Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Karl Kuras wrote: > > > So I suppose you don't want me to point out that your website is > incorrectly > > spelled as "sight" -- unless that was intentional... :-) > > Ok... there is a story behind the misspelling of site The page was > supposed to be C64 Site, but I goofed up on my second logo (the one which > was a mockup of the old Probe game Trantor The Last Stormtrooper (for any > old guys who are keeping count). I got within a week about 30 mails about > the misspelling and half of them thought it was so cool that I had > misspelled it ON PURPOSE that I just left it... so you could say that today > the misspelling is on purpose... Like I wrote, "sight" can be taken as an intentional metaphor... hard to explain to a German :-), and it's a stretch, but if you're saying it's intentional then I'd just run with that. ;) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
> So I suppose you don't want me to point out that your website is incorrectly > spelled as "sight" -- unless that was intentional... :-) Ok... there is a story behind the misspelling of site The page was supposed to be C64 Site, but I goofed up on my second logo (the one which was a mockup of the old Probe game Trantor The Last Stormtrooper (for any old guys who are keeping count). I got within a week about 30 mails about the misspelling and half of them thought it was so cool that I had misspelled it ON PURPOSE that I just left it... so you could say that today the misspelling is on purpose... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Okay, I think we're on the same page, but I'll sum up my points: 1) I don't care what a poll of comp USA shoppers shows they know or don't know. I'm not talking to them here. 2) PC is the technically correct term for Personal Computer. 3) PC is also a pop-culture abbreviation referring to old IBM compatible PCs. 4) Nobody has yet come up with another method of classifying Personal Computers. "Home Computers" and simply "Computers" are not wholly accurate. Therefore I will continue to refer to them as PCs. 5) Mixing the two could be confusing: "My PC at home is awesome!" (I might be talking about my Mac or some other PC I have at home.) So do what you want, but please be aware that not everybody thinks of IBM-PCs first when they hear PC. Actually, I don't think the term PC has the same pop-culture meaning anymore. Now that there aren't 10 choices of personal computer platforms, PC now means...Personal Computer. If you didn't grow up in the 80's...and you didn't know that Atari or Commodore made computers, you would think PC means...Personal Computer...that box you have at home that accesses the Internet. For example, I asked on of my younger co-workers if he had a PC at home and he said, "yes." I said, "what kind." He said, "A Mac." It doesn't matter if it is a Pentium II or a Pentium IV or an AMD or a Mac. If you were to ask somebody if they have a PC at home they would probably say, yes. Some might say, "No, I have a Mac." But I think those will be older folks or Mac evangelists. Just my opinion. And if Mac ever goes away, then PC becomes even a more appropriate choice for meaning simply personal computer. Nobody is going to say, "No, I don't have a PC...I have a Dell." Now the differences are between OSs: I run windows or NT or Linux. Hugh -Original Message----- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 4:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: > > "PC games are generally pretty rare because people didn't really use the PC > to play games until about 1985..." > > I know what you mean (from context), but you can see how this statement > could be taken wrong. Am I saying you can't use "PC" to refer to IBM > PCs...no. You can do whatever you want. What I'm saying is that don't > assume PC means IBM PC. I think whenever someone says PC, it's pretty obvious what they're talking about from context. In fact, I can't possibly see how any such statement could be taken wrong because the only people who would see that sentence are people who would understand the context. When I talk to complete newbies, I do use the term "personal computer" and "IBM PC" where appropriate, because I am aware of their level of familiarity with my hobby and PC history in general. (And you should have been able to tell that my use of PC in that last sentence was intended to mean 'personal computing' -- if not, then I don't know how to help you ;-) > I run a site about PC games. > Jim runs a site about IBM-compatible PC games. The problem with stating this is that 99% of the world who is not familiar with our hobby would equate the above two sentences. This is *not* the case with previous pet peeves, like calling a C64 disk a "rom" or calling an NES cart a "tape" -- that happens infrequently. But if I polled 100 people on the street and asked them what a PC game was, over 90 would refer to something on the shelves at CompUSA. In other words: I know what *you* mean, and you know what *I* mean, but I hope you're not assuming that people outside of our hobby will know what you mean. I'm getting the feeling that you think an abbreviation can only mean one thing. What's wrong with "PC" meaning two different things? Maybe I need to come up with some examples of abbreviations that mean different things in different circles... .ah, but wait, I've just answered my own question: It is perfectly acceptable for an abbreviation to mean different things in different circles -- but is it appropriate for an abbreviation to mean two different things in the SAME circle? Probably not. In which case we'd have to define what "PC" definitively meant for our circle, and it would *have* to mean only one thing. This is all semantics, of course, since neither of us will change our habits. Well, rest assured that when *you* say PC, I'll know you're most likely talking about personal computers. :-) footnote: I probably wouldn't have written as much as I have if it weren't for this damn Claritin I'm talking for allergies. I haven't slept more than 4 hours in 2 days. -
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > "PC games are generally pretty rare because people didn't really use the PC > to play games until about 1985..." > > I know what you mean (from context), but you can see how this statement > could be taken wrong. Am I saying you can't use "PC" to refer to IBM > PCs...no. You can do whatever you want. What I'm saying is that don't > assume PC means IBM PC. I think whenever someone says PC, it's pretty obvious what they're talking about from context. In fact, I can't possibly see how any such statement could be taken wrong because the only people who would see that sentence are people who would understand the context. When I talk to complete newbies, I do use the term "personal computer" and "IBM PC" where appropriate, because I am aware of their level of familiarity with my hobby and PC history in general. (And you should have been able to tell that my use of PC in that last sentence was intended to mean 'personal computing' -- if not, then I don't know how to help you ;-) > I run a site about PC games. > Jim runs a site about IBM-compatible PC games. The problem with stating this is that 99% of the world who is not familiar with our hobby would equate the above two sentences. This is *not* the case with previous pet peeves, like calling a C64 disk a "rom" or calling an NES cart a "tape" -- that happens infrequently. But if I polled 100 people on the street and asked them what a PC game was, over 90 would refer to something on the shelves at CompUSA. In other words: I know what *you* mean, and you know what *I* mean, but I hope you're not assuming that people outside of our hobby will know what you mean. I'm getting the feeling that you think an abbreviation can only mean one thing. What's wrong with "PC" meaning two different things? Maybe I need to come up with some examples of abbreviations that mean different things in different circles... ..ah, but wait, I've just answered my own question: It is perfectly acceptable for an abbreviation to mean different things in different circles -- but is it appropriate for an abbreviation to mean two different things in the SAME circle? Probably not. In which case we'd have to define what "PC" definitively meant for our circle, and it would *have* to mean only one thing. This is all semantics, of course, since neither of us will change our habits. Well, rest assured that when *you* say PC, I'll know you're most likely talking about personal computers. :-) footnote: I probably wouldn't have written as much as I have if it weren't for this damn Claritin I'm talking for allergies. I haven't slept more than 4 hours in 2 days. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
I'm not talking about home computers. I'm talking about Personal Computers -- computers with self contained components and not part of a mainframe system. I'm not specifically talking about computers used in the home. They can be designed for use in school or in the office, etc. Again, PC is an abbreviation for Personal Computer, which is a category of computers -- it is not a particular brand or platform of computer. Just because IBM had good marketing people and convinced the layman otherwise, it doesn't mean we have to follow along. Jim, to sum up the crux of your argument from other e-mails PC shouldn't be used to describe the platform or the specific Model (IBM PC is shorter than Apple II). My problem is with quotes you have made yourself at the beginning of this thread: "PC games are generally pretty rare because people didn't really use the PC to play games until about 1985..." I know what you mean (from context), but you can see how this statement could be taken wrong. Am I saying you can't use "PC" to refer to IBM PCs...no. You can do whatever you want. What I'm saying is that don't assume PC means IBM PC. When I say PC, I mean personal computers. I run a site about PC games. Jim runs a site about IBM-compatible PC games. Hugh -Original Message- From: Lee K. Seitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk boldly stated: > >Well, here is where the usage is important. Let's say I'm having a >conversation about "video games." There are many types of video games: >Arcade games, console games, PC games -- just to name the largest >categories. So how would I talk specifically about games played on Personal >Computers? For example, "The first PC game was written in 1977." Here I'm >not talking about arcade games, console games, mainframe computer games, or >games specifically written for the IBM PC. How would you rather denote all >personal computer games in one lump term? I'd probably say, "the first game for home computers was written in 1977." -- Lee K. Seitz * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/ Wanted: | Visit the Classic Video Games Nexus Vintage Pac-M*n necktie| for all your classic link & news needs! |http://start.at/cvgnexus -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > Well, here is where the usage is important. Let's say I'm having a > conversation about "video games." There are many types of video games: > Arcade games, console games, PC games -- just to name the largest > categories. So how would I talk specifically about games played on Personal > Computers? For example, "The first PC game was written in 1977." Here I'm > not talking about arcade games, console games, mainframe computer games, or > games specifically written for the IBM PC. How would you rather denote all > personal computer games in one lump term? "Computer games." I think the "personal" is implied; that is, it is an extremely special case to talk about a computer game *not* written for a personal computer. In your example above, I usually say/write "Arcade games, console games, computer games, handheld games..." etc. "Computer games" is my term. Mainframe computer games are so specialized a case that I specifically denote them, such as, "Rogue started life as a mainframe computer game." -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > Well, you can call it whatever you like. The IBM-compatible PC is a "PC," > but so is Apple and the others. So it isn't correct to only call that brand > a PC. If you chose to be incorrect, that's your choice. > > For example, you could incorrectly say something like this, "I was talking > about PCs, not Apples." There is nothing wrong with this when I am talking amongst peers who know that "PC" is informal abbreviation for the model 5150 and clones. > But anybody who knows what a PC is, might think > that you don't. But anyone who would hear such a phrase is a peer and would know what I mean. When would I ever utter that phrase in the company of someone who might think I'm an idiot when it comes to computer software? -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > I'm > simply saying that it is incorrect to say that the term "PC" only applies to > IBM/Intel-compatibles. Which term? Personal Computer, or IBM PC Model 5150? "PC" is an abbreviation for both. That, ultimately, is the crux of my argument. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > Hugh Falk wrote: > >Well, you can call it whatever you like. The IBM-compatible PC is a "PC," > >but so is Apple and the others. So it isn't correct to only call that > brand > >a PC. If you chose to be incorrect, that's your choice. > >For example, you could incorrectly say something like this, "I was talking > >about PCs, not Apples." > > Excuse me, but then you can't talk about Apples either. Apple is a fruit :) > So you'll have to say an Apple Macintosh for it to be correct too Exactly. So what if I told you (Hugh) that the same rules should apply to you? For example, you have countless times have used "Apple" as a platform designation. When talking about an Apple game, it's pretty obvious that you're referring to a game than was designed for and/or runs on an Apple II/II+/IIe/IIc. If you need to make the distinction between one of those and one that uses the Apple IIGS's extended capabilities, then you call it an Apple IIGS game. Same goes for Mac. So until I hear you calling them "Apple II 8-bit series and all derivatives/clones" games, I don't think it's right to harp on "PC" when I clearly use it as a specific platform designation informally amongst software collector peers who know what I'm talking about. There, stick that in your pipe and smoke it. :-) -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > Well, you can call it whatever you like. The IBM-compatible PC is a "PC," > but so is Apple and the others. So it isn't correct to only call that brand > a PC. If you chose to be incorrect, that's your choice. I am not calling "that brand a PC" -- maybe you're misunderstanding my usage of "PC". I use "PC" as a platform designation. As written earlier, I write "PC games" when I am referring to "games written for the IBM PC model 5150 and all clones and derivatives". > For example, you could incorrectly say something like this, "I was talking > about PCs, not Apples." But anybody who knows what a PC is, might think > that you don't. Again your choice. Just like (God forbid) if I had cancer > of the rectum, I wouldn't want the doctor to tell me I had colon cancer just > because it was a shorter or more common term (since that would be > incorrect). I prefer to discuss both my rectum and my PCs correctly :-))). So you're saying no two abbreviations in the world are the same? I'm not calling them "personal computer games", I'm calling them "IBM PC/clone games". Maybe this is where the disagreement comes from; maybe you think that by referring to the model 5150 generically as a PC that I'm somehow slandering all of the other platforms? I'm not. But if you're saying I shouldn't use the term "PC" to informally refer to the model 5150 because "it's already used for something else", I think that's foolish. -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >Ah, but let's keep in mind that we are not limited to common vernacular. > We > >are the "experts" in this field. > > We are?! :> You know of some *other* mailing list dedicated to the mechanics of collecting software? ;-D -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk boldly stated: > >Well, here is where the usage is important. Let's say I'm having a >conversation about "video games." There are many types of video games: >Arcade games, console games, PC games -- just to name the largest >categories. So how would I talk specifically about games played on Personal >Computers? For example, "The first PC game was written in 1977." Here I'm >not talking about arcade games, console games, mainframe computer games, or >games specifically written for the IBM PC. How would you rather denote all >personal computer games in one lump term? I'd probably say, "the first game for home computers was written in 1977." -- Lee K. Seitz * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/ Wanted: | Visit the Classic Video Games Nexus Vintage Pac-M*n necktie| for all your classic link & news needs! |http://start.at/cvgnexus -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Karl Kuras wrote: > > > On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would > > refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as "tapes?" Ugh, for similar > reasons, > > I don't refer to Intel-based IBM clones only as PCs. Just because it was > > common doesn't make it right. > > Well, talking about pet peeves, if I get one more email with someone > referring to C64 or Amiga disk images as "roms" I'll go postal. Now *that* I can identify with. I hate that too, as much as I hate people calling carts "tapes". So I suppose you don't want me to point out that your website is incorrectly spelled as "sight" -- unless that was intentional... :-) -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Well, here is where the usage is important. Let's say I'm having a conversation about "video games." There are many types of video games: Arcade games, console games, PC games -- just to name the largest categories. So how would I talk specifically about games played on Personal Computers? For example, "The first PC game was written in 1977." Here I'm not talking about arcade games, console games, mainframe computer games, or games specifically written for the IBM PC. How would you rather denote all personal computer games in one lump term? Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 8:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: > > Ah, but let's keep in mind that we are not limited to common vernacular. We > are the "experts" in this field. Just as doctors, mechanics, etc. have > their own words and terms to discuss their expertise, so should we. These > words need not be known or understood by the layman or the Oxford > Dictionary. And just like we made up our own grading scale, we shouldn't be > afraid to make up terms when it helps clarify things for those that really > care. I agree with this completely, but you have to be practical. Even long, complex, technical terms are abbreviated by people in their field -- since they all share the same expertise, they all know what they're talking about when using a trade slang term. For example, a casino pit boss calls favors given to guests "comps", short for "compensation". All casino familiars, from employees to tourist regulars, know what a "comp" is, because gambling is their field of expertise. We have our own volcabulary in our grading scale, and when I say "shrinked" you know I'm talking about a game that is still shrink-wrapped. Along those lines, is it so wrong that I abbreviate "Intel-compatible CPU 'IBM PC model 5150'-based clone" as "PC", since all of us -- in the same field of expertiece -- know exactly what I'm talking about? > On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would > refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as "tapes?" Ugh, for similar reasons, > I don't refer to Intel-based IBM clones only as PCs. Just because it was > common doesn't make it right. So what should we call them? Intel-based isn't right because clones existed with AMD and NEC chips. IBM-based clones is better, but isn't technically correct once we get to the realm of 386 machines and higher (the first 386 box was actually Compaq, not IBM). Yes, every single home computer was technically a personal computer, and we did indeed refer to them all that way back in the 1980s. But I think it's safe to say that if I talk about an old PC game, I mean an IBM PC/clone game. Come on, what else would I be talking about? If I want to talk about ANY OTHER game, I use its platform, such as: A C64 game, Atari ST game, Amiga game, etc. "PC" is a platform designation to me, as it was part of the original model 5150's name. If anyone disagrees with me (here's another gauntlet being thrown), I challenge anyone to prove otherwise and prove its practicality in the face of what I wrote above. PS: I will reply to the other responses here, but I will do so as tersely as possible because I believe my main point was adequately described above. So don't feel like I'm ignoring anyone if I don't respond in detail to all of the replies I see before me :-) -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > Ah, but let's keep in mind that we are not limited to common vernacular. We > are the "experts" in this field. Just as doctors, mechanics, etc. have > their own words and terms to discuss their expertise, so should we. These > words need not be known or understood by the layman or the Oxford > Dictionary. And just like we made up our own grading scale, we shouldn't be > afraid to make up terms when it helps clarify things for those that really > care. I agree with this completely, but you have to be practical. Even long, complex, technical terms are abbreviated by people in their field -- since they all share the same expertise, they all know what they're talking about when using a trade slang term. For example, a casino pit boss calls favors given to guests "comps", short for "compensation". All casino familiars, from employees to tourist regulars, know what a "comp" is, because gambling is their field of expertise. We have our own volcabulary in our grading scale, and when I say "shrinked" you know I'm talking about a game that is still shrink-wrapped. Along those lines, is it so wrong that I abbreviate "Intel-compatible CPU 'IBM PC model 5150'-based clone" as "PC", since all of us -- in the same field of expertiece -- know exactly what I'm talking about? > On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would > refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as "tapes?" Ugh, for similar reasons, > I don't refer to Intel-based IBM clones only as PCs. Just because it was > common doesn't make it right. So what should we call them? Intel-based isn't right because clones existed with AMD and NEC chips. IBM-based clones is better, but isn't technically correct once we get to the realm of 386 machines and higher (the first 386 box was actually Compaq, not IBM). Yes, every single home computer was technically a personal computer, and we did indeed refer to them all that way back in the 1980s. But I think it's safe to say that if I talk about an old PC game, I mean an IBM PC/clone game. Come on, what else would I be talking about? If I want to talk about ANY OTHER game, I use its platform, such as: A C64 game, Atari ST game, Amiga game, etc. "PC" is a platform designation to me, as it was part of the original model 5150's name. If anyone disagrees with me (here's another gauntlet being thrown), I challenge anyone to prove otherwise and prove its practicality in the face of what I wrote above. PS: I will reply to the other responses here, but I will do so as tersely as possible because I believe my main point was adequately described above. So don't feel like I'm ignoring anyone if I don't respond in detail to all of the replies I see before me :-) -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Karl Kuras wrote: > > > If you REALLY want to talk semantics, I don't ever remember > > "Intel-compatibles" being part of common vernacular... > > OK... the gauntlet has been tossed Let the SEMANTIC WARS BEGIN!!! > > (sarcasm added at no extra cost) (laughing my ass off) I think I deserved that. Well, here we go... -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Karl Kuras wrote: > > > I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and > >I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list, > >etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by > >the IDSA. My site was up in 1997. > > Well I can't say anything personally... but by 1997, the abandonware > movement (not called that at the time) was old. I remember it being quite > prolific (no names please) :) Already by early 1995. But it was underground until 1997. I remember IRC bots, etc. -- no different than any warez scene. I think the move to the public eye with Abandonware was necessary to generate more sources of software. I don't remember any of the hard-core oldwarezing guys in 1995 coming up with stuff like Cartels and Cuthroats for the PC; you had to rope in the average joe who still had a copy to find stuff like that. My mission is noble, although I know it doesn't always seem that way :-) -- http://www.MobyGames.com/ The world's most comprehensive gaming database project. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>
> Jim Leonard wrote:
> >Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> >
> > >Yes, but that's not the point; as I explained earlier, the PC versions
> > >are signficantly different, rare, or both. Hence the need to get them.
> >
> > Usually the AppleII versions of most games are more rare
>
> >In what world do you live in? :-)
>
> In a world with more valuable apple games than PC games :)
>
> > The Apple II had a HUGE pirate
> >movement all throughout its life.
>
> Of course; Apple games are very easy to crack.
Not necessarily; there was a huge movement because there was time to form such
a movement. Apple was around since 1977, with games worthy of being pirated
since 1979. Besides, *you* try using the built-in monitor to debug encrypted
self-modfying code loading off of a quarter-tracked disk and tell me "Apple
games are very easy to crack". :-) Some of them were a BITCH to crack. I
never got good at it; I found PC games easier to crack because less people
wrote them in assembly (most of them were written in C).
> A thousand? Well, if not on the net, they must be available somewhere :)
Not if I can't find disks to copy and release, they won't be.
> > I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and
> >I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list,
> >etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by
> >the IDSA. My site was up in 1997.
>
> Did you crack the games? Or just had them on the web?
Both.
> >True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this.
>
> What do you mean? That it took several 3d "mistakes" for people to see that
> 2d was OK too?
Not quite in those words, but let's just say that a lot of fledgling developers
were glad to see Sierra and Origin take on the task -- and run into problems --
before they did.
> >That's very astute (perceptive) -- and also, unfortunately, a fact of
> >life in an industry where 1% of the market buying your game is
> >considered a huge success :-( The market is way too saturated :-(
>
> Still room for some great companies/developers to create fantastic original
> games. Look at Troika Games's "Arcanum". Magic vs Technology in this
> isometric RPG, what a fantastic idea! Kudos for Tim Cain, one of the best
> RPG developers ever, for having the "guts" to do it.
I didn't mean that the market was saturated with great titles, merely that it
was saturated at all. There are so many titles with a pressure to move that
great titles may never get shelf space more than 2 months. You can't "window
shop" software stores any more because of all of the crap ("extreme" sports
games, TV show licensees, fishing and hunting games, etc.).
> Yes, but about the fans' life that he "ruined"? What about all those people
> that met each other on Shadow of Yserbius? What about all the Quest series
> fans? And Larry?
Are you saying he had an obligation to his customers that extended past 16
years of his life?
--
http://www.MobyGames.com/
The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.
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RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
You are correct in both cases. In this instance, I was talking about all Apple PCs...not just the Apple II. I don't mean to confuse the issue. I'm simply saying that it is incorrect to say that the term "PC" only applies to IBM/Intel-compatibles. Hugh -Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 11:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: >Well, you can call it whatever you like. The IBM-compatible PC is a "PC," >but so is Apple and the others. So it isn't correct to only call that brand >a PC. If you chose to be incorrect, that's your choice. >For example, you could incorrectly say something like this, "I was talking >about PCs, not Apples." Excuse me, but then you can't talk about Apples either. Apple is a fruit :) So you'll have to say an Apple Macintosh for it to be correct too > But anybody who knows what a PC is, might think >that you don't. Again your choice. Just like (God forbid) if I had cancer >of the rectum, I wouldn't want the doctor to tell me I had colon cancer just >because it was a shorter or more common term (since that would be >incorrect). I prefer to discuss both my rectum and my PCs correctly :-))). I'm sure that if you start discussing your rectum, most people won't care if you're doing it correctly or not! ;) ;) ;) >Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: >Well, you can call it whatever you like. The IBM-compatible PC is a "PC," >but so is Apple and the others. So it isn't correct to only call that brand >a PC. If you chose to be incorrect, that's your choice. >For example, you could incorrectly say something like this, "I was talking >about PCs, not Apples." Excuse me, but then you can't talk about Apples either. Apple is a fruit :) So you'll have to say an Apple Macintosh for it to be correct too > But anybody who knows what a PC is, might think >that you don't. Again your choice. Just like (God forbid) if I had cancer >of the rectum, I wouldn't want the doctor to tell me I had colon cancer just >because it was a shorter or more common term (since that would be >incorrect). I prefer to discuss both my rectum and my PCs correctly :-))). I'm sure that if you start discussing your rectum, most people won't care if you're doing it correctly or not! ;) ;) ;) >Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Well, you can call it whatever you like. The IBM-compatible PC is a "PC," but so is Apple and the others. So it isn't correct to only call that brand a PC. If you chose to be incorrect, that's your choice. For example, you could incorrectly say something like this, "I was talking about PCs, not Apples." But anybody who knows what a PC is, might think that you don't. Again your choice. Just like (God forbid) if I had cancer of the rectum, I wouldn't want the doctor to tell me I had colon cancer just because it was a shorter or more common term (since that would be incorrect). I prefer to discuss both my rectum and my PCs correctly :-))). Hugh -Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 5:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors >Ah, but let's keep in mind that we are not limited to common vernacular. We >are the "experts" in this field. We are?! :> >Just as doctors, mechanics, etc. have >their own words and terms to discuss their expertise, so should we. But we do, like the pink frisbee, or the OCCID, or the hobbyt, etc! Seriously now, RPGers at least have some specific words/expressions for typical ocurrences in the games. Like "Foozle", "Death Trap", etc. I think this is a bit unique as far as gamers go. >These >words need not be known or understood by the layman or the Oxford >Dictionary. And just like we made up our own grading scale, we shouldn't be >afraid to make up terms when it helps clarify things for those that really >care. Agreed. >On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would >refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as "tapes?" Ugh, for similar reasons, >I don't refer to Intel-based IBM clones only as PCs. Just because it was >common doesn't make it right. "PC" is easier to type than "IBM" (one less char :)), and besides, "IBM" isn't quite correct, it must be "IBM-compatible" then (which takes much longer) I'd stick to PC myself. >Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk boldly stated: > >On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would >refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as "tapes?" Yes, and it still does. Although I understand it sometimes help to stoop to that level to find them at yard sales. 8) I believe classic game (cartridge) collectors sometimes find it helpful to simply say "Atari" and not confuse people with terms like "Vectrex." -- Lee K. Seitz * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/ Wanted: | Visit the Classic Video Games Nexus Vintage Pac-M*n necktie| for all your classic link & news needs! |http://start.at/cvgnexus -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
>Ah, but let's keep in mind that we are not limited to common vernacular. We >are the "experts" in this field. We are?! :> >Just as doctors, mechanics, etc. have >their own words and terms to discuss their expertise, so should we. But we do, like the pink frisbee, or the OCCID, or the hobbyt, etc! Seriously now, RPGers at least have some specific words/expressions for typical ocurrences in the games. Like "Foozle", "Death Trap", etc. I think this is a bit unique as far as gamers go. >These >words need not be known or understood by the layman or the Oxford >Dictionary. And just like we made up our own grading scale, we shouldn't be >afraid to make up terms when it helps clarify things for those that really >care. Agreed. >On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would >refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as "tapes?" Ugh, for similar reasons, >I don't refer to Intel-based IBM clones only as PCs. Just because it was >common doesn't make it right. "PC" is easier to type than "IBM" (one less char :)), and besides, "IBM" isn't quite correct, it must be "IBM-compatible" then (which takes much longer) I'd stick to PC myself. >Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
> On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would > refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as "tapes?" Ugh, for similar reasons, > I don't refer to Intel-based IBM clones only as PCs. Just because it was > common doesn't make it right. Well, talking about pet peeves, if I get one more email with someone referring to C64 or Amiga disk images as "roms" I'll go postal. Karl Kuras http://www.trantornator.com -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Ah, but let's keep in mind that we are not limited to common vernacular. We are the "experts" in this field. Just as doctors, mechanics, etc. have their own words and terms to discuss their expertise, so should we. These words need not be known or understood by the layman or the Oxford Dictionary. And just like we made up our own grading scale, we shouldn't be afraid to make up terms when it helps clarify things for those that really care. On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as "tapes?" Ugh, for similar reasons, I don't refer to Intel-based IBM clones only as PCs. Just because it was common doesn't make it right. Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 3:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: > > Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, > Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should > refer to them like I do on my site -- "Intel-compatibles" or "Intels" for > short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called "IBM-compatibles," but > in hindsight, "Intel-compatibles" is a more appropriate term. This is, of course, what I meant. (I should know better when opening my mouth in this forum :-) When I talk about PC games, I am referring to IBM PC (and compatibles) games. I know that PC means Personal Computer, but after 20 years of slang usage, I think it's safe to say that a PC game means an IBM PC game. This may suck to some people, but I gave up the usage fight a long time ago when the Oxford Dictionary starting putting stuff like "Doh" and "thru" into the dictionary (I am not making that up, BTW). So I won't apologize for abbreviating IBM PC as PC, and I don't have any immediate plans to change my habits. If you REALLY want to talk semantics, I don't ever remember "Intel-compatibles" being part of common vernacular... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
> Hugh Falk wrote: > > > > Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, > > Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should > > refer to them like I do on my site -- "Intel-compatibles" or "Intels" for > > short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called "IBM-compatibles," but > > in hindsight, "Intel-compatibles" is a more appropriate term. > > This is, of course, what I meant. (I should know better when opening my > mouth in this forum :-) When I talk about PC games, I am referring to > IBM PC (and compatibles) games. I know that PC means Personal Computer, > but after 20 years of slang usage, I think it's safe to say that a PC > game means an IBM PC game. This may suck to some people, but I gave up > the usage fight a long time ago when the Oxford Dictionary starting > putting stuff like "Doh" and "thru" into the dictionary (I am not making > that up, BTW). So I won't apologize for abbreviating IBM PC as PC, and > I don't have any immediate plans to change my habits. > > If you REALLY want to talk semantics, I don't ever remember > "Intel-compatibles" being part of common vernacular... OK... the gauntlet has been tossed Let the SEMANTIC WARS BEGIN!!! (sarcasm added at no extra cost) :) Karl Kuras http://www.trantornator.com -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, > Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should > refer to them like I do on my site -- "Intel-compatibles" or "Intels" for > short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called "IBM-compatibles," but > in hindsight, "Intel-compatibles" is a more appropriate term. This is, of course, what I meant. (I should know better when opening my mouth in this forum :-) When I talk about PC games, I am referring to IBM PC (and compatibles) games. I know that PC means Personal Computer, but after 20 years of slang usage, I think it's safe to say that a PC game means an IBM PC game. This may suck to some people, but I gave up the usage fight a long time ago when the Oxford Dictionary starting putting stuff like "Doh" and "thru" into the dictionary (I am not making that up, BTW). So I won't apologize for abbreviating IBM PC as PC, and I don't have any immediate plans to change my habits. If you REALLY want to talk semantics, I don't ever remember "Intel-compatibles" being part of common vernacular... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should refer to them like I do on my site -- "Intel-compatibles" or "Intels" for short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called "IBM-compatibles," but in hindsight, "Intel-compatibles" is a more appropriate term. Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 12:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: > > Okay, well the word has come back from Jon, and the answer > is...inconclusive. He said there wasn't one when he left Epyx to form Free > Fall Associates in 81 (which makes sense, of course). However, there could > have been one made later on. That is exactly the answer I got from the programmer of the original Rescue on Fractalus. And when I asked Will Harvey about the PC version of Music Construction Set, he said "There's a PC version?" This is why the PC versions of these programs are even more rare than the rare games they were ported from. > I do know that there was a C-64 version made in 83 so it's possible that a > DOS version was also made. You mean PC. PC != DOS. For hard-core PC collectors, this is significant. For all you other guys, never mind ;-) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
>> That's not quite the truth. Baldur's Gate 2 sells, doesn't it? And it's 2D. >>True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. >What do you mean? That it took several 3d "mistakes" for people to see that >2d was OK too? I think he means that it took several 3D games to make the genre viable in the public mindshare again. Remember real RPG's almost died out completely in the mid-90's. We had aweful games such as Ultima 8 (and we don't need to start a string trying to justify that titles worthlessness, Richard Gariott's public apology should suffice), and the end of the gold box series and other great franchises, just lead to a complete dirth of RPGs, once the bread and butter of the PC. If he hadn't had a few 3D RPG and RPG/like games in the mid-90's, I don't think Baldur's Gate and other games (the other D&D products for example) would have achieved the success they do today. The computer users needed to be shown that there was in fact life AFTER Quake. Now if they could just somehow do the same for graphic adventures. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
> I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and >I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list, >etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by >the IDSA. My site was up in 1997. Well I can't say anything personally... but by 1997, the abandonware movement (not called that at the time) was old. I remember it being quite prolific (no names please) :) Already by early 1995. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote:
>Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>
> >Yes, but that's not the point; as I explained earlier, the PC versions
> >are signficantly different, rare, or both. Hence the need to get them.
>
> Usually the AppleII versions of most games are more rare
>In what world do you live in? :-)
In a world with more valuable apple games than PC games :)
> The Apple II had a HUGE pirate
>movement all throughout its life.
Of course; Apple games are very easy to crack.
> That's why practically every single
>Apple II game is on Asimov. The PC didn't have a significant pirate
>following until about 1986, but games date back to 1982 (1981 if you
>listen to some pundits). That's why hardly any early PC games are on
>various Abandonware sites.
>Unless, of course, you're talking about the packaged/boxed software, in
>which case I'd agree with you past 1985, and disagree with you pre-1985.
I was talking about the package as a whole, once again. Not the software
itself. And yes, I still think it's still more rare for the pre-1985 Apple
than the PC. Akalabeth RG, Akalabeth CPC, Ultima CPC.
Come on, these triunvirate makes the whole difference >:)
> > >Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy
of
> > >the software, then how do you expect to download it?
> >
> > Only extremely exceptional games aren't downloadable from the net. On
> those
> > games, of course, having a floppy is extremely important
>
> >Bingo.
>
> But they're the exceptions. There aren't that many.
>You must not be familiar with the early PC gaming industry. There are
>easliy a thousand PC games/ports made before 1990 that aren't freely
>downloadble on the 'net. Why do you think my cause is so dedicated?
>;-)
A thousand? Well, if not on the net, they must be available somewhere :)
I've yet only to find a certain PC RPG I've never seen anywhere, not even
on the net: "Alternate Reality: The Dungeon"
> >Who do you think seeded the original Abandonware community anyway? ;-)
>
> Lee? Hugh? Karl? Chris?... H... no idea >:)
>No, not them! ME!
Who? >:]
> I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and
>I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list,
>etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by
>the IDSA. My site was up in 1997.
Did you crack the games? Or just had them on the web?
> > >But of
> > >course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and
> > >buried. :-(
> >
> > Not Origin, but Origin-as-we-know-it. :(
>
> >No, really, it really is dead. They laid everyone else off, and they
> >stopped using the Origin name/logo on packaging late last year. But
> >take heart; Garriot is re-hiring a lot of people for his new company.
>
> Yes, and they've taken a "great" project: they're supporting this
> super-crappy online asian RPG, for it to make a "triumphal" entrance on
the
> US market. Yeah, right.
>Oh, I don't agree with their RPG stuff... but who knows, maybe 3 years
>down the road when they have some seed money they can come up with
>Ultima X.
They can't, "Ultima" is now an EA trademark...
> That's not quite the truth. Baldur's Gate 2 sells, doesn't it? And it's
2D.
>True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this.
What do you mean? That it took several 3d "mistakes" for people to see that
2d was OK too?
>In a mini-return to that subject, can you tell me why you didn't like
>Baulder's Gate 2? Or more specifically, what you wish it had and what
>you wish it hadn't? (Because I just started playing and after 3 hours
>of gameplay I'm not disliking it)
I wasn't disliking it either after 3 hours :) I will mail you privately and
let you know why I think BG2 is so average and therefore doesn't deserve
all the hype.
> "Quakers" love 3d, so some "geniuses" in game companies start directing
> their efforts to please them too. _That_ was their mistake... BG1, BG2,
> Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Diablo 2, Fallout 1&2, they all sold
> pretty decently.
>True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. ;-)
Speaking of an easy 3d comparison, have you seen M&M6 (2d simulating 3d)
and M&M7 (3d)? Now which one has the better graphics? I'd say M&M6, but
most will probably answer M&M7 ("it's 3d" ;))
> Speaking of BG2, can you give me your email, so I can send you my first
> "direct comparison"?
>Sure: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Maybe my questions above would be best answered in email.
I'll start preparing a mail right after I finish this one
> > Because they were first, they ran into a ton of issues and
> >problems. They were penalized, and the product lines abruptly ended.
> >It's a shame to be penalized for being first to market with something.
>
> As I said above, the problem is that they didn't stick to their fans, but
> to other's games fans.
>That's very astute (perceptive) -- and also, unfortunately, a fact of
>life in an industry where 1% of the market buying your game is
>considered a huge success :-( The market
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >Yes, but that's not the point; as I explained earlier, the PC versions > >are signficantly different, rare, or both. Hence the need to get them. > > Usually the AppleII versions of most games are more rare In what world do you live in? :-) The Apple II had a HUGE pirate movement all throughout its life. That's why practically every single Apple II game is on Asimov. The PC didn't have a significant pirate following until about 1986, but games date back to 1982 (1981 if you listen to some pundits). That's why hardly any early PC games are on various Abandonware sites. Unless, of course, you're talking about the packaged/boxed software, in which case I'd agree with you past 1985, and disagree with you pre-1985. > > >Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of > > >the software, then how do you expect to download it? > > > > Only extremely exceptional games aren't downloadable from the net. On > those > > games, of course, having a floppy is extremely important > > >Bingo. > > But they're the exceptions. There aren't that many. You must not be familiar with the early PC gaming industry. There are easliy a thousand PC games/ports made before 1990 that aren't freely downloadble on the 'net. Why do you think my cause is so dedicated? ;-) > >Who do you think seeded the original Abandonware community anyway? ;-) > > Lee? Hugh? Karl? Chris?... H... no idea >:) No, not them! ME! I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list, etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by the IDSA. My site was up in 1997. > > >But of > > >course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and > > >buried. :-( > > > > Not Origin, but Origin-as-we-know-it. :( > > >No, really, it really is dead. They laid everyone else off, and they > >stopped using the Origin name/logo on packaging late last year. But > >take heart; Garriot is re-hiring a lot of people for his new company. > > Yes, and they've taken a "great" project: they're supporting this > super-crappy online asian RPG, for it to make a "triumphal" entrance on the > US market. Yeah, right. Oh, I don't agree with their RPG stuff... but who knows, maybe 3 years down the road when they have some seed money they can come up with Ultima X. > That's not quite the truth. Baldur's Gate 2 sells, doesn't it? And it's 2D. True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. In a mini-return to that subject, can you tell me why you didn't like Baulder's Gate 2? Or more specifically, what you wish it had and what you wish it hadn't? (Because I just started playing and after 3 hours of gameplay I'm not disliking it) > "Quakers" love 3d, so some "geniuses" in game companies start directing > their efforts to please them too. _That_ was their mistake... BG1, BG2, > Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Diablo 2, Fallout 1&2, they all sold > pretty decently. True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. ;-) > Speaking of BG2, can you give me your email, so I can send you my first > "direct comparison"? Sure: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe my questions above would be best answered in email. > > Because they were first, they ran into a ton of issues and > >problems. They were penalized, and the product lines abruptly ended. > >It's a shame to be penalized for being first to market with something. > > As I said above, the problem is that they didn't stick to their fans, but > to other's games fans. That's very astute (perceptive) -- and also, unfortunately, a fact of life in an industry where 1% of the market buying your game is considered a huge success :-( The market is way too saturated :-( > Also, why in the world are great game creators selling their companies to > other bigger ones? Don't tell me RG was so poor he just _had_ to sell to > EA, or that Williams had to sell Sierra to AT&T, or van Caneghem NWC to 3DO > (I wonder how he's surviving so well in there, btw) RG/EA: Many at the company didn't like it, but they needed the development capital to make bigger and better games. It was the beginning of their downfall (exactly why I'm still trying to figure out), but it was also the beginning of their most technologically advanced projects (Wing Commander 3, Strike Commander, Ultima 7, etc.) They wrote their own 3D code (Strike Commander had so much advanced 3D code that then-modern machines couldn't run it quickly), wrote their own memory extenders (which is why it's so damn hard to run U7 on a modern box), etc. and nobody else was doing that at the time. They were trying to innovate, and they succeeded in some areas. Williams: He had said many times before how sad it was that the market had become so saturated, and that you had to claw your way to a 0.5% market share. He didn't sell Sierra because they needed money; he just didn't want to be a part of it any m
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
LKS> Of course it's collectible! You never know when you'll find the disks LKS> loose somewhere. Surely you can't tell me you'd pass over a "pink LKS> frisbee" or Suspended mask package just because the disks were LKS> missing. Obviously a package with disks is worth more than one LKS> without and a one with working disks should be worth more than one LKS> with non-working disks. JL>The Suspended frisbee is a special case -- of course I'd grab it because JL>everyone else is trying to. But I guarantee you I would probably use it JL>as barter or trade material, because EVERYONE has Suspended. So I had the intention of creating that "hobbyt" trademark, but ended up making another one, the "pink frisbee"! :) Hope it continues to catch on! ;) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leaonrd wrote: >Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or > >CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp > >exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean > >jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) > > That's different. You probably have that specific game for other > platform(s), right? >Yes, but that's not the point; as I explained earlier, the PC versions >are signficantly different, rare, or both. Hence the need to get them. Usually the AppleII versions of most games are more rare > >Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of > >the software, then how do you expect to download it? > > Only extremely exceptional games aren't downloadable from the net. On those > games, of course, having a floppy is extremely important >Bingo. But they're the exceptions. There aren't that many. >Who do you think seeded the original Abandonware community anyway? ;-) Lee? Hugh? Karl? Chris?... H... no idea >:) > >But of > >course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and > >buried. :-( > > Not Origin, but Origin-as-we-know-it. :( >No, really, it really is dead. They laid everyone else off, and they >stopped using the Origin name/logo on packaging late last year. But >take heart; Garriot is re-hiring a lot of people for his new company. Yes, and they've taken a "great" project: they're supporting this super-crappy online asian RPG, for it to make a "triumphal" entrance on the US market. Yeah, right. > I hope RG eventually makes another RPG that dignifies his past. >Same, as Ultima IX certainly wasn't... So wasn't VIII... it's a shame, they'd been gradually going downhill >That's actually not fair. The final chapters in several long series, >King's Quest and Ultima, were 3D because that's what the market >demanded. That's not quite the truth. Baldur's Gate 2 sells, doesn't it? And it's 2D. "Quakers" love 3d, so some "geniuses" in game companies start directing their efforts to please them too. _That_ was their mistake... BG1, BG2, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Diablo 2, Fallout 1&2, they all sold pretty decently. Speaking of BG2, can you give me your email, so I can send you my first "direct comparison"? > Because they were first, they ran into a ton of issues and >problems. They were penalized, and the product lines abruptly ended. >It's a shame to be penalized for being first to market with something. As I said above, the problem is that they didn't stick to their fans, but to other's games fans. Also, why in the world are great game creators selling their companies to other bigger ones? Don't tell me RG was so poor he just _had_ to sell to EA, or that Williams had to sell Sierra to AT&T, or van Caneghem NWC to 3DO (I wonder how he's surviving so well in there, btw) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > Okay, well the word has come back from Jon, and the answer > is...inconclusive. He said there wasn't one when he left Epyx to form Free > Fall Associates in 81 (which makes sense, of course). However, there could > have been one made later on. That is exactly the answer I got from the programmer of the original Rescue on Fractalus. And when I asked Will Harvey about the PC version of Music Construction Set, he said "There's a PC version?" This is why the PC versions of these programs are even more rare than the rare games they were ported from. > I do know that there was a C-64 version made in 83 so it's possible that a > DOS version was also made. You mean PC. PC != DOS. For hard-core PC collectors, this is significant. For all you other guys, never mind ;-) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Okay, well the word has come back from Jon, and the answer is...inconclusive. He said there wasn't one when he left Epyx to form Free Fall Associates in 81 (which makes sense, of course). However, there could have been one made later on. I do know that there was a C-64 version made in 83 so it's possible that a DOS version was also made. Hugh -Original Message- From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Jim, I've sent Jon Freeman a note asking if a DOS version of CCC exists. He made the game and has an excellent memory, so I should be able to let you know soon. Why isn't Quest for the Ring at the top of my list? You should read my thoughts about what makes a game "valuable." It can be found at: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/collectibles.htm But I'll paste it here as well: A "collectible" computer game is a game that is more valuable than the average game that can be purchased in the store today. GOTCHA does not presume to determine prices for classic games; instead "value" is used here as a measurement of desirability for classic gaming enthusiasts. Game value will constantly fluctuate based upon the whims of collectors; however, a classic game generally will have greater value if it meets one of these criteria: 1)It is a great game. A great game is like a great work of art. Veteran gamers still remember and desire these games. Future generations will learn about them as classics. 2)It is a rare game. More people start collecting computer games every day. As more people become involved, less classic games will be available for the others. Therefore the games that were produced in lower quantities or with low survival rates are often highly sought after. Just like any business, there is a law of supply and demand that can raise a game's value. Keep in mind that not all rare games are valuable. If a game was not a great game (see #1) it may have been "rare" for a good reason...nobody wanted it. If that is the case, it still may be unwanted. 3)It is a particularly old game. In computer gaming terms, anything from 1983 or earlier fits this category. Old games are generally desirable because they were often produced in lower quantities and have lower survival rates (see #2). While many of them may not be great (see #1) by today's standards, they are often groundbreaking and therefore deserve recognition. Much like Edison's original films, they have historical value if not artistic value. Old games are not necessarily rare. For example, 1979's Star Raiders is still readily available, mostly because it was a great game and very popular. It also came in cartridge format and durable packaging, which gives it a very good survival rate. 4)It is in good condition. A game's condition probably has the most profound effect on its value. See GOTCHA's Conditions page for the various grades. Obviously, the better the condition, the more valuable the game. However, condition alone can't make a game collectible. Condition is a modifier of value on an already collectible game. Of course, the most valuable games meet all four criteria above. -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 5:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >Not the point -- if it's rare, *nobody* has copies. Which is why I try > >to collect them -- to make copies before the software is lost forever. > > It's not the Starcross floppies that make the game rare, right? :) No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) > > >But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look > > >at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, > > >right? > > > > No? >:) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper > > maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. > > >Yes, but you still need the software. > > But the software I can get anywhere, even download it from the net, on > extreme situations Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of the software, then how do you expect to download it? > > Trinkets are way cool, I agree, > >but the software is the entire point they were created in the first > >place. > > Yes, but sometimes the software doesn't matter! I knew Ultima Ascension was > crap, but I still bought the Dragon Edition f
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard boldly stated: > >"Lee K. Seitz" wrote: >> >> them in to get one.) Many people have it at the top of their wanted >> list, but (even discounting one-of-a-kind prototypes) there are >> certainly other games that are rarer. > >What's rarer than a one-of-a-kind prototype? I thought prototypes were >the Holy Grail of cart collecting... Let me restate what I said in a way that's perhaps vaguely more intelligible: Many people have it (Chase the Chuck Wagon) at the top of their wanted list, but there are certainly other games that are rarer than CtCW. And I'm not talking about one-of-a-kind prototypes. -- Lee K. Seitz * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/ Wanted: | Visit the Classic Video Games Nexus Vintage Pac-M*n necktie| for all your classic link & news needs! |http://start.at/cvgnexus -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > Cracked? What do you mean? I have the original box and disk that says on > the EA label: "IBM XT, PC, PCjr, COMPAQ" PC does not equal "DOS". It is a bootable disk, like Pinball Construction Set, Music Construction Set, Dr J. and Larry Bird go One on One, and other conversions. You stick the disk in and turn on the PC, and it boots directly using custom code. The fact that it is NOT a DOS executable makes it valuable because unless it is cracked it is impossible to play on a modern machine without jumping though hoops. Check http://www.oldskool.org/pc/flopper/ for some more info. Cracking bootable games is a black art -- and converting them to .EXE files is even blacker. There's a link to Retrograde Station off of the Flopper page mentioned above that lists a large number of bootables that I've helped supply and crack, if you're interested. Most were extremely rare until we supplied them to the world. You know, noble cause and all that. :-) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Cracked? What do you mean? I have the original box and disk that says on the EA label: "IBM XT, PC, PCjr, COMPAQ" Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 2:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: > > About Murder on the Zinderneuf...I have the DOS version, and I'm in the > Northern Hemisphere! :-) I had no idea it was valuable at all. I don't That's because the DOS version isn't DOS -- it's a booter. You must have a cracked copy. Unless, of course, my sources are wrong. I will find out and report back. (Shouts from the swcollect community: "No! Don't do it! Don't crack the wrap!") ;-) > remember where/when I got mine, but the person would have been lucky to get > $5 for it. I don't see how the DOS version would have been especially rare. PC games are generally pretty rare because people didn't really use the PC to play games until about 1985, when the industry started to move and Apple/C64/Atari stayed in the same place. > EA was notorious for mass producing games. The DOS version didn't come out > until 1984 -- the original (Atari 800 version, 1983) has the distinction of > being the first game to sign a contract with EA (it is also historically > significant, of course, because it was written by Free Fall Associates -- > also of Archon fame -- Jim Freeman's (founder of Epyx) company). So in my > opinion, the Atari 800 version is far move "valuable" from a historic > standpoint. I didn't know the DOS version was especially rare, but I'll > keep an eye out from now on! There is another EA Flat for DOS only called > Radio Baseball. I haven't seen many of these around, so maybe the DOS > versions of EA games are more rare...maybe they didn't sell well. Exactly. They didn't sell well. And the PC versions may or may not have significant improvments (or detriments) in gameplay and features. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
"Lee K. Seitz" wrote: > > them in to get one.) Many people have it at the top of their wanted > list, but (even discounting one-of-a-kind prototypes) there are > certainly other games that are rarer. What's rarer than a one-of-a-kind prototype? I thought prototypes were the Holy Grail of cart collecting... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
"Lee K. Seitz" wrote: > > Jim Leonard boldly stated: > > > >That's not quite what I meant, but you pose an interesting point: Is a > >software package without diskettes collectable at all? I would love to > >hear everyone's thoughts on this. Personally, I can't place any value > >at all in a software package that is missing the actual software. No > >matter how excellent the package and materials are in, it's worthless > >for me without the actual product, which is sort of the point. Even if > >the disks are bad, they have to be there (although bad disks are a > >severe disappointment). > > Of course it's collectible! You never know when you'll find the disks > loose somewhere. Surely you can't tell me you'd pass over a "pink > frisbee" or Suspended mask package just because the disks were > missing. Obviously a package with disks is worth more than one > without and a one with working disks should be worth more than one > with non-working disks. The Suspended frisbee is a special case -- of course I'd grab it because everyone else is trying to. But I guarantee you I would probably use it as barter or trade material, because EVERYONE has Suspended. I guess it all goes to say that worth and/or value is in the eye of the beholder. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > About Murder on the Zinderneuf...I have the DOS version, and I'm in the > Northern Hemisphere! :-) I had no idea it was valuable at all. I don't That's because the DOS version isn't DOS -- it's a booter. You must have a cracked copy. Unless, of course, my sources are wrong. I will find out and report back. (Shouts from the swcollect community: "No! Don't do it! Don't crack the wrap!") ;-) > remember where/when I got mine, but the person would have been lucky to get > $5 for it. I don't see how the DOS version would have been especially rare. PC games are generally pretty rare because people didn't really use the PC to play games until about 1985, when the industry started to move and Apple/C64/Atari stayed in the same place. > EA was notorious for mass producing games. The DOS version didn't come out > until 1984 -- the original (Atari 800 version, 1983) has the distinction of > being the first game to sign a contract with EA (it is also historically > significant, of course, because it was written by Free Fall Associates -- > also of Archon fame -- Jim Freeman's (founder of Epyx) company). So in my > opinion, the Atari 800 version is far move "valuable" from a historic > standpoint. I didn't know the DOS version was especially rare, but I'll > keep an eye out from now on! There is another EA Flat for DOS only called > Radio Baseball. I haven't seen many of these around, so maybe the DOS > versions of EA games are more rare...maybe they didn't sell well. Exactly. They didn't sell well. And the PC versions may or may not have significant improvments (or detriments) in gameplay and features. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or > >CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp > >exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean > >jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) > > That's different. You probably have that specific game for other > platform(s), right? Yes, but that's not the point; as I explained earlier, the PC versions are signficantly different, rare, or both. Hence the need to get them. > >Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of > >the software, then how do you expect to download it? > > Only extremely exceptional games aren't downloadable from the net. On those > games, of course, having a floppy is extremely important Bingo. Who do you think seeded the original Abandonware community anyway? ;-) > >But of > >course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and > >buried. :-( > > Not Origin, but Origin-as-we-know-it. :( No, really, it really is dead. They laid everyone else off, and they stopped using the Origin name/logo on packaging late last year. But take heart; Garriot is re-hiring a lot of people for his new company. > I hope RG eventually makes another RPG that dignifies his past. Same, as Ultima IX certainly wasn't... That's actually not fair. The final chapters in several long series, King's Quest and Ultima, were 3D because that's what the market demanded. Because they were first, they ran into a ton of issues and problems. They were penalized, and the product lines abruptly ended. It's a shame to be penalized for being first to market with something. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard boldly stated: > >What continually confuses me is that there are at least 50 times the >number of copies of Ultimas, Infocoms, etc. than there are of titles >like Cyborg for the PC. Cyborg PC is definitely an extremely rare >item. So why isn't it extremely sought after, or valued highly? Or >ICON: Quest for the Ring... there were only 1000 made. Why isn't that >at the top of everyone's list? Hmmm, interesting question. Maybe everyone realizes that because there are so few, they're chances of getting one are remote and they don't want to fret over it. 8) In the classic video games world, rare games are (generally) highly sought after, but have a reputation for being bad games. (That's often one reason they're rare now.) There's also a fame factor. Chase the Chuck Wagon has become famous as being a hard to find Atari 2600 game. (You had to collect Purina dog food proofs of purchase and send them in to get one.) Many people have it at the top of their wanted list, but (even discounting one-of-a-kind prototypes) there are certainly other games that are rarer. -- Lee K. Seitz * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/ Wanted: | Visit the Classic Video Games Nexus Vintage Pac-M*n necktie| for all your classic link & news needs! |http://start.at/cvgnexus -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard boldly stated: > >That's not quite what I meant, but you pose an interesting point: Is a >software package without diskettes collectable at all? I would love to >hear everyone's thoughts on this. Personally, I can't place any value >at all in a software package that is missing the actual software. No >matter how excellent the package and materials are in, it's worthless >for me without the actual product, which is sort of the point. Even if >the disks are bad, they have to be there (although bad disks are a >severe disappointment). Of course it's collectible! You never know when you'll find the disks loose somewhere. Surely you can't tell me you'd pass over a "pink frisbee" or Suspended mask package just because the disks were missing. Obviously a package with disks is worth more than one without and a one with working disks should be worth more than one with non-working disks. -- Lee K. Seitz * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/ Wanted: | Visit the Classic Video Games Nexus Vintage Pac-M*n necktie| for all your classic link & news needs! |http://start.at/cvgnexus -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim, I've sent Jon Freeman a note asking if a DOS version of CCC exists. He made the game and has an excellent memory, so I should be able to let you know soon. Why isn't Quest for the Ring at the top of my list? You should read my thoughts about what makes a game "valuable." It can be found at: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/collectibles.htm But I'll paste it here as well: A "collectible" computer game is a game that is more valuable than the average game that can be purchased in the store today. GOTCHA does not presume to determine prices for classic games; instead "value" is used here as a measurement of desirability for classic gaming enthusiasts. Game value will constantly fluctuate based upon the whims of collectors; however, a classic game generally will have greater value if it meets one of these criteria: 1)It is a great game. A great game is like a great work of art. Veteran gamers still remember and desire these games. Future generations will learn about them as classics. 2)It is a rare game. More people start collecting computer games every day. As more people become involved, less classic games will be available for the others. Therefore the games that were produced in lower quantities or with low survival rates are often highly sought after. Just like any business, there is a law of supply and demand that can raise a game's value. Keep in mind that not all rare games are valuable. If a game was not a great game (see #1) it may have been "rare" for a good reason...nobody wanted it. If that is the case, it still may be unwanted. 3)It is a particularly old game. In computer gaming terms, anything from 1983 or earlier fits this category. Old games are generally desirable because they were often produced in lower quantities and have lower survival rates (see #2). While many of them may not be great (see #1) by today's standards, they are often groundbreaking and therefore deserve recognition. Much like Edison's original films, they have historical value if not artistic value. Old games are not necessarily rare. For example, 1979's Star Raiders is still readily available, mostly because it was a great game and very popular. It also came in cartridge format and durable packaging, which gives it a very good survival rate. 4)It is in good condition. A game's condition probably has the most profound effect on its value. See GOTCHA's Conditions page for the various grades. Obviously, the better the condition, the more valuable the game. However, condition alone can't make a game collectible. Condition is a modifier of value on an already collectible game. Of course, the most valuable games meet all four criteria above. -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 5:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >Not the point -- if it's rare, *nobody* has copies. Which is why I try > >to collect them -- to make copies before the software is lost forever. > > It's not the Starcross floppies that make the game rare, right? :) No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) > > >But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look > > >at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, > > >right? > > > > No? >:) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper > > maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. > > >Yes, but you still need the software. > > But the software I can get anywhere, even download it from the net, on > extreme situations Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of the software, then how do you expect to download it? > > Trinkets are way cool, I agree, > >but the software is the entire point they were created in the first > >place. > > Yes, but sometimes the software doesn't matter! I knew Ultima Ascension was > crap, but I still bought the Dragon Edition for all the goodies Again, special case -- the Dragon edition was specifically assembled and marketed as a collector's edition. Most software (sadly) isn't this way. > > Otherwise they could've just sold books with a little pouch of > >stuff attached to each book. Would we be collecting those if it were > >the case? (hint: no ;-) > > If suddenly Origin started selling old, mint, Ultima 4 manuals (spares), > they would sell like strawberry muffins! :) .and the overall value of Ultima 4
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
About Murder on the Zinderneuf...I have the DOS version, and I'm in the Northern Hemisphere! :-) I had no idea it was valuable at all. I don't remember where/when I got mine, but the person would have been lucky to get $5 for it. I don't see how the DOS version would have been especially rare. EA was notorious for mass producing games. The DOS version didn't come out until 1984 -- the original (Atari 800 version, 1983) has the distinction of being the first game to sign a contract with EA (it is also historically significant, of course, because it was written by Free Fall Associates -- also of Archon fame -- Jim Freeman's (founder of Epyx) company). So in my opinion, the Atari 800 version is far move "valuable" from a historic standpoint. I didn't know the DOS version was especially rare, but I'll keep an eye out from now on! There is another EA Flat for DOS only called Radio Baseball. I haven't seen many of these around, so maybe the DOS versions of EA games are more rare...maybe they didn't sell well. By the way, to blow my own horn, if I have one area of expertise it would be EA flat box games. I have one of the few complete collections of EA flats that I know about (some of you probably have complete as well). I don't have every platform, but I do have every title. Anyone who wants to know more on the topic should visit my EA Flats page: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/eaflats.htm Or my EA History page: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/ea.htm Or my Epyx History (Free Fall Associates) page: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/epyx.htm Best regards, Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 9:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors "C.E. Forman" wrote: > > >So I'm actually not surprised that anyone who "collects" > >anything has a slight bit of a neurological disorder. > > It would explain a lot of odd, quirkish behavior. And I myself am mildly > obsessive-compulsive in other areas of my life besides collecting. I think anyone who collects anything fits this criteria. Something for a thesis study, no doubt. > >I purchase 2 of everything: 1 to appreciate, and the other to crack the > >shrinkwrap on. > > I'm this way with my Infocoms (you just have to be able to get at the > props), but I've got to know: If you get a shrinked copy BEFORE you get an > opened copy, do you personally (1) break the wrap first and risk not being > able to appreciate another wrapped copy for a long long time, or (2) hang > onto the wrapped copy until you find another wrapped copy or one that's > already been opened, and take the chance that the disk media will go bad > while you're waiting? Jim, from what you write after this statement it > sounds like you're definitely in the first category... How about everyone > else? I'm definitely in the first category. I crack the wrap. And you'll just love this one: Sometimes I buy a third so that I can cut up the manual. Yes, I cut all the pages out of the manual. This is so I can get the best possible scan of the manual pages for creating an archival quality PDF of them (the stuff on Underdogs is mostly crap). > >(!!!) Yes, I break original shrinkwrap so that I can > >release the game to the public domain if nobody else has. Why do you > >think the hardcore oldwarez community is so eager to get their hands on > >Chris' copy of Cyborg? Because it may very well be the last copy that > >exists, and we want to copy the disk before it goes bad and fades away. > > This raises an interesting dilemma, and the main reason I continually refuse > to open it: Suppose I did break the wrap, I went to copy the disk... and > it's already bad? The retrogamers are upset because they won't be able to > play it after all. I'm out my shrinkwrapped package with absolutely nothing > to show for it. But there's no way to tell that until I do crack it. > Classic "Schroedinger's Cat". I don't gamble with my collection. It's definitely a classic schroedinger's cat. There's just no way to know. And so we wait for another copy to turn up. > (I've dealt with my other reasons in Shoppe columns enough times that I > won't bore you reciting them again here.) What, you have other reasons? :-) I think the above is the best reason. I totally support you, BTW -- it just sucks for both of us. Somewhere, someday, another copy will turn up. We hope. > >Sadly for us -- and detailed in an old conversation that you can look at > >in the archives -- Chris and many other collectors place much less value > >on the diskette than the entire pack
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote: >Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >Not the point -- if it's rare, *nobody* has copies. Which is why I try > >to collect them -- to make copies before the software is lost forever. > > It's not the Starcross floppies that make the game rare, right? :) >No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or >CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp >exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean >jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) That's different. You probably have that specific game for other platform(s), right? > > >But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look > > >at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, > > >right? > > > > No? >:) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper > > maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. > > >Yes, but you still need the software. > > But the software I can get anywhere, even download it from the net, on > extreme situations >Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of >the software, then how do you expect to download it? Only extremely exceptional games aren't downloadable from the net. On those games, of course, having a floppy is extremely important > > Trinkets are way cool, I agree, > >but the software is the entire point they were created in the first > >place. > > Yes, but sometimes the software doesn't matter! I knew Ultima Ascension was > crap, but I still bought the Dragon Edition for all the goodies >Again, special case -- the Dragon edition was specifically assembled and >marketed as a collector's edition. Most software (sadly) isn't this >way. Ultima 4/5/6 without trinkets are worth half... Starcross/Suspended without the pink frisbee (I just love calling the saucer that!) and the mask aren't worth one tenth, Ultima CPC without the cover art is worth 1/10th too... > > Otherwise they could've just sold books with a little pouch of > >stuff attached to each book. Would we be collecting those if it were > >the case? (hint: no ;-) > > If suddenly Origin started selling old, mint, Ultima 4 manuals (spares), > they would sell like strawberry muffins! :) >..and the overall value of Ultima 4 manuals would diminish ;-) Nah, Origin are (were :| ) experts in reselling stuff as "Special Editions"! ;) >But of >course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and >buried. :-( Not Origin, but Origin-as-we-know-it. :( I hope RG eventually makes another RPG that dignifies his past. >What continually confuses me is that there are at least 50 times the >number of copies of Ultimas, Infocoms, etc. than there are of titles >like Cyborg for the PC. Cyborg PC is definitely an extremely rare >item. So why isn't it extremely sought after, or valued highly? Or >ICON: Quest for the Ring... there were only 1000 made. Why isn't that >at the top of everyone's list? Want me to be honest? I never even heard of either. Maybe it's because Meretzky and Garriott are more famous than the creators of both? I'm sure neither is a RPG, or I would have known about them and the creators. But that's an interesting topic, indeed. Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >Not the point -- if it's rare, *nobody* has copies. Which is why I try > >to collect them -- to make copies before the software is lost forever. > > It's not the Starcross floppies that make the game rare, right? :) No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) > > >But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look > > >at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, > > >right? > > > > No? >:) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper > > maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. > > >Yes, but you still need the software. > > But the software I can get anywhere, even download it from the net, on > extreme situations Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of the software, then how do you expect to download it? > > Trinkets are way cool, I agree, > >but the software is the entire point they were created in the first > >place. > > Yes, but sometimes the software doesn't matter! I knew Ultima Ascension was > crap, but I still bought the Dragon Edition for all the goodies Again, special case -- the Dragon edition was specifically assembled and marketed as a collector's edition. Most software (sadly) isn't this way. > > Otherwise they could've just sold books with a little pouch of > >stuff attached to each book. Would we be collecting those if it were > >the case? (hint: no ;-) > > If suddenly Origin started selling old, mint, Ultima 4 manuals (spares), > they would sell like strawberry muffins! :) ..and the overall value of Ultima 4 manuals would diminish ;-) But of course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and buried. :-( What continually confuses me is that there are at least 50 times the number of copies of Ultimas, Infocoms, etc. than there are of titles like Cyborg for the PC. Cyborg PC is definitely an extremely rare item. So why isn't it extremely sought after, or valued highly? Or ICON: Quest for the Ring... there were only 1000 made. Why isn't that at the top of everyone's list? -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote: >Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > I'd say yes. Definitely yes for me. Original floppies are so easy to find >Easy to find? Over here, rare games are rare, disks only or not. I can more easily find floppies from a rare game than a box from a rare game > You can get backups everywhere, and most of the times you probably have one > handy yourself, so why worry? :) >Not the point -- if it's rare, *nobody* has copies. Which is why I try >to collect them -- to make copies before the software is lost forever. It's not the Starcross floppies that make the game rare, right? :) > >But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look > >at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, > >right? > > No? >:) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper > maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. >Yes, but you still need the software. But the software I can get anywhere, even download it from the net, on extreme situations > Trinkets are way cool, I agree, >but the software is the entire point they were created in the first >place. Yes, but sometimes the software doesn't matter! I knew Ultima Ascension was crap, but I still bought the Dragon Edition for all the goodies > Otherwise they could've just sold books with a little pouch of >stuff attached to each book. Would we be collecting those if it were >the case? (hint: no ;-) If suddenly Origin started selling old, mint, Ultima 4 manuals (spares), they would sell like strawberry muffins! :) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >I myself am slightly that, as I am slightly ADD (attention deficit > >disorder). So is my wife, and we bore two children: one is autistic, > >and the other has apraxia (speech delay, but thankfully nothing else). > >My father is one of the world's most renouned Numismatists (coin > >collector). > > He is? What's his name, if I may ask? I'm a numismatic myself, but a small > one at that. Robert Leonard. Although he's bigger in the States than international... although he was president of the ANA (American Numismatics Association) for a year. > >At least, that's the excuse I give my wife when I bid on a Cyborg for > >$250 ;-) > > The same you talk about below? How much did that end at? I was just being humorous. No such thing happened. > >Even Michael Berlyn doesn't have a copy of his own code any more. > > I didn't know that. The last one? The last one we know of, anyway. > (Hey Chris, I have another two pink freesb... errr.. Starcross saucers for > you right here!) > > >Sadly for us -- and detailed in an old conversation that you can look at > >in the archives -- Chris and many other collectors place much less value > >on the diskette than the entire package. > > I'm like Chris, then. I'd rather have box and manual and no floppies, than > working floppies and nothing else. That's not quite what I meant, but you pose an interesting point: Is a software package without diskettes collectable at all? I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this. Personally, I can't place any value at all in a software package that is missing the actual software. No matter how excellent the package and materials are in, it's worthless for me without the actual product, which is sort of the point. Even if the disks are bad, they have to be there (although bad disks are a severe disappointment). > >Me personally, if I crack open > >a rare game only to find that the disk is bad, the entire thing is > >nearly worthless for me. What good is a game that you CAN'T PLAY? :-) > > You can look at it. And regarding that, a manual and a box are more > interesting to look at than some floppies! But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, right? > Do you think the guy that gave Jason Cobb a 5-digit-value for his Akalabeth > actually cared if the floppy worked or not? That's different. That's a rare collector's item -- not just any item, but one that represents a 2-decade gaming legacy. That is a very, very special case. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > I'd say yes. Definitely yes for me. Original floppies are so easy to find Easy to find? Over here, rare games are rare, disks only or not. > You can get backups everywhere, and most of the times you probably have one > handy yourself, so why worry? :) Not the point -- if it's rare, *nobody* has copies. Which is why I try to collect them -- to make copies before the software is lost forever. > >But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look > >at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, > >right? > > No? >:) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper > maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. Yes, but you still need the software. Trinkets are way cool, I agree, but the software is the entire point they were created in the first place. Otherwise they could've just sold books with a little pouch of stuff attached to each book. Would we be collecting those if it were the case? (hint: no ;-) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote: >Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >I myself am slightly that, as I am slightly ADD (attention deficit > >disorder). So is my wife, and we bore two children: one is autistic, > >and the other has apraxia (speech delay, but thankfully nothing else). > >My father is one of the world's most renouned Numismatists (coin > >collector). > > He is? What's his name, if I may ask? I'm a numismatic myself, but a small > one at that. >Robert Leonard. Although he's bigger in the States than >international... although he was president of the ANA (American >Numismatics Association) for a year. I'll write down his name. As an "amateur", I always love to learn more about the "pros" :) > >At least, that's the excuse I give my wife when I bid on a Cyborg for > >$250 ;-) > > The same you talk about below? How much did that end at? >I was just being humorous. No such thing happened. Ah, OK. If the game is so rare, I wouldn't be surprised if it ever happened! > >Even Michael Berlyn doesn't have a copy of his own code any more. > > I didn't know that. The last one? >The last one we know of, anyway. For which platforms was it made? Or is it just a PC version that's rare? > (Hey Chris, I have another two pink freesb... errr.. Starcross saucers for > you right here!) > > >Sadly for us -- and detailed in an old conversation that you can look at > >in the archives -- Chris and many other collectors place much less value > >on the diskette than the entire package. > > I'm like Chris, then. I'd rather have box and manual and no floppies, than > working floppies and nothing else. >That's not quite what I meant, but you pose an interesting point: Is a >software package without diskettes collectable at all? I would love to >hear everyone's thoughts on this. I'd say yes. Definitely yes for me. Original floppies are so easy to find (even if they don't work, most of the times it's not important), but manuals and boxes in good condition are more difficult. >Personally, I can't place any value >at all in a software package that is missing the actual software. No >matter how excellent the package and materials are in, it's worthless >for me without the actual product, which is sort of the point. Even if >the disks are bad, they have to be there Of course, I prefer having the floppies, but it's really not the more important to me. >(although bad disks are a >severe disappointment). You can get backups everywhere, and most of the times you probably have one handy yourself, so why worry? :) > >Me personally, if I crack open > >a rare game only to find that the disk is bad, the entire thing is > >nearly worthless for me. What good is a game that you CAN'T PLAY? :-) > > You can look at it. And regarding that, a manual and a box are more > interesting to look at than some floppies! >But the game is infinitely more interesting to *play* than it is to look >at the manual...? That is the entire point the manual was created for, >right? No? >:) If it were, Origin could have sold their games with regular paper maps and stuff. No trinkets or special editions. > Do you think the guy that gave Jason Cobb a 5-digit-value for his Akalabeth > actually cared if the floppy worked or not? >That's different. That's a rare collector's item -- not just any item, >but one that represents a 2-decade gaming legacy. That is a very, very >special case. That's true, but still a testimony in our favor! >:) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote: > > > He is? What's his name, if I may ask? I'm a numismatic myself, but a small > > one at that. > > Robert Leonard. Although he's bigger in the States than > international... although he was president of the ANA (American > Numismatics Association) for a year. I should add that he is more noted for his articles than his personality/celebrity... For example, he was able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Should of Turin was a fake over a decade before it was carbon-dated and scientifically proven. He did this by proving that the coin imprints on the eyes of the image of Christ were struck hundreds of years after Christ actually died. Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled swcollections... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote: >Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > Hugh Falk wrote, > >Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima > >IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say > >that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond > >recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of > >all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! > > If someone tried to sell you 20 Suspended with the masks, for $1 a piece, > wouldn't you buy them all? =) >Yes, but of course that is a rare theoretical case that would probably >never happen. But if it did, you'd have 10 of the same game! Besides, it did happen once! OK, in YOIS April Fool's Day column, but nevertheless... ;) > E huh h... I'll stick to "habbyt" I think. >I like OCCID myself. As in, "I'm an OCCID." "You're an oxid?! You're made of metal?!" =) Nah, I don't like the way it sounds... "Hi, I'm an hobbyt" "H, you're not _that_ short!" ;) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote: >Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > Jim Leonard wrote: > >Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > > > I thought of "habyt", "hobit", but ended up with "hobbyt", how does it > > sound? > > >Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. > > You have just stated that about 50% of game collectors in the world, and > including reknown ones like Jason P. Cobb suffer from a mental disorder. > Bravo! You have superseeded yourself. >I myself am slightly that, as I am slightly ADD (attention deficit >disorder). So is my wife, and we bore two children: one is autistic, >and the other has apraxia (speech delay, but thankfully nothing else). >My father is one of the world's most renouned Numismatists (coin >collector). He is? What's his name, if I may ask? I'm a numismatic myself, but a small one at that. (I wish I had as many Ultimas as coins! ;)) >So I'm actually not surprised that anyone who "collects" >anything has a slight bit of a neurological disorder. Sorry, I cannot agree, once again. If you say that everyone in the world suffers, to a different extent, a slight bit of any neurological disorder (there's a Portuguese saying that goes: "We all have a bit of a doctor, poet and madman"... hey, it sounds great in Portuguese. Really 0:)), I may agree. But saying that we have a disorder therefore we collect, or vice-versa, no. >At least, that's the excuse I give my wife when I bid on a Cyborg for >$250 ;-) The same you talk about below? How much did that end at? > >Unless you're > >grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more > >than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? > > If you ask questions like the one above, it makes me wonder, do you > _really_ collect games? >Of course! I own over 600. I think I don't even have 100 now... :| >But my motiviations are different than >yours (and most collectors). I'll explain my motivations later in this >email. After reading the text below, I wouldn't say "most". > OK, here's the short answer: > > a) When they're different versions b) when they are sold in a bundle in > which I wanted some other thing from it c) When it's sold really really > really cheap. >All valid reasons. But when you wrote 4th or 5th, you were implying >that you were grabbing 4 or 5 of the same thing, hence my question. I didn't grab them all at the same time, of course. I got the first one for obvious reasons. The second because the first was incomplete, the third because it came on a bundle (incomplete again), the 4th sold cheaply by another collector who won an auction and he didn't want it, and the 5th because it was amazingly cheap. As I said, I'd have gotten rid of some/many if I ever found anybody interested in them. >I purchase 2 of everything: 1 to appreciate, and the other to crack the >shrinkwrap on. (!!!) If I had the $ I'd probably do the same :( >Yes, I break original shrinkwrap so that I can >release the game to the public domain if nobody else has. Why do you >think the hardcore oldwarez community is so eager to get their hands on >Chris' copy of Cyborg? Because it may very well be the last copy that >exists, and we want to copy the disk before it goes bad and fades away. >Even Michael Berlyn doesn't have a copy of his own code any more. I didn't know that. The last one? (Hey Chris, I have another two pink freesb... errr.. Starcross saucers for you right here!) >Sadly for us -- and detailed in an old conversation that you can look at >in the archives -- Chris and many other collectors place much less value >on the diskette than the entire package. I'm like Chris, then. I'd rather have box and manual and no floppies, than working floppies and nothing else. >Me personally, if I crack open >a rare game only to find that the disk is bad, the entire thing is >nearly worthless for me. What good is a game that you CAN'T PLAY? :-) You can look at it. And regarding that, a manual and a box are more interesting to look at than some floppies! Do you think the guy that gave Jason Cobb a 5-digit-value for his Akalabeth actually cared if the floppy worked or not? Also, none of my Ultima 4's is the IBM version! what about that? :) >Along similar lines, I like to perform "restoration" on old games: If >the original disk is bad, I can replace it exactly with a (protected) >copy of itself from my archives, a bit-for-bit exact copy with even the >protection intact. I also throw in a 5.25" and 3.5" disk of an >unprotected copy into the package "just in case". I only have PCs (and now one Amiga), so I have no idea if 75% of my games work (which reminds me of a topic I'll bring up here eventually) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing li
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Sure, I'd trade away 90% of those Suspended too, the same way I'd trade away 2 or 3 of my Ultima 4... if anybody wanted them! :) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" "Hugh Falk" pring.com>A/C: Ref: 02-07-2001cc: 17:07 Assunto: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Solicita-se resposta a swcollect Absolutely I would buy them all! However, I would likely use 90% of them as trade material to get other games I wanted. But that would be the only reason I buy something I already own...because I can get something else I want...eventually. Hugh -Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote, >Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima >IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say >that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond >recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of >all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! If someone tried to sell you 20 Suspended with the masks, for $1 a piece, wouldn't you buy them all? =) >Pedro is trying to corner the market! :-) Nah, it's the other way around: the market is trying to corner me into buying more! ;) >As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In >Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). E huh h... I'll stick to "habbyt" I think. >Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
"C.E. Forman" wrote: > > >So I'm actually not surprised that anyone who "collects" > >anything has a slight bit of a neurological disorder. > > It would explain a lot of odd, quirkish behavior. And I myself am mildly > obsessive-compulsive in other areas of my life besides collecting. I think anyone who collects anything fits this criteria. Something for a thesis study, no doubt. > >I purchase 2 of everything: 1 to appreciate, and the other to crack the > >shrinkwrap on. > > I'm this way with my Infocoms (you just have to be able to get at the > props), but I've got to know: If you get a shrinked copy BEFORE you get an > opened copy, do you personally (1) break the wrap first and risk not being > able to appreciate another wrapped copy for a long long time, or (2) hang > onto the wrapped copy until you find another wrapped copy or one that's > already been opened, and take the chance that the disk media will go bad > while you're waiting? Jim, from what you write after this statement it > sounds like you're definitely in the first category... How about everyone > else? I'm definitely in the first category. I crack the wrap. And you'll just love this one: Sometimes I buy a third so that I can cut up the manual. Yes, I cut all the pages out of the manual. This is so I can get the best possible scan of the manual pages for creating an archival quality PDF of them (the stuff on Underdogs is mostly crap). > >(!!!) Yes, I break original shrinkwrap so that I can > >release the game to the public domain if nobody else has. Why do you > >think the hardcore oldwarez community is so eager to get their hands on > >Chris' copy of Cyborg? Because it may very well be the last copy that > >exists, and we want to copy the disk before it goes bad and fades away. > > This raises an interesting dilemma, and the main reason I continually refuse > to open it: Suppose I did break the wrap, I went to copy the disk... and > it's already bad? The retrogamers are upset because they won't be able to > play it after all. I'm out my shrinkwrapped package with absolutely nothing > to show for it. But there's no way to tell that until I do crack it. > Classic "Schroedinger's Cat". I don't gamble with my collection. It's definitely a classic schroedinger's cat. There's just no way to know. And so we wait for another copy to turn up. > (I've dealt with my other reasons in Shoppe columns enough times that I > won't bore you reciting them again here.) What, you have other reasons? :-) I think the above is the best reason. I totally support you, BTW -- it just sucks for both of us. Somewhere, someday, another copy will turn up. We hope. > >Sadly for us -- and detailed in an old conversation that you can look at > >in the archives -- Chris and many other collectors place much less value > >on the diskette than the entire package. > > I've thought about this one for a long time, and yes, the software is > definitely worth less to me than the package. Why? Because the package is > PHYSICAL. Only a certain number of game packages were ever produced. Once > all the others have been lost or thrown out, that's it. Mine is the only > one left, and there will never be any more. But software does not exist in > any physical sense. One very last copy easily becomes 8 million copies. So > it's far easier to obtain and thus of far less value to someone who prizes > rarity. This is because you (and most collectors) value the package, whereas some people value the games themselves. I collect mostly for the games themselves -- I truly appreciate the work and effort that went into an older game, because the designers had a lot more hurdles to jump on such old hardware. This goes across all genres, including sports games (which I don't personally play but still collect out of respect). > >Me personally, if I crack open > >a rare game only to find that the disk is bad, the entire thing is > >nearly worthless for me. > > Exactly. So why take the chance? (BTW, if you ever open any rare adventure > games that turn out to have bad disks, I'll cut you a good deal on those > "nearly worthless" items. B-) Yes, you and the entire mailing list I'm sure :-) > The thing is (using Cyborg as an example), you CAN play it... provided > you're willing to expend a little extra effort and download an Apple II > emulator and the disk image. This exists on the web, I've seen it. The > problem I've run into is that there are so many picky-shit players out there > who absolutely MUST play the PC version, nothing else will do. "They don't > have pepperoni pizza, only sausage, so I guess I'll just go hungry." It's a > little hard to feel sorry for people like that. Agreed, but this isn't the reason I would like to see it copied; I like to compare different ports of games. I get a large amount of enjoyment of comparing and contrasting the following: - The original version of a game - The PC conversion (PC was powerful
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
>So I'm actually not surprised that anyone who "collects" >anything has a slight bit of a neurological disorder. It would explain a lot of odd, quirkish behavior. And I myself am mildly obsessive-compulsive in other areas of my life besides collecting. >I purchase 2 of everything: 1 to appreciate, and the other to crack the >shrinkwrap on. I'm this way with my Infocoms (you just have to be able to get at the props), but I've got to know: If you get a shrinked copy BEFORE you get an opened copy, do you personally (1) break the wrap first and risk not being able to appreciate another wrapped copy for a long long time, or (2) hang onto the wrapped copy until you find another wrapped copy or one that's already been opened, and take the chance that the disk media will go bad while you're waiting? Jim, from what you write after this statement it sounds like you're definitely in the first category... How about everyone else? >(!!!) Yes, I break original shrinkwrap so that I can >release the game to the public domain if nobody else has. Why do you >think the hardcore oldwarez community is so eager to get their hands on >Chris' copy of Cyborg? Because it may very well be the last copy that >exists, and we want to copy the disk before it goes bad and fades away. This raises an interesting dilemma, and the main reason I continually refuse to open it: Suppose I did break the wrap, I went to copy the disk... and it's already bad? The retrogamers are upset because they won't be able to play it after all. I'm out my shrinkwrapped package with absolutely nothing to show for it. But there's no way to tell that until I do crack it. Classic "Schroedinger's Cat". I don't gamble with my collection. (I've dealt with my other reasons in Shoppe columns enough times that I won't bore you reciting them again here.) >Sadly for us -- and detailed in an old conversation that you can look at >in the archives -- Chris and many other collectors place much less value >on the diskette than the entire package. I've thought about this one for a long time, and yes, the software is definitely worth less to me than the package. Why? Because the package is PHYSICAL. Only a certain number of game packages were ever produced. Once all the others have been lost or thrown out, that's it. Mine is the only one left, and there will never be any more. But software does not exist in any physical sense. One very last copy easily becomes 8 million copies. So it's far easier to obtain and thus of far less value to someone who prizes rarity. >Me personally, if I crack open >a rare game only to find that the disk is bad, the entire thing is >nearly worthless for me. Exactly. So why take the chance? (BTW, if you ever open any rare adventure games that turn out to have bad disks, I'll cut you a good deal on those "nearly worthless" items. B-) >What good is a game that you CAN'T PLAY? :-) Like you said, for admiring. (Otherwise why keep shrinkwraps at all?) And it's an excellent catalyst for long theoretical discussions like this one. B-) The thing is (using Cyborg as an example), you CAN play it... provided you're willing to expend a little extra effort and download an Apple II emulator and the disk image. This exists on the web, I've seen it. The problem I've run into is that there are so many picky-shit players out there who absolutely MUST play the PC version, nothing else will do. "They don't have pepperoni pizza, only sausage, so I guess I'll just go hungry." It's a little hard to feel sorry for people like that. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
"C.E. Forman" wrote: > > > Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. Unless you're > > grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more > > than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? > > I know of one (Infocom) collector in Germany who collects one version of > each game for each platform it was released on. That's cool, because they're different. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
> Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. Unless you're > grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more > than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? I know of one (Infocom) collector in Germany who collects one version of each game for each platform it was released on. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Plus every Moonstone in Ultima VI is a little bit different. Thus you're getting a unique item with each copy you obtain! B-) - Original Message - From: Hugh Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:47 AM Subject: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors > Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima > IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say > that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond > recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of > all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! Pedro is trying to corner the > market! :-) > > As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In > Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). > > > Hugh > > -Original Message- > From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:30 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors > > > Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > > > I thought of "habyt", "hobit", but ended up with "hobbyt", how does it > > sound? > > Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. Unless you're > grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more > than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? > > -- > This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to > the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' > Archives are available at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ > > > -- > This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to > the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' > Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ > > -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > Hugh Falk wrote, > >Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima > >IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say > >that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond > >recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of > >all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! > > If someone tried to sell you 20 Suspended with the masks, for $1 a piece, > wouldn't you buy them all? =) Yes, but of course that is a rare theoretical case that would probably never happen. > E huh h... I'll stick to "habbyt" I think. I like OCCID myself. As in, "I'm an OCCID." -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > Jim Leonard wrote: > >Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > > > I thought of "habyt", "hobit", but ended up with "hobbyt", how does it > > sound? > > >Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. > > You have just stated that about 50% of game collectors in the world, and > including reknown ones like Jason P. Cobb suffer from a mental disorder. > Bravo! You have superseeded yourself. I myself am slightly that, as I am slightly ADD (attention deficit disorder). So is my wife, and we bore two children: one is autistic, and the other has apraxia (speech delay, but thankfully nothing else). My father is one of the world's most renouned Numismatists (coin collector). So I'm actually not surprised that anyone who "collects" anything has a slight bit of a neurological disorder. At least, that's the excuse I give my wife when I bid on a Cyborg for $250 ;-) > >Unless you're > >grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more > >than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? > > If you ask questions like the one above, it makes me wonder, do you > _really_ collect games? Of course! I own over 600. But my motiviations are different than yours (and most collectors). I'll explain my motivations later in this email. > OK, here's the short answer: > > a) When they're different versions b) when they are sold in a bundle in > which I wanted some other thing from it c) When it's sold really really > really cheap. All valid reasons. But when you wrote 4th or 5th, you were implying that you were grabbing 4 or 5 of the same thing, hence my question. I purchase 2 of everything: 1 to appreciate, and the other to crack the shrinkwrap on. (!!!) Yes, I break original shrinkwrap so that I can release the game to the public domain if nobody else has. Why do you think the hardcore oldwarez community is so eager to get their hands on Chris' copy of Cyborg? Because it may very well be the last copy that exists, and we want to copy the disk before it goes bad and fades away. Even Michael Berlyn doesn't have a copy of his own code any more. Sadly for us -- and detailed in an old conversation that you can look at in the archives -- Chris and many other collectors place much less value on the diskette than the entire package. Me personally, if I crack open a rare game only to find that the disk is bad, the entire thing is nearly worthless for me. What good is a game that you CAN'T PLAY? :-) Along similar lines, I like to perform "restoration" on old games: If the original disk is bad, I can replace it exactly with a (protected) copy of itself from my archives, a bit-for-bit exact copy with even the protection intact. I also throw in a 5.25" and 3.5" disk of an unprotected copy into the package "just in case". -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima > IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say > that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond > recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of > all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! Pedro is trying to corner the > market! :-) > > As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In > Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). Why complete it? I have no problem referring to Pedro as an OCCID. ;-D -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Absolutely I would buy them all! However, I would likely use 90% of them as trade material to get other games I wanted. But that would be the only reason I buy something I already own...because I can get something else I want...eventually. Hugh -Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote, >Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima >IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say >that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond >recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of >all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! If someone tried to sell you 20 Suspended with the masks, for $1 a piece, wouldn't you buy them all? =) >Pedro is trying to corner the market! :-) Nah, it's the other way around: the market is trying to corner me into buying more! ;) >As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In >Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). E huh h... I'll stick to "habbyt" I think. >Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote, >Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima >IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say >that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond >recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of >all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! If someone tried to sell you 20 Suspended with the masks, for $1 a piece, wouldn't you buy them all? =) >Pedro is trying to corner the market! :-) Nah, it's the other way around: the market is trying to corner me into buying more! ;) >As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In >Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). E huh h... I'll stick to "habbyt" I think. >Hugh Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote: >Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > I thought of "habyt", "hobit", but ended up with "hobbyt", how does it > sound? >Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. You have just stated that about 50% of game collectors in the world, and including reknown ones like Jason P. Cobb suffer from a mental disorder. Bravo! You have superseeded yourself. >Unless you're >grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more >than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? If you ask questions like the one above, it makes me wonder, do you _really_ collect games? OK, here's the short answer: a) When they're different versions b) when they are sold in a bundle in which I wanted some other thing from it c) When it's sold really really really cheap. Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Well, there is one other valid reason. Let's say that only 100,000 Ultima IV's where ever produced (for the sake of a round number). And let's say that half of those have been thrown away, lost or otherwise damaged beyond recognition. That means that if you own 5 of them, then you own .0001% of all the Ultima IV's left in the world!!! Pedro is trying to corner the market! :-) As for a name, I like OCCIDENTAL -- Obsessive Compulsive Collectors In Denial ENTAL (You can figure out what the other letter stand for). Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:30 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > I thought of "habyt", "hobit", but ended up with "hobbyt", how does it > sound? Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. Unless you're grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > I thought of "habyt", "hobit", but ended up with "hobbyt", how does it > sound? Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder seems to fit the bill more. Unless you're grabbing them to resell or trade, or for parts, why would you want more than 2 (1 to appreciate, the other as a backup) of the same product? -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
>I think it's too Tolkeinesque. My company is looking into a game based on >the Lord of the Rings...believe it or not, the caretakers of the Tolken >estate would probably slap you with a cease and desist if this ever became >"official!" Sad but true!:-) > >Hugh But in this case the name has absolutely nothing to do with Hobbits. Nevertheless, would you please suggest a different one? Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
I think it's too Tolkeinesque. My company is looking into a game based on the Lord of the Rings...believe it or not, the caretakers of the Tolken estate would probably slap you with a cease and desist if this ever became "official!" Sad but true!:-) Hugh -Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 8:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hello again, Something recently occurred to me, about collectors likes us (at least I fall under the following category): I collect RPGs as a hobby (nothing new here), the same way others collect adventures, Infocom games, EA flats, etc. Right? Right. But some of us know that it isn't just a hobby. Sometimes we just _have to_ bid on that "Ultima IV", even if it'll be the 5th we own. For a reason unknown to all but us. And even after the auction ends, there's _another_ one right there, calling our name... so I'm guessing this "hobby" could be called a "habit" too. The purpose of this mail is to propose to you a new word that describes those "compulsive" collectors like myself (and possibly some of you) that mixes both of the above. I thought of "habyt", "hobit", but ended up with "hobbyt", how does it sound? Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
[SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hello again, Something recently occurred to me, about collectors likes us (at least I fall under the following category): I collect RPGs as a hobby (nothing new here), the same way others collect adventures, Infocom games, EA flats, etc. Right? Right. But some of us know that it isn't just a hobby. Sometimes we just _have to_ bid on that "Ultima IV", even if it'll be the 5th we own. For a reason unknown to all but us. And even after the auction ends, there's _another_ one right there, calling our name... so I'm guessing this "hobby" could be called a "habit" too. The purpose of this mail is to propose to you a new word that describes those "compulsive" collectors like myself (and possibly some of you) that mixes both of the above. I thought of "habyt", "hobit", but ended up with "hobbyt", how does it sound? Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
