Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-17 Thread Deirdre Straughan
Paul, I love you. (Oh, and I'm coming to MK next Friday, if you want to get together with me and maybe Ian Mills.)I've added you to http://www.beginningwithi.com/vlog/howtovideoblog.html On 3/16/06, Paul Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Call us stupid, call us Brits, call us Stupid Brits if

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-17 Thread Paul Knight
Thanks for that, I would love to meet you too, work permitting I could make time to meet up in a more mutually neutral place than Milton Keynes, Coventry or even Northampton would be better for me, being an Northerner and all that.   I shall also ask my Partner In Crime Paul Reynoldson, If he

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-17 Thread Lisa Ours MA PLPC
Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:48:37 + Thanks for that, I would love to meet you too, work permitting I could make time to meet up in a more mutually neutral place than Milton Keynes, Coventry or even Northampton would be better for me

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-16 Thread Deirdre Straughan
On 3/16/06, Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sh!don't mention petsthat really peeves some folks on the listsome guy complained a while back about cat videos and Richard BF's beenuploading them ever sinceOh, good, then here's my chance to offend EVERYBODY:

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-16 Thread hpbatman7
Well, as long as we are ranting an peeving, what really peeves me about other vlogs is that they get me hits than mine. :) just felt like being a smart.alec. ;) --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, missbhavens1969 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: O! Okay! got it. Sorry. : )

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-16 Thread Stephanie Bryant
Better to be a smartass than a dumbass. On 3/16/06, hpbatman7 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, as long as we are ranting an peeving, what really peeves me about other vlogs is that they get me hits than mine. :) just felt like being a smart.alec. ;) -- Stephanie Bryant [EMAIL

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-16 Thread Lisa Ours MA PLPC
and our lives... Sorry I'm babbling... back to my corner. Lisa From: Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:17:20 -0800 sh! don't mention

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-16 Thread Michael Verdi
Hey,I'm back from SXSW. The Darknets panel was a good and touched on some of the copyright issues. Personally, I think a system where something like The Grey Album is illegal, doesn't work. Now the MPAA (they had a representative on the panel) and the RIAA still look at this as theft. As long

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-16 Thread Stephanie Bryant
Seriously. In the next vlog post I put up, I filmed a TV screen, complete with flickering. Nothing artistic about it, either-- I screwed up and didn't zoom in, even though I previewed the zoom and everything. Go me. --Stephanie On 3/16/06, Lisa Ours MA PLPC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I love it!

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-16 Thread Paul Knight
bject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:17:20 -0800 sh!  don't mention pets that really peeves some folks on the list some guy complained a while back about cat videos and Richard BF's been uploading them ever since ;) missbhavens1969 wrote: I

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-16 Thread Kitka
affect us and our lives... Sorry I'm babbling... back to my corner. Lisa From: Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:17:20

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-16 Thread Paul Knight
orner. Lisa From: Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:17:20 -0800 sh!  don't mention pets that really peeves some folks on the list som

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-16 Thread Pete Prodoehl
Michael Verdi wrote: - I come at this as an artist who very much respects people's right to get paid for their work and on the other hand I also believe that by contributing to and participating in culture (popular and otherwise) you give up total control over your work. A few years ago I made

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Brett Gaylor
On 3/13/06, Kitka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Paul, I agree with you too.In the media world, there IS sucha thing as a cease and desist.I was talking with someone from theCBC the other day (more about this subject at a later date) and he told me about how someone was compiling a Top 100

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Kitka
Brett... I worship Bill Shatner, not Lenny Cohen. Regards, Kitka (a.k.a. she who graduated from the same university as William Shatner) http://www.kitkast.com/ --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Brett Gaylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/13/06, Kitka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Pete Prodoehl
Kitka wrote: Thanks Paul, I agree with you too. In the media world, there IS such a thing as a cease and desist. I was talking with someone from the CBC the other day (more about this subject at a later date) and he told me about how someone was compiling a Top 100 songs list for a major

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread wlight
Paul wrote: Kitka wrote: Thanks Paul, I agree with you too.  In the media world, there IS suchBR a thing as a cease and desist.  I was talking with someone from theBR CBC the other day (more about this subject at a later date) and heBR told me about how someone was compiling a Top 100 songs

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Deirdre Straughan
On 3/15/06, Pete Prodoehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The reason I think all of this stuff is important is that I want to seevideoblogging grow and grow, and pretty much explode, and I want to seeit done without violating the rights of artists. I want to see it done in a way that steps around all

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Pete Prodoehl
Kitka wrote: Gees, Pete... take a chill pill. Ok, chilling out now... I guess in the end I just want to make sure that the newbies that show up here are aware of the issues, and we, as the folks who answer the how to questions give good advice that won't get them into legal hot water, or

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread gottadiva
- I am interested in this point - how difficult is it to negotiate such rights? Depends on the artist Are there standard forms? We have boilerplate forms drawn up by our attorney. What kinds of fees are typical, if there is such a thing as typical in this field? No Is there a

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Paul Knight
Hence the request for the Star Trek Uniform as requested by me on one of your shows, please please please please please..  Original Trek, not the sexless Next Gen or Voyager one's.Hows does one get heard.PS.  We now have there MS Yes's, Racjel is working on the forth, any more send 'em

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread BevSykes
Hence the request for the Star Trek Uniform as requested by me on one of your shows, please please please please please Just make sure they don't give you the red shirt. -- BevBlog: http://funnytheblog.blogspot.com/Journal: http://funnytheworld.com SPONSORED LINKS

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Kitka
Pete, I would argue if I had time... Thanks for bringing it back down a notch, Kitka --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Pete Prodoehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kitka wrote: Gees, Pete... take a chill pill. Ok, chilling out now... I guess in the end I just want to make sure that

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Kitka
Paul- I have the uniform you speak of... I made it myself a few years ago. I have no doubt you'll see it on a future show... in the meantime, here's a link to a set of my nerdiest pics (where you can get a preview): http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/sets/1323215/ Btw, just made a

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Caution Zero
--- Deirdre Straughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But because the law offers no protection for such creative re-use, it had to be removed from ourmedia when the copyright owner (United Features Syndicate) complained. This is an area of law which needs to be tested by the courts, but won't be

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Michael Sullivan
I love capturing screens. i do it all the time and have always considered it a sort of digital art. the pixelation noise and flickering etc it can really add some interesting layers to an otherwise typical visual experience. I have many clips to this effect. I should post them. Some are

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Deirdre Straughan
On 3/15/06, Caution Zero [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -which seems to me to be since there isn't enough goodCC music in the world, the law should let me takewhatever i want from whomever i want, and that isconceptually problematic. I don't expect the law ever to do that, nor would I consider it

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Lisa Ours MA PLPC
HA! Now that is something that could make a lovely vlog concept...to infringe on an old song title Where have all the Red Shirts gone? Heh. From: BevSykes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Lisa Ours MA PLPC
the faceless masses bring it to somebody's attentioncome to think of it... do we have a Vlog Lobby? Lisa From: Deirdre Straughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Wed, 15 Mar

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Thomas G Henry
I think the only vlogging mistake one can make is not vlogging --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Josh Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm gonna pull a Verdi here and assert that there are no vlogging mistakes, I mean other than linking to the wrong video or something like that.

RE: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Lisa Ours MA PLPC
HEAR! HEAR! Vlog On! From: Thomas G Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 23:48:18 - I think the only vlogging mistake one can make

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Bill Streeter
I happen to believe that it's technically wrong to use others work without permission. But then again on the great grand list of things that one can do wrong that's somewhere near the bottom. White lies are technically wrong too. Obviously there is some risk in getting a nasty letter or even a law

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread missbhavens1969
I don't suppose we could start a rant and peeve thread about rants and pet peeves? Bekah http://missbhavens.blogspot.com -- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Ours MA PLPC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There there, it's not like we can't start another thread to rant and peeve on some

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Markus Sandy
sh! don't mention pets that really peeves some folks on the list some guy complained a while back about cat videos and Richard BF's been uploading them ever since ;) missbhavens1969 wrote: I don't suppose we could start a rant and peeve thread about rants and pet peeves? Bekah

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread missbhavens1969
O! Okay! got it. Sorry. : ) --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sh! don't mention pets that really peeves some folks on the list some guy complained a while back about cat videos and Richard BF's been uploading them ever since ;)

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-15 Thread Enric
http://ryanedit.blogspot.com/2006/03/umf-pets-live.html ;) --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Markus Sandy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sh! don't mention pets that really peeves some folks on the list some guy complained a while back about cat videos and Richard BF's been

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-14 Thread missbhavens1969
I'll let you know how that goes when I contact Warner Bros. to use material from the Prince back catalogue for my vlog. I really dig that song Darling Nikki. It's got a terrific beat. Bekah --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, gottadiva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 5. If you find something

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread gottadiva
Oh, to be fair I have to admit that in my first vlog, Branding Power the script is based LARGELY on a parable by BuildingBrands.com. I do give him full credit, and I did change it a little. So, perhaps I'm violating my own rule, cause I didn't contact him first? I think one of the other reasons

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Kitka
In the words of Han Solo... well, ex-cuse me, Princess! How about suggesting a certain software for MAC and PC for those of us who still film screens. Andrew Baron suggested software for MAC, but unfortunately I use a PC. Kitka http://www.kitkast.com/ --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com,

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Kitka
Yup, the one thing that seems to bother me the most is people who just blatantly use the work of others without permission, and brush it off with well, I love the song or some other such excuse... Pete What irks me is when people on the videoblogging group bring up the copyright issue

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Stephanie Bryant
Here ya go, princess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screencast#MS_Windows_only On 3/13/06, Kitka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the words of Han Solo... well, ex-cuse me, Princess! How about suggesting a certain software for MAC and PC for those of us who still film screens. Andrew Baron

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Pete Prodoehl
gottadiva wrote: What irks me is when people on the videoblogging group bring up the copyright issue for the umpteenth time... seriously folks, if you have nothing new to contribute to this topic, move on. Kitka, I understand your frustration. But, I think that the reason this topic

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Mrs. Ours MA PLPC
@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:08:32 -0600 gottadiva wrote: What irks me is when people on the videoblogging group bring up the copyright issue for the umpteenth time... seriously folks, if you have nothing new to contribute

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Kitka
Princess Stephanie... that's the best birthday present I could have asked for... thanks a lot! Kitka http://www.kitkast.com/ --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Stephanie Bryant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here ya go, princess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screencast#MS_Windows_only On

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread gottadiva
Prodoehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:08:32 -0600 gottadiva wrote: What irks me is when people on the videoblogging group bring up

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread gottadiva
Has anyone ever done a tutorial on how to go about getting permissions or using and finding vlog safe work? If not that would be nice. A few tips: 1. Ten Copyright Permission Myths http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html 2. Info about creative common lisc

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread gottadiva
I still don't see that if you use a soundtrack hat someone else has performed, because you are not making money from it, or shouldn't be, then a piece of music is like an advert for the copyright owner. Paul, I understand your thinking, and it seems logical on the surface. However

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Joan Khoo
Nealey from Mom's Brag Vlog got a bill for using copyrighted music from Freeplay.http://nealey.blogspot.com/2005/08/freeplay-music-lesson-learned.html Fortunately it ended well, no lawsuit or anything like that, just an unexpected bill.CheersJoanOn 3/14/06, Paul Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Kitka
Thanks Paul, I agree with you too. In the media world, there IS such a thing as a cease and desist. I was talking with someone from the CBC the other day (more about this subject at a later date) and he told me about how someone was compiling a Top 100 songs list for a major network he said

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Devlon
http://magnatune.com/ has pod-safe musicNot sure about vlog-safe, but I don't know if there would be a huge distinction...I am sure someone will point out one if there is. I just googled pod safe musichttp://music.podshow.com/http://www.podsafeaudio.com/...and the list continues... On 3/13/06,

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread David Howell
I use Magnatune and I couldnt be happier. I emailed them a while back regarding using their music and they sent back a credit card number for me to use whenever I wanted to purchase music to add to my videos at no charge to me. The stipulation is that I promote their artists in my videos. Not a

RE: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Mrs. Ours MA PLPC
: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:34:13 - The true peeve comes when people lose their ability to be civil to each other in the process. There is never a reason to be unkind to each other if we do not allow ourselves to be emotionally invested

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Pete Prodoehl
Devlon wrote: http://magnatune.com/ has pod-safe music Not sure about vlog-safe, but I don't know if there would be a huge distinction...I am sure someone will point out one if there is. I just googled pod safe music http://music.podshow.com/ http://www.podsafeaudio.com/ ...and the list

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Pete Prodoehl
Paul Knight wrote: I agree with Kitka, I still don't see that if you use a soundtrack that someone else has performed, because you are not making money from it, or shouldn't be, then a piece of music is like an advert for the copyright owner. Nothing more than product placement such as a

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Mrs. Ours MA PLPC
Yo Paul! My Only advice Don't use ANYthing by Metallica!!! Cheerio! Lisa From: Pete Prodoehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 16:38:17 -0600 Paul

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread LeanBackVids.com
The only problem I have with using podsafe music is that is sucks to search for. I've visited each of the sites listed below (and a few others) and none of them are efficent. PodShow.com is probably the best, but the searchability is still brutal. The effort it takes to find a single, halfway

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Devlon
On 3/13/06, LeanBackVids.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only problem I have with using podsafe music is that is sucks to search for. I've visited each of the sites listed below (and a few others) and none of them are efficent.This is a very good point, and I've felt the same frustration

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread David Howell
If you want to search by the feel of the music or style of music, you want http://www.freeplaymusic.com/ Another great site. David http://www.davidhowellstudios.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Devlon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/13/06, LeanBackVids.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Devlon
Thanks, I'l check it outOn 3/13/06, David Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want to search by the feel of the music or style of music, you want http://www.freeplaymusic.com/ Another great site. David http://www.davidhowellstudios.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Devlon

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread gottadiva
--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, David Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want to search by the feel of the music or style of music, you want http://www.freeplaymusic.com/ Earlier someone posted about a vlogger getting into legal trouble for using the stuff from freeplaymusic Cheers

[videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread David Howell
After going back and reading Freeplay's Terms Of Use, I wouldnt use them. Rather pricey and restrictive all at the same time. Their search feature is quite good though. Ah well. David http://www.davidhowellstudios.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, gottadiva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Richard Show
Kitka,First of all, as far as I'm concerned, just film the screen ... not a pet peeve of mine ... you make great videos just the way they are.However, if the spirit moves you and you want to do official screen capture, that's, at least, less of a hassle than filming the screen, camtasia is

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Richard Show
I mean't, camtasia is a great PC option (since you had only heard about the Mac software) ... On 3/14/06, Richard Show [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Kitka,First of all, as far as I'm concerned, just film the screen ... not a pet peeve of mine ... you make great videos just the way they are. However,

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Deirdre Straughan
On 3/13/06, Pete Prodoehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want to be the first to get caught just use some material forwhich you have no rights to, and we'll be glad to alert the owners ofsuch material at your request. Everyone's mileage may vary, but keep in mind that Zadi used a VERY well

Re: [videoblogging] Re: Top Ten Vlogging Mistakes

2006-03-13 Thread Deirdre Straughan
Hear, hear! No need to shut up - this is an excellent and true contribution to the group.On 3/13/06, Mrs. Ours MA PLPC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I've seen the group beat this poor ex-horse so many timesThis is one of those topics that is so political that it can never be solved so all