Did I miss an introduction??!!
Anyway -- the post below is spoken as well as a works salvationist can muster. Proper wedding attire is not the key to my salvation. Actually, I don't even own a suit !!
Now, on the other hand, if you reference Gal 3:26-27 and the "putting on Chris
Judy, your very style of response is that of the scornful. It is what you are about. But be that as it may.
What we believe is one thing, Judy. What we teach others is another matter altogether. James' advice is "be not many [of you] teachers." Why? Because words shared can make a d
We all know that I am the one who makes a big deal of Rom 5:12 and the part that says ".through one man sin entered the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED."
Well, thank God for Billy T . Look to point #4:
4. "He is the Lord from Heaven
Your works-oriented theology is over-heated at this point. And misinformed.
to think that the woman is not as infected as the man is nonsense. Job 25: 4 reads this wise: How then can man be righteous before God? And how can he be pure who is born of a woman?
-- Original me
What is too difficult for God? You use this very qustion to win the day. But I ask the same question of you. Indeed, Judy, if nothing is too difficult for God, then why can't God mean what He actually says concerning Jesus being from the you -know-whats of David !!!
-- Original
David writes:
John wrote:> I used to believe that man, apart from Christ,> had no choice when it came to sin.> I no longer believe that to be the case.> Man does have a choice. Adam had a choice.
Make sure you study Pelagianism very closely. You are moving close to that position. Suc
DM,
You, of course, preach personal effort all the time. "Repent or perish" is a part of your ministry. And your belief that your personal victory over sin - that you do not sin - is of the power of the Spirit is nothing more than will worhsip with a tag on it that reads "Born of the Spirit
You make some good points, DH.
What do you know fo James White's presentations -- respectful ?
He is one busy hombre, that's for sure.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> free speech has limitations. We recognize that.DAVEH: Real
Your arugment is with scripture. It is the Apsotle who proclaims "every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God...and is of the Anti-Christ" (I Jo 4:3). This is the same Apostle who writes "...the Spirit.. gives us understanding .. that we are i
Aaaa, another scripture that does not go to the discussion. The fact of the matter is this, in using that scripture I am illustrating the consideration that was the preveailing thought in Jewish thinking concerning what you call "the generational curse." That Christ was born of a woman ma
No conflict for me. Again, you are not reading posted messages -- just reacting to them. No point responding to comments that have nothing to do with what I wrote.
:-)
jd
-- Original message -- From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> No JD Billy T has not s
I am saying what John the Apostle is saying. Did I not make that clear?
Jesus was (is) God in the flesh. Philosophy did not give this to me. Neither is this from my own understanding. It is John who proclaims that one is not of God on the occasion of denial of this reality. Maybe word
What does this mean: Your ideas will change. You as a person will not change?
jd
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
So are you saying that salvation is based upon philosophy and understanding? A person must properly understand and p
Could you make a line-item response, similar to what David does. For me to respond to you, specifically, and have you write something that is not responsive allows for endless debate.
"Sinful nature" is not "sinning nature." I have a human nature that is given to sin. I can refuse to
No hate, here. The point that Bill has brought into this discussion ala Acts 2:30 , the very point David is trying to get across to Judy is what Judy denies. There is no doubt about what is being said, here.
One simply cannot understand the gopel message apart from the notion that Jesus C
And are you aware that this is not the only reason for Bill's passion. ? It is not sin to oppose a false doctrine. In fact, just the opposite is true.
Nothing innately sinful about manipulation, Judy. You have no scripture on this and will never have. The fact is this - Jesus used m
cd: Works don't get one saved because we depends on the works of another even Jesus-but we are saved for a work-so you expect to receive a payday from God without working-this from a God who promotes non- laziness? What are you teaching john?
Any "payday" given to us as a result of obedience i
Cash the check before it is too late !!!
King of sounds like "save yourself," doesn't it?
Seriously, go ahead and put it in the bank.
yf jd
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
yep--you should receive the bat from Minnesota soon--as soon as it'
The union is hypostatical, i.e., is personal; the two natures are not mixed or confounded, and it is perpetual
-- Original message -- From: "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
You are still blending the natures of Christ, Dean. The result is mixing you up. The Divinity of C
David makes some good points, here, Dean.
At some point in life, Hitler had a choice. at some point in time, Hitler was not the devil we know him to be. At some point in time, he was as innocent and impressionable as your children.
If there ever was a contrast in response to our Adami
Should I try your approach in my next counseling session?
"O. !! Glad you folks were able to make it. My understanding is that you two queers have some sort of misgiving about the perception of others concerning your sodomizing way of life. Hopefully, at the end of this session
I John 5:20 "-- Jesus is the true God."
Making a distinction between "Lord" and "God" is to misunderstand exactly what Peter was saying when he pronounced Jesus as Lord and Messiah (Acts 2:36).
Peter is saying that Christ is both God and Messiah !!!
jd
- Original Message
"..Jesus Christ came in the flesh .."
The phrase is a declaration of the divinity of Christ. If He were not God on earth, Dean, OF COURSE HE CAME IN THE FLESH. Surely you do not believe that John is stating the obvious !! I came in the flesh. You have - Judy has. No, this is a statem
Dean wrote:> > You guys are stating that Christ was no> > different than Hitler>> Not true.cd: Yes true -read John responces-he said this.
Dean -- please paste the quotes from me that cause you to say this. I am curious.
-- Original message -- From: "Dean Moo
You do understand how I and many others might think you answer rather curious. to speak one on one with different terminology than a speech offtered to a congregation of individuals (hmm congregation of INDIVIDUALS) is a surprising consideration for one who preaches with the hope
Let me add this thought: you will accomplish no lasting good with the strategy you have revealed in this post. And, you may have put your daughter in harm's way.
Your sign is so very wrong if, in fact, you are trying to bring people to Christ rather than simply exposing them for the
Two things.
1. Your manner of speech tells me what you think of me.
2. You are a dualist and I am not.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > JD wrote: > > What does this mean: Your ideas will > > change. You as a person will not
Cool. I'll add this to that 10% I keep talking about.
Turn about is fair play -- your comments to Judy have been noteworthy.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > JD wrote: > > "Sinful nature" is not "sinning nature." > > Excel
Dean - I will use this as a benchmark statement. David's post says it all. Nothing else to say. Please consider what he is telling you.
Judy you too.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Dean wrote: > > Respectfu
Hi Dean. I am not "oneness" as that term is used to define a particular theology. That the Godhead is made up of Father , Son, and their working in this world (the Spirit) is a given.
The "Godhead" is God. And what is God? The inter-personal relationship of the Father, Son and Spirit
So why is there no sin offering for children under the Old Law?
jd
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/1/2006 1:19:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?
David makes some good points, here, Dean.
I forgot why we are having this discussion !! Old age.
Here is what I am saying about works and salvation -- what gets us saved, keeps us saved.
If grace through faith apart from obedience to law "gets us save," that is all that keeps us saved.
Obedience, works, these things a
jt: You Bill are full of malarkey. Just wondering -- is malarkey brown in color.
-- Original message -- From: "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
jt: Tell me - who is in denial around here??
You are.
- Original Message -
From: Judith H Taylor
To: T
Job is not alluding to what you are trying to say JD. jt
And what is Job alluding to, Judy. How can a man be pure when born of woman? There is some kind of mystery in those words? Something there that is hard to understand? Talk is cheap, Judy. Too bad it is also eternal. If it (Job
And now that Christ has reconciled all things unto Himself -- what do we now suppose?? Further, Gal 3:26-27 speaks of us being into Christ. Jesus speaks of You in me, I in you and they in us. Kiss off dualism.
jd
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTEC
Guess again, Judy. Just because you can count to two is no evidence that "dualism" has occurred. Dualism, when applied to human nature, is not a characteristic count. That Christ is wholly God and wholly Man is not a dualism. It is a statement of who Christ Incarnate is (He is still the Inc
If you mean to imply that "deception" is always sinfully wrong, then manipulation is not deception. You use manipulation often. "We're waiting, Bill !! Where is your anser Bill? Or , is this just another example of you taking your ball (gosh, I hope this is not another reference to King Da
Bizarre theories? Your pastor and the leadership at BSF teach what is essentially being taught here by David, Bill, Lance, and others. You want Dean to believe that we are the minority, the bizarre, the weido's. when it is you (and maybe Dean) who stands alone on this poi
Judy - what is this? A post from sept , '05? You've got to be kidding !!
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judith H Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
None righteous on their own merits JD. However, those who remain in Christ are not
unrighteous. You cited Romans 16:17 earl
What does this mean -- Death ruled from Adam to Moseseven over those who had not sinned and you are willing to fight over Jesushaving such a nature.
Your scripture for this. Those between Adam and Moses did not sin.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judith
You talkin to me? Bill wrote the piece. But, since you asked -- you are the one using the term "heathen sinful nature," not me. It is a shame that you and Judy are using this phrase - it is an obvious attempt to bias the readership - since it is not a biblical term.
jd
- Ori
cd:There is not doubt that the Law failed and we needed the help of the Holy Spirit to keep the Law- But you keep saying that God wouldn't ask us to do something we cannot do!!! Care to change your mind on that one. :Looks like you already have. but it fail as a whole for many lived
Amen. Awesome point -- aaa, wait a minute -- that was me who said that.
and the point of the repost?
jd
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/1/2006 7:55:57 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John Dea
The Passover is a sin offering ?? !! Where do you get that idea?
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judith H Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
There is and the Passover lamb was for the whole household, including children. judyt
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 06:12:56 + [EMAIL PRO
Your own words contradict your theology. You admit that the language "born of a woman" are words that proclaim the human predicament. Any man born of woman shares in the predicament.
That the "generational curse" does not include the woman who gives birth, well, that is just silly, or wor
What makes you think that Jesus was in control of the timing of his own death JD? Scripture teaches that the times and seasons are in
the hands of the Father.Your scripture reference is ?? And are you saying that the knowledge of the Father is not shared with the Son? And are you saying that J
I am speaking of the nature of Christ. In Him, man and God work together as they should. Oneness, my dear. But, it you think it important to insist on otherwise, be my guest.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judith H Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Wholly good and ATST
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 07:22:08 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Bizarre theories? Your pastor and the leadership at BSF teach what is essentially being taught here by David, Bill, Lance, and others.
jt: I don't think so JD, although they have accepted some of the quotes of the church fathers
I asked these questions of Dean. Until he answers, your comments are out of order.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judith H Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
He sees faith in what JD? Faith in His Words or faith in whatever comes along?
Also you are in error - God does
Guess again, Judy. The point is YOU HAVE NO SCRIPTURE for your claim that men lived without sin from Adam to Moses ... just JudySpeak !!
You have , once again, been cuaght adding to the Word with your opinions.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judith H T
Heathens also buy houses and drive cars. If you do not have a sinful nature, Dean, then you do not need any outside help ... as in the Spirit. And if you reject the Spirit's influence (whether intentionally or not) what happens? You sin again. So that old man is still there -
Suggestion: expand this post for easy reading
So many things wrong (IMO) with this essay.
1. Re: Isa 64:6 states a circumstance I believe we all share. But I believe this because of other considerations.
2. The Abrahamic promise applies to all who believe -- Romans 4:11
David !!! Ingenious. I don't know. Seems a rather ambitious characterization concerning the creation of a two sided sign. God bless in your ministry.
jd
> > > > This sign is one of the most ingenious signs I think I have ever made for > > campus ministry. It provokes dialogue and deba
I am not sure as to your point. The quote from Lightfoot seems to make my point.
Judy's claim that the Passover is a sacrifice for the sins of Jewish children is so far off base as to be obviously errant. All the children of the heathens were reputed unclean by the Jews; and all their own ch
I do not believe in child evangelism.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
- Original Message -
From: Judith H Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/2/2006 5:56:46 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God
Where in NT scripture do you find the conversion of a single child?
A child is not lost, for starters -- so there is no need.
What child evangelism does is this -- it gives the adult church the false sense that it is taking the gospel to the world. I wouldn't mind "child conversi
See comments below
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/2/2006 12:31:10 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Was Jesus of God's Nature?
Heathens also buy houses and drive cars. If you do not have a sinful nature, Dean, then yo
Do you speak of the "rebuking ministry?"
To imagine that a chld actually knows what he/she is doing when told to "raise your hands if you want to come into your life." Every kid in the house does it.
Sorry -- that is not evangelism. This exactly why we loose most of these kids by th
You are a riot, Judy ! No one you know - not a single person you know, believes this statement:
Judy wrote:> The scriptures are not a biological treatise;> they are about Jesus Christ from Genesis> to Revelation and he only has a physical flesh> and blood body for a very short time 3 1/
Yes , and James Dobson was converted at age TWO
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > John wrote: > > I wouldn't mind "child conversions" if there was > > some kind of confirmation as they reached an > > adult age. > > I was converted at age
Yes and James Dobson was "saved" at age TWO. No point in saving that which is not lost. Again -- there is not a single case of child evangelism in the NT scriptures. I think that to be significant as relates to this discussion.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Da
Well, it is not like she droped a vowl or inverted an endign
Judy -- my time with you has shown me just how important it is to share faith with other saints for the purpose of growth and understanding. David M wrote a wonderful paragraph just a day or two ago that included this thought (
Thanks for this post. You do understand my concern? Socially speaking., the gay fellows can be most disgusting -- beyond what I care to describe. And, most in their community defend their outragious public behavior -- which was rather surprising to me when I realized this.
There is no
This is as good a brief on this matter as I have read. I thought this point was especially good But because this relationship is not semetrical either, we do not have to give into that old man
We read, I read, others and that reading I add those comments to what I already hold to be true
Once again, your scripture? I think I know which one, but my translation speak of those who "had not sinned after the order of Adam's."
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
What does this mean -- Death ruled from Adam to Moseseven over those who had no
Pat Robertson is on Fox, right now. he's an idiot !!
By the time he gets his foot out of mouth, I will be in the next life !!
jd
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 07:09:45 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Guess again, Judy. Just because you can count to two is no evidence that "dualism" has occurred. Dualism, when applied to human nature, is not a characteristic count. That Christ is wholly God and wholly Man is not a dualism.
Your choice of a racial slur for comparison causes me concern that you have perhaps been deceived into thinking that homosexuality is a racial issue, and that homosexuals are born the way the are. Do you think homosexuals need special protection from prejudice just as other minority ethnic gro
Hi Dean,
l. I do not believe the "rules" change after we are saved. I am not speaking of "initial" salvation. What gets me saved, keeps me saved. Works of law (obedience) is a RESPONSE to the Spirit's influence or obedience is no big deal, soteriologcally speaking -- if yoou know wha
Oh, I have read the passage many times, David.
Chapter 1:32 individualizes each of the sins mentioned and applies them to any who practice such "things." He is no longer speaking of homesexual behavior by the time he gets to verse 32. And, if one includes 2:1ff, there is little doubt that Pa
Yeah, Those cotton picken women. They are just too easily offended.
-- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > cd wrote: > > David what is on the other side of you banner > > and could you speak more about the Feminism > > movement? Thanks. >
cd: Yes I do Bill and I addressed this in another post to John today.
I evidently missed that one, Dean. Sorry about that. I was wondering if you also consider Zacharius and Elizabeth to have been been righteous and blameless before God. bt
Dean -- I also missed the post. Could you repost
And what is the difference between this and David's notion of perfectionism (as I call it, understanding, of course, that David means to include the Spirit.) A serious question -- not a criticism.
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is as good a bri
And it remains a mystery. I had asked DM waht he meant by the comment. No response.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> the kind of evangelism that John approves ofDAVEH: Is that a typo? Did you instead mean to say.disapproves?Davi
But don't you see that if we regard gluttony and homosexuality the same, we cannot order anyone out of our churches? Where would we be if sinners were actually allowed and even encouraged to attend? We have been to told to preach to the world. Leave them, then, in the world - not in the
In physics, duality is present when two different models actually turn out to be equivalent.
In alchemy, duality is a dynamic principle of opposing or complementary elements or spirits.
The term dualism can refer to a variety of doctrines, mainly in theology and philosophy, each involving the
In this case, an idiot is one who habitually says things in a nationally arena for which he must apologize and when asked if the apology was sincere, he says "yes but I still want the man dead." Kind of a living definition but after watching said performance, the only word bouncing around in yo
Your naivety is noted.
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/2/2006 10:02:36 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: Interesting observation
Your choice of a racial slur for comparison causes me concern that you ha
And something else. I do not think you get the picture I have in mind when I speak of some being "gender confused."
jd
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Your naivety is noted.
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.
Well, I am definitely not talking about the feminists.
You are wrong about the birth thingy. There are many who appear and act like the opposite sex and are not gay, by the way. Gender confusion does happen. Haven't you ever been fully convinced in your mind that someone was gay, only t
Those in Christ are saved. . judgment day not withstanding. those outside Christ are judged by the law -- but even their judgment is sealed in this life ("..those who do not believe are condemned already." )
I have never studied the subject of rewards in heaven . an
S, the moment of "conversion" presents one with the full ability to be sinless?
Please tell me you are kidding!!
-- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cd; To stay in perversion John will change the chemistry of the body in time but all m
At all times in this discussion, I have it in the back of my mind that what was begun in the creation of man will not be completed until our personal resurrection and as a result of the work of Christ. It is exciting to me to think that there will be a time when I have no choices.
Who spoke
I have been a little surprised at the resistance of some to the idea that God is obligated to a particular course of action. Paul speaks of being constrained by love and even goes so far as to give definition to the action of love (I Cor 13: 4-7), suggesting that if love is to prevail,
My personal view is that the First Church committed it's first organizational sin when it confused assingment of task with assingment of position.
If "apostleship" is a position, " apostolic succession" is a necessity as is all the evils associated with position, maneuverings, the usu
Overcoming is of Divine Intervention and not of personal effort. That we partner in this effort is a given --- but God recieves ALL the credit because it is His work that brings the victory. Rev 2:26 is an indicative, not an imperative !!
The correct response to these words (Rev 2:
Dean, if righteousness is by law, we have no need of a Savior !!
And where, in all this, is your concept of matuity and maturing?
jd
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 2/3/2006 12:02:21 PM
Subject: Re
In print, you are kind of a scary guy !! But I like it.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Quoting this Scripture does not mean nothing but, it comes pretty close. > > > - Original Message - > From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTE
Another thing . this argument "God will not ask of us what we cannot do" is something you need to rethink.
Have you never said "Come on , walk to Daddy" ?? Have you never received instruction (Dean, do this and then do that) that you could not [at first] do?
to imagine
Here are some thoughts that figure into our dicussion of dualism. Seems worth sharing.
In 1985 I read an excellent article called "Worship: Foundation for> Reality" by Steve Robbins, PhD, who was at that time pastor of a> Vineyard in Oxnard, California. One of the things he explained wa
Bill I can agree with yours-and Johns- presentation and of dualism in the brethren for a time. But I also feel one must allow for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to stronger levels of Holiness that will press the old man into total subjection for this is pleasing to God. Love would be the domina
All you have proven is the difference between judgment under Law and judgment under the rule of the Spirit - judgment for the disciples of Christ after the establishment of the New Law (Jere 31"31-34). Your gospel as presented in the comments below is a gospel absent grace. It is a false gosp
cd: The need for the sin offerings wasn't because the people could not do as instructed- Dean !! the offerings of bulls and goats was, indeed, for sin AS DEFINED BY THE LAW. Before the law, there was not sin (no definition for sin.) it is a way of removing the quarrel we had with God by
I must learn to make my points with less words but somewhat as effective as is this observation. To the point and thoroughly disarming. Brilliantly profound .
yf jd
-- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I'm fully aware that a case can mad
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dean, let me encourage you to continue. If you need to take a break, then that is what you must do.
I want to express my appreciation to you for the change in attitude that has been obvious, now, for the past se
There is no "new law" JD; the law is the law. Jesus gave a new commandment which the Promise of the Father (Holy Spirit)
enables us to perform whereas the ppl under the old covenant with no supernatural help had a difficult time performing. Also
the blood of bulls and goats could not cleanse the
David Miller wrote:>> Do you think homosexuals need special protection>> from prejudice just as other minority ethnic groups>> would? Are you in agreement with the legalization>> of homosexuality and adultery?John wrote:> Well, if we are going to keep them from having jobs;> if we are going to ki
Hi David. I really cannot say it any more clearly that I have done in my brief paragraph below. That Paul is speaking of the sins experienced by homosexuals appears to be the case. But, as I have said, by the time one gets to 1:32 , he will see that Paul is addressing the large community
John wrote:> But don't you see that if we regard gluttony> and homosexuality the same, we cannot> order anyone out of our churches? Where> would we be if sinners were actually allowed> and even encouraged to attend?If a person in the church professing to be a brother in Christ believed that he
comments below
-- Original message -- From: Judith H Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 12:13:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I have been a little surprised at the resistance of some to the idea that God is obligated to a particular course of acti
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