RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
WRONG Guy Blaine Read the Bible! http://www.biblelight.net/hebrew-canon.htm "... from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias"... . What could Jesus be referring to? Well, Abel was murdered in the book of Genesis, the first book of the Bible. And Zacharias? What book is his murder related in? Well let's look at our third text, a parallel passage, first: Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. Note that Jesus accuses the scribes and Pharisees of taking away the key of knowledge. What key is that? And what is God requiring of that generation? The answer is in the phrase "From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias ...". Well, again, Abel was slain in the first book of the Bible (Gen 4:8). Now those Protestants who anticipate the answer might begin looking for the murder of Zacharias in the book of Malachi. Why? Because Jesus is again referring to the full breadth of the scriptures (the key of knowledge, the oracles of God), from the first book of the Old Testament, to the last book of the Old Testament. A Protestant therefore, might well open their Bible to search in the last book of the Old Testament, Malachi, for the martyrdom of Zacharias. However, Malachi is not the last book of the Hebrew TaNaKh! What? That is correct. The Hebrew Bible, though identical in content to the Protestant Old Testament, is not in the same order as Protestant or Catholic Bibles. In the Hebrew Bible the last book is the book of Chronicles. That is where we find the murder of Zechariah between the altar and the temple: 2 Chr 24:20 And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada* the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.2 Chr 24:21 And they conspired against him, and stoned him with stones at the commandment of the king in the court of the house of the LORD.2 Chr 24:22 Thus Joash the king remembered not the kindness which Jehoiada his father had done to him, but slew his son. And when he died, he said, The LORD look upon it, and require it. It is worth noting that while Abel was the first martyr, Zechariah is not the last in the Old Testament, chronologically speaking. That was the prophet Urijah, killed by king Jehoiakim in Jeremiah 26:20-23, more than a century after the martyrdom of Zechariah: King Joash, who had Zechariah stoned within the temple's court (2 Chr 24:20-22), was the 13th king of the northern kingdom of Israel, and he ruled from 798-782 B.C. King Jehoiakim, who slew Urijah with a sword (Jer 26:20-23), was the 18th ruler of the southern kingdom of Judah, and he reigned from 609-598 B.C. Had Jesus been speaking chronologically, (from the first martyr to the last) He would have said - from the blood of Able unto the blood of Urijah, but that is not what He intended. He was clearly saying from the first book of scripture, to the last book of scripture. Therefore, in Matthew 23:35 and Luke 11:51, and in Luke 24:44, Jesus was explicitly referring to the order and divisions of the books in the Hebrew Bible as the complete span of scripture. "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Then according to this, Kay, John's (the Baptist) father, righteous Zacharias, was a false prophet--so were many others.Matthew 23:34-35: "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets,and wise men, and scribes, and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.""That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of Righteous Abel to the blood of Zacharias, whom ye slew between the temple and the alter."BlaineRBI think Scripture says the false prophet is to be killedKay --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Ummm...I think you have two different Zach's here, Blaine. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 14 January, 2005 10.25 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Then according to this, Kay, John's (the Baptist) father, righteous Zacharias, was a false prophet--so were many others. Matthew 23:34-35: "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets,and wise men, and scribes, and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city." "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of Righteous Abel to the blood of Zacharias, whom ye slew between the temple and the alter." BlaineRB I think Scripture says the false prophet is to be killed Kay -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Then according to this, Kay, John's (the Baptist) father, righteous Zacharias, was a false prophet--so were many others. Matthew 23:34-35: "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets,and wise men, and scribes, and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city." "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of Righteous Abel to the blood of Zacharias, whom ye slew between the temple and the alter." BlaineRB I think Scripture says the false prophet is to be killed Kay -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/13/2005 7:13:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I just skimmed most of this. But I'm not understanding why God would allegedly tell you something contrary to His Wordsuch as this "age of this and that". Sounds like dispensationalism to mewhich is clearly NOT Scriptural. I'm not going to debate over this, but I ask...was it God you heard from, or something else? We already have the foundation regarding prophets laid for us. The SAME foundation is continued in the Newer Covenant. Maybe I'm touchy about this subject since being stuck in a cult-group who said much of the same things you're currently sayingthe Lord told me, the Lord says...I had a dreamI had an awesome dream. I've been there, done that, and don't care to do it again. We were taken advantage of, preyed upon, treated like crap, had FOOD cut off from us and the children...including our own food, mind you, because we were wicked, horrible people who wouldn't bow down to the "leader" and his "prophet" and do what he said, no matter WHAT he said. Darn tootin' when someone says the same types of thingsit makes my skin crawl and makes me want to RUN and never return. Darn tootin' I would ask for PROOF of someone's proclamation of a certain gift, any of the gifts. I can give many witnesses for my own gifts...discernment, mercy, encouragement. So should you, David. There's an old Yiddish word for it... bülshit. K DavidM -- I hope you can take a look at what K says and understand hers/Slade's concern with not only your claim but your defense. Few prophets, if any, biblically speaking, were not convincing. If you are a prophet, take a look at your presentation as a prophet and consider how you can deal with the problem. You appear to me to be a prophet without an assigment. I don't consider King David a prophet but I do consider Nathan to be one. Is it possible that you are not a prophet but a teacher or an evangelist? I do see that as a possibility. The prophet thing -- I don't see it, either. I am not the one to determine this -- since I do not know you well enough to make that determination. So I just offer some advice/suggestion. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Some have it more than others. I can smell a rat from several states away, too. :) Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Thursday, 13 January, 2005 18.15 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Slade Henson wrote: >I just skimmed most of this. But I'm not understanding why God would >allegedly tell you something contrary to His Wordsuch as this "age of >this and that". Sounds like dispensationalism to mewhich is clearly NOT >Scriptural. I'm not going to debate over this, but I ask...was it God you >heard from, or something else? We already have the foundation regarding >prophets laid for us. The SAME foundation is continued in the Newer >Covenant. > Maybe I'm touchy about this subject since being stuck in a cult-group who >said much of the same things you're currently sayingthe Lord told me, >the Lord says...I had a dreamI had an awesome dream. I've been there, >done that, and don't care to do it again. We were taken advantage of, >preyed upon, treated like crap, had FOOD cut off from us and the >children...including our own food, mind you, because we were wicked, >horrible people who wouldn't bow down to the "leader" and his "prophet" and >do what he said, no matter WHAT he said. Darn tootin' when someone says the >same types of thingsit makes my skin crawl and makes me want to RUN and >never return. Darn tootin' I would ask for PROOF of someone's proclamation >of a certain gift, any of the gifts. I can give many witnesses for my own >gifts...discernment, mercy, encouragement. So should you, David. >There's an old Yiddish word for it... bülshit. > >K > > == Just an observation. I have never met a believer who did not believe that one of their gifts was discernment. Terry > > > -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Slade Henson wrote: I just skimmed most of this. But I'm not understanding why God would allegedly tell you something contrary to His Wordsuch as this "age of this and that". Sounds like dispensationalism to mewhich is clearly NOT Scriptural. I'm not going to debate over this, but I ask...was it God you heard from, or something else? We already have the foundation regarding prophets laid for us. The SAME foundation is continued in the Newer Covenant. Maybe I'm touchy about this subject since being stuck in a cult-group who said much of the same things you're currently sayingthe Lord told me, the Lord says...I had a dreamI had an awesome dream. I've been there, done that, and don't care to do it again. We were taken advantage of, preyed upon, treated like crap, had FOOD cut off from us and the children...including our own food, mind you, because we were wicked, horrible people who wouldn't bow down to the "leader" and his "prophet" and do what he said, no matter WHAT he said. Darn tootin' when someone says the same types of thingsit makes my skin crawl and makes me want to RUN and never return. Darn tootin' I would ask for PROOF of someone's proclamation of a certain gift, any of the gifts. I can give many witnesses for my own gifts...discernment, mercy, encouragement. So should you, David. There's an old Yiddish word for it... bülshit. K == Just an observation. I have never met a believer who did not believe that one of their gifts was discernment. Terry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I just skimmed most of this. But I'm not understanding why God would allegedly tell you something contrary to His Wordsuch as this "age of this and that". Sounds like dispensationalism to mewhich is clearly NOT Scriptural. I'm not going to debate over this, but I ask...was it God you heard from, or something else? We already have the foundation regarding prophets laid for us. The SAME foundation is continued in the Newer Covenant. Maybe I'm touchy about this subject since being stuck in a cult-group who said much of the same things you're currently sayingthe Lord told me, the Lord says...I had a dreamI had an awesome dream. I've been there, done that, and don't care to do it again. We were taken advantage of, preyed upon, treated like crap, had FOOD cut off from us and the children...including our own food, mind you, because we were wicked, horrible people who wouldn't bow down to the "leader" and his "prophet" and do what he said, no matter WHAT he said. Darn tootin' when someone says the same types of thingsit makes my skin crawl and makes me want to RUN and never return. Darn tootin' I would ask for PROOF of someone's proclamation of a certain gift, any of the gifts. I can give many witnesses for my own gifts...discernment, mercy, encouragement. So should you, David. There's an old Yiddish word for it... bülshit. K -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Thursday, 13 January, 2005 14.29 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
David Miller wrote: >> ... the Lord told me that I was functioning as a >> prophet ... SLADE wrote: > How clear was this message? Was it riddled > with parables? Was the message clear, concise, > and very much to the point? The message was very clear, but perhaps not the absolute clearest revelation possible. I have only had one experience where the Lord spoke to me audibly. It was an experience very much like Samuel and happened before I had ever had any kind of revelatory experience. At that time, he did not tell me anything about a call to be a prophet. When this experience happened, I was at first thrilled that the Lord had spoken to me, but as time passed and I did not hear from him again, I began to seek him out in prayer, wondering why he maintained his silence. There began to be times when the Lord visited me and spoke to me again, but it has never been in an audible way like that first encounter. More often, it has been in a dream or vision. I also have had experiences that required interpretation, but not in this particular case that we have been talking about. In this particular case where he told me that I had been functioning as a prophet, it was a spiritual vision, not audible, but there was no allegory involved. He simply spoke it to me as I have relayed it to you. I saw the Angel of the Lord standing in front of me in this vision, but that was it. It probably lasted less than a minute, in my bedroom, as I was on the floor on my knees praying. SLADE wrote: > Interesting nonanswer. A teacher, a Rabbi, and that rare > person with a Helping Heart are what they are because > of what he/she receives from above; therefore your > statement lends no support to your assertion. Perhaps you make a bigger distinction between prophet and teacher than I do. For me, these terms are simply descriptions of different jobs. Those who fill these jobs are meant to fit together in community and relationship. Human nature is to snub the apostolic and prophetic offices and to give greater honor to the teacher, but the Spirit more highly values these offices. Slade wrote: > Also, I did not ask for you to defend yourself, I > simply requested that you give a proof to your claim. > This request on my part is perfectly acceptable. > You, yourself agree when you stated, < prophets would give a sign. This was the basis by > which the Jews approached Jesus... they had a right > to ask for such a sign>>. I claim that right as well, > but the Newer Testament" [wannabe] prophets deny > this right. You have done the same. I do not make the rules, Slade. I have read the OT like you, but as I sought the Lord about it, he revealed to me that there has been a change between the OT and the NT. I explained that change in my last post. Prophets, generally speaking, do not give signs that accompany their word. The Spirit itself bears witness within the heart of the believing hearer. Slade wrote: > If you are a prophet, you should not fear! I don't fear. I would love to give you what you want. Hey, it would give me great satisfaction to give you a sign and have you look up to me as someone who is truthful. The problem is that I am kind of in the position like Balaam, who seeks the Lord to try and give what is being asked of him, but when he returns, he can only give that which the Lord has given him. If the Lord does not give me a sign to deliver to you, there really is nothing I can do about that. If that causes you to conclude that I am a false prophet or that I fear being exposed, that is between you and the Lord. There is nothing I can do about it. I did once hope very much that the Lord would prove himself through a sign. I was attending a Baptist church that did not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in tongues. They had a visiting minister from the Middle East who spoke five languages fluently. The pastor there wanted me to get with him and this man and speak in tongues for them. They believed that I was probably possessed by an evil spirit, and they wanted to use his linguistic knowledge to expose the spirit and show me that I was speaking things that were an abomination to God. The other alternative was that they could use his knowledge of langauge to show me that I was just speaking gibberish. Well, the results of their test ended up not being very conclusive. I yielded myself to the Spirit and spoke in five different dialects, but the man did not understand any of the languages that I spoke. He was able, however, to pick out some words here and there. Their conclusion was that I was a very sincere follower of Christ. Therefore, they dismissed the idea that I might be possessed by an evil spirit. However, they did not accept that I was truly speaking by the Holy Spirit of God. This linguist person said that he believed that I had, as a child, been exposed to various languages, and these languages were in my subcons
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:17 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Prophets who speak lies are very apt to pull people away from the Holy One, therefore, may God never forget the iniquity of ALL false prophets. That's why God says to kill them. Should they repent and NEVER PROPHESY AGAIN nor CLAIM to be a prophet, may G-d forgive them. Daniel Lee knows he falsely prophesies, yet he claims he repents but HE CONTINUES TO DO IT! In fact, he gave over 70 prophesies in a month's time or so. Talk about being possessed! May God not forget his iniquity. On the other hand, may God bring him to TRUE repentance. Prophets, we are told, are to be obeyed until they are proven wrong. When one claims to be a prophet, how are we to gauge their prophetic calling? Do we do the "christian" thing and say, "By Jove! That man sez heez a proffet! He's gotta be rite until heez rong?" No we do not. What the prophet says will come true and will be fact. It's not out of the question for proof of his prophesy. If anything, it's honorable to ask for proof. It's dishonorable to hide behind misappropriated Scripture. n Slade Slade, that illustrates my point that repentance is not just confession, but actually turning from evil and doing right. Talk is cheap. BTW, I don’t think I’ve ever heard David Miller prophesy anything, but then I’m not part of his church fellowship where I would expect his calling to operate. I always thought of a prophet of one who does not just prophecy future events, but simply boldly speaks forth the oracles of God to the unrepentant. What do you think? Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
-Original Message-From: David MillerSent: Wednesday, 12 January, 2005 18.45Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementDAVIDM...When I first began receiving revelation (dreams and visions), the Lord told me that I was functioning as a prophet but that I should not advertise that I was functioning in this way. He instructed me to tell others that inquired who I was that I was a brother in Christ. I kept it this way for many years, but after I matured and learned more about the different administrations in the body of Christ, the Lord released me to inform others that I was a prophet because many do not know what a prophet is. As I began to teach others about the function of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, it became useful for me to use myself as an example of the prophetic ministry.SLADE...How clear was this message? Was it riddled with parables? Was the message clear, concise, and very much to the point? DAVID...No, I am not deity, but a prophet is a prophet because of what he receives from above. There is a similar character that God requires of those whom he anoints for such jobs, that character of not defending oneself nor pushing oneself forward as somebody.SLADE...Interesting nonanswer. A teacher, a Rabbi, and that rare person with a Helping Heart are what they are because of what he/she receives from above; therefore your statement lends no support to your assertion. Also, I did not ask for you to defend yourself, I simply requested that you give a proof to your claim. This request on my part is perfectly acceptable. You, yourself agree when you stated, <>. I claim that right as well, but the Newer Testament" [wannabe] prophets deny this right. You have done the same. If you are a prophet, you should not fear! The Spirit of the Holy One guards and guides your lips. Speak it forth, brother. If you are a prophet, let u all glory in God over this rare find. If not... the Spirit never spoke through you and you deceived not only yourself but others as well. DAVID...This is one difference that I have discerned between the OT prophets and the NT prophets. The OT prophets would give a sign. This was the basis by which the Jews approached Jesus and asked him for a sign to prove that he was that Prophet spoken of by Moses. I have sought the Lord on this subject rather diligently, because based upon my study of the Hebrew Scriptures, they had a right to ask for such a sign. The Spirit told me that because it is the age of grace and faith, and especially now because the Spirit has been poured out upon all, it is prudent not to focus upon signs. Instead, signs generally come in response to faith. My interpretation of this is that there really is no "normal Joe" that is distinct from prophets, but rather all of those in Christ are priests and prophets unto God. The only reason that some are identified as prophets is because they have a personal responsibility toward God to continue to function in the revelatory gifts and be an example to the body in this way with the hope that all will walk in the Spirit of revelation.SLADE...Herein lies the problems. When Peter, the apostle to the Jewish people his letter, he wrote it to the exiles (the dispersion). Within this context, Peter mentions that the recipients of this letter are holy priesthood. There was no mention of prophet. You have erroneously inserted this. Your statement [and I paraphrase] that prophets are different in the NT than they were in the OT is justification to slide yourself into the office of prophet. Again, your statement < > rings true for me because of the prophetic nuances of the Spirit I spoke of before. This, in itself, if NOT the prophetic gift. DAVID MILLER wrote two emails ago...If you think that I do not measure up to what a prophet ought to be, that is your decision. What we are in the body of Christ is something we do not have to protect or defend. We are who we are. Jesus told me that those who receive me receive him, and those who reject me reject him. Therefore, I leave it all in the hands of my Lord.SLADE wrote two emails ago...Yeshua spoke that in response to Himself and His relationship with God... AS THE ONLY MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN.DAVID wrote...That is not the only context in which he spoke this (see Luke 10:16), but I was referring to a personal revelation, not to Scripture which I would apply to myself.SLADE now says...Speak in His name, and I'll agree with you. STOP speaking in David Miller's name so I can stop disagreeing. SLADE wrote...You are nowhere even CLOSE to the majesty of Yeshua.DAVID replied...Are you saying that you do not believe that Christ lives in me and through me?SLADE now respon
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Prophets who speak lies are very apt to pull people away from the Holy One, therefore, may God never forget the iniquity of ALL false prophets. That's why God says to kill them. Should they repent and NEVER PROPHESY AGAIN nor CLAIM to be a prophet, may G-d forgive them. Daniel Lee knows he falsely prophesies, yet he claims he repents but HE CONTINUES TO DO IT! In fact, he gave over 70 prophesies in a month's time or so. Talk about being possessed! May God not forget his iniquity. On the other hand, may God bring him to TRUE repentance. Prophets, we are told, are to be obeyed until they are proven wrong. When one claims to be a prophet, how are we to gauge their prophetic calling? Do we do the "christian" thing and say, "By Jove! That man sez heez a proffet! He's gotta be rite until heez rong?" No we do not. What the prophet says will come true and will be fact. It's not out of the question for proof of his prophesy. If anything, it's honorable to ask for proof. It's dishonorable to hide behind misappropriated Scripture. -- slade -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamilySent: Tuesday, 11 January, 2005 22.59Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement SLADE'S NEWEST RESPONSE... Your last response about the sign of Jonah is the same argument made by the ridiculous false prophet Daniel John Lee (may God not forget his iniquity). Slade, I’m curious—why did you say that? Aren’t we supposed to walk in forgiveness, etc, etc? Just wondering what your take on it is. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
SLADE wrote: > How do you KNOW you are a prophet? When I first began receiving revelation (dreams and visions), the Lord told me that I was functioning as a prophet but that I should not advertise that I was functioning in this way. He instructed me to tell others that inquired who I was that I was a brother in Christ. I kept it this way for many years, but after I matured and learned more about the different administrations in the body of Christ, the Lord released me to inform others that I was a prophet because many do not know what a prophet is. As I began to teach others about the function of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, it became useful for me to use myself as an example of the prophetic ministry. SLADE wrote: > Yeshua was tempted to "prove" his deity. > You are not deity, therefore the comparison is lacking. No, I am not deity, but a prophet is a prophet because of what he receives from above. There is a similar character that God requires of those whom he anoints for such jobs, that character of not defending oneself nor pushing oneself forward as somebody. Slade wrote: > Your last response about the sign of Jonah is the > same argument made by the ridiculous false prophet > Daniel John Lee (may God not forget his iniquity). I am kind of surprised he did not try to oblige you. He has made many false predictions. Slade wrote: > We, the normal Joe in the universe is to be given > something to prove that a prophet should be listened > to and you deny us the right to that proof. This is one difference that I have discerned between the OT prophets and the NT prophets. The OT prophets would give a sign. This was the basis by which the Jews approached Jesus and asked him for a sign to prove that he was that Prophet spoken of by Moses. I have sought the Lord on this subject rather diligently, because based upon my study of the Hebrew Scriptures, they had a right to ask for such a sign. The Spirit told me that because it is the age of grace and faith, and especially now because the Spirit has been poured out upon all, it is prudent not to focus upon signs. Instead, signs generally come in response to faith. My interpretation of this is that there really is no "normal Joe" that is distinct from prophets, but rather all of those in Christ are priests and prophets unto God. The only reason that some are identified as prophets is because they have a personal responsibility toward God to continue to function in the revelatory gifts and be an example to the body in this way with the hope that all will walk in the Spirit of revelation. David Miller wrote: >> If you think that I do not measure up to what a prophet >> ought to be, that is your decision. What we are in the >> body of Christ is something we do not have to protect >> or defend. We are who we are. Jesus told me that those >> who receive me receive him, and those who reject me >> reject him. Therefore, I leave it all in the hands of my Lord. SLADE wrote: > Yeshua spoke that in response to Himself and His relationship > with God... AS THE ONLY MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD > AND MAN. That is not the only context in which he spoke this (see Luke 10:16), but I was referring to a personal revelation, not to Scripture which I would apply to myself. Slade wrote: > You are nowhere even CLOSE to the majesty > of Yeshua. Are you saying that you do not believe that Christ lives in me and through me? Slade wrote: > You are hiding behind some of the worst Biblical > interpretations I've seen on TruthTalk. You are not > the mediator between man and Yeshua. If this is > what you believe, I am in the wrong discussion group. LOL. I have never claimed to be a mediator between man and Yeshua. Nobody needs me to follow Yeshua. You misunderstand my Biblical interpretations and twist almost everything I say. Why? I kind of feel as if you are trying to catch me in my words to demonstrate some fault in me somewhere. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/12/2005 5:08:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think Scripture says the false prophet is to be killed Kay :-)
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
That’s fine with me. However didn’t Jesus say something else? Could Slade please respond also? I’d seriously like to know when we should ask God to judge someone vs when we should forgive and forget. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 7:06 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I think Scripture says the false prophet is to be killed Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Tuesday, 11 January, 2005 22.59 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement SLADE'S NEWEST RESPONSE... Your last response about the sign of Jonah is the same argument made by the ridiculous false prophet Daniel John Lee (may God not forget his iniquity). Slade, I’m curious—why did you say that? Aren’t we supposed to walk in forgiveness, etc, etc? Just wondering what your take on it is. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I think Scripture says the false prophet is to be killed Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Tuesday, 11 January, 2005 22.59To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement SLADE'S NEWEST RESPONSE... Your last response about the sign of Jonah is the same argument made by the ridiculous false prophet Daniel John Lee (may God not forget his iniquity). Slade, I’m curious—why did you say that? Aren’t we supposed to walk in forgiveness, etc, etc? Just wondering what your take on it is. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
SLADE'S NEWEST RESPONSE... Your last response about the sign of Jonah is the same argument made by the ridiculous false prophet Daniel John Lee (may God not forget his iniquity). Slade, I’m curious—why did you say that? Aren’t we supposed to walk in forgiveness, etc, etc? Just wondering what your take on it is. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
-Original Message- From: David Miller Sent: Monday, 10 January, 2005 11.26 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement DAVIDM... Well, I am not one of those kinds who says, "I AM A PROPHET." As I said before, I tend to be one who runs from the call when it comes (like Jonah). I try to find excuses why not to go or why somebody else should go. I am trying to do better, but I still have a lot of room for growth. SLADE... How do you KNOW you are a prophet? SLADE PREVIOUSLY... > So which are you!?! The never give a word type, > an occasional word type, or the always a word > type? DAVID RESPONDED... I don't recognize these different types that you have outlined. There are true prophets and false prophets, and I believe that I am of the true variety. Of course, it would be ridiculous to think that there exists a prophet who never gives a word. That's like saying there is a baker who never bakes or a teacher who never teaches or an evangelist who never evangelizes. SLADE'S NEWEST RESPONSE: Ok, you understand my point. However, I have never met a true prophet, though I believe true prophets exist. SLADE PREVIOUSLY... > Are you willing to test the mettle of > your prophetic gift? DAVIDM RESPONDED... No, not really. I don't want to tempt God. I take the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness seriously. Satan challenged him on whether or not he really was the son of God. Jesus was tempted to prove himself, but he did not. The Pharisees also asked him for a sign to prove who he was, and Jesus said that an evil and adulterous generation seeks for such signs, but no sign would be given them but the sign of Jonah. SLADE'S NEWEST RESPONSE... Yeshua was tempted to "prove" his deity. You are not deity, therefore the comparison is lacking. Your last response about the sign of Jonah is the same argument made by the ridiculous false prophet Daniel John Lee (may God not forget his iniquity). We, the normal Joe in the universe is to be given something to prove that a prophet should be listened to and you deny us the right to that proof. I can only surmise that you are not what you claim, but it's clear by your next statement that you don't care either. DAVID M... If you think that I do not measure up to what a prophet ought to be, that is your decision. What we are in the body of Christ is something we do not have to protect or defend. We are who we are. Jesus told me that those who receive me receive him, and those who reject me reject him. Therefore, I leave it all in the hands of my Lord. SLADE... Yeshua spoke that in response to Himself and His relationship with God... AS THE ONLY MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN. You are nowhere even CLOSE to the majesty of Yeshua. You are hiding behind some of the worst Biblical interpretations I've seen on TruthTalk. You are not the mediator between man and Yeshua. If this is what you believe, I am in the wrong discussion group. -- slade -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
-Original Message- From: David Miller Sent: Monday, 10 January, 2005 11.34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement SLADE ONCE SAID... > ... there is a grace I can give since you are > not a prophet ... You see, we all have Yeshua > dwelling within us, and Yeshua IS the spirit of > prophesy. DAVID RESPONDED... This is so true. Prophets are not meant to be held on some ideological pedestal. They serve as examples of one aspect of Christ, an aspect that exists within every believer who has the testimony of Christ. Teachers serve as examples of teaching, but all believers may teach. Evangelists serve as examples of evangelizing, but all believers may evangelize. Prophets serve as examples of prophesying, but all believers may prophesy. What you should be careful about, however, is what Paul warned the Corinthians about. SLADE Thank you for your warning. I think I am careful. However, prophets are to be 100% correct when delivering a "word" from G-d. Is 100% accuracy necessary only when this "word" is said to be "The Word From The Lord?" I think not! -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Slade wrote: > Saying the Messianic Movement is of God makes > no sense within the context of this message. This comment tells me that you have misunderstood my post, because without this context, what I wrote could be easily twisted. This thread began weeks ago. Following is what I wrote on Dec. 23, 2004: -- - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] The Messianic Movement Slade wrote: > You see Hebrew Mindset being placed on a pedestal. > I see more people calling it cultic and dangerous. People often ask me what I think of the Messianic movement. I always start my reply with the statement that I believe the Messianic movement is of God. However, these days I find myself needing to follow it up with a warning of dangerous elements within the movement. There indeed are cultic and dangerous elements there. Sometimes I point out how the charismatic movement was once mostly pure, but as it progressed, many false shepherds entered it and made quite a quagmire out of it. I suppose the same thing can be said of Christianity in general, so we really should not be surprised. I have always appreciated studying the Hebrew mindset because it does at times bring fresh light upon various passages of Scripture. Nevertheless, on TruthTalk there has been numerous comments to the effect that anyone who expresses a Greek kind of thinking must be in error. It is the rationality of guilt by similarity, like saying, "Hitler was a Lutheran Christian so all Christians are like Hitler." While it might be true that an overemphasis upon Greek thought could lead some of us into error, exactly the same thing could be said about an overemphasis upon Hebrew thinking. This becomes especially obvious when we realize that the Hebrew mind, for the most part, rejected Yeshua HaMashiach. Therefore, I don't think Greek thinking is taboo, neither is Hebrew thinking. God has reached out to all of mankind, first to the Hebrews, then to the Greeks. Each culture has its perspective that makes different aspects of God comprehensible. -- Kay then asked me to clarify my sentence that mentioned dangerous elements within this move of God known as the Messianic Movement. David Miller wrote: >> The dangerous aspects are those within the movement >> who emphasize shadows over reality. Slade wrote: > The problem with this statement is the subjectivity of > your definition of "shadows." You are clearly one who > sees Newer Testament fulfillment of Older Testament > "shadows" as nullifying these OT "shadows" in favor > of NT "realities." I do not believe that observing shadows nullifies reality. So your perception of me is false. Slade wrote: > Again, you make it clear that those of a different > theological slant than you are considered dangerous. No, I do not believe this at all. What I consider dangerous are those extremists who emphasize the shadows OVER reality. Imagine a statue which casts a shadow, and a group of people want to study and understand this statue. Most start looking at the statue itself and handling it and describing it. Someone in the group notices the shadow of the statue and wonders why everyone is ignoring it, so he goes over there and starts describing the shadow. Nothing wrong with that, but suppose he begins to argue with the ones looking at the statue itself that there is no way they will ever understand the statue unless they come down there to where he is and study the shadow with him. In fact, he insists that the actual statue is a distraction, and that all attention needs to shift immediately and permanently to the shadow. At this point, I think that such a person would represent a danger to the groups goal of understanding the statue. This would be analagous to what I was trying to say about those individuals within the Messianic movement who emphasize the shadow over reality. Slade wrote: > I hear "obedience" touted on this board a lot > [by you and Judy Taylor], yet when one claims > to be obedient, they are dangerous. No, obedience is not dangerous, but there is danger in certain types of legalism. You have taught this yourself. Slade wrote: > Are you are being double-minded or setting us > up to fail? Again, this argument is rooted in ignorance. > When Messiah returns, we will be celebrating the > Sabbath, the New Moons, Feast of Tabernacles, > etc., yet you oppose it. I have never opposed celebrating these events. Like I said, you misunderstand me. Slade wrote: > You are suggesting a schizoid faith I want no part of. > I'd rather me pagan. Perhaps Dave Hanson and I have > more in common than you and I. Wow! I did not realize that, but if you say so. David Miller wrote: >> of circumcision of the flesh in addition to >> circumcision of the heart, etc. Slade wrote: > In addition to?
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Slade wrote: > ... there is a grace I can give since you are > not a prophet ... You see, we all have Yeshua > dwelling within us, and Yeshua IS the spirit of > prophesy. This is so true. Prophets are not meant to be held on some ideological pedestal. They serve as examples of one aspect of Christ, an aspect that exists within every believer who has the testimony of Christ. Teachers serve as examples of teaching, but all believers may teach. Evangelists serve as examples of evangelizing, but all believers may evangelize. Prophets serve as examples of prophesying, but all believers may prophesy. What you should be careful about, however, is what Paul warned the Corinthians about. 1 Corinthians 12:20-23 (20) But now are they many members, yet but one body. (21) And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. (22) Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: (23) And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Slade wrote: > Here's where the problem arises. I know many > who claim the prophetic gift, but never proclaim > anything. I hear the declaration "I AM A PROPHET" > as if they deserve my reverence, yet they never speak > "a word from the LORD." Well, I am not one of those kinds who says, "I AM A PROPHET." As I said before, I tend to be one who runs from the call when it comes (like Jonah). I try to find excuses why not to go or why somebody else should go. I am trying to do better, but I still have a lot of room for growth. Slade wrote: > So which are you!?! The never give a word type, > an occasional word type, or the always a word > type? I don't recognize these different types that you have outlined. There are true prophets and false prophets, and I believe that I am of the true variety. Of course, it would be ridiculous to think that there exists a prophet who never gives a word. That's like saying there is a baker who never bakes or a teacher who never teaches or an evangelist who never evangelizes. Slade wrote: > Are you willing to test the mettle of > your prophetic gift? No, not really. I don't want to tempt God. I take the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness seriously. Satan challenged him on whether or not he really was the son of God. Jesus was tempted to prove himself, but he did not. The Pharisees also asked him for a sign to prove who he was, and Jesus said that an evil and adulterous generation seeks for such signs, but no sign would be given them but the sign of Jonah. If you think that I do not measure up to what a prophet ought to be, that is your decision. What we are in the body of Christ is something we do not have to protect or defend. We are who we are. Jesus told me that those who receive me receive him, and those who reject me reject him. Therefore, I leave it all in the hands of my Lord. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Unfortunately DavidM decided this was a major reason that the Messianic Movement is dangerous. I am merely quoting DavidM in this manner. Please know that in my last email, the courier font was DavidM. -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Sunday, 09 January, 2005 04.18To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/8/2005 7:34:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The dangerous aspects are those within the movement who emphasize shadows over reality.News flash Truth is "dangerous." The above comments, once again, have nothing to do with the actual debate itself. Whether an aspect of a movement is "dangerous" is of no logical consequence to the discussion at hand -- but, oh how we love to press our judgment as if that carried some weight in the determination of "truth." Christ's claims were considered "dangerous." So what ? !! It seems to me that a better use of script would be to simply stick to the subject. Jd
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/8/2005 7:34:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The dangerous aspects are those within the movement who emphasize shadows over reality. News flash Truth is "dangerous." The above comments, once again, have nothing to do with the actual debate itself. Whether an aspect of a movement is "dangerous" is of no logical consequence to the discussion at hand -- but, oh how we love to press our judgment as if that carried some weight in the determination of "truth." Christ's claims were considered "dangerous." So what ? !! It seems to me that a better use of script would be to simply stick to the subject. Jd
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
-Original Message-From: David MillerSent: Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 10.00Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementDAVIDMI think you very much have misunderstood my post. I testified that the Messianic movement is of God, but qualified that with the observation that like all movements of God, there are some dangerous elements within it. These would be those who function like the Judaizers in Paul's day. Kay asked for clarification on that statement and this is the context in which my post ought to be understood.SLADE Nice save... but alas. It doesn't save. The context of the message you gave was within "what aspects of the Messianic Movement you feel may be dangerous." This was the question posed to you, and the response you gave was clearly understood within its context. Saying the Messianic Movement is of God makes no sense within the context of this message. Your message is below and I have dissected it from my understanding and within the context of it a specific answer to a very specific question. DavidM remains in 12-point Courier font while I revert to 12-point Times New Roman. The dangerous aspects are those within the movement who emphasize shadows over reality. The problem with this statement is the subjectivity of your definition of "shadows." You are clearly one who sees Newer Testament fulfillment of Older Testament "shadows" as nullifying these OT "shadows" in favor of NT "realities." Again, you make it clear that those of a different theological slant than you are considered dangerous. This is a perfectly logical extension of your thought here. Also, what happens when someone thinks your "reality" is indeed "shadow?" Does that make you just as dangerous? Worse case scenario, it makes you alone in your own heaven at the end of days. At best, it makes you alone here on earth until the end of day. For example, those who think that keeping Torah commandments that deal with shadows is the only way to be pleasing to God. Here you give an example of your opinion of emphasizing shadows over reality (see your comment, "For example"). What you state here is dangerous unless one is a prophet which you have been disqualified until further notice. Why is it dangerous? Because you attempt to climb into the heads of people and determine their heart. "The only way to be pleasing" is a statement with no basis designed to elevate your argument. Illogical, yet common argument... first used against the Marranos if memory serves me correctly. This would include the practice of killing a lamb in addition to faith in Yeshua What are you implying here? Are you saying we sacrifice lambs? Are you saying we kill lambs to eat? You kill cows for food and so do I. I kill lambs to eat... and you don't? Are you, perhaps, referring to the remembrance of Passover? If so, what do you think we think the Pascal [meal] lamb represents? of observing the moedim in addition to remembering that to which they point, of sabbath observance in addition to entering the kingdom of God, I hear "obedience" touted on this board a lot [by you and Judy Taylor], yet when one claims to be obedient, they are dangerous. Are you are being double-minded or setting us up to fail? Again, this argument is rooted in ignorance. When Messiah returns, we will be celebrating the Sabbath, the New Moons, Feast of Tabernacles, etc., yet you oppose it. You are suggesting a schizoid faith I want no part of. I'd rather me pagan. Perhaps Dave Hanson and I have more in common than you and I. of circumcision of the flesh in addition to circumcision of the heart, etc. In addition to? Is there a specific order to these circumcisions are you suggesting is wrong? Where do you understand Jewish people never to circumcise their male children? Do you not know that Moses required circumcision of the heart as well? Also, those who insist upon using Hebrew names, You insist upon using Greek and English names! Why is your way so much superior when we consider that transliterations of modern Hebrew and Greek names are used today (i.e., Yitzchak Rabin, Ariel Sharon, etc.). of denouncing the Trinity, etc. No one here has renounced the Trinity to my knowledge. Perhaps your greatest difficulty is with the Oneness Pentecostal movement and not Messianism after all! I will admit to knowing some in the Messianic Movement who oppose Trinitarianism, but I've never considered that a big deal. I don't think it's a big deal that Oneness Pentecostals and hardcore Trinitarians are going to share the Kingdom with me either. Perhaps you are speaking of my refusal to be dogmatic about the Trinity or about Oneness! Generally, the Judaizing elements are causes of concern. A definition of "Judaizing" would be nice... since you're generalizing here. In my definition, I
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 10.00 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement DAVIDM There are many different types of prophets, both in OT and NT times. The prophets Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and John the Baptist all functioned differently. David ministered prophetically primarily through song. Ezekiel through pantomine. Moses through leadership and mighty miracles. John the Baptist without either miracle or many great prophetic statements concerning the future (other than the all important one concerning the appearance of Messiah in his generation). SLADE You claim these prophets all functioned differently. Why? I see their function as identical! You have spoken of Ezekiel's "pantomime" and David's shirim. You see different function here while I understand this as different modes/genres by which they prophesied. Their function -- the intent of the prophesy -- is identical. THIS is the function you contradicted in your email that prompted my response. (You will notice I have not elucidated the function; this is an innate understanding in the prophet and I would like to hear your take on this singular function of the prophet.) However, there is a grace I can give since you are not a prophet [from my limited understanding] and I do not wish to embarrass you or anyone else. You see, we all have Yeshua dwelling within us, and Yeshua IS the spirit of prophesy. This prophetic nuance of the Spirit of the Holy One can often confuse a believer into thinking they are a prophet... when in fact, they're feeling just what everyone else experiences... a nonverbal response to this prophetic "nuance." -- slade -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/7/2005 5:10:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: LOL -- I gotta admit. John "surgically altered" LOL I'm still laughing maybe a red beer or two before you write that second paragraph. I did ask David what would be an acceptable test for his claim. Still waiting for an answer. Not a big deal to me, however. I have seen a number of prophets - they are numerous in the pentecostal tradition. Absolutely none of them were consisted correct in their several prophecies -- some were surprisingly accuratewhile others missed the mark entirely. Most "prophetic words" (actually, all such utterances I have heard over the years) given in a church settings are general words of praise or warning -- nothing specific. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/7/2005 2:54:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Those are the JERKS that need to be stoned, wiped from the message boards, and surgically altered to never speak or write again. LOL -- I gotta admit. John "surgically altered" LOL
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
-Original Message- From: David Miller Sent: Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 10.00 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement *slade snipped a bunch to talk about later* DAVID M I believe that a prophet who speaks in the name of the Lord must be error free in the messages that he declares to be a word from the Lord. A man or woman who commits error in such a message is a false prophet. Nevertheless, prophets do not always speak in this way. Prophets do not cease to be men or women who no longer need to study, so the idea that they are always right in their opinions or exegesis of Scriptures is not true. I might note also that some prophets do not even study the Scriptures. There are many different types of prophets, both in OT and NT times. The prophets Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and John the Baptist all functioned differently. David ministered prophetically primarily through song. Ezekiel through pantomine. Moses through leadership and mighty miracles. John the Baptist without either miracle or many great prophetic statements concerning the future (other than the all important one concerning the appearance of Messiah in his generation). SLADE In the first paragraph, you qualify a message given "as the word from the LORD" must be error free. This is true. You then state prophets do not always speak in this way. Lastly, you say that prophets are men who err. Ok. I can agree to a point because even Elijah needed assurance from the LORD that he was not the last of his kind (you know the story about the 4000 who never bent a knee). Here's where the problem arises. I know many who claim the prophetic gift, but never proclaim anything. I hear the declaration "I AM A PROPHET" as if they deserve my reverence, yet they never speak "a word from the LORD." It's easy to be error free if you never give "a word." The, of course you have the complete jag-off who throws the "a word from the lord" around like it's candy at a parade and the consistency of their error is shocking! Those are the JERKS that need to be stoned, wiped from the message boards, and surgically altered to never speak or write again. So which are you!?! The never give a word type, an occasional word type, or the always a word type? Are you willing to test the mettle of your prophetic gift? Second paragraph later. -- slade -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Apostolic Pentacostal Seventh day Holiness brotherhood, yada, yada? Been trying to remember myself. I wish I could remember. And no folks, I'm not picking on anyone here if it seems like it. Those people were very weird! Jeff - Original Message - From: "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 10:08 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement No, they didn't call themselves Messianic. I was mistaken in my earlier post of thinking they may have. I know now what they called themselves...did a little research. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jeff Powers Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 17.26 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay, If I remember correctly, they didn't call themselves Messianic. I can't remamber what they did call themselves though. On the other hand, I don't care either! I'm just glad I only spent a week with the wackos! It was more than enough for me. Jeff -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
No, they didn't call themselves Messianic. I was mistaken in my earlier post of thinking they may have. I know now what they called themselves...did a little research. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jeff Powers Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 17.26 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay, If I remember correctly, they didn't call themselves Messianic. I can't remamber what they did call themselves though. On the other hand, I don't care either! I'm just glad I only spent a week with the wackos! It was more than enough for me. Jeff -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Slade wrote: > This means, "What!?" I am shocked that you > would make such a claim! Do you believe > everyone who doesn't share your beliefs are > dangerous... or is it just the JEWS?? I think you very much have misunderstood my post. I testified that the Messianic movement is of God, but qualified that with the observation that like all movements of God, there are some dangerous elements within it. These would be those who function like the Judaizers in Paul's day. Kay asked for clarification on that statement and this is the context in which my post ought to be understood. Slade wrote: > Most people I know do not understand how the Prophetic > Office is/was used by God. Most people who claim to be > prophets really aren't, but they certainly wish they were... > as if the Office affords them special privilege or elevates them > above "Ordinary Mortal." I certainly hope this is not you. I have no desire to be a prophet. If I desired anything, it would be to be an apostle of Christ because they are my heroes. The truth is that I have no more chosen to be a prophet than I have chosen to be born a male. Unfortunately, I have acted in the past very much like Jonah in fleeing the call. This is one reason why I am least among God's prophets, probably not fit to be called one, and a speck in the ocean of time. Slade wrote: > When I look at the prophets in Scripture and when > I look at the function of the prophet as outlined by > Moshe, your statement against Messianics proves > that you either do not understand your office and > have failed, or you are a false prophet, or what's > outlined in the next paragraph applies. Or, perhaps I am a poor communciator and you have misunderstood what I was trying to communicate in that post. :-) Slade wrote: > I prefer to believe in your misunderstanding of > the office, but I also realize the possibility of the > second. ... many believe the Prophet does not > need to be error free now). Is this your belief? > The "New Testament" Prophet function differently > than the "Old Testament" prophet? I believe that a prophet who speaks in the name of the Lord must be error free in the messages that he declares to be a word from the Lord. A man or woman who commits error in such a message is a false prophet. Nevertheless, prophets do not always speak in this way. Prophets do not cease to be men or women who no longer need to study, so the idea that they are always right in their opinions or exegesis of Scriptures is not true. I might note also that some prophets do not even study the Scriptures. There are many different types of prophets, both in OT and NT times. The prophets Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and John the Baptist all functioned differently. David ministered prophetically primarily through song. Ezekiel through pantomine. Moses through leadership and mighty miracles. John the Baptist without either miracle or many great prophetic statements concerning the future (other than the all important one concerning the appearance of Messiah in his generation). I hope these comments help us communicate better. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
My wife thinks I was cruel in this post. Let me qualify...> What a terrible thing to say This means, "What!?" I am shocked that you would make such a claim! Do you believe everyone who doesn't share your beliefs are dangerous... or is it just the JEWS?? > In this post, you have proven the> falseness of your prophetic claim. Most people I know do not understand how the Prophetic Office is/was used by God. Most people who claim to be prophets really aren't, but they certainly wish they were... as if the Office affords them special privilege or elevates them above "Ordinary Mortal." I certainly hope this is not you. When I look at the prophets in Scripture and when I look at the function of the prophet as outlined by Moshe, your statement against Messianics proves that you either do not understand your office and have failed, or you are a false prophet, or what's outlined in the next paragraph applies. I prefer to believe in your misunderstanding of the office, but I also realize the possibility of the second. The difference in opinion [regarding the Prophetic Office in the Older Testament vs. the Newer Testament] may be such that we may be "speaking through" a perceived change in the office. What I mean is that many people believe that much changed because of Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection... and it's possible that they also believe the Prophetic Office and how it functions in the Qahal/Ekklesia is different now (for instance, many believe the Prophet does not need to be error free now). Is this your belief? The "New Testament" Prophet function differently than the "Old Testament" prophet? -- slade -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David MillerSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.20To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementSlade wrote:> What a terrible thing to say. In this post, you> have proven the falseness of your prophetic claim.Why? I hope you don't think prophets are perfect in knowledge. I hope youdon't think prophets are perfect communicators.Peace be with you.David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/4/2005 2:41:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey JD: I might need some counseling...or another beer! Go with the beer. Here for ya, John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Maybe I've blocked that from my mind... It's probably a symptom of cult-shock! Hey JD: I might need some counseling...or another beer! Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jeff Powers Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 17.26 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay, If I remember correctly, they didn't call themselves Messianic. I can't remamber what they did call themselves though. On the other hand, I don't care either! I'm just glad I only spent a week with the wackos! It was more than enough for me. Jeff > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Slade Henson > Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.21 > To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org > Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement > > > I would say they claimed to be Messianic. However, I would not consider > them > Messianic. They are like no Messianics I know now or have known in the > past. > They were of their own breed, I guess. > > The control issues, the manipulations, the twisting words and Scripture, > sometimes outright lies, the self-righteous stuff, the way others were > treated, and definitely piety. That's all I can think of off the top of my > head right now. > > Kay > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller > Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.14 > To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement > > > Kay wrote: >> I experienced one cultish group within >> the past couple of years. > > Was it a Messianic cult? > > What made it cult-like? > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know > how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know > how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Kay, If I remember correctly, they didn't call themselves Messianic. I can't remamber what they did call themselves though. On the other hand, I don't care either! I'm just glad I only spent a week with the wackos! It was more than enough for me. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.21 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I would say they claimed to be Messianic. However, I would not consider them Messianic. They are like no Messianics I know now or have known in the past. They were of their own breed, I guess. The control issues, the manipulations, the twisting words and Scripture, sometimes outright lies, the self-righteous stuff, the way others were treated, and definitely piety. That's all I can think of off the top of my head right now. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.14 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay wrote: I experienced one cultish group within the past couple of years. Was it a Messianic cult? What made it cult-like? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Was he jumpin' G's brother? - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: January 04, 2005 14:14 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement > Kay wrote: > > just did a little research and found both > > of them were Catholics. > > Do you mean Roman Catholics? Careful. While Roman Catholics might want to > claim a pedigree to the first apostles and therefore claim these men > (Tertullian and Athanasius) as being fathers in Roman Catholicism, the truth > is that Roman Catholicism did not begin until the 11th century. Prior to > 1054, there were no separate denominations in Christianity. The Roman > Catholic Church was the first denomination. The reason that few of us have > this sense of history is because our educational system has descended from > Roman Catholicism and is therefore biased by their slant on history. If you > consult with historians from Eastern Orthodoxy, they claim that they > represent the oldest church. The fact is that Roman Catholicism did not > exist as we know it until the final split they made from the Eastern > churches when they claimed that their Bishop in Rome had supremacy over all > the churches of the world. > > Furthermore, both Tertullian and Athanasius lived and belonged primarily to > churches in Africa. While they both visited Rome at times during their > lives, they were not very much part of the church there. Athanasius was in > Rome when he was forced into exile from the church, and returned to Egypt > when his banishment was lifted. When he was banished several times again, > he sought refuge in Northern Egypt or the outskirts of Alexandria, not Rome. > Clearly he was not a close adherent to the church powers of Rome, though he > was least rejected by the rulers there at the time. > > Kay wrote: > > The dude who also came up with the pre-trib > > rapture theory was also a Catholic a Jesuit priest > > who claimed to be a Jew.) I can't remember his name. > > This guys name was Manuel Lacunza, who wrote under the name, Juan Josafat > Ben-Ezra, but I think it inappropriate to identify him as the originator of > the pre-trib rapture. You might want to read the article at the following > website: > http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/macpherson-dave_dd_04.html > > The article referenced above indicates that Lacunza never taught the > pre-trib rapture. > > I think John Darby gets the real credit, though I realize others want to > credit Margaret MacDonald or Edward Irving. They were all three associated > with each other at some point, but Darby really articulated and put forth > the viewpoint as a theologian. This happened around 1830, the same time > Joseph Smith was introducing new Scriptures and a new church here in the > United States. :-) > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Kay wrote: > just did a little research and found both > of them were Catholics. Do you mean Roman Catholics? Careful. While Roman Catholics might want to claim a pedigree to the first apostles and therefore claim these men (Tertullian and Athanasius) as being fathers in Roman Catholicism, the truth is that Roman Catholicism did not begin until the 11th century. Prior to 1054, there were no separate denominations in Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church was the first denomination. The reason that few of us have this sense of history is because our educational system has descended from Roman Catholicism and is therefore biased by their slant on history. If you consult with historians from Eastern Orthodoxy, they claim that they represent the oldest church. The fact is that Roman Catholicism did not exist as we know it until the final split they made from the Eastern churches when they claimed that their Bishop in Rome had supremacy over all the churches of the world. Furthermore, both Tertullian and Athanasius lived and belonged primarily to churches in Africa. While they both visited Rome at times during their lives, they were not very much part of the church there. Athanasius was in Rome when he was forced into exile from the church, and returned to Egypt when his banishment was lifted. When he was banished several times again, he sought refuge in Northern Egypt or the outskirts of Alexandria, not Rome. Clearly he was not a close adherent to the church powers of Rome, though he was least rejected by the rulers there at the time. Kay wrote: > The dude who also came up with the pre-trib > rapture theory was also a Catholic a Jesuit priest > who claimed to be a Jew.) I can't remember his name. This guys name was Manuel Lacunza, who wrote under the name, Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra, but I think it inappropriate to identify him as the originator of the pre-trib rapture. You might want to read the article at the following website: http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/macpherson-dave_dd_04.html The article referenced above indicates that Lacunza never taught the pre-trib rapture. I think John Darby gets the real credit, though I realize others want to credit Margaret MacDonald or Edward Irving. They were all three associated with each other at some point, but Darby really articulated and put forth the viewpoint as a theologian. This happened around 1830, the same time Joseph Smith was introducing new Scriptures and a new church here in the United States. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
ShieldsFamily wrote: Keep in mind that just because something is not a “salvation issue” does not mean it is unimportant. Everything we allow into our lives is important, as it makes us who we are. The prudent walk on the side of caution, realizing we have a sneaky and powerful enemy. We should walk humbly aware of our own weaknesses. We should be single minded in our pursuit of holiness. We can still live a joyful and exuberant life at the same time. Izzy Amen to all the above. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Well, I re-posted saying I had a second thought. I've thought more about it and don't remember one time they called themselves Messianic. I think I as mistaken. I think there were some "Messianic beliefs" in their system of beliefs...like feasts and eating properly...but that would be about it. 7th Day believers have "Messianic Beliefs" in their system, too. K. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.44 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay wrote: > I would say they claimed to be Messianic. > However, I would not consider them > Messianic. This sounds like the kind of example I was trying to describe for you before. When I say "Messianic" or "Messianic Movement," I am talking about those who associate themselves with that label. In other words, I am talking about folks like these you encountered who claim to be Messianic. Maybe that will help you understand my past comments better. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Kay wrote: > I would say they claimed to be Messianic. > However, I would not consider them > Messianic. This sounds like the kind of example I was trying to describe for you before. When I say "Messianic" or "Messianic Movement," I am talking about those who associate themselves with that label. In other words, I am talking about folks like these you encountered who claim to be Messianic. Maybe that will help you understand my past comments better. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Yanno, on second thought, no, I don't think claimed to be Messianic. Sorry about that. My mistake. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.21 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I would say they claimed to be Messianic. However, I would not consider them Messianic. They are like no Messianics I know now or have known in the past. They were of their own breed, I guess. The control issues, the manipulations, the twisting words and Scripture, sometimes outright lies, the self-righteous stuff, the way others were treated, and definitely piety. That's all I can think of off the top of my head right now. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.14 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay wrote: > I experienced one cultish group within > the past couple of years. Was it a Messianic cult? What made it cult-like? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I would say they claimed to be Messianic. However, I would not consider them Messianic. They are like no Messianics I know now or have known in the past. They were of their own breed, I guess. The control issues, the manipulations, the twisting words and Scripture, sometimes outright lies, the self-righteous stuff, the way others were treated, and definitely piety. That's all I can think of off the top of my head right now. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.14 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay wrote: > I experienced one cultish group within > the past couple of years. Was it a Messianic cult? What made it cult-like? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Slade wrote: > What a terrible thing to say. In this post, you > have proven the falseness of your prophetic claim. Why? I hope you don't think prophets are perfect in knowledge. I hope you don't think prophets are perfect communicators. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Kay wrote: > I experienced one cultish group within > the past couple of years. Was it a Messianic cult? What made it cult-like? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
There are a whole lot more CANS. (Ask “Builder Bob”) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:10 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Sosometimes the prudent do nothing but sit in a chair in a strait jacket, too, because of all the CAN'Ts they can't do K. :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 10.00 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Keep in mind that just because something is not a “salvation issue” does not mean it is unimportant. Everything we allow into our lives is important, as it makes us who we are. The prudent walk on the side of caution, realizing we have a sneaky and powerful enemy. We should walk humbly aware of our own weaknesses. We should be single minded in our pursuit of holiness. We can still live a joyful and exuberant life at the same time. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:57 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I agree with that. I know of some who say...can't dance, can't drink, can't smoke, can't go to the movies...or you go to hell! And others who say...you better call Him by the RIGHT name...or you go to hell. I think some of it gets pretty ridiculous. I don't think those are salvation issues. I think G-d has expectations of us...the same as I have expectations of my children. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.41 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
LOL! I guess some on TT knows how that feels. (Not me!!!) J Izzy PS I think God just put a big electric charge on the arc and the poor guy grounded it. Strange fire was rebellion plain and simple. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:07 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I don't know. I guess it sucked to be him. How about Aaron's sons who brought strange fire before the Lord? Kay
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
but don't you think that if dad knows the birth is any day now that he could prepare? Judy, that statement cracks me up as I remember in October my DIL (a week overdue) having labor pains as my son removes the back door and paints the frame and saying, “Don’t you think we should wait and see if it’s REAL labor?” As they spent the night at the hospital I got to stay home and fight the mosquitoes. J Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Sosometimes the prudent do nothing but sit in a chair in a strait jacket, too, because of all the CAN'Ts they can't do K. :) -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 10.00To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Keep in mind that just because something is not a “salvation issue” does not mean it is unimportant. Everything we allow into our lives is important, as it makes us who we are. The prudent walk on the side of caution, realizing we have a sneaky and powerful enemy. We should walk humbly aware of our own weaknesses. We should be single minded in our pursuit of holiness. We can still live a joyful and exuberant life at the same time. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:57 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I agree with that. I know of some who say...can't dance, can't drink, can't smoke, can't go to the movies...or you go to hell! And others who say...you better call Him by the RIGHT name...or you go to hell. I think some of it gets pretty ridiculous. I don't think those are salvation issues. I think G-d has expectations of us...the same as I have expectations of my children. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.41To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I don't know. I guess it sucked to be him. How about Aaron's sons who brought strange fire before the Lord? Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 10.03To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement How about the guy who got struck down for reaching out to steady the ark of the covenant? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:19 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.07To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement In a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place. I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
How about the guy who got struck down for reaching out to steady the ark of the covenant? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:19 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.07 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance Muir It is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement In a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in the first place. I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Keep in mind that just because something is not a “salvation issue” does not mean it is unimportant. Everything we allow into our lives is important, as it makes us who we are. The prudent walk on the side of caution, realizing we have a sneaky and powerful enemy. We should walk humbly aware of our own weaknesses. We should be single minded in our pursuit of holiness. We can still live a joyful and exuberant life at the same time. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:57 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I agree with that. I know of some who say...can't dance, can't drink, can't smoke, can't go to the movies...or you go to hell! And others who say...you better call Him by the RIGHT name...or you go to hell. I think some of it gets pretty ridiculous. I don't think those are salvation issues. I think G-d has expectations of us...the same as I have expectations of my children. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.41 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Are you putting yourself forward as a candidate, Judy? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 08:15 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Good food for thought Kay - I know there is nothing we can do about when babies decide to make an appearance but don't you think that if dad knows the birth is any day now that he could prepare? God doesn't require of us more than we can give and there was another aspect to the Sabbath for Israel and this is the Covenant with Moses; the Sabbath was given for a sign so that man was a Covenant breaker also. It was God who said he should be stoned after the ppl had apprehended him not knowing what to do. So it appears as though he was made a public example of what not to do. Is this called "control by fear?" I've experienced rebellion first hand also and think seeing a public stoning would have had an impact. WDYT? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:43:08 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I think he very could be that nutty. We see nuttiness like that every day. It's called rebellion. We do things everyday just because our parents say no, our doctor says no, etc. Doc says...no more cantaloupe...you'll have a severe reaction and what happens? We crave cantaloupe. Mom says: Don't smoke dope, your brain will go mushy. We say...REALLY? Let's find outThe reference to the fire going is very goodhowever, the command on that is not to KINDLE a fire on the Sabbath. If he already had a fire going, it would be okay to keep it going, especially if it was cold. Scenario: It's cold and a baby was just born in the camp. It happens to be Sabbath. Dad wants to be able to keep his newborn babe warm and goes and gathers sticks. If baby isn't kept warm, he will die. I don't think God would kill dadsaving life supercedes Sabbath law. I also believe GIVING (I don't know if that's the right word I want) life supercedes. I've had several of my children born on Sabbath. That's certainly work to mebut there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop labor once it's started! Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I'm beginning to wonder just how representative TT is 'theologically'. There's a book in here somewhere. I've stopped thinking -'no, that's one person who believes THAT' - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:49 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Teachable and unreachable must be one and the same in your economy Lance because you reject everything but trinitarian orthodoxy and give no scriptural reason why. Jesus told us His Word is what will bear eternal fruit. He is our example and during His earthly ministry He didn't appear to be very open structured and theologically flexible to me.. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:37:04 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Actually, slowly once again, I'm coming to understand that what God MEANS is what you & David say he MEANS. i AM TEACHABLE, YOU KNOW. From: Judy Taylor What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:11:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I would agreeit is a sign between and Israel. I would expound on that to include those grafted in, which would include Believers. I would think the 7th Dayers are included as Believers. I agree they put quite a bit of emphasis on the Sabbath. I find it interesting that they focus so much on ONE aspect of God's holy days...they generally don't celebrate the other Holy days God gave us. I think there are "Judaizers" in all walks of Christianity. On preparing to rest one day a week...I think it should be the one day God said. He said so for a reason. I see nowhere that it was changed, except for what the men in the Catholic church changed. That was man changing, not God. I see man proclaiming ...tomorrow will be a feast unto the Lord...and God saying, Oh, no you don't, that's not any day I said...and many were killed for disobeying and worshipping a golden calf. Curse for disobedience. Too bad about your friend. I've seen several go off into lala-land as well. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 08.45To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I understand about having babies and don't know if God would consider that breaking the Sabbath (though we might). However, I don't see preparing to rest one day a week too much to ask. Jesus did say that the Sabbath was made for man and I've heard that expounded on quite often - how we need the rest and this is true. However in Exodus 31:14 where God gives the command to Moses he says "it's a sign between Him and Israel for their generations" I don't see the 7th Day Adventists included in there though. I believe they verge on cultism. I have a good friend who joined them recently and she's gotten rid of all jewelry [including her wedding rings] and suddenly everything revolves around the Sabbath for her. I love her and we still talk but we've lost the sweet fellowship around God's Word that we used to enjoy. Doctrines like these are so divisive. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:26:39 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I don't know if dad would have known when baby was going to decide to make an appearance. Even today, we give an estimated due date. I've never delivered on any of my given due dates; I've always been late. Sometimes women labor for hours...maybe mom began labor Friday afternoon and was still laboring way into the night and into the early morning hours. Some 7th Day Adventists would say that the Sabbath was given for a sign as well, and if you don't have that Sabbath keeping sign or "mark", you go to hell. Sabbath was made for man. I don't think it's called control by fear. I think it's called curse for disobedience. Sometimes the curse, or correction, has a high price, even today. Kay
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I understand about having babies and don't know if God would consider that breaking the Sabbath (though we might). However, I don't see preparing to rest one day a week too much to ask. Jesus did say that the Sabbath was made for man and I've heard that expounded on quite often - how we need the rest and this is true. However in Exodus 31:14 where God gives the command to Moses he says "it's a sign between Him and Israel for their generations" I don't see the 7th Day Adventists included in there though. I believe they verge on cultism. I have a good friend who joined them recently and she's gotten rid of all jewelry [including her wedding rings] and suddenly everything revolves around the Sabbath for her. I love her and we still talk but we've lost the sweet fellowship around God's Word that we used to enjoy. Doctrines like these are so divisive. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:26:39 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I don't know if dad would have known when baby was going to decide to make an appearance. Even today, we give an estimated due date. I've never delivered on any of my given due dates; I've always been late. Sometimes women labor for hours...maybe mom began labor Friday afternoon and was still laboring way into the night and into the early morning hours. Some 7th Day Adventists would say that the Sabbath was given for a sign as well, and if you don't have that Sabbath keeping sign or "mark", you go to hell. Sabbath was made for man. I don't think it's called control by fear. I think it's called curse for disobedience. Sometimes the curse, or correction, has a high price, even today. Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Good food for thought Kay - I know there is nothing we can do about when babies decide to make an appearance but don't you think that if dad knows the birth is any day now that he could prepare? God doesn't require of us more than we can give and there was another aspect to the Sabbath for Israel and this is the Covenant with Moses; the Sabbath was given for a sign so that man was a Covenant breaker also. It was God who said he should be stoned after the ppl had apprehended him not knowing what to do. So it appears as though he was made a public example of what not to do. Is this called "control by fear?" I've experienced rebellion first hand also and think seeing a public stoning would have had an impact. WDYT? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:43:08 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I think he very could be that nutty. We see nuttiness like that every day. It's called rebellion. We do things everyday just because our parents say no, our doctor says no, etc. Doc says...no more cantaloupe...you'll have a severe reaction and what happens? We crave cantaloupe. Mom says: Don't smoke dope, your brain will go mushy. We say...REALLY? Let's find outThe reference to the fire going is very goodhowever, the command on that is not to KINDLE a fire on the Sabbath. If he already had a fire going, it would be okay to keep it going, especially if it was cold. Scenario: It's cold and a baby was just born in the camp. It happens to be Sabbath. Dad wants to be able to keep his newborn babe warm and goes and gathers sticks. If baby isn't kept warm, he will die. I don't think God would kill dadsaving life supercedes Sabbath law. I also believe GIVING (I don't know if that's the right word I want) life supercedes. I've had several of my children born on Sabbath. That's certainly work to mebut there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop labor once it's started! Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/4/2005 4:28:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words. True -- and He meant what He said when He said we are saved by grace . JD
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I don't know if dad would have known when baby was going to decide to make an appearance. Even today, we give an estimated due date. I've never delivered on any of my given due dates; I've always been late. Sometimes women labor for hours...maybe mom began labor Friday afternoon and was still laboring way into the night and into the early morning hours. Some 7th Day Adventists would say that the Sabbath was given for a sign as well, and if you don't have that Sabbath keeping sign or "mark", you go to hell. Sabbath was made for man. I don't think it's called control by fear. I think it's called curse for disobedience. Sometimes the curse, or correction, has a high price, even today. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 08.16To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Good food for thought Kay - I know there is nothing we can do about when babies decide to make an appearance but don't you think that if dad knows the birth is any day now that he could prepare? God doesn't require of us more than we can give and there was another aspect to the Sabbath for Israel and this is the Covenant with Moses; the Sabbath was given for a sign so that man was a Covenant breaker also. It was God who said he should be stoned after the ppl had apprehended him not knowing what to do. So it appears as though he was made a public example of what not to do. Is this called "control by fear?" I've experienced rebellion first hand also and think seeing a public stoning would have had an impact. WDYT? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:43:08 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I think he very could be that nutty. We see nuttiness like that every day. It's called rebellion. We do things everyday just because our parents say no, our doctor says no, etc. Doc says...no more cantaloupe...you'll have a severe reaction and what happens? We crave cantaloupe. Mom says: Don't smoke dope, your brain will go mushy. We say...REALLY? Let's find outThe reference to the fire going is very goodhowever, the command on that is not to KINDLE a fire on the Sabbath. If he already had a fire going, it would be okay to keep it going, especially if it was cold. Scenario: It's cold and a baby was just born in the camp. It happens to be Sabbath. Dad wants to be able to keep his newborn babe warm and goes and gathers sticks. If baby isn't kept warm, he will die. I don't think God would kill dadsaving life supercedes Sabbath law. I also believe GIVING (I don't know if that's the right word I want) life supercedes. I've had several of my children born on Sabbath. That's certainly work to mebut there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop labor once it's started! Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Good food for thought Kay - I know there is nothing we can do about when babies decide to make an appearance but don't you think that if dad knows the birth is any day now that he could prepare? God doesn't require of us more than we can give and there was another aspect to the Sabbath for Israel and this is the Covenant with Moses; the Sabbath was given for a sign so that man was a Covenant breaker also. It was God who said he should be stoned after the ppl had apprehended him not knowing what to do. So it appears as though he was made a public example of what not to do. Is this called "control by fear?" I've experienced rebellion first hand also and think seeing a public stoning would have had an impact. WDYT? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:43:08 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I think he very could be that nutty. We see nuttiness like that every day. It's called rebellion. We do things everyday just because our parents say no, our doctor says no, etc. Doc says...no more cantaloupe...you'll have a severe reaction and what happens? We crave cantaloupe. Mom says: Don't smoke dope, your brain will go mushy. We say...REALLY? Let's find outThe reference to the fire going is very goodhowever, the command on that is not to KINDLE a fire on the Sabbath. If he already had a fire going, it would be okay to keep it going, especially if it was cold. Scenario: It's cold and a baby was just born in the camp. It happens to be Sabbath. Dad wants to be able to keep his newborn babe warm and goes and gathers sticks. If baby isn't kept warm, he will die. I don't think God would kill dadsaving life supercedes Sabbath law. I also believe GIVING (I don't know if that's the right word I want) life supercedes. I've had several of my children born on Sabbath. That's certainly work to mebut there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop labor once it's started! Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I experienced one cultish group within the past couple of years. On one hand, I'm grateful, because I learned alot and it's helped me first recognize and second avoid others of the same mindset. I'm also grateful because for some reason, we weren't sucked into that weirdness. I believe it's because of our firm foundation in Torah that "saved" us form the mess. It also honed my discernment and I learned to listen to that discerning quality more frequently. I wish we didn't go through it because it was a REALLY bad time in my life. Slade and I have seen things differently on obeying God for quite awhile now and it hasn't changed. If anything, understanding has become clearer and we have become free. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.43To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I hear you Kay and I do seek to obey the Royal Law through Christ. I know you and Slade see things differently right now. I don't know your testimony but can empathize if you have experienced cultish groups because I've been through that and have observed some of the same. Real under Shepherds who lead rather than drive or control are few and far between but there is a real and walking after the Spirit is not just an illusion. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:29:21 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Then why not obey His perfect Law?? If He doesn't play and He says what He meanswhen He says DON'T, why do we say...oh, that was for then but not now? If He says DO, why don't we? If He says those things, would He be setting us up to fail at something He knows we simply can't do? Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorWhat if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Teachable and unreachable must be one and the same in your economy Lance because you reject everything but trinitarian orthodoxy and give no scriptural reason why. Jesus told us His Word is what will bear eternal fruit. He is our example and during His earthly ministry He didn't appear to be very open structured and theologically flexible to me.. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:37:04 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Actually, slowly once again, I'm coming to understand that what God MEANS is what you & David say he MEANS. i AM TEACHABLE, YOU KNOW. From: Judy Taylor What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:11:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I think he very could be that nutty. We see nuttiness like that every day. It's called rebellion. We do things everyday just because our parents say no, our doctor says no, etc. Doc says...no more cantaloupe...you'll have a severe reaction and what happens? We crave cantaloupe. Mom says: Don't smoke dope, your brain will go mushy. We say...REALLY? Let's find out The reference to the fire going is very goodhowever, the command on that is not to KINDLE a fire on the Sabbath. If he already had a fire going, it would be okay to keep it going, especially if it was cold. Scenario: It's cold and a baby was just born in the camp. It happens to be Sabbath. Dad wants to be able to keep his newborn babe warm and goes and gathers sticks. If baby isn't kept warm, he will die. I don't think God would kill dadsaving life supercedes Sabbath law. I also believe GIVING (I don't know if that's the right word I want) life supercedes. I've had several of my children born on Sabbath. That's certainly work to mebut there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop labor once it's started! Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.33To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I hear you Kay and I do seek to obey the Royal Law through Christ. I know you and Slade see things differently right now. I don't know your testimony but can empathize if you have experienced cultish groups because I've been through that and have observed some of the same. Real under Shepherds who lead rather than drive or control are few and far between but there is a real and walking after the Spirit is not just an illusion. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:29:21 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Then why not obey His perfect Law?? If He doesn't play and He says what He meanswhen He says DON'T, why do we say...oh, that was for then but not now? If He says DO, why don't we? If He says those things, would He be setting us up to fail at something He knows we simply can't do? Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorWhat if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Actually, slowly once again, I'm coming to understand that what God MEANS is what you & David say he MEANS. i AM TEACHABLE, YOU KNOW. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:11:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Then why not obey His perfect Law?? If He doesn't play and He says what He meanswhen He says DON'T, why do we say...oh, that was for then but not now? If He says DO, why don't we? If He says those things, would He be setting us up to fail at something He knows we simply can't do? Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.25To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:11:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Is that wherewalk softly and carry a big stick comes from?? K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.12To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:06 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.07To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:06 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Hehehehe K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 00.58To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 5:16:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think there's a Scripture that says not to mix beer and tea...or maybe that's tradition! :) Kay You are correct, my dear. It is found in 2 Thought 10:4 next to the passage that allows for tomato juice mixer. I know it is there somewhere because of it's divine taste.John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I agree with that. I know of some who say...can't dance, can't drink, can't smoke, can't go to the movies...or you go to hell! And others who say...you better call Him by the RIGHT name...or you go to hell. I think some of it gets pretty ridiculous. I don't think those are salvation issues. I think G-d has expectations of us...the same as I have expectations of my children. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.41To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 06:32 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 05.36To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement It is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 03, 2005 19:32 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 05.36To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement It is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 03, 2005 19:32 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
One that occupies a 'space' outside of the 'space' you occupy. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 05:47 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement What kind of species is an "orthodox trinitarian?" On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 05:36:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: It is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 03, 2005 19:32 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
What kind of species is an "orthodox trinitarian?" On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 05:36:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: It is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 03, 2005 19:32 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
It is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 03, 2005 19:32 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
What a terrible thing to say. In this post, you have proven the falseness of your prophetic claim. -- slade -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 15.35 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay wrote: > I'm also waiting for your answer as to what > aspects of the Messianic Movement you feel > may be dangerous are, David. The dangerous aspects are those within the movement who emphasize shadows over reality. For example, those who think that keeping Torah commandments that deal with shadows is the only way to be pleasing to God. This would include the practice of killing a lamb in addition to faith in Yeshua, of observing the moedim in addition to remembering that to which they point, of sabbath observance in addition to entering the kingdom of God, of circumcision of the flesh in addition to circumcision of the heart, etc. Also, those who insist upon using Hebrew names, of denouncing the Trinity, etc. Generally, the Judaizing elements are causes of concern. The letter kills but the spirit gives life. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/3/2005 6:53:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dang me !! Let's try Gentile Legalist. I really need to proof read more carefully. but I get excited, start typing, and BAM I have fathered another misspelling. John Without a mother??? Izzy A. I see your point, now. Thanks. "Father," even when applied to the heavenly Whoever, is just a play on words like the one I used above. Whoa, you got me. So who is that masked man and the one who sits at His right hand -- ops, maybe "right hand," and "sits" are simply manifestations of .. whoever those two or three or four or five persons/people/whatchamacallits. What if i called Him (or her or ?) the Eternal Whatchamacallits and we can plug in god, father, son, h.g., lord, savior, and the like -- you know, words that help define the Great Whatchmacallits (notice the plurality of being) but have nothing at all to do with his/her nature, essence, existence or purpose. Actually, I think I will stay with Almighty and Eternal Father it sounds so much more reasonable than Whatchamacallits. John the bishop of whatever
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/3/2005 5:16:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think there's a Scripture that says not to mix beer and tea...or maybe that's tradition! :) Kay You are correct, my dear. It is found in 2 Thought 10:4 next to the passage that allows for tomato juice mixer. I know it is there somewhere because of it's divine taste. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 7:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement In a message dated 1/3/2005 4:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Bentile Legalist? What's that mean? Bent people? Kay :) Dang me !! Let's try Gentile Legalist. I really need to proof read more carefully. but I get excited, start typing, and BAM I have fathered another misspelling. John Without a mother??? Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/3/2005 4:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Bentile Legalist? What's that mean? Bent people? Kay :) Dang me !! Let's try Gentile Legalist. I really need to proof read more carefully. but I get excited, start typing, and BAM I have fathered another misspelling. John == We bin meenin' to talk to you about that.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Thanks, Judy. Hmmm...just did a little research and found both of them were Catholics. Small wonder. The dude who also came up with the pre-trib rapture theory was also a Catholic a Jesuit priest who claimed to be a Jew.) I can't remember his name. Very interesting indeed. Again, thanks, Judy. Made me more solid in my beliefs. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 20.21To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement In a message dated 1/3/2005 4:35:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay Tertullian was the one who came up with the Trinity and Athanasius later came up with the "eternal Son of God concept" Neither are in either Old or New Testaments and neither were taught by the Apostles. I think you've hit the nail on the head so to speak Kay because God did not instruct an elite group to tell us what the scriptures mean. We are individually responsible to study to show ourselves approved unto God as a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Makes sense to me also... judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/3/2005 4:35:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay Tertullian was the one who came up with the Trinity and Athanasius later came up with the "eternal Son of God concept" Neither are in either Old or New Testaments and neither were taught by the Apostles. I think you've hit the nail on the head so to speak Kay because God did not instruct an elite group to tell us what the scriptures mean. We are individually responsible to study to show ourselves approved unto God as a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Makes sense to me also... judyt
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I think there's a Scripture that says not to mix beer and tea...or maybe that's tradition! :) Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 20.08To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementActually, I agree and have made this very point in the past. But here, I'm trying to make a very different point so I went with an unchallenged error, presenting an illustrative parallel, setting up a of contrast of paradigms and forcing the reader to agree with what can only be called absolute proof. Tea anyone?John Boy
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I thought you were purposely being funny... K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 20.00To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 4:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Bentile Legalist? What's that mean? Bent people? Kay :)Dang me !! Let's try Gentile Legalist. I really need to proof read more carefully. but I get excited, start typing, and BAM I have fathered another misspelling. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/3/2005 4:35:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement In a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in the first place. I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John Actually, I agree and have made this very point in the past. But here, I'm trying to make a very different point so I went with an unchallenged error, presenting an illustrative parallel, setting up a of contrast of paradigms and forcing the reader to agree with what can only be called absolute proof. Tea anyone? John Boy
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/3/2005 4:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Bentile Legalist? What's that mean? Bent people? Kay :) Dang me !! Let's try Gentile Legalist. I really need to proof read more carefully. but I get excited, start typing, and BAM I have fathered another misspelling. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
The Bentile Legalist? What's that mean? Bent people? Kay :) -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.18To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 12:37:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The dangerous aspects are those within the movement who emphasize shadows over reality. For example, those who think that keeping Torah commandmentsthat deal with shadows is the only way to be pleasing to God. the Gentile brethren often stress commandment keeping as the avenue to righteousness and salvation -- a very popular opinion This would include the practice of killing a lamb in addition to faith in Yeshua, of observing the moedim in addition to remembering that to which they point, of sabbath observance in addition to entering the kingdom of God, of circumcision of the flesh in addition to circumcision of the heart, etc. Also, those who insist upon using Hebrew names, of denouncing the Trinity, etc. the Gentile church will often press modern day lingo as well -- sinners prayer, Trinity, Spirit baptism with evidence of speaking in tongues, rapture, accepting Christ as your personal Savior, and the like. Generally, the Judaizing elements are causes of concern. As is their counterparts - The Bentile Legalist. The letter kills but the spirit gives lifeI am not challenging David, here, but it is interesting that nearly exact parallels can be seen in the Gentile Church. Note the bold print wording above.JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in the first place. I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/3/2005 12:37:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The dangerous aspects are those within the movement who emphasize shadows over reality. For example, those who think that keeping Torah commandments that deal with shadows is the only way to be pleasing to God. the Gentile brethren often stress commandment keeping as the avenue to righteousness and salvation -- a very popular opinion This would include the practice of killing a lamb in addition to faith in Yeshua, of observing the moedim in addition to remembering that to which they point, of sabbath observance in addition to entering the kingdom of God, of circumcision of the flesh in addition to circumcision of the heart, etc. Also, those who insist upon using Hebrew names, of denouncing the Trinity, etc. the Gentile church will often press modern day lingo as well -- sinners prayer, Trinity, Spirit baptism with evidence of speaking in tongues, rapture, accepting Christ as your personal Savior, and the like. Generally, the Judaizing elements are causes of concern. As is their counterparts - The Bentile Legalist. The letter kills but the spirit gives life I am not challenging David, here, but it is interesting that nearly exact parallels can be seen in the Gentile Church. Note the bold print wording above. JD
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I don't know of anyone who emphasizes the shadows over reality. Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean. Killing a lamb as in sacrificing a lamb?? I know of no Messianic Believer who does this. Observing the moadim...please elaborate. Observance of the Holy days are commanded, Sabbath observance is a command, as well as circumcision. Those who insist on using Hebrew names are called Sacred Name people. (We are not) Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in the first place. The Spirit gives life, true. Outward actions of a Believer will show by obeying the commands of God, to please Him, honor Him, and obey Him. There are blessings for obedience, curses for disobedience. I choose to receive the blessing rather than the curse. It does please God, He says so when He says...Be holy, because I'm Holy...this is how you be holy. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 15.35 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay wrote: > I'm also waiting for your answer as to what > aspects of the Messianic Movement you feel > may be dangerous are, David. The dangerous aspects are those within the movement who emphasize shadows over reality. For example, those who think that keeping Torah commandments that deal with shadows is the only way to be pleasing to God. This would include the practice of killing a lamb in addition to faith in Yeshua, of observing the moedim in addition to remembering that to which they point, of sabbath observance in addition to entering the kingdom of God, of circumcision of the flesh in addition to circumcision of the heart, etc. Also, those who insist upon using Hebrew names, of denouncing the Trinity, etc. Generally, the Judaizing elements are causes of concern. The letter kills but the spirit gives life. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Kay wrote: > I'm also waiting for your answer as to what > aspects of the Messianic Movement you feel > may be dangerous are, David. The dangerous aspects are those within the movement who emphasize shadows over reality. For example, those who think that keeping Torah commandments that deal with shadows is the only way to be pleasing to God. This would include the practice of killing a lamb in addition to faith in Yeshua, of observing the moedim in addition to remembering that to which they point, of sabbath observance in addition to entering the kingdom of God, of circumcision of the flesh in addition to circumcision of the heart, etc. Also, those who insist upon using Hebrew names, of denouncing the Trinity, etc. Generally, the Judaizing elements are causes of concern. The letter kills but the spirit gives life. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.