Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
http://databases.about.com/od/sqlserver/a/mssql_editions.htm SQL Server 2008 Workgroup per processor (not per core) = $3899 That's unlimited client access. Where are the UniData licensing options that really compete with that for small business? (as you pointed out U2 on a single connection pool, single user is not really going to cut it) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Sent: Sunday, 6 February 2011 10:44 AM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Hi Bill: Maybe there is a SQL Service license for 3,500. Maybe you can run U2 on a single connection pool with a single U2 user . We know that both statements are not true. The base software they purchased is 595.00 per user on SQL Server plus a multitude of other options. How much they forward to Microsoft for SQL Server I don't know. What I do know is they are using SQL version 2005. So they have limited maintenance on the database and have missed many releases, bug fixes, and security patches. And you need those on SQL Server. Because they were not running on our Web CRM and Distribution software for the last 3 years we lost maintenance and enhancement revenue, which we did not plow back into the product. So, it did have an impact. We had to fund that development internally. We spent hundreds of hours changing our interface to make it look relevant and new. We added additional options of skins. We spent countless hours improving our speed between Apache Tomcat and the client (browser). We added grid to grid drag and drop, so they can move data from one multi-value field to another. We added the ability to make different layouts of the grids such as 3 horizontal or 3 vertical. We added contextual menus to grids as well. These may not seem much but when we went in and demonstrated the software they had already seen years before, they did not recognized it. We got the oh wow factor and we closed the sale. As they say in the restaurant business: Presentation is everything. We need to learn that in the U2 world as well. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Eclipse based tool developer for U2 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 2:48 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Doug: I believe what you're saying. You ought to believe many of us who point out that we're familiar with partners and competitors who put their enterprise .NET applications for small businesses on an SQL Server machine with a single CPU license for $3,500. They run the application on an IIS server and pay nothing for connectivity because it's all part of the MS framework. Clearly this is a different scenario from you and has a serious impact on smaller businesses attempting to host their application, although it appears to have no impact on your business. Bill Doug said the following on 2/4/2011 3:49 PM: HI Bill: We are replacing a CRM and Distribution system running on Microsoft SQL Server that cost 10 times what Unidata does. The irony of this replacement is they are still running Unidata and could never get this software to running the way their current system does after 3 years. We are migrating them to the Web using our U2WebLink middleware in just 2 months. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 2:07 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Doug: Let me point out an alternative perspective. An ISV's job is to sell our applications. If we can't compete in our business marketplaces, we need to make adjustments or look at alternatives. Competition mostly means we need to offer a product that benefits our customers at a price that is usually less than our competitors. From my perspective, your statement that you pay much higher rates for Oracle and Microsoft databases doesn't apply to my experiences. In fact, a number of our competitors use Microsoft technology and have much lower deployment costs in the small business environment than we do. I'm only saying my experiences differ from yours on this point, which is critical to our business. Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ This email has been scanned
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
From: Doug Here what you do in your PHP code and really it is that easy: // Load Include and open session in Apache Tomcat: ?php require_once(java/Java.inc); [snip great example] With respect and appreciation for the solutions presented, if you have any interest in using U2 with other languages, consider that so far the solutions for python, Java, and PHP are completely different. This is why I created the standardized API mentioned earlier. A standardized API makes code in all languages look the same. This allows anyone familiar with the API to be helpful to other developers regardless of the target language. It allows anyone familiar with the API to transfer their skills quickly to another language. It abstracts out the communications tier, so that application code doesn't need to be bothered with How data is exchanged with a back-end server, it just is. And it allows us to write code which can be used for multiple MV platforms - something important to those of us who need it, and for anyone who thinks a migration could be in their future. So as we see these great examples of solutions created by individuals, generously provided here, just remember that we can (and IMO should) just have one way of doing it, in a consistent MV connectivity framework with any number of language bindings. When enough people get the itch for that elegance we can talk about what it will take to make this available for all of us to use. ( LOL We have SO many subthreads here that should all be in their own threads. This is far far from CallHTTP... ) Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP (and everything)?
I couldn't agree more Tony. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Monday, 7 February 2011 9:02 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? From: Doug Here what you do in your PHP code and really it is that easy: // Load Include and open session in Apache Tomcat: ?php require_once(java/Java.inc); [snip great example] With respect and appreciation for the solutions presented, if you have any interest in using U2 with other languages, consider that so far the solutions for python, Java, and PHP are completely different. This is why I created the standardized API mentioned earlier. A standardized API makes code in all languages look the same. This allows anyone familiar with the API to be helpful to other developers regardless of the target language. It allows anyone familiar with the API to transfer their skills quickly to another language. It abstracts out the communications tier, so that application code doesn't need to be bothered with How data is exchanged with a back-end server, it just is. And it allows us to write code which can be used for multiple MV platforms - something important to those of us who need it, and for anyone who thinks a migration could be in their future. So as we see these great examples of solutions created by individuals, generously provided here, just remember that we can (and IMO should) just have one way of doing it, in a consistent MV connectivity framework with any number of language bindings. When enough people get the itch for that elegance we can talk about what it will take to make this available for all of us to use. ( LOL We have SO many subthreads here that should all be in their own threads. This is far far from CallHTTP... ) Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ### The information transmitted in this message and attachments (if any) is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. The message may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. The intended recipient of this e-mail may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this e-mail and any attached files with the permission of IMB. ### ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
In a message dated 2/6/2011 2:02:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, 3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes: So as we see these great examples of solutions created by individuals, generously provided here, just remember that we can (and IMO should) just have one way of doing it, in a consistent MV connectivity framework with any number of language bindings. When enough people get the itch for that elegance we can talk about what it will take to make this available for all of us to use. I just don't think Tony, the store will come to you. We need a dozen more salespeople with fire in their eyes for the Pick/MV world. And I'll hire one. W ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Doug: I believe what you're saying. You ought to believe many of us who point out that we're familiar with partners and competitors who put their enterprise .NET applications for small businesses on an SQL Server machine with a single CPU license for $3,500. They run the application on an IIS server and pay nothing for connectivity because it's all part of the MS framework. Clearly this is a different scenario from you and has a serious impact on smaller businesses attempting to host their application, although it appears to have no impact on your business. Bill Doug said the following on 2/4/2011 3:49 PM: HI Bill: We are replacing a CRM and Distribution system running on Microsoft SQL Server that cost 10 times what Unidata does. The irony of this replacement is they are still running Unidata and could never get this software to running the way their current system does after 3 years. We are migrating them to the Web using our U2WebLink middleware in just 2 months. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 2:07 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Doug: Let me point out an alternative perspective. An ISV's job is to sell our applications. If we can't compete in our business marketplaces, we need to make adjustments or look at alternatives. Competition mostly means we need to offer a product that benefits our customers at a price that is usually less than our competitors. From my perspective, your statement that you pay much higher rates for Oracle and Microsoft databases doesn't apply to my experiences. In fact, a number of our competitors use Microsoft technology and have much lower deployment costs in the small business environment than we do. I'm only saying my experiences differ from yours on this point, which is critical to our business. Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Hi Bill: Maybe there is a SQL Service license for 3,500. Maybe you can run U2 on a single connection pool with a single U2 user . We know that both statements are not true. The base software they purchased is 595.00 per user on SQL Server plus a multitude of other options. How much they forward to Microsoft for SQL Server I don't know. What I do know is they are using SQL version 2005. So they have limited maintenance on the database and have missed many releases, bug fixes, and security patches. And you need those on SQL Server. Because they were not running on our Web CRM and Distribution software for the last 3 years we lost maintenance and enhancement revenue, which we did not plow back into the product. So, it did have an impact. We had to fund that development internally. We spent hundreds of hours changing our interface to make it look relevant and new. We added additional options of skins. We spent countless hours improving our speed between Apache Tomcat and the client (browser). We added grid to grid drag and drop, so they can move data from one multi-value field to another. We added the ability to make different layouts of the grids such as 3 horizontal or 3 vertical. We added contextual menus to grids as well. These may not seem much but when we went in and demonstrated the software they had already seen years before, they did not recognized it. We got the oh wow factor and we closed the sale. As they say in the restaurant business: Presentation is everything. We need to learn that in the U2 world as well. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Eclipse based tool developer for U2 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 2:48 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Doug: I believe what you're saying. You ought to believe many of us who point out that we're familiar with partners and competitors who put their enterprise .NET applications for small businesses on an SQL Server machine with a single CPU license for $3,500. They run the application on an IIS server and pay nothing for connectivity because it's all part of the MS framework. Clearly this is a different scenario from you and has a serious impact on smaller businesses attempting to host their application, although it appears to have no impact on your business. Bill Doug said the following on 2/4/2011 3:49 PM: HI Bill: We are replacing a CRM and Distribution system running on Microsoft SQL Server that cost 10 times what Unidata does. The irony of this replacement is they are still running Unidata and could never get this software to running the way their current system does after 3 years. We are migrating them to the Web using our U2WebLink middleware in just 2 months. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 2:07 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Doug: Let me point out an alternative perspective. An ISV's job is to sell our applications. If we can't compete in our business marketplaces, we need to make adjustments or look at alternatives. Competition mostly means we need to offer a product that benefits our customers at a price that is usually less than our competitors. From my perspective, your statement that you pay much higher rates for Oracle and Microsoft databases doesn't apply to my experiences. In fact, a number of our competitors use Microsoft technology and have much lower deployment costs in the small business environment than we do. I'm only saying my experiences differ from yours on this point, which is critical to our business. Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Not quite true you can create foreign key relationships that include delete/insert/update rules to cascade such operations across multiple tables and rows. From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Wols Lists Sent: 04 February 2011 01:12 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? On 02/02/11 18:57, Wols Lists wrote: The problem is, where do you put the layers. That's my beef with relational, the layer is in COMPLETELY the wrong place. This means a large chunk of information, which *belongs* in the database layer, *has* to be put into the business layer. Even the wording of relational theory makes this clear - data is stored as attributes. Attributes of what? Without an object to belong to, an attribute is meaningless, but you can't store an object in an RDBMS. To expand on this - let's say you want to store a list. Where do you store the sequence information? Bearing in mind that, as far as the real world is concerned, this is metadata ... so it DOESN'T belong mixed up in the same table as the data :-) And how do you tell a relational database that data is mutually co-dependent? That if one piece of data ceases to exist in the real world, all these other pieces will also cease to exist at the same time? Unless they're all single-valued, and fit in the same row, you can't! Unfortunately, relational theory is based on the premise that data comes already conveniently chopped up into rows and columns. Any information (data?) that links those rows and columns can't fit in the database, even if it belongs there. And it's the PB business analyst who is left trying to square the circle ... Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3420 - Release Date: 02/03/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
From: Bill Haskett When software is spread around like the spare light bulbs in our house, perhaps this should alert us that things aren't very good, and the industry needs to take a good hard look at their practices. :-) You and I have talked about this many times my friend. Frankly I don't like the way software works either. It's all client/server no matter how many tiers and no matter how modern developers try to denigrate that term in favor of MVC, MVVM, Cloud, REST, or whatever they're pushing these days. We can disagree with the status quo but my consistent position is that we should continue working within the confines of the technology that exists until something better comes along. I continue to strive to make lemonade from the lemons. Many MV people disagree with that, preferring to wait, and keep everything within BASIC until the DBMS vendors come up with some magic. While these people wait the world moves forward around and without them. Those of us who try to move forward with the rest of the world get frustrated with the stupidity and limitations of the technology imposed upon us in terms of protocols, languages, and coding paradigms, but at least we're on the field playing the game and not on the bench. I think it comes down to some well known phrases: Grant me the power to change the things I can, the serenity to accept the things I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference. If you can't be with the one you love, honey, love the one you're with. Who moved my cheese? Best, T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
From: Dan McGrath 1) By having to pay for something as elemental as language bindings... 2) How do create a language binding for U2 without several issues... Dan, I believe my notes were misunderstood. To your point #1: When I talk about someone paying for coding, I didn't mean language bindings would be a for-sale product. I thought all of the notes about this being a community project made that clear. I'm saying language bindings can be FOSS, but people shouldn't be asked to starve in the name of creating and supporting FOSS for the benefit of everyone else. To your point #2: I fully agree that properly done, language bindings should come from the company, with proper security, etc. But we all know that won't happen. So here we are into yet another decade of Pick where we can either lament about all the things that should be done by the vendors, or we can do what we can and work with the constraints. When people create language bindings for a package like cURL, they don't talk about how inherently insecure protocols are. The point is that people need to use the protocols as they are with the languages they prefer. Let's get to that point, while still working with the DBMS vendors on better pipes and better security. These are separate initiatives. Let's not let every extension to the environment be left undone by us because there are some features not implemented by them. For reference, the language binding interface that I've created exposes a single API for all MV platforms. This can be used by all languages with minor variation for syntax differences. By definition of the project, connectivity to the DBMS is abstracted within the components that implement the language-specific implementation. In other words, a given language binding itself defers DBMS connectivity to yet another layer of abstraction. This allows a single language binding to be connected to any MV database, using any available connectivity tool. This gives us permutations like: RubyUOJUniverse PHPUOJUnidata HaskelljRCSjBase HaskellUOJUniverse Eiffelmv.NETReality EiffelQMClientQM Lispmv.NETmvBase PerlQMClientQM PerlUOJUnidata SmalltalkUO.NETUniverse All of this is intended to be free and open source so that all of us have the FREEdom to fix and enhance individual bindings for the greater good. In the name of performance, any language binding can support a more direct connection to any DBMS of choice, as long as the API exposed to client code doesn't change. Consumers of these bindings can then choose to use platform-independent bindings or platform-specific bindings. Most people here don't care about Reality or mvBase, don't care about QMClient or mv.NET, and don't care about Eiffel or Smalltalk. That's fine. Once the API is defined, different groups of people can focus on their preferred interfaces. But right now absoilutely none of the above interfaces exist for any MV platform. I'm hoping we can get from nothing to something, and it's entirely possible, without everyone deferring to the DBMS companies to do everything for us. Maybe it's time for me to publish something more official on this? Regards, T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
This is one the few times, I can remember, I agree with Tony. Our job as programmers is to develop code. We write code in UniBasic, JavaScript, HTML, PHP, .Net, or whatever. We still in the end have our data stored in on of Rocket Software's databases (Unidata or Universe). We have worked hard at U2logic to remove as much of the user interface (UI) from our basic code has possible since we moved to the web 10 years ago. We tried RedBack and that worked for a time. We then wrote our own middleware called U2WebLink long before Rocket U2 dreamed of connection pools for UniObjects. Try as we might, we are unable to major changes in the direction of development or licensing of Rocket U2. Either you live with it, or you figure out how to change Rocket U2's policies, or pay much higher rates for Oracle and Microsoft to have their databases. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Lemonade Tool Makers for U2 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
I have to disagree with the claim that none of the above interfaces exist. I'm currently in conversation with someone who has achieved connectivity from PerlPHPD3 in order to have a type of web store. I'm going to be looking at this to make the mods necessary to make it Perl PHPUniverse. It uses some kind of class, I haven't seen the code yet, but why would this not be one of the above interfaces? Or perhaps I'm just not understanding what you mean. As far as dinosaurs. I think, because I'm starting to work on the history of Pick articles, that people are finding me because I'm dragging out of the closet such things as UPDATE :) Which by the way, prior to this new prospect, I had not even *heard* of for the last ten years, let alone seen. W ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
I think tho the point is the rates for oracle and sql server are not much higher. For instance a server licence for sql server is around 5000GBP per cpu, however a udt licence with 10 connection pools is around 7000GBP regardless of cpus but with the sql server you get unlimited connection pools so is much much cheaper on say 1 or 2 processor machines which would be the norm on a normal web server. Certainly the type we use to perform around 100million web impressions per month From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Sent: 04 February 2011 18:57 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? This is one the few times, I can remember, I agree with Tony. Our job as programmers is to develop code. We write code in UniBasic, JavaScript, HTML, PHP, .Net, or whatever. We still in the end have our data stored in on of Rocket Software's databases (Unidata or Universe). We have worked hard at U2logic to remove as much of the user interface (UI) from our basic code has possible since we moved to the web 10 years ago. We tried RedBack and that worked for a time. We then wrote our own middleware called U2WebLink long before Rocket U2 dreamed of connection pools for UniObjects. Try as we might, we are unable to major changes in the direction of development or licensing of Rocket U2. Either you live with it, or you figure out how to change Rocket U2's policies, or pay much higher rates for Oracle and Microsoft to have their databases. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Lemonade Tool Makers for U2 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3422 - Release Date: 02/04/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
-Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 1:32 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? From: Dan McGrath 1) By having to pay for something as elemental as language bindings... 2) How do create a language binding for U2 without several issues... Dan, I believe my notes were misunderstood. To your point #1: When I talk about someone paying for coding, I didn't mean language bindings would be a for-sale product. I thought all of the notes about this being a community project made that clear. I'm saying language bindings can be FOSS, but people shouldn't be asked to starve in the name of creating and supporting FOSS for the benefit of everyone else. [chop] Most people here don't care about Reality or mvBase, don't care about QMClient or mv.NET, and don't care about Eiffel or Smalltalk. That's fine. Once the API is defined, different groups of people can focus on their preferred interfaces. But right now absoilutely none of the above interfaces exist for any MV platform. I'm hoping we can get from nothing to something, and it's entirely possible, without everyone deferring to the DBMS companies to do everything for us. Maybe it's time for me to publish something more official on this? Regards, T Hey T, this brings up memories of some interesting communications we had many years ago regarding a standardized communication method. Do you remember the round table pow-wow at Stardust (Spectrum)? MV.Net is about the closest thing to what we discussed but it still is not a portable language binding platform. I still have that unfinished MV comm protocol RFC if you want to poke at it and dissect it. It was an ASCII protocol spec that could be used to perform the basic data IO operations along with dictionary-oriented statements. Subroutine calls were to be supported as well, but I never got that far due to a lack of interest. I guess a bare 'white paper' is too complicated? I also wrote a VB socket client example and a socket service demonstrating the protocol, which could just as easily been Unix pipes or Windows files. The MVWWW project is another cross-flavor potential project that was geared towards freeing people from a specific DBMS HTML/XML integration tool. Frankly, it was a project I started so I would be able to port off of FlashCONNECT easily at some point if the need arose. One developer submitted useful code back during the many years it's been on SourceForge so it's far from an enterprise quality project in its current state. Maybe the lack of interest is due to a lack of advertising or a due to a lack of ability to put the pieces together? PickSource has been gone for a long time now, but I'll leave that discussion for another day. Regards, Glen Batchelor IT Director/CIO/CTO All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Doug: Let me point out an alternative perspective. An ISV's job is to sell our applications. If we can't compete in our business marketplaces, we need to make adjustments or look at alternatives. Competition mostly means we need to offer a product that benefits our customers at a price that is usually less than our competitors. From my perspective, your statement that you pay much higher rates for Oracle and Microsoft databases doesn't apply to my experiences. In fact, a number of our competitors use Microsoft technology and have much lower deployment costs in the small business environment than we do. I'm only saying my experiences differ from yours on this point, which is critical to our business. Bill Doug said the following on 2/4/2011 10:57 AM: This is one the few times, I can remember, I agree with Tony. Our job as programmers is to develop code. We write code in UniBasic, JavaScript, HTML, PHP, .Net, or whatever. We still in the end have our data stored in on of Rocket Software's databases (Unidata or Universe). We have worked hard at U2logic to remove as much of the user interface (UI) from our basic code has possible since we moved to the web 10 years ago. We tried RedBack and that worked for a time. We then wrote our own middleware called U2WebLink long before Rocket U2 dreamed of connection pools for UniObjects. Try as we might, we are unable to major changes in the direction of development or licensing of Rocket U2. Either you live with it, or you figure out how to change Rocket U2's policies, or pay much higher rates for Oracle and Microsoft to have their databases. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com Lemonade Tool Makers for U2 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
We being doing PHP for several years. It took a few hours to put PHP support in middleware that uses UniObjects for Java. We use open source PHP-Java Bridge. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 12:18 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? I have to disagree with the claim that none of the above interfaces exist. I'm currently in conversation with someone who has achieved connectivity from PerlPHPD3 in order to have a type of web store. I'm going to be looking at this to make the mods necessary to make it Perl PHPUniverse. It uses some kind of class, I haven't seen the code yet, PHPbut why would this not be one of the above interfaces? Or perhaps I'm just not understanding what you mean. As far as dinosaurs. I think, because I'm starting to work on the history of Pick articles, that people are finding me because I'm dragging out of the closet such things as UPDATE :) Which by the way, prior to this new prospect, I had not even *heard* of for the last ten years, let alone seen. W ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
HI Bill: We are replacing a CRM and Distribution system running on Microsoft SQL Server that cost 10 times what Unidata does. The irony of this replacement is they are still running Unidata and could never get this software to running the way their current system does after 3 years. We are migrating them to the Web using our U2WebLink middleware in just 2 months. Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 2:07 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Doug: Let me point out an alternative perspective. An ISV's job is to sell our applications. If we can't compete in our business marketplaces, we need to make adjustments or look at alternatives. Competition mostly means we need to offer a product that benefits our customers at a price that is usually less than our competitors. From my perspective, your statement that you pay much higher rates for Oracle and Microsoft databases doesn't apply to my experiences. In fact, a number of our competitors use Microsoft technology and have much lower deployment costs in the small business environment than we do. I'm only saying my experiences differ from yours on this point, which is critical to our business. Bill ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
You go from PHP to Java to UniObjects ? Wouldn't this mean the client must have their own Java compiler as well? -Original Message- From: Doug dave...@hotmail.com To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Feb 4, 2011 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? We being doing PHP for several years. It took a few hours to put PHP support in middleware that uses UniObjects for Java. We use open source PHP-Java Bridge. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Here what you do in your PHP code and really it is that easy: // Load Include and open session in Apache Tomcat: ?php require_once(java/Java.inc); $javasession = java_session(); $request = java_context()-getHttpServletRequest(); $requestedsessionid = $request-getRequestedSessionId(); $requestsession = $request-getSession(); $requestsessionid = java_values($requestsession-getId()); // Register your session: $sharedsub = java_values($requestsession-getAttribute(XLr8SharedSub)); //Call your Subroutine: $args = $sharedsub-getArrayListForSubroutineArgs(); $args-add(param1); $args-add(param2); $args-add(param3); $results = $sharedsub-subroutine($request, 0, YourSubroutine, $args); ? Regards, Doug www.u2logic.com/php.html U2WebLink middleware for U2 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 5:57 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? You go from PHP to Java to UniObjects ? Wouldn't this mean the client must have their own Java compiler as well? -Original Message- From: Doug dave...@hotmail.com To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Feb 4, 2011 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? We being doing PHP for several years. It took a few hours to put PHP support in middleware that uses UniObjects for Java. We use open source PHP-Java Bridge. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
From: Steve Romanow Look at the number of language bindings for most db's. U2 has 2, and they are ok, but only 2. MongoDB has like 10-20. That problem is easily fixed technically. Language bindings don't need to come from the DBMS vendors. And let's face it, they aren't that creative and they don't want to invest too much unless they see tangible returns in terms of license sales. So this like other projects will have to be a community undertaking anyway, as it is with every other platform out there. I've already started this project actually, and run it by some respected community members to validate the concept. As always, the problem is that projects like this, for the good of everyone, tend to fall on the few who often can afford it the least. I'm going to use I and me below, but this applies to anyone in this market who does free development as a community service. There are a lot of us here. I create things like language bindings because I think it's cool and because it will help our market. In the mean time there are people fearing for loss of their jobs because their platform of choice is too obscure and missing language bindings (for example) that are common everywhere else. Demand/motivation and supply/desire in this market must learn to meet in the middle. I know if I solicit donations so that I can pay my mortgage while providing you (collectively) with something that will increase the value of your platform, I'll be shunned for trying to sell yet another product (what a concept *sigh*). The public outcry will be deafening but it should be FREE, implying of course that someone else should do the work for free for everyone's benefit, like it is (supposedly) in the rest of the world. With no motivation, this project that has been in the queue for about two years, will remain on the bottom of the TODO list, and may never get finished. (Personal note: And for anyone who thinks I only do things for-fee, look for my name at Codeplex, Sourceforge, github, and elsewhere. I do contribute to FOSS, and I contribute freeware to this market as well. But when my free time translates to someone else's profitability or continued employment, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for something in return. Generous does not equal stupid.) But if neither I nor anyone else does this (for free or fee), the net result will be that some years later people will still be lamenting in forums that such things don't exist and that it should all come from the DBMS vendors. Nothing will change. I've been saying that for years and here we are - nothing has changed. That fundamental mindset is really what cripples this market. That's also what doesn't change. It's not a lack of communication tools, language bindings, admin utilities, or other things people mention occasionally. If people attach value to things they say are valuable to them, this market may actually move forward a little. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
As ever well said Tony However I do think the DBMS vendor needs to take some responsibility, the reason why mongo DB has so many language bindings (i am a big fan of mongo btw) is because the dbms supplier has provided many resources and open code itself to the market. Who on this list would know where to start writing language bindings into u2 - how much help would rocket give to the community - and what licensing restrictions will we be burdened with if we did it maybe this is something for the better and better group ?? From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 03 February 2011 08:34 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? From: Steve Romanow Look at the number of language bindings for most db's. U2 has 2, and they are ok, but only 2. MongoDB has like 10-20. That problem is easily fixed technically. Language bindings don't need to come from the DBMS vendors. And let's face it, they aren't that creative and they don't want to invest too much unless they see tangible returns in terms of license sales. So this like other projects will have to be a community undertaking anyway, as it is with every other platform out there. I've already started this project actually, and run it by some respected community members to validate the concept. As always, the problem is that projects like this, for the good of everyone, tend to fall on the few who often can afford it the least. I'm going to use I and me below, but this applies to anyone in this market who does free development as a community service. There are a lot of us here. I create things like language bindings because I think it's cool and because it will help our market. In the mean time there are people fearing for loss of their jobs because their platform of choice is too obscure and missing language bindings (for example) that are common everywhere else. Demand/motivation and supply/desire in this market must learn to meet in the middle. I know if I solicit donations so that I can pay my mortgage while providing you (collectively) with something that will increase the value of your platform, I'll be shunned for trying to sell yet another product (what a concept *sigh*). The public outcry will be deafening but it should be FREE, implying of course that someone else should do the work for free for everyone's benefit, like it is (supposedly) in the rest of the world. With no motivation, this project that has been in the queue for about two years, will remain on the bottom of the TODO list, and may never get finished. (Personal note: And for anyone who thinks I only do things for-fee, look for my name at Codeplex, Sourceforge, github, and elsewhere. I do contribute to FOSS, and I contribute freeware to this market as well. But when my free time translates to someone else's profitability or continued employment, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for something in return. Generous does not equal stupid.) But if neither I nor anyone else does this (for free or fee), the net result will be that some years later people will still be lamenting in forums that such things don't exist and that it should all come from the DBMS vendors. Nothing will change. I've been saying that for years and here we are - nothing has changed. That fundamental mindset is really what cripples this market. That's also what doesn't change. It's not a lack of communication tools, language bindings, admin utilities, or other things people mention occasionally. If people attach value to things they say are valuable to them, this market may actually move forward a little. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3418 - Release Date: 02/02/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
I doubt a visual tool will ever be faster than text for problems of any complexity. If you have a lot of boilerplate code you either aren't coding very well or your programming language needs to evolve. Not that that helps if you have to deal with 300,000 lines of somebody elses code in some backwards ancient language. A lot of code could already be done with AI techniques, and is a hobby of mine, assuming you know what you want. My experience though is that programmers can find the solutions you need instead of what you asked for. I hate proprietary software because of license issues. The cost isn't near as much an issue as figuring out licensing, poor documentation, and poor support. I don't want to spend days on the phone with some hotshot kid that knows diddly but keeps giving attitude. Thanks, Michael McGlothlin Sent from my iPad On Feb 2, 2011, at 10:15 PM, Dan McGrath dmc...@imb.com.au wrote: That's a false argument. They have been pandering that line ever since programming started as a profession. After all, wasn't that COBOL was meant to do? The business can do it! Programmers are NOT people who merely read/write code. Programmers are problem solvers. It will also be a speciality. At least until (if ever) we have a suitable AI and in that case, say good bye to almost every job and say hello to the world of Wall-E. As to being one of those people, while I may not have 40+ years experience, I've done everything from x86 ASM to .NET. What I appreciate are tools which can help abstract away pointless boilerplate code, reduce typing (Intellipoint), increase maintainability, scalability, etc. I want to concentrate on the business logic, not work out how I have to redesign solutions because the DB licence structure is restrictive (and excessively prohibitive in the age of the web). -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 3:48 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Be careful what you wish for. I didn't start out as a programmer, my degree is in Electronics Engineering, my early career was designing, building, and repairing many of the early computer systems. As time went on I had to change what I was doing because with throw away computer parts you no longer need a person that can tell you what is inside of the box all you need is someone that can replace it. The same thing is happening in the software business. With all of the new point and click tools you will eventually no longer need someone that can actually read code. Why do you think all of the software jobs are being outsourced. A person that needs to read code is no longer needed. As soon as they can figure out how to make the tools build logic into it, you're gone. It's not that far in the future. Now if you are one of the people that could never read the code or make heads or tails of business logic I can see why you would want the stuff that does it for you, but I don't think you are. Jerry On 2/2/2011 9:42 PM, Dan McGrath wrote: There are people who work on/drive cars much older than that. Yes, they still work, are functional and can sometimes look amazing. When it comes to utility though, they rarely match the total feature set available on the newer cars. Side Passenger Airbags, smoother rides, 5 star safety ratings, air conditioning... Point being, just because something is old and still in use, doesn't mean it is the best solution either technically or productively wise. It can have its place, but not every place. Unless of course they continue to evolve it, not just keep it running. I love MV databases and the unique opportunities it presents. It also has its issues that have been solved for a long time in 'the newest fashion fad' for which the MV databases desperately need to catch up with. Well, that is if they really want to increase the development/market share of the product, as opposed to merely 'supporting' current ISV solutions just enough to stop people absolutely needing to migrate away. * If I had anything remotely as useful/polished as Visual Studio to develop my life would be bliss. ** Development toolset in general is severely lacking * Licence model is frustration+ if you stray away from Telnet sessions ** It's so open to interpretation its ridiculous -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 2:09 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? There are people on this list that have been working with this database for 40 years or more, can you say that about the products you are so hyped up on. This database/environment/platform has outlived all other databases. It has outlived it's creators
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Tony I think you're missing something here if I may be so BOLD, since I'm never ever bold... ok anyway to be serious In the history of our community, there have been people who developed a product, created a market for it, that was evidently so interesting to one of the hardware/os vendors, that they got bought up. It's true. So I wouldn't say that it's not possible to write something NOT from an os vendor, and yet be a marketable *tool* (not business application). I believe, I've encountered several tools and systems programs that were third-party add-ons. And then I blink and suddenly... its part of Adds or whoever. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
That is part of the business environment though. Apple bought CUPS, Bottomline bought Optio. Oracle bought mysql, java, and openoffice. The only real protection is know your licensing, and be prepared to replace any part of your stack if the application functionality, usage terms, or support costs get too onerous. Since I am not a tool vendor, but a tool user the only real allegiance I have is to my employer and myself. I can see how it can be tough to pay a mortgage selling tools. So I wouldn't say that it's not possible to write something NOT from an os vendor, and yet be a marketable *tool* (not business application). I believe, I've encountered several tools and systems programs that were third-party add-ons. And then I blink and suddenly... its part of Adds or whoever. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
The problem as I see it Tony is twofold. 1) By having to pay for something as elemental as language bindings, you are effectively limiting U2 to already established companies. Why would a start-up pay to experiment with U2 when there are better supported *free* development stacks with larger communities? It doesn't make sense. That's why U2 is limited and won't grow beyond the small community that already uses it. 2) Is it really that easily fixed without Rocket? How do create a language binding for U2 without several issues. Firstly, UniObjects is a bad interface on a security level (really, if I need to call a subroutine, the port allows them to run ECL commands as well? Is this 1980?), so building a binding on top of that is a horrible idea if you intend it to be widespread. So if not UniObjects, what? Native phantoms cannot fork so we cannot have an effective service running without an external OS dependent multiplexer in between. Yes, I can see people be lured by a DB that requires you to not only set it up, but also another service separated (and downloaded separated) just to use their language of choice when MySQL and brethren are supported out of the box. It isn't a matter of what you *can* do, it is how easily and effective you can do it compared to the other available stacks. When I develop in my free time where I don't have access to work's systems, why would I bother with U2 where I have to build not only the tool chain myself, but also the language bindings (or pay for them) when I can fire up CakePHP + MySQL where all already exists, is well documented, large support communities and it is easy to find other developers already skilled in it. Don't get me wrong though, I completely respect that you cannot always offer the toil of hours for free. It shouldn't be an issue with basic development tools though, why should we, as a community, build the toolset for a vendor to ultimately profit from? That's where Rocket's responsibility comes in. Their product, their prerogative as to whether they simply support the existing status quo or actively enable new players to enter the and expand the market space. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 7:34 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? From: Steve Romanow Look at the number of language bindings for most db's. U2 has 2, and they are ok, but only 2. MongoDB has like 10-20. That problem is easily fixed technically. Language bindings don't need to come from the DBMS vendors. And let's face it, they aren't that creative and they don't want to invest too much unless they see tangible returns in terms of license sales. So this like other projects will have to be a community undertaking anyway, as it is with every other platform out there. I've already started this project actually, and run it by some respected community members to validate the concept. As always, the problem is that projects like this, for the good of everyone, tend to fall on the few who often can afford it the least. I'm going to use I and me below, but this applies to anyone in this market who does free development as a community service. There are a lot of us here. I create things like language bindings because I think it's cool and because it will help our market. In the mean time there are people fearing for loss of their jobs because their platform of choice is too obscure and missing language bindings (for example) that are common everywhere else. Demand/motivation and supply/desire in this market must learn to meet in the middle. I know if I solicit donations so that I can pay my mortgage while providing you (collectively) with something that will increase the value of your platform, I'll be shunned for trying to sell yet another product (what a concept *sigh*). The public outcry will be deafening but it should be FREE, implying of course that someone else should do the work for free for everyone's benefit, like it is (supposedly) in the rest of the world. With no motivation, this project that has been in the queue for about two years, will remain on the bottom of the TODO list, and may never get finished. (Personal note: And for anyone who thinks I only do things for-fee, look for my name at Codeplex, Sourceforge, github, and elsewhere. I do contribute to FOSS, and I contribute freeware to this market as well. But when my free time translates to someone else's profitability or continued employment, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for something in return. Generous does not equal stupid.) But if neither I nor anyone else does this (for free or fee), the net result will be that some years later people will still be lamenting in forums that such things don't exist and that it should all come from the DBMS vendors. Nothing will change. I've been saying that for years
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
From: Wol The problem is, where do you put the layers. That's my beef with relational, the layer is in COMPLETELY the wrong place. This means a large chunk of information, which *belongs* in the database layer, *has* to be put into the business layer. That inspired another blog. :) Multi-tier coding patterns with MV nospamNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2011/02/mv-patterns1.html T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
This reminds me of the spare light bulbs in our home. My wife keeps them in five (5) different places. I keep complaining I can never find the right light bulb for the right light fixture with a burned out bulb. :-) When software is spread around like the spare light bulbs in our house, perhaps this should alert us that things aren't very good, and the industry needs to take a good hard look at their practices. :-) Bill Tony Gravagno said the following on 2/3/2011 2:48 PM: From: Wol The problem is, where do you put the layers. That's my beef with relational, the layer is in COMPLETELY the wrong place. This means a large chunk of information, which *belongs* in the database layer, *has* to be put into the business layer. That inspired another blog. :) Multi-tier coding patterns with MV nospamNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2011/02/mv-patterns1.html T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
-Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:34 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? From: Steve Romanow Look at the number of language bindings for most db's. U2 has 2, and they are ok, but only 2. MongoDB has like 10-20. That problem is easily fixed technically. Language bindings don't need to come from the DBMS vendors. And let's face it, they aren't that creative and they don't want to invest too much unless they see tangible returns in terms of license sales. So this like other projects will have to be a community undertaking anyway, as it is with every other platform out there. I've already started this project actually, and run it by some respected community members to validate the concept. Actually I think they should be responsible, but the decisions of which bindings are made available should only be driven by the community. The vendor knows their own product and what it is capable of better than anyone else. All-Spec sells product for a profit as a way to operate but we are also solutions providers on many facets. With that in mind I see parallels here compared to a DB vendor offering a product that works as part of a business solution. To that end, I would never spend time and money researching and building web services or desktop applications for our customers if they have no use for them. Why should the DB vendor spend time and money building a language binding that no wants and is not readily useable in an existing business solution? On the flip side, I also would not leave it up to our customers to build their own inquiry app that scrapes our web pages for stock and pricing. I would prefer to provide them with a proper interface that fits their needs so we can finish the job and move on to other tasks. Unfortunately, unless both sides are eager to meet in the middle for the benefit of both then a symbiotic relationship will never happen. In many cases the possibility of such a relationship is never discussed or offered and therefore a lack of technological capability is wrongfully perceived. As always, the problem is that projects like this, for the good of everyone, tend to fall on the few who often can afford it the least. We've both started building fires that smoldered and died due to a lack of attention. At some point you have to move on when it becomes obvious that the community is not interested. When you know your vision is right, though, you should step back and change your scope of view on the project. The approach you're taking may be the primary incentive for your involvement, but the goal is just wrong. The opposite is also true as I've experienced. The goal may be popular but the original approach to get there is too convoluted or requires too many different skill sets to establish a functioning starter project. I'm going to use I and me below, but this applies to anyone in this market who does free development as a community service. There are a lot of us here. I create things like language bindings because I think it's cool and because it will help our market. In the mean time there are people fearing for loss of their jobs because their platform of choice is too obscure and missing language bindings (for example) that are common everywhere else. Demand/motivation and supply/desire in this market must learn to meet in the middle. You can't save the inept or the obstinate so don't expect solutions for them to bring you income. Make your fun tools, during your free time, because you want to. I know you do that and I do that too. I just don't publish them anymore. :) FOSS is a great way to enhance technology, but only if the end-users trust the developers and are willing to work hand-in-hand with them to keep the project moving. How often is it that a tool or solution is dropped in, plugged up, and then forgotten about for years? Most of the solutions deployed in our community are rock-solid performers and they don't need much attention once they're deployed. You can't expect just anyone to pick up a FOSS project that's a year old, backed by 2 or 3 periodic coders and say I just gotta play with that on our 1000-user system. I know if I solicit donations so that I can pay my mortgage while providing you (collectively) with something that will increase the value of your platform, I'll be shunned for trying to sell yet another product (what a concept *sigh*). The public outcry will be deafening but it should be FREE, implying of course that someone else should do the work for free for everyone's benefit, like it is (supposedly) in the rest of the world. With no motivation, this project that has been in the queue for about two years, will remain on the bottom of the TODO list, and may never get finished. (Personal
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
I agree with Glen here. Every cool tool with which I've ever been involved, has been actually written for some customer, on their dime. Then some agreement was reached at some point, that the tool could be marketed separately. And voila, we have a hundred tools running around the marketplace (or at least we did before 75 of them were gobbled up by hardware vendors). If there is enough of a market interest than all the specialized hooks embedded for Customer X and Y have to be removed before the product is really saleable, or else you have to tell the customer you have to customize it for them, which really means taking out all the special hooks while they pay for it :) -Original Message- From: Glen Batchelor webmas...@all-spec.com To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:46 pm Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Actually I think they should be responsible, but the decisions of which bindings are made available should only be driven by the community. The vendor knows their own product and what it is capable of better than anyone else. All-Spec sells product for a profit as a way to operate but we are also solutions providers on many facets. With that in mind I see parallels here compared to a DB vendor offering a product that works as part of a business solution. To that end, I would never spend time and money researching and building web services or desktop applications for our customers if they have no use for them. Why should the DB vendor spend time and money building a language binding that no wants and is not readily useable in an existing business solution? On the flip side, I also would not leave it up to our customers to build their own inquiry app that scrapes our web pages for stock and pricing. I would prefer to provide them with a proper interface that fits their needs so we can finish the job and move on to other tasks. Unfortunately, unless both sides are eager to meet in the middle for the benefit of both then a symbiotic relationship will never happen. In many cases the possibility of such a relationship is never discussed or offered and therefore a lack of technological capability is wrongfully perceived. As always, the problem is that projects like this, for the good of everyone, tend to fall on the few who often can afford it the least. We've both started building fires that smoldered and died due to a lack of attention. At some point you have to move on when it becomes obvious that the community is not interested. When you know your vision is right, though, you should step back and change your scope of view on the project. The approach you're taking may be the primary incentive for your involvement, but the goal is just wrong. The opposite is also true as I've experienced. The goal may be popular but the original approach to get there is too convoluted or requires too many different skill sets to establish a functioning starter project. I'm going to use I and me below, but this applies to anyone in this market who does free development as a community service. There are a lot of us here. I create things like language bindings because I think it's cool and because it will help our market. In the mean time there are people fearing for loss of their jobs because their platform of choice is too obscure and missing language bindings (for example) that are common everywhere else. Demand/motivation and supply/desire in this market must learn to meet in the middle. You can't save the inept or the obstinate so don't expect solutions for them to bring you income. Make your fun tools, during your free time, because you want to. I know you do that and I do that too. I just don't publish them anymore. :) FOSS is a great way to enhance technology, but only if the end-users trust the developers and are willing to work hand-in-hand with them to keep the project moving. How often is it that a tool or solution is dropped in, plugged up, and then forgotten about for years? Most of the solutions deployed in our community are rock-solid performers and they don't need much attention once they're deployed. You can't expect just anyone to pick up a FOSS project that's a year old, backed by 2 or 3 periodic coders and say I just gotta play with that on our 1000-user system. I know if I solicit donations so that I can pay my mortgage while providing you (collectively) with something that will increase the value of your platform, I'll be shunned for trying to sell yet another product (what a concept *sigh*). The public outcry will be deafening but it should be FREE, implying of course that someone else should do the work for free for everyone's benefit, like it is (supposedly) in the rest of the world. With no motivation, this project that has been in the queue for about two years, will remain on the bottom
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
On 02/02/11 18:57, Wols Lists wrote: The problem is, where do you put the layers. That's my beef with relational, the layer is in COMPLETELY the wrong place. This means a large chunk of information, which *belongs* in the database layer, *has* to be put into the business layer. Even the wording of relational theory makes this clear - data is stored as attributes. Attributes of what? Without an object to belong to, an attribute is meaningless, but you can't store an object in an RDBMS. To expand on this - let's say you want to store a list. Where do you store the sequence information? Bearing in mind that, as far as the real world is concerned, this is metadata ... so it DOESN'T belong mixed up in the same table as the data :-) And how do you tell a relational database that data is mutually co-dependent? That if one piece of data ceases to exist in the real world, all these other pieces will also cease to exist at the same time? Unless they're all single-valued, and fit in the same row, you can't! Unfortunately, relational theory is based on the premise that data comes already conveniently chopped up into rows and columns. Any information (data?) that links those rows and columns can't fit in the database, even if it belongs there. And it's the PB business analyst who is left trying to square the circle ... Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
I am not being rude, but the whole concept of being data storage agnostic and building the application layers above that is very 1990's textbook. What has been very apparent in the last ten years is that for many many applications the data storage technology is an integral part of the offering. (not to say we do not build business logic and data access layers) I have worked at places that offer their solution on mysql, mssql, oracle, but eventually they had to concentrate on one - it may well work on all, but it certainly was not efficient. They may all have the same concepts in terms of sql but they work in very different ways and in order to produce an architecture that is highly innovative and efficient you have to include the capabilities of the data storage into major consideration. I think if you are an end user site then the ability to choose a new DB store based on price/performance and irrelevant to the application is still a concern but for isv's developing innovative and efficient solutions we have very much moved on from that viewpoint. From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: 01 February 2011 23:19 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Storage is something completely different. Think of business objects rather than tables/rows/columns or file/record/fm/vm/sm/tm or even XML. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 10:31 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? While that all makes sense, the one difference here between U2 and the others (Oracle, MySQL, MSSQL) is the usage of multi-value data storage. Even if U2 had the best GUI interface, if you are utilizing the MV storage, you CAN'T Swap it out, without even more redevelopment. If your going to redevelop to not use the multi-value, then why bother with U2 at all, green screen or not. Guess it's a matter of how much you want to redevelop. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 4:12 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? If you still have a green screen and want to put a GUI/Web interface on it, then do the redevelopment, but look to see if you can layer your application architecture so that the database can be swapped out the database if you need to for whatever reason. The value is in your application not the database. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3416 - Release Date: 02/01/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
No offence taken, I disagree but that is okay -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 9:15 p.m. To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? I am not being rude, but the whole concept of being data storage agnostic and building the application layers above that is very 1990's textbook. What has been very apparent in the last ten years is that for many many applications the data storage technology is an integral part of the offering. (not to say we do not build business logic and data access layers) I have worked at places that offer their solution on mysql, mssql, oracle, but eventually they had to concentrate on one - it may well work on all, but it certainly was not efficient. They may all have the same concepts in terms of sql but they work in very different ways and in order to produce an architecture that is highly innovative and efficient you have to include the capabilities of the data storage into major consideration. I think if you are an end user site then the ability to choose a new DB store based on price/performance and irrelevant to the application is still a concern but for isv's developing innovative and efficient solutions we have very much moved on from that viewpoint. From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: 01 February 2011 23:19 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Storage is something completely different. Think of business objects rather than tables/rows/columns or file/record/fm/vm/sm/tm or even XML. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 10:31 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? While that all makes sense, the one difference here between U2 and the others (Oracle, MySQL, MSSQL) is the usage of multi-value data storage. Even if U2 had the best GUI interface, if you are utilizing the MV storage, you CAN'T Swap it out, without even more redevelopment. If your going to redevelop to not use the multi-value, then why bother with U2 at all, green screen or not. Guess it's a matter of how much you want to redevelop. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 4:12 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? If you still have a green screen and want to put a GUI/Web interface on it, then do the redevelopment, but look to see if you can layer your application architecture so that the database can be swapped out the database if you need to for whatever reason. The value is in your application not the database. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3416 - Release Date: 02/01/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Storage IS the database. Multivalue could be the issue. My point was that if you are utilizing mulitvalued storage than it's a major problem to be able to swap out the database, since the whole multivalue structure is not in Oracle (Ok. I think the latest version of Oracle has something), MySQL or MSSQL If your database could be swapped out for another database, then what is the advantage of using U2? and having to deal with the licensing issue at all? Most times, there is such a degree of design and development over the years that is dependant on U2 (pick) uniqueness that as far as licensing, your in a corner. Although I agree, it would be ideal to have your design structure be database engine independent, which puts you as the user/developer in control, but most U2 locations have had years upon years of Multivalued dependent code, and would cost far more to redesign than it would be to pay extra licensing fees. This however, doesn't excuse not preparing for the worst, and keeping the availability for your business model to transfer smoothly if the end should come (for U2 that is, not 2012). George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:19 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Storage is something completely different. Think of business objects rather than tables/rows/columns or file/record/fm/vm/sm/tm or even XML. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 10:31 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? While that all makes sense, the one difference here between U2 and the others (Oracle, MySQL, MSSQL) is the usage of multi-value data storage. Even if U2 had the best GUI interface, if you are utilizing the MV storage, you CAN'T Swap it out, without even more redevelopment. If your going to redevelop to not use the multi-value, then why bother with U2 at all, green screen or not. Guess it's a matter of how much you want to redevelop. George ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Agreed it is the database. I guess I was not clear. If your archictecture has layers dbms/DAL/BAL/UI then you COULD if you wanted to theoretically at least change one of these without largely impacting the other layers. Therefore if you did not like the dbms licensing model or the customer wanted into to run on another dbms then (provided you had written) the dbms schema and had a DAL for that dbms then you could switch the dbms. Admittedly a bit of work, if you have an already application, but gives you the flexibility of what you want. Symeon thinks this is old school, and it is not without challenges, but it does allow you to break each of the components which WILL change independently of the others. U2 disappears for the example, or prices itself out of the market you are in, the business/industry changes some logic, or the user wants to use and iphone or see their business data in a hologram ;-) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 3:16 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Storage IS the database. Multivalue could be the issue. My point was that if you are utilizing mulitvalued storage than it's a major problem to be able to swap out the database, since the whole multivalue structure is not in Oracle (Ok. I think the latest version of Oracle has something), MySQL or MSSQL If your database could be swapped out for another database, then what is the advantage of using U2? and having to deal with the licensing issue at all? Most times, there is such a degree of design and development over the years that is dependant on U2 (pick) uniqueness that as far as licensing, your in a corner. Although I agree, it would be ideal to have your design structure be database engine independent, which puts you as the user/developer in control, but most U2 locations have had years upon years of Multivalued dependent code, and would cost far more to redesign than it would be to pay extra licensing fees. This however, doesn't excuse not preparing for the worst, and keeping the availability for your business model to transfer smoothly if the end should come (for U2 that is, not 2012). George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:19 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Storage is something completely different. Think of business objects rather than tables/rows/columns or file/record/fm/vm/sm/tm or even XML. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 10:31 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? While that all makes sense, the one difference here between U2 and the others (Oracle, MySQL, MSSQL) is the usage of multi-value data storage. Even if U2 had the best GUI interface, if you are utilizing the MV storage, you CAN'T Swap it out, without even more redevelopment. If your going to redevelop to not use the multi-value, then why bother with U2 at all, green screen or not. Guess it's a matter of how much you want to redevelop. George ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Symeon: To your comment, I can only agree. :-) Bill Symeon Breen said the following on 2/2/2011 12:00 AM: I am not being rude, but the whole concept of being data storage agnostic and building the application layers above that is very 1990's textbook. What has been very apparent in the last ten years is that for many many applications the data storage technology is an integral part of the offering. (not to say we do not build business logic and data access layers) I have worked at places that offer their solution on mysql, mssql, oracle, but eventually they had to concentrate on one - it may well work on all, but it certainly was not efficient. They may all have the same concepts in terms of sql but they work in very different ways and in order to produce an architecture that is highly innovative and efficient you have to include the capabilities of the data storage into major consideration. I think if you are an end user site then the ability to choose a new DB store based on price/performance and irrelevant to the application is still a concern but for isv's developing innovative and efficient solutions we have very much moved on from that viewpoint. From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: 01 February 2011 23:19 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Storage is something completely different. Think of business objects rather than tables/rows/columns or file/record/fm/vm/sm/tm or even XML. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 10:31 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? While that all makes sense, the one difference here between U2 and the others (Oracle, MySQL, MSSQL) is the usage of multi-value data storage. Even if U2 had the best GUI interface, if you are utilizing the MV storage, you CAN'T Swap it out, without even more redevelopment. If your going to redevelop to not use the multi-value, then why bother with U2 at all, green screen or not. Guess it's a matter of how much you want to redevelop. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 4:12 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? If you still have a green screen and want to put a GUI/Web interface on it, then do the redevelopment, but look to see if you can layer your application architecture so that the database can be swapped out the database if you need to for whatever reason. The value is in your application not the database. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Let's not forget here that the business user wants a solution. If you can come in, with their solution, and no one else can, and you're a good salesperson, and the price is right, you get the signature most of the time. The reason products like Shims took off is because there was literally no competition in the marketplace they were addressing (small manufacturing and distribution companies), and what competition there was, was five times the price. That was a complete solution. Companies who *already* have an infrastructure and personnel investment in certain technologies, of course will desire to adhere to those. But that is not a show stopper, just a big boulder in the path. If you can show how much more fabulous your business solution is, than the last guys, you can get companies to switch from PCs to Macs Ok that's a joke. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
That should have been break out not just break ;-) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 7:16 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Agreed it is the database. I guess I was not clear. If your archictecture has layers dbms/DAL/BAL/UI then you COULD if you wanted to theoretically at least change one of these without largely impacting the other layers. Therefore if you did not like the dbms licensing model or the customer wanted into to run on another dbms then (provided you had written) the dbms schema and had a DAL for that dbms then you could switch the dbms. Admittedly a bit of work, if you have an already application, but gives you the flexibility of what you want. Symeon thinks this is old school, and it is not without challenges, but it does allow you to break each of the components which WILL change independently of the others. U2 disappears for the example, or prices itself out of the market you are in, the business/industry changes some logic, or the user wants to use and iphone or see their business data in a hologram ;-) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 3:16 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Storage IS the database. Multivalue could be the issue. My point was that if you are utilizing mulitvalued storage than it's a major problem to be able to swap out the database, since the whole multivalue structure is not in Oracle (Ok. I think the latest version of Oracle has something), MySQL or MSSQL If your database could be swapped out for another database, then what is the advantage of using U2? and having to deal with the licensing issue at all? Most times, there is such a degree of design and development over the years that is dependant on U2 (pick) uniqueness that as far as licensing, your in a corner. Although I agree, it would be ideal to have your design structure be database engine independent, which puts you as the user/developer in control, but most U2 locations have had years upon years of Multivalued dependent code, and would cost far more to redesign than it would be to pay extra licensing fees. This however, doesn't excuse not preparing for the worst, and keeping the availability for your business model to transfer smoothly if the end should come (for U2 that is, not 2012). George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:19 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Storage is something completely different. Think of business objects rather than tables/rows/columns or file/record/fm/vm/sm/tm or even XML. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 10:31 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? While that all makes sense, the one difference here between U2 and the others (Oracle, MySQL, MSSQL) is the usage of multi-value data storage. Even if U2 had the best GUI interface, if you are utilizing the MV storage, you CAN'T Swap it out, without even more redevelopment. If your going to redevelop to not use the multi-value, then why bother with U2 at all, green screen or not. Guess it's a matter of how much you want to redevelop. George ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
On 02/02/11 18:05, phil walker wrote: Agreed it is the database. I guess I was not clear. If your archictecture has layers dbms/DAL/BAL/UI then you COULD if you wanted to theoretically at least change one of these without largely impacting the other layers. Therefore if you did not like the dbms licensing model or the customer wanted into to run on another dbms then (provided you had written) the dbms schema and had a DAL for that dbms then you could switch the dbms. Admittedly a bit of work, if you have an already application, but gives you the flexibility of what you want. The problem is, where do you put the layers. That's my beef with relational, the layer is in COMPLETELY the wrong place. This means a large chunk of information, which *belongs* in the database layer, *has* to be put into the business layer. Even the wording of relational theory makes this clear - data is stored as attributes. Attributes of what? Without an object to belong to, an attribute is meaningless, but you can't store an object in an RDBMS. Symeon thinks this is old school, and it is not without challenges, but it does allow you to break each of the components which WILL change independently of the others. U2 disappears for the example, or prices itself out of the market you are in, the business/industry changes some logic, or the user wants to use and iphone or see their business data in a hologram ;-) :-) But I gather it's actually a lot easier to move between MV databases from independent vendors than it is to move between relational databases. And how the user wishes to view the data has nothing to do with the integrity of that data. If, in the *real* world, various items of data are physically locked together, MV allows you to lock them logically together in the database. Relational all too often forces you to separate them, and then you need loads of extra logic to ensure they don't accidentally become separated. In the real world, you don't get monopoles, or lone quarks. In a relational database, it's only too easy to get the equivalent by accident. Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Reminds me of that Steven Wright line: I went into a general store and they wouldn't let me buy anything specific. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:11 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Bottom line: There are no absolutes. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
There are people on this list that have been working with this database for 40 years or more, can you say that about the products you are so hyped up on. This database/environment/platform has outlived all other databases. It has outlived it's creators. It survives because it does what it is supposed to do. It was created to live and evolve. Long after the databases that you are extolling the virtues of have biten the dust it will continue. What you and many other people see is the glitz and glamor the newest fashion fad while the Plain Jane over in the corner does it's job. All hail Plain Jane. Jerry On 2/2/2011 12:58 PM, phil walker wrote: Comments in line. There are know right or wrong answers here but I would rather not have to rely completely on one technology platform, even Microsoft ...or apple ;-) That was also a joke... So those of you who do not change or cannot get Rocket to change, good luck with your future business. ...probably enough has been said down this path... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 7:31 a.m. To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Let's not forget here that the business user wants a solution. [phil walker] That's right. If you can come in, with their solution, and no one else can, and you're a good salesperson, and the price is right, you get the signature most of the time. [phil walker] Why not get it all of the time. The reason products like Shims took off is because there was literally no competition in the marketplace they were addressing (small manufacturing and distribution companies), and what competition there was, was five times the price. That was a complete solution. Companies who *already* have an infrastructure and personnel investment in certain technologies, of course will desire to adhere to those. But that is not a show stopper, just a big boulder in the path. [phil walker] Rightly or wrongly it is a fairly big boulder. So why not pick your battles. If you can show how much more fabulous your business solution is, than the last guys, you can get companies to switch from PCs to Macs Ok that's a joke. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
There are people who work on/drive cars much older than that. Yes, they still work, are functional and can sometimes look amazing. When it comes to utility though, they rarely match the total feature set available on the newer cars. Side Passenger Airbags, smoother rides, 5 star safety ratings, air conditioning... Point being, just because something is old and still in use, doesn't mean it is the best solution either technically or productively wise. It can have its place, but not every place. Unless of course they continue to evolve it, not just keep it running. I love MV databases and the unique opportunities it presents. It also has its issues that have been solved for a long time in 'the newest fashion fad' for which the MV databases desperately need to catch up with. Well, that is if they really want to increase the development/market share of the product, as opposed to merely 'supporting' current ISV solutions just enough to stop people absolutely needing to migrate away. * If I had anything remotely as useful/polished as Visual Studio to develop my life would be bliss. ** Development toolset in general is severely lacking * Licence model is frustration+ if you stray away from Telnet sessions ** It's so open to interpretation its ridiculous -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 2:09 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? There are people on this list that have been working with this database for 40 years or more, can you say that about the products you are so hyped up on. This database/environment/platform has outlived all other databases. It has outlived it's creators. It survives because it does what it is supposed to do. It was created to live and evolve. Long after the databases that you are extolling the virtues of have biten the dust it will continue. What you and many other people see is the glitz and glamor the newest fashion fad while the Plain Jane over in the corner does it's job. All hail Plain Jane. Jerry On 2/2/2011 12:58 PM, phil walker wrote: Comments in line. There are know right or wrong answers here but I would rather not have to rely completely on one technology platform, even Microsoft ...or apple ;-) That was also a joke... So those of you who do not change or cannot get Rocket to change, good luck with your future business. ...probably enough has been said down this path... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 7:31 a.m. To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Let's not forget here that the business user wants a solution. [phil walker] That's right. If you can come in, with their solution, and no one else can, and you're a good salesperson, and the price is right, you get the signature most of the time. [phil walker] Why not get it all of the time. The reason products like Shims took off is because there was literally no competition in the marketplace they were addressing (small manufacturing and distribution companies), and what competition there was, was five times the price. That was a complete solution. Companies who *already* have an infrastructure and personnel investment in certain technologies, of course will desire to adhere to those. But that is not a show stopper, just a big boulder in the path. [phil walker] Rightly or wrongly it is a fairly big boulder. So why not pick your battles. If you can show how much more fabulous your business solution is, than the last guys, you can get companies to switch from PCs to Macs Ok that's a joke. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ### The information transmitted in this message and attachments (if any) is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. The message may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action in reliance upon
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
What we are doing is not rocket science. The age of the tech really means nothing. Technology doesn't appreciate with age like a savings bond. On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Dan McGrath dmc...@imb.com.au wrote: There are people who work on/drive cars much older than that. Yes, they still work, are functional and can sometimes look amazing. When it comes to utility though, they rarely match the total feature set available on the newer cars. Side Passenger Airbags, smoother rides, 5 star safety ratings, air conditioning... Point being, just because something is old and still in use, doesn't mean it is the best solution either technically or productively wise. It can have its place, but not every place. Unless of course they continue to evolve it, not just keep it running. I love MV databases and the unique opportunities it presents. It also has its issues that have been solved for a long time in 'the newest fashion fad' for which the MV databases desperately need to catch up with. Well, that is if they really want to increase the development/market share of the product, as opposed to merely 'supporting' current ISV solutions just enough to stop people absolutely needing to migrate away. * If I had anything remotely as useful/polished as Visual Studio to develop my life would be bliss. ** Development toolset in general is severely lacking * Licence model is frustration+ if you stray away from Telnet sessions ** It's so open to interpretation its ridiculous -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 2:09 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? There are people on this list that have been working with this database for 40 years or more, can you say that about the products you are so hyped up on. This database/environment/platform has outlived all other databases. It has outlived it's creators. It survives because it does what it is supposed to do. It was created to live and evolve. Long after the databases that you are extolling the virtues of have biten the dust it will continue. What you and many other people see is the glitz and glamor the newest fashion fad while the Plain Jane over in the corner does it's job. All hail Plain Jane. Jerry On 2/2/2011 12:58 PM, phil walker wrote: Comments in line. There are know right or wrong answers here but I would rather not have to rely completely on one technology platform, even Microsoft ...or apple ;-) That was also a joke... So those of you who do not change or cannot get Rocket to change, good luck with your future business. ...probably enough has been said down this path... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 7:31 a.m. To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Let's not forget here that the business user wants a solution. [phil walker] That's right. If you can come in, with their solution, and no one else can, and you're a good salesperson, and the price is right, you get the signature most of the time. [phil walker] Why not get it all of the time. The reason products like Shims took off is because there was literally no competition in the marketplace they were addressing (small manufacturing and distribution companies), and what competition there was, was five times the price. That was a complete solution. Companies who *already* have an infrastructure and personnel investment in certain technologies, of course will desire to adhere to those. But that is not a show stopper, just a big boulder in the path. [phil walker] Rightly or wrongly it is a fairly big boulder. So why not pick your battles. If you can show how much more fabulous your business solution is, than the last guys, you can get companies to switch from PCs to Macs Ok that's a joke. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ### The information transmitted in this message
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
That's a false argument. They have been pandering that line ever since programming started as a profession. After all, wasn't that COBOL was meant to do? The business can do it! Programmers are NOT people who merely read/write code. Programmers are problem solvers. It will also be a speciality. At least until (if ever) we have a suitable AI and in that case, say good bye to almost every job and say hello to the world of Wall-E. As to being one of those people, while I may not have 40+ years experience, I've done everything from x86 ASM to .NET. What I appreciate are tools which can help abstract away pointless boilerplate code, reduce typing (Intellipoint), increase maintainability, scalability, etc. I want to concentrate on the business logic, not work out how I have to redesign solutions because the DB licence structure is restrictive (and excessively prohibitive in the age of the web). -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 3:48 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Be careful what you wish for. I didn't start out as a programmer, my degree is in Electronics Engineering, my early career was designing, building, and repairing many of the early computer systems. As time went on I had to change what I was doing because with throw away computer parts you no longer need a person that can tell you what is inside of the box all you need is someone that can replace it. The same thing is happening in the software business. With all of the new point and click tools you will eventually no longer need someone that can actually read code. Why do you think all of the software jobs are being outsourced. A person that needs to read code is no longer needed. As soon as they can figure out how to make the tools build logic into it, you're gone. It's not that far in the future. Now if you are one of the people that could never read the code or make heads or tails of business logic I can see why you would want the stuff that does it for you, but I don't think you are. Jerry On 2/2/2011 9:42 PM, Dan McGrath wrote: There are people who work on/drive cars much older than that. Yes, they still work, are functional and can sometimes look amazing. When it comes to utility though, they rarely match the total feature set available on the newer cars. Side Passenger Airbags, smoother rides, 5 star safety ratings, air conditioning... Point being, just because something is old and still in use, doesn't mean it is the best solution either technically or productively wise. It can have its place, but not every place. Unless of course they continue to evolve it, not just keep it running. I love MV databases and the unique opportunities it presents. It also has its issues that have been solved for a long time in 'the newest fashion fad' for which the MV databases desperately need to catch up with. Well, that is if they really want to increase the development/market share of the product, as opposed to merely 'supporting' current ISV solutions just enough to stop people absolutely needing to migrate away. * If I had anything remotely as useful/polished as Visual Studio to develop my life would be bliss. ** Development toolset in general is severely lacking * Licence model is frustration+ if you stray away from Telnet sessions ** It's so open to interpretation its ridiculous -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 2:09 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? There are people on this list that have been working with this database for 40 years or more, can you say that about the products you are so hyped up on. This database/environment/platform has outlived all other databases. It has outlived it's creators. It survives because it does what it is supposed to do. It was created to live and evolve. Long after the databases that you are extolling the virtues of have biten the dust it will continue. What you and many other people see is the glitz and glamor the newest fashion fad while the Plain Jane over in the corner does it's job. All hail Plain Jane. Jerry On 2/2/2011 12:58 PM, phil walker wrote: Comments in line. There are know right or wrong answers here but I would rather not have to rely completely on one technology platform, even Microsoft ...or apple ;-) That was also a joke... So those of you who do not change or cannot get Rocket to change, good luck with your future business. ...probably enough has been said down this path... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 7:31 a.m. To: u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Nah, I like staying in the code. I use gnu screen and vim every day. My take on where this thread has gone is: I like and appreciate mv for what it has done for me. Without opening up it will be hard to remain viable. The competition is nimble and the day of the vertical stack from one vendor is not a good move. Look at the number of language bindings for most db's. U2 has 2, and they are ok, but only 2. MongoDB has like 10-20. On 2/2/11, Jerry jpb-u...@hotmail.com wrote: Be careful what you wish for. I didn't start out as a programmer, my degree is in Electronics Engineering, my early career was designing, building, and repairing many of the early computer systems. As time went on I had to change what I was doing because with throw away computer parts you no longer need a person that can tell you what is inside of the box all you need is someone that can replace it. The same thing is happening in the software business. With all of the new point and click tools you will eventually no longer need someone that can actually read code. Why do you think all of the software jobs are being outsourced. A person that needs to read code is no longer needed. As soon as they can figure out how to make the tools build logic into it, you're gone. It's not that far in the future. Now if you are one of the people that could never read the code or make heads or tails of business logic I can see why you would want the stuff that does it for you, but I don't think you are. Jerry On 2/2/2011 9:42 PM, Dan McGrath wrote: There are people who work on/drive cars much older than that. Yes, they still work, are functional and can sometimes look amazing. When it comes to utility though, they rarely match the total feature set available on the newer cars. Side Passenger Airbags, smoother rides, 5 star safety ratings, air conditioning... Point being, just because something is old and still in use, doesn't mean it is the best solution either technically or productively wise. It can have its place, but not every place. Unless of course they continue to evolve it, not just keep it running. I love MV databases and the unique opportunities it presents. It also has its issues that have been solved for a long time in 'the newest fashion fad' for which the MV databases desperately need to catch up with. Well, that is if they really want to increase the development/market share of the product, as opposed to merely 'supporting' current ISV solutions just enough to stop people absolutely needing to migrate away. * If I had anything remotely as useful/polished as Visual Studio to develop my life would be bliss. ** Development toolset in general is severely lacking * Licence model is frustration+ if you stray away from Telnet sessions ** It's so open to interpretation its ridiculous -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 2:09 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? There are people on this list that have been working with this database for 40 years or more, can you say that about the products you are so hyped up on. This database/environment/platform has outlived all other databases. It has outlived it's creators. It survives because it does what it is supposed to do. It was created to live and evolve. Long after the databases that you are extolling the virtues of have biten the dust it will continue. What you and many other people see is the glitz and glamor the newest fashion fad while the Plain Jane over in the corner does it's job. All hail Plain Jane. Jerry On 2/2/2011 12:58 PM, phil walker wrote: Comments in line. There are know right or wrong answers here but I would rather not have to rely completely on one technology platform, even Microsoft ...or apple ;-) That was also a joke... So those of you who do not change or cannot get Rocket to change, good luck with your future business. ...probably enough has been said down this path... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Thursday, 3 February 2011 7:31 a.m. To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Let's not forget here that the business user wants a solution. [phil walker] That's right. If you can come in, with their solution, and no one else can, and you're a good salesperson, and the price is right, you get the signature most of the time. [phil walker] Why not get it all of the time. The reason products like Shims took off is because there was literally no competition in the marketplace they were addressing (small manufacturing and distribution companies), and what competition there was, was five times the price. That was a complete solution. Companies who *already
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
@George - you're probably right -- I found the doc on that link was dated Feb / Mar of 2010 -- that was well into Rocket-realm, but perhaps they just 'wrote up' the logic IBM used to make the change. And yes -- it appears the any 'socket' sets iPhantoms. The problem is that the logic does not address specifically the uses that could be 'abused' - but rather ALL uses. @Jeff / Symeon - That I can see, you don't 'consume' a 'purchased' seat running a phantom UNTIL you do a anything 'socket' - even if that Socket Use has the same use as a 'disk read'. As for use of cURL, WGet, etc - these are examples of the issue as I see it. Those are still an option to do exactly what we could do BEFORE this rule went into play, and we can still do those even now without a license 'ding'. To me, that's the core of this issue: the change didn't 'fix' anything except to create a barrier to adopting the Rocket-provided toolsets since CallHTTP can no longer work in a Phantom without 'expense' to the customer. I mean, they spent the time and money to develop CallHTTP, but now I can never use it again -- and sounds like a great number of people never used it or already 'jumped ship' as well. And are still doing EXACTLY what the change was designed to prevent! So what good was the 'effort' and 'hassle' for the change?? Did they really pick up additional revenue?? Or just make people find 'non-U2' solutions?? So - As I see it, there was a logic error in the decision made by IBM, continued by Rocket. I (probably crazily) hope that they will revisit the issue for CallHTTP. But from comments posted here, appears no one else is impacted by the Phantom license change. I am guessing people either just silently re-wrote their code to 'skip over' CallHTTP rather than complain, or had never adopted CallHTTP in the first place (used cURL/wGet before CallHTTP existed and never moved.) - So I will just work around it as everyone else did since it is not a 'group issue' worth pushing. Now, if they ever hamper the ability to run cURL/wGet, I guessing there will be the massive outcry that didn't happen over this issue! LOL! Have to get started -- Sadly, no one is going to pay me to fix this. And I write enough issues on my own without someone else creating issues for me! So... Goodbye CallHTTP -- Heo cURL! DW ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
On 2/1/2011 12:58 PM, David Wolverton wrote: Have to get started -- Sadly, no one is going to pay me to fix this. And I write enough issues on my own without someone else creating issues for me! So... Goodbye CallHTTP -- Heo cURL! DW The investment in cURL also gives you numerous other protocols. From their website. FILE, FTP, FTPS, GOPHER, HTTP, HTTPS, IMAP, IMAPS, LDAP, LDAPS, POP3, POP3S, RTMP, RTSP, SCP, SFTP, SMTP, SMTPS, TELNET and TFTP. curl supports SSL certificates, HTTP POST, HTTP PUT, FTP uploading, HTTP form based upload, proxies, cookies, user+password authentication (Basic, Digest, NTLM, Negotiate, kerberos...), file transfer resume, proxy tunneling ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
I find the whole licencing issue a real pain. Compare to sql server - express edition for free comes with 100 pooled connections as default - ok there is a max DB size I can then progress to a server licence - again any number of connection pools. Connection pools on unidata i get about 5 for the same kind of money From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: 01 February 2011 17:58 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? @George - you're probably right -- I found the doc on that link was dated Feb / Mar of 2010 -- that was well into Rocket-realm, but perhaps they just 'wrote up' the logic IBM used to make the change. And yes -- it appears the any 'socket' sets iPhantoms. The problem is that the logic does not address specifically the uses that could be 'abused' - but rather ALL uses. @Jeff / Symeon - That I can see, you don't 'consume' a 'purchased' seat running a phantom UNTIL you do a anything 'socket' - even if that Socket Use has the same use as a 'disk read'. As for use of cURL, WGet, etc - these are examples of the issue as I see it. Those are still an option to do exactly what we could do BEFORE this rule went into play, and we can still do those even now without a license 'ding'. To me, that's the core of this issue: the change didn't 'fix' anything except to create a barrier to adopting the Rocket-provided toolsets since CallHTTP can no longer work in a Phantom without 'expense' to the customer. I mean, they spent the time and money to develop CallHTTP, but now I can never use it again -- and sounds like a great number of people never used it or already 'jumped ship' as well. And are still doing EXACTLY what the change was designed to prevent! So what good was the 'effort' and 'hassle' for the change?? Did they really pick up additional revenue?? Or just make people find 'non-U2' solutions?? So - As I see it, there was a logic error in the decision made by IBM, continued by Rocket. I (probably crazily) hope that they will revisit the issue for CallHTTP. But from comments posted here, appears no one else is impacted by the Phantom license change. I am guessing people either just silently re-wrote their code to 'skip over' CallHTTP rather than complain, or had never adopted CallHTTP in the first place (used cURL/wGet before CallHTTP existed and never moved.) - So I will just work around it as everyone else did since it is not a 'group issue' worth pushing. Now, if they ever hamper the ability to run cURL/wGet, I guessing there will be the massive outcry that didn't happen over this issue! LOL! Have to get started -- Sadly, no one is going to pay me to fix this. And I write enough issues on my own without someone else creating issues for me! So... Goodbye CallHTTP -- Heo cURL! DW ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3416 - Release Date: 02/01/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
On 2/1/2011 2:04 PM, Symeon Breen wrote: I find the whole licencing issue a real pain. Compare to sql server - express edition for free comes with 100 pooled connections as default - ok there is a max DB size Or the db's like pgsql, mysql, etc with no restriction. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
but...UV is a lot more than just a db. You still need a front end with the others. Yes the front end can be free as well. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 2:10 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? On 2/1/2011 2:04 PM, Symeon Breen wrote: I find the whole licencing issue a real pain. Compare to sql server - express edition for free comes with 100 pooled connections as default - ok there is a max DB size Or the db's like pgsql, mysql, etc with no restriction. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
This is starting to go off on a tangent. But we seem to have this discussion on a regular basis. The way I see it is this: As an end-user of an application you should not or do not care what backend system is used. So after application capability, a match with the existing environment or cost of ownership is going to be the driving force behind your decision. As a developer of the application in the modern world you are going to stay with what you know. Unfortunately, if you stay on Green Screen you are probably going to not pick up new customers and will slowly lose existing ones. So you have a choice, carry on banging on about how U2 is so great, (who really cares apart from some of us), or look at modernising your application. I would pick the latter, and I would do it in such a way that my new application architecture would enable to pick a chose different technologies at the different layers (including DBMS) going forward. The match of the application functionality to the business requirements is what is going to sell it, not the fact that it runs on DBMS x or y. By using something like Microsoft SQL and its various versions, I can develop something and then scale it up as my user count increases.also all the tools that I am using are fully integrated with it already without having to buy 3rd party addons My 2c -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 8:15 a.m. To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? I find the whole licencing issue a real pain. Compare to sql server - express edition for free comes with 100 pooled connections as default - ok there is a max DB size I can then progress to a server licence - again any number of connection pools. Connection pools on unidata i get about 5 for the same kind of money From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: 01 February 2011 17:58 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? @George - you're probably right -- I found the doc on that link was dated Feb / Mar of 2010 -- that was well into Rocket-realm, but perhaps they just 'wrote up' the logic IBM used to make the change. And yes -- it appears the any 'socket' sets iPhantoms. The problem is that the logic does not address specifically the uses that could be 'abused' - but rather ALL uses. @Jeff / Symeon - That I can see, you don't 'consume' a 'purchased' seat running a phantom UNTIL you do a anything 'socket' - even if that Socket Use has the same use as a 'disk read'. As for use of cURL, WGet, etc - these are examples of the issue as I see it. Those are still an option to do exactly what we could do BEFORE this rule went into play, and we can still do those even now without a license 'ding'. To me, that's the core of this issue: the change didn't 'fix' anything except to create a barrier to adopting the Rocket-provided toolsets since CallHTTP can no longer work in a Phantom without 'expense' to the customer. I mean, they spent the time and money to develop CallHTTP, but now I can never use it again -- and sounds like a great number of people never used it or already 'jumped ship' as well. And are still doing EXACTLY what the change was designed to prevent! So what good was the 'effort' and 'hassle' for the change?? Did they really pick up additional revenue?? Or just make people find 'non-U2' solutions?? So - As I see it, there was a logic error in the decision made by IBM, continued by Rocket. I (probably crazily) hope that they will revisit the issue for CallHTTP. But from comments posted here, appears no one else is impacted by the Phantom license change. I am guessing people either just silently re-wrote their code to 'skip over' CallHTTP rather than complain, or had never adopted CallHTTP in the first place (used cURL/wGet before CallHTTP existed and never moved.) - So I will just work around it as everyone else did since it is not a 'group issue' worth pushing. Now, if they ever hamper the ability to run cURL/wGet, I guessing there will be the massive outcry that didn't happen over this issue! LOL! Have to get started -- Sadly, no one is going to pay me to fix this. And I write enough issues on my own without someone else creating issues for me! So... Goodbye CallHTTP -- Heo cURL! DW ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? (CASS validation)
From: Glen Batchelor MelissaDATA - Data Quality Suite On one hand I'm worried about a perception of smack talking some company here, but on the other hand I feel a need to convey my experience. I have personally been affected by breach of privacy issues with MelissaDATA. They harvest and publish data that they get from any source, regardless of what they say in their privacy notices. Any data you provide to them is subject to being sold to their other customers, who then sell it to others. They do not purge personal data, even after many requests, though they say they do. So not only are they betraying confidence but they also being blatently deceptive. The complaints of one individual will not significantly affect purchase decisions for a company as prominent as this one. I'm just passing on my experience and leaving it to you to decide what to do with it. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? (CASS validation)
What are you talking about If you're going to smack talk a company, provide facts and details so inquiries can be made. This isn't really the place for this anyway. For shame! I could talk smack about several people and firms I've dealt with in the MV community but I have more respect for myself and the company I work than that. Glen Batchelor IT Director/CIO/CTO All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 2:34 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? (CASS validation) From: Glen Batchelor MelissaDATA - Data Quality Suite On one hand I'm worried about a perception of smack talking some company here, but on the other hand I feel a need to convey my experience. I have personally been affected by breach of privacy issues with MelissaDATA. They harvest and publish data that they get from any source, regardless of what they say in their privacy notices. Any data you provide to them is subject to being sold to their other customers, who then sell it to others. They do not purge personal data, even after many requests, though they say they do. So not only are they betraying confidence but they also being blatently deceptive. The complaints of one individual will not significantly affect purchase decisions for a company as prominent as this one. I'm just passing on my experience and leaving it to you to decide what to do with it. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
The front end being data basic, which in my opinion is far superior to PL/SQL or T-SQL - even without the multi-value ability. By front end, if you install MySQL, you can't do much with it unless you use some programming language as the front end to display, whether it be GUI, or character based. I wouldn't call the CUI unusable, maybe not pretty, maybe inflexible but definitely not unusable. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 3:09 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? George: I'm not sure what you mean by front-end. No software can be sold today with a telnet-based character interface. So, if you mean a CUI front-end then I'd have to point out that you don't really get a front-end with U2 either, because CUIs are unusable and, therefore, of no value to us developers (at least not any more). In fact, the U2 environment is becoming significantly more expensive than the other environments noted by others who have also been working outside the U2 space. It's about time the PICK vendors figure this out and correct the problem or they soon won't have any clients left. Bill --- - George Gallen said the following on 2/1/2011 11:25 AM: but...UV is a lot more than just a db. You still need a front end with the others. Yes the front end can be free as well. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 2:10 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? On 2/1/2011 2:04 PM, Symeon Breen wrote: I find the whole licencing issue a real pain. Compare to sql server - express edition for free comes with 100 pooled connections as default - ok there is a max DB size Or the db's like pgsql, mysql, etc with no restriction. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
George: I don't mean to imply that the U2 CUI is unusable. It is very efficient, but useless in this graphics environment world we live in today. I can't sell our application with it so I have to build a GUI front end, which makes it an irrelevant benefit. I hope this makes sense. My point was simply that the costs of the PICK environment is much more than other environments and this has to be fixed. Thanks, Bill George Gallen said the following on 2/1/2011 12:17 PM: The front end being data basic, which in my opinion is far superior to PL/SQL or T-SQL - even without the multi-value ability. By front end, if you install MySQL, you can't do much with it unless you use some programming language as the front end to display, whether it be GUI, or character based. I wouldn't call the CUI unusable, maybe not pretty, maybe inflexible but definitely not unusable. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Haskett Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 3:09 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? George: I'm not sure what you mean by front-end. No software can be sold today with a telnet-based character interface. So, if you mean a CUI front-end then I'd have to point out that you don't really get a front-end with U2 either, because CUIs are unusable and, therefore, of no value to us developers (at least not any more). In fact, the U2 environment is becoming significantly more expensive than the other environments noted by others who have also been working outside the U2 space. It's about time the PICK vendors figure this out and correct the problem or they soon won't have any clients left. Bill --- - George Gallen said the following on 2/1/2011 11:25 AM: but...UV is a lot more than just a db. You still need a front end with the others. Yes the front end can be free as well. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 2:10 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? On 2/1/2011 2:04 PM, Symeon Breen wrote: I find the whole licencing issue a real pain. Compare to sql server - express edition for free comes with 100 pooled connections as default - ok there is a max DB size Or the db's like pgsql, mysql, etc with no restriction. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
No it does not, but there are a lot of applications out there that still are Green Screen and there is a tidal wave of market forces/perceptions/consultant recommendations (rightly or wrongly) to move off them. My point really was that if you already have an application which is U2 reliant whether it be green screen or not, then potentially you have a problem, as I think there are a number of people on this group who seem very hung up on the technology. If you still have a green screen and want to put a GUI/Web interface on it, then do the redevelopment, but look to see if you can layer your application architecture so that the database can be swapped out the database if you need to for whatever reason. The value is in your application not the database. If you have a GUI/Web interface and you a reliant on U2, then you probably should revisit your application architecture so that the DB interface is buried under your application layer. Therefore giving you the ability to move off the database onto another platform as above. The same goes for your front-end, develop your app so that you can have a different or multiple front. Separation of concerns... You can do nothing and wait in the hope that someone else may fix your problem, or you can plan today to give yourself choices...the choice is yours Cheers Phil. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 9:31 a.m. To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? My one thing to say on this is u2 does not = green screen - i have not written a green screen app for many many years - but i still use u2 and other DB's extensively. From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: 01 February 2011 19:34 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? This is starting to go off on a tangent. But we seem to have this discussion on a regular basis. The way I see it is this: As an end-user of an application you should not or do not care what backend system is used. So after application capability, a match with the existing environment or cost of ownership is going to be the driving force behind your decision. As a developer of the application in the modern world you are going to stay with what you know. Unfortunately, if you stay on Green Screen you are probably going to not pick up new customers and will slowly lose existing ones. So you have a choice, carry on banging on about how U2 is so great, (who really cares apart from some of us), or look at modernising your application. I would pick the latter, and I would do it in such a way that my new application architecture would enable to pick a chose different technologies at the different layers (including DBMS) going forward. The match of the application functionality to the business requirements is what is going to sell it, not the fact that it runs on DBMS x or y. By using something like Microsoft SQL and its various versions, I can develop something and then scale it up as my user count increases.also all the tools that I am using are fully integrated with it already without having to buy 3rd party addons My 2c -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 8:15 a.m. To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? I find the whole licencing issue a real pain. Compare to sql server - express edition for free comes with 100 pooled connections as default - ok there is a max DB size I can then progress to a server licence - again any number of connection pools. Connection pools on unidata i get about 5 for the same kind of money From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: 01 February 2011 17:58 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? @George - you're probably right -- I found the doc on that link was dated Feb / Mar of 2010 -- that was well into Rocket-realm, but perhaps they just 'wrote up' the logic IBM used to make the change. And yes -- it appears the any 'socket' sets iPhantoms. The problem is that the logic does not address specifically the uses that could be 'abused' - but rather ALL uses. @Jeff / Symeon - That I can see, you don't 'consume' a 'purchased' seat running a phantom UNTIL you do a anything 'socket' - even if that Socket Use has the same use as a 'disk read'. As for use of cURL, WGet, etc - these are examples of the issue as I see it. Those are still an option to do exactly what we could do BEFORE this rule went
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
While that all makes sense, the one difference here between U2 and the others (Oracle, MySQL, MSSQL) is the usage of multi-value data storage. Even if U2 had the best GUI interface, if you are utilizing the MV storage, you CAN'T Swap it out, without even more redevelopment. If your going to redevelop to not use the multi-value, then why bother with U2 at all, green screen or not. Guess it's a matter of how much you want to redevelop. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 4:12 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? If you still have a green screen and want to put a GUI/Web interface on it, then do the redevelopment, but look to see if you can layer your application architecture so that the database can be swapped out the database if you need to for whatever reason. The value is in your application not the database. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Storage is something completely different. Think of business objects rather than tables/rows/columns or file/record/fm/vm/sm/tm or even XML. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Wednesday, 2 February 2011 10:31 a.m. To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? While that all makes sense, the one difference here between U2 and the others (Oracle, MySQL, MSSQL) is the usage of multi-value data storage. Even if U2 had the best GUI interface, if you are utilizing the MV storage, you CAN'T Swap it out, without even more redevelopment. If your going to redevelop to not use the multi-value, then why bother with U2 at all, green screen or not. Guess it's a matter of how much you want to redevelop. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of phil walker Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 4:12 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? If you still have a green screen and want to put a GUI/Web interface on it, then do the redevelopment, but look to see if you can layer your application architecture so that the database can be swapped out the database if you need to for whatever reason. The value is in your application not the database. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
We tried out Group1 Software a few years back. Not sure if their still in business. Not Pick...but.. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 7:53 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? On 1/28/2011 3:49 PM, Larry Hiscock wrote: We're using it to consume address verification web services. Larry Hiscock Western Computer Services Can you recommend a company for CASS verification? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Sorry, didn't realize you were look for a web service for the CASS Not sure about that one. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Gallen Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 9:15 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? We tried out Group1 Software a few years back. Not sure if their still in business. Not Pick...but.. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 7:53 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? On 1/28/2011 3:49 PM, Larry Hiscock wrote: We're using it to consume address verification web services. Larry Hiscock Western Computer Services Can you recommend a company for CASS verification? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Thanks for the feedback folks. The reason I was doing this query was to review the 'reason' for the recent license changes that make CallHTTP 'consume' a seat if it is used within a 'phantom' process. I didn't say WHY I was interested get 'genuine' usage comments. Like many of you, I use CallHTTP to get a piece of data from a remote machine (in my case, a UniVerse server is validating a code from a UniData machine). But with a recent update to UniVerse, we started having weird 'failures' -- turns out it failed when all the 'seats' on the UniVerse machine were in use, and the Phantom attempted a CallHTTP lookup. Blam! Dead phantom! I read all the uses people posted, and unless I was mistaken, no one was seriously using CallHTTP for the purpose of serving multiple 'logical users'. It appears everyone is using CallHTTP as a way to gather a piece of data that could have just as easily been in a file on the local disk drive if the machine you have could have limitless resources. In my use, and apparently most of yours, to call CallHTTP 'interactive' would be the same as calling a disk read 'interactive'. Here is the link for the 'business case' for making CallHTTP 'eat a seat' when used in a Phantom. I wanted to see if the logic made sense for the CallHTTP feature. My point to Rocket will be that someone could make a phantom into a 'multi-user' server by using READ/WRITEs from Text Files -- yet those are 'allowed' -- so trying to 'lock down' the server against a POSSIBLE misuse of the license terms by removing needed features seems counterproductive. UNLESS, that is, you're going to lock down EVERY POSSIBLE way to misuse the system - Meaning, phantoms should not be able to READ or WRITE at all. Heck, phantoms should not even EXIST since their existence could lead to license misuse! https://u2tc.rocketsoftware.com/rsp-portal/rsp/solutionDetail.asp?id=0002370 1?sterm=iphantomexact=searchAction=doSolutionSearch.aspcatFilter=02n4 000TqmnoType= Am I out on a limb here saying that CallHTTP should probably not cause a Phantom to go iPhantom? I mean, Rocket can do whatever the heck they want, it's their sandbox after all and we really have no choice but to suck it up... But is the logic they employed flawed as I think it is? Or am I just a loon? (H.. really, the two questions are not mutually exclusive I guess... But you get the point... ) I'm interested in comments on the topic, if any. DW ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Phantoms use a seat. Always have. It really has nothing to do with what the phantom process is doing. It invokes a Universe session. I would suggest that if you don't want to use a Universe seat to accomplish an HTTP read you utilize cURL, Wget or some other OS level command line tool to perform the retrieval of the data. I do it all the time. If you are on a Unix/Linix based system you can even fire off your shell script as a background process just like a phantom. David Wolverton wrote: Thanks for the feedback folks. The reason I was doing this query was to review the 'reason' for the recent license changes that make CallHTTP 'consume' a seat if it is used within a 'phantom' process. I didn't say WHY I was interested get 'genuine' usage comments. Like many of you, I use CallHTTP to get a piece of data from a remote machine (in my case, a UniVerse server is validating a code from a UniData machine). But with a recent update to UniVerse, we started having weird 'failures' -- turns out it failed when all the 'seats' on the UniVerse machine were in use, and the Phantom attempted a CallHTTP lookup. Blam! Dead phantom! I read all the uses people posted, and unless I was mistaken, no one was seriously using CallHTTP for the purpose of serving multiple 'logical users'. It appears everyone is using CallHTTP as a way to gather a piece of data that could have just as easily been in a file on the local disk drive if the machine you have could have limitless resources. In my use, and apparently most of yours, to call CallHTTP 'interactive' would be the same as calling a disk read 'interactive'. Here is the link for the 'business case' for making CallHTTP 'eat a seat' when used in a Phantom. I wanted to see if the logic made sense for the CallHTTP feature. My point to Rocket will be that someone could make a phantom into a 'multi-user' server by using READ/WRITEs from Text Files -- yet those are 'allowed' -- so trying to 'lock down' the server against a POSSIBLE misuse of the license terms by removing needed features seems counterproductive. UNLESS, that is, you're going to lock down EVERY POSSIBLE way to misuse the system - Meaning, phantoms should not be able to READ or WRITE at all. Heck, phantoms should not even EXIST since their existence could lead to license misuse! https://u2tc.rocketsoftware.com/rsp-portal/rsp/solutionDetail.asp?id=0002370 1?sterm=iphantomexact=searchAction=doSolutionSearch.aspcatFilter=02n4 000TqmnoType= Am I out on a limb here saying that CallHTTP should probably not cause a Phantom to go iPhantom? I mean, Rocket can do whatever the heck they want, it's their sandbox after all and we really have no choice but to suck it up... But is the logic they employed flawed as I think it is? Or am I just a loon? (H.. really, the two questions are not mutually exclusive I guess... But you get the point... ) I'm interested in comments on the topic, if any. DW ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA jschasny at gmail dot com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
I Believe this change was made by IBM, not rocket, prior to the sale of U2. I thought that any of the calls that open sockets as a phantom will consume a license now, not just CallHTTP. The READ/WRITE method even though it can still be abused, has it's issues with consuming cpu while checking for any new entries in the file, where as the socket method doesn't seem to have that problem. I've tried both, and am willing to deal with the cpu time waste because I've had too many issues with synching with the socket methods. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 10:05 AM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Here is the link for the 'business case' for making CallHTTP 'eat a seat' when used in a Phantom. I wanted to see if the logic made sense for the CallHTTP feature. My point to Rocket will be that someone could make a phantom into a 'multi-user' server by using READ/WRITEs from Text Files -- yet those are 'allowed' -- so trying to 'lock down' the server against a POSSIBLE misuse of the license terms by removing needed features seems counterproductive. UNLESS, that is, you're going to lock down EVERY POSSIBLE way to misuse the system - Meaning, phantoms should not be able to READ or WRITE at all. Heck, phantoms should not even EXIST since their existence could lead to license misuse! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
phantoms on our system do not take a license seat. They do take a unix process PID. We are at UV 10.0.1. I do not know if unidata is different in that sense. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Schasny Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 10:33 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Phantoms use a seat. Always have. It really has nothing to do with what the phantom process is doing. It invokes a Universe session. I would suggest that if you don't want to use a Universe seat to accomplish an HTTP read you utilize cURL, Wget or some other OS level command line tool to perform the retrieval of the data. I do it all the time. If you are on a Unix/Linix based system you can even fire off your shell script as a background process just like a phantom. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
With a web service, running Pick is not relevant . :) On 1/31/2011 9:15 AM, George Gallen wrote: We tried out Group1 Software a few years back. Not sure if their still in business. Not Pick...but.. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
but it does make it a little nicer if they are. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:06 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? With a web service, running Pick is not relevant . :) On 1/31/2011 9:15 AM, George Gallen wrote: We tried out Group1 Software a few years back. Not sure if their still in business. Not Pick...but.. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? (CASS validation)
MelissaDATA - Data Quality Suite http://www.melissadata.com/dqt/dataquality-suite.htm In the documentation I was sent a couple years ago, it states that you can print a CASS summary form (USPS 3553). That will probably involve a batch validation using the SOAP API. You can dump a ton of addresses in one request IIRC and when you're done with the batches you submit a request to process. I don't remember what you do from that point. You should contact someone at MelissaDATA to verify that's still valid and what's involved with getting a 3553. I am not using their services for CASS bulk mailing. A simple address look-up with DPV and residential indicator is what I'm using, which sparked the Spectrum article I wrote back in 2007/2008. Regards, Glen Batchelor IT Director/CIO/CTO All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 7:53 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? On 1/28/2011 3:49 PM, Larry Hiscock wrote: We're using it to consume address verification web services. Larry Hiscock Western Computer Services Can you recommend a company for CASS verification? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
On 31/01/11 15:04, David Wolverton wrote: Am I out on a limb here saying that CallHTTP should probably not cause a Phantom to go iPhantom? I mean, Rocket can do whatever the heck they want, it's their sandbox after all and we really have no choice but to suck it up... But is the logic they employed flawed as I think it is? Or am I just a loon? (H.. really, the two questions are not mutually exclusive I guess... But you get the point... ) I'm interested in comments on the topic, if any. Hmmm ... Not saying it's a good, or a bad, idea, but why can't Rocket do what Prime did with INFORMATION (which bit us on a couple of occasions). We had two 16-user licences and a 32-user licence. Each user type had a set of licences. So a 16-user system had 16 interactive licences, 16 slave licences, 16 phantom licences, you get the drift ... Until 17 users on the 32-user system wanted to access data on the 16-user system - blam - unable to connect, licences exhausted. But the rules were nice and clear, and we just had to work round them. Cheers, Wol ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
On udt phantoms do not use a licence. From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Schasny Sent: 31 January 2011 15:33 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Phantoms use a seat. Always have. It really has nothing to do with what the phantom process is doing. It invokes a Universe session. I would suggest that if you don't want to use a Universe seat to accomplish an HTTP read you utilize cURL, Wget or some other OS level command line tool to perform the retrieval of the data. I do it all the time. If you are on a Unix/Linix based system you can even fire off your shell script as a background process just like a phantom. David Wolverton wrote: Thanks for the feedback folks. The reason I was doing this query was to review the 'reason' for the recent license changes that make CallHTTP 'consume' a seat if it is used within a 'phantom' process. I didn't say WHY I was interested get 'genuine' usage comments. Like many of you, I use CallHTTP to get a piece of data from a remote machine (in my case, a UniVerse server is validating a code from a UniData machine). But with a recent update to UniVerse, we started having weird 'failures' -- turns out it failed when all the 'seats' on the UniVerse machine were in use, and the Phantom attempted a CallHTTP lookup. Blam! Dead phantom! I read all the uses people posted, and unless I was mistaken, no one was seriously using CallHTTP for the purpose of serving multiple 'logical users'. It appears everyone is using CallHTTP as a way to gather a piece of data that could have just as easily been in a file on the local disk drive if the machine you have could have limitless resources. In my use, and apparently most of yours, to call CallHTTP 'interactive' would be the same as calling a disk read 'interactive'. Here is the link for the 'business case' for making CallHTTP 'eat a seat' when used in a Phantom. I wanted to see if the logic made sense for the CallHTTP feature. My point to Rocket will be that someone could make a phantom into a 'multi-user' server by using READ/WRITEs from Text Files -- yet those are 'allowed' -- so trying to 'lock down' the server against a POSSIBLE misuse of the license terms by removing needed features seems counterproductive. UNLESS, that is, you're going to lock down EVERY POSSIBLE way to misuse the system - Meaning, phantoms should not be able to READ or WRITE at all. Heck, phantoms should not even EXIST since their existence could lead to license misuse! https://u2tc.rocketsoftware.com/rsp-portal/rsp/solutionDetail.asp?id=0002370 1?sterm=iphantomexact=searchAction=doSolutionSearch.aspcatFilter=02n4 000TqmnoType= Am I out on a limb here saying that CallHTTP should probably not cause a Phantom to go iPhantom? I mean, Rocket can do whatever the heck they want, it's their sandbox after all and we really have no choice but to suck it up... But is the logic they employed flawed as I think it is? Or am I just a loon? (H.. really, the two questions are not mutually exclusive I guess... But you get the point... ) I'm interested in comments on the topic, if any. DW ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA jschasny at gmail dot com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3413 - Release Date: 01/30/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Any phantom that uses the sockets api - or a derivative of it like the http or soap api will become an interactive phantom - the reason being it is in some way interacting with the outside world. Of course the way round it would be to use curl instead ... From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: 31 January 2011 15:05 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Thanks for the feedback folks. The reason I was doing this query was to review the 'reason' for the recent license changes that make CallHTTP 'consume' a seat if it is used within a 'phantom' process. I didn't say WHY I was interested get 'genuine' usage comments. Like many of you, I use CallHTTP to get a piece of data from a remote machine (in my case, a UniVerse server is validating a code from a UniData machine). But with a recent update to UniVerse, we started having weird 'failures' -- turns out it failed when all the 'seats' on the UniVerse machine were in use, and the Phantom attempted a CallHTTP lookup. Blam! Dead phantom! I read all the uses people posted, and unless I was mistaken, no one was seriously using CallHTTP for the purpose of serving multiple 'logical users'. It appears everyone is using CallHTTP as a way to gather a piece of data that could have just as easily been in a file on the local disk drive if the machine you have could have limitless resources. In my use, and apparently most of yours, to call CallHTTP 'interactive' would be the same as calling a disk read 'interactive'. Here is the link for the 'business case' for making CallHTTP 'eat a seat' when used in a Phantom. I wanted to see if the logic made sense for the CallHTTP feature. My point to Rocket will be that someone could make a phantom into a 'multi-user' server by using READ/WRITEs from Text Files -- yet those are 'allowed' -- so trying to 'lock down' the server against a POSSIBLE misuse of the license terms by removing needed features seems counterproductive. UNLESS, that is, you're going to lock down EVERY POSSIBLE way to misuse the system - Meaning, phantoms should not be able to READ or WRITE at all. Heck, phantoms should not even EXIST since their existence could lead to license misuse! https://u2tc.rocketsoftware.com/rsp-portal/rsp/solutionDetail.asp?id=0002370 1?sterm=iphantomexact=searchAction=doSolutionSearch.aspcatFilter=02n4 000TqmnoType= Am I out on a limb here saying that CallHTTP should probably not cause a Phantom to go iPhantom? I mean, Rocket can do whatever the heck they want, it's their sandbox after all and we really have no choice but to suck it up... But is the logic they employed flawed as I think it is? Or am I just a loon? (H.. really, the two questions are not mutually exclusive I guess... But you get the point... ) I'm interested in comments on the topic, if any. DW ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3413 - Release Date: 01/30/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
I agree. I use cURL for more reasons than socket license requirements. If the server-client communication does not have to be synchronous with your business app then it will allow you to run external batch jobs. CASS certification, for example, can be done in the background for new addresses right before a bulk mailing. For typical real-time scenarios, it takes the uh oh factor out of socket API mods/bugs when you decide to upgrade or apply patches. I trust cURL more than any built-in socket interface and it offers a lot of extras that often do not exist cross-flavor like client SSL support and programmatic authentication methods. Regards, Glen Batchelor IT Director/CIO/CTO All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 3:42 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Any phantom that uses the sockets api - or a derivative of it like the http or soap api will become an interactive phantom - the reason being it is in some way interacting with the outside world. Of course the way round it would be to use curl instead ... From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: 31 January 2011 15:05 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Thanks for the feedback folks. The reason I was doing this query was to review the 'reason' for the recent license changes that make CallHTTP 'consume' a seat if it is used within a 'phantom' process. I didn't say WHY I was interested get 'genuine' usage comments. Like many of you, I use CallHTTP to get a piece of data from a remote machine (in my case, a UniVerse server is validating a code from a UniData machine). But with a recent update to UniVerse, we started having weird 'failures' -- turns out it failed when all the 'seats' on the UniVerse machine were in use, and the Phantom attempted a CallHTTP lookup. Blam! Dead phantom! I read all the uses people posted, and unless I was mistaken, no one was seriously using CallHTTP for the purpose of serving multiple 'logical users'. It appears everyone is using CallHTTP as a way to gather a piece of data that could have just as easily been in a file on the local disk drive if the machine you have could have limitless resources. In my use, and apparently most of yours, to call CallHTTP 'interactive' would be the same as calling a disk read 'interactive'. Here is the link for the 'business case' for making CallHTTP 'eat a seat' when used in a Phantom. I wanted to see if the logic made sense for the CallHTTP feature. My point to Rocket will be that someone could make a phantom into a 'multi-user' server by using READ/WRITEs from Text Files -- yet those are 'allowed' -- so trying to 'lock down' the server against a POSSIBLE misuse of the license terms by removing needed features seems counterproductive. UNLESS, that is, you're going to lock down EVERY POSSIBLE way to misuse the system - Meaning, phantoms should not be able to READ or WRITE at all. Heck, phantoms should not even EXIST since their existence could lead to license misuse! https://u2tc.rocketsoftware.com/rsp- portal/rsp/solutionDetail.asp?id=0002370 1?sterm=iphantomexact=searchAction=doSolutionSearch.aspcatFilter=02n400 00 000TqmnoType= Am I out on a limb here saying that CallHTTP should probably not cause a Phantom to go iPhantom? I mean, Rocket can do whatever the heck they want, it's their sandbox after all and we really have no choice but to suck it up... But is the logic they employed flawed as I think it is? Or am I just a loon? (H.. really, the two questions are not mutually exclusive I guess... But you get the point... ) I'm interested in comments on the topic, if any. DW ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3413 - Release Date: 01/30/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Jeff: I don't believe phantoms use a seat by default. The solution you advocate is one that has been occurring in the PICK market for years; if you want to do something reasonable then get off of PICK to another product that doesn't use a very expensive telnet licensing paradigm, especially for small firms. Many people have taken that route, much to the chagrin of all of us in the MV market-space. Personally I agree with David that the current MV licensing scheme is outdated, and counter-productive, and must be re-thought before there are no MV environments left; Raining Data learned what happens when customers are squeezed for every dime possible. I'm presently running into this problem and am beginning to wonder why I've stuck with MV so long. This is IMHO of course. Bill Jeff Schasny said the following on 1/31/2011 7:32 AM: Phantoms use a seat. Always have. It really has nothing to do with what the phantom process is doing. It invokes a Universe session. I would suggest that if you don't want to use a Universe seat to accomplish an HTTP read you utilize cURL, Wget or some other OS level command line tool to perform the retrieval of the data. I do it all the time. If you are on a Unix/Linix based system you can even fire off your shell script as a background process just like a phantom. David Wolverton wrote: Thanks for the feedback folks. The reason I was doing this query was to review the 'reason' for the recent license changes that make CallHTTP 'consume' a seat if it is used within a 'phantom' process. I didn't say WHY I was interested get 'genuine' usage comments. Like many of you, I use CallHTTP to get a piece of data from a remote machine (in my case, a UniVerse server is validating a code from a UniData machine). But with a recent update to UniVerse, we started having weird 'failures' -- turns out it failed when all the 'seats' on the UniVerse machine were in use, and the Phantom attempted a CallHTTP lookup. Blam! Dead phantom! I read all the uses people posted, and unless I was mistaken, no one was seriously using CallHTTP for the purpose of serving multiple 'logical users'. It appears everyone is using CallHTTP as a way to gather a piece of data that could have just as easily been in a file on the local disk drive if the machine you have could have limitless resources. In my use, and apparently most of yours, to call CallHTTP 'interactive' would be the same as calling a disk read 'interactive'. Here is the link for the 'business case' for making CallHTTP 'eat a seat' when used in a Phantom. I wanted to see if the logic made sense for the CallHTTP feature. My point to Rocket will be that someone could make a phantom into a 'multi-user' server by using READ/WRITEs from Text Files -- yet those are 'allowed' -- so trying to 'lock down' the server against a POSSIBLE misuse of the license terms by removing needed features seems counterproductive. UNLESS, that is, you're going to lock down EVERY POSSIBLE way to misuse the system - Meaning, phantoms should not be able to READ or WRITE at all. Heck, phantoms should not even EXIST since their existence could lead to license misuse! https://u2tc.rocketsoftware.com/rsp-portal/rsp/solutionDetail.asp?id=0002370 1?sterm=iphantomexact=searchAction=doSolutionSearch.aspcatFilter=02n4 000TqmnoType= Am I out on a limb here saying that CallHTTP should probably not cause a Phantom to go iPhantom? I mean, Rocket can do whatever the heck they want, it's their sandbox after all and we really have no choice but to suck it up... But is the logic they employed flawed as I think it is? Or am I just a loon? (H.. really, the two questions are not mutually exclusive I guess... But you get the point... ) I'm interested in comments on the topic, if any. DW ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
[U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? Are you 'eating' someone else's data with it - like doing lookups against a web service call? Or are you using it to 'serve' data to others? Rocket says you can do this, but I can't see how it would work offhand and would like to know the scenario. How complex have you found it and how stable? Thanks for your thoughts! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
One use we have is to send/consume XML to an external third-party service provider. We also use internally for web service calls. The first time doing it can be a challenge. After that, it's pretty straight-forward. It has been very stable for us. Brad. U.S. BANCORP made the following annotations - Electronic Privacy Notice. This e-mail, and any attachments, contains information that is, or may be, covered by electronic communications privacy laws, and is also confidential and proprietary in nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you are legally prohibited from retaining, using, copying, distributing, or otherwise disclosing this information in any manner. Instead, please reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and then immediately delete it. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. - ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
We consume data. VERY reliable. Not serving anything, though. Nancy Fisher Peninsula Truck Lines, Inc Federal Way, Washington 253/929-2040 Visit our Website www.peninsulatruck.com nan...@peninsulatruck.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 10:51 AM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? Are you 'eating' someone else's data with it - like doing lookups against a web service call? Or are you using it to 'serve' data to others? Rocket says you can do this, but I can't see how it would work offhand and would like to know the scenario. How complex have you found it and how stable? Thanks for your thoughts! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? [AD]
We use CallHTTP with some of our customers to push/pull data between Universe BASIC and SQL Server, Oracle, etc..., through a connection-pooled HTTP(s) server. We provide an API of subroutines to manage the interface. It's part of our mvLynx Connect API product. We have customers doing a very high volume of transactions through this interface and we find it extremely stable. It has been stress tested by real-world Universe applications running on both AIX and Linux. HTH, -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 10:51 AM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? Are you 'eating' someone else's data with it - like doing lookups against a web service call? Or are you using it to 'serve' data to others? Rocket says you can do this, but I can't see how it would work offhand and would like to know the scenario. How complex have you found it and how stable? Thanks for your thoughts! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
The only thing I'm using it for is to get currency exchange rates. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 1:50 PM, David Wolverton dwolv...@flash.net wrote: What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? Are you 'eating' someone else's data with it - like doing lookups against a web service call? Or are you using it to 'serve' data to others? Rocket says you can do this, but I can't see how it would work offhand and would like to know the scenario. How complex have you found it and how stable? Thanks for your thoughts! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
We're using it to consume address verification web services. Larry Hiscock Western Computer Services On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 1:50 PM, David Wolverton dwolv...@flash.net wrote: What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? Are you 'eating' someone else's data with it - like doing lookups against a web service call? Or are you using it to 'serve' data to others? Rocket says you can do this, but I can't see how it would work offhand and would like to know the scenario. How complex have you found it and how stable? Thanks for your thoughts! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
On 1/28/2011 1:50 PM, David Wolverton wrote: What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? None whatsoever. Are you 'eating' someone else's data with it - like doing lookups against a web service call? Or are you using it to 'serve' data to others? Rocket says you can do this, but I can't see how it would work offhand and would like to know the scenario. How complex have you found it and how stable? Too complex, not sure about stability. I am following someone on c.d.p's lead from 2006 and using curl. I have also used wget in the past for a dictionary items to do a filecheck on web images. You can use wget in --spider mode and it will just give you back an http 200 if the file resolves, but will not actually download it. Thanks for your thoughts! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
CallHTTP is used to call someone else's http service like a webservice or an actual web page, we use it to communicate with web services, rss feeds, and also html documents that we analyse. In order to serve data to others you would not use callhttp - you should use the sockets interface - or preferably write a webservice in say .net and use uniobjects.net - it really is 20 lines of code. From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: 28 January 2011 18:50 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? Are you 'eating' someone else's data with it - like doing lookups against a web service call? Or are you using it to 'serve' data to others? Rocket says you can do this, but I can't see how it would work offhand and would like to know the scenario. How complex have you found it and how stable? Thanks for your thoughts! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3408 - Release Date: 01/28/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
I tried to but we are still using AIX 4.3.3 and UV 9.6 Garry L. Smith Dir Info Systems Charles McMurray Company V# 559-292-5782 F# 559-346-6169 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 1:29 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? On 1/28/2011 1:50 PM, David Wolverton wrote: What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? None whatsoever. Are you 'eating' someone else's data with it - like doing lookups against a web service call? Or are you using it to 'serve' data to others? Rocket says you can do this, but I can't see how it would work offhand and would like to know the scenario. How complex have you found it and how stable? Too complex, not sure about stability. I am following someone on c.d.p's lead from 2006 and using curl. I have also used wget in the past for a dictionary items to do a filecheck on web images. You can use wget in --spider mode and it will just give you back an http 200 if the file resolves, but will not actually download it. Thanks for your thoughts! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Which twenty? -Original Message- From: Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Jan 28, 2011 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? CallHTTP is used to call someone else's http service like a webservice or an actual web page, we use it to communicate with web services, rss feeds, and also html documents that we analyse. In order to serve data to others you would not use callhttp - you should use the sockets interface - or preferably write a webservice in say .net and use uniobjects.net - it really is 20 lines of code. From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: 28 January 2011 18:50 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? Are you 'eating' someone else's data with it - like doing lookups against a web service call? Or are you using it to 'serve' data to others? Rocket says you can do this, but I can't see how it would work offhand and would like to know the scenario. How complex have you found it and how stable? Thanks for your thoughts! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3408 - Release Date: 01/28/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
Somewhere embedded in those 20 lines are the two special instructions: RMM (read my mind) DWIM (do what I meant) :) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:05 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? Which twenty? -Original Message- From: Symeon Breen syme...@gmail.com To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Fri, Jan 28, 2011 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? CallHTTP is used to call someone else's http service like a webservice or an actual web page, we use it to communicate with web services, rss feeds, and also html documents that we analyse. In order to serve data to others you would not use callhttp - you should use the sockets interface - or preferably write a webservice in say .net and use uniobjects.net - it really is 20 lines of code. From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David Wolverton Sent: 28 January 2011 18:50 To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? Are you 'eating' someone else's data with it - like doing lookups against a web service call? Or are you using it to 'serve' data to others? Rocket says you can do this, but I can't see how it would work offhand and would like to know the scenario. How complex have you found it and how stable? Thanks for your thoughts! ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3408 - Release Date: 01/28/11 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
From: David Wolverton What uses have you found for CallHTTP for in your applications? David, as you know, I use web services every day and have written articles, products, and interfaces for clients based on them. The modern world is all about The Cloud, Virtualization, Software As A Service, the Service Oriented Architecture, and Web Services. A significant percentage of code these days is dedicated to exchanges via SOAP, XMLRPC, REST, and other protocols over HTTP. To the rest of the world, this is simply the way things are now done, whether we're talking about moving documents, requesting services, controlling devices, or storing data. I encourage you to elevate the question past What uses have you found in an MV-based forum. In this market some people are still kicking the tires on paradigms that have been accepted in the rest of the world for over a decade. Look to the mainstream for examples of web services (particularly REST). You'll find a lot of inspiration there, and it will apply to your MV work as much as it applies to anyone else. The CallHTTP interface is just a tool. HTTP interfaces can be done in many ways. Once you have a better feel for the scope of applications, you'll have your answer about CallHTTP in particular, and you can consider that as one possible tool for implementation. (This concept applies to All tools in the MV world.) As to how you send data to a trading partner with CallHTTP, the payload is in your query. You should be able to push out any information that can be provided in a URL, or via a GET/POST request from a browser form. HTH Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula RD sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products worldwide, and provides related development services remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
From: Symeon Breen In order to serve data to others you would not use callhttp - you should use the sockets interface - or preferably write a webservice in say .net and use uniobjects.net - it really is 20 lines of code. From: fft2001 Which twenty? Symeon - I know you know this, just clarifying... It seems you wanted to make sure someone didn't think CallHTTP was a server component. But as a client CallHTTP is OK to push data out to another site. Will - I have a video on my site that shows how to create web service clients and servers for MV with .NET. It really can be trivial, and yes, less than 20 lines of code of functional code which you can see in the video. I'm using mv.NET but the UO.NET is very close. nospam.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/products/gallery.htm T Purists can consider the above an AD, though the rest of us can see it's free. ;) ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
From: Symeon Breen In order to serve data to others you would not use callhttp - you should use the sockets interface - or preferably write a webservice in say .net and use uniobjects.net - it really is 20 lines of code. From: fft2001 Which twenty? Symeon - I know you know this, just clarifying... It seems you wanted to make sure someone didn't think CallHTTP was a server component. But as a client CallHTTP is OK to push data out to another site. Will - I have a video on my site that shows how to create web service clients and servers for MV with .NET. It really can be trivial, and yes, less than 20 lines of code of functional code which you can see in the video. I'm using mv.NET but the UO.NET is very close. nospam.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/products/gallery.htm T Purists can consider the above an AD, though the rest of us can see it's free. ;) ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
On 1/28/2011 3:49 PM, Larry Hiscock wrote: We're using it to consume address verification web services. Larry Hiscock Western Computer Services Can you recommend a company for CASS verification? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP?
We use Qualified Address (http://www.qualifiedaddress.com). They offer both Address Verification as a web service and batch address scrubbing with full CASS certification. Larry Hiscock Western Computer Services -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 4:53 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] What do you do with CallHTTP? On 1/28/2011 3:49 PM, Larry Hiscock wrote: We're using it to consume address verification web services. Larry Hiscock Western Computer Services Can you recommend a company for CASS verification? ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
