Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
So, if I understand you correctly, patent protection doesn't work. So why do we bother with an expensive patent office and all those millions (billions?) of patents?
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
BTW, Defkalion scheduled the announcement for Wednesday. 2011/11/28 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com So, if I understand you correctly, patent protection doesn't work. So why do we bother with an expensive patent office and all those millions (billions?) of patents? -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
U.S. Constitution Article I, Section 8 Ripple~Effects New York 212~924~5996 .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it So, if I understand you correctly, patent protection doesn't work. So why do we bother with an expensive patent office and all those millions (billions?) of patents?
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
experience of small companies owning patents, or small inventors owning patents, is that big corps usually find a way to get around, especially when collaborating with the inventor before. (It is why the inventor of smartcard get out of France, feeling abused by his big partner) I'm sure that Rossi won't be able to block similar devices if it works. patents are also used to block small companies, by fear of legal battle (that they will win, but after being bankrupted). I'm sure that if a big corp own a patent, no small will dare to innovate (alone) in the domain. il also helps big companies to block good (or bad) patent infrigement accusation, but making bad counter accusations... (see Apple/MS/intel/samsung battles) the expensive patent office are mostly useful for big corp, to maintain dominance of the big corp. strategic for the nation! small inventors seldom succeed alone, but there are some lucky guys.few. 2011/11/28 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com So, if I understand you correctly, patent protection doesn't work. So why do we bother with an expensive patent office and all those millions (billions?) of patents?
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Patents in themselves give the inventor no real commercial protection unless they have the funds and time to defend it in court. Investors like to see patents, so maybe they do have a use. AG On 11/29/2011 3:46 AM, Alain dit le Cycliste wrote: experience of small companies owning patents, or small inventors owning patents, is that big corps usually find a way to get around, especially when collaborating with the inventor before. (It is why the inventor of smartcard get out of France, feeling abused by his big partner) I'm sure that Rossi won't be able to block similar devices if it works. patents are also used to block small companies, by fear of legal battle (that they will win, but after being bankrupted). I'm sure that if a big corp own a patent, no small will dare to innovate (alone) in the domain. il also helps big companies to block good (or bad) patent infrigement accusation, but making bad counter accusations... (see Apple/MS/intel/samsung battles) the expensive patent office are mostly useful for big corp, to maintain dominance of the big corp. strategic for the nation! small inventors seldom succeed alone, but there are some lucky guys.few. 2011/11/28 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com mailto:maryyu...@gmail.com So, if I understand you correctly, patent protection doesn't work. So why do we bother with an expensive patent office and all those millions (billions?) of patents?
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: Patents in themselves give the inventor no real commercial protection unless they have the funds and time to defend it in court. Investors like to see patents, so maybe they do have a use. Rossi could patent the secret sauce -- it's just the sort of thing one can patent effectively and he's not tried to.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
And how do you know that is the case? I would suggest he has. Even better to do it as a provisional. Rossi then gets another 12 months to keep it secret yet establishes a worldwide priority date. AG On 11/29/2011 9:51 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Patents in themselves give the inventor no real commercial protection unless they have the funds and time to defend it in court. Investors like to see patents, so maybe they do have a use. Rossi could patent the secret sauce -- it's just the sort of thing one can patent effectively and he's not tried to.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: And how do you know that is the case? I would suggest he has. Even better to do it as a provisional. Rossi then gets another 12 months to keep it secret yet establishes a worldwide priority date. How do I know what is the case? That he hasn't? If he had filed for a patent, someone would have found it and posted it. Also, he would not be worried about having the device properly tested.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Provisionals do not have high visibility. I know. I use them. On 11/29/2011 10:46 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com mailto:aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: And how do you know that is the case? I would suggest he has. Even better to do it as a provisional. Rossi then gets another 12 months to keep it secret yet establishes a worldwide priority date. How do I know what is the case? That he hasn't? If he had filed for a patent, someone would have found it and posted it. Also, he would not be worried about having the device properly tested.
RE: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
From Jed: What would be the advantage to Rossi if he provided a conclusive test? The advantage would be that people would believe him. If he did not want to be believed, why has he gone through all the demonstrations he has done thus far with invited guests including press and scientists? Look, this really is not complicated. He wants to be believed a little, by some groups of people, so that he can sell them reactors. He does not want to be believed by everyone at this time. Many other inventors such as Edison and Patterson did the same thing for the same reasons. FWIW it appears that Saddam Hussein followed a similar strategy of misdirection in regards to weapons of mass destruction. This is based on hindsight analysis - when we tried to figure out why we got it so wrong and ended up invading Iraq at the needless cost of thousands of lives. However, a major difference between Saddam and Rossi was that in Saddam's case he was trying to convince neighboring adversaries of the fact that he HAD them (so that they would continue to fear him and not invade), while simultaneously trying to convince everyone else of the act that he didn't possess any. I guess one could say that in Saddam's case he got mixed results. I guess one could say the same about Rossi, but then, the jury is still out on that one. ;-) Be that as it may, it is clear that tactics of misdirection and disinformation are used all the time both in covert warfare and in matters of covert business strategy. It would appear that any corporation that wants to remain in business had better be prepared to play the game. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
That's fine, but then Rossi and his believers need to quit complaining or expressing alarm when folks see this misdirection and reasonably interpret it as evidence of a scam. They should admit that fraud is a rational conclusion. On Nov 27, 2011, at 13:05, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: From Jed: What would be the advantage to Rossi if he provided a conclusive test? The advantage would be that people would believe him. If he did not want to be believed, why has he gone through all the demonstrations he has done thus far with invited guests including press and scientists? Look, this really is not complicated. He wants to be believed a little, by some groups of people, so that he can sell them reactors. He does not want to be believed by everyone at this time. Many other inventors such as Edison and Patterson did the same thing for the same reasons. FWIW it appears that Saddam Hussein followed a similar strategy of misdirection in regards to weapons of mass destruction. This is based on hindsight analysis - when we tried to figure out why we got it so wrong and ended up invading Iraq at the needless cost of thousands of lives. However, a major difference between Saddam and Rossi was that in Saddam's case he was trying to convince neighboring adversaries of the fact that he HAD them (so that they would continue to fear him and not invade), while simultaneously trying to convince everyone else of the act that he didn't possess any. I guess one could say that in Saddam's case he got mixed results. I guess one could say the same about Rossi, but then, the jury is still out on that one. ;-) Be that as it may, it is clear that tactics of misdirection and disinformation are used all the time both in covert warfare and in matters of covert business strategy. It would appear that any corporation that wants to remain in business had better be prepared to play the game. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: That's fine, but then Rossi and his believers need to quit complaining or expressing alarm when folks see this misdirection and reasonably interpret it as evidence of a scam. Misdirection is routinely practiced by most businesses. IBM was famous for it back in the 1970s. For example, they would announce an initiative which they never intended to follow through on, in order to stop a competitor. This is mean spirited, and perhaps unfair, but it is not unethical, and it certainly not a scam. Unless you hold that most corporations are engaged in scams. I do not think this is evidence. This is your opinion, or your gut feeling of distrust. I do not trust Rossi myself (not to do business with him), but I would never glorify this feeling of mine by calling it evidence of anything. It is intuition. I think evidence should mean a body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. That is, objectively verifiable facts in the real world, such as reports that someone has been scammed (or claims to be), or that Rossi has investors who have not performed independent tests of his equipment. Not your feeling that he might have such investors -- or by gosh wouldn't it be just him to have such investors -- but actual names of investors and a credible report about them. Feelings should not be ignored. Intuition is often valuable when making a business decision. But intuition and facts are two very different things. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Ok, replace evidence with reasonable indication, but I believe the original point remains. On Nov 27, 2011, at 16:16, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: That's fine, but then Rossi and his believers need to quit complaining or expressing alarm when folks see this misdirection and reasonably interpret it as evidence of a scam. Misdirection is routinely practiced by most businesses. IBM was famous for it back in the 1970s. For example, they would announce an initiative which they never intended to follow through on, in order to stop a competitor. This is mean spirited, and perhaps unfair, but it is not unethical, and it certainly not a scam. Unless you hold that most corporations are engaged in scams. I do not think this is evidence. This is your opinion, or your gut feeling of distrust. I do not trust Rossi myself (not to do business with him), but I would never glorify this feeling of mine by calling it evidence of anything. It is intuition. I think evidence should mean a body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. That is, objectively verifiable facts in the real world, such as reports that someone has been scammed (or claims to be), or that Rossi has investors who have not performed independent tests of his equipment. Not your feeling that he might have such investors -- or by gosh wouldn't it be just him to have such investors -- but actual names of investors and a credible report about them. Feelings should not be ignored. Intuition is often valuable when making a business decision. But intuition and facts are two very different things. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Hope lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com wrote: That's fine, but then Rossi and his believers need to quit complaining or expressing alarm when folks see this misdirection and reasonably interpret it as evidence of a scam. Misdirection is routinely practiced by most businesses. IBM was famous for it back in the 1970s. For example, they would announce an initiative which they never intended to follow through on, in order to stop a competitor. This is mean spirited, and perhaps unfair, but it is not unethical, and it certainly not a scam. Unless you hold that most corporations are engaged in scams. IBM's vaporware gambit was a scam and the DOJ took IBM to court for it and also Kodak for similar maneuvers. I do not think this is evidence. This is your opinion, or your gut feeling of distrust. I do not trust Rossi myself (not to do business with him), but I would never glorify this feeling of mine by calling it evidence of anything. It is intuition. I think evidence should mean a body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. That is, objectively verifiable facts in the real world, such as reports that someone has been scammed (or claims to be), or that Rossi has investors who have not performed independent tests of his equipment. Interestingly, Steorn's investors have never made a public statement or taken the company or its officers to court and they are most certainly and obviously a scam. Perhaps they're embarrassed. Lack of investor complaints is not necessarily counter evidence for a scam, especially fairly early in its development.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Interestingly, Steorn's investors have never made a public statement or taken the company or its officers to court and they are most certainly and obviously a scam. Getting back to my definition, do you have any evidence for that, where evidence is objectively verifiable facts in the real world? Or is that just your opinion? I do not mean evidence that the Steorn claim is questionable. No one disputes that. I mean evidence that it is not a mistake, and the Steorn people know the device is fake, and someone has been swindled by them. I do not mean your impression or your opinion, I mean a written statement, a confession by someone at Steorn, or a formal complaint. Perhaps they're embarrassed. Or perhaps they still believe. That may be because they are foolish, or -- conceivably -- because it is real and they know it is. Lack of investor complaints is not necessarily counter evidence for a scam, especially fairly early in its development. Are we still early in the Steorn incident? How long does it take? If lack of complaints is not evidence there is nothing wrong, then how can there be any indication there is nothing wrong? If there are complaints, it is a scam. If there are no complaints, it is a scam. As Bill Beaty wrote: Don't trust researchers who study parapsychology. They constantly cheat and lie in order to support their strange worldviews. Very few of them have been caught at it, but it's not necessary to do so, since any fool can see that the positive evidence for psi can only be created by people who are either disturbed or dishonest. http://amasci.com/pathsk2.txt - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: IBM's vaporware gambit was a scam and the DOJ took IBM to court for it and also Kodak for similar maneuvers. As far as I know, the DOJ lost these cases. It would be difficult to prevent this practice. It is widespread in every industry, as are many other forms of misdirection. It would be difficult to prove this crime because you cannot know whether IBM really does intend to develop a product by a certain date. Product RD often runs late, and products are often abandoned. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Mary, you must be real naïve about the business environment You claim that, Ripoffs are far from inevitable and in fact rarely happen from big companies when dealing with established inventions and inventors. And when it does happen, the companies often end up losing in court-- losing big. See for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns Well, I went to the Kearns webpage and it took him 12 YEARS to get a judgment in the first case, which was appealed, but Ford lost, so even though he finally won, and got paid a good amount, IT WAS VERY EXPENSIVE AND TOOK OVER A DECADE TO GET ANYTHING. This is very typical the big companies will drain you of every penny here are the 2 paragraphs from that website about the lawsuits = RE: Robert Kearns He sued Ford Motor Company in 1978 and Chrysler Corporation in 1982 for patent infringement. The Ford case went to trial in 1990. Ford lost, though the court held that Ford's infringement was not willful (meaning that damages for infringement would not be enhanced). Ford agreed to settle with Kearns for US$ 10.1 million with an agreement of no further appeals. After the settlement with Ford, Kearns mostly acted as his own attorney in the subsequent suit against Chrysler, even questioning witnesses on the stand. The Chrysler verdict was decided in 1992, and was a victory for Kearns. Chrysler was ordered to pay Kearns US$ 18.7 million with interest.[7] Chrysler appealed the court decision, but the Federal Circuit let the judgment stand.[8] The Supreme Court declined to hear the case.[9] By 1995, after spending over US$ 10 million in legal fees,[10] Kearns received approximately US$ 30 million in compensation for Chrysler's patent infringement.[7] == Im not a real networking kind of guy, so my network of scientific/techy people is not all that large. Despite that, I know one inventor that started to get royalties from a small chemical company for an inexpensive way to manufacture isoflavones. The royalty checks stopped after just three months because the small chemical company was bought by ADM, and ADM refused to honor the royalty contract. My inventor friend eventually won his case, but it was very time consuming and expensive. I also know a guy who has spent $7M on a lawsuit against Chevron up at Lake Tahoe, and he still is barely hanging on by his fingertips. And all the evidence clearly shows that the Chevron station in Incline Vlg (long since closed) has leaking gasoline storage tanks and caused serious underground pollution youd think it would be a clear-cut case, but they can drag it out for YEARS and make you spend millions and bury you in paperwork and court filings. And finally, my own personal experiences on the Boards of several small startups has been a real eye-opener as to what the legal environment is like should disputes arise. Avoid any litigation if at all possible Im afraid most of your business suggestions (more like assertions) show a clear lack of real-world experience -Mark
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: IBM's vaporware gambit was a scam and the DOJ took IBM to court for it and also Kodak for similar maneuvers. As far as I know, the DOJ lost these cases. It would be difficult to prevent this practice. It is widespread in every industry, as are many other forms of misdirection. It would be difficult to prove this crime because you cannot know whether IBM really does intend to develop a product by a certain date. Product RD often runs late, and products are often abandoned. Not exactly but rather than argue about it, here is a legal web site discussing the whole issue of vaporware. http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/Vaporware.htm The threat of law suits and anti-trust prosecution is quite effective in stopping premature announcements which adversely affect someone else's products. Talking about vapor, it'd be nice if Rossi made more of the real kind and less of the ware variety.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Interestingly, Steorn's investors have never made a public statement or taken the company or its officers to court and they are most certainly and obviously a scam. Getting back to my definition, do you have any evidence for that, where evidence is objectively verifiable facts in the real world? Or is that just your opinion? I do not mean evidence that the Steorn claim is questionable. No one disputes that. I mean evidence that it is not a mistake, and the Steorn people know the device is fake, and someone has been swindled by them. I do not mean your impression or your opinion, I mean a written statement, a confession by someone at Steorn, or a formal complaint. There is lots of evidence that Steorn is a scam and it doesn't involve written statements (by whom were you thinking such statements would be made?), a confession or a formal complaint, none of which by the way would prove a scam. Steorn was scamming because they lied repeatedly and consistently about what the equipment could do well beyond any possibility that it could be an honest mistake. Or do you think if Rossi's machine doesn't work, it will be an honest mistake? Perhaps they're embarrassed. Or perhaps they still believe. That may be because they are foolish, or -- conceivably -- because it is real and they know it is. There not the slightest chance that anything Steorn claimed for Orbo is in the slightest real. With Rossi there is not yet a smoking gun. With Steorn there are maybe a dozen. If you have not followed the Steorn saga, you won't recognize these by name and I have no interest in educating you about them by doing more in the way of work. However a brief off the top of the head list includes (but not limited to): African pump, Kinetica demo, Minato wheel, bearings burned by lights, 550 watt motor under the stairs, 0.5 W/cc power density measured, works all the time, we'll let Dr. Mike take a screwdriver to it, Waterways demo, Ansmann battery and Tachoman, calorimetry non-result, 6 universities tested it but won't go on record, the Steorn jury decision, the never delivered solid state Orbo kits, ClaNZer's tests on his builds, and there's more. You'd have to have followed it to see what a ridiculously transparent scam it was once it developed. Lack of investor complaints is not necessarily counter evidence for a scam, especially fairly early in its development. Are we still early in the Steorn incident? How long does it take? No, we're not early in Steorn's scam. The amount of time it takes to develop complaints depends on the scam. Some never do. If lack of complaints is not evidence there is nothing wrong, then how can there be any indication there is nothing wrong? Are you asking a real question or just talking to hear yourself? That's an absurd question. The obvious indication that there is nothing wrong is if the proponents and participants tell the truth and back up with proper independent testing! That needs me to say it? Are we playing little word games now? If there are complaints, it is a scam. If there are no complaints, it is a scam. You deliberately twist the issue -- not quite sure why bother but it can be a scam with or without complaints. Complaints are simply not determinative of a scam. You can also have the real deal and have complaints. I mean what? You didn't know that? Don't trust researchers who study parapsychology. They constantly cheat and lie in order to support their strange worldviews. Very few of them have been caught at it, but it's not necessary to do so, since any fool can see that the positive evidence for psi can only be created by people who are either disturbed or dishonest. http://amasci.com/pathsk2.txt You have any more straw men? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Mary, you must be real naïve about the business environment… ** ** You claim that, “Ripoffs are far from inevitable and in fact rarely happen from big companies when dealing with established inventions and inventors. And when it does happen, the companies often end up losing in court-- losing big. See for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns” The part you chose to miss is that Kearns was a precedent -- not only was it difficult for Kearns, it was hard on the money and reputation of the big companies and they are not eager to repeat the experience. Nowadays, when someone has a legitimate contract and/or effective patent, they are pretty well protected. If Rossi were worried about patent protection, he would have shown absolutely nothing until he had filed a properly written patent application -- something which, as far as we know, he has not yet done to this day.
RE: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Mary, As is typical with your MO, you're shooting from the hip. You just make up stuff so it appears you have rebutted a person's points, and in this case, you've really f*cked up. The part you chose to miss is that Kearns was a precedent. You missed the whole meaning of the statement you claim I chose to miss. You are referring to the following statement: Kearns' position found unequivocal support in precedent from the U.S. Court of Appeals and from the Supreme Court of the United States. See, e.g., Reiner v. I. Leon Co., 285 F.2d 501, 503 (2d Cir. 1960) This is NOT, I REPEAT, NOT saying that Kearns' case established precedent! Infringement lawsuits have been going on for at least 200 years! WHAT IT IS SAYING is that he had unequivocal support from cases out of the U.S. Court of Appeals and the SupCt!!! One of the cases which Kearns relied on (as precedent) was even cited for you!!! See, e.g., Reiner v. I. Leon Co., 285 F.2d 501, 503 (2d Cir. 1960) I.e., he ended up winning his cases because he was able to cite several PREVIOUS cases similar to his AS PRECEDENT. Don't quit your day job because you'd make a horrible lawyer. Finally, I did NOT choose to miss anything. Your statement implies that I intentionally left that out. I did NOT. Before hitting 'Send', I suggest you scrub your postings of all negative implications when they pertain to people other than you. -Mark
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
by the way, we observe the situation from far away, without good legal tools. abour Rossi's company, Defkalion and so on, the only reasonable possibility of scam, is that Defkalion is a fake company, partner of the scam, the secret client(s) too... does anybody have access to the legal registrar of company in greece, to see if Defkalion is real, if it already have a business. are there uncriticable report par third party of the physical/legal reality of various partners. for me the scam is only possible if we have a fake image of the reality form internet. on internet nobody knows if you are a dog. and maybe it is a network of dog that scam us. if not, there is something real to care about. no intermediate possible.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Mary wrote: »Krivit provides details of the deal Rossi refused from Celani» Like it is typical for Krivit, he did not provide any details but silly, arrogant and misinformed pseudopsychological speculations that are stated as facts. Krivit has already lost his scientific credibility and ability to objective journalism, I would say that it is wasting of time to refer him. —Jouni
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Assuming that's a correct quote by and from Celani, my reaction would be: Too late, Mr. Rossi? You mean you don't have any copper E-cats lying around Celani could test? No extra Ottoman modules? Of course he has them. Don't be silly. He is making more every day. He has said quite clearly, time after time, that he will do not more testing. He has also denounced Celani. He does not want Celani to know anything about the machine. I'm sure someone will explain it and make excuses for Rossi. It is not an excuse but Rossi himself has said exactly what he will and will not do, and why. It is quite clear. He will do no tests. He has no patent and he does not want the competition to believe his machine is real. As McKubre put it, he wants to keep the results ambiguous to avoid competition and the evil eye of the DoE. You may not agree with this strategy but please stop pretending you have never heard of it. Or that it makes no sense. Stop asking people to explain what is obvious and what we have already explained. Perhaps you do not believe this explanation, but it is still tiresome for you to demand we repeat it over and over again. You resemble a 3-year-old who wants to hear the same bedtime story night after night. Take it or leave it, that is the reason. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
I think it is wrong to ask Rossi for a test. If the test is successful he is the only one who wins and if it is not successful, he is the only one who loses. Because he will not reveal the catalyst, science has no advantage from it. Others do credible say they have good results without catalyst and these are more credible persons. This is the route for science. He does not want to do this, and this is his legit right. I have no problem with this. I have problems because this differs abstrusely from that what he promised some time ago. Kullander and Essen have said, their stipulation for a test is that they may publish the results. If not, they will not do a test. They want science results, not business results. Because Rossi does not want publication, this test in Uppsala will not be done this way as Rossi promised it in his forum one or two months ago. He announced a closed circuit massflow calorimetry test in an laboratorium in Upsalla in December this year in his forum. I was ready to believe him. It was apparently all a very unfair poker bluff. He ridiculizes anybody, who trusted his promises and who previously forwarded the good news in good believe. I am ashamed that I ever posted links to this into a serious physics newsgroup. I have learned. I will never again believe anything, if no diamond-clear and -hard facts are presented. Anybody who offers him to do a public test, is accused by him to steal his secret. This is a reason not to ask him anything anymore. He ridiculizes all his serious supporters, e.g. Essen and Kullander and Brian Josephson and Denis Bushnell. Best regards, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
I wrote: He has said quite clearly, time after time, that he will do not more testing. NO more testing. I seem to make that mistake both typing and with voice input. Scary. Rossi may be a master at indirection at McKubre says, but he could not make himself clearer about this issue. McKubre, I, and many others have offered him access to the best institutions in the world at no cost, including SRI, MIT and Georgia Tech. His response: ABSOLUTELY NOT, I WILL NOT TEST, NEVER, I REFUSE, NO WAY, GO AWAY He means that. His reasons are obvious. I understand his reasons. Mary Yugo has been told those reasons. If she does not believe them, fine, that is noted, we all now know Yugo and Krivit does not believe these reasons. Let us move on and stop repeating that. Also, just because I have explained these reasons that does not mean I agree with the business strategy or that I am making excuses. I understand the strategy but I have recommended other strategies to him. I will grant he is facing a tough situation. Yugo recommended to me that Rossi go to Richard Branson or someone like that. In other words, she suggests that Rossi should hand over everything he has to ruthless people who have more money than God, and who will instantly rob him blind and leave him with nothing -- because he has no patent. He should hope that these people will cease doing the kinds of things they have done all their lives, and which have brought them success and massive wealth. That is not a good business strategy. Rossi needs to keep people like Branson in the dark for as long as possible, until he can get a patent. Even I agree with him on that. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: Kullander and Essen have said, their stipulation for a test is that they may publish the results. If not, they will not do a test. That's good. I am glad they said that. It means he will cancel the test, but I agree with Heckert that a university should not do closed, secret tests. Anybody who offers him to do a public test, is accused by him to steal his secret. This is a reason not to ask him anything anymore. He ridiculizes all his serious supporters, e.g. Essen and Kullander and Brian Josephson and Denis Bushnell. [You mean he ridicules.] I do not think he is ridiculing these people. I think he is making use of them for his own purposes. He accepts their help. He accepts anyone's help. But he gives nothing in return. His goal is to succeed commercially. To make money, in other words. This is an honorable goal. He will only do things that contribute to this goal. Because he has no patent and he cannot easily get one, and because he trusts no one, he must use convoluted, unconventional methods. If he succeeds he will give humanity a greater gift than any inventor in history, so we will have nothing to complain about. If he fails, he will hurt himself more than anyone else. I think his secrets are bound to come out sooner or later. In the end, we will probably have this technology. I hope that Defkalion has it. This may hurt Rossi. I would hate to see him hurt, but if that is what it takes to bring this to fruition . . . Rossi deserves billions of dollars, if that is what he wants. Our economic system rewards the people who made Facebook with billions. Surely he deserves this too. Facebook is a minor incremental improvement to technology invented by Uncle Sam (the Internet). I wish there were some way to assure that he will get billions. The business strategies suggested by Mary Yugo and some others skeptics would only guarantee that he ends up penniless in the gutter, or -- like Tesla -- destitute and living in a hotel with a few crumbs tossed to him by the people who benefited from his discoveries. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, 2011-11-26 at 14:43 -0800, Mary Yugo wrote: I'm sure someone will explain it and make excuses for Rossi. If it's not a correct quote, I'd expect Celani to deny he wrote or said it and Rossi to correct it. What would be the advantage to Rossi if he provided a conclusive test? He's already sold 13 of these things and plans to deliver in them in 3 months. If he really has orders backed up for these, then he could probably make a couple hundred million dollars by the time people realize that his device works. At that point, isn't there a good chance that his progress may be significantly stifled if some nuclear regulatory agency shuts him down? Before they tested his device and concluded that it was safe enough to build, might this not be a couple of years? When the world realizes this thing is real, then there is going to be such a clamor for it that his intellectual property may seriously be threatened. There will be knock-offs from third world countries, and I'm not even sure that Europe and America would give him a patent. They are so desperate for a solution to their oil problems that they might just declare his work too valuable to patent. When Rossi was ready to sell his product, he needed some attention to attract customers. Now, he has those customers, and I think that conclusive proof that his device works, is the last thing he wants at this time. On another note: I went over to 116 S. River Rd, in Bedford, NH, yesterday. There is a small business park there with about 15 companies listed, but no Leonardo Corporation is in the directory, and it doesn't appear to be a place where any kind of construction could be taking place. So if the Leonardo Corporation is there, then they are using it only as a small private office. So I wonder where Rossi is building these 1 MW units? There was a company listed as 4D Technologies, and this struck me as something that I remember hearing somewhere. Has anyone else heard of this company? Craig Haynie
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Am 27.11.2011 00:35, schrieb Jed Rothwell: If he succeeds he will give humanity a greater gift than any inventor in history, so we will have nothing to complain about. He will give to humanity a large fangroup and legends that will grow over time If he fails, he will hurt himself more than anyone else. I think his secrets are bound to come out sooner or later. He will not fail. Remember Keely. He did it his life long and when others started to ignore him, he found a rich widow who supported him until his death. He made a lot of money and destroyed all demonstration models after his demonstrations. These few things that where found after his death had hidden pneumatic tubes inside. Still today Keely has a community of strong believers. Most people learn never. I have learned. If I support this I will be disappointed and violated at the end. No support for him anymore. If he wants proof he must do it himself, this must be easy if his claims are true. Best regards, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.comwrote: What would be the advantage to Rossi if he provided a conclusive test? The advantage would be that people would believe him. If he did not want to be believed, why has he gone through all the demonstrations he has done thus far with invited guests including press and scientists? Jed thinks big corporations or Richard Branson types would rip off Rossi. I doubt it. First, they would not have to in order to make a fortune. Second, if Rossi is such a genius, they would need his cooperation. They would also need him not to go to potential competitors. And Rossi could begin with a big law firm and a contingency contract to protect his interest. If I were him, I wouldn't hide anything. I'd make a complete and proper patent application, first get a huge law firm to help me and second enlist a huge patron to fund giant expansion. I'd end up bigger than GM and GE. This isn't the Dark Ages any more. Industrialists cooperate with inventors when it's to their benefit. Ripoffs are far from inevitable and in fact rarely happen from big companies when dealing with established inventions and inventors. And when it does happen, the companies often end up losing in court-- losing big. See for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns Jed says in essence that Rossi is shy and afraid to be known because if he's known he'll be ripped off. If so, why has he granted interview after interview and why did he invite the AP. That is not consistent with keeping a low profile -- not one bit. He's already sold 13 of these things and plans to deliver in them in 3 months. So he says. Unfortunately, he provides not the slightest evidence that he in fact has done so. You have to believe him entirely on faith. And well... some of you may also believe he's a convicted felon. Twice or was was it three times? On another note: I went over to 116 S. River Rd, in Bedford, NH, yesterday. There is a small business park there with about 15 companies listed, but no Leonardo Corporation is in the directory, and it doesn't appear to be a place where any kind of construction could be taking place. So if the Leonardo Corporation is there, then they are using it only as a small private office. So I wonder where Rossi is building these 1 MW units? Thanks for doing that. Doesn't NOT finding any trace of any large office belonging to the Leonardo corporation there shake your faith at least one little bit? In fact, nobody has ever seen Rossi's factory-- it would take a bit of a facility to make 12 plants containing (12 * 3 * 50) = 1800 core modules! That's a lot of work. And of course, nobody has seen a hair of any part of the Defkalion plant. Maybe that will change in two days. Maybe not. I predict they will not show anything definitive and completely credible at all.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, 2011-11-26 at 15:55 -0800, Mary Yugo wrote: On another note: I went over to 116 S. River Rd, in Bedford, NH, yesterday. There is a small business park there with about 15 companies listed, but no Leonardo Corporation is in the directory, and it doesn't appear to be a place where any kind of construction could be taking place. So if the Leonardo Corporation is there, then they are using it only as a small private office. So I wonder where Rossi is building these 1 MW units? Thanks for doing that. Doesn't NOT finding any trace of any large office belonging to the Leonardo corporation there shake your faith at least one little bit? Sure -- but I don't care. I am not trying to solve the mystery behind the Rossi' e-cat. :) There's not going to be any conclusive proof from Rossi. If he doesn't have a working model, then there won't be any proof, and if he does have a working model, then there won't be any proof until someone reverse engineers it, which could take a couple of years. So it's pointless to look for proof. If, however, he is selling e-cats to customers, then someone will reverse engineer it, but that will take time, and in the meantime, Rossi will make lots of money. Also note that if Rossi does have working e-cats, then he will do more demonstrations from time to time just to keep people interested in buying them -- but these will not be tests. Craig
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
What Mary is describing is the only rational course of action. What Rossi is doing is what a scam artist would do. Giovanni On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.comwrote: What would be the advantage to Rossi if he provided a conclusive test? The advantage would be that people would believe him. If he did not want to be believed, why has he gone through all the demonstrations he has done thus far with invited guests including press and scientists? Jed thinks big corporations or Richard Branson types would rip off Rossi. I doubt it. First, they would not have to in order to make a fortune. Second, if Rossi is such a genius, they would need his cooperation. They would also need him not to go to potential competitors. And Rossi could begin with a big law firm and a contingency contract to protect his interest. If I were him, I wouldn't hide anything. I'd make a complete and proper patent application, first get a huge law firm to help me and second enlist a huge patron to fund giant expansion. I'd end up bigger than GM and GE. This isn't the Dark Ages any more. Industrialists cooperate with inventors when it's to their benefit. Ripoffs are far from inevitable and in fact rarely happen from big companies when dealing with established inventions and inventors. And when it does happen, the companies often end up losing in court-- losing big. See for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns Jed says in essence that Rossi is shy and afraid to be known because if he's known he'll be ripped off. If so, why has he granted interview after interview and why did he invite the AP. That is not consistent with keeping a low profile -- not one bit. He's already sold 13 of these things and plans to deliver in them in 3 months. So he says. Unfortunately, he provides not the slightest evidence that he in fact has done so. You have to believe him entirely on faith. And well... some of you may also believe he's a convicted felon. Twice or was was it three times? On another note: I went over to 116 S. River Rd, in Bedford, NH, yesterday. There is a small business park there with about 15 companies listed, but no Leonardo Corporation is in the directory, and it doesn't appear to be a place where any kind of construction could be taking place. So if the Leonardo Corporation is there, then they are using it only as a small private office. So I wonder where Rossi is building these 1 MW units? Thanks for doing that. Doesn't NOT finding any trace of any large office belonging to the Leonardo corporation there shake your faith at least one little bit? In fact, nobody has ever seen Rossi's factory-- it would take a bit of a facility to make 12 plants containing (12 * 3 * 50) = 1800 core modules! That's a lot of work. And of course, nobody has seen a hair of any part of the Defkalion plant. Maybe that will change in two days. Maybe not. I predict they will not show anything definitive and completely credible at all.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: What Mary is describing is the only rational course of action. What Rossi is doing is what a scam artist would do And, in your opinion, how does this scam artist profit from the alleged scam? T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
I didn't say he necessarily is a good scam artist... ; ) he has tried and failed before... G On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: What Mary is describing is the only rational course of action. What Rossi is doing is what a scam artist would do And, in your opinion, how does this scam artist profit from the alleged scam? T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: What Mary is describing is the only rational course of action. What Rossi is doing is what a scam artist would do And, in your opinion, how does this scam artist profit from the alleged scam? Terry, I'm shocked. You're making me repeat it *again*. For what? The fifth time? OK. Nobody else read this but Terry. I apologize in advance to everyone else. Here goes again -- maybe I should put it in a web site and just link it each time someone asks: If it's a scam, it's an INVESTOR scam, like Steorn, in which the investors pay up front and along the way millions and millions of dollars to the scammer to share in the profits of the invention. They often do so without proper vetting and testing (just as they did with Steorn). The scammer protects himself with non-disclosure agreements and with strong disclaimers saying the work being paid for is best effort only and every investment including this one has significant risk including losing all your money. You see that all the time in penny stock scams that net big bucks from gullible people. Investors are unable to sue due to disclaimers and NDA's they signed or they are too embarrassed to be seen as the dupes they were. And they get a tax writeoff. Also Rossi *already* got money described as a significant part of the equation from Ampenergo. The link (again at least the fifth time) is here: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3179019.ece Nobody knows who else gave him money -- people offer it to him all the time various places on the internet including his blog. One can make plenty of money with a scam without selling a thing. If you can demonstrate by any means other than quoting him that Rossi ever sold anything, please feel free to do so.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:39 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: I didn't say he necessarily is a good scam artist... ; ) he has tried and failed before... For all you naive people out there, you don't walk away with €2,000,000 of someone's money and remain a public entity . . . for long. I have a relationship with detectives of a very large police department and once asked the value of a human life. He said that he was aware of situations where someone died of lead poisoning for $500 cash and knew the group who did it. They left the weapon at the scene. No prints. Detective X also said, that if you want the evidence gone, ie not body found, it would cost ten times as much. I was curious how the evidence was made gone, and he said that Dempsey Dumpsters laid to rest more people than any funeral home he knew. That was enough and I asked no more questions. You don't steal $2,800,000 from people that have $2.8M unless that is all they have. Unless you immediately disappear. I recommend Costa Rica. If you believe AR is scamming this amount of money, you are unaware of reality. Now, I have an alternative idea, the only one that I can imagine. AR just wants to see his name on the net. Kewl. He spends hundreds of thousands of dollars, hires actors, fakes a demonstration of a 1 MW reactor and gets 5,000,000 hits on the internet. After self gratification, what does he have left? Well, I have seen piccys of his wife and he is not seeking self gratification. It is short lived. There is something happening here. What it is isn't exactly clear. But your mind should be. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5M_Ttstbgs T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Am 27.11.2011 01:39, schrieb Giovanni Santostasi: I didn't say he necessarily is a good scam artist... ; ) he has tried and failed before... G On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com mailto:gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: What Mary is describing is the only rational course of action. What Rossi is doing is what a scam artist would do And, in your opinion, how does this scam artist profit from the alleged scam He sells. Mike Brady did never make a documented successful demonstration. He announced multiple demonstrations in prominent places, but never did them. Shortly before the final date he disannounced them. He said, he could not do them for security reasons because his life was in danger and he wants to protect his customers. Rossi uses the same advertising agents and distribution channels: Sterling Allan (PESWiki) and Adolf Schneider (TransAltec AG) in Switzerland. Mike Brady had in his contractual stipulation explicitely written that a customer has no right to see a working machine before paying. Also the customer had to pay before delivery. No escrow. This where his conditions and he got customers. He sold, but there are at least 40 documented cases where he did not deliver and these customers went to court in germany, I have read details about this case. Probably he found many more anonymous customers more who ordered and payed. It is interesting. It was easy to convict him because he did not deliver and because he could not show a stock or factory and he could not show, that he ever intended to deliver. I believe, Rossi will not do this fundamental management error, he will deliver. If a customer makes trouble, he can stop to deliver the catalyst. It is then impossible for the customer to proof if the machine worked or not. So, if he sells, he will be in a much stronger position than Brady. So, how does he profit? Very simple - he sells. best regards, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: The scammer protects himself with non-disclosure agreements and with strong disclaimers saying the work being paid for is best effort only and every investment including this one has significant risk including losing all your money. LOL! You do not understand the power of money vs the value of human life. Your response is so very naive. T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, I'm shocked. Yes, the f-word offends me, too. I was only trying to protect your virtue. ;-) T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: He sells. Mike Brady did never make a documented successful demonstration. So, Peter, my dear yo-yo friend, can you document how many Perendev motors that Brady actually sold? T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Am 27.11.2011 02:15, schrieb Terry Blanton: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: He sells. Mike Brady did never make a documented successful demonstration. So, Peter, my dear yo-yo friend, can you document how many Perendev motors that Brady actually sold? I am not everybodys dear friend. No, I cannot. There where 40 cases documented by court. I recommend to do own recherche if you are interested, but the documents are in german. Nevertheless they should be accessable by qualified attorneys and court journalists. Best regards, Peter T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Terry, If being killed at a cost of 500 dollars would enough to stop a scam artist or a criminal of any type we would not have many around... G On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:23 PM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.dewrote: Am 27.11.2011 02:15, schrieb Terry Blanton: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de** wrote: He sells. Mike Brady did never make a documented successful demonstration. So, Peter, my dear yo-yo friend, can you document how many Perendev motors that Brady actually sold? I am not everybodys dear friend. No, I cannot. There where 40 cases documented by court. I recommend to do own recherche if you are interested, but the documents are in german. Nevertheless they should be accessable by qualified attorneys and court journalists. Best regards, Peter T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I am not everybodys dear friend. Well, consider me a dear friend unless something changes. Why not be patient and see what actually happens. Are you new to all this CF stuff? I am not and I have been yo-yo-ed more than you or any of the listers I have seen here in the past 10 months. Standby and keep an open mind . . . but not so open that your brain falls out! :-) (How does Rich Murray put it . . . oh, yeah) within mutual service, T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, If being killed at a cost of 500 dollars would enough to stop a scam artist or a criminal of any type we would not have many around... Agreed. I did not specifically speak of scammers. I spoke only of an experienced detective's knowledge of the value of human life. Scammers who steal from widows of orphans might get one for free. :-) T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
widows *or* orphans Sorry, first day with the new fingers. The Yakuza can be generous and know many microsurgerns! T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Am 27.11.2011 02:28, schrieb Giovanni Santostasi: Terry, If being killed at a cost of 500 dollars would enough to stop a scam artist or a criminal of any type we would not have many around... Those people who buy, are not those who kill. There are easier ways for such criminals to get money than to buy wonder machines. Pure criminals dont buy this. In the case of Brady it was reported, that he treatened and blackmailed customers via phone calls. You must see, only naive believers buy this and some hoped Brady will soon solve the technical problems that he pretended to have or they will get their money back. It is also possible some buy to steal the secret and these are easy to blackmail and to handle, because these dont want to see their case examined by police and court.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.dewrote: Am 27.11.2011 02:28, schrieb Giovanni Santostasi: Terry, If being killed at a cost of 500 dollars would enough to stop a scam artist or a criminal of any type we would not have many around... Those people who buy, are not those who kill. Indeed not! They are the employers, silly! T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Terry, take a moment and google and review the cases of: Bedini Dennis Lee Sniffex (and it's $100 million lethal successors such as the ADE651, GT200, H3 Tec, HEDD1, AL-6D) Perendev Mylow Jeff Otto Carl Tilley Aviso Any scam of the day at peswiki.com (Sterling cycles them through more than once a week) and don't forget a detailed study of Steorn Any HHO scam, one of which recently killed three participants in a Los Angeles suburb and blew up a building And there are many, many others I could look up but it probably wouldn't sway you one bit. All of the above are scams, scammers, and con men. Most are investor scams rather than product scams. A few have been caught. Some are convicted felons, like Rossi. Most don't get caught-- at least not for a while and not for every scam. Some scams are unusually deadly -- for example explosive detector scams which killed a dozen people on camera in Thailand and possibly hundreds or thousands of anonymous people in Iraq and wasted about a hundred million dollars in US aid to Iraq. Do you live in a world of blissful innocence in which everyone is honest and you can believe what they say simply because they say it?
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
new fingers? G On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:37 PM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.dewrote: Am 27.11.2011 02:28, schrieb Giovanni Santostasi: Terry, If being killed at a cost of 500 dollars would enough to stop a scam artist or a criminal of any type we would not have many around... Those people who buy, are not those who kill. There are easier ways for such criminals to get money than to buy wonder machines. Pure criminals dont buy this. In the case of Brady it was reported, that he treatened and blackmailed customers via phone calls. You must see, only naive believers buy this and some hoped Brady will soon solve the technical problems that he pretended to have or they will get their money back. It is also possible some buy to steal the secret and these are easy to blackmail and to handle, because these dont want to see their case examined by police and court.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Am 27.11.2011 02:38, schrieb Terry Blanton: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de mailto:peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: Am 27.11.2011 02:28, schrieb Giovanni Santostasi: Terry, If being killed at a cost of 500 dollars would enough to stop a scam artist or a criminal of any type we would not have many around... Those people who buy, are not those who kill. Indeed not! They are the employers, silly! Is it not silly to think, you can buy a machine that contains a multi billion dollar secret for 2 millions and still live in peace and happiness? People who do this, are easy to handle.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Rossi is a businessman who wants to make money. Solid testing would be awesome marketing but he doesn't want to attract attention, yet he invites AP reporters to observe tests. He doesn't need black box tests because he already has customers, and though a satisfied customer is the best marketing available, his customers are all sworn to secrecy? He is fine with shoddy demoes because he's from the Old School. He just wants to sell devices, but not too many, and yet every device sold could be torn apart and duplicated. He doesn't have a patent because the one he filed was intentionally absurd. The rationalization required to describe a self consistent narrative out of these random, contradictory facts is mind boggling. On Nov 26, 2011, at 20:45, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, take a moment and google and review the cases of: Bedini Dennis Lee Sniffex (and it's $100 million lethal successors such as the ADE651, GT200, H3 Tec, HEDD1, AL-6D) Perendev Mylow Jeff Otto Carl Tilley Aviso Any scam of the day at peswiki.com (Sterling cycles them through more than once a week) and don't forget a detailed study of Steorn Any HHO scam, one of which recently killed three participants in a Los Angeles suburb and blew up a building And there are many, many others I could look up but it probably wouldn't sway you one bit. All of the above are scams, scammers, and con men. Most are investor scams rather than product scams. A few have been caught. Some are convicted felons, like Rossi. Most don't get caught-- at least not for a while and not for every scam. Some scams are unusually deadly -- for example explosive detector scams which killed a dozen people on camera in Thailand and possibly hundreds or thousands of anonymous people in Iraq and wasted about a hundred million dollars in US aid to Iraq. Do you live in a world of blissful innocence in which everyone is honest and you can believe what they say simply because they say it?
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, take a moment and google and review the cases of: snip Do you live in a world of blissful innocence in which everyone is honest and you can believe what they say simply because they say it? Dearest Mary, I have followed all these and others long before you were even aware of their existence. And I do not believe a word of Rossi simply because he says so. However, I have followed this LENR stuff since 1989. (Were you even born then?) I once discounted it like everyone else, then a kind old gentleman by the name of Chris Tinsley come on my CompuServe web forum and simply asked me if I was sure that cold fusion was dead. He suggested that I join a forum called Vortex-l and follow the discussions. So, I did. I wish to thank Jed Rothwell who asked for help building the LENR-CANR.org web site. He needed help with getting the documents in a format that could be posted on his site. I and my secretary had some time available and we worked on some of the documents helping reformat them. But, in the meantime, I had to read and understand what they were saying. Now, I was already convinced by the exchanges on Vortex that I was wrong about cold fusion; but, working on these documents secured me in my convictions. Jed has proceeded on his own since then; but, I have continued to read many of not most of the papers posted on the LENR-CANR.org web site. Indeed, today, I was looking for a particular paper and could not access the site and found it was down. I told Jed and he let me know that there was a problem. These documents are a great treasure trove. I think anyone with a sound mind and some knowledge of science could read the bulk of these papers and find them convincing of the truth of low energy nuclear reactions. I read them hoping to find a secret that is embedded in the combination of all the knowledge. Frankly, I think I have stumbled on a few and I mention them sometimes on this forum. But, lately, to quote Dave in his consolation of HAL something wonderful is happening. And if you are afraid, Don't be. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VScblwhj9lU Forget Rossi and look at the big picture. If you see what I do, you will be elated! T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: What would be the advantage to Rossi if he provided a conclusive test? The advantage would be that people would believe him. If he did not want to be believed, why has he gone through all the demonstrations he has done thus far with invited guests including press and scientists? Look, this really is not complicated. He wants to be believed a little, by some groups of people, so that he can sell them reactors. He does not want to be believed by everyone at this time. Many other inventors such as Edison and Patterson did the same thing for the same reasons. If I were him, I wouldn't hide anything. I'd make a complete and proper patent application, first get a huge law firm to help me and second enlist a huge patron to fund giant expansion. . . . You would probably end up with nothing. In any case, Rossi thinks this method would fail, and he is the only one who gets to decide. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote: Mary wrote: »Krivit provides details of the deal Rossi refused from Celani» Like it is typical for Krivit, he did not provide any details but silly, arrogant and misinformed pseudopsychological speculations that are stated as facts. Krivit has already lost his scientific credibility and ability to objective journalism, I would say that it is wasting of time to refer him. Looks to me as if you did not bother to read the original item. In it is a link to Celani's email. That looks pretty factual and detailed to me and not silly, arrogant or misinformed. After all, Celani wrote it! Here is an image of the email, read it for yourself: http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/img/2022CelaniRossiDecline.jpg
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Also Rossi *already* got money described as a significant part of the equation from Ampenergo. The link (again at least the fifth time) is here: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3179019.ece As McKubre noted in his lecture, Ampenergo performed their own tests, with their own equipment and several independent experts. He quoted the results: AmpEnerco Run II Sept. 25, 2009 New Hampshire 64 L H2O [coolant, I think] T-in 23°C, T-out 46°C Duration 4 hours Average P-in 40 W, P-out ~400 W There were several other tests. Also, Ampenergo definitely does know the name of the customer. I assume if there are other investors, they do too. So a scam to rip off investors is ruled out. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Seems I have both you and Jed to talk for creating the www.lenr-canr.org web site. Yes it is a treasure trove of information and yes it did help to convince me and several others that Ni-H LENR reaction are real. Well done guys. I'm sure many other do appreciate the effort and the results. AG On 11/27/2011 12:44 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: I wish to thank Jed Rothwell who asked for help building the LENR-CANR.org web site. He needed help with getting the documents in a format that could be posted on his site. I and my secretary had some time available and we worked on some of the documents helping reformat them. But, in the meantime, I had to read and understand what they were saying... ..These documents are a great treasure trove. I think anyone with a sound mind and some knowledge of science could read the bulk of these papers and find them convincing of the truth of low energy nuclear reactions...
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Seems I have both you and Jed to talk for creating the www.lenr-canr.org web site. No no no. Jed created the web site and pays the bills. This is Jed's web site! He called for assistance on the initial documents and I, among many others, helped him with the formatting. I was lucky to even be allowed to have a part in the process. Jed Rothwell IS lenr-canr.org. It contains his life blood. He is one of the Three Musketeers: Eugene Mallove, Chris Tinsley and Jed Rothwell. I have seen people call Jed all sorts of names; but, history will show him as THE advocate of cold fusion. Martin Fleishmann and Stanley Pons deserve a Nobel Prize for their work. But they should pay Jed for his expenses on LENR-CANR.org as remuneration from the proceeds. Just my opinion. Hey, on that note, I was trying to find Stanley Pons on the web to find out what he is doing. Does anyone know? T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: So a scam to rip off investors is ruled out. How do we know Ampenergo knows things? How did we rule out that Ampenergo is in on a scam? Ampenergo (vile name by the way -- reminds me of Ampere No go) promised they'd start selling a megawatt plant in fourth quarter of 2011 or early 2012. The only evidence of them I know of that they still exist is a very lame and extremely short web page or two with the newest news release dating from last June! They'd better start moving soon. They have not been heard from that I know since and they have never shown anything of any significance anywhere. When would the first products reach the American market? Cassarino: We’re hoping to get something here hopefully by late fall or beginning of next year (2012) as our first product to demonstrate. We’re not going down the same path as the Greeks (Defkalion Green Technologies) to develop home heating; we’re not really looking at that as a low hanging fruit. What would be your first kind of product? Cassarino: I think this one megawatt (like the one planned in Greece – editor’s note) for heating and for power generation is probably the first, whether it’s off grid or mobile. Uhhun. Sure. From: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3179019.ece (same place where they say they paid Rossi and it's an important piece of the equation.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Jed has rendered excellent volunteer service to our world with his detailed, mildly biased, comprehensive archive of published scientific studies and workshop proceedings. within mutual service, Rich Murray On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Seems I have both you and Jed to talk for creating the www.lenr-canr.org web site. No no no. Jed created the web site and pays the bills. This is Jed's web site! He called for assistance on the initial documents and I, among many others, helped him with the formatting. I was lucky to even be allowed to have a part in the process. Jed Rothwell IS lenr-canr.org. It contains his life blood. He is one of the Three Musketeers: Eugene Mallove, Chris Tinsley and Jed Rothwell. I have seen people call Jed all sorts of names; but, history will show him as THE advocate of cold fusion. Martin Fleishmann and Stanley Pons deserve a Nobel Prize for their work. But they should pay Jed for his expenses on LENR-CANR.org as remuneration from the proceeds. Just my opinion. Hey, on that note, I was trying to find Stanley Pons on the web to find out what he is doing. Does anyone know? T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: What would be the advantage to Rossi if he provided a conclusive test? He's already sold 13 of these things and plans to deliver in them in 3 months. If he really has orders backed up for these, then he could probably make a couple hundred million dollars by the time people realize that his device works. At that point, isn't there a good chance that his progress may be significantly stifled if some nuclear regulatory agency shuts him down? Before they tested his device and concluded that it was safe enough to build, might this not be a couple of years? I believe that is what he is thinking. He has not described his strategy quite this clearly, but he did say most of this. McKubre, I, and many others feel this is what he thinks. I have to grant, the plan seems to be working. 13 orders for $2 million each is a lot of money. He gets that for 0% of the company. No interference from venture capitalists. There is much to be said for a self-financing operation. If he gets enough cash he will have enough to write a good patent and fight for it in court. I have heard the best patent you can write is worthless unless you have millions of dollars to fight big corporations and others who will try to rip it off. A patent is a license to sue. A large war chest of tens of millions might also let him buy enough influence on Capital Hill to overrule the U.S.P.O. The only way you can influence Uncle Sam is with cold hard cash. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Appreciate the history lesson. Good stuff. I do agree with you that F P deserve a Noble for their work. Then they can fund Jed's work with a small part of the prize money. AG On 11/27/2011 1:16 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Seems I have both you and Jed to talk for creating the www.lenr-canr.org web site. No no no. Jed created the web site and pays the bills. This is Jed's web site! He called for assistance on the initial documents and I, among many others, helped him with the formatting. I was lucky to even be allowed to have a part in the process. Jed Rothwell IS lenr-canr.org. It contains his life blood. He is one of the Three Musketeers: Eugene Mallove, Chris Tinsley and Jed Rothwell. I have seen people call Jed all sorts of names; but, history will show him as THE advocate of cold fusion. Martin Fleishmann and Stanley Pons deserve a Nobel Prize for their work. But they should pay Jed for his expenses on LENR-CANR.org as remuneration from the proceeds. Just my opinion. Hey, on that note, I was trying to find Stanley Pons on the web to find out what he is doing. Does anyone know? T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: He's already sold 13 of these things and plans to deliver in them in 3 months. If I said he was a scammer and will be arrested, you'd correct me to be sure I said it was my opinion and in any case far from proven or certain. Yet you state, and seem comfortable is saying as if it were fact, that Rossi has sold 13 megawatt plants and all you are going by is his say so and the lame show he put on October 28. Maybe you should qualify that each time as according to Rossi or Rossi says to keep to the same sort of standard you demand of skeptical remarks. Unless you know a whole lot I don't and then I wish you were at liberty to say what the heck it is.
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: How do we know Ampenergo knows things? I know things because people tell me. You appear to know things because you have ESP. How did we rule out that Ampenergo is in on a scam? If they are, they are very good at scamming world-class experts well known to McKubre and others. I suppose they must be the mythical stage magicians who can fool people who look inside the machines. As I said, you cannot rule out that which cannot be falsified, but you can't rule it in, up or down either. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
I don't know about you, but I come here for the naked protons. Harry On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:12 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, I'm shocked. Yes, the f-word offends me, too. I was only trying to protect your virtue. ;-) T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: He's already sold 13 of these things and plans to deliver in them in 3 months. If I said he was a scammer and will be arrested, you'd correct me to be sure I said it was my opinion and in any case far from proven or certain. I would never say that! You have that wrong. It is not far from proven. On the contrary, there is not one tiny bit of evidence for this. It is * entirely* your opinion. If there were any evidence at all, such a police report, or a complaint, or even a rumor that someone has invested other than Ampenergo, or that someone has been ripped off, I am sure you would provide details. Yet you state, and seem comfortable is saying as if it were fact, that Rossi has sold 13 megawatt plants and all you are going by is his say so and the lame show he put on October 28. All readers here know that this is Rossi's say so, and there is no other evidence. You need not repeat that. Also, this is not Craig Haynie's opinion and he did not say it is a fact. Maybe you should qualify that each time as according to Rossi or Rossi says . . . Why? Everyone know that. You should say X or Y is merely my opinion or this is only my intuitive gut feeling when you say something totally unsupported by any fact. That is the proper form a debate. Haynie is not Rossi so he does not need to qualify Rossi's assertions. Everyone can form an opinion of Rossi's credibility. He is famous; Haynie and you are not, so you two (and I course) are obligated to identify own own opinions. You seem to have some difficulty differentiating between your own intuitive gut feelings, possibly true facts, and hard facts. Ask yourself if there is any objective evidence for the claim. Any at all. If there is not, it is the former, and you should say so. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
Entanglement of naked protons may be more interesting. AG On 11/27/2011 1:44 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: I don't know about you, but I come here for the naked protons. Harry On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:12 PM, Terry Blantonhohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Mary Yugomaryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, I'm shocked. Yes, the f-word offends me, too. I was only trying to protect your virtue. ;-) T
Re: [Vo]:Krivit provides details of deal Celani offered Rossi and Rossi's rejection of it
While humor can be in a spirit of mutual good will and commendable friendly playfulness, adding to social bonding in a discussion, long established traditions of courtesy suggest avoiding sexual innuendos, since many participants are female people who live with plenty of often unconscious distracting, disparaging flack from male people... we all benefit by choosing to persistently abandon any such disfunctional historical baggage. On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Entanglement of naked protons may be more interesting. AG On 11/27/2011 1:44 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: I don't know about you, but I come here for the naked protons. Harry On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 8:12 PM, Terry Blantonhohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Mary Yugomaryyu...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, I'm shocked. Yes, the f-word offends me, too. I was only trying to protect your virtue. ;-) T
