no charge--to a v rich man
who (also) had defected to the perspective oftheRoman
Empire'sforemost radical critic
the NT tells us that Pilate not
only defied his dream-wife (feminist nightmare?), he daringly defied Caesar
himself, from whom orders later came to seal JCs tomb post around
You have one vivid imagination Gary; where oh where do
you find Jesus wasting time on criticizing
the Roman Empire? Being buried in a rich man's
tomb is making a statement but not the same one
as you are attempting to proffer.
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 00:57:40 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Thank you and yes I am. Children are awesome beings !! I have coached kids sports for 25 years, maybe a little more, soccer, baseball and wrestling, and I do it as much because of the uniqueness of the experience as for anything. If you ever think you have seen or heard it all, just hang out with
All of Canada chimes in 'bishop'.
Lance
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 18, 2006 07:06
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] creation
continued
Thank you and yes I am. Children are
Let's not forget that Paul and Christ Himself were very well educated.Luke and Matthew were bprobably better educated than most, as well. Most of the apostles, in fact, knew two -- maybe three - languages.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OK Gary - what NT is telling you all
this?
Even the NIV says it was the chief priests and
pharisees who were worried about the body
and so Pilate told them to set up their own watch ...
what voices are you listenting to in CO?
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 00:57:40 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As far as I know, Torrance believed that salvation was offered to all -- not a Calvinist opinion, my dear. And you are much more the Calvinist that he.
His comments below gives us a consistent explanation of the biblical notion that man is justified apart from obedience to the law. It beats a
IFO believe this to be both appropriate and wise,
David. Long ago Jonathan offered up a description of the participants on TT. His
observations, IMO, have been borne out over time.The dialogue has become almost
totally adversarial in tone. Most of those who had something to say, and said it
:-)
-- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All of Canada chimes in 'bishop'.
Lance
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 18, 2006 07:06
Subject: Re:
Other than the possible uniform affirmation that
God in Christ (see Colossians) is the 'commencer', I suspect that the views of
most informed believers would vary greatly on Gen 1-11. Why wouldn't
they?
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
Yes, and the importance of this conclusion -- It is Justification by Grace alone that guards the Gospel from corruption by "Evangel icals," "Liberals," and Romans alike. is lost to those who think that their think don't stink.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Lance
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 12:48:37 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
More than one observation: There are plenty of
reasons for believing that "day" in the creation
account does not mean a 24 hour period.
1. First , the Hebrew word itself is not limited in definition to this
Gary, you have accused someone of being a liar for saying Truth is Jesus
Christ. Now you say here that it is POSSIBLE that you think it is true
about JC being Truth?
First, let me lay out some new ground rules that are actually old ground
rules. We don't allow ad hominem style arguments such
Do you understand what you are reading yourself
Lance?
The statement below "Reformed doctrine of election" is
Calvinistic
John Knox who ppl say converted Scotland was
Presbyterian (Calvinistic)
Who pray tell wrote what Torrance calls the "Scots
Confession?"
Also "unprofitable servants"
You are quite correct as to your TFT observations,
JD. Judy brings to her reading of TFT a bias that will not permit an equitable
treatment of that which is there in the text of his article.
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ;
Because God's Word is true and every man a liar along
with the fact that God was the only
one there at the time and He has given us a written
record through his servant Moses.
This may be "simple minded" and "fundamentalist" to
your frame of reference but I can
guarantee I won't have to eat
David:Please be even-handed with your reprimands.
Would you not concur that Judy's question below is rhetorical in nature? Is she
not actually saying 'John, you are calling God a liar'? IMO such micromanaging
of the list says more about you than either of them. Remember the good old days
Election rather than "justification" is the subject
here JD; why do you seek to change it?
And why is it that you and Lance can not accept
the obvious
The Scots ConfessionWritten by John Knox and five other "Johns" (Willock,
Winram, Spottiswood, Row and Douglas), in 1560, at the conclusion
I LITERALLY cleaned my glasses, Judy. I took your
interpretation to heart and, you are wrong vis a vis TFT's take on 'election'. I
do see how you came to the conclusion you did, however.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc:
Lance why don't you get your own list together and
organize it from your perch up there in the
frozen North. David, Perry, Dean et al are doing
their best under trying conditions. Do you really
think they need an "expert opinion" hovering over their
shoulders constantly? A little sensitiity
One can only be appreciative of the contribution
made by yourself and David Miller as to my point of longstanding concerning
'illumination/interpretation'. You both lay claim to a nonexistent promise and,
thereafter exhibit the opposite in your writing.
- Original Message -
Why does he clearlyquote from what he does not
hold to then Lance?
Wouldn't you call this being doubleminded? His
doctrine is "Reformed" Calvinistic - same thing
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:56:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I LITERALLY cleaned my glasses, Judy. I took your
Notation after the fact: perhaps only the last paragraph is worth reading -- hopefully.
jd
One of the more important debates in the world of psychology is whether or not thoughts define a person. I rather think the heart of man is emotion. If the emotion is not given serious nourishment,
Read your post, David, and you will find
the answer. Izzy
Ec 3: 1There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a (A)time for every event under heaven--
2A
time to give birth and a (B)time to die.
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
Only those who love them would understand.
iz
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006
11:41 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A Special
Message from Rabbi
Blessings, JD. iz
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006
6:07 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] creation
continued
Thank you and yes I am.
The promise is only nonexistent to those steeped in
unbelief and those who are "selective" aboutwhat
they will receive from God's Word Lance. God calls this
kind of a person "double-minded" and says
that they will receive nothing from the Lord. (James
1:7,8)
Why do you call the Promise
OK Gary
- what NUT is telling you all this?
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006
6:48 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Jesus
Christ Truth?
Judy:Why indeed! Because he knew the works of Knox
thoroughly. He also knew the works of Calvin thoroughly as he was editor of the
22 volumes of Calvin's NT commentaries. Like all of redeemed humanity Judy, some
of what persons say is worthwhile.
- Original Message -
From:
David:Prior to my departure (one hears cheers in
the background) or, the cessation of TT, I'd like to have you lay out your
belief/teaching on this matter so that even such as myself could understand what
is being claimed by yourself and Judy.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Then why do you and JD deny the obvious
Lance?
Just admit that you admire the man and accept what he
says along with the teachings of Calvin
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 09:15:22 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Judy:Why indeed! Because he knew the works of
Knox thoroughly. He also
The pastor's comments in blood red.
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 12:48:37 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
More than one observation: There are plenty of reasons for believing that "day" in the creation account does
In his writing below about "existential decision"
Torrance confirms Calvin's doctrine of "Total Depravity" which teaches that
fallen mankind is akin to a literal corpse and unable to make a decision that is
anything but evil .. Unconditional Election follows along with Limited
Atonement. I
Judy:What is 'The Reformed Doctrine of Election' as
T. F. Torrance understands it (not as you understand it)?
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 18, 2006 09:29
Subject: [TruthTalk] torrance
In his writing
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:24:59 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The pastor's comments in blood
red.
JD writes: More than one observation: There are plenty of reasons for believing that
"day" in the creation account does not mean a 24 hour period.
1. First , the Hebrew
Since he quotes the Scots Confession, I would say his
understanding could be found
therein.
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 09:47:33 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Judy:What is 'The Reformed Doctrine of Election'
as T. F. Torrance understands it (not as you understand it)?
Until 1553 Knox was an agent of English Protestantism, like so many other
Reformed luminaries who lived in England during this period. He was influential
in the 2nd prayer book's insistence that there was no Real Presence in the
Lord's Supper. In many ways he became the model which English
That which follows is a phony self-deprecatory
commentty: Even though I've listened to everything he's taught that's been
recorded since 1954 and, have read nearly everything he's written, along with
many books that are about him/his work yet (here it comes) I'D NOT CALL MYSELF A
TFTORRANCE
If anyone has expressed a belief in "total depravity," it is Judy Taylor -- what with her notion of the "generaltional curse"and all. She denies the use of phrase "total depravity" while esposing the teaching.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL
Lance I don't have to know everything he has ever
taught or call myself a "Torrance expert" to know
what he says in the piece you posted. We are back
to what is a dog?, what is a cat?. What is a black dog?
What is a big black dog?. I am sorry to touch
your idol Lance. all tha ttime would
You JD obviously do not understand the meaning of
either - do your homework and then we will talk. jt
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:12:36 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If anyone has expressed a belief in "total depravity," it is Judy
Taylor -- what with her notion of the "generaltional
First, I do not beleive that you believe that scripture interprets scripture. What you actually mean to say is "this scripture defuncts that scripture." I AM using scripture to define scripture just as surely as anything you do with scripture.
How do I know what they knew? Well, I guess all I
Thanks for you substantive statement of fact versus opinion. But, I shall continue with my opinion in light of numerous JudyPosts in my possession.
And you did not answer Lance's question about TFT. In your words, specifically, what is Torrance's position as relates to Calvinism?I seriously do
On second thought, Judy, don't bother - as if you were going to answer the question, anyway !! Lance is correct -- if we have but a week remaining, trying to squeeze a real answer out of you on this one is not worth the effort. I will just say that you did and move on.
jd
--
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:25:44 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
First, I do not beleive that you believe that scripture interprets
scripture. What you actually mean to say is "this scripture defuncts
that scripture." I AM using scripture to define scripture just as
surely as anything
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:25:44 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
First, I do not beleive that you believe that scripture interprets scripture. What you actually mean to say is "this scripture defuncts that scripture." I AM using scripture to define scripture just as surely as anything you do
From what I know of the two men, it appears to me that Calvin was the better theologican and Luther the more involved pastor. They were not fully correct in their expressed theologies, but then, that just might be an impossibility for us all.
jd
-- Original message
So then Judy, are we off this now? IFO do not wish
to engage you further on this.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 18, 2006 10:22
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] torrance
Lance
I understand two things about them. One is that they
are , indeed, in need of love and (#2) they deny the Living
Christ , His gospel , His holy Spirit and blaspheme the Faith
nearly as often as they opportunity -- that is when they
are collecting monies from the far right.
jd
Lance, part of our difficulty in communicating on this is our definition of
believer. I think you have discerned in the past that I use the term
Christian in a broad sense of those who claim Christianity as their
religion. We would be in agreement in regards to Christians having widely
Judy, comments like this one are better made off the list. They
really are kind of insulting and do not add to the discussion at hand. I
realize that Lance provoked you here, but somebody has to cut it off and I think
you are mature enough to ignore comments like this one or discuss it off
No, Lance, I do not think Judy is being accusatory. She is expressing
a valid objection, that from her perspective, the way she is hearing John, she
wonders if he calls God a liar. John should answer the objection.
By the way, please write me privately about moderation issues, and if
John wrote:
And you did not answer Lance's question
about TFT. In your words, specifically,
what is Torrance's position as relates to
Calvinism? I seriously do not think you know.
Prove me wrong -- that will be fine with me.
You are asking the wrong person, John. Lance is the TruthTalk
John, I have a couple questions for you.
1. Have you ever read John Whitcomb's theological treatment concerning the
length of the day in Genesis 1? I have read his perspective and even
discussed this personally with him before, but he comes from a theology
background and I come from a
David: Please take note that I employed the term 'believer' knowing of this
sectarian distinction you are given to. Perhaps you move in insular circles
where such an outcome would be the case. I do not and, it would not. Should
you wish to pursue the matter further David, I'll simply mention
Lance finds himself compelled to jump in, David. What indeed is the point of
this hypothetical construct at the conclusion of your post? It is totally
meaningless. Whitcomb would not, I say again not, be taken seriously as a
theologian any more than Tim LaHaye would.
From: David Miller
I suspect that your last comment explains your lack of #1. iz
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:05 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] A
I have no intentions of defending myself against nonsensical accusation that have no basis in anything other than a desire to insult. I submit that there is no one on this forum who can honestly ask of me, "Do you call Goda liar?" By the way, this is not a response to "moderator." It is a
To your first question , "no."
To your second question, either you did not read my post or you have decided to insult my presentation?
jd
John, I have a couple questions for you.1. Have you ever read John Whitcomb's theological treatment concerning the length of the day in Genesis 1? I have
I am asking the "right" question, David. Surely it is appropriate to ask such a question of one who writes as it she knows of Torrance's "Calvinistic" belief system. Until she answers the question, why should we assume that sheknows what she is talking about as concerns the above matter?
By
DAVEH: LOL.That's a good one, Izzy!
ShieldsFamily wrote:
OK Gary
- what NUT is telling you
all this?
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
Sent: Saturday, March
18, 2006
6:48 AM
To:
Your suspicion is misquided, of course.And what is wrong with point # 2. Do you know of any orthodox Jews who do not deny the Christ? And why does that not have any meaning to you? I will give my money to the needy, thank you very much.
jd
-- Original message -- From:
John wrote:
To your first question , no.
If I get time, I will try and present some of it for you.
John wrote:
To your second question, either you
did not read my post or you have
decided to insult my presentation?
I read your post very carefully. I am not trying to insult you at all.
Think of the early chapters of Genesis as theological literature with the
emphasis on 'literature'. It is a well drawn story.
Bruce Waltke, in a recent commentary on Genesis, says the prologue
announces that the God of the covenant community is the same as the Creator
of the cosmos.
Waltke
I did think from previous encounters that you believed there
was no "literal" Hell.
DAVEH: Quite the contrary. As I view it, hell is the physical
separation from God and his love. The effect of such separation is
similar to how it would feel if you were cast into the burning garbage
dump of
Hi Lance. I don't mean to be rude, but all the below is the same boring
stuff I have heard for many years. Many scientists repeat this mantra too.
I just don't buy it. The Bible is more than poetry and literature that
answers questions outside of science. There are real, empirical
Dave, for what it is worth, your view of hell is also shared by many
Protestants. In fact, a very well known hell fire and brimestone preacher
by the name of Jed Smock (www.brojed.org) believes about hell pretty much
just like you do. Still, Jed will stand on campus and warn students loudly
By being AROGANT do you hope to convince the Arogant of their ERROR?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: myth (your presumptive dualismis characterized bytwo absolutes bothrooted in arrogance)On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 00:02:49 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:[Pilate]knew nothing about
Truth
David: I'd never consider a response that amount to 'harumph' rudeness. Did
you note the leap you took when shifting your response from Gen 1-11
(particular 1-3) so as to change the topic from creation to something else
entirely.
Would you like a list of real/practicing scientists who are
Frankly, I am not interested in what's his name. Post it to the group, if you like -- but don'tdo iton my account. I know what I believe on the matter.
Secondly, one's motivation for taking a particular position is quite unimportant. If you need an answer on that, hear me say "intellectual
Thy word is true from the beginning Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Other than the possible uniform affirmation that God in Christ (see Colossians) is the 'commencer', I suspect that the views of most informed believers would vary greatly on Gen 1-11. Why wouldn't they?-
Know was just a disciple of his Mother the REFORMED CATHOLIC Calvin http://www.newgenevacenter.org/biography/knox2.htm Knox began as a Catholic priest Knox became a major supporter and disciple of Calvin'sLance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy:Why indeed! Because he knew the works of
One other thought on the creation thread. I wrote my remarks more because of Conor than for any other reason. My comments can stand on their own, I believe. I do not believe in a 6000 year old earth nor do I beleive the bible teaches such - for the reasons stated. Could the earth be only 6000
It has occurred to me that legalism, although unattractive as it is, is not my real complaint. Henceforth and forever more, I will be opposed to sectarianism. The legal content of the sectarian is often different -- but the sectarian is the same kind of cat, regardless of his/her stripes. They
Maybe you can help me out here Dave H?Who do you, believe to be God?Father Son Holy Ghost
Yahoo! Mail
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
Then perhaps the devil in the verse below is also figurative? What other portions do you find to be FIGURATIVE? What is the figurative significance of "they must go in to the place"? This would seem to imply being sent somewher.In one particular sentence, why is "lake of fire and brimstone"
Lance have you attended these meetings?http://politicsofthecross.blogspot.com/ The Character of Theology by John Franke the reformed traditon, it is important to understand that he does not mean Charles Hodge and R. C. Sproul. He is talking about the tradition stemming from Barth. I believe
..another large crowd gathered...[in
a province of Rome that]
had nothing to eat, [so]
Jesus called his
disciples to him and said,
"I have
compassion for these people.. ©Mark
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 06:41:08 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
..Jesus wasting time..
||
JD wrote:
And virtually all of my argumentation was
of a contextual in nature. There was no
appeal to cultural or outside sources.
How is it that you missed this?
There was no direct contextual evidence in your presentation that the
meaning should be taken figuratively. Let me put it
.."You know that those
who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them,
and their high
officials exercise authority over them.."
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 20:22:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
..another large crowd
gathered...[in a province of Rome that]
had nothing to
"..they have already been
with me three days and have nothing to
eat.."
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 20:22:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
..another large crowd
gathered...[in a province of Rome that]
had nothing to eat,
[so] Jesus called
his disciples to him and said,
"I have
"Caesar Augustus issued a decree that
a census should be taken of the entire Roman world."
©Luke
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:00:30 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
.."You know that
those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them,
and their high
officials
..Jesus..went to..the villages around
Caesarea...along with his disciples and said:
"..What good is
it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?
©Mark
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 21:12:05 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
"Caesar Augustus issued a decree
that a census should
I must admit that my reasons for wanting the days in genesis to be
figurative is because I believe the universe to be an old place. I've never
really thought about that before, but I suppose that's where my opinion comes
from. When you really get down to it, I'm not much of an expert on
your view of hell is also shared by many
Protestants.
DAVEH: That is interestingthanx!
Do you ever warn people about the FIRE of
hell?
DAVEH: No, I don't do much preaching, and when I doI prefer to be
more positive in my approach.
David Miller wrote:
Dave, for what it is
DAVEH: For a guy who knows so much about LDS theology, Kevinrather
than me answering this, why don't you tell me how you believe about the
Father, Son and Holy Ghost?
Kevin Deegan wrote:
Maybe you can help me out here Dave H?
Who do you, believe to be God?
Father
Son
Holy
I don't make up things that paint God into any
corner;
DAVEH: Here's the problem as I see it, Judy. You seem to think God
can do anything, yet he seems to do things the hard way from our
perspective. If he could circumvent law, then why did he put his son
through the horror of dying on the
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