billing for click-throughs, similar
to what Amazon.com Associates does for their members. Charge google a
fee for every time you use their service.
Netscape 6.2.1 is based on the VERY OLD Mozilla 0.9.4.1. Themes that
work in 6.2.1 may NOT work in a future build. Therefore, why waste
programming time and effort into something that may or may not work.
Same goes for Mozilla. Themes that worked in the 0.9.8 release may NOT
work in the
Where am i lying. this was said in this group. I'm just repeating what
was said. That Live connect is a tecnology that Netscape Submitted to
W3C which is used by current plugin technology to make them work.
The W3C has seen fit not to approve it. So if it not approved, it
banned. what the lie.
Bamm Gabriana wrote:
What's the difference between revealing your IP address to
20 servers (without netscape) and 21 servers (including
netscape)?
Maybe you right and I'm being a little too paranoid. I do see a
differnce though. Netscape has access to my PC and could therefore quite
easily
Peter Lairo wrote:
Netscape has access ...
by access I mean it is installed on my system and can access my
registry and addressbooks, basically anything on my PC. :(
--
Regards,
Peter Lairo
Christian Biesinger wrote:
Could you explain why it is?
I (and *many* others) already have exhautively and repeatedly explained
why a PW makes sense for many users.
Go see the relevant posts here and bugs if you are truly interested in
seeing why your oppinion is erroneous, one-sided, and
And it came to pass that Peter Lairo wrote:
Bamm Gabriana wrote:
What's the difference between revealing your IP address to
20 servers (without netscape) and 21 servers (including
netscape)?
Maybe you right and I'm being a little too paranoid. I do
see a differnce though. Netscape has
And it came to pass that Peter Lairo wrote:
Peter Lairo wrote:
Netscape has access ...
by access I mean it is installed on my system and can
access my registry and addressbooks, basically anything on
my PC. :(
How can it do this? Please reference the code in question.
--
}:-)
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
That Live connect is a tecnology that Netscape Submitted to
W3C which is used by current plugin technology to make them work.
LiveConnect has nothing to do whatsoever with the W3C. It's only used
for plugins, which have nothing to do with the W3C.
--
They
Alu wrote:
Hello Everyone.
I currently have my bookmarks strewn about several different browsers and
operating systems. Has anyone found an easy way to keep them synchronized?
None of the bookmark managers that I have found seem to realize that
Mozilla even exists. Here is my 'wish list'
Christian Biesinger wrote:
[AOL modified Netscape's source code to spy on users]
If you really want to be sure:
1: Download the source.
2: Compile it.
3: Download a binary.
4: Notice that there is no difference between the downloaded binary and
the home-compiled one.
Let me point
Bamm Gabriana wrote:
Go, Search, and Print can all be turned off in Preferences-Navigator
Wouldn't it be nice if we could say the same for Home? :)
I have to say that I agree that the Home button should really be on the
Nav bar, but also it is a fairly low priority requirement.
--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
This thread has ben going for a day or so in the Java group.
Java2 JRE not gonna support Mozilla officially...
Are any of you in the general/wishlist Groups aware of this. From the
original thread it appears Sun will not be supporting Mozilla
compatibility with
Jay Garcia wrote:
Netscape is tracking everybodies search terms and their *IP* addresses.
They now can assemble a database of what you are interested in and *who
you are*!!!
You have NO idea who I am if all you have to go on is my IP address !!!
Geeze, where to you people come up with
Jonas Jørgensen wrote:
Christian Biesinger wrote:
[AOL modified Netscape's source code to spy on users]
If you really want to be sure:
1: Download the source.
2: Compile it.
3: Download a binary.
4: Notice that there is no difference between the downloaded binary
and the
Many plugins That Communicator can use, do not work in netscape 6 or
Mozilla because they use Live Connect.
My understanding as stated on this very newsgroup is That liveconnect
was a proprietary code that netscape used. As such W3C would not
accept for inclusion in W3C standards because it was
Bamm Gabriana wrote:
But since you seem to miss the point about user interfaces (gosh
do I have to lecture?) A *good* user interface is not one that
accomodates each and every one person, but one that accomodates
the majority of people. A good UI is one where the end user will
naturally feel
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
Many plugins That Communicator can use, do not work in netscape 6 or
Mozilla because they use Live Connect.
My understanding as stated on this very newsgroup is That liveconnect
was a proprietary code that netscape used. As such W3C would not
accept for
Peter Lairo wrote:
dman84 wrote:
its not high on anyones priority list.. its futured too, unless
someone has time to work on it besides the assigned bug owner..
I thought there was a patch ready and waiting for this. I think it is
being *deliberately* ignored because the Linux users
Christian Biesinger wrote:
Peter Lairo wrote:
I think it is being *deliberately* ignored because the Linux users in
charge of the bug don't understand why it is important to windows
users. :(
Could you explain why it is?
I see it this way: The PW protection is of course worthless.
I downloaded a spellchecker for milestone 0.9.8 off of the mozdev.org
site. I would like to download the version for 0.9.9 but can't find it
on their site. Does anyone know exactly where I can locate it?
Thanks
--
Wayne Alligood/Amelia Island, Florida
Compaq Computer running Windows XP/
On 3/10/2002 11:09 PM, WDA apparently wrote exactly the following:
I downloaded a spellchecker for milestone 0.9.8 off of the mozdev.org
site. I would like to download the version for 0.9.9 but can't find it
on their site. Does anyone know exactly where I can locate it?
There is no
Jay Garcia typed:
On 03/09/2002 6:06 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
And then they will claim only technical information is supposed to be
posted there. Which is fair because on those groups, Netscape does
provide the bandwidth.
Netscape has nothing to do with running this newsgroup.
Jay Garcia typed:
On 03/10/2002 3:19 AM, Peter Lairo wrote:
Jay Garcia wrote:
In order to be classified as Spyware, it would have to know your
personal information to associate with the search criteria as well as
demographics such as where you live possibly and/or other delimiting
personal
Bamm, you are wrong. What you have wrote is a lie... you are
improvisating.
And i have to tell you this, because you seem to be totaly ignorant on
about this topic.
I will give you the perfect example, Photoshop:
Photoshop is in the top has its prestige not for be an easy to use
Christian Biesinger typed:
Jay Garcia wrote:
On 03/09/2002 6:06 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
Netscape has nothing to do with running this newsgroup.
This server is a PRIVATE server located in Mountain View Ca.
Say, which server are you talking about?
For example, the server I am
And it came to pass that Sid Vicious wrote:
Christian Biesinger wrote:
Peter Lairo wrote:
I think it is being *deliberately* ignored because the
Linux users in charge of the bug don't understand why it
is important to windows users. :(
Could you explain why it is?
I see it this
I'm not totally facted-up on how usernet hierarchies work, but if
someone like Netscape sets itself up as some sort of original source of
information for a newsgroup (ie. the main/final repository), then
doesn't that mean that they have to ensure that enough high-availability
disk space +
And it came to pass that Netscape Basher wrote:
Jay Garcia typed:
On 03/09/2002 6:06 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
And then they will claim only technical information is
supposed to be posted there. Which is fair because on those
groups, Netscape does provide the bandwidth.
Netscape has
And it came to pass that Netscape Basher wrote:
Are you saying there is no such thing as spyware Jay?
I'm tired of you and your strawman arguments.
We all know you're an idiot with a 2x4 up your butt.
Now run home and let mommy change your diaper.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-(
And it came to pass that Netscape Basher wrote:
Christian Biesinger typed:
Jay Garcia wrote:
On 03/09/2002 6:06 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
Netscape has nothing to do with running this newsgroup.
This server is a PRIVATE server located in Mountain View
Ca.
Say, which server are
Bamm Gabriana wrote:
[...a lot of arguing...]
Ok. I _have_ to ask. Why don't you just use the keyboard shortcut? (for
home, that is)
Personally, I've never seen the idea of a home buttom myself, but then,
I do use the navigation toolbar for a three-some of buttoms.
Conceptually, that's
Netscape Basher wrote:
psmith typed:
Sören Kuklau wrote:
On 3/9/2002 2:26 PM, psmith apparently wrote exactly the following:
Neither option would allow any reloading initiated by the website.
I suppose I left out a default option for not altering the web
site's reloading at all.
ahmetaa wrote:
did you check multizilla? maybe it has that.
psmith wrote:
Neither option would allow any reloading initiated by the website. I
suppose I left out a default option for not altering the web site's
reloading at all.* THANK YOU FOR IMPLEMENTING THIS FOR ME SOON!*
I
On 03/10/2002 10:17 AM, Christian Biesinger wrote:
Jay Garcia wrote:
On 03/09/2002 6:06 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
Netscape has nothing to do with running this newsgroup.
This server is a PRIVATE server located in Mountain View Ca.
Say, which server are you talking about?
For example,
On 03/10/2002 10:41 AM, Bamm Gabriana wrote:
Netscape 6.2.1 is based on the VERY OLD Mozilla 0.9.4.1. Themes that
work in 6.2.1 may NOT work in a future build. Therefore, why waste
programming time and effort into something that may or may not work.
Same goes for Mozilla. Themes that worked
On 03/10/2002 5:23 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
Jay Garcia typed:
On 03/09/2002 6:06 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
And then they will claim only technical information is supposed to be
posted there. Which is fair because on those groups, Netscape does
provide the bandwidth.
Netscape has
Peter Lairo wrote:
Christian Biesinger wrote:
I said you need not register it. The following page describes how to
get rid of the Activation Screen.
http://www.hmetzger.de/net6e.html#4
The activation occurrs *during* the installation. How do you delete
activation.dll, or edit
On 03/10/2002 5:52 PM, Christopher Jahn wrote:
And it came to pass that Netscape Basher wrote:
Jay Garcia typed:
On 03/09/2002 6:06 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
And then they will claim only technical information is
supposed to be posted there. Which is fair because on those
groups,
On 03/10/2002 5:29 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
Jay Garcia typed:
On 03/10/2002 3:19 AM, Peter Lairo wrote:
Jay Garcia wrote:
In order to be classified as Spyware, it would have to know your
personal information to associate with the search criteria as well as
demographics such as where you
On 03/10/2002 10:32 AM, Morten Nilsen wrote:
Jay Garcia wrote:
You have NO idea who I am if all you have to go on is my IP address !!!
Geeze, where to you people come up with this stuff ??
If you commited some form of serious breach of generic ISP rules
(abuse), the IP would be enough
On 03/10/2002 11:32 AM, Peter Lairo wrote:
Ooops, I'm being paranoid again (or is it just realistically cautious,
given all the unethical behavior going on on the net)? ;)
You have every right to be realistically cautious just like the rest
of us. There is a big difference between that
On 03/10/2002 12:42 PM, Jonas Jørgensen wrote:
Jay Garcia wrote:
Netscape is tracking everybodies search terms and their *IP* addresses.
They now can assemble a database of what you are interested in and *who
you are*!!!
You have NO idea who I am if all you have to go on is my IP
I hope you didn't read me wrong. I didn't say that a UI should
have a shortcut for everything. It shouldn't. It should only expose
what is necessary - other functions must be buried in menus or
in other toolbars.
If you read my piece correctly you would have seen that I agree
with you
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
Many plugins That Communicator can use, do not work in netscape 6 or
Mozilla because they use Live Connect.
This is true. It also is irrelevant to the claim that the W3C banned
LiveConnect.
My understanding as stated on this very newsgroup is That liveconnect
Okay you are the idiot who demanded the developers rewite some of the
download dialogue box since you didn't like how it worked and buggered
up the Mac build which caused Mac developers a week's worth of
fustration. ;) Thanks. Why don't you take credit for accomplishing
something other than
I RECOMMEND YOU TO BEFORE GO FOR A COFFE OR SOMETHIG SIMILAR
---
| I hope you didn't read me wrong. I didn't say that a UI should
| have a shortcut for everything. It shouldn't. It should only expose
| what is necessary - other functions must be buried in menus or
|
This is almost not worth posting, but if you check the full header this
newsgroup is hosted at secnews.netscape. End of argument!
Jay Garcia wrote:
On 03/09/2002 6:06 PM, Netscape Basher wrote:
And then they will claim only technical information is supposed to be
posted there. Which
---
| I hope you didn't read me wrong. I didn't say that a UI should
| have a shortcut for everything. It shouldn't. It should only expose
| what is necessary - other functions must be buried in menus or
| in other toolbars.
---
| If you
Basher,
No one is complaining that you do not recomend NS 6.2.1. What people are
complaining about is the way you said it. You came across as a basher.
To paraphrase: There is nothing good about NS 6.2.1. Now if you had
simply said Wait for the next version of Netscape, or download Mozilla
I believe the following article answers all your points.
http://www.mozilla.org/unity-of-interface.html
On 03/10/2002 10:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is almost not worth posting, but if you check the full header this
newsgroup is hosted at secnews.netscape. End of argument!
Yup, end of argument. This group is hosted on secnews.netscape.com on
port 119 (unsecure). The name of the
Ok. I _have_ to ask. Why don't you just use the
keyboard shortcut? (for home, that is)
I do. Alt+Home is natural when my hands are on the keyboard.
If my hand is currently on the mouse I transfer it to
the keyboard just to press Alt+Home (which uses both
hands). I know it's awkward but I have
Jay Garcia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED],
on 10 Mar 2002:
Id by IP is very personal Jay, if you got a IP that doesn't
change. You are not having a good day are you?
Oh really ??? Your IP is 24.88.0.196 .. Now, please tell us all
in this group how
Bamm Gabriana wrote:
If my hand is currently on the mouse I transfer it to the keyboard
just to press Alt+Home (which uses both hands). I know it's awkward
but I have no choice.
You must have small hands... :) More options are always good even
though I have never understood the purpose
it is available from 100's of servers. Jay is confused on how usenet works.
If the group was only available from secnews.netscape.com or/and
news.mozilla.org, Jay would have a point. But he doesn't.
Hello,
A newsgroup may be carried by hundreds of servers, but only
one server can host it.
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We all know Bundy is a troll. However I am disappointed at the
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points about Jay Garcia not knowing what he was talking about and
giving out bad answers. However, Bundy doesn't need to gloat about it.
The two of them need to take
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