Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:08 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
From Mr. Fink
It seems to me that traditional cases of demon
possession over the centuries have been more common
with more documentations than
in fakes.
Jeff
-Original Message-
From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:57 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
Terry sez:
Absolutely one of the best descriptions of sudden self
Hi Harry,
I think some of the abductions are related to the experience of
sleep paralysis. This is when you awake from sleep but find you are
incapable of moving. It is a frightening feeling.
I've experienced sleep paralysis. I think many have. Indeed, the first
couple of times I experienced
From Mr. Fink
You were right to ultimately conclude that it was not Jesus, but it was
something that a true psychic channeler would know very well. There
are fake channelers too who are not connected to the spirit world.
For every real thing that exists in this world, there are hucksters
Hi Jeff,
I have never experienced sleep paralysis, but my wife did once,
and it was not nearly so benign as yours.
It was the summer of 1970 in Virginia after an early morning
thunder storm. I left early for some errands: my wife slept in.
When she woke up, she could move nothing but her
the
perpetrators have lured us by putting a scientific flavor on it.
Jeff
-Original Message-
From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net]
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:19 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
From Mr
: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net
]
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:19 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
From Mr. Blanton:
John, [Mack] G-d rest his soul, also believed, much like you,
that abductions were not totally physical
-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:00 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
Jeff, a significant difference exists between the UFO observations and
demon possession
On Aug 4, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Jeff Fink wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 4:00 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
Jeff, a significant difference exists
From Mr. Fink
It seems to me that traditional cases of demon
possession over the centuries have been more common
with more documentations than the UFO/abductions we
have today. Couldn't this all be a new twist on an
old theme? Perhaps we tend to embrace this new stuff
and reject the
Terry sez:
Absolutely one of the best descriptions of sudden self-actualization I
have ever read. I, too, experienced something similar at about 19 yrs
old.
Actually, Terry, I have a confession to make. I must recount the true-story
of a deeply buried memory.
You be the judge! ;-)
: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 9:56 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
Terry sez:
Absolutely one of the best descriptions of sudden self-
actualization I
have ever read. I, too, experienced something similar at about
19 yrs
old.
Actually, Terry, I have a confession to make. I must
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent
Johnsonorionwo...@charter.net wrote:
Scenario 1)
Scenario 2)
Scenario 3 was put forth by one of the remote viewers of fame, the
name of exactly which one escapes me. He purports that the aliens are
actually time travelers from our
From Mr. Storms
Steven, are you suggesting the something else is
imagination or a mind probe by the aliens without physical contact?
Why either/or?
It seems plausible for me to speculate that some of the somethings may
indeed be of our own imagination. But then, as we are beginning to learn,
From Mr. Blanton:
John, [Mack] G-d rest his soul, also believed, much like you,
that abductions were not totally physical. He thought it might
be only the spirit that was abducted.
I experienced a my own personal Mack of the 3rd kind encounter when I
briefly brushed past the venerable doctor
From Mr. Blanton
BTW, I don't have a lot of respect for Schmitt.
Are you aware of his falling out with Dr. Kevin Randall,
his former partner?
...
More than I had wished! I had many private email exchanges with Mr. Randle
back in the 90s in regards to the aftermath of this sordid affair.
Terry sez:
(So, Steven, considering your glint of denial, could you be an
experiencer? Ever had an event of missing time? ;-)
Me??? In denial??? I am not Take that back! :-)
Alas, I'm afraid I must disappoint the few (VERY few, I'm sure) who might
have wondered if I'm a closet abductee.
From Terry:
Scenario 3 was put forth by one of the remote viewers of fame, the
name of exactly which one escapes me. He purports that the aliens are
actually time travelers from our future. The human race altered their
DNA intentionally to try to eliminate all those nasty human
Absolutely one of the best descriptions of sudden self-actualization I
have ever read. I, too, experienced something similar at about 19 yrs
old.
Bravo!
Terry
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 8:19 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent
Johnsonorionwo...@charter.net wrote:
May the following essay,
- Original Message -
From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009 9:19 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
From Mr. Blanton:
John, [Mack] G-d rest his soul, also believed, much like you,
that abductions were not totally
--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote:
state of mind.
If you're going to use English to communicate with others,
please use
the words to mean what we all agree that they mean.
snip
time is not a state of mind.
snip
A country mile is not an hour.
snip
And
Without commenting on individual abduction cases, the general descriptions of
aliens fits what I would expect from an extremely advanced technological
culture. Such as:
Minimized Individuality ( or none!) Take a good look at our technology and
consider that we have progressed from spears to
Kyle Mcallister wrote:
--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote:
state of mind.
If you're going to use English to communicate with others, please
use the words to mean what we all agree that they mean.
snip
time is not a state of mind.
snip
A country mile
From Mr Lawrance:
You don't sound like an annoying broken record. To be blunt, you sound
silly, asking that. I don't think there's any disagreement at all over
what would constitute an authentic alien artifact -- it would be a
piece of litter left by an authentic alien, and an authentic
From Mr. Lawrence,
...
Just some idle off-the-wall speculation follows...a fable of sorts:
...
They pondered these issues for a millennium or two, or perhaps it was
for only a couple of microseconds - time can be such an ephemeral
state of mind.
If you're going to use English to
One of the most well-known and examined artifacts is from the crash at
Ubatuba, Brazil:
http://ufologie.net/htm/ubatuba57.htm
The examination of some of the material:
http://www.nicap.org/ubatubanal.htm
Terry
On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Stephen A. Lawrencesa...@pobox.com wrote:
From Mr. Zell,
Without commenting on individual abduction cases, the general descriptions
of aliens fits what I would expect from an extremely advanced technological
culture. Such as:
Minimized Individuality ( or none!) Take a good look at our technology
and consider that we have
From Mr. Lawrence:
...
I was objecting to a discussion of the *definition* of an alien
artifact, not to the question of whether we've got some. And it is
also quite possible that I totally missed your point.
Let's go back to some previous comments in an attempt to pick up our
discussions
From Mr. Blanton:
One of the most well-known and examined artifacts is from the crash at
Ubatuba, Brazil:
http://ufologie.net/htm/ubatuba57.htm
The examination of some of the material:
http://www.nicap.org/ubatubanal.htm
Excerpt:
These tests indicated that the material was very pure
There are distinct physical aspects common among many experiencers
which are known by investigators but are not shared with the public.
It serves as a test of the experience. It has to do with the
surroundings seen by the victim and certain events that occur during
the examination.
AFAIK,
From Mr. Blanton,
There are distinct physical aspects common among many experiencers
which are known by investigators but are not shared with the public.
It serves as a test of the experience. It has to do with the
surroundings seen by the victim and certain events that occur during
the
Steven, it really helps not to have a ready made explanation, such as
you have, when evaluating the UFO events. Such expected notions cause
a person to reject data, perhaps subconsciously. For example, you
would like the phenomenon to involve some kind multi-dimensional
reality. You then
Ackshully, it was Budd Hopkins who first was criticized for extensive
use of hypnotic recall, (Witnessed the case of Linda Cortile
(Napolitano)). But, then again, Dr. John Mack used a similar,
although somewhat far-eastern version of hypnosis.
John, G-d rest his soul, also believed, much like
Years ago Ripley's Believe it or Not reported that a person went out in
their yard one day and found a small pile of metal pieces all shaped like
the letter E.
What were they?
How did they get there?
Could they be of alien origin?
They offered no answer.
Anybody want to guess?
Think about
On Aug 2, 2009, at 8:01 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
From Mr. Storms
Steven, it really helps not to have a ready made explanation, such as
you have, when evaluating the UFO events. Such expected notions cause
a person to reject data, perhaps subconsciously. For example, you
OrionWorks wrote:
I'm under the impression that you have not looked into this subject to
any great extent.
That is correct. That's why I asked how many pilots have reported anomalies.
. . . your comments about the reliability of the pilots you've known seems
uncharacteristically anecdotal.
Or that what we observe is a three dimensional intersection of a
multi-dimensional object. Flatworlders would observe a growing and
shrinking circle as a sphere passed through their reality.
Terry
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:35 PM, OrionWorkssvj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote:
Reminds me of another
From Jed:
OrionWorks wrote:
I'm under the impression that you have not looked into this subject to
any great extent.
That is correct. That's why I asked how many pilots have reported anomalies.
. . . your comments about the reliability of the pilots you've known seems
Allow me to point out that some of these incidents wherein people went
apeshit with delusions had a basis in fact. In Europe and possibly in the
Witch trials in early America, Huntington's disease was undiagnosed:
http://curehd.blogspot.com/2008/08/roots-of-our-stigma.html
As for other
this if there actually were some. Maybe the universe to this point really
is an awful waste of space.
Jeff
-Original Message-
From: OrionWorks [mailto:svj.orionwo...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:05 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
[mailto:svj.orionwo...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:05 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
From Jed:
OrionWorks wrote:
I'm under the impression that you have not looked into this
subject to
any great extent.
That is correct. That's why I asked how many
There is an interesting book called The Science of Extraterrestrials by Eric
Julien. It goes with the temporal bubble idea.
There's a notion I have about weird phenomena that I avoided discussing because
it is so difficult to articulate. It concerns reductionism. By its very
nature, science
Edmund Storms wrote:
But Jeff, artifacts do exist. They have been seen by people and
described in detail. Granted, you are not allowed to see them, but is
that required ...
Of course, in the realm of science, actually seeing something is not
necessary to believe in it. However, in general,
-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 12:00 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
But Jeff, artifacts do exist. They have been seen by people and
described in detail
Of course your point is good, Steven. If the hidden artifacts were
the only evidence, believing the UFO claims would be impossible. But,
let's use you example. Suppose people could drive up to your house
and see that the lights are on but you are not hooked to the grid or
to any other
Chris Zell wrote:
I don't understand how the whole of medicine can rest on the assumption
that simple diffusion can get extremely small doses of medicine to the
proper receptors. Like DNA telekinesis?
I guess you've never been involved with setting doses through titration,
then. It's not
On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Jeff Fink wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 12:00 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
But Jeff, artifacts do exist. They have
Edmund Storms wrote:
Of course your point is good, Steven. If the hidden artifacts were the
only evidence, believing the UFO claims would be impossible. But, let's
use you example. Suppose people could drive up to your house and see
that the lights are on but you are not hooked to the
-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 1:58 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
On Aug 1, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Jeff Fink wrote:
-Original Message-
From
As to titration and medicine, you don't understand what I mean. A long time
ago, Bill Beaty commented on this problem - and the recent report on DNA
segments 'just knowing where to go' illustrates the issue.
You have positive and negative charges, attraction and repulsion and this is
From Mr. Fink
...
Then why are we not being contacted by real aliens?
The Conundrum brought to our attention by Jeff in a sense goes to the
heart of what I've tried to explore in my hypothesis.
We have a problem agreeing on what is real. If we cannot agree on what
is real it is unlikely that
From Mr. Zell
In short, it may send chills up the spines of many academics to
say so but one day, the bill for Promissary Materialism is going
to come due for payment in full. When that happens ghosts,
reincarnation, UFOs, poltergeists and heaven knows what else may
look very different.
From Mr. Lawrence:
...
Here, let me make this more concrete: I have a perpetual motion
machine in my basement. I can describe what it does, and how
wonderfully it works. I'll explain to you how I've tied it into
my house wiring, and how I no longer have to pay anything for my
From Mr. Storms:
...
Who is doing this planting of coordinated vision? Who wants us to
believe in aliens? The government is doing everything it can to kill
this belief.
Just some idle off-the-wall speculation follows...a fable of sorts:
Once upon a time there existed a civilization millions
From Mr. Fink:
...
You and most people on this list are not going to like my answer to
this. Demons (evil spirits) and their hosts are intending to masquerade
as benevolent aliens in the near future. The victims thus far are not
the hosts but pawns.
A brief epilogue to my previous
OrionWorks wrote:
From Mr. Lawrence:
...
Here, let me make this more concrete: I have a perpetual motion
machine in my basement. I can describe what it does, and how
wonderfully it works. I'll explain to you how I've tied it into
my house wiring, and how I no longer have to pay
OrionWorks wrote:
From Mr. Storms:
...
Who is doing this planting of coordinated vision? Who wants us to
believe in aliens? The government is doing everything it can to kill
this belief.
Just some idle off-the-wall speculation follows...a fable of sorts:
Once upon a time there
As to hallucinations, there have been a number of people since the '60's who
function very well in responsible jobs despite having them. You may not hear
much about them since the problem can be an embarrassment. They quickly
understand to ignore walls moving as if breathing or rainbow
Good arguments, Chris. However, I find the human mind typically
resists ideas that are too far from personal experience. We can't do
anything about this resistance in a general way. We can only work to
overcome this genetic limitation in ourselves and learn to avoid
people who cannot go
Chris Zell wrote:
As to hallucinations, there have been a number of people since the
'60's who function very well in responsible jobs despite having them.
People who understand what hallucinations are, and who have been
warned to expect them, may not be fooled. People not expecting them,
Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.
From Mr. Storms:
But, Steven, the experience is important. It is either real
or it isn't. If it is real, it means the earth has been and
is being influenced by intelligent beings from another planet
for a long time, with all that this
Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.
From Mr. Lawrence:
The question to be considered is, what causes them? Is
it aliens, in the case of abductions? Is it God, in the
case of theophanies? Or is it some internal change in
state, like, say, a sudden drop in GABA levels in the
Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.
From Mr. Roarty:
Ed, I have to say that my temporal lens idea better
fits the known facts regarding electromagnetic observations,
be they visual or radar and may even allow some physical
contact although the lack of physical evidence suggests
Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.
From Mr. Rothwell:
There is no likelihood that abductions are hoaxes.
There are countless other experiences in the past,
such as people who thought they were visited by witches
and succubuses and so on, which were obviously false
memories of
Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.
From Mr. Rothwell, responding to Mr. Storms
In the case of the UFO experience, the shared
experience is overwhelming.
If UFOs are delusions, we would expect the delusion
to be shared (stereotyped) and widespread. That's
why so many people
Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.
From Mr. Lacy
What you said is similar to what Carl Jung said related
to the UFO/alien experience:
The UFO/alien is an image of the human soul.
You don't say! I was aware that Jung wrote a book on the UFO subject
but I haven't read it yet.
Selected valued comments from the Peanut Gallery.
From Mr. Rothwell
Likewise, many of the most dramatic encounters come from
airline pilots or law enforcement officers or those
charged with defense of our nation . . .
Approximately how many incidents have their been? What is
the frequency?
From Mr. Lawrence:
If alien abductions -- which are pretty rare -- are
taken as convincing proof of the existence of aliens,
shouldn't theophanies -- which are rather common, certainly
far more common than alien abductions -- be taken as
convincing proof of the existence of God? (The people
From: Edmund Storms
I have no idea what you mean Steven when you say
The experience IS what it IS.
It was my somewhat crude attempt to suggest that such experiences not
be judged. They are what they are. Judging such experiences as
either authentic or false messages from aliens or god, in a
OrionWorks wrote:
From: Edmund Storms
I have no idea what you mean Steven when you say
The experience IS what it IS.
It was my somewhat crude attempt to suggest that such experiences not
be judged. They are what they are. Judging such experiences as
either authentic or false messages
But, Steven, the experience is important. It is either real or it
isn't. If it is real, it means the earth has been and is being
influenced by intelligent beings from another planet for a long time,
with all that this implies. If the experience is not real, it means
that we cannot trust
Snip: Of course, people with imagination will
suggest all kinds of explanations. The number of crazy ideas should
not distract serious investigators from seeing the most obvious
conclusion, i.e. that life has evolved on many planets and some of
this life is more advanced than we are..
Fran, in proposing your explanation, you conveniently ignore a large
amount of the evidence. In addition, a temporal lens effect should
show a lot more than just a few UFOs. We should see a variety of
objects and events, which is clearly not the case. A theory is not
worth considering if
It also does away with much of the high G reports of UFO's in that it
means that size and distance is relative to the observers distance to
the focal window - since we assume the craft is miles away while the
image is actually floating to the surface of a nearby temporal window we
misinterpret the
Edmund Storms wrote:
If the experience is not real, it means that we cannot trust our
eyes, our memory or even radar to correctly determine reality.
I do not know about radar but there is abundant proof that we cannot
trues our eyes or memory to determine reality. This is why science
must
the future we may be up against the distance to the horizon and
intervening structures that haven't even been built yet.
Fran
-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 3:27 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT
While I agree that people can suffer from hallucinations and false
memory, this explanation must not and is not used to explain all
strange experiences. Society uses personal experience as a basis for
judging reality with reasonable success, including yourself Jed.
Otherwise you would have
Edmund Storms wrote:
While I agree that people can suffer from hallucinations and false
memory, this explanation must not and is not used to explain all
strange experiences.
I am not familiar with the dataset of modern strange experiences, or
the radar and physical evidence. But I am 100%
OrionWorks wrote:
...
However, I've come around to the suspicion that the majority of alien
abduction experiences are the result of a timeless, ancient
phenomenon, a unique and valid human experience that is just as
real, and IMHO, a possibly whole lot more important.
...
At present there
We don't know that it doesn't. One theory is that everyone has been
abducted, sampled and tagged.
Terry
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Harry Veederhvee...@ncf.ca wrote:
The 'threat' might be taken more seriously if the number of
people abducted each year exceeded the number of people killed
From Harry Veeder:
The 'threat' might be taken more seriously if the number of
people abducted each year exceeded the number of people killed
in car accidents.
From Terry
We don't know that it doesn't. One theory is that everyone has been
abducted, sampled and tagged.
Both Harry and
Sorry; I was feeling crabby when I wrote that last letter about alien
abductions.
But now that I've thrown a rock in the pond, I have a pebble to throw in
after it:
If alien abductions -- which are pretty rare -- are taken as convincing
proof of the existence of aliens, shouldn't theophanies --
Well written essay. Of all the researchers, John Mack, Budd Hopkins,
Whitley Streiber, it is David Jacobs' view that frightens me the most.
Have you read The Threat?
Anyway, he has a web site:
http://www.ufoabduction.com/
Terry
On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 9:11 PM,
I too have studied and given lot of thought to the UFO phenomenon.
Steven has provided a good description of many of my conclusions, so I
won't try to add anything except to ask one question. Why do people
have such a difficult time accepting such a well documented
phenomenon? To start
Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
I too have studied and given lot of thought to the UFO phenomenon.
Steven has provided a good description of many of my conclusions, so I
won't try to add anything except to ask one question. Why do people
have such a difficult time accepting
of temporal telescope where
the
observer catches glimpses of these everyday spacecraft from our
future.
Fran
-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 11:56 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT
MUFON has their 40th anniversary symposium in Denver in August:
http://www.mufon.com/
I used to be the MUFON moderator on a CompuServe forum (so many years ago!)
Terry
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Edmund Stormsstor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
You can probably find out about this effort on
, July 27, 2009 12:44 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
Hi Fran,
If you want to explain a phenomenon, you need to be aware of all the
evidence, not just that which fits a model. Physical evidence has
been found, a few UFO have been shot down
maintained for so long.
Fran
-Original Message-
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 12:44 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Edmund Storms
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction Paradigm
Hi Fran,
If you want to explain a phenomenon, you need to be aware
The 'threat' might be taken more seriously if the number of
people abducted each year exceeded the number of people killed
in car accidents.
Harry
- Original Message -
From: Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com
Date: Monday, July 27, 2009 11:56 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Abduction
Indeed, it's been an interesting slo Sunday.
As is probably evident by some within the catacombs of the Vort
Collective, I have occasionally expressed a few opinions on this
so-called abduction matter. So, off the races I go once again in the
hope that the following thought fodder might stimulate
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