Re: [Sursound] Bizarre

[Michael Chapman]

>> Sebastià V. Amengual wrote:
>
> That was one of the main cons. With the four distances that I used in my
> measurements (10.44mm, 23.49mm, 48.34mm, 98.35mm)
> if we wanted to cover the whole frequency range, we needed at least 3
> microphones with different spacing, and then the
> signals could be combined depending on the frequency. But as Fons
> pointed out, a gain mismatch has quite a big influence
> on the directivity, and self-noise is also increased. In our case we
> used GRAS matched mic's, so this problem was mainly
> solved, but I assume with cheap MEMs microphones the game changes...
>

Ignoring, for the moment, commerce : how good do the '360 degree' video
people want the audio to be?
Obviously 'good enough', but what is that?

To my mind you cannot make anything approaching accurate full-sphere video.

To make full circle horizontal images would require a specialised camera*.
Yes, you can 'glue together' a number of individual images, but the
perspective is actually all wrong.
A true panorama has _no_ perspective, as there is no unique viewing position.
(One can make true panoramas 'at home' with a video camera (and software).)
With VR one wants to be able to create views from any viewing position.
There is not enough data in a panorama to create perspective from any
position, let alone from all.

So it is all a case of what is 'good enough'.

We made two videos:
one
-a simple360 degree pan,
the other
-scrolling along a true panorama (with no horizontal perspective) from the
same place.
These were then mounted side-by-side as a wide screen video to demonstrate
the differences.
The result was disappointing. There are differences, but they do not 'jump
out -at (at least) me!

The Crossrail video I referred to earlier apparently used six individual
cameras to create a full sphere video.
That would seem a bit clunky, but reports are that the result is impressive.

So is our 'perspective' on audio vastly different from that of our
audiovisual colleagues?
('Gaming' is I accept a different matter.)
Is audio as clunky as their video 'good enough'?

Michael


*I seem to recall in the Nineteenth Century there was a tower on the edge
of Clifton Downs in Bristol that offered a 360 degree panorama projected
on the wall of a chamberin the tower ... bit that is a very old memory.

For an artist's view there are some interesting insights in Martin Gayford
(2011) "A Bigger Message. Conversations with Daid Hockney".
(At page 58 "I have said that perhaps the big mistakes of the West were
the introduction of the external vanishing point and the internal
combustion engine".  Quoting other material would be a bit meaningless
without reproduction of the artworks that are reproduced in the book.)








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Re: [Sursound] Stand alone recorder with built-in mics

[Michael Chapman]

>
>>

One of the presenters on the BBC's World Service's technology programme
"Click" just came out with words to the effect 'It's not 360 degrees, it's
four pi steradians' during a discussionof a (not) 360 degree video of the
construction of London's Crossrail.

Daring departure from dumbing down ... ?

Michael
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Re: [Sursound] Stand alone recorder with built-in mics

[Michael Chapman]

>
> This could get interesting :
>

Could I generously offer a new (candidate) SI unt

1 Chapman = 4 pi steradians

less whimsically,

1 Gerzon = 4 pi steraidians

the marketing people might be able to cope with that ... or maybe not ...

Michael


> If one works with an eighth of a sphere ( a 3D ?quadrant) then that would
> be "180 VR" (90 azimuth plus 90 zenith).
> Stick eight of these together then 8 x "180 VR" = "720 VR".
> I'm patenting this ... and hoping to sell the new arithmetic to some third
> world governents (and all first world ones).
>
> BTW isn't it 360 azimuth and 180 elevation and thus 540,not 720 
>
> Michael
>
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Stand alone recorder with built-in mics

[Michael Chapman]

> Hi,
>
> I presume that the name "720 VR" is for 360 degrees azimuth plus 360
> degrees zenith.
>
> Ciao,
>
> Dave Hunt
>
>

This could get interesting :

If one works with an eighth of a sphere ( a 3D ?quadrant) then that would
be "180 VR" (90 azimuth plus 90 zenith).
Stick eight of these together then 8 x "180 VR" = "720 VR".
I'm patenting this ... and hoping to sell the new arithmetic to some third
world governents (and all first world ones).

BTW isn't it 360 azimuth and 180 elevation and thus 540,not 720 

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Decode options for WX only

[Michael Chapman]

> I've been editing some old B-Format field recordings, one of which was
> made
> in a very humid climate where there were issues with the mic  (ST250);
> such
> that two channels dropped out completely for some the session.
>

That almost sounds as if you have two (of four) A channels. That is
straight outputs from two capsules of the mic.
If so then direct feed (e.g.  A1->-L  and  A2->-R ) s probably the best
you can do.


If the channels are W and X, then as David says,
though it might be worth playing with
(W + nX)  ->- L
(W - nX) ->- R
with n=1 as a start and probably  1

Re: [Sursound] New FOA recorder

[Michael Chapman]

> Looks like the same guts as the Tascam DR-701D? 4 plus 2, but more
> cleverly
> implemented, what op amps does it use?
>
> Bit gutted, bought the Tascam recently looking for a budget ambisonic
> recording solution that wasn't a Zoom H6, this F4 looks so much better in
> terms of design.
>

Neat it only weighs in at about 1 Kg (without batteries ...).

It has four XLR (3-pin) in's.
Now what can I plug into an XLR socket   . . . ah, yes, four one metre XLR
leads weigh in at one pound (444g).
Mmm.
Might have been more sensible to have an (XLR housed) CAT-5 input (orany
other multi.channel input) but can't see that appealing to the 'truckers'
with their enormous windshields, recording in (?)mono 

Mmm.

Michael

(Wonder what the price will be?
?>50% of the f8
or does monochrome LCD help?)





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Re: [Sursound] Facebook spatial workstation

[Michael Chapman]

Aint Wndowxs un peu oassé !

Have 'ad window's on 'inux for (?deacades).

Which cud explain why 'indpWs-passé(TM) is not 'indows(R)  

Michael





> Jesus Christ Jorn.
> /Lobs grenade.
> (;
>
> On 24 May 2016 at 14:27, Jörn Nettingsmeier
> 
> wrote:
>
>> On 05/24/2016 01:03 PM, Richard wrote:
>>
>>> Limited as there’s no Windows support yet
>>>
>>
>>
>> How is that a limit?
>>
>> /me ducks and covers...
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jörn Nettingsmeier
>> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
>>
>> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
>> Tonmeister VDT
>>
>> http://stackingdwarves.net
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
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[Sursound] 26 Positions

[Michael Chapman]

1) With thanks to Albert Leusink for his encouragement there are now
second and third order versions of "26 Positions" at
.

If anyone can check these on a rig, I would be grateful for comments.

There is also a bad French language version (no comments about Logitech
microphones ...).
(Uploading of o2 and o3 currently blocked by a server attack ;-((>>>

2) Thanks too to Aaron Heller for making the audiovisual version.
I hope to view it soon.
For the adventurous there is also "(?)60 positions" the four dimensional
version: A chance for some nice graphics, if YouTube will offer support  .
 .  .

Michael

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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Michael Chapman]

>

Thanks to Albert I found:


"A Perl script that that 'corrects' the headers on Wave Format Extensible
files."

It won't solve Aaron's problem, but could be modified.

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Michael Chapman]

>> Aaron Heller wrote:
>> >   https://youtu.be/eY9DMn8pgGA
>
> On Mon, 09 May 2016 00:02:49 +0100, Stefan Schreiber wrote:
>> Well done.
>>
>> Just one suggestion: As VR is a lot about 3D, you could think about to
extend the "8 positions" demo to some equivalent 3D demo. Which
probably would be "26 positions". (3 rings w/ 8 positions each at
-45º, 0º and 45º elevation. 2 additional positions at +-90º, i.e.
zenith/nadir.)
>
> Micheal Chapman did it in 2007:
> http://ambisonia.com/Members/michael/ambisonicfile.2008-07-05.2994956247/
>
> A newer version could be done with a HOA panner and voice synthesis.
>
> --
> Marc

Ouch, just said 'working on it'.

OK : "reallyworking on it" !!!

Michael




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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Michael Chapman]

> Aaron Heller wrote:
>
>>Problem solved.  Here's the YouTube version of one of the most
downloaded file from Ambisonia, AJH_eigtht_positions.amb
>>
>>   https://youtu.be/eY9DMn8pgGA


> Well done.
>
> Just one suggestion: As VR is a lot about 3D, you could think about to
extend the "8 positions" demo to some equivalent 3D demo. Which probably
would be "26 positions". (3 rings w/ 8 positions each at -45�, 0�
and 45� elevation. 2 additional positions at +-90�, i.e.
zenith/nadir.)
>
> Stefan

Happy to have mine used (with usual academic courtesies ...).
(It's on ambisonia, or I can send.
Am working on a HOA version ...)

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Advice on practicalities of 16-speaker half-spherical arrangement

[Michael Chapman]

> Hi Martin,
>
> HOA are not limited to icosahedra or only uniform arrangements (which
> exist also beyond the 5 platonic solids).

Details, please.

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Advice on practicalities of 16-speaker half-spherical arrangement

[Michael Chapman]

Firstly, I've never got beyond twelve (two stacked hexagons), so
ignore my comments at your _non_-peril ;-)>

It strikes me, that it all depends on what you want from height :

Your initial proposal was with the base ring at ear height.
If your vertical 'stuff' is equally 'up' and 'down' you'd be better off
with an octagon on the floor and another the same distance above ear
height (plan A).

If the vertical 'stuff' is both complex/essential _and_ all (/almost all)
'up' then a hemisphere sounds a better option (plan B).

Plan A is theoretically 'easy peasy', but from my experience still quite
fiddly (and time-consuming) to set up.
Plan B s far more 'cutting edge' (both in mechanical set-up, but not least
in decoding, ...).

If this is :
-(sort of) your first time
-in a few days time
-without a dress rehearsal
then I'd lean towards Plan A.

But, hey, with that sort of caution we'd never have discovered America   .
 .  .

Good luck,

Michael



> Thanks for all the responses. Much appreciated.
>
> I'll re-phrase the question in light of some of the answers I've been
> given.
>
> I will be using third-order Ambisonics. My aim mostly is to experiment
> to get a good sense of what is possible with Ambisonics with height. I
> have experimented successfully with 8-channel planar Ambisonics some
> time ago. My primary intent is to spatialise multiple monophonic
> (synthesised) sources using 3rd-order Ambisonics spatialisation, and
> the playback of mixed sources (spatialised monphonic and stereophonic
> sources as well as B-format 4-channel recordings.)
>
> At this moment in time, I have the opportunity to deploy (next week) a
> 16-channel array, so I would like some advice on a configuration that
> would be a good start to experiment with Ambisonics with height.
> Someone suggested that I consult the wikipedia page on Ambisonics.
> That is indeed where I got the idea that an "upper hemisphere" setup
> might be suitable, since I only have on this occasion 16 speakers.
> There is however no suggestion as to what a suitable hemispherical
> configuration might be for a 16-speaker array, which is why I asked my
> original question.
>
> So let me ask a new question. Given the constraint that I can only use
> 16 speakers at the moment, and that I need to deploy this next week,
> can somehow point me in the direction of what might be a suitable and
> reasonable geometric configuration to try out? It seems to me that the
> only really practical options here are two stacked rings (stacked
> octagons) or a hemisphere. I would have thought that the hemisphere
> would be the better choice, and in my scenario, a full lighting rig
> allows me theoretically speaking to have speakers at the required
> positions.
>
> Again, thank you for all the responses.
>
> - martin
>
>
> On 8 February 2016 at 15:19, Martin Dupras  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm intending to try setting up a 16-speaker Ambisonics array next
>> week in a small TV studio. I'm trying to figure out the practical
>> arrangements for setting up the speakers. I was wondering if anyone
>> with experience might be able to offer some advice or point me in the
>> right direction?
>>
>> What I'm planning at the moment is a half-sphere arrangement which
>> would likely consist of:
>>
>> - 8 speakers in a circle of radius 2m at a height of approximately 1.6m
>> - 6 speakers in a smaller circle at an elevation of 45 degrees
>> - 2 speakers at an elevation of approximately 75 degrees
>>
>> Alternatively, I would be happy with an arrangement similar to the
>> first 16-speakers in this diagramme:
>> http://www.matthiaskronlachner.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/loudspeaker-plan-observatory.jpg
>>
>> I've been trying to find out if there is a convention or "most usual"
>> arrangement but couldn't find anything. I'm not particularly attached
>> to the actual arrangement, I just want to find an arrangement that
>> will work well enough with 16 speakers. Any advice?
>>
>> The other thing I would welcome is advice on how to mount the speakers
>> to lighting rigs in a manner that is practical enough to offer some
>> good compromise between precision and ease of setup. I believe the
>> speakers we'll be using for the upper tiers will be Genelec 8060s.
>>
>> Many thanks. Any advice will be greatly appreciated!
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> - martin
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Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

[Michael Chapman]

Peter Lennox wrote :
>
> maybe we should sponsor some kind of competition, to see how much
> spatiallity can be got into (and out of) Dolby atmos.

Sounds worth pursuing.  .  .

Michael


Don't want to dilute a good idea : but if the above 'flies' how about an
annual prize for the film with the 'best' sound ... the media luv that
sort of stuff ...


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Re: [Sursound] Never do electronic in public.

[Michael Chapman]

> I just looked back at sursound mails and michael chapman had pointed out
> that the teensy has four channel audio support. >
> http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_Audio.html
>
> umashankar
>
>
Must refuse the credit.
I just participated in that thread.

Michael

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Re: [Sursound] 4-channel Teensy Audio

[Michael Chapman]

> The Teensy machine is a nice, very small, processor:  100MHz ARM Cortex
> M4,
> with a very nice Arduino-based toolchain.
> http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy32.html
>
> Apparently the latest update to the Teensy Audio Library supports
> 4-channel, CD-quality, input and output.  I assume this is with two
> stacked
> stereo interface cards, per Paul Stoffregen's photos.
> http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_Audio.html
> https://twitter.com/PaulStoffregen/status/688488355907022848
>

Just 'wasted' an hour watching the tutorial.

Fascinating!

Michael


> I only have one audio interface card right now, so haven't experimented
> with it directly.  But this could make for some cool small projects for
> first-order ambisonics!
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Re: [Sursound] OT: Opportunities for Study and Funding at the University of Birmingham / BEAST

[Michael Chapman]

> And yet another reason - with dialogue in glorious mono on one channel,
> dubbing for other languages is super-easy.
>
> Richard Dobson
>

Mmm,but if the dialogue is not understandable (loosely, 'inaudible') does
that matter?

To descend into bad taste : What's the betting the average ISIS video* has
better sound quality than the average 'Holywood' film** 

Michael


* never seen one
**try to never see one



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Re: [Sursound] OT: Opportunities for Study and Funding at the University of Birmingham / BEAST

[Michael Chapman]

 David Pickett  wrote:
>
> Which brings us back to why Blumlein invented
> stereo.  Yet even the IMAX version of Spectre has
> the voices all panned centre!  Concerning which,
> I sat in a good seat (very comfortable!) and was
> appalled at the lack of coherence of the sound
> generally.  I have heard better string tone from
> a synthesizer, and even my ancient ears found everything 10dB too loud.
>
> David
>

Yep, there is something very wrong.
I half-watched The Hobbit (or rather one of the umpteen films they've
milked out of the book). Seemed to be a black and white film (?low budget)
but at least you could hear the dialogue.

There seem to be a lot of films about dystopian societies where the video
has been reduced to 8-bit grey scale and the dialogue drowned by noise. To
me the dystopian society is the one that produces this garbage.
There are some quite good Anglo-Saxon words that could describe it without
inventing new ones.

Michael

Think I may have already told this one: Quite some years ago I had
insisted that the children watch videos in the original language _and_
without subtitles.
I caught them with the subtitles on.
They responded that the subtitles were in the same language as the
soundtrack, and they had them on because they couldn't hear the dialogue.
I listened for a bit ... and apologised.

Presumably there are special plug-ins that destroy sondtracks. It would be
fascinating if someone would (anonymously, I presume) come 'out' and share
the dirt ... ...




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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic on Matlab

[Michael Chapman]

>> >
>> > > Dear all,
>> > >
>> > > We would like to include an Ambisonic lab in our facilities and we
>> don't
>> > > have experience in applying it so far.
>> > >
>> > > We are thinking to use a big number of speakers (4th or 5th order)
>> but
>> we
>> > > are still looking for the best or most comfortable software to
>> handle
>> > this.
>> > >
>> > > Because of that, is there any Matlab toolbox that directly provides
>> you
>> > > the audio output for a certain order of Ambisonic?
>> > > Which are your recommendation actually to create a new setup?
>> > >

BEWARE Condon-Shortley (see section 2.3 on
) and
Matlab.

I think Jörn's summary shoul suffice for anyone familiar with Matlab ...
if not there is half-a-page in one of my Graz papers ... but I'd need to
dig for the reference ;-)>.

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

[Michael Chapman]

Fons Adriaensen wrote (Thu, October 15, 2015 6:47 pm) :
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 03:59:46PM +0200, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:
>
>> We've seen all those outlandish claims of magical waveguides that
>> are just fractions of the wavelength in diameter and yet shape the
>> sound so wonderfully that a 20Hz beam will travel all the way to the
>> moon (using the revolutionary VacuProof™ technology that will
>> finally bring cinema-friendly space battles). The problem is, this
>> waveshaping is not physically possible.
>
> Yes, it's a simple as that - not physically possible.
>
> If you think in ambisonic (spherical harmonic) terms it's
> easy to see why. Orders zero and one correspond to physical
> quantities, pressure and velocity, so these can be generated
> directly at any point. Higher order SH can't.
>
> Which means that you can have cardioid subs, or even
> supercardioid ones, but anything expected to create more
> directional beams will need to be of a size comparable
> to wavelenght.
>
> Can be (and is) done for open-air PA systems using very big
> arrays. But not in any normal room, there simply isn't the
> space to do it.
>

There's something I've missed here ... for several years (as Feynman
commented  there's a point
when it's too late to ask idiot questions, but here goes;-)> :

If X,Y,Z  correspond to velocity
then does W correspond to some displacement of (a notional membrane say
in) the aether in Jorn's vacuum of space;-)>

If so ... by extension (always dangerous) ... then don't the next five
(second order) components relate to acceleration ?


To rephrase the question with no idiot presumptions:
Why, in ambisonics, do we repeatedly refer to velcocity but never
acceleration?
(If one exists, then so must the other.)


I feel an idiot even asking, so harsh replies accepted ;-)>

Michael







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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

[Michael Chapman]

> Charles Veasey wrote:
>> Martin -
>>
>> To clarify the use of the subs within a tetrahedral array, it would
>> require
>> the subs to be elevated off the floor?
>
> At least one, as described by Michael.
>

I should apologise for the brevity of my respone.
The problem (for me at least) is that solid / three-dimensional geometry
is not 'everyday' (we live in a 3-D world, but when I leave my triangles
and rectangles behind it all gets sticky ...) and (worse) when one does
finally see the 'solution' it is so bl...ing obvious one forgets to
explain it.

If anyone is still pondering:

Make a paper/card tetrahedron (very easy).
Throw it in the air.
It lands (hopefully) with one face and three points on the floor.

If the 'points' are your speakers then there you go.
The fourth speaker not only needs suspending, it is dangling just over the
sweet spot ... ;-(>

(Of course some modellers place speakers at the center of each surface.
Not a good idea for the above.
(But for non-tetrahedrons it can give a difference: a cube has six
surfaces but eight 'points' ...))

Think I've stated the obvious, but it may aid someone, somewhere ...

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?

[Michael Chapman]

> Martin -
>
> To clarify the use of the subs within a tetrahedral array, it would
> require
> the subs to be elevated off the floor? Given the weight of most subs, this
> seems a bit difficult in practice. Thoughts?
>

At the worst/best ... only one needs lifting.

So just a bit of fishing* line for that one ... (?).

But p'haps I should let Martin reply ... twas his proposal.

Michael


*if you fish for sharks ...

> thanks,
> Charles
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Martin Leese <
> martin.le...@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
>
>> Charles Veasey wrote:
>> > Thanks everyone for the information!
>> >
>> > Using four subs was mentioned a couple of times. I've never used or
>> > experienced more than two in an array. What is the justification? I
>> assume
>> > that given a square room, you'd place one in each corner?
>>
>> With Ambisonics, using three subs (arranged
>> in a triangle) you can decode to 360°
>> horizontal-only.  Using four subs (arranged in
>> a tetrahedron) you can decode to full-sphere.
>> Note that, because the subs are sent only low
>> frequencies, you can use a single-band
>> "velocity" decoder.
>>
>> With a dual-band Ambisonic decoder, which
>> also handles higher frequencies, you need
>> more speakers than three/four.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Martin
>> --
>> Martin J Leese
>> E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
>> Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] [OT] Recording uni lectures ...

[Michael Chapman]

Many thanks to everyone who replied / made suggestions on- and off-list.

Confident a suitable 'mix' from them will do the trick!

Regards,

Michael


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[Sursound] [OT] Recording uni lectures ...

[Michael Chapman]

Sorry 'off topic' but as we have so many academic list members ...

A hearing-impaired student (not profoundly deaf) is having difficulty with
lectures and wants (with the faculty's knowledge) to record them for later
listening.

I was asked for suggestions.
(Why the lecture theatre does not, in 2015) have a 'loop' I know not ...

I've had several ideas, but all from 'first principles', so won't bore you
with hypotheses.

Anyone with bright ideas and/or experience please send details ...

Regards,

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Google Files Trademark for ‘360-Degree Spherical Audio’ Software

[Michael Chapman]

> It doesn't sound quite the most robust title, really - either
> tautologous or self-contradictory?
>

Strange, a bit like Beechams registering "Beechams Powders" or
Coca Cola registering "Coca Cola Lite" or
Renault registering "Renault Clito",
what's the point 

Michael




>
> Richard Dobson
>
> On 09/09/2015 18:01, mgra...@mstvp.com wrote:
>>> From yesterday's tech news headlines: Google Files Trademark for
>>> '360-Degree Spherical Audio' Software
>>
>> http://www.omgchrome.com/google-dynamic-virtual-surround-sound-trademark
>>
>>  Sadly, no technical details offered.
>>
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Re: [Sursound] another tasty lookingmulti-channel dsp kit

[Michael Chapman]

 Hello all,

 AD have a new dual-core SHARC-based evaluation board (long URL):

 http://www.analog.com/en/design-center/evaluation-hardware-and-software/evaluation-boards-kits/EVAL-ADSP-SC589.html


Looks interesting ...

The webpage won't give me a price (some browser problem ...), about how
much ?

Regards,

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Directional confusion between different B-format players

[Michael Chapman]

 I have a problem of directional confusion that depends on which B-format
 player is used.

Well it could be something subtle ... then again it could be one of those
classic coding errors ... ;-)

Get Aaron Heller's Eight Positions off Ambisonia and massage that
through your two bits of software  ?

If you can't get it, I have my own 26-positions (but you shouldn't need
that for a L---R swap problem ... though it will work just as well). I
can send a copy.

If you can eliminate a coding error ... then it gets interesting ...

Michael

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Re: [Sursound] Converting 16 mic array recording to B format

[Michael Chapman]

 Thanks, Richard, for your suggestion of ambisonia.com. I started there but
 was having trouble downloading the torrent files. (The internet access I
 have here (in a shared building) blocks torrent files so I need to
 download somewhere else then transfer.) Will continue to pursue this
 route.


There has been talk, on and off, of 'mirroring' ambisonia.com in a
non-torrent format (the files ar hardly large by 2015 standards ...).

It would certainly be a _big_ plus for some of us.  .  .   (?).

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] 3D Sound Labs Neoh headphones

[Michael Chapman]

 Somme clarifications on the discussion below:

 1. It is indeed possible we are not very clear in our web communication.
 The main reason for that is that we try to address the average consumer
 and we found out that it is very difficult to explain the various abstract
 concepts of ambisonic, binaural, 3Dsound ...to the general public. So far,
 the term  360° is what seems to best convey the notion of 3D Sound,
 even if we all know that 360° represents a 2D dimension in our
 scientific minds ;-). We are opened to suggestion for other option 

12.6 steradians, of course 

Michael

(a ,-) is not, i hope, needed?)


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Re: [Sursound] 8+ channel players ?

[Michael Chapman]

 Alexandre Rocca roccaalexandre@... writes:

 Yes, the device play 1 to 16 channel simultaneously without computer
(in loop) from an USB stick. see page 21 and 22 and the manual).



 Just to clarify the loping track count for the future searches,
 the AH ICE-16 manual does NOT tell that it can loop 16 channels
 of multitrack audio infinitely.


Have you looked at the WavePlayer8 (or two WavePlayer8's (8 + 8 = 16, and
all that) never done it, but had an email from the manufacturer saying
they are daisy-chainable) ?

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Oculus Rift Visual Demo + Ambisonic Audio Available?

[Michael Chapman]

 So prior knowledge is not simple - and indeed, dominates our perceptual
 performance. Sensory stimuli just serve as updates

Peter,
This must be why I find it so difficult to persuade people when I am right
and they are wrong  (hysteria, did you say?) ...

The nice thing, of course is that if you agree with my (/?our) theory that
is another vote for it, but if you disagree with it you prove it.

Apologies for the whimsy,

Best,

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Molding ears / head - materials

[Michael Chapman]

 The resulting head should probably be in Latex, how to take the original
 imprint ? maybe plaster of paris?

No way.
Unless you know exactly what you are doing you risk serious (very serious)
burns.
(Plaster produces heat as it sets. The hotter it is, the faster it sets.
The faster it sets the more heat it produces. And so on.)

Otherwise:
-Plaster of Paris (POP) bandages (which may be what Bo-Erik was referring
to),
-Alginate
are the common ones.

POP bandages are relatively cheap, alginate not.
Alginate is good for detail (which you probably don't want (e.g. a small
ear piercing hole!)), bandages can be but requires skill.
Alginate requires a supporting shell or 'boat', bandages don't.

Three main hurdles:

You are 'ronde-bosse', that is to say this is not a relief/imprint, so you
need a multi part mould.

The amount of hair (?skull cap, protect eyebrows, hope you have no beard
(sorry don't know Danish forenames, so apologies if that one is a
howler!)).

Ears are, in my experience, impossible with bandages, and almost so with
alginate.
You may need _medical_ silicone (industrial silicone is not recommended
for skin contact ... and I'd be very wary of most things near the auditory
nerve).
Those who fit hearing aids have two-part mixes for moulding canals.
Maybe do the ears by themselves and 'glue' them on a more crudely done head ?

Do contact me off list, if you wish.

Michael  (France)



 Or your mask making makeup department students should know :-)

 BR Bo-Erik

 -Original Message-
 From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Lasse
 Munk
 Sent: den 26 november 2014 13:13
 To: Surround Sound discussion group
 Subject: [Sursound] Molding ears / head - materials

 Hi All,

 I would very much like to mold my own ears or make a
 dummyhead-replica-of-my-head .. i'm in a theater school with a workshop
 where I can do a lot of things, but I'm in doubt which materials that
 would be good to use for this task.

 Any ideas?

 All the best,
 Lasse


 --
sound designer
soundjuggling.com
06 68 50 95 97 (FR)
00 45 26 84 44 41 (DK)



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Re: [Sursound] Molding ears / head - materials

[Michael Chapman]

 there are people out there with laser scanners that can catch an item in
3-d - kind of inverse to a 3-d printer (in fatc, that's what they use
them for)



How important is:
a) behind the pinna
b) the ear canal
?

Scanning might be poor at these ('shadow', etc.).

Behind the pinna seems less important that inside the 'bowl' of the pinna
... but if reflections off the chest are important, then I wouldn't rules
out something happening in the space between the back of the pinna and the
side of the head. (Not my field.)

Because of the potential problems of
-leaving something behind in the ear canal
-absorption of toxicants through the ear (maybe a bit remote, but do
remember one ENT guy detailing the risks of using antiseptics for
irrigation (though he had to countenance ruptured drums and generally
imflammed tissues ...)).

and, if you want the mic capsule down a realistic canal, and at the level*
of the real ear drum,
then,
the two-part putty that hearing aid fitters use would seem to be the
answer ... possibly the only answer  (for that part of the head, at
least).

Just thinking aloud ... there must be some serious gaps in the above 

Michael


* or shoud that be 'at the level of the diaphragm in the playback earbud' 
???

 Yes, your own head would be way better - for you - than a generic one.

 best way to explore - reasonable-quality binaural mic set, listened back
over good quality earphone set (not headphones)
 Dr Peter Lennox

 School of Technology,
 Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology
 University of Derby, UK
 e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
 t: 01332 593155
 
 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Lasse Munk
[lassemunkm...@gmail.com]
 Sent: 26 November 2014 20:56
 To: s...@mchapman.com; Surround Sound discussion group
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] Molding ears / head - materials

 Hi all!

 I'm talking with one of the mask-making girls, but just wanted to help
out a little bit - she was not entirely sure how to make an accurate
replica of my head :)

 I will look more into the alginate, latex and medical sillicone.. thanks
a bunch! :)

 Anyone made A/B testing with e.g. a neumann head and a replica of own
ears.. are there a big difference?

 thanks!
 Lasse (a guy by the way ;)

 Michael Chapman wrote:
 The resulting head should probably be in Latex, how to take the original
 imprint ? maybe plaster of paris?

 No way.
 Unless you know exactly what you are doing you risk serious (very serious)
 burns.
 (Plaster produces heat as it sets. The hotter it is, the faster it
sets. The faster it sets the more heat it produces. And so on.)

 Otherwise:
 -Plaster of Paris (POP) bandages (which may be what Bo-Erik was referring
 to),
 -Alginate
 are the common ones.

 POP bandages are relatively cheap, alginate not.
 Alginate is good for detail (which you probably don't want (e.g. a
small ear piercing hole!)), bandages can be but requires skill.
 Alginate requires a supporting shell or 'boat', bandages don't.

 Three main hurdles:

 You are 'ronde-bosse', that is to say this is not a relief/imprint, so you
 need a multi part mould.

 The amount of hair (?skull cap, protect eyebrows, hope you have no
beard (sorry don't know Danish forenames, so apologies if that one is a
howler!)).

 Ears are, in my experience, impossible with bandages, and almost so
with alginate.
 You may need _medical_ silicone (industrial silicone is not recommended
for skin contact ... and I'd be very wary of most things near the
auditory
 nerve).
 Those who fit hearing aids have two-part mixes for moulding canals.
Maybe do the ears by themselves and 'glue' them on a more crudely done
head ?

 Do contact me off list, if you wish.

 Michael  (France)



 Or your mask making makeup department students should know :-)

 BR Bo-Erik

 -Original Message-
 From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Lasse
 Munk
 Sent: den 26 november 2014 13:13
 To: Surround Sound discussion group
 Subject: [Sursound] Molding ears / head - materials

 Hi All,

 I would very much like to mold my own ears or make a
 dummyhead-replica-of-my-head .. i'm in a theater school with a
workshop where I can do a lot of things, but I'm in doubt which
materials that would be good to use for this task.

 Any ideas?

 All the best,
 Lasse


 --
 sound designer
 soundjuggling.com
 06 68 50 95 97 (FR)
 00 45 26 84 44 41 (DK)



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Re: [Sursound] a new UHJ album has been released

[Michael Chapman]

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/architecture-design-blog/2014/nov/07/microsoft-headset-blind-3d-gps-guide-dogs

Headset provides '3D soundscape' to help blind people navigate cities

To create the “soundscape” effect, the system uses directional audio
technology to make certain directions and the description of landmarks
sound like they’re coming from where they are actually located. If the
cafe is 10m ahead and on the left, that’s where the trusty Bing maps
voice will sound like it’s calling out to you from. You can even ask it
for extra information on local landmarks, like history or opening hours,
all plundered from the Bing database.

Michael
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Re: [Sursound] £100,000 for 3D sound development

[Michael Chapman]

Hopefully there is more to this than there appears to be ... ...

the _impression_ of a three-dimensional (3D) soundfield [emphasis added]

... vertical width ...

Michael

(I did my first programing at Hudds. Tech. in about 1970 ... ... ?Elliott
4100 ...)



 On 10/21/14, Martin Leese martin.le...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
 ...
 Here is a link to the entire (brief) article:
 http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2014/oct/3d-sound-development.cfm

 Here are a couple more links:
 http://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/october/100kprojecttounderstandhowthebrainhears3dsound.php
 http://gow.epsrc.ac.uk/NGBOViewGrant.aspx?GrantRef=EP/L019906/1

 Regards,
 Martin
 --
 Martin J Leese
 E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
 Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] �100,000 for 3D sound development

[Michael Chapman]

 On 2014-10-21, Martin Leese wrote:

 Here is a link to the entire (brief) article:
 http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2014/oct/3d-sound-development.cfm

 So how come Lee isn't on-list already?

Perhaps the _trained_ music technology students are ?
[emphasis added]

Michael

 --
 Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
 +358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] [OT] Dating ad surround sound

[Michael Chapman]

 Little tip I've found - ambisonics and discussion of theory of such has
 a strangely hypnotic - soporific, even- effect when used as chat up
 material...


OK I'm ditching the romantic novel for a police procedural ... and you've
earned yourself a role.

Dr L., the Crown's expert witness, testified that the victim could not
have given consent as she must have been comatose after the assailant had
explained ambisonics to her. This little known method of assault ...

The defendant would have been convicted had not ... yawn ... the jury
fallen asleep.

Michael



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[Sursound] [OT] Dating ad surround sound

[Michael Chapman]

the guardian
(http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/sep/28/seven-secrets-of-dating-from-the-experts-at-okcupid)
reports the thirty most British online dating profile words* ... and there
amongst all the monosyllables is Stereophonics (with a capital 'S').

... bracketed  between 'lecturer' and 'bolognese' ...

This must 'say' something ... ?

Michael


*Here, I compared Britain’s OkCupid profiles to those from rest of the
English-speaking world, and pulled out the words that are algorithmically
most British. These are the words people in the UK disproportionately use
in talking about themselves.
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Re: [Sursound] [OT] Dating ad surround sound

[Michael Chapman]

 As in I like the Stereophonics: they're a really good band, even though
 they're from Wales as someone with a poor view of the Welsh and who uses
 dating services might say...


I thought my knowledge of dating sites was total, but it seems exceeded by
my lack of knowledge of Welsh Culture.

And it looks like Auro-3D is not an appropriate killer pick-up line, for
my next romantic novel ... ;-)

Michael


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[Sursound] Piézo

[Michael Chapman]

Was invited to an art gallery over the weekend.
Some of the 'installations' were sound based : Various objects covered in
nails, with (?)ceramic (well piezoelectric, anyway) discs fastened on
them.
Disappointingly though there were many hundreds of discs, for each
'installation' they were all wired in parallel.

Set me wondering though ...

There are probably some disadvanatges (flat frequency response over how
many Hz(?), (?)limited amplitude range, ..., ...).
But price(?) and place-ability seem interesting.

Anyone had experience of these?

If so I'd welcome comments.

Michael

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Re: [Sursound] Splitting a 10.2 file

[Michael Chapman]

[OT]

As there has been some discussion of SoX as a command line file (channel)
splitter, I thought I'd also note:

You can (as with many audio tools) create slow (e.g. 0.01 Hz) sine and
cosine waves as 'audio' files.

What is rarer, is that you can multiply two 'audio' files, so you can
produce rotations on the command line ...

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Splitting a 10.2 file

[Michael Chapman]

 [?]


I did say 'OT' ... ;-)

But, if
sin.wav is a 0.01Hz sine wave, peaking at 1.0
and
cos.wav is a 0.01Hz cosine wave peaking at 1.0,

then

newX.wav = X.wav x cos.wav   -   Y.wav x sin.wav
newY.wav = X.wav x sin.wav   +   Y.wav x cos.wav

are interesting ... ?

Cutting and pasting bits of various sin.wav's/cos.wav's/etc. into a
'rotate.wav'
and
making files for higher orders are left as exercises for the reader ...

Michael


 On 5 September 2014 09:20, Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com wrote:


 [OT]

 As there has been some discussion of SoX as a command line file
 (channel)
 splitter, I thought I'd also note:

 You can (as with many audio tools) create slow (e.g. 0.01 Hz) sine and
 cosine waves as 'audio' files.

 What is rarer, is that you can multiply two 'audio' files, so you can
 produce rotations on the command line ...

 Michael



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 --

 As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

 These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

 Dave Malham
 Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
 The University of York
 York YO10 5DD
 UK

 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'


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Re: [Sursound] Splitting a 10.2 file

[Michael Chapman]

 ​Hi Michael,
 My smiley was meant to indicate 'nice one'  not 'yer wat??' now it's
 LOL.

   Dave​


If you don't put a beard* on a smiley ... how is one to understand ... 
;-))

Best regards,

Michael

* They don't take long to grow ...


 On 5 September 2014 10:30, Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com wrote:

  [?]
 

 I did say 'OT' ... ;-)

 But, if
 sin.wav is a 0.01Hz sine wave, peaking at 1.0
 and
 cos.wav is a 0.01Hz cosine wave peaking at 1.0,

 then

 newX.wav = X.wav x cos.wav   -   Y.wav x sin.wav
 newY.wav = X.wav x sin.wav   +   Y.wav x cos.wav

 are interesting ... ?

 Cutting and pasting bits of various sin.wav's/cos.wav's/etc. into a
 'rotate.wav'
 and
 making files for higher orders are left as exercises for the reader ...

 Michael

 
  On 5 September 2014 09:20, Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com wrote:
 
 
  [OT]
 
  As there has been some discussion of SoX as a command line file
  (channel)
  splitter, I thought I'd also note:
 
  You can (as with many audio tools) create slow (e.g. 0.01 Hz) sine
 and
  cosine waves as 'audio' files.
 
  What is rarer, is that you can multiply two 'audio' files, so you can
  produce rotations on the command line ...
 
  Michael
 
 
 
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  --
 
  As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.
 
  These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University
 
  Dave Malham
  Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
  The University of York
  York YO10 5DD
  UK
 
  'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
 

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 --

 As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

 These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

 Dave Malham
 Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
 The University of York
 York YO10 5DD
 UK

 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'


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Re: [Sursound] Splitting a 10.2 file

[Michael Chapman]

 nope at least not nuendo 4 - when you selcet split channels it says it
 cant do it - I know you can do it with 8 channel stuff. Audacity said the
 same. I will tr some of the other solutions on here, thanks guys ;)
 best,
 Gus



The SoX page http://sox.sourceforge.net/sox.html gives:

One use of the remix effect is to split an audio file into a set of
files, each containing one of the constituent channels (in order to
perform subsequent processing on individual audio channels). Where more
than a few channels are involved, a script such as the following (Bourne
shell script) is useful:

#!/bin/sh
chans=`soxi −c $1`
while [ $chans −ge 1 ]; do
   chans0=`printf %02i $chans`   # 2 digits hence up to 99 chans
   out=`echo $1|sed s/\(.*\)\.\(.*\)/\1−$chans0.\2/`
   sox $1 $out remix $chans
   chans=`expr $chans − 1`
done

If a file input.wav containing six audio channels were given, the script
would produce six output files: input-01.wav, input-02.wav, ...,
input-06.wav.

Which is a bit 'sledgehammer' for what you want (it goes off and finds how
many channels it has to deal with (something you know) and then uses a
loop to go over them (you could just 'hard code' your twelve channels)).

The above should be fast (no GUI opening, no attempt to do it at playback
speed).

Michael



 On 3 September 2014 13:28, Lasse Munk lassemunkm...@gmail.com wrote:

 hi sorry i'm not infront of my nuendo computer at the moment, but it is
 possible in nuendo. You can even assign a shortcut for it. Try to search
 around for something like 'nuendo split multichannel to mono'


 2014-09-03 17:20 GMT+02:00 Emanuele lamacchiaco...@yahoo.it:

  You could also try Wave Agent from Sound Devices, free of charge from
  their website.
 
 
 
 
  On 03/09/2014 12:25, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay wrote:
 
  there is also (on Mac) Scott Wilson's de-interleaver.
 
  http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/facilities/beast/research/mulch.aspx
 
  p
 
  Le 3 sept. 2014 à 10:20, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk a
 écrit :
 
   Some fine  command line tools there, should be easy with them but
 Max
  would be ok if if you're allergic to the command line, tho' I would
 use
  Plogue Bidule as it's more straightforward for that sort of task.
  Alternatively, Audacity will split to separate channels (works up to
 at
  least 32 channels - just checked)  but you might not wish to use
 that
 for
  mixer.
 
 Dave
 
 
  On 3 September 2014 04:55, Augustine Leudar gustar...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
   I guess I could just use max with an sfplay going into seperate
 record
  channels  - but I am trying to avoid it
 
 
  On 3 September 2014 00:54, Augustine Leudar gustar...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   Hi,
  Does anyone know any software that will allow me to split an
  interleaved
  10.2 file into its separate channels for mixing. I've tried
 audition
  and
  Nuendo to no avail. I'm on a PC at the moment so soundhack is not
 an
 
  option,
 
  best,
  Gus
 
 
 
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Re: [Sursound] Splitting a 10.2 file

[Michael Chapman]

 Hi,
 Does anyone know any software that will allow me to split an interleaved
10.2 file into its separate channels for mixing. I've tried audition and
Nuendo to no avail. I'm on a PC at the moment so soundhack is not an
option,
 best,
 Gus

SoX : http://sox.sourceforge.net/‎
7 Feb 2013 ... Welcome to the home of SoX, the Swiss Army knife of sound
processing programs. SoX is a cross-platform (Windows, Linux, MacOS X,
etc.) .

Nice and easy (but can be v. sophisticated) command line tool.

Michael




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[Sursound] [OT] The more bits the better ?

[Michael Chapman]

One of those : 'not so much what they are sayig, but who is saying it'
things :

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/21/mp3-cd-24-bit-audio-music-hi-res

which may, or may not, be of interest.   .   .

Michael
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Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...

[Michael Chapman]

 Sad but true...


Sorry, but I must take issue, calling Microsoft sad is akin to calling a
genocide 'unfortunate' !!!

 On 6/21/14, 12:08 AM, Dave Malham wrote:
 Oh, for cryin' out loud. Makes you want to weep - Microsoft reinventing
 again what's already been done and (most of) the rest of the world
 believing they're the originators...


 Dave


 On 20 June 2014 17:52, David Pickett d...@fugato.com wrote:

 http://www.technologyreview.com/news/527826/microsofts-3-
 d-audio-gives-virtual-objects-a-voice/

 David
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Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...

[Michael Chapman]

 Dave Malham wrote:

 Oh, for cryin' out loud. Makes you want to weep - Microsoft reinventing
 again what's already been done and (most of) the rest of the world
 believing they're the originators...

 I am no fan of Microsoft, but this seems a little
 harsh.  Quickly producing an approximate
 personalized HRTF using only head and
 shoulders is new, and potentially useful.


'harsh' about M$ ... I only wish I had Douglas Adams' words to hand ...

IIRC years ago there was a student project,
IIRC it was York (in which case Dave is being modest),
and (I hyberbolise) the project was the tech side for a concept to cover
the country with Tardi (?Tardises):
You went in, put two pennies in slot A, pushed button B, and out popped
your HRTF.

We could make enquiries as to which old peoples' home the then students
are now in and approach them for details, I suppose ...

Half in jest,

Michael

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Re: [Sursound] Advice on Setting up a Listening Room

[Michael Chapman]

 Thank you Michael and Richard. It's now beginning to make more practical
 sense to me!

 1. Just out of interest, when you upsample to Third Order Ambisonics,
 does that mean simulating the missing information?

I suppose so, but there are people on this list who could give a better
verb than 'simulate' ...

 Is it possible to
 record directly in TOA?

Various expt'l and less so (see (?sp)Eigenmic) methods,
but the practical answer is No it is not possible.

 2. Richard, you mention using the TOA Harpex VST plugin to create full 3D
 16 channel TOA. Excuse my ignorance, but does 16 channels equate to 16
 speakers? And does this equate to 16 different speaker positions? (e.g.
 placed on the surfaces of a dodecahedron, but not on the nodes).

Ambisonic B-format has (2n+1) channels for pantophony (2D) and ((n+1)^2)
channels for periphony (3D).
Thus Third Order Ambisonics (TOA) has ((3+1)^2) = 4^2 = 16 channels.

B-format (storage/distribution) is not D-format (speaker feeds).
B-format
--has the minimum number of channels (useful for storage/distribution)
--can be decoded to 'any' speaker configuration (again 'useful')

First order horizontal-only B-format has 3 channels.
You will need at least a square rig (4 speakers) to reproduce it. Many
would say it would be improved by using a hexagon (6).


 3. Do I require Jack if I am using a Blue Ripple Sound filter?

Leave that to Richard ... but I doubt it (not least as BR works on
Windows;-)

 4. Are AmbDec and Rapture 3D Advanced equivalent?

Totally ... holding breath for polite correction from Richard ;-)
Seriously, of course not !

 5. Do the speakers feed directly into the Motu Traveler (or equivalent)?
 In other words, if I hypothetically wanted to use 16 speakers (as in
 question 2), would I need something capable of having more speakers
 attached?

You need a soundcard with 16 'outs'.
IIRC the Traveller has
8 normal analogue outs
2 headphone outs ('LR')
2 EBU outs ('LR')
8 ADAT outs
The first ten are analogue, so easy.
Decoding EBU, no idea.
ADAT can be done with a ?150 / ?200 euro box.

Other Motus, you'll have to do your own research.

Ditto other multichannel soundcards.

But _if_ your 'repertoire' is fixed then a couple of Waveplayers might be
a lot cheaper ???

However TOA will need 16 speakers ...  (so if you are going down that
path (do you need TOA?)) then you will be chaining Motus ( 1.5 to 2K
budget?) or using some other soundcard (suspect at least as much) or
cheating with 3 Waveplayers (c.700).
(BTW, don't think anyone on here has chained Waveplayers, but that it is
possible was the anglo-german consensus of reading the manuals ... the
manufacturer does answer English emails ... )

Good luck,

M


 Thanks for clarifying things for me.

 PS Michael, thank you for your suggestion about getting in touch with
 Eric. I will look up his posts later today.


 On 9 Jun 2014, at 12:15, Richard Furse rich...@muse440.com wrote:

 -Original Message-
 From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
 Michael Chapman
 Sent: 08 June 2014 15:58
 To: Surround Sound discussion group
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] Advice on Setting up a Listening Room

 [...]
 4. I don't know whether I need to consider placing speakers above (and
 below) the horizontal plane for the purposes I described above. It
 would
 obviously be more realistic, but noticeably so? If so, how many?
 If you want 3-D you will have to.

 Minimum for first order is 8 in a cube.
 First order may not be precise enough for you.
 On the other hand with a TetraMic you will only get first order.
 However you can massage first order to higher order (?Harpex ... but
 IIRC
 only horizontal).

 There's now also the TOA Harpex VST plugin, which upsamples from first
 order B-Format to full 3D 16-channel TOA.

 7. I was planning on recording listening situations using a TetraMic.
 From
 what I understand, I would use something like a Motu 4Pre to get the
 sound
 into a MacBook Pro (although that all sounds not very portable),
 ?Tascam DR-680 Eight Channel Portable Digital Audio Recorder
 see the TetraMic site ...

 then use
 software such as Reaper with ambisonics plugins (Blue Ripple Sound?)
 to
 create sound files with the correct encoding on. But then I'm stuck�
 do I
 play those sound files through special software, or do I play them
 through
 something like iTunes?

 You need to decode them to speaker feeds
 IMHO on Mac, Fons' AmbDec is your friend.

 You can feed the output direct (via Jack) to your speakers ... or you
 can
 save it to a multi-channel file and play it back how you like.
 [...]

 To give you some more options: with our (Blue Ripple Sound's) VST
 plugins you can produce (and play) speaker feeds using decoders inside
 Reaper. You'd need Rapture3D Advanced for a non-standard/irregular
 speaker layout - TOA Decoding targets standard layouts only.
 Alternatively, the Rapture3D Player can be used for stand-alone TOA
 playback. Currently you can't use iTunes to play

Re: [Sursound] Advice on Setting up a Listening Room

[Michael Chapman]

 I am new to the area of ambisonics and sound fields, so please forgive me
 if my questions are naive.

 I am looking to create a Listening Room to simulate different real life
 listening situations as realistically as possible. The purpose is for
 testing and optimizing modern day hearing technology

There's a list member, Eric, who must be one or two years ahead of you 
(though IIRC mainly cochlear implants).
Suggest you look up his posts and/or contact him.


 2. In addition to using Ambisonics, I also need a speaker array that would
 also allow me to do localization testing using a signal from a single
 speaker at a time.
In principle you can create a virtual speaker 'anywhere' with ambisonics.
So you need to weigh up virtual v. real as a technique

 3. If I did have too many horizontal speakers, I imagine I don't
 necessarily have to use all the speakers for Ambisonic playback?
No, nobody need know they are there ;-)
Indeed I've seen a room where the speakers (in a horizontal band) were
behind 'cloth' in the wall ... so no risk of 'clues' to the listener.

 4. I don't know whether I need to consider placing speakers above (and
 below) the horizontal plane for the purposes I described above. It would
 obviously be more realistic, but noticeably so? If so, how many?
If you want 3-D you will have to.

Minimum for first order is 8 in a cube.
First order may not be precise enough for you.
On the other hand with a TetraMic you will only get first order.
However you can massage first order to higher order (?Harpex ... but IIRC
only horizontal).


 7. I was planning on recording listening situations using a TetraMic. From
 what I understand, I would use something like a Motu 4Pre to get the sound
 into a MacBook Pro (although that all sounds not very portable),
?Tascam DR-680 Eight Channel Portable Digital Audio Recorder
see the TetraMic site ...

 then use
 software such as Reaper with ambisonics plugins (Blue Ripple Sound?) to
 create sound files with the correct encoding on. But then I'm stuck� do I
 play those sound files through special software, or do I play them through
 something like iTunes?

You need to decode them to speaker feeds
IMHO on Mac, Fons' AmbDec is your friend.

You can feed the output direct (via Jack) to your speakers ... or you can
save it to a multi-channel file and play it back how you like.

The Motu Traveller allows for 8 channels playback direct, or if you use
ADAT as well and a (?cheap Boehringer) ADAT to analogue 'card' you can 16
... you can a few more (I seem to remember) by using the headphone 'out'
and a few other sockets it has 


Look at Digtal Room Correction (which does not correct the room, but the
'corrects' the sound _for_ the room).
Jörn Nettingsmeier has a nice slide show on the Web, on that.


Just a few quick unresearched comments on a Sunday afternoon.
Don't invest money based on them ;-)
But am sure that other list members will 'qualify' anything that is a bit
dubious ...

Good luck,

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] old Ambisonia links -

[Michael Chapman]

 On 2014-05-13, J�rn Nettingsmeier wrote:

 marc, i'd rather mirror the .amb files directly on my server than
 invest the time to maintain a permanent tracking seeder (which i used
 to do many years ago, but it kept breaking). let me know if you need
 the space and/or bandwidth.

 If you give me the permission, I could ask some Pirate Party people
 about establishing a tracker too.
 --

Jörn and I were suggesting _no_ seeds.

Rather that the ability to simply download would enhance 'outreach' (and
more bluntly, not be such a f-ing pain).

Jörn has offered to solve the bandwidth problem ( _if_ there is one).

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] old Ambisonia links -

[Michael Chapman]

 Jörn,

 Thanks a lot for your generous offer. Last December, Ben Bloomberg also
 offered hosting at MIT. So I'm thinking about a hosting model with
 HTTP mirrors for more than 35Gb...

 With the HTTP mirroring model, there could be a possibility to
 auto-host some files. Similarly to the BitTorrent model, the idea
 would be to encourage participation in the mirroring effort, and let a
 download manager decide what's the best source. Since there are ways to
 setup a hybrid system with BitTorrent and direct HTTP downloads, maybe
 it'd possible to benefit from both protocols, for robustness.


It's over ten years since I did anything like this ... but

if you keep ambisonia.com and/or www.ambisonia.com at York

and create downloads.ambisonia.com
then there is someway to use DNS to distribute calls to
downloads.ambisonia.com between MIT and Jörn (and York?).

The quick and dirty way is (if you are using Apache) is not to use DNS but
to set up conditional redirects in the apache config file. (Conditional on
geographic origin of client and/or estimated server loads.)

DNS has the advantage that it allows a list of IP addreses in suggested
order, so is more robust (if one of the two/three servers is playing up).

All you need is root access to the York server ;-)

Do contact me direct if you want me to dig out some stuff, rather than top
of the head memories ...

Michael

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Re: [Sursound] format

[Michael Chapman]

 Does anybody know why I am receiving (only from
 this list and not from any other listservers)
 postings without any line-breaks?  I find them impossible to read.

Line breaks is different in each of Mac / Linux / the other one.
Just a guess   .  .  .

Michael

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Re: [Sursound] format

[Michael Chapman]

 I am on Window$ 7.  Using Eudora for email.  The problem is not in
 evidence with every posting, but it has been much worse recently.

 David

 At 11:39 13-05-14, Michael Chapman wrote:
   Does anybody know why I am receiving (only from
   this list and not from any other listservers)
   postings without any line-breaks?  I find them impossible to read.
  
  Line breaks is different in each of Mac / Linux / the other one.
  Just a guess   .  .  .
  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_breaking_character#Representations may
help ... or may besides being a wee bit technical also be a pigmented
herring ... (!).

I have noticed an increasing problem, too, but not with Sursound ...

Must be someone more technical than I, out there ... 

Michael

PS, Have sent this direct and via the list ... to see if the two versions
vary.
Sent from our server (Linux), but the mail software may do 'clever'
compensations to try and be âll things to all men' 


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Re: [Sursound] old Ambisonia links -

[Michael Chapman]

 Hi Jim.

 I'm the maintainer for Ambisonia.

 Please contact me in person

I know you said the List was not the best place for 'helpdesk', but I
thought this one might benefit from a wider audience.

Was ADSL the deathknell for BitTorrent (for legit usages),
and
will fibre-optic be its death ?

A partisan comment as I would love to be able to _just_ download (and
refer newbies to other sites such as http://ambisonic.info/audio.html,
to avoid one more hurdle).

Michael

Half the photos my kids attach to emails seem to have file sizes bigger
than third-order full symphonies, these days ;-)


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Re: [Sursound] Sound localisation techniques

[Michael Chapman]

 Hello all,

 I'm looking into experimenting with live 3D panning of sound tracks from a
 DAW. The tracks will not be in B-format as I do not have a soundfield mic.
 I have 8 identical M-audio AV 40 speakers which I will be driving through
 an interface and Max/MSP code (
 http://www.icst.net/research/projects/ambisonics-tools/).

The comment has already been made: You don't need a mic to make digital
audio ...
For ambisonics, anything other than first order must (almost) certainly
have been created (with or without mics).

 I'm primarily interested in taking a mix for my speaker array and being
 able to tilt / rotate / reflect etc. all of the tracks simultaneously.

That sounds like ambisonics,
but I would (for ambisonics) phrase it as: Making a mix fo any speaker
array, being able to tilt, etc., and being able to listen to the result on
'any' array ... including my own.

 - Any advice on speaker placement for 8 speakers in a small bedroom? I'm
 currently thinking the 6 corners of a cube and then left and right on the
 wall at ear level.

Think we'd need to see the bedroom  or at least hear about it 

Eight sounds like the corners of a cube (you mention six ... that would be
the faces, and not as 'simple' to deal with (nor (?) anything like as
good)).

 - Are ambisonics techniques the best/only way to do this given that I
 don't
 have B-format?

Everyone with a computer 'has' B-format ;-)

 - Any references that would be good for a newbie to read? My background is
 in math and programming, so technical material is fine.


Good luck,

Michael

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Re: [Sursound] Inexpensive USB multichannel sound card

[Michael Chapman]

 On 03/31/2014 09:14 AM, Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote:
 Don't ignore the Chinese :-)

 http://www.dx.com/p/usb-2-0-7-1ch-optical-sound-card-audio-adapter-white-orange-172008#.UzkSO4XtX5w
 20 usd inc postage to EU
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/USB-2-0-CH-3D-7-1-Audio-8-Channel-Sound-Card-External-Sound-Pocket-USR71/660029014.html
 25 usd inc Postage to EU

 Delivery time is often 3 to 4 weeks to Sweden.
 But note that they are only 16 bit cards.


 also note that import duty is very likely not included, and that you may
 have to wade through quite a bit of paperwork before you can actually
 pick up your delivery.


I've never been clobbered for import duties excepting VAT (TVA/MWT).
In France on small things that only seems to hit one in every two or three
times.

In Switzerland, I hear, where (IIRC) VAT is 8% as againt 20% in France
(and something not far off in the rest of the EU) you --this is very
Swiss-- get charged every time.

Vive la difference!

Suspect the Big Canton* may be more like Switzweland, Jörn?

Michael

* affectionate(?) Swiss name for the geographical area north of
Switzerland ...

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Re: [Sursound] Question about UHJ

[Michael Chapman]

 Hi,

 Thanks everybody for your well-considered comments.
 The reason for going for a 2-channel format is compatibility with
 distribution media formats (CD) - and I suppose it will mostly be listened
 to without a decoder.
 The possibility of recovering (2D) B-Format can be very useful, I think
 (although apparently not 100% possible).


My (perhaps idealistic) point, was that if you create as B-format ... then
you can export as UHJ, as Blumlein stereo, as ..., ..., ... (and you have
B-format in archive, _if_ you ever get the chanve to listen to / play
that).

But I accept that may be more than you want to do ...

Michael


 Cheers,
 Marlon

 On Mar 15, 2014, at 12:00 , sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote:

 Message: 2
 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:08:22 - (GMT)
 From: Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com
 To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] Question about UHJ
 Message-ID: 54597.109.213.106.225.1394813302.m...@i-a-a.ch
 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=UTF-8

 There is another point - you can recover the B-Format horizontal
 information from UHj - so, notionally, using Bruce Wiggins' irregular
 decoding, you could display it on 5.1


 Why not make a three/four track ambisonic (B-format) master and make
 derivatives (such as UHJ) from that ?

 Marie-Antoinette ... ur no, sorry, Michael

 Dr. Peter Lennox

 School of Technology,
 Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology
 University of Derby, UK
 e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
 t: 01332 593155

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Re: [Sursound] Question about UHJ

[Michael Chapman]

 There is another point - you can recover the B-Format horizontal
 information from UHj - so, notionally, using Bruce Wiggins' irregular
 decoding, you could display it on 5.1


Why not make a three/four track ambisonic (B-format) master and make
derivatives (such as UHJ) from that ?

Marie-Antoinette ... ur no, sorry, Michael

 Dr. Peter Lennox

 School of Technology,
 Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology
 University of Derby, UK
 e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
 t: 01332 593155


 -Original Message-
 From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of J�rn
 Nettingsmeier
 Sent: 14 March 2014 10:48
 To: Surround Sound discussion group
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] Question about UHJ

 On 03/14/2014 03:48 AM, Schumacher Marlon wrote:
 Dear list,

 A friend of mine was planning to encode a recording of his
 instrumental music (appr. 20 mic feeds) into 2-channel (2D) UHJ format
 and was strongly discouraged as UHJ would introduce nasty phasing
 effects. Since there should be some hundred 2-channel UHJ LPs and CDs
 (which should be stereo compatible) I wonder if this is true?
 I read about the stereo-widening effect when listened to undecoded
 (which was sometimes purposely used asa production effect), but wasn't
 aware of these phasing artefacts.

 I'd be happy about any advice/comments.

 they are very obvious for sources far to the sides and in the rear, but if
 you balance them properly, the overall effect to me is very pleasing.
 a mistake i once made: a jazz recording, musicians surrounding the
 tetramic, turned so that the singer is due north. the double bass ended up
 at 150� to the left, which meant it caused large amounts of negative
 correlation when listened to in UHJ, and lost quite some oomph. don't do
 that. if you can keep all your important sources between, say, +/-55�, i
 find UHJ to be very satisfactory, and in fact it makes mixing past the
 usual stereo boundary quite easy. but as with all real-life audio
 solutions: expect miracles and be disappointed, use the wider soundstage
 subtly and economically, and you just added a new hue to your mixing
 palette.

 if you know your target will always be stereo, then UHJ is a slightly
 sub-optimal solution - hand-crafted stereo will be better in corner cases,
 but that takes a lot of care. if you are targetting surround and stereo is
 needed for compatibility, then UHJ is a very reasonable 95% solution, and
 its sound may even be preferred by some (me included), but for every
 person who loves it you will find another who hates it.


 --
 J�rn Nettingsmeier
 Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

 Meister f�r Veranstaltungstechnik (B�hne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT

 http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: [Sursound] Connecticut could be 1st state to curb loud movies... that exceeded 85 decibels

[Michael Chapman]

 http://news.msn.com/us/connecticut-could-be-1st-state-to-curb-loud-movies

 NEW HAVEN, Conn. (AP) - Connecticut could become the first state to curb
 loud movies under proposed legislation that's drawing opposition from the
 Motion Picture Association of America.

 The legislature's Public Safety and Security Committee is considering the
 bill, which would prevent theaters from showing a film or preview that
 exceeded 85 decibels. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and
 Health recommends noise should be kept below 85 decibels for workers for
 eight hours to minimize hearing loss.


But there is a long history of (US) state legislatures 'doing things'

--Indiana : pi=3.2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFNjA9LOPsg

--South Dakata : astrology, thermology
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, by the House of Representatives of the
Eighty-fifth Legislature of the State of South Dakota, the Senate
concurring therein, that the South Dakota Legislature urges that
instruction in the public schools relating to global warming include the
following:
(1) That global warming is a scientific theory rather than a proven fact;
 (2) That there are a variety of climatological, meteorological,
astrological, thermological, cosmological, and ecological dynamics that
can effect  world weather phenomena and that the significance and
interrelativity of these factors is largely speculative; and
[etc.]
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/02/25/83917/south-dakota-legislators-tell-schools-to-teach-astrological-explanation-for-global-warming/

So ... Connecticut may have an []affect ... or not ... it's all
speculative ...

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)

[Michael Chapman]

 And now, 4-D sound

 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/

 X, Y, Z  and...

   Dave


Excellent, I've always liked the concept of kiosk/cabin (as in telephone)
individual immersion audio.

... I am presuming that 4DSOUND is a unique installation, 256 square
meters is a typo for '4DSOUND is a unique installation, 256 hypercubic
metres' ... which gives a space of 4m x 4m x 4m x 4m.

Michael




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Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)

[Michael Chapman]

 There is no sound without time, so time being a dimension should strictly
 speaking always result in a +1 on the dimension count from traditional
 accounting...

 Ronald

Following Eero's notation, surely we should add + 0.5 D
.  .  .   unless we can move back in time


Mind you some days I feel my 'progress' in time is not uniform but has
some waveform 'mixed' with it ...


Michael


 On 5 Mar 2014, at 12:53, Eero Aro eero@dlc.fi wrote:

 Nah

 With my Serious Bloke hat on:

 Mono is 0,5 D sound. Distance and depth in front of the listener.

 Stereo is 1,5 D sound. Left-Right / distance and depth in front of the
 listener.

 Pantophonics is 2D. Front-Back, Left-Right.

 Periphonics is 3D. Front-Back, Left-Right, Up-Down. (Binaural also, if
 it would work.)

 Eero

 5.3.2014 13:42, Dave Malham kirjoitti:
 Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D
 sound
 :-)


 On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote:


 On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote:

 And now, 4-D sound


 http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/

 X, Y, Z  and...

 Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;)

 Ronald
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Re: [Sursound] AmbiExplorer

[Michael Chapman]

 Hi Michael,

 I'm sorry that AmbiExplorer didn't work on your daughter's device. If
 anyone experiences problems with the app please feel free to email me
 directly. I'm more than happy to try to figure out what's going wrong. A
 downside of Android development is the overwhelming variety of devices and
 making apps work on all of them.


Yes, my thoughts, so not surprised that there could be a problem.
Also why I tried 'the list':
-thought if it was one of those silly 'works on = v.392 and = v.394, but
not on v.393' 'things' then a wider audiece might nail it.
-also I'm not a smartphone user, so thought it might be all my fault, anyway!

I await my next visit to my daughter ...

Thanks for the tips.

Regards,

Michael



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[Sursound] AmbiExplorer

[Michael Chapman]

Persuaded one of my daughters to download AmbiExplorer  --very impressed
with what worked!
(The rotatig head is great.)

However it does not play.

It's a few weeks ago, but IIRC we got a status bar (?) and a clock.
Besides getting no sound neither of those two budges.
No error messages.

It was a SAMSUNG Galaxy SIII mini GT-18190
runing Android 4.1.2

Any ideas ... ?

Thanks,

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Beyond MP3: New push for high-resolution music so clear you can hear a pin drop

[Michael Chapman]

Andrew Castiglione wrote:


 http://www.hiresaudiocentral.com/


Arn't they the folk that rent out stuff for gigs in the Brum area ???

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] uhj and z

[Michael Chapman]

 Is there a technical reason why z is never included in UHJ recordings?


I suppose the simplistic answer to _not_ included would be channel count.

As for _never_ included, the table at the base of the 'hierarchy' section
of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambisonic_UHJ_format#The_UHJ_hierarchy
is probably a good start.

Good luck with the 'alphabet soup' ...

Michael

 --
 Bearcat M. Şándor
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Re: [Sursound] Fwd: Alan Parson's Stereotomy and UHJ

[Michael Chapman]

Regarding UHJ channels:

I should have said, that
in my (limited) experience 'UHJ' means
either
-all the HJ's (the top four rows in the Wikipedia table)
or
- what is/was known as BHJ (i.e. two channel).

Others may have different experiences ... and almost certainly based on a
bigger sample.

Anyway, a typical case of the generic term coming to mean the commonest
specific example 

So: UHJ has no Z (if UHJ is BHJ)
or: UHJ can have Z (where PHJ is one of the HJs that comprise UHJ).

Another term for all the HJs is _IIRC_ 'C-format'.

As I said an alphabet soup ...

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] DeWolfe Library Music - Ambisonics confusion

[Michael Chapman]

 You know, i don't ever remember seeing it, anyone have it as a jpeg or
 png?


Try
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK1500177
or even
http://www.ambisonia.com/images/icons/button_ambisonic.gif

Couple of points:

I don't think it is up for grabs.
Rather it has become public domain.
And, anyway, York University are arguably using a derivative ;-)

The TM linked to above was a mixed 'text and graphic' one,
It has the interesting line, in its file:
Disclaimer Registration of this mark shall give no right to the
exclusive use of the word Ambisonic.

Michael




   --On 05 December 2013 19:37 -0700 Martin Leese
   martin.le...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

the five rings logo

   Six (five small, one large).

   Paul

   --
   Paul Hodges


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Re: [Sursound] DeWolfe Library Music - Ambisonics confusion

[Michael Chapman]

 Thanks, interesting about it's status: Dead.  Guess that says it all.

Dead in an IP sense, but not dead in a Monty Python sense 

The patent (hypothetical) on a 'hammer and nail' is dead, but the
invention is still useful 


You know, i don't ever remember seeing it, anyone have it as a jpeg or
png?
   

   Try
   http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK1500177
   or even
   http://www.ambisonia.com/images/icons/button_ambisonic.gif

   Couple of points:

   I don't think it is up for grabs.
   Rather it has become public domain.
   And, anyway, York University are arguably using a derivative ;-)

   The TM linked to above was a mixed 'text and graphic' one,
   It has the interesting line, in its file:
   Disclaimer Registration of this mark shall give no right to the
   exclusive use of the word Ambisonic.

   Michael



   
  --On 05 December 2013 19:37 -0700 Martin Leese
  martin.le...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
   
   the five rings logo
   
  Six (five small, one large).
   
  Paul
   
  --
  Paul Hodges
   
   
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Re: [Sursound] DeWolfe Library Music - Ambisonics confusion

[Michael Chapman]

 How much does it cost to secure either or both? - is there an ongoing
 overhead?

 Dr. Peter Lennox


I would say ambisonics is a 'dictionary word'  (though I haven't looked
in any dictionaries).

Whatever, it has been in use a long time and unprotected.

The withdrawal of the US application was possibly on the grounds that it
could not be registered.


Michael


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Re: [Sursound] DeWolfe Library Music - Ambisonics confusion

[Michael Chapman]

 At 12:31 04-12-13, Michael Chapman wrote:

  I would say ambisonics is a 'dictionary word'  (though I haven't
 looked
  in any dictionaries).
  
  Whatever, it has been in use a long time and unprotected.

 It doesnt hurt to ask, since it can be shown that the word has had
 specific useage for a long time.

  
  The withdrawal of the US application was possibly on the grounds that it
  could not be registered.

 OR either that Nimbus forgot or didnt have the funds to renew it.

 Again, it's worth enquiring.

IIRC there was an _attempt_ to trademark the word ambisonics.
That application was withdrawn.

So ambisonics is not now and never has been a trademark (though it may
have enjoyed some protection between application and withdrawal?).

Anyone trying to register it now would (or ought to) get shown the door,
just as anyone trying to register physics or chemistry.

Obviously though just as you can register a series of computers as apple
(if you ignore The Beatles) ... you could arguably try and register a new
variety of apples as ambisonic  ... but that can't stop anyone calling
an apple an apple or ... an audio thingy ambisonic.

Michael


 David

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Re: [Sursound] New Ambisonic VST Plugins

[Michael Chapman]

 Le 2013-11-22 12:12, Richard Furse a �crit :

you should
also be able to upsample to third order using Svein's excellent HARPEX-B
plugin, although the public version of that currently generates only
horizontal components at third order (for compatibility with channel
 count
limits in other hosts).

 Is there a non-public, beta, version that outputs the full 3rd order 16
 channels?

Non, (or so I am informed).

Michael


 - Daniel


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Re: [Sursound] New Ambisonic VST Plugins

[Michael Chapman]

 �David Pickett d...@fugato.com�wrote:



 How does one record in third order (or indeed any order above first
 order)?��
 What kind of microphone array does one need, for instance, for 3rd
 order with no height information (WXYUVPQ)?�
 Is there a native format method for HOA or is it all extended A
 format, with conversion through matrices?


I don't dispute Eric's very short, but very full summary
but I think we may be at cross purposes.

Richard Furse's software obviously works with a higher order microphone
(if anyone has one) but I would suggest his primary motivation was for
synthesised higher order soundfields. You can obviously create a synthetic
soundfield of any order you want.

Michael



 All excellent questions. �It is not quite as obvious how to record any
 order of Ambisonics above first order. �It will require some sort of
 microphone array and post-processing. �One of my favorites is the array
 described by Craven, Lawe and Travis in:
 Microphone arrays using tangential velocity sensors
 P.G. Craven, C. Travis, M.J. Law
 We introduce a new class of 3D microphone arrays that use symmetrical
 arrangements of tangential velocity sensors.� Use of velocity sensors
 allows these arrays to recover spherical harmonics of a given degree with
 less low-frequency boost than when using pressure sensors only.� As an
 example we present a symmetrical array of twelve velocity sensors that
 resolves the eight harmonics of degrees 1 and 2.� A second-order
spherical
 microphone can now be constructed by combining this array with one or more
 pressure sensors that provide the missing harmonic of degree 0.
 http://ambisonics.iem.at/symposium2009/proceedings/ambisym09-craventravis-tangentialsphmic.pdf/at_download/file


 The other practical method for constructing an array that produces higher
 order spherical harmonic outputs is to use a group of omnidirectional
 microphones on a sphere, such as the commercially available Eigenmike:
 http://www.mhacoustics.com/products


 There are other methods. �It's still early days for this technology.

 Eric Benjamin
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Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud

[Michael Chapman]

 okay here is the link to the B-format files
 https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=3AEEEA022E2AD294%21227

This item might not exist or is no longer available
This item might have been deleted, expired, or you might not have
permission to view it. Contact the owner of this item for more
information.

Michael

 all eight
 files in the folder are by hector Centeno, for whom I built a Brahma
 microphone some years ago. four or of music, four of bird song. they were
 processed from the original A-formt to B-format using generic filters.
 Fons Adriansen had later provided Hector with the correct filters, but I
 do not remember he sent me new versions of the files.

 Umashankar

 From: umasha...@hotmail.com
 To: s...@mchapman.com; sursound@music.vt.edu
 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 21:34:52 +0530
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud

 the B-format files files are in my skydrive folder called brahma 140.
 they are named birds etc . I have just sent a link from skydrive to
 sursound. if it does not show up I will try to copy and paste the link

 umashankar

  Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 15:45:58 +
  From: s...@mchapman.com
  To: sursound@music.vt.edu
  Subject: Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud
 
   dear Augustine
  
   I sent the message from soundcloud so I thought it would include a
 link
  automatically.  Here it is
   http://soundcloud.com/umashankar-manthravadi/hector-bird-recording
  
  Thanks.
 
  It probably did, but as a a href=urlclick here/a which did not
 come
  out in the pure text version of/on the list.
 
  Michael
 
  PS Any chance of downloading the B-format ???
 
 
   umashankar
  
   Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:39:11 +
   From: augustineleu...@gmail.com
   To: sursound@music.vt.edu
   Subject: Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud
  
   can't see the link ?
  
  
   On 21 November 2013 03:31, umashankar manthravadi
   umasha...@hotmail.comwrote:
  
this is a link to a one minute recording by hecter Centeno using
 the
  Brahma + Zoom H2n. this  is for the many who had asked how it sounds
   for
nature sound recordings. the new H2n has better preamps, and you
 can
   now
use the microphone with other recorders.
   
   
Umashankar
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   --
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   augustine.leudar.com
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Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud

[Michael Chapman]

 seemed to have messed up - deleted the files trying to allow downloads. I
 am uploading them again, and here is the link http://sdrv.ms/1baeBAI

Sorry, something went wrong
 Please try again. If you keep seeing this message, go to Service status
to check whether there's a problem with SkyDrive or to report the issue.

Michael ;-(

 umashankar

 I did not want to process them at all because this is primarily for people
 to judge the 14 mm capsules in a tetrahedral array.

 umashankar

 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 16:22:23 +
 From: augustineleu...@gmail.com
 To: sursound@music.vt.edu
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud

 strange bird - and nice spacious feel to the recording - Id be tempted
 to
 stick a high pass filter on it though - or maybe use a wind shield lots
 of
 low frequency booming,
 best,
 Gus


 On 21 November 2013 16:08, umashankar manthravadi
 umasha...@hotmail.comwrote:

  okay here is the link to the B-format files
  https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=3AEEEA022E2AD294%21227 all eight
  files in the folder are by hector Centeno, for whom I built a Brahma
  microphone some years ago. four or of music, four of bird song. they
 were
  processed from the original A-formt to B-format using generic filters.
 Fons
  Adriansen had later provided Hector with the correct filters, but I do
 not
  remember he sent me new versions of the files.
 
  Umashankar
 
   From: umasha...@hotmail.com
   To: s...@mchapman.com; sursound@music.vt.edu
   Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 21:34:52 +0530
   Subject: Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud
  
   the B-format files files are in my skydrive folder called brahma
 140.
  they are named birds etc . I have just sent a link from skydrive to
  sursound. if it does not show up I will try to copy and paste the link
  
   umashankar
  
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 15:45:58 +
From: s...@mchapman.com
To: sursound@music.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud
   
 dear Augustine

 I sent the message from soundcloud so I thought it would include
 a
  link
automatically.  Here it is
 http://soundcloud.com/umashankar-manthravadi/hector-bird-recording

Thanks.
   
It probably did, but as a a href=urlclick here/a which did
 not
  come
out in the pure text version of/on the list.
   
Michael
   
PS Any chance of downloading the B-format ???
   
   
 umashankar

 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:39:11 +
 From: augustineleu...@gmail.com
 To: sursound@music.vt.edu
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud

 can't see the link ?


 On 21 November 2013 03:31, umashankar manthravadi
 umasha...@hotmail.comwrote:

  this is a link to a one minute recording by hecter Centeno
 using
  the
Brahma + Zoom H2n. this  is for the many who had asked how it
 sounds
 for
  nature sound recordings. the new H2n has better preamps, and
 you
  can
 now
  use the microphone with other recorders.
 
 
  Umashankar
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Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud

[Michael Chapman]

 dear Augustine

 I sent the message from soundcloud so I thought it would include a link
automatically.  Here it is
 http://soundcloud.com/umashankar-manthravadi/hector-bird-recording

Thanks.

It probably did, but as a a href=urlclick here/a which did not come
out in the pure text version of/on the list.

Michael

PS Any chance of downloading the B-format ???


 umashankar

 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:39:11 +
 From: augustineleu...@gmail.com
 To: sursound@music.vt.edu
 Subject: Re: [Sursound] Hector bird recording - SoundCloud

 can't see the link ?


 On 21 November 2013 03:31, umashankar manthravadi
 umasha...@hotmail.comwrote:

  this is a link to a one minute recording by hecter Centeno using the
Brahma + Zoom H2n. this  is for the many who had asked how it sounds
 for
  nature sound recordings. the new H2n has better preamps, and you can
 now
  use the microphone with other recorders.
 
 
  Umashankar
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic first approach

[Michael Chapman]

 --On 16 November 2013 06:31 + Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com
wrote:

 --fiddling to get the correct one of (?)24 possible permutations of the
four capsules to the snake is a !  Especially in dim lighting ...
and you didn't bring a lamp ... and ...

 A dab of four coloured paints on the plugs and sockets makes this so
much easier!

 That's why I was asking here about colour codes a few years ago (the
answer is make up your own!).

 Paul Hodges


To preserve the best traditions of ambisonics ... only if they clash with
someone else's.

More seriously ... my cones give out before my rods ... so big black and
white numbers (or any glyphs) is still easier.
Remembering the torch is even easier.
And ... of course ... a six, seven, eight pin XLR 'plug and play' would
cut out the 'human' element altogether ...

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic first approach

[Michael Chapman]

 In that case for my ambiences and nature recordings unfortunately it
 will give me so issues to work with.


Don't think there is _an_ answer for nature recording, though be glad to
be proved wrong.
Fons' TetraMic+Parabola interests me greatly ... though obviously the
output is not periphonic ... trying to think of situations where it might
produce a useable pantophonic nature recording (obviously stereo is no
problem).

We did many, many recordings (wetlands plus TetraMic). Frogs in the day:
fine. Dawn chorus: too much 'noise'.
But we were committed to making a presentation.
Arrived at the theatre.
Can you cut that rowdy air-conditioning?
No.
Grimace.
As it was, everyone attuned to the a/c whilst 'settling down', so it was
not an issue ... and glory of glories it was louder than the noise level
on the recording.

One can get lucky ;-)

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic first approach

[Michael Chapman]

 J?rn Nettingsmeier  netti...@stackingdwarves.net wrote:

 the tetra sounds great, but the connectors are very flimsy.

 The connectors are all from Switchcraft's Tini-Q (mini-XLR) series, used
 in
 many professional products and contexts.

 In the six years since TetraMic was introduced, we've had exactly one
 cable
 returned to us due to connector or cable failure.


 Len Moskowitz

It's one of those things : It is a problem because it is perceived to be a
problem.

Must admit, ordering a spare break-out cable ('just in case') is on that
list of jobs 'to do' that never get done ;-)

So the obsession with connectors (referred to yesterday) is I think from
two causes:
--mini-XLRs _look_ fragile
--fiddling to get the correct one of (?)24 possible permutations of the
four capsules to the snake is a !  Especially in dim lighting ... and
you didn't bring a lamp ... and ...

So Core Sound's next product is awaited with interest !!!

To second Len, I must say I have only had one failure. Fortunately in the
pre-concert warm up, we discovered we were monitoring on only three
capsules.
The problem was at the mic end, _but_ was a standard XLR-XLR connection
... and that just shouldn't happen !

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Linux ambdec b-format channel order

[Michael Chapman]

 On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:00:10AM +, Andy Furniss wrote:

 I am not experienced with ambdec, but while trying something today I
 noticed something confusing when feeding direct with mplayer -

 mplayer -channels 4 -ao jack:port=ambdec pwh-VoiCE-Round.amb

 The channels are crossed as in the screenshot. This doesn't happen if I
 were to use the same mplayer command to a different sink.

 I suppose it does match the order on the config screen, but not the jack
 input names.

 http://imageshack.com/a/img203/1880/1xzw.png

 Mplayer's Jack support is broken, it doesn't allow you to specify the
 ports
 to connect to, only the application name.

Agreed.

My (2007) take on this is item 5 on http://mchapman.com/amb/software.

So not constructive ... except to re-assure you that the brickwall you are
banging your head on has been banged by others ...

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Michael Chapman]

 Hi,


 The main problem in the UK is getting away from ambient noise
 (traffic, aircraft, people, barking dogs, wind in trees  grass, rain
 and other water etc.). Then there's still a residual of Brownian air
 motion from everywhere. Apart from frogs if you're patient (or
 possibly bees or crickets/grasshoppers) most creatures are trying to
 avoid you and remain 'stumm' until they're some distance away.


The converse can be worrying.

I did a series of 'dawn choruses' in a wetland nature reserve,
We put ourselves 50m from the mic and recorded.
We and the mic were on 'walkways' above the wetlands (probably designed by
Daleks).
Two mornings we got distinct footfalls along the walkways ... they weren't
human ... but they weren't small.
Still, all crew accounted for.

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Michael Chapman]

A CAT-5 socket (in an XLR housing) on umashankar's Zoom is an interesting
possibility ...

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Michael Chapman]

 --On 03 November 2013 09:06 + Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com
 wrote:

 The PP units invert the signal.

 My understanding is that the early ones did, but the later ones are
 different and do not.

 Paul Hodges

Does that mean you can get away with only one 

(With CAT-5 there is only one 48V wire to the mic stand ... and with a
(IIRC) six pin plug to the TetraMic there can only be one 5V wire into the
mic.? ... naìve... ? )

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Core Sound TetraMic

[Michael Chapman]

 Eric C's two cents worth:



 I suppose the flimsy connectors are needed to keep size small? Something
 like the Game Boy connector (later to be used as FireWire connect) might
 be more rugged, but not circular (thus making it more difficult to machine
 the mic's body). One does have to be careful with connectors and wires
 when using a TetraMic.


The ideal connector (for whatever tetrahedral) would (IMHO) be CAT-5.
You can get 4 channels of audio and phantom down CAT-5.

The phantom needs to be a reasonable voltage (e.g. 48V, and not 5V) for
reasonable cable runs.

CAT-5 plugs and sockets have a reputation of being wobbly, but NEUTRIK
make bulletproof ones (housed in standard metal, click-lock, XLR sleeves).

Have no connection with any manufacturer ... except as a customer.

Michael

PS The wonders of recording with fifty metres of CAT-5 lead have to be
experienced !!!




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Re: [Sursound] Very inexpensive surround speakers

[Michael Chapman]

 Has anyone tried  a system that was using the Z506 model for Logitech?

In 2007 I played with some Logitech X-140 speakers.
Was enough to convince me ambisonics works.
The spatialisation was actually very convincing.

http://mchapman.com/amb/hardware

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.

[Michael Chapman]

 Thanks a lot for those papers. Beautiful. Same month  year of my birth.
 Yes, I�ll do ambisonics and I�ll stay analogue as much as I can.

 There is a motive, but it is an artistic one. So, seems non sense to try
 to explain it here.

Hey, we're all in the gutter ... but some of us look at the stars (if not
all the time).

Whatever, good luck with the project ... and, maybe, risk sharing it ...

Michael


 You will just throw stones in my head just for that idea.

 Thanks a lot to everyone who�s been really helpful.
 KK.

 I agree with J�rn, doing this in analogue, today, for anything else than
 enacting a zen koan to enlighten apprentices, seems decidedly weird...
 but
 that's part of the point about art, right?  If you really, really want
 to
 do analogue Ambisonic stuff, I suggest you look at the two (hand
 written!)
 reports on Ambisonic technology Michael Gerzon wrote for the NRDC.
 I've put them in my Dropbox folder...

 https://www.dropbox.com/s/f5szcb2kty2x871/NRDC_technology_report_4_rotate.pdfand
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/93dybs6uubfa567/NRDC_technology_report_3_rotate_b.pdf

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Re: [Sursound] Oktavia 4-D ambient microphone

[Michael Chapman]

 Are you sure this is a less expensive option than a Tetramic?
 It seems capsules run at 77 Euros each and are not included.


Price: capsules not included ...

Availability: need to pre-order (and pre-pay)
Tetramic may or may not need pre-ordering, etc.
Brahama ?cloud funding? (or ... shapeways ... )

Calibration and compensation (to me the prime point):
Didn't see any details.
Included with TetraMic and passes to free software.
In development for Brahama   . . .

Size: It looks big on a quick glance at the photo : all that is saying is
... that I would want to check some figures.

There are enough unknowns there to my mind to make it worth checking.
But I would be surprised if it was significantly cheaper or better than
the TetraMic .. but one is sometimes surprised ...

Michael



 On 5 October 2013 12:51, Dan Andrews d...@db-av.co.uk wrote:

 I should have been more concise so apologies.
 I'm almost certain the mic will output a-format so it would need some
 software like the SPS200.
 I've wanted a soundfield mic for a long time but the cost is just too
 high
 for me, this mic looked like it could be a cheaper alternative.


 On 5 October 2013 19:24, Kan Kaban kanka...@alivecinema.org wrote:

  I can�t find if its output is B-Format. Interesting as you may
 exchange
  capsules.
 
  On Oct 5, 2013, at 12:56 PM, Dan Andrews d...@db-av.co.uk wrote:
 
   I stumbled across this the other day, It looks like it could be an
   affordable way to get into b-format recording at last.
  
 
 http://www.oktava-shop.com/product_info.php/info/p12_4-d-ambient-microphone.html
  
   Has anyone here used this mic and what are your thoughts on it?
  
   regards
  
   --
   *Dan Andrews*
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 --
 *Dan Andrews*

 Registered Office:
 dB-AV Ltd
 Churchfields,
 The Street,
 Tendring,
 Essex,
 CO16 0BL

 *+44 (0)**7581 187488*

 www.db-av.co.uk
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Re: [Sursound] Oktavia 4-D ambient microphone (Dan Andrews)

[Michael Chapman]

 Kan Kaban kanka...@alivecinema.org wrote:

 Hi. Is not less expensive than the Tetramic, but you can exchange
 capsules, so an hyper cardioid option is rounding my mind? it will cost
 near $1.500 with capsules.

 Can you tell us what the advantage is of having the ability to exchange
 capsules on a tetrahedral mic?


Ouch   .  .  .!


 Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
 Core Sound LLC
 www.core-sound.com
 Home of TetraMic

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Re: [Sursound] Questions about support of .amb file (Wave based)

[Michael Chapman]

 rephrase after coffee (not sure if that will help)
 So if this was to work in with a media player the media player would have
 to know how many speakers you have and where they are (is 8 in a cube or
 eight in the azimuth)  - then the media player would have to decode to
 .amb
 file depending on your speaker array ?



Euther great confusion or a typo, surely :  would have to decode _from_ 
.amb ... ?

Michael

Coffee has given me unrealistic expectations of productivity.



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Re: [Sursound] Questions about support of .amb file (Wave based)

[Michael Chapman]

Fons wrote:
 On Wed, Oct 02, 2013 at 11:52:17AM +0100, Richard Dobson wrote:

 If you find a .wav file somewhere on the net, what do expect
 it to contain?

 Audio signals of some sort...

Just as a real 'use case' of how .wav files can be used (or ?abused).

I created a file with one cycle of a sine wave, wavelength 45 minutes ...
I could share it on the net ... I used it for things like:
out.wav = in.wav [multiplied by] sine.wav

.wav files are ideal for this ... though probably not what they were
intended for. (Audio software can even be used to create them.)

No idea what folks who do physical measurements over time use as file
formats (light intensity over 24 hours for example), but if I didn't know
of anything better .wav would fit the bill.
But this is straying a little off topic ...

Michael



 All the rest must be carried by file headers or information
 'chunks' such as the one used in the amb wav format.

 Ciao,

 --
 FA

 A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
 It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
 and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] Feedback for new Ambisonics microphone and recording system

[Michael Chapman]

 Hi All,

 I saw this post on a forum.  The new mic will
 be either stand-alone or twinned with a
 4-channel Zoom recorder.  The company is
 proposing to fund it via Kickstarter.  They are
 asking for feedback from professionals in the
 field of sound recording.


They have the mic on their website already
http://www.embracecinemagear.com/brahma-sound-field-microphone-tetra-mic-head-ambisonics-design-1.html
Umashankar Manthravadi's Brahma ... as he confirms.

?Surprising they posted on SoundOnSound and not (yet) here ... are we
known as 'diificult' ?  ;-)

The proposed price does not seem outlandish, but IMHO acceptance will rest
on calibration and it's use in conversion to B-format.

There is a curiously priced 18V phantom power box, that seemingly just
hard wires two 9V batteries, on the same site at 215 reduced to 145 USD
http://www.embracecinemagear.com/tpb18-phantom-power-source-for-devices-dslr-zoom-h4n-tascam-dr-101.html
making the microphone pricing seem even better value   .  .  .

Michael

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Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration

[Michael Chapman]

  And, it has to be ~standard~ so that any player can talk
 with any speaker.

 Richard Dobson


An interesting idea ( ... patents ... )

Ma daughter had to spend the last afternoon before a foreign trip driving
into 'th big city' to get a new charger cable for her iPhone-Y, because
she couldn't borrow the cable off her sister's iPhone-X because they are
totally different.

I usually joke to the children: Imagine if each manufacturer of car fitted
a unique caravan/trailer connection.
I seem to be out-of-date ... some manufacturers change* the coupling with
each year's model.

Michael


*and customers put up with it.  .  .





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Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.

[Michael Chapman]

 Mathematically,
 _if_ you have a perfect A-format signal set (from some theoretical
 tetrahedral mic) then it can be panned.
 For the _simple_ case of a yaw of X degrees, then
 A' = (  A(1+cosX) + B(-sinX) + C(sinX) + D(1-cosX) )  /2
 B' = ...
 etc.
 _I_think_ (this was very quick on the back of an envelope!).


Taking the message about jumping in the deep end ... for comparison, to
yaw (A degrees) in B-format (IIRC) is the relatively simple:
W' = W
X' = X.cosA - Y.sinA
Y' = X.sinA + Y.cosA
Z' = Z

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Very inexpensive surround speakers

[Michael Chapman]

 Hi,

 please let me ask a basic question.

 I'k like to monitor some work of mine realized mainly using ATK and Sc3
 i.e. first order ambisonics.

 Could you plase suggest me some very small and inexpensive speakers ?


Sorry not a direct answer.

But it has been said on here (apologies forget who) that as the number of
speakers increase, then the quality becomes less 'relevant' --- that is a
multi-speaker array seems more forgiving.

Think the least I've paid is 20CHF (about 15 euro at the time) per pair.
They were so bad that DRC made them sound worse ..., but still got a
recognisable (and in its way impressive) 3-D image.

What one is listening to must be a big, big factor. Fireworks,
helicopters, jet planes cause less listener outrage than a well known
classical concert piece  .  .  .   suspect cutting edge 'contemprary'
music will avoid criticism (unless the audience really know the piece).

Whatever, _please_ do report back on what you finally do. It may be
anecdotal, but the more 'weight' to non-'evidence based' knowledge the
better.

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Esfera Mic: IBC launch

[Michael Chapman]

 Anyone at this year's IBC might be interested in the launch of
 Sennheiser's new microphone: the Esfera.

 http://www.noodls.com/view/84DDC0FB08F1DCD3D116474D5EC49E93382C4A5F

 Not sure on any other details as of yet so if anyone is going - could you
 report back?
 Thanks!


Esfera provides 5.1 surround sound from just two channels, making
complicated surround mic installations a thing of the past.
Always suspected there were other channels secretly multi-plexed into
stereo ...

Seems to be not so much a mic as 'a 19 rack-mount processing unit'.

Mind you if you want a black box that turns mono into third order
ambisonics ... I met a man in a pub last night ... and ...

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Esfera Mic: IBC launch

[Michael Chapman]

 Anyone at this year's IBC might be interested in the launch of
 Sennheiser's new microphone: the Esfera.

 http://www.noodls.com/view/84DDC0FB08F1DCD3D116474D5EC49E93382C4A5F

 Not sure on any other details as of yet so if anyone is going - could
 you
 report back?
 Thanks!


 Esfera provides 5.1 surround sound from just two channels, making
 complicated surround mic installations a thing of the past.
 Always suspected there were other channels secretly multi-plexed into
 stereo ...

 Seems to be not so much a mic as 'a 19 rack-mount processing unit'.


If that is right, you could simply send Sennheiser a stereo audio file and
ask them to send you the 5.1 back.
Good marketing for them.
Saves you going to IBC.
Win-win.

Though, if a black box can manufaczure 'acceptable 5.1' out of stereo
streams (and I'm not saying it can't) it doesn't seem to say much for:
-5.1
and/or
-'acceptable'
or am I too tired ?

Michael


There is a matrix somewhere (IIRC) for 5.1  FOA.
So sell your TetraMicas fast ... while there's still a market ... 

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Re: [Sursound] Suggestions spherical loudspeaker installation observatory

[Michael Chapman]

 Hi Eero,
 Al revers amigo. I dont know how it works with ambisonics and soundfield
 reconstruction but basically generally speaking your ears cant tell the
 difference if a speaker directly overhead is half a metre this way or the
 other - in effect your ears have lower resolution straight above so extra
 speakers are just wasted as you cant hear the difference anyway-
 conversley
 where your ears have good localisation you need more speakers as your ears
 are less easily fooled . This resulted in several speakers in the sonic
 lab
 at the sonic arts research centre being removed overhead as listening
 tests
 showed they were making little difference to the listener experience.
 Unless I was taught wrong - In which case Im all ears (pun not intended)

 On 11 July 2013 10:34, Eero Aro eero@dlc.fi wrote:

 I must confess that I don't know much about what you are discussing
 about, but I think I read in one of the posts (that I already have
 deleted)
 that there is no need to place a lot of speakers directly above, as our
 localization is at it's worst in that direction.

 However, I have always thought that you need _more_ speakers (with
 smaller angles) in those directions where the hearing localization of
 phantom
 images is not very good.
[ ... ]


Discounting the argument that nobody's localisation is good when they
realise that a 60Kg speaker is suspended over their head on a weak bracket
  .   .   .   I posit the following :

DWMM has a soundstage of, what ?
+/-  ( 45  A  135 )(degrees)
E : -5 to -15
E: +10 to +25

Better estimates and/or actual figures welcome  ;-)

But my point is that you need better rendering of elevation because the
(primary sources of) sound are so close together in elevation (E).
The sound stage (angle/azimuth (A)) is relatively broad.

So, logically, first order horizontal and third order vertical (I jest ...
!).

Michael



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Re: [Sursound] Suggestions spherical loudspeaker installation observatory

[Michael Chapman]

Robert Greene wrote :

...
  If you need more points, then
 there is no canonical choice(and no one is going to discover
 any more Platonic solids--there aren't any more!).
...

Sorry to start that one ... it was basically a joke (I say basically as
like perpetual motion machines I had the impression that this was a field
that had (too many) claims;-)
(Where too many = 1.)

Martin Gardner had a proof (of no more) that was very elegant, very
short and in normal prose ... its only negative feature is that it was
(for me, at least) highly unmemorable ...

Happy etiolating,

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Fwd: Non Mixer Spatializer Demo

[Michael Chapman]

 It is very dependent on type of music. For music genres that are
 mostly presented on stage or similar, there is probably no need for
 down (or possibly even up!) as a panning location.

You probably speak for the majority (about 'up') by I like listening to a
'tiered' orchestra in FOA/periphony ... and accept that is probably a
personal idiosyncrasy.

Michael


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Re: [Sursound] Suggestions spherical loudspeaker installation observatory

[Michael Chapman]

 Matthias Kronlachner wrote:
 Dear All,

 I am currently working on a 24-loudspeaker installation in an old
 observatory of Vilnius University.
 Maybe someone has suggestions on how to distribute those 24
 loudspeakers.
 ...


 In general, for Ambisonics, you should
 distribute the speakers as evenly as possible.
 Aim for the faces of a platonic solid; visit:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_solid


Problem is ... despite many claims to be on the verge of discovering new
ones;-) ...that Plato did not have many solids   . . .

I _thought_ the consenus on this list (no howls of derision, please) was
edging towards three rings ... though without looking back, whether that
was 6-8-6 or something else ...?

Just a two pennies'  worth,

Michael


 Ambisonics works for listeners outside the
 sphere of speakers as well as inside.
 However, it does not work for listeners *on*
 the surface of the sphere (unless you are
 using third-order or higher).

 So, distribute the speakers evenly and, if
 possible, use higher-order.

 Regards,
 Martin
 --
 Martin J Leese
 E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
 Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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