Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Volker Schmidt
Paul,

according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples are
malls, the third one would not be a mall.

Volker

On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 I'm thinking this is a shopping mall
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Eaton_Centre_HDR_style.jpg,
 and this is a shopping center
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Strip_Mall_Troy.jpg.
 Not to be confused with a mall http://i.imgur.com/MDVBYKF.jpg.

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen 
 i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:

 Dear all,

 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).

 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?

 -- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread johnw
Isn't shopping centre a collection of disparate stores grouped together for 
connivence (same parking lot), whereas a mall is a singular large (or several 
large) buildings full of little shops, primarily accessed by a pedestrian 
Thoroughfare in the center? 

To me the defining characteristic is pedestrian centric shopping or not. Both 
can be named places (separate from the shops), but only the mall is some place 
where you get out and enter the mall and walk around to see the shops, 
whereas the shopping centre presents it's choices (and access) from the 
street/parking lot - similar but bigger than a stripmall. The collection of 
two or three big box stores and a few smaller stores is in no way a mall - but 
it often is a named place.  These dominate the arterial roads in California.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=la%20mesa%20ca#map=16/32.7773/-117.0096

There is Grossmont Center, a large mall on the north side of the freeway. The 
large (outdoor, in this case) pedestrian concourse in the centre where you walk 
to visit the stores makes it a mall. On the south side of the freeway, there 
are 3 (formerly 5) bigbox stores just plopped next to the road, all sharing the 
same parking amenity and lessor ( 8800 Grossmont Blvd, as the street number 
itself is the sign). To the north of the mall between fletcher parkway and the 
train line,  there is a collection of shops primarily accessed by cars. Named 
Grossmont Trolley Center.  There is a smaller, yet still distinctly named 
collection of stores on the frontage road on the other side of Parkway Plaza 
(still further north), all the shops accessed by the parking lot - Grossmont 
Center North - which again is a single place - but a shopping centre (to me). 
I put a simple point tag on them so it is easy to find on OSM.  These smaller, 
local Shopping Centres are in no way, shape or form a mall - but they are not 
just stores along a street. To me, that defines a Shopping centre.

A LOT of these are untagged - Probably many times more than malls currently 
tagged. These are properly named collections of shops togehter that are not a 
mall - and shouldn't be labeled as a mall (which draw people from far away, vs 
the shopping centre which does not). I can name all of the malls in San Diego 
on one hand, but there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of these shopping 
centres just in San Deigo - and their names are known only to the locals of the 
area.  It's easy to tag the malls, because most everyone of the 2-3 million 
people know of the 10 or so malls we have, but very few of those people know of 
these smaller shopping centres - so they remain untagged. Same goes for my 
local area in Japan, but there are MUCH less named shopping centres here than 
in San Diego. Maybe that is why there is such a big discrepancy in their 
tagging numbers - it might be a modern suburban thing that is not reflected 
well in the tagging that has been competed so far. 

Baybe I'm confused or unaware of other tags, but that is how I see the 
difference. 

On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:00 AM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:

 Dear all,
 
 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).
 
 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?
 
 -- Matthijs
 
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread johnw
The second is in no way, shape or form, a mall, in the modern usage of Mall' 
to define a shopping plaza destination.  The word mall can also define a 
pedestrian walkway with shops, But the singular noun of Mall - meaning a 
large pedestrian centric shopping plaza - is very different than 5 shops 
sharing a parking lot. 

check the reply I was just writing. 

if there currently is no discerning Paul's example #1 and #2, then we need to 
change the mall tag ASAP. Because that is totally mislabeling the stripmall / 
shopping_centre in example #2 - and really diluting the meaning of mall as it 
is commonly used in California and Japan.

javbw


On Oct 21, 2014, at 4:00 PM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Paul,
 
 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples are 
 malls, the third one would not be a mall.
 
 Volker
 
 On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 I'm thinking this is a shopping mall, and this is a shopping center.  Not to 
 be confused with a mall.
 
 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl 
 wrote:
 Dear all,
 
 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).
 
 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?
 
 -- Matthijs
 
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Re: [Tagging] sport= non-physical tags and the exceptions people come up with...

2014-10-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-10-21 2:04 GMT+02:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com:

 +1 for leisure=scuba_diving_attraction or better yet, leisure=divespot and
 define the attraction or divespot further with subkeys





I prefer leisure=divespot or dive_spot (?) or leisure=dive_site
This could still be coupled with tourism=attraction for relevant cases to
transport the attraction meaning.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=stationery, shop=office_supplies

2014-10-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-10-21 2:12 GMT+02:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com:

 I don't think there's much difference in reality as both sell paper, pens,
 ink and etc. However, the newer office supply places like Staples and
 Office Max are superstores that sell desks, computers, and other office
 furniture as well. When I think of stationary shops I think of smaller,
 more intimate spaces.




+1, I'd also see it this way, a stationary won't sell office furniture or
computers (would be more specialized in paper, card board, glue, pens,
...), while office supply stores would sell office furniture as well.
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=stationery, shop=office_supplies

2014-10-21 Thread SomeoneElse

On 21/10/2014 05:24, Toby Murray wrote:
... I considered Staples to be different enough to deserve a different 
tag. I am not convinced that I am right... just stating at how I 
arrived at my tagging decision.





... that was pretty much my thought process with shop=office_supplies too.

I'd be happy to reconsider, but it'd be nice to still have a way of 
telling the two apart by some form of sub-tag.


OSM's big strength is people on the ground able to classify things that 
don't fit neatly into categories, and which may not make any sense to 
someone looking at the data from elsewhere.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (brickkiln)

2014-10-21 Thread Megha Shrestha
We are not about to import any dataset instead we will manually upload the
data to osm.

Cheers,
Megha

On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 3:00 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:


 2014-10-19 7:10 GMT+02:00 Megha Shrestha meghashrest...@gmail.com:

 Thank you for the suggestion. These are the details that are already
 available to us and I think they can be huge help if made open which is the
 reason for me to suggest this tag. I have gone through your suggestions and
 will make the required edits. Use of existing tag can be a help. I will add
 the additional information you said will be relevant to the proposal page.
 There is no such community that keeps these data updated but we are the
 representatives of OSM in Nepal and we are trying to get data updated
 regularly in OSM and this is also a part of our project.



 As you are probably going to import data into OSM you should be aware that
 there are guidelines which you are required to follow, which contain
 besides other things the requirement of writing to the import mailing list
 and documenting everything in the wiki:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines

 cheers,
 Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (brickkiln)

2014-10-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-10-21 10:27 GMT+02:00 Megha Shrestha meghashrest...@gmail.com:

 We are not about to import any dataset instead we will manually upload the
 data to osm.



how did you collect the data, e.g. about landownership, the numbers of male
and female workers, etc.?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] cleanup of the key natural

2014-10-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-10-20 19:13 GMT+02:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at:


 Most known caves are dry. I know because I have been in thousands of them.



being dry doesn't mean they are not water-related. beaches also often are
dry.




   please don't take wikipedia as
 your one and only reference.



I don't, but it is the easiest to quote.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (brickkiln)

2014-10-21 Thread Megha Shrestha
We collected the data from field survey.

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 1:39 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:


 2014-10-21 10:27 GMT+02:00 Megha Shrestha meghashrest...@gmail.com:

 We are not about to import any dataset instead we will manually upload
 the data to osm.



 how did you collect the data, e.g. about landownership, the numbers of
 male and female workers, etc.?

 Cheers,
 Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Paul Johnson
The third is functionally an esplanade (far, far more people walk it than
drive it), and it's official name is the Portland Mall.  Originally it only
had bus lanes on it, but Portland being too cheap to install bus traps and
not exactly having the most rigorous enforcement decided to add a third
lane about six years ago for through and left turning cars as well to
prevent interfering with transit service.

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Paul,

 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples
 are malls, the third one would not be a mall.

 Volker

 On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 I'm thinking this is a shopping mall
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Eaton_Centre_HDR_style.jpg,
 and this is a shopping center
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Strip_Mall_Troy.jpg.
 Not to be confused with a mall http://i.imgur.com/MDVBYKF.jpg.

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen 
 i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:

 Dear all,

 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).

 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?

 -- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Brad Neuhauser
I agree with Matthjis--I don't see much of a clearly defined and widely
agreed on difference between the two. Given that, and the small usage of
shopping_centre, I agree with should deprecate shopping_centre.

Cheers, Brad

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 4:43 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 The third is functionally an esplanade (far, far more people walk it than
 drive it), and it's official name is the Portland Mall.  Originally it only
 had bus lanes on it, but Portland being too cheap to install bus traps and
 not exactly having the most rigorous enforcement decided to add a third
 lane about six years ago for through and left turning cars as well to
 prevent interfering with transit service.

 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Paul,

 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples
 are malls, the third one would not be a mall.

 Volker

 On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 I'm thinking this is a shopping mall
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Eaton_Centre_HDR_style.jpg,
 and this is a shopping center
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Strip_Mall_Troy.jpg.
 Not to be confused with a mall http://i.imgur.com/MDVBYKF.jpg.

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen 
 i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:

 Dear all,

 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).

 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?

 -- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a
closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity.
They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and
collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have
restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't
have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective
parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - cycleway=soft_lane

2014-10-21 Thread Hubert
Hallo,

 

I would like to extend the voting period on my proposal, since it only has 9
votes at the moment. How much more time should I give it. 1 Week? 2 Weeks?

Also, please leave your vote and/or comment on the discussion page if you
like.

 

Best regards

Hubert

 

From: Hubert [mailto:sg.fo...@gmx.de] 
Sent: Freitag, 12. September 2014 12:21
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - cycleway=soft_lane

 

Hallo together. 

 

I would like to ask for any comments and opinions to this proposal
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Soft_lane. 

 

Thank you for your time and

Best Regards

Hubert

 

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=stationery, shop=office_supplies

2014-10-21 Thread Philip Barnes
On Mon, 2014-10-20 at 23:24 -0500, Toby Murray wrote:
 I know I have used office_supply for Staples. When I looked it up in
 the wiki, the stationery page did not include the examples of the
 office superstores and my impression was that it was intended for
 smaller shops, including the Hallmark shops that John mentions. I
 considered Staples to be different enough to deserve a different tag.
 I am not convinced that I am right... just stating at how I arrived at
 my tagging decision.

I would normally tag staples as office_supplies, but would be wary of
changing those tagged as stationary without a survey. It is possible
that they could have smaller stationary shops in places such as
university campuses.

Phil (trigpoint)
 
 
 Toby
 
 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 10:37 PM, John F. Eldredge
 j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:
 I haven't noticed one for several years, but there used to be
 stores that specialized in selling greeting cards and small
 ornamental gifts. Hallmark greeting cards had a retail chain.
 
 
 
 On October 20, 2014 7:34:19 PM CDT, Paul Johnson
 ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 When I think of a stationery shop, I think of
 something like a FedEx Office minus the copiers and
 shipping.  When I think of an office supply store, I
 think of something like Office Depot, Office Max or
 Staples, which also sell office furniture, computers,
 adding machines, filing cabinets, etc.
 
 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen
 i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:
 Dear all,
 
 We have currently two tags with a closely
 related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=stationery (8038 instances) and
 shop=office_supplies
 (177 instances).
 
 Is there a difference between these two tags,
 or should we deprecate
 shop=office_supplies in favour of
 shop=stationery?
 
 For example, Staples, a large multinational
 stationery/office supplies
 shop is tagged 380 times as shop=stationery
 and 48 times as
 shop=office_supplies.
 
 -- Matthijs
 
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=stationery, shop=office_supplies

2014-10-21 Thread Philip Barnes
On Mon, 2014-10-20 at 22:37 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote:
 I haven't noticed one for several years, but there used to be stores
 that specialized in selling greeting cards and small ornamental gifts.
 Hallmark greeting cards had a retail chain.
 
There are lots of these around, I have not noticed them going anywhere. 

They are certainly not stationary, although tagging does vary. Most seem
to fall under shop=gift, maybe with gift=cards. Shop=cards has 47 uses.

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread johnw



On Oct 21, 2014, at 8:21 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 
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 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a 
 closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity.

Pedestrian centric promenade surrounded by shops is a mall.  car parking 
centric access, with shops adjacent to parking is a Shopping Centre.

 They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and 
 collective facilities like toilets and parking.

Shopping centres almost never have any shared amenities at all. The shops 
themselves provide everything inside, especially toilets. 
The Shopping Centre's defining feature is shared parking with adjacent shops.  
Every example I used before and will use next has no public toilets whatsoever.

 Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a 
 shopping center doesn't have to (but could have).

A shopping centre may have a lot of fast food, but it will never be or have a 
food court (at least in the US and Japan).  There are no drive-through food 
courts. I can't park my car in front of the individual shops in a food court. 

A mall has a designated, self-contained section full of various fast food with 
shared seating and amenities for the pedestrian visitors to the mall. 

  I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall 
 but they might constitute a shopping center.

Yep. 

Shopping Centres can be big - it's all about car centric access to each 
individual shop. 

https://goo.gl/maps/O0BXI - roadside shopping centre
https://goo.gl/maps/3b98e  - two shopping centres near a freeway exit. 
https://goo.gl/maps/cVLrw - a really large shopping centre

But Malls are massive - and most shops are accessed only through the center of 
the mall, by walking the center. 

https://goo.gl/maps/n0RqP   a single mall surrounded by 8 or 9 shopping_centres.

Everyone in San Deigo knows of that mall. Not everyone could name the stores or 
the shopping centres around it. Which is why we tag malls separately. 

https://goo.gl/maps/ofSO5 The Big Hanyu Aeon mall in Japan - surrounded by 
houses and rice fields. 

It has more shops than all 9 of the shopping centres in the above example put 
together - almost all accessed only from inside the mall. 
That is a Mall. 

That 6 shops in a row used as example #2  example in a earlier post isn't a 
mall whatsoever. 




- usually a shopping_centre rarely has _any_  shared amenities besides 
parking/access
- a mall would have shared facilities - bathrooms, security, 
lost  found, package wrapping services, and other shopper-centric services. 

Shopping_centres would usually have a shared front only, adjacent to parking 
(usually ringing it).
-  a Mall has a pedestrian exclusive area (indoor or outdoor)  
surrounded by shops, completely separated from all other forms of access (no 
cars). 

Shopping_centres (almost) never have shared access between a individual stores 
- you always have to leave one store, returning to the shared footway to access 
the next.
  - a Mall has shared entrances between large anchor stores 
(entering a dept store and exiting into the center of the mall, for example) 

Shopping_centres have no designated areas beyond the stores.
- A mall has food courts, shared seating and meeting areas, 
stages, event areas. some even have attractions like a theme park (carousel, 
other kids rides)

Shopping centres are usually all 1 story (but can be very wide) Occaisionally 
there is a second floor (or mixed use commerical/residential, which is hard to 
tag right now) and only basic foot access - It's almost all car centric, or 
adjacent to some other source of existing traffic (station, university)
- A mall is primarily pedestrian based access to a majority of 
the shops, and often contain multilevel promenades, with elevators, escalators, 
and bridges connecting everything, either indoors or outdoors. 


OSM is missing tens of thousands of shopping_centres

Javbw



 elaborate systems of walkways and escalators connecting the pedestrian access 
to the other stores.  
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Bryan Housel
Your description of a mall as an enclosed place makes sense to me, but where I 
live they seem to call anything a “mall”.

Here is the Watchung Square Mall”: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838
and the “Valley Mall”:  http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041
(both of those are really shopping centers, not malls)

Anyway, I avoid the `shop=mall` and `shop=shopping_centre` completely.  I 
usually tag `landuse=retail` for the area and `building=retail` for the 
buildings.

IMO, `shop=*` should really just be for a single shop.




 On Oct 21, 2014, at 7:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a 
 closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. 
 They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and 
 collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have 
 restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have 
 to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective parking 
 won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center.
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread John Willis


 On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:54 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote:
 
 Your description of a mall as an enclosed place makes sense to me, but where 
 I live they seem to call anything a “mall”.
 
 Here is the Watchung Square Mall”: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838
 and the “Valley Mall”:  http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041
 (both of those are really shopping centers, not malls)

Yea. I tagged the local shopping centre here as a mall, because it has mall in 
the title . But I will be changing that. 
 
 Anyway, I avoid the `shop=mall` and `shop=shopping_centre` completely.  I 
 usually tag `landuse=retail` for the area and `building=retail` for the 
 buildings.

Me too, until realizing we have both these these tags. I love landuse=*so much. 
 
 IMO, `shop=*` should really just be for a single shop.

Yea - the mall seems more like retail=* sub tag stuff,if one exists. 

Javbw. 
 
 
 
 
 On Oct 21, 2014, at 7:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a 
 closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. 
 They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and 
 collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have 
 restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't 
 have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective 
 parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center.
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Jerry Clough - OSM
A few points:

* OSM standard is British English. Shopping Centre is standard British 
English for an enclosed pedestrian space with lots of shops. Historically these 
have been covered, but this is changing to a simulated street environment (in 
UK Liverpool One the Arc at Bury St Edmunds are recent examples.
* Use of the shop tag is inherently problematic. These are not shops 
but retail areas. At the moment whenever I do any kind of retail analytical 
query I have to do AND NOT IN (shop='mall'). I would prefer to use 
landuse=retail with retail=mall or retail=shopping centre etc. We certainly 
don't tag a centre of a village with a few shops as shop=village_centre.
* shop=mall is more widely used, and although predominantly US English 
is not likely to be a confusion which shopping centre obviously is from prior 
posts here. Some of the examples cited would be usually called Retail Park 
for what I think is typically called a strip mall in the US, and Shopping 
Precinct for a smaller pedestrian area, often with only minor weather 
protection for shoppers. The latter are dying on their feet in the UK as they 
cant compete with the Retail Park or have a poor selection of shops.
* I attempted to provide a fairly detailed typology of these various 
types of retail area in a blog post last summer (hopefully with some useful 
illustrations). However I think this could be expanded substantially especially 
with more examples from different countries. See also the typology used by a 
specialist Retail GIS Analytics company which features at the start of the 
blog. Some (largely those featuring the word Parade) may be very UK specific, 
but most are suitably general. There are also a couple of slides relating to 
the issue in my SotM-Baltics presentation (#10 in particular).
* I noticed whilst attending SotM-Baltics last summer that true 
shopping centres/malls are very common in the main towns in Latvia and Estonia. 
Presumably they are a favoured way of adding new retail premises. Unfortunately 
many of these have 3 or more shopping floors and are even harder to map than 2 
storey malls.
* The two main shopping centres in Nottingham have had all the retail 
outlets mapped. There are many issues as to the best way to map shopping 
centres/malls but it is clear that if one wants to be accurate about the 
provision of shops in a town it is essential that this is done. They are also 
difficult to map because most establishments are access=customers and do not 
allow photography. 
* I mapped an area E of Pittsburgh, PA which has a nice variety of 
different kinds of out-of-town retail areas (a mall, Monroeville Mall, several 
strip malls, smaller areas, numerous car dealers). Unfortunately we don't have 
active mappers in the area. If anyone can identify a similar location in the US 
where there are active mappers and useful pictures this would really help sort 
out the kind of typology we need.
I did start drafting a blog post on this very issue mentioning many of the 
points above, so it's probably time to finish it.

Cheers,

Jerry

 
  
 
 
 
 
 
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On Tuesday, 21 October 2014, 12:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
  


To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a 
closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. 
They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and 
collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have 
restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have 
to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't 
qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center.


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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread ael
 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a
 closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity.
 They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and
 collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have
 restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't
 have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective
 parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center.

Just a small interjection from a native British speaker. Shopping_centre
is the normal term. mall is rarely encountered.

That said, I appreciate the distinction in question, and not sure that I
have much constructive to say. But I do agree that shop= seems like the
wrong tag for an area or a building containing multiple shops. as
another post said, landuse=retail (or building=retail?) is surely far better.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-10-21 15:39 GMT+02:00 Jerry Clough - OSM sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk:


- Use of the shop tag is inherently problematic. These are not shops
but retail areas. At the moment whenever I do any kind of retail analytical
query I have to do AND NOT IN (shop='mall'). I would prefer to use
landuse=retail with retail=mall or retail=shopping centre etc. We certainly
don't tag a centre of a village with a few shops as shop=village_centre.



The centre of a village is much more than just shops, but that's another
discussion ;-)

I agree with you that shop=shopping_centre or mall is not a good tag,
unlike shop=department_store or supermarket, these are indeed entities
consisting of several shops. On the other hand, landuse doesn't seem a nice
tag to me neither, as it is about the use of land, an attribute. Yes,
landuse=retail and retail=mall will indicate that this land is used for a
mall, but I'd consider this an indirect way of stating: there must be some
shopping mall over there, rather than explicitly naming the feature (e.g.
amenity=shopping_centre would be a candidate), and I could also imagine
situations where several landuse objects together form one shopping mall or
centre (because they are interrupted in the middle by something else).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Doerr

On 21/10/2014 12:06, Brad Neuhauser wrote:
I agree with Matthjis--I don't see much of a clearly defined and 
widely agreed on difference between the two. Given that, and the small 
usage of shopping_centre, I agree with should deprecate shopping_centre.




Just chipping in to say that 'mall' is still considered a foreign word 
in Britain. The OED defines it thus:


'Chiefly N. Amer., Austral., and N.Z. A shopping precinct or street 
closed to vehicles; a large (usually covered) shopping centre'.


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Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Truckage company

2014-10-21 Thread Jerry Clough - OSM
As Dudley said, Haulage contractor is standard British-English for firms (and 
individuals) who own and operate Heavy Goods Vehicles (over 3.5 t IIRC) to 
transport a whole range of loads. As others have said logistics is about the 
whole chain of processes rather than specifically individual movements.

A more generic term might be road freight.

Jerry 


On Thursday, 9 October 2014, 23:35, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote:
  





Distribution logistics is the *planning* of moving goods from a factory to the 
customer - the post office isn't a logistics company. Fedex or UPS, wich will 
pick up, store, warehouse, and ship another company's goods as they request 
them to be shipped to the customer for them is a Distribution Logistics 
company. - they plan it (to guarantee delivery) and move it all too.   


It seems that Haulage is like for ore transport or bulk goods - not something 
you'd do with a truck on the highway. 


I think it is something commonly described as a logistics company. 


Courrier just delivers a package for a to b for a fee, like a local or 
regional delivery company. 


maybe 
commercial=logistics 


logistics=Distribution
logistics=Courrier
logistics=Trucking  to pick up the remainder, as there are a myriad of special 
delivery places - piano movers, livestock delivery, boat movers,  for example. 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_driver#Job_categories


missed a couple:


logistics would also cover the intermodal companies - moving shipping 
containers from boat to train to truck, as well as moving companies (people who 
move your house contents to another house) and storage/delivery companies. 

logistics=yard   [for freight yards]
logistics=warehouse [for the gigantic warehouses they use]
logistics=intermodal
logistics= movers


Javbw

Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] RFC Tagging for complex junctions

2014-10-21 Thread fly
Am 18.10.2014 08:45, schrieb Lukas Sommer:
 Hello.
 
 The combined proposal for complex junctions and complex traffic signal
 systems had less support than I hoped (5 of 9 votes).
 
 Initially, I was thinking it was a good idea to treat these two features
 together. However, this was obviously not a good idea. It made the
 discussion harder. These two subjects seem to be to different to be
 treated together. So it seems to be better to split this into two
 different proposals: one for complex junctions and one for complex
 traffic signals.
 
 Today I start RFC for the complex junction tagging. A new proposal page
 has been created at
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tagging_for_complex_junctions
 which takes into account the comments which have been made during the
 previous voting.

Please have a look at the proposal for highway=junction [1]. It
describes the same but with a different tag and the two proposal should
be merged.

Cheers fly

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/highway=junction


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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-21 Thread Pee Wee
Well... here's my experience with user Ulamm. He sure has taken away part
of the fun it was contributing to this project.

I've noticed he made some changes to the use_sidepath
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath wiki. I
asked him in a private mail for the reason of the changes since they did
not make sense to me nor was I aware of some proposal or a discussion on
the tagging mailinglist. His changes were reverted by Mateusz but Ulamm
changed the wiki almost instantly. Ulamm could not (and still can not) give
me any reference to a discussion or whatever that would justify the changes
he made. In the private mail it was very clear to me that Ulamm wanted to
discuss with me why his change was good for OSM. I instead wanted to make
clear to him that he should get consensus first and after that change the
wiki.
For this reason I decided to continue on the TALK page instead of private
mail.  You can read that in  Talk
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathpage
from bicycle=yes everywhere

Apart from that fact that there is no consensus on the change he made I
also pointed him to the wiki page on tag for routing/Access restrictions
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions
with which his change conflicts.  He now states that it does not conflict
because those the road types under discussion are excluded from this wiki.
That was new to me so I was surprised. I found out that this wiki was also
changed by Ulamm by adding a paragraph by the name of Special feature:
Roadside cycletracks.  So Ulamm seems to change one wiki and justifies
with another wiki he has just changed.

My impression is that he does not want to reach consensus but just changes
wiki pages to his liking. IMHO this is a very bad development undermining
the wiki pages and the way we should should reach agreement in OSM.

I am wondering what your opinion is on this.

Cheers PeeWee32

PS :
History on use_sidepath wiki
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathaction=history
History Access page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictionsaction=history





2014-10-04 20:04 GMT+02:00 715371 osmu715...@gmx.de:

 Hi,

 I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
 osm-db, but also on the wiki.


 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccessdiff=1076542oldid=1076413

 He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
 far as I know.

 Now he is claiming this in discussions.

 Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
 his proposal was right.

 You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and [5].

 Please bann him.

 Cheers,
 Tobias

 [1]

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclewaydiff=1078542oldid=1056509
 [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
 [3]
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track
 [4]

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_Deutschland
 [5]
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren

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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-21 Thread fly
+10

It is frustrating and I only rarely change the wiki.

I always try to be polite and get into contact but only once. If there
is no real reaction and only more pages are changed or directly changed
after the revert, I would revert them all immediately as it is a problem
if wrong/undiscussed changes are spread.

cu fly

Am 21.10.2014 18:36, schrieb Pee Wee:
 Well... here's my experience with user Ulamm. He sure has taken away
 part of the fun it was contributing to this project.
 
 I've noticed he made some changes to the use_sidepath
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath wiki. I
 asked him in a private mail for the reason of the changes since they did
 not make sense to me nor was I aware of some proposal or a discussion on
 the tagging mailinglist. His changes were reverted by Mateusz but Ulamm
 changed the wiki almost instantly. Ulamm could not (and still can not)
 give me any reference to a discussion or whatever that would justify the
 changes he made. In the private mail it was very clear to me that Ulamm
 wanted to discuss with me why his change was good for OSM. I instead
 wanted to make clear to him that he should get consensus first and after
 that change the wiki.
 For this reason I decided to continue on the TALK page instead of
 private mail.  You can read that in  Talk
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathpage
 from bicycle=yes everywhere
 
 Apart from that fact that there is no consensus on the change he made I
 also pointed him to the wiki page on tag for routing/Access
 restrictions
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions
 with which his change conflicts.  He now states that it does not
 conflict because those the road types under discussion are excluded from
 this wiki.  That was new to me so I was surprised. I found out that this
 wiki was also changed by Ulamm by adding a paragraph by the name of
 Special feature: Roadside cycletracks.  So Ulamm seems to change one
 wiki and justifies  with another wiki he has just changed.
 
 My impression is that he does not want to reach consensus but just
 changes wiki pages to his liking. IMHO this is a very bad development
 undermining the wiki pages and the way we should should reach agreement
 in OSM.
 
 I am wondering what your opinion is on this.
 
 Cheers PeeWee32
 
 PS :
 History on use_sidepath wiki
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathaction=history
 History Access page
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictionsaction=history
 
 
 
 
 
 2014-10-04 20:04 GMT+02:00 715371 osmu715...@gmx.de
 mailto:osmu715...@gmx.de:
 
 Hi,
 
 I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
 osm-db, but also on the wiki.
 
 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccessdiff=1076542oldid=1076413
 
 He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
 far as I know.
 
 Now he is claiming this in discussions.
 
 Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
 his proposal was right.
 
 You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and
 [5].
 
 Please bann him.
 
 Cheers,
 Tobias
 
 [1]
 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclewaydiff=1078542oldid=1056509
 [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
 [3]
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track
 [4]
 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_Deutschland
 [5]
 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (brickkiln)

2014-10-21 Thread Philip Barnes
On Tue, 2014-10-21 at 02:21 -0700, Megha Shrestha wrote:
 We collected the data from field survey.

By field survey what do you mean?

You can obviously collect data from what you can see, from signs. 

But my concern is much of this information could be seen as commercially
sensitive, where does this information come from? 
Have you the necessary permissions to use that information? 
Was the person giving it authorised to do so?
Did the person giving it understand how you intend to use the
information?

Phil (trigpoint)


 
 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 1:39 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 2014-10-21 10:27 GMT+02:00 Megha Shrestha
 meghashrest...@gmail.com:
 We are not about to import any dataset instead we will
 manually upload the data to osm.
 
 
 
 how did you collect the data, e.g. about landownership, the
 numbers of male and female workers, etc.?
 
 
 Cheers,
 Martin
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-10-21 18:52 GMT+02:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com:

 it is a problem
 if wrong/undiscussed changes are spread.



while I agree, I'd like to point out that this is not an isolated problem
with a single user, it is systematically happening all the time. I believe
that the overwhelming majority (if not all) of the wiki edits are done in
good faith and with the intent to improve the documentation*, but despite
this, many tags slowly move in their meaning (or better, the definition in
the wiki slowly changes, the tagged objects in the db typically don't
adjust automagically). Often these changes are not happening by changing
what is already written but by amending the definition or restricting the
suggested use case (e.g. but if A or C and not D then you should not use
this tag but tag B or this tag can also be used for E). Sometimes
changes are justified with differing tag definitions from translated
pages (e.g. adjust definition to German wiki page).

Cheers,
Martin


* thing is, that different people see/interpret tags differently, and even
if trying to be neutral it is practically impossible to ignore your own
view/interpretation
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Re: [Tagging] RFC Tagging for complex junctions

2014-10-21 Thread Lukas Sommer
Yes, I’m aware of
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/highway=junction

However,
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/highway=junction
focuses on the tagging style of intersecting roads and proposes to not
connect them anymore and so avoid turn restrictions. But
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Tagging_for_complex_junctions
focuses on the junction area. I would prefer to keep both discussions
separate. (My first combined proposal for complex junctions and traffic
signals has shown that mixing up to much topics makes the discussion
harder.) However, I think both things are compatible.

Concerning the tag: junction=yes or highway=junction or something
completely different? The tag junction=yes is ugly, but currently yet in
use for simple junctions. If we decide to use highway=junction for the
area, we should use it also for the simple sections and move the existing
nodes with junction=yes to highway=junction. However, I’m open for both
solutions…

Lukas

Lukas Sommer

2014-10-21 16:00 GMT+00:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com:

 Am 18.10.2014 08:45, schrieb Lukas Sommer:
  Hello.
 
  The combined proposal for complex junctions and complex traffic signal
  systems had less support than I hoped (5 of 9 votes).
 
  Initially, I was thinking it was a good idea to treat these two features
  together. However, this was obviously not a good idea. It made the
  discussion harder. These two subjects seem to be to different to be
  treated together. So it seems to be better to split this into two
  different proposals: one for complex junctions and one for complex
  traffic signals.
 
  Today I start RFC for the complex junction tagging. A new proposal page
  has been created at
 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tagging_for_complex_junctions
  which takes into account the comments which have been made during the
  previous voting.

 Please have a look at the proposal for highway=junction [1]. It
 describes the same but with a different tag and the two proposal should
 be merged.

 Cheers fly

 [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/highway=junction


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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-21 Thread Hubert
Pre up: I have worked with him on the soft_lane proposal - results pending.
I think his intentions are good and that he just takes the be bold part of
the wiki too seriously, or the changes he makes are too large.
That said, I believe that talking to others is an important part of a
Community Project like OSM. If there are people that don't see that it will
upset others.

Also, FYI, I have updated the german pages on highway=cycleway und
cycleway=* (track template page) concerning the use of cw=use_sidepath as
defined prior (7.10 and 8.10). I hope this last a bit.

Regards Hubert


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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread John Willis


Sent from my iPad

 On Oct 21, 2014, at 10:45 PM, Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I was also thinking that landuse=retail makes more sense than either mall or 
 shopping_centre. If you have a big building enclosing lots of shops, you can 
 tag it building=mall. 
 
 johnw, I understand the distinction you're making (I would call your 
 shopping_centre a strip mall, I think). But do you really hear people use 
 these terms without overlap? Do you have some evidence of this usage? For 
 example, in wikipedia, the page 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_centres_in_the_United_Kingdom 
 distinguishes shopping centres (what you're defining as malls) from retail 
 parks (which you're defining as shopping centres).

A strip mall is usually much smaller. It doesn't have any anchor stores. 
Although many of them have names, most people refer to the store itself as 
their destination. I'm going to ___shop

They would never, ever, ever say I'm going to the mall for any of my shopping 
centre examples - but that would be the common term for referring to a large 
mall. They would also refer to the mall by name - I love going to Hanyu Aeon! 
- but almost never my def of a shopping_centre.

Malls are a city-wide or regional shopping attraction, distinct from a local 
group of shops on the side of the road. 

If we want to keep these car centric, amenity free, roadside shopping areas 
(whatever you want to call them) just in landuse=retail, and kill off 
shopping_centre, that's fine.  But the definition of mall needs to narrowed a 
bit to avoid this confusion.

Even though there is a couple satellite shops in a retail anchor store's space 
- anything with a couple shops inside is in no way a mall. Most really large 
supermarkets have small rental spots for a bank, florist, coffee  shop,, dry 
cleaner, or a donut shop. But 3 little stores doesn't make it a mall.  A mall 
is a big, special place. 

Javbw

 
 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:22 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:
 
 
 On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:54 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote:
 
 Your description of a mall as an enclosed place makes sense to me, but 
 where I live they seem to call anything a “mall”.
 
 Here is the Watchung Square Mall”: 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838
 and the “Valley Mall”:  http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041
 (both of those are really shopping centers, not malls)
 
 Yea. I tagged the local shopping centre here as a mall, because it has mall 
 in the title . But I will be changing that. 
 
 Anyway, I avoid the `shop=mall` and `shop=shopping_centre` completely.  I 
 usually tag `landuse=retail` for the area and `building=retail` for the 
 buildings.
 
 Me too, until realizing we have both these these tags. I love landuse=*so 
 much. 
 
 IMO, `shop=*` should really just be for a single shop.
 
 Yea - the mall seems more like retail=* sub tag stuff,if one exists. 
 
 Javbw. 
 
 
 
 
 On Oct 21, 2014, at 7:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a 
 closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor 
 connectivity. They appear to be similar as they both have several 
 independent shops and collective facilities like toilets and parking. 
 Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a 
 shopping center doesn't have to (but could have). I think small sets of 
 shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall but they might 
 constitute a shopping center.
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