Hi Sieghard,
when I swipe down from a period, I get the number series:
3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
Oh, sorry that was after I drew a circle! lol! Oops… :)
Anyway, I just figured out that I can get a colon consistently by doing the
following:
• Do a very small swipe
That's Pi, interesting, but not what you wanted.
- Original Message -
From: Cara Quinn modelc...@gmail.com
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: Handwriting - how to get a comma, colon and other observations
Hi Sieghard,
when I swipe down
Hi John and list.
John, this is not altogether true.
As I mentioned before, the app developer can override this behavior by
implementing a method in their code to specify the action they'd like the
two-finger double tap gesture to perform while in their app.
Hope this helps and have a great
Hi Ron,
I think you're thinking of a semicolon.
I was looking for a colon which is two dots on top of each other as you know. :)
I did figure out how to get this consistently now so thanks to you all for help!
You rock!
Smiles,
Cara :)
On Sep 22, 2013, at 4:58 PM, Ron Pelletier
Hilisters,
I can confirm the bug only on iPad in different apps, such as mail.
Even touhing the screen with 4 fingers on the top of the display to jump to the
first element on screen, does an different action.
Idd a very annoying bug..
Op 22-sep.-2013, om 05:02 heeft Victor Marques
Hi Denise, you can be sure of it.
However, this is absolutely not a substitute for accessibil...@apple.com as
this list is high-traffic and any Apple peeps here are here on their own time
because they want to be. So do remember to always always always direct your
concerns first and foremost to
Let me just please remind everyone; rather than vent your frustrations, which
many of us seem to have an overwhelming amount of, to please please please do
remember that these people are extremely devoted to what they do and are quite
passionate about helping our community.
So please remember
HI Rob, yes, this was of course, a joke! :)
Glad you caught it.
However my ability to consistently get the colon to print is not. :)
Glad this works now!…
Smiles,
Cara :)
On Sep 23, 2013, at 12:10 AM, RobH. bobs...@googlemail.com wrote:
That's Pi, interesting, but not what you wanted.
-
hi,
I have found if you enter the . Or what you might call a period, and then flick
down with two fingers your first option will be a comma.
Sandy.
Sent from my iPhone
On 23 Sep 2013, at 01:16, Ron Pelletier ron.pellet...@sympatico.ca wrote:
Hi,
Just tap the screen with one finger and
Tom, I've just done exactly the same.
Cheers
Alex
-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Thom Spittle
Sent: 20 September 2013 13:26
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: New Spirit level feature part of iOS 7. Wow
I am
Hello list
When I import disk 2 of a set the sound is distorted. When I
play the CD on my sound system it sounds fine. Is there a
way to lower the volume during the import process. I think
there existed such an option in earlier versions of iTunes
but it is not under preferences anymore. I may
This may not directly answer your question, but whenever I send myself
or a friend a gift certificate, it takes several hours from the time I
completed the transaction to the time myself or a friend receive the
certificate. So just tell them to please be patient and they should get
it
Hi listers,
Does someone know where those buttons are in Ios7?
tia :)
-Peter
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Jenifer Barr
Sent from my iPhone
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Gone.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 23, 2013, at 4:57 AM, Peter Durieux peter.durieux1...@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi listers,
Does someone know where those buttons are in Ios7?
tia :)
-Peter
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I had that problem in IOS6 as well. it was rather annoying and I could never
figure out why it did it either.
May and Prince Noah
www.canadianlynx.ca
On 2013-09-22, at 9:27 PM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote:
Hey guys,
I am having a serious problem with contacts losing their sms
They chose to remove them, now you have to use the app of your choice to to
use these services. I miss them being there also.
Kliphton Senior
(iMessage) kliph...@icloud.com - Email kliph...@gmail.com
(Twitter,Instagram,FourSquareSkype) kliphton72
[Text only] 914-820-2298
(Personal blog-read at
yes works well here Phil thank you... At 11:09 PM 9/22/2013, you wrote:
Hi Folks,
Aaron and Brad on the Audio Games forum have written about how to
get the game to work.
You need to turn voiceover off.
With IOS 7, Siri can do that for you.
Then when the game starts. pintch your fingers
Yes, I found the same thing shortly after the update but, as I'm not really
that interested in the handwriting right now as I have only a limited idea of
writing, I decided to take it out of the rotor setting. I do think I managed
to move it backwards through the rotor before removing it.
Go to settings, Voice Store.
Along the bottom of the screen are for tabs. From left to right they are:
Popular, Latest, iOS Built-in, and Maker.
Double tap on iOS Built-in and you will be able to choose, based on your
language, which iOS voice, or voices you want available.
You will find under
Hi Cara,
OK, seriously, these numbers you get if you draw one number and then swipe
down must totally have a secret meaning, right? This screams conspiracy
*smile*. I think they are, hmm. maybe nuclear launch codes?
Happy Monday,
Sieghard
From: viphone@googlegroups.com
I didn't rush to order the 5s this time. But, rather, finding that none of my
family members would want my 4S, I decided to hold off a bit, and maybe even go
to the Apple Store or ATT store in person to see if I would get some sort of
trade-in value for my old phone.
But, just for the fun of
That's odd since I had sighted help confirm that the dictation button
was not appearing on the screen.
Furthermore, when I attempt to double tap while in an edit field I
never hear the tone indicating to begin dictating. Rather what usually
happens is music will start playing.
I'm running ios7
Hello: On updating to Ios 7 I chose to put in a password to unlock the
screen. Is there away of removing it in order to unlock the screen and go
directly to the home screen?
Thank you.
Martin Nelson
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Post a
The new calendar format has been one of the biggest drawbacks for me
with ios7. My solution, and it isn't 100% satisfactory, was to
purchase VO Calendar and use it instead. The app is ten dollars and
the layout is a bit odd, but it's easier to manage than the native
calendar layout. Also, when you
Yes go to settings general pass code and enter the pass code to turn it off.
On 9/23/13, Martin Nelson martinels...@verizon.net wrote:
Hello: On updating to Ios 7 I chose to put in a password to unlock the
screen. Is there away of removing it in order to unlock the screen and go
directly to
Hello,
I haven't had a chance to try this yet, but I did notice in the What's New
section of the most recent Prizmo update that they said something about an
indication that the iPhone is held flat and parallel to the table. Of course
this would easily be possible if they query the level function
Hello list,
I have two questions. The first is related to the iBook Store and
accessibility and the second is about iBooks more generally:
First, I am unable to access the titles of books in the Ibooks Store. I
started having this trouble when I updated to IOS 7. Have others had the
same
Hello list,
I'm wondering if folks have a preference for iBooks or the Kindell app on
the iPHone? Given the problems I started having with iBooks, I downloaded
the Kindell app this weekend and have had a good experience with it thus
far. Thoughts or experiences would be welcome?
Brad
--
Did you try going to the book shelf to find the books or using the
search ffeature for the title.
On 9/23/13, Prof. Kadel brad.ka...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello list,
I have two questions. The first is related to the iBook Store and
accessibility and the second is about iBooks more generally:
This is a strange problem, so I hope I can explain it adequately.
When I do a three finger swipe to move from say the home page to page
2, the focus pauses on page 2 for only a second or less then jumps to
page 3. In order to get to page 2 I have to swipe back and place my
finger quickly on one
Though I use both apps, I prefer the Kindle. I think the slection of
books is greater for the Kindle and the overall reading experience
feels more natural to me. Just my opinion, of course.
Kimber
On 9/23/13, Prof. Kadel brad.ka...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello list,
I'm wondering if folks have a
Agreed, Sieghard, however the plain level that is built in to IOS 7 still
needs some tweaking from an accessibility standpoint. I sent an email to
accessibil...@apple.com letting them know that an announcement of x and y
axis when spoken with voice over, would help us trememdously.
I also
Hi Kimber,
This is by now a documented and confirmed bug in iOS 7 and has to do with
that entire hypersensitivity of the touch screen. The only thing you can do
and it may or may not help a bit is to go to Accessibility Settings and turn
on Reduced Motion which is towards the bottom of the main
Hello everyone,
I just got the cambridge advanced learners dictionary with audio app on my
iphone 4 with ios7.
Although i am able to input text and see that this word is included i dont see
its meaning appear.
Has anyone got experience with this app?
Greetings, Anouk,
--
You received this
I enjoy both apps and use them both.
I mainly purchase kindle books but check ibooks and kindle and purchase based
on price and availability.
I use kindle to be able to also purchase audible books at a discount at times.
Both apps work and I enjoy having choices of books and being able to shop
I have loved using the native calendar app for IOS and not had problems until
IOS 7.
The fix is to use the search button and you can view your list of apts.
It has worked well for me and no issues entering appointments and its been
totally accessible with exception of now just seeing event but
I'm using IOS 7 on an iPhone 5 and iPad 3.
On both the after I turn the Zoom setting on, it doesn't stay on.
A number of times a day I have to turn Zoom back on.
I use mostly VO and turn Zoom on when needed with a double 3 finger tap.
Is anyone else having this issue?
Thanks,
Hello,
I bought an app that turned out to be inaccessible. I googled but cant find the
place where i can report a problem with the app or cant you do this from an
idevice? I looked at updates/purchase history..
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Greetings, Anouk,
--
You received this
Did you try using siri to turn on zoom.
On 9/23/13, zkrisher zkris...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm using IOS 7 on an iPhone 5 and iPad 3.
On both the after I turn the Zoom setting on, it doesn't stay on.
A number of times a day I have to turn Zoom back on.
I use mostly VO and turn Zoom on when
Yes, Segert, I hear no difference between the two voices. and I have made a
point of turning off the phone and then back on in order to establish the
change.
Fred Olver
Author of Dealing with Vision Loss
have a look it just makes sense.
http://www.dealingwithvisionloss.com
-
Yes I know exactly what you mean because I am having the same problem as
well and I have to do exactly what you are doing putting a finger on the
icon.
It doesn't matter what you do, its very hypo sensitive. I don't think there
is very much you can do at the moment except just try and
Hi all,
I agree with everything that has been said on this thread.
However, a couple of other things I would like to see improved are:
1. With the introduction of iOS 7, after activating a countdown timer, the
remaining time now appears on the lock screen. However, when you wake your
phone,
Hi Sieghard. Personally, I really like the auto switching so I don't have to
worry about finding the speaker phone button. I haven't had much trouble at
all with this feature malfunctioning. This is on my 4s, let's see how the
5s does with this.
Best regards,
Rick Alfaro
-Original
Hey guys,
This is a very concerning problem. I can't get through the list of my text
messages.
I open messages, and keep swiping to the right as I always have, I see
search, compose and all that.
I'll get to the 1st message knowing there are many more in the list. When I
swipe to the right
Thanks Sieghard,
I guess in the avalanch of email I missed that others were having this
problem, and I agree that it is one of the more annoying glitches in
the new ios.
I will definitely send an email to apple accessibility and add my
voice to the chorus requesting a quick fix.
Thanks again
These 4 finger swipes work on iPad but not on iPhones. They work fine on my
iPad mini. There are a few other multi-fingered gestures that are iPad
specific which makes sense to me due to the difference in screen sizes.
Best regards,
Rick Alfaro
-Original Message-
From:
Hello Anouk,
Your best option is to send a request including your receipt which you
received by email to itunesstoresupp...@apple.com. Make sure you explain in
detail that you are blind and that the app is not accessible with Voiceover.
You should probably also take a bit of time and search the
For some reason, the unlocked version of the phones does not appear
until a month or 2 later. That's kind of surprising since they are
definitely made, they are already available in Europe. You could
probably get one from ebay but you may end up paying more for it.
Original message:
I didn't
Yes I tried Siri, She can't turn on Zoom, she just points you to the
Accessibility settings.
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Hi Fred,
That is very baffling because if I go into Settings, SIRI and then double
tap on Voice Gender I can select either male or female (Voiceover will
announce which one is selected and I can press and hold the home key right
from that screen and ask a question like What is the time and I get
Hi; maybe I mist the email; but I can't find anyplace where you can hand
write messages etc.; Can someone tell me where I can find this?; Thanks
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I had the same problem on my iPhone 5. Reduced motion really helped ~Sharonda
Sent from my iPhone; please excuse all mistakes
On Sep 23, 2013, at 7:01 AM, Kimber Gardner kimbersinbox1...@gmail.com
wrote:
Thanks Sieghard,
I guess in the avalanch of email I missed that others were
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the response. I thought I could check on it before he left for work,
but he decided to push the button for the iOS 7 upgrade. He is sighted, so it
should be okay. I'll need to check on the gifted app later on this afternoon.
However, with all of the upgrading, the Apple
You can go into Settings - General - Accessibility - VoiceOver On -
roter and add handwriting to your roter. It'll show up in your roter
when in a edit field. Trace the shape of a letter to input it. A three
finger flick up or down will switch between lower case, upper case,
numbers and
Hi,
I've been using iBooks in a daily bases before and after the update. I haven't
found the particular problem you mention with the titles not showing up on the
store. Sometime, it takes a while (1 minute) or so before the titles are showng
up.
Second question, if your books are always on the
Sorry, with question 2 regarding showing previous books. meant
iBooks, library, collection button and select purchase books.
Joanne Chua
The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion.
Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate
Send from my iPad
On 23/09/2013, at 21:32, Prof. Kadel brad.ka...@gmail.com
Hi Everyone,
Many people have suggested that turning on reduced motion might help with
the Voice Over bugs in IOS7. I have turned on reduced motion, followed by
turning the phone off and back on. I can't tell any difference. I guess
that we are just going to have to live with it until the next
If you want to handwrite open the rotor go to the bottom of the rotor
and enable hand writing then switch the rotor to hand writing while in
the messages app while in a message then use the handwriting feature
to write you're message.
On 9/23/13, Tess tess...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi; maybe I mist
Hi,
This sounds like a strange bug. I cannot reproduce it on my iPhone five. Did
you try turning voiceover off and back on?
All the best,
Ioana
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 23, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Jed Barton j...@jedbarton.com wrote:
Hey guys,
This is a very concerning problem. I
As the subject might suggest, I am having trouble consistently getting the
buttons like back, forward, share, pages, etc. to show up at the bottom of a
Safari window. In iOS 6, I could very easily gget to them by touching right
above the bottom of the screen. I'm using an OtterBox Defender
Hi all,
I solved my spelling problem. For those interested about this, I went to
keyboard settings and noticed that spelling and autocorrect were turned off. I
turned both on and, at least with virtual keyboard I can check spelling as
before.
I am one happy camper!
Best,
Ioana
Hi Jen,
Have you closed all apps in the app switcher and rebooted your phone by
turning it off completely and back on after about 30 seconds?
If not try this and, if you like, send me a message to siegh...@live.ca and
let me know if this made a difference as far as reading through your list of
They are also always available in Canada right from day 1. I can say this
for sure because I preordered my unlocked 4S 2 years ago and just bought an
unlocked 5S 64 Gb on Friday.
Now, I exchanged a few messages with a gentleman named Brice last week who I
believe was from North or South Carolina
I was wondering, does this same problem happen on the Ipod touch 5th
generation?
-Original Message-
From: Kimber Gardner
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 7:01 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: VO skipping pages on my 4s
Thanks Sieghard,
I guess in the avalanch of email I
Anyone with an iPad. I have upgraded to IOS-7. I have gone to the app store and
asked for my apps on my iPhone to sync them to my iPad. If an app is not listed
in the list, does that mean it won't work on iPad? I went into app store and
checked Dice World and Hanging with Friends, and found it
Apple accessibility can use left and right swipes to move between contacts and
email addresses in mail using VoiceOver in iOS 7
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Hello Kimber,
When you mentioned that the reading experience seems more natural to you do
you mean with voiceover or in braille? This is a subject I am following with
great interest as I will have to make a decision about one of these methods
for school and wanted to get peoples' opinions on
Hi,
Those buttons disappear the farther you scroll down a webpage in iOS 7. The
most consistent way I’ve found to get them to return is to do 2 or 3 extra
swipes down with 3 fingers once you know you’re at the top of the page.
I hope this helps.
On Sep 23, 2013, at 10:25 AM, Arianna
I'm not sure where this is coming from that this is only a VO feature.
Non-VO users can have auto-switching as well.
I personally have always liked this feature and would never never never want to
see it go! :)
A setting would certainly be welcome but that would be as far as I personally
It doesn't help that much I don't think.
Sandra
Braille Greeting Cards
www.braille-greetings-cards.co.uk
- Original Message -
From: Scott Duck
To: iPhone List
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 3:37 PM
Subject: Reduced Motion in IOS 7
Hi Everyone,
Many people have
Hi,
It also works flawlessly on my iPhone 4.
Just to let you know the problem is likely on your device.
Ron Danvers
Falling down is part of LIFE...
Getting back up is LIVING...
-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of
Hi if you order one for Tmobile is unlocked Especially if you pay the whole
price for it
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 23, 2013, at 4:50 AM, Vicky Collins v-coll...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
I didn't rush to order the 5s this time. But, rather, finding that none of my
family members would want my
This is just a test. Having trouble with outgoing mail.
Sent from Esther's Amazing iPhone!
On Sep 23, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Daniel Miller miller...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
Those buttons disappear the farther you scroll down a webpage in iOS 7. The
most consistent way I’ve found to get them to
I did this last night, and the game works really well. I'm enjoying it
immensely.
Shannon
On Sep 23, 2013, at 7:11 AM, Jack Conti jackco...@cox.net wrote:
yes works well here Phil thank you... At 11:09 PM 9/22/2013, you wrote:
Hi Folks,
Aaron and Brad on the Audio Games forum have written
Hi,
I recommend trying both to see what reading experience you prefer. As far as
Voiceover speech, there’s really no difference in my opinion. They both do
continuous reading. In iBooks, you might find it easier to navigate via table
of contents in books since this is not always provided in
Where exactly is the Search button in Safari? It seems that it has
been moved. Thank you.
Sharonda
On 9/23/13, Esther Levegnale elevegn...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
This is just a test. Having trouble with outgoing mail.
Sent from Esther's Amazing iPhone!
On Sep 23, 2013, at 1:09 PM, Daniel
I'm wondering what exactly people are having trouble with in the new calendar?
I do personally have things I'd like to see done a bit differently but
depending on what you're after, here are a few tips.
When you open the calendar, the day you have selected will automatically be the
one shown,
Thanks, Segert, it is true that if I ask a question I now get the male
voice, however I guess I expected the voice coming out of the phone all the
time, not just when I asked it a question would be the male voice.
Fred Olver
Author of Dealing with Vision Loss
have a look it just makes
Hello all,
I was wondering, if anyone has experienced this while reading webpages in
Sarari on iOS 7? I have *some* vision and can see when the page moves and
the box is around what voice over is reading. Now, since I've updated both
my iPhone 4s and iPad 3rd gen when reading web pages both in
Hi Alia,
You would be looking at the braille pen 12, the seika 16, the focus 14, and the
refreshabraille 18. The ones I have experience with are the focus 14,
refreshabraille 18 and braillepen 12.
The refreshabraille is my personal favourite, having 18 baum style cells with
routing, a full
Another quick way to get the buttons to reappear is To do a double tap on the
top of the screen. It will scroll to the top of the page and make the buttons
reappear. Note that it will say in an accurate page number for the page that
you're on. Hope this helps,
Mike
Twitter michaelsreiser
I would use both apps and get a free book through each and try it out on your
devices to see which you like best.
Both are good.
Laura Ann
On Sep 23, 2013, at 11:26 AM, Shai shai...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Kimber,
When you mentioned that the reading experience seems more natural to you do
Not really, except that when I need to go to another page! the links are
hard to find at that point. Plus it's a little funny to not see the page
moving and have an idea of knowing where you are in the text. And if it
hits a picture it acts funny. Katey
A true friend is someone who reaches
HI. does it affect the way voice over reads?
Blessings!
maria and Joe chapman
Email, iMessage fb: bubbygirl1...@gmail.com
twitter: bubbygirl
On 24/09/2013, at 3:36 AM, Katey Glass katey...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello all,
I was wondering, if anyone has experienced this while reading
Hi Kimber,
I agree the calendar is crucial and I totally understand your frustration.
You can get a sort of month view by backing out of the day view and flicking up
and down using heading navigation,
Also, On the day screen, you can use a three-finger swipe up and down to move
you through,
Hello! I am traveling on my own via airplane in the middle of October. I am
interested to hear about any flight information applications to provide
information about gate changes. I will be flying United airlines. Any help you
can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Hope
Sent from my iPhone
Good evening all.
Since yesterday, my iPhone 4 will spontaneously activate Voice Control,
even though I only tapped the home button and not held it down. This is
happening in the lock screen up to now. It's sure frustrating as I could
be making an unsuspecting call. It's not doing it all the
I use kindle app on IPhone or iPad for kindle books and purchase audible books
linked to amazon account and then read them if I choose on a digital recorder.
I don't really use the whisper sink but my mom and I share the kindle account
so she also is reading the kindle books.
Works for us.
I
Laura,
I've not done Kindle as a way to get to Audible books, as I've not heard
anything about the accessibility of WhisperSync. I like iBooks a little better,
as you can flick around the screen a bit more.
Ben
On Sep 23, 2013, at 5:48 AM, Laura ann Grymes techca...@gmail.com wrote:
I enjoy
Hi all,
Don't forget you can always tap on the bottom left hand corner of the screen
to access the first item on your dock. You can then swipe once to the left
to access the control that will allow you to switch from one homepage to
another. Swipe up once to go to your next Home screen. You
I don't have a braille display yet, but I love both kindle and ibooks. There
is much more choice that way.
regards
Maria and crew from australia
email:
bubbygirl1...@gmail.com
check out
www.95-the-mix.com
where we play lots of great music
On 24/09/2013, at 2:31 AM, Ricardo Walker
Hi Hope, I like to use flighttrack.
HTH,
Penny
On 9/23/13, Hope Paulos hope.pau...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello! I am traveling on my own via airplane in the middle of October. I am
interested to hear about any flight information applications to provide
information about gate changes. I will be
This may be obvious, but I was just reminded by a friend to use siri to
check my calendar events. It works like a charm. I just said, Check my
calendar for the week, and got the whole week's events. Easy solution, at
least for me.
God bless!
Paula and Babe
-Original Message-
From:
Kirsten
Sent from my iPhone
On 23 Sep 2013, at 03:37, Jonathan Mosen jmo...@mosen.org wrote:
Hi Carol, yes that's right.
Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org
On 23/09/2013, at 9:51 AM, Carol Pearson
No could be an issue with your carrier.
On 23/09/2013 18:53, Regina Alvarado wrote:
Having difficulty sending texts. Keep getting undeliverable messages and need
to try again. Is this a known bug?
reggie and Allegra
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the VIPhone
On the point about not using VO Calendar because it was designed with
the VO user in mind, I have a different opinion. The App Store is full
of calendar alternatives, and people choose a calendar app based on how
well it works for them. I understand the sentiment to use off the shelf
products
Hello Listers,
I have an iPhone 4s iOS previous to the 7 update. When in the app store, How
do I go about reading what's new in an update when an update comes out?
Thanks
Michael
Windows Live ID:
mikeam...@earthlink.net
e-mail:
mikeam...@earthlink.net
Skype ID:
mikeameli
John F. Kennedy
Ask
I haven't seen this problem myself.
On 09/23/2013 12:53 PM, Regina Alvarado wrote:
Having difficulty sending texts. Keep getting undeliverable messages and need
to try again. Is this a known bug?
reggie and Allegra
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Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
--
You received this message
Hi Cara,
Well, the colen works the same way. Just put 2 periods one above the other
but you have to do it very quickly otherwise, only one will appear.
Ron Danvers
Falling down is part of LIFE...
Getting back up is LIVING...
From: viphone@googlegroups.com
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