Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Erik Moeller]

2016-03-02 23:22 GMT-08:00 Erik Moeller :
> Jimmy made a couple of suggestions earlier [1], including to publish
> all presentations given to the Board and to have a trusted community
> observer.

"Nearly all", to paraphrase accurately, and on re-reading the email
I'm not sure I understand the "observer" idea ("a program of invited
board observers from people who are well known and well trusted by the
community"). Personally, I do find it intriguing but I'm not sure it
would add much value transparency-wise, unless these observers play
some kind of role in the discussion of what gets published, i.e. they
effectively act as advocates for transparency.

> When it comes to presentations, the manual primarily refers to
> exceptions such as Legal presentations and documents "intended for
> presentation".

That should read: "intended for publication".

Erik (and now I'm really over my quota)

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:51 AM, Jane Darnell  wrote:

> I just thought Mr. Kolbe's mother didn't hug him enough as a baby.
>
>
I did not bring this up in response to any one particular person, thread,
or individual post.
​The issues are much broader and run far deeper, namely, the acceptability
of actively or passive-aggressively seeking to hurt others in the guise of
all of our shared concerns..

-- 
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Erik Moeller]

2016-03-02 22:56 GMT-08:00 Chris Sherlock :

> Let’s have the Board meetings be recorded. If they cannot be recorded,
> then I’d like the WMF to improve their meeting minutes.

Jimmy made a couple of suggestions earlier [1], including to publish
all presentations given to the Board and to have a trusted community
observer.

To discuss which practices to adopt, it's worth first looking at the
existing Board manual, which is a remarkably detailed document that
goes into many of these issues including the exact process for minutes
publication, what types of information is captured in minutes, and so
on. [2]

When it comes to presentations, the manual primarily refers to
exceptions such as Legal presentations and documents "intended for
presentation".

I would recommend clarifying the standards under which such decisions
are made, perhaps in the manual itself, and indeed publishing
presentations going forward. For instance, I think one can make
reasonable arguments either way when it comes to revenue related
presentations, but there should be a general approach.

Personally I would recommend transparency for those, as well, with
confidential business income and similar data being omitted if
necessary. "Competitive analysis" and the like is generally not the
kind of thing that WMF is good at doing secretly, and indeed many of
its risk analyses have been made public. Certainly all strategy
presentations should be public.

As for minutes, again, it seems to me a matter of first clarifying,
possibly in the Board manual, what level of detail is appropriate. It
seems to me that the Board is adhering to a relatively risk-averse,
conservative approach right now, whereas WMF staff (which make many
risky and potentially sensitive decisions on a day-to-day basis)
capture significantly more individual-level detail in quarterly review
minutes without apparent ill effect. I understand the concern about
"speaking freely", but I personally think this is overstated in many
cases.

The Board, being a governance body, _will_ often talk about sensitive
issues that cannot be captured in detail, such as personnel,
management and legal matters. But that doesn't mean it cannot adhere
to a greater level of detail in capturing strategy conversations, for
example.

Erik

[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082719.html
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_Handbook

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Richard Ames]

Seems a good guide:

https://www.governanceinstitute.com.au/media/428696/gov-inst_bestpracticeminutes_2014.pdf

R/R

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Chris Sherlock]

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 5:31 PM, Pine W  wrote:
> 
> Circling back to a subject that I've mentioned before, I favor having
> meetings of the WMF Board be open and recorded by default, with limited
> exceptions for discussions of legally privileged information and other
> subjects for which there is a strong reason that deliberations should
> remain private. Note that "wiki-political sensitivity" is not one of those
> reasons.
> 
> I hope that recent events illustrate that it may be better to be
> transparent from the beginning than try to suppress information that
> eventually leaks out or emerges after a lengthy series of questions.
> 
> The WMF Board minutes tend to be brief, and the Board's deliberations are
> rarely public. This is disappointing for an organization in the open source
> movement. WMF should be an exemplar of transparent and open governance.
> 
> To illustrate the kind of detail that can be omitted from Board minutes and
> the temptation to omit information for questionable reasons, I suggest this
> clip from the British satire "Yes, Minister", in which two civil servants
> discuss the Prime Minister's wish to suppress the publication of a chapter
> of a book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNKjShmHw7s
> 
> I hope that, as the WMF Board moves forward, it transforms into a model of
> transparency and openness; less "Yes, Minister" and paralysis and
> resistance to the community, and more transparency and vigor in public
> service. Having WMF Board meetings be open and recorded by default would be
> a wonderful step in aligning the Board with the value of transparency.
> 
> Pine

I cannot be more supportive of this proposal.

Let’s have the Board meetings be recorded. If they cannot be recorded, then I’d 
like the WMF to improve their meeting minutes. 

I was thinking that minutes need to be recorded by an appointed scribe. It 
should show what time the meeting started, and what time it officially 
finished. I’d like to see times when issues were discussed, and a scribe could 
do this quite effectively. It would also show us if something was discussed 
that *wasn’t* noted in the minutes. 

I would also like Board members to document actions they have taken on behalf 
of the WMF outside of meetings. Besides being a statutory requirement, it’s a 
good idea and helps with transparency. 

Of course, the best solution would be Pine’s proposal of recording meetings and 
releasing these to the general public. 

Chris


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Peter Southwood]

But is it avoidable?
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Andreas Kolbe
Sent: Thursday, 03 March 2016 2:37 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

Asaf,

I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said that 
cast aspersions on Susanna's character.

Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under the 
authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along with 
other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker at 
Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia 
Armenia.[1][2]

I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.

Andreas

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in 
> Armenia since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants officer.
> During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian, 
> building community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their 
> best work, and building partnerships with cultural institutions as 
> well as government in her country.  I have had the pleasure of 
> visiting Armenia last year and seeing up close one of Susanna's 
> impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as well as attending and 
> speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national
> archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.
>
> Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's 
> commitment to movement values, *despite* working in a country 
> struggling with corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and 
> relatively weak democratic discipline.  Indeed, I have personally 
> witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts at co-optation of Wikimedia Armenia's 
> work.
>
> I encourage Andreas to retract his accusations ("clearly" etc.).
> Expressing a concern that there *might* be government interference was 
> perhaps legitimate, but proceeding to besmirch Susanna and her work 
> without evidence is unacceptable.
>
>Asaf
>
> [1] let us remember countries in the west struggle with tremendous 
> corruption too, albeit manifested more financially than ideologically.
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Cristian Consonni 
>  >
> wrote:
>
> > 2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> > > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard 
> > > of
> her.
> > > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> > enthusiasm
> > > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics 
> > > that
> > have
> > > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly 
> > > part
> of
> > a
> > > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > 2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> > > Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  
> > > Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought 
> > > these rather extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before 
> > > Susanna had even
> > had
> > > a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > 2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan :
> > > Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level 
> > > government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What 
> > > I'm asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition 
> > > that
> because
> > > she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in 
> > > Wikipedia
> > that
> > > Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
> >
> > Andreas,
> >
> > You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely 
> > unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not 
> > knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
> >
> > The only person that thinks that  "she [Susanna] is clearly part of 
> > a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
> >
> > As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of 
> > logic and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan 
> > said you have no evidence to support anything of what you have said 
> > besides the fact that Susanna is Armenian.
> >
> > The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in 
> > the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be 
> > volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of 
> > the Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a 
> > grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small, 
> > flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through 
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Jane Darnell]

I just thought Mr. Kolbe's mother didn't hug him enough as a baby.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 5:33 AM, Sam Klein  wrote:

> +1
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 11:11 PM, Anna Stillwell 
> wrote:
>
> > I agree to do so. I'll help you constructively remind.
> > Thank you.
> > /a
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Keegan Peterzell 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock <
> > chris.sherloc...@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
> > > > events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
> > > >
> > > > Just a thought.
> > > >
> > >
> > > ​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the
> > issues
> > > at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in
> > events
> > > and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.
> > >
> > > Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about
> the
> > > issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is
> a
> > > very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see
> this,
> > > as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
> > > every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two
> > other
> > > toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.
> > >
> > > 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
> > > 1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/
> > >
> > > --
> > > ~Keegan
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
> > >
> > > This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email
> > address
> > > is in a personal capacity.
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Anna Stillwell
> > Major Gifts Officer
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > 415.806.1536
> > *www.wikimediafoundation.org *
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > 
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein  @metasj  w:user:sj  +1 617 529 4266
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Affiliate-selected Board seats-candidates

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
I so agree. It would be good when the notion of civility that has been
championed is taken to Meta as well.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 3 March 2016 at 07:22, Anders Wennersten 
wrote:

> There are now, five days before deadline, 7 candidates and all new names.
> Last time two years ago there were only two candidates before the very last
> days before deadline and both being existing Board members.
>
> It is very good to see so many competent candidates and representing a
> wider set of background then has have been seen before.
>
> But we should respect the election process and keep questions and
> discussions on the candidates meta  pages.
>
> I find it inappropriate to discuss any  of them separately on this list.
>
> Anders
>
>
>
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

[Pine W]

Circling back to a subject that I've mentioned before, I favor having
meetings of the WMF Board be open and recorded by default, with limited
exceptions for discussions of legally privileged information and other
subjects for which there is a strong reason that deliberations should
remain private. Note that "wiki-political sensitivity" is not one of those
reasons.

I hope that recent events illustrate that it may be better to be
transparent from the beginning than try to suppress information that
eventually leaks out or emerges after a lengthy series of questions.

The WMF Board minutes tend to be brief, and the Board's deliberations are
rarely public. This is disappointing for an organization in the open source
movement. WMF should be an exemplar of transparent and open governance.

To illustrate the kind of detail that can be omitted from Board minutes and
the temptation to omit information for questionable reasons, I suggest this
clip from the British satire "Yes, Minister", in which two civil servants
discuss the Prime Minister's wish to suppress the publication of a chapter
of a book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNKjShmHw7s

I hope that, as the WMF Board moves forward, it transforms into a model of
transparency and openness; less "Yes, Minister" and paralysis and
resistance to the community, and more transparency and vigor in public
service. Having WMF Board meetings be open and recorded by default would be
a wonderful step in aligning the Board with the value of transparency.

Pine
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[Wikimedia-l] Affiliate-selected Board seats-candidates

[Anders Wennersten]

There are now, five days before deadline, 7 candidates and all new 
names. Last time two years ago there were only two candidates before the 
very last days before deadline and both being existing Board members.


It is very good to see so many competent candidates and representing a 
wider set of background then has have been seen before.


But we should respect the election process and keep questions and 
discussions on the candidates meta  pages.


I find it inappropriate to discuss any  of them separately on this list.

Anders




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Pine W]

Andreas,

While I understand your interest in asking these questions, I feel that
Meta would be the best venue for this discussion, preferably on a page that
is designed for Q with the Board candidates. This way, the vast majority
of the questions for Board candidates can be located in the same place.

Thanks,

Pine

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Fae,
>
> Thanks. I've also had a conversation off-list about this with another
> Wikimedian whom I greatly respect, and they have shared similar impressions
> of Susanna with me. I truly appreciate the input.
>
> For the record, I do sincerely regret writing "But she is clearly part of
> a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia". I hope
> Susanna will forgive me my rash comment.
>
> Where does that leave us?
>
> It is entirely possible that Susanna's interest in Wikipedia is a mere
> hobby, and unrelated to her long and distinguished government career. And
> indeed, unless she tells us otherwise, we should assume that this is so.
>
> But we still need to account for the fact that the Armenian Minister of
> Education and Science and his deputy have both made appearances as featured
> speakers at Wikimedia Armenia events (along with similar appearances by the
> country's president, prime minister and minister of culture).[1][2][3]
>
> These politicians are, at however many levels' remove, Susanna's bosses in
> her professional life if she is a manager at the State Committee of
> Science. And they cannot be unaware of her role, given that she introduced
> them at the events where they spoke.
>
> So I would like to hear from Susanna how easy it would be for her to
> disobey direct instructions from her superiors related to her Wikimedia
> volunteer work, because *they* are clearly taking a keen interest in the
> development of Wikimedia projects in Armenia.
>
> There is another matter I would like to ask Susanna about. At the 2012
> WikiConference in Yerevan, Susanna introduced Igor Klimko as a featured
> speaker, according to the event's page on Meta[1]. Klimko was then the CEO
> of Armenia Telephone Company ("ArmenTel"), the major provider of telephone
> and broadband services in Armenia (part of the VimpelCom group).
>
> Klimko was more recently named in media reports as the prime suspect in a
> $500 million money laundering scandal.[4] Klimko, who has reportedly fled
> to Moscow,[4] claimed last week to have acted on instructions of Armenia's
> National Security Service.[5] The National Security Service denies that,
> and the case is ongoing.[5]
>
> I would be interested in hearing from Susanna whether Klimko financially
> supported the Wikimedia Armenia effort, and if not, how he came to speak at
> the 2012 WikiConference.
>
> A number of people have mentioned the need to "assume good faith". Let's
> not forget that we've had this kind of situation involving state leaders
> before, where people were "assuming good faith" and got burnt.[6] The sheer
> concentration of political leaders crowding in on the Wikimedia Armenia
> effort was eerily reminiscent of that situation to me. But I should not
> have said what I did, the way I said it, and I'm sorry.
>
> So let's assume good faith of Susanna, but please let's also do due
> diligence, in as respectful and kind manner as we can muster.
>
> I've made Susanna aware of this discussion.
>
> Andreas
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule
> [3]
>
> http://www.president.am/en/press-release/item/2015/06/19/President-Serzh-Sargsyan-visit-Wikimedia/
> [4]
>
> https://www.occrp.org/en/40-press-releases/presss-releases/4871-occrp-rise-euractiv-launch-internet-ownership-project
> [5]
>
> http://hetq.am/eng/news/65992/armentel-$500-million-swindle-employees-phone-messages-monitored.html
> [6] http://www.eurasianet.org/node/72831
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Fæ  wrote:
>
> > On 2 March 2016 at 23:15, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> > ...
> > > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of
> her.
> > > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> > enthusiasm
> > > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
> > have
> > > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part
> of
> > a
> > > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
> >
> > I did have the pleasure of meeting Susanna a few years ago, and
> > because she was a bit embarrassed about her hesitant spoken English, I
> > took care to spend a little extra one to one time to encourage her to
> > share a few views and explain what she had been up to in Armenia and
> > her thoughts on getting a new chapter going in a small community.
> > She's incredibly passionate about Wikipedia and its power to share
> > information about Armenia and its people 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Andreas Kolbe]

Fae,

Thanks. I've also had a conversation off-list about this with another
Wikimedian whom I greatly respect, and they have shared similar impressions
of Susanna with me. I truly appreciate the input.

For the record, I do sincerely regret writing "But she is clearly part of
a government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia". I hope
Susanna will forgive me my rash comment.

Where does that leave us?

It is entirely possible that Susanna's interest in Wikipedia is a mere
hobby, and unrelated to her long and distinguished government career. And
indeed, unless she tells us otherwise, we should assume that this is so.

But we still need to account for the fact that the Armenian Minister of
Education and Science and his deputy have both made appearances as featured
speakers at Wikimedia Armenia events (along with similar appearances by the
country's president, prime minister and minister of culture).[1][2][3]

These politicians are, at however many levels' remove, Susanna's bosses in
her professional life if she is a manager at the State Committee of
Science. And they cannot be unaware of her role, given that she introduced
them at the events where they spoke.

So I would like to hear from Susanna how easy it would be for her to
disobey direct instructions from her superiors related to her Wikimedia
volunteer work, because *they* are clearly taking a keen interest in the
development of Wikimedia projects in Armenia.

There is another matter I would like to ask Susanna about. At the 2012
WikiConference in Yerevan, Susanna introduced Igor Klimko as a featured
speaker, according to the event's page on Meta[1]. Klimko was then the CEO
of Armenia Telephone Company ("ArmenTel"), the major provider of telephone
and broadband services in Armenia (part of the VimpelCom group).

Klimko was more recently named in media reports as the prime suspect in a
$500 million money laundering scandal.[4] Klimko, who has reportedly fled
to Moscow,[4] claimed last week to have acted on instructions of Armenia's
National Security Service.[5] The National Security Service denies that,
and the case is ongoing.[5]

I would be interested in hearing from Susanna whether Klimko financially
supported the Wikimedia Armenia effort, and if not, how he came to speak at
the 2012 WikiConference.

A number of people have mentioned the need to "assume good faith". Let's
not forget that we've had this kind of situation involving state leaders
before, where people were "assuming good faith" and got burnt.[6] The sheer
concentration of political leaders crowding in on the Wikimedia Armenia
effort was eerily reminiscent of that situation to me. But I should not
have said what I did, the way I said it, and I'm sorry.

So let's assume good faith of Susanna, but please let's also do due
diligence, in as respectful and kind manner as we can muster.

I've made Susanna aware of this discussion.

Andreas

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule
[3]
http://www.president.am/en/press-release/item/2015/06/19/President-Serzh-Sargsyan-visit-Wikimedia/
[4]
https://www.occrp.org/en/40-press-releases/presss-releases/4871-occrp-rise-euractiv-launch-internet-ownership-project
[5]
http://hetq.am/eng/news/65992/armentel-$500-million-swindle-employees-phone-messages-monitored.html
[6] http://www.eurasianet.org/node/72831

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Fæ  wrote:

> On 2 March 2016 at 23:15, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> ...
> > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> enthusiasm
> > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
> have
> > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of
> a
> > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
>
> I did have the pleasure of meeting Susanna a few years ago, and
> because she was a bit embarrassed about her hesitant spoken English, I
> took care to spend a little extra one to one time to encourage her to
> share a few views and explain what she had been up to in Armenia and
> her thoughts on getting a new chapter going in a small community.
> She's incredibly passionate about Wikipedia and its power to share
> information about Armenia and its people with the rest of the world.
> I'm sure that others would get the same impression if she made a video
> pitch rather than just the written word.
>
> I can be suckered by a skilled politician (though I'm more likely to
> get irritated!), however Susanna just came over as a terribly nice,
> completely genuine woman, with the type of energetic enthusiasm for
> open knowledge that it is a delight to encounter. This is an open
> election process, so if any questions were put to her through the
> election meta pages about possibly appearances of conflict of
> interest, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Chris Sherlock]

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 3:35 PM, Keegan Peterzell  wrote:
>> 
>> ​Write words with measured logic and sound emotions.
>> 
>> 
> ​"Strike that, reverse it." ~ Willy Wonka[0]
> 
> Sound logic and measured emotions.
> 
> 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWJo2EZW8yU​

Thank goodness. I was trying to work out for ages what wasn’t quite right about 
that!

Agreed +1 from me also. 

Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:31 PM, Keegan Peterzell 
wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:01 PM, Pine W  wrote:
>
>> Hi Keegan,
>>
>> I'm fond of the principle of civility. I'm wondering how you suggest that
>> we balance civility with the need to hold people accountable. For example,
>> if someone makes a series of highly problematic decisions, or commits a
>> wikifelony in their particular role (for example, blatant misuse of
>> CheckUser, or misappropriation of movement funds), it may be that "the
>> needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and that the Wikimedia
>> community would be best served by having that person step down or be
>> removed. The community, WMF, and arbitration committees have removed
>> people
>> from various offices who have messed up, usually repeatedly or seriously.
>> So I'm wondering how you suggest that we balance civility and
>> accountability. I feel that it's tough to do, and would like to hear
>> suggestions.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Pine
>
>
> ​Write words with measured logic and sound emotions.
>
>
​"Strike that, reverse it." ~ Willy Wonka[0]

Sound logic and measured emotions.

0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWJo2EZW8yU​


-- 
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Sam Klein]

+1

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 11:11 PM, Anna Stillwell 
wrote:

> I agree to do so. I'll help you constructively remind.
> Thank you.
> /a
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Keegan Peterzell 
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock <
> chris.sherloc...@gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
> > > events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
> > >
> > > Just a thought.
> > >
> >
> > ​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the
> issues
> > at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in
> events
> > and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.
> >
> > Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about the
> > issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is a
> > very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see this,
> > as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
> > every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two
> other
> > toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.
> >
> > 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
> > 1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/
> >
> > --
> > ~Keegan
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
> >
> > This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email
> address
> > is in a personal capacity.
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Anna Stillwell
> Major Gifts Officer
> Wikimedia Foundation
> 415.806.1536
> *www.wikimediafoundation.org *
> ___
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> 
>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:01 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> Hi Keegan,
>
> I'm fond of the principle of civility. I'm wondering how you suggest that
> we balance civility with the need to hold people accountable. For example,
> if someone makes a series of highly problematic decisions, or commits a
> wikifelony in their particular role (for example, blatant misuse of
> CheckUser, or misappropriation of movement funds), it may be that "the
> needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and that the Wikimedia
> community would be best served by having that person step down or be
> removed. The community, WMF, and arbitration committees have removed people
> from various offices who have messed up, usually repeatedly or seriously.
> So I'm wondering how you suggest that we balance civility and
> accountability. I feel that it's tough to do, and would like to hear
> suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pine


​Write words with measured logic and sound emotions.

Don't write words with outlandish hyperbole, conspiracy theories,
destructive criticism, gross assumptions and stereotypes, and massively
loaded language.​


-- 
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Fæ]

On 2 March 2016 at 23:15, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
...
> I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm
> for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have
> no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.

I did have the pleasure of meeting Susanna a few years ago, and
because she was a bit embarrassed about her hesitant spoken English, I
took care to spend a little extra one to one time to encourage her to
share a few views and explain what she had been up to in Armenia and
her thoughts on getting a new chapter going in a small community.
She's incredibly passionate about Wikipedia and its power to share
information about Armenia and its people with the rest of the world.
I'm sure that others would get the same impression if she made a video
pitch rather than just the written word.

I can be suckered by a skilled politician (though I'm more likely to
get irritated!), however Susanna just came over as a terribly nice,
completely genuine woman, with the type of energetic enthusiasm for
open knowledge that it is a delight to encounter. This is an open
election process, so if any questions were put to her through the
election meta pages about possibly appearances of conflict of
interest, funding etc., I have no doubt she would take them seriously
and try to address them up front.[1] Try doing that, and be polite
about it, I would regret her leaving the election process feeling her
fingers had been burnt just for daring to put her name forward.

Links
1. 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominations/Susanna_Mkrtchyan

Fae
-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Anna Stillwell]

I agree to do so. I'll help you constructively remind.
Thank you.
/a

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Keegan Peterzell 
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock  >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
> > events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
>
> ​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the issues
> at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in events
> and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.
>
> Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about the
> issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is a
> very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see this,
> as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
> every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two other
> toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.
>
> 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
> 1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



-- 
Anna Stillwell
Major Gifts Officer
Wikimedia Foundation
415.806.1536
*www.wikimediafoundation.org *
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Pine W]

Hi Keegan,

I'm fond of the principle of civility. I'm wondering how you suggest that
we balance civility with the need to hold people accountable. For example,
if someone makes a series of highly problematic decisions, or commits a
wikifelony in their particular role (for example, blatant misuse of
CheckUser, or misappropriation of movement funds), it may be that "the
needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and that the Wikimedia
community would be best served by having that person step down or be
removed. The community, WMF, and arbitration committees have removed people
from various offices who have messed up, usually repeatedly or seriously.
So I'm wondering how you suggest that we balance civility and
accountability. I feel that it's tough to do, and would like to hear
suggestions.

Thanks,

Pine

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Keegan Peterzell 
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock  >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
> > events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
>
> ​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the issues
> at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in events
> and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.
>
> Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about the
> issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is a
> very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see this,
> as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
> every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two other
> toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.
>
> 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
> 1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Pine W]

Speaking in general terms, I like the idea of requiring early and public
disclosures of conflicts of interests that seem reasonably likely.

Also speaking in general terms, I'm aware of a number of Wikimedians in the
United States and Canada who are directly employed by government
organizations, and who seem to be good about managing their potential
conflicts of interest. It certainly seems to me that being a government
employee should, in general terms, be seen as no more or less a potential
conflict than being an employee of Google or any number of other
organizations that have complicated relationships with Wikimedia. Sometimes
the interests of these organizations are compatible with Wikimedia, and
sometimes they're not. In my experience most people who proactively
disclose their affiliations are good about managing them. I would worry
much more about someone who conceals a potentially troublesome association
than someone who proactively discloses their associations a manner that's
reasonable for someone who's in their particular role in the Wikimedia
movement.

Pine

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Pete Forsyth  wrote:

> Cristian, when I said I heartily endorse what Asaf said, I meant exactly
> that. I agree with him, and with you, that accusatory email threads without
> evidence are toxic, and should be avoided.
>
> But questions about Conflict of Interest are appropriate. In a Board
> selection process, we do not merely Assume Good Faith, we Assess the
> Conditions Impacting Good Faith.
>
> Or at least, we should.
>
> -Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Cristian Consonni  >
> wrote:
>
> > 2016-03-03 2:06 GMT+01:00 Pete Forsyth :
> > > I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:
> > >
> > > When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes
> > > beyond Assume Good Faith.
> >
> > Yes, but please also note the difference between "assume good faith"
> > and the moral duty of refraining from making unsubstantiated claims of
> > being part of a corrupt and despotic system.
> >
> > Compare the last email from Andreas in this thread with the first two
> > and draw your own conclusions.
> >
> > I would like that everybody on this list tries to hold up to the (much
> > lower) second standard.
> >
> > You are of course welcome to ask tough questions to the candidates.
> > IMHO, tough questions are usually so, because they present evidence to
> > back their contents.
> >
> > C
> >
> > ___
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> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter: Issues needing addressing by the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees

[Austin Hair]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:50 AM, Philippe Beaudette
 wrote:
> It is deeply unsettling to have my WHAT?  I confirmed no such thing, and
> your misrepresentations do you no favors.
>
> One thing I have learned over the last few years is that it is impossible
> to have a conversation in a spirit of openness when one party so wildly
> misrepresents the statements of the other. That's not good faith dealing.
>
> Therefore, I won't be continuing this discussion with you.

It's only been fifteen minutes, but it seems that Richard managed to
beat me to moderating him.

He won't be continuing any discussion, until he can bring something
approaching sanity to the table.

Austin

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter: Issues needing addressing by the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees

[Philippe Beaudette]

It is deeply unsettling to have my WHAT?  I confirmed no such thing, and
your misrepresentations do you no favors.

One thing I have learned over the last few years is that it is impossible
to have a conversation in a spirit of openness when one party so wildly
misrepresents the statements of the other. That's not good faith dealing.

Therefore, I won't be continuing this discussion with you.

pb

On Wednesday, March 2, 2016, David Emrany  wrote:

> Philippe
>
> There is no public evidence of your misleading statements re years of
> careful planning.and execution.
>
> What there is public evidence of is that the WMF has systematically
> evaded its enforcement responsibilities under the Terms of Use.
>
> To cite 1 specific instance, Sue Gardner was repeatedly informed about
> the pedo on-wiki grooming by User Demiurge1000
>
> "Who is responsible for child protection ?"
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sue_Gardner=10496213#Response_to_your_question
>
> It is deeply unsettling to have your confirmation that Sue Gardner sat
> on this for years and it was only Lila (an outsider with no great ties
> to the community) who could globally ban this user out.
>
> PS: You surely recall “I won’t allow the accusations that the anon is
> making to stand on my talk page. I’ve redacted them. Philippe
> Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2014 (UTC)”
>
> David
>
> On 3/2/16, Philippe Beaudette >
> wrote:
> > Additionally, I believe Coren was referring to the expanded TOU as a
> whole,
> > not to that amendment alone.  And I agree with him, for the record.
> >
> > Lila's support in expanding the size of the CA team was useful in helping
> > to combat the abuses mentioned, but the vast majority of the systemic
> work
> > took place under Sue, and was the result of years of careful planning and
> > execution.
> >
> > pb
> >
>
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-- 


Philippe Beaudette

phili...@beaudette.me
415-275-1424
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter: Issues needing addressing by the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees

[David Emrany]

Philippe

There is no public evidence of your misleading statements re years of
careful planning.and execution.

What there is public evidence of is that the WMF has systematically
evaded its enforcement responsibilities under the Terms of Use.

To cite 1 specific instance, Sue Gardner was repeatedly informed about
the pedo on-wiki grooming by User Demiurge1000

"Who is responsible for child protection ?"
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sue_Gardner=10496213#Response_to_your_question

It is deeply unsettling to have your confirmation that Sue Gardner sat
on this for years and it was only Lila (an outsider with no great ties
to the community) who could globally ban this user out.

PS: You surely recall “I won’t allow the accusations that the anon is
making to stand on my talk page. I’ve redacted them. Philippe
Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2014 (UTC)”

David

On 3/2/16, Philippe Beaudette  wrote:
> Additionally, I believe Coren was referring to the expanded TOU as a whole,
> not to that amendment alone.  And I agree with him, for the record.
>
> Lila's support in expanding the size of the CA team was useful in helping
> to combat the abuses mentioned, but the vast majority of the systemic work
> took place under Sue, and was the result of years of careful planning and
> execution.
>
> pb
>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Pete Forsyth]

Cristian, when I said I heartily endorse what Asaf said, I meant exactly
that. I agree with him, and with you, that accusatory email threads without
evidence are toxic, and should be avoided.

But questions about Conflict of Interest are appropriate. In a Board
selection process, we do not merely Assume Good Faith, we Assess the
Conditions Impacting Good Faith.

Or at least, we should.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Cristian Consonni 
wrote:

> 2016-03-03 2:06 GMT+01:00 Pete Forsyth :
> > I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:
> >
> > When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes
> > beyond Assume Good Faith.
>
> Yes, but please also note the difference between "assume good faith"
> and the moral duty of refraining from making unsubstantiated claims of
> being part of a corrupt and despotic system.
>
> Compare the last email from Andreas in this thread with the first two
> and draw your own conclusions.
>
> I would like that everybody on this list tries to hold up to the (much
> lower) second standard.
>
> You are of course welcome to ask tough questions to the candidates.
> IMHO, tough questions are usually so, because they present evidence to
> back their contents.
>
> C
>
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Chris Sherlock 
wrote:

>
>
> I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause
> events that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.
>
> Just a thought.
>

​It is not hard to keep discussions involving people relevant to the issues
at hand, and discuss people in context of their role or influence in events
and decision making, and these discussions are good to have.

Starting threads pointedly about individuals, with discussions about the
issues only tangential to the point of the attack on the individual is a
very different thing, one that I think most recognize when they see this,
as well as other threads that are coatracks and sea lioning.[0][1] For
every positive thread we're generating, we're producing at least two other
toxic threads. And we're tolerating it. We have to stop.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Coatrack
1. http://wondermark.com/1k62/

-- 
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Cristian Consonni]

2016-03-03 2:06 GMT+01:00 Pete Forsyth :
> I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:
>
> When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes
> beyond Assume Good Faith.

Yes, but please also note the difference between "assume good faith"
and the moral duty of refraining from making unsubstantiated claims of
being part of a corrupt and despotic system.

Compare the last email from Andreas in this thread with the first two
and draw your own conclusions.

I would like that everybody on this list tries to hold up to the (much
lower) second standard.

You are of course welcome to ask tough questions to the candidates.
IMHO, tough questions are usually so, because they present evidence to
back their contents.

C

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Chris Sherlock]

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 10:49 AM, Keegan Peterzell  wrote:
> 
> There's a quote popularly attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt:
> 
> "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds
> discuss people."[0]
> 
> Now, I'm not calling any particular people small minded, nor am I
> suggesting we stop talking about issues. What I am suggesting is that we
> talk about issues, and not people. The axe grinding and personal
> denigrations are being pushed further and further to the limits during this
> turmoil, and I humbly ask that it stop, and that moderation is used if
> needed to do so. I'll have no sympathy for those who wish to continue to go
> after fellow human beings for political gain.
> 
> 0. http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/11/18/great-minds/
> 
> -- 
> ~Keegan

I agree with this, though I wonder about what to do when people cause events 
that damage the central ideas and tenants of an organization.

Just a thought. 

Chris


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Pete Forsyth]

I heartily endorse what Asaf has said here, but I'd add one thing:

When someone runs for the board, that introduces a standard that goes
beyond Assume Good Faith. Ultimately, if appointed, a Trustee will need to
disclose any Conflicts of Interest. But those disclosures, as I understand
it, are not public; and waiting until the moment of appointment is less
than ideal.

I believe all candidates should be asked tough questions about possible
COI. This would have included me, when I ran last summer; I was asked some
good questions in private, but the public questioning was not very
substantive.[1] It should also apply to those appointed directly to the
board -- hopefully, the board has processes to assess COI prior to
appointment and required disclosure.

The traditional structure of the questioning on Meta Wiki is not especially
conducive to this; because every candidate's situation is unique. I believe
questions on COI should be tailored to each candidate's resume, not merely
asked as an abstract question. This might be a good issue for the election
committees to consider.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_elections/Board_elections/2015/Questions/1#Conflict_of_Interest_disclosure

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
> > Asaf,
> >
> > I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said
> > that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.
> >
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> > Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under
> > the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who
> along
> > with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured
> speaker
> > at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of
> Wikimedia
> > Armenia.[1][2]
> >
> > I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.
> >
>
> I think it's fair to say any contact with a government (or similarly
> powerful entity) is *potentially* concerning.  But between potentially
> concerning and actually concerning, there is the all-too-crucial need for
> substantive evidence or cause for concern.
>
> As has been pointed out, quite a few Wikipedians are or were part of the
> civil service or otherwise close to powerful people in their regimes.  So
> long as there is no reason to suspect they are not managing their potential
> conflict of interest, we must assume good faith.
>
>A.
> --
> Asaf Bartov
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
> https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Asaf Bartov]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Asaf,
>
> I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said
> that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.
>

Thank you.


> Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under
> the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along
> with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker
> at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia
> Armenia.[1][2]
>
> I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.
>

I think it's fair to say any contact with a government (or similarly
powerful entity) is *potentially* concerning.  But between potentially
concerning and actually concerning, there is the all-too-crucial need for
substantive evidence or cause for concern.

As has been pointed out, quite a few Wikipedians are or were part of the
civil service or otherwise close to powerful people in their regimes.  So
long as there is no reason to suspect they are not managing their potential
conflict of interest, we must assume good faith.

   A.
-- 
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation 

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Andreas Kolbe]

Asaf,

I hear you. My apologies to Susanna and the list for anything I have said
that cast aspersions on Susanna's character.

Nevertheless, I remain concerned. She is part of a state committee under
the authority of the Armenian Minister of Education and Science, who along
with other senior political figures has repeatedly been a featured speaker
at Wikimedia Armenia events during her tenure as the President of Wikimedia
Armenia.[1][2]

I do not consider that sort of government proximity healthy or advisable.

Andreas

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2015/Schedule
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConference_Yerevan_2012/Schedule

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Asaf Bartov  wrote:

> I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in Armenia
> since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants officer.
> During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian, building
> community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their best work,
> and building partnerships with cultural institutions as well as government
> in her country.  I have had the pleasure of visiting Armenia last year and
> seeing up close one of Susanna's impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as
> well as attending and speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national
> archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.
>
> Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's commitment to
> movement values, *despite* working in a country struggling with
> corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and relatively weak democratic
> discipline.  Indeed, I have personally witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts
> at co-optation of Wikimedia Armenia's work.
>
> I encourage Andreas to retract his accusations ("clearly" etc.).
> Expressing a concern that there *might* be government interference was
> perhaps legitimate, but proceeding to besmirch Susanna and her work without
> evidence is unacceptable.
>
>Asaf
>
> [1] let us remember countries in the west struggle with tremendous
> corruption too, albeit manifested more financially than ideologically.
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Cristian Consonni  >
> wrote:
>
> > 2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> > > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of
> her.
> > > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> > enthusiasm
> > > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
> > have
> > > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part
> of
> > a
> > > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > 2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> > > Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  Sometimes a
> > > cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather
> > > extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
> > had
> > > a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > 2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan :
> > > Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level
> > > government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm
> > > asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that
> because
> > > she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
> > that
> > > Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
> >
> > Andreas,
> >
> > You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely
> > unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not
> > knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
> >
> > The only person that thinks that  "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a
> > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
> >
> > As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic
> > and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you
> > have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the
> > fact that Susanna is Armenian.
> >
> > The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in
> > the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be
> > volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the
> > Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a
> > grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small,
> > flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through
> > its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was
> > a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single
> > moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of
> > Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never
> > there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of
> > the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Gnangarra]

so much for  "Assume good faith"

On 3 March 2016 at 08:31, Cristian Consonni  wrote:

> 2016-03-03 1:20 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> > I think that top-level government interference in Wikipedia harms people
> in
> > the movement and its mission, especially if the government in question
> has
> > a less than stellar press freedom record.
>
> Yes, of course, but until you have any proof to link what Susanna and
> Wikimedia Armenia have being doing you are "which-hunting" exactly as
> those Soviet governments did in the past with the people that opposed
> them.
>
> C
>
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>



-- 
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Cristian Consonni]

2016-03-03 1:20 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> I think that top-level government interference in Wikipedia harms people in
> the movement and its mission, especially if the government in question has
> a less than stellar press freedom record.

Yes, of course, but until you have any proof to link what Susanna and
Wikimedia Armenia have being doing you are "which-hunting" exactly as
those Soviet governments did in the past with the people that opposed
them.

C

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Asaf Bartov]

I would like to add that I have been following Susanna's work in Armenia
since 2011, and have had occasion to evaluate it as a grants officer.
During these five years, Susanna has been an exemplary Wikimedian, building
community around her, empowering other volunteers to do their best work,
and building partnerships with cultural institutions as well as government
in her country.  I have had the pleasure of visiting Armenia last year and
seeing up close one of Susanna's impressive projects -- the Wikicamp -- as
well as attending and speaking at a conference at Matenadaran (the national
archive) and meeting many Armenian Wikipedians.

Nothing I have seen leads me to be concerned about Susanna's commitment to
movement values, *despite* working in a country struggling with
corruption[1], ongoing military conflict, and relatively weak democratic
discipline.  Indeed, I have personally witnessed Susanna *resist* attempts
at co-optation of Wikimedia Armenia's work.

I encourage Andreas to retract his accusations ("clearly" etc.).
Expressing a concern that there *might* be government interference was
perhaps legitimate, but proceeding to besmirch Susanna and her work without
evidence is unacceptable.

   Asaf

[1] let us remember countries in the west struggle with tremendous
corruption too, albeit manifested more financially than ideologically.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Cristian Consonni 
wrote:

> 2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> enthusiasm
> > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
> have
> > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of
> a
> > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
>
> [...]
>
> 2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> > Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  Sometimes a
> > cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather
> > extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
> had
> > a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
>
> [...]
>
> 2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan :
> > Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level
> > government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm
> > asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because
> > she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
> that
> > Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
>
> Andreas,
>
> You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely
> unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not
> knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
>
> The only person that thinks that  "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
>
> As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic
> and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you
> have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the
> fact that Susanna is Armenian.
>
> The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in
> the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be
> volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the
> Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a
> grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small,
> flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through
> its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was
> a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single
> moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of
> Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never
> there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of
> the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting.
> In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time)
> there were and there are several avenues to criticize  - also
> privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes -  what the
> chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a
> single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are
> making from nothing.
>
> Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia
> Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.
>
> I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in
> my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.
>
> Cristian
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_round2/Wikimedia_Armenia/Proposal_form#Praise_and_one_question
> [2]
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Andreas Kolbe]

Cristian,

I think that top-level government interference in Wikipedia harms people in
the movement and its mission, especially if the government in question has
a less than stellar press freedom record.

Andreas

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Cristian Consonni 
wrote:

> 2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> > I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> > She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine
> enthusiasm
> > for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that
> have
> > no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of
> a
> > government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
>
> [...]
>
> 2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> > Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  Sometimes a
> > cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather
> > extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even
> had
> > a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?
>
> [...]
>
> 2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan :
> > Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level
> > government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm
> > asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because
> > she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia
> that
> > Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
>
> Andreas,
>
> You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely
> unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not
> knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.
>
> The only person that thinks that  "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.
>
> As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic
> and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you
> have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the
> fact that Susanna is Armenian.
>
> The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in
> the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be
> volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the
> Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a
> grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small,
> flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through
> its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was
> a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single
> moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of
> Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never
> there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of
> the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting.
> In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time)
> there were and there are several avenues to criticize  - also
> privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes -  what the
> chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a
> single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are
> making from nothing.
>
> Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia
> Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.
>
> I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in
> my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.
>
> Cristian
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_round2/Wikimedia_Armenia/Proposal_form#Praise_and_one_question
> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2014-2015_round_2#Wikimedia_Armenia
>
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> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Gabriel Wicke]

Thank you. I wholeheartedly agree with your point, and hope that we
can find the courage to remind each other of this more often. Small,
early reminders can go a long way towards avoiding a gradual erosion
of boundaries.

Gabriel

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Denny Vrandecic
 wrote:
> Thanks. I also got reminded about that a few times, recently. I would love
> this to be more reflected upon.
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Keegan Peterzell 
> wrote:
>
>> There's a quote popularly attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt:
>>
>> "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds
>> discuss people."[0]
>>
>> Now, I'm not calling any particular people small minded, nor am I
>> suggesting we stop talking about issues. What I am suggesting is that we
>> talk about issues, and not people. The axe grinding and personal
>> denigrations are being pushed further and further to the limits during this
>> turmoil, and I humbly ask that it stop, and that moderation is used if
>> needed to do so. I'll have no sympathy for those who wish to continue to go
>> after fellow human beings for political gain.
>>
>> 0. http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/11/18/great-minds/
>>
>> --
>> ~Keegan
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>>
>> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
>> is in a personal capacity.
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>> 
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> 



-- 
Gabriel Wicke
Principal Engineer, Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Cristian Consonni]

2016-03-03 0:15 GMT+01:00 Andreas Kolbe :
> I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm
> for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have
> no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.

[...]

2016-03-03 0:26 GMT+01:00 Risker :
> Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  Sometimes a
> cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather
> extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even had
> a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?

[...]

2016-03-03 0:33 GMT+01:00 Nathan :
> Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level
> government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm
> asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because
> she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia that
> Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?

Andreas,

You are making very strong and, what's worse, completely
unsubstantiated accusations towards a person while admitting of not
knowing her, her history and her contributions to the movement.

The only person that thinks that  "she [Susanna] is clearly part of a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia" is you.

As Risker already noted your reasoning contains majors leaps of logic
and I find that your behavior is frankly appalling. As Nathan said you
have no evidence to support anything of what you have said besides the
fact that Susanna is Armenian.

The FDC reviewed in May 2015 the activities of Wikimedia Armenia in
the APG 2014/2015 round 2 [1] and found all programs to be
volunteer-led and well-aligned with the values and the mission of the
Wikimedia movement. The FDC judged Wikimedia Armenia to be "a
grassroots organization with a strong volunteer base. It is small,
flexible, and able to engage with a wide range of volunteers through
its projects."[2]. The evaluation of the FDC of Wikimedia Armenia was
a praise (and a recommendation for full funding)[2]. Not in a single
moment there was the least shred of doubt that the activities of
Wikimedia Armenia could go against the values of the movement. Never
there was even the remote suspicion of Wikimedia Armenia being part of
the government-led "scheme" to oppress people that you are suggesting.
In the occasion of the APG proposal (and besides that, at any time)
there were and there are several avenues to criticize  - also
privately and anonymously, if one so needs or wishes -  what the
chapter does and what the people in the chapter do and there was not a
single instance of any kind of accusation like the ones that you are
making from nothing.

Your accusation are an insult to all the volunteers in Wikimedia
Armenia, and I think you owe them an apology, especially to Susanna.

I want you to know that I find this behavior to be toxic and that in
my opinion you are harming the people in the movement and its mission.

Cristian

[1] 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2014-2015_round2/Wikimedia_Armenia/Proposal_form#Praise_and_one_question
[2] 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2014-2015_round_2#Wikimedia_Armenia

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

[Denny Vrandecic]

Thanks. I also got reminded about that a few times, recently. I would love
this to be more reflected upon.


On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Keegan Peterzell 
wrote:

> There's a quote popularly attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt:
>
> "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds
> discuss people."[0]
>
> Now, I'm not calling any particular people small minded, nor am I
> suggesting we stop talking about issues. What I am suggesting is that we
> talk about issues, and not people. The axe grinding and personal
> denigrations are being pushed further and further to the limits during this
> turmoil, and I humbly ask that it stop, and that moderation is used if
> needed to do so. I'll have no sympathy for those who wish to continue to go
> after fellow human beings for political gain.
>
> 0. http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/11/18/great-minds/
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
>
> This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
> is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Craig Franklin]

Andreas,

Unless you have specific evidence that Susanna has been specifically
involved with anything untoward, you are smearing with guilt by association
and creating your own chilling effect, and you would owe Susanna a
retraction and apology.

Cheers,
Craig Franklin

On 3 March 2016 at 09:15, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
>  wrote:
>
> > Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a
> > state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who
> employ
> > researchers.
> >
> > I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member
> (that
> > is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not
> > legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by
> the
> > Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
>
>
> Yaroslav,
>
> In and of itself, the fact that Susanna is a government employee doesn't
> worry me either. Present WMF board member Alice Wiegand is a government
> employee too, if you will (she works as an aide to the mayor of a small
> town in Germany, according to her write-up on the WMF website).
>
> The difference between Alice's situation and Susanna's is that the Armenian
> president turned up for the opening of the Wikimedia Armenia office in
> Yerevan.[1] The German president, in contrast, has probably never even
> heard of Alice. He certainly didn't attend when Wikimedia Germany was
> launched, nor did he have members of his cabinet tell the German public on
> national TV that it was their duty to edit the German Wikipedia.
>
> The Armenian Wikipedia initiative is a matter of direct and personal
> interest to the President and government ministers of Armenia, a country
> that suppresses political dissent. It is impossible to escape the
> conclusion that the initiative is directed by them. This will be crystal
> clear to anyone in Armenia who has watched the YouTube video:[2] the
> Armenian Wikipedia will be perceived as a project of the Armenian
> government.
>
> The chilling effect on opposition sympathisers and dissidents who might
> otherwise like to participate in an open encyclopedia project is monstrous.
> The likelihood that the Armenian Wikipedia will flourish under such
> circumstances and develop into a politically neutral reference work is nil.
>
> I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm
> for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have
> no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
>
> Does it make sense to you that we cheer when Wikipedians stand up to the
> government in France, which is a fairly democratic and open country, and
> cheer equally when far more repressive regimes than that of France take
> such an intense interest in their national-language Wikipedia?
>
> What would you say if Putin started to endorse Wikimedia Russia and
> attended its events, and members of his cabinet told the public to edit
> Wikipedia as part of their civic duty?
>
> Andreas
>
> [1]
>
> http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/06/19/president-sargsyan-attends-opening-of-wikimedia-armenia-office-in-yerevan/
> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Nathan]

Is there any actual connection between Susanna and the high-level
government interest or effort around the Armenian Wikipedia? What I'm
asking is if there is anything here, other than supposition that because
she is Armenian and the Armenian government is interested in Wikipedia that
Susanna must be guilty of corruption and repression by association?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Risker]

Wow, Andreas. That's taking several major leaps of logic.  Sometimes a
cigar is just a cigar. Any reason why you brought these rather
extraordinary assumptions to this mailing list before Susanna had even had
a chance to respond to your question at her nomination page?

Risker/Anne

On 2 March 2016 at 18:15, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
>  wrote:
>
> > Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a
> > state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who
> employ
> > researchers.
> >
> > I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member
> (that
> > is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not
> > legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by
> the
> > Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
>
>
> Yaroslav,
>
> In and of itself, the fact that Susanna is a government employee doesn't
> worry me either. Present WMF board member Alice Wiegand is a government
> employee too, if you will (she works as an aide to the mayor of a small
> town in Germany, according to her write-up on the WMF website).
>
> The difference between Alice's situation and Susanna's is that the Armenian
> president turned up for the opening of the Wikimedia Armenia office in
> Yerevan.[1] The German president, in contrast, has probably never even
> heard of Alice. He certainly didn't attend when Wikimedia Germany was
> launched, nor did he have members of his cabinet tell the German public on
> national TV that it was their duty to edit the German Wikipedia.
>
> The Armenian Wikipedia initiative is a matter of direct and personal
> interest to the President and government ministers of Armenia, a country
> that suppresses political dissent. It is impossible to escape the
> conclusion that the initiative is directed by them. This will be crystal
> clear to anyone in Armenia who has watched the YouTube video:[2] the
> Armenian Wikipedia will be perceived as a project of the Armenian
> government.
>
> The chilling effect on opposition sympathisers and dissidents who might
> otherwise like to participate in an open encyclopedia project is monstrous.
> The likelihood that the Armenian Wikipedia will flourish under such
> circumstances and develop into a politically neutral reference work is nil.
>
> I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
> She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm
> for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have
> no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a
> government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.
>
> Does it make sense to you that we cheer when Wikipedians stand up to the
> government in France, which is a fairly democratic and open country, and
> cheer equally when far more repressive regimes than that of France take
> such an intense interest in their national-language Wikipedia?
>
> What would you say if Putin started to endorse Wikimedia Russia and
> attended its events, and members of his cabinet told the public to edit
> Wikipedia as part of their civic duty?
>
> Andreas
>
> [1]
>
> http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/06/19/president-sargsyan-attends-opening-of-wikimedia-armenia-office-in-yerevan/
> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter 
 wrote:

> Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a
> state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ
> researchers.
>
> I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member (that
> is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not
> legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by the
> Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav


Yaroslav,

In and of itself, the fact that Susanna is a government employee doesn't
worry me either. Present WMF board member Alice Wiegand is a government
employee too, if you will (she works as an aide to the mayor of a small
town in Germany, according to her write-up on the WMF website).

The difference between Alice's situation and Susanna's is that the Armenian
president turned up for the opening of the Wikimedia Armenia office in
Yerevan.[1] The German president, in contrast, has probably never even
heard of Alice. He certainly didn't attend when Wikimedia Germany was
launched, nor did he have members of his cabinet tell the German public on
national TV that it was their duty to edit the German Wikipedia.

The Armenian Wikipedia initiative is a matter of direct and personal
interest to the President and government ministers of Armenia, a country
that suppresses political dissent. It is impossible to escape the
conclusion that the initiative is directed by them. This will be crystal
clear to anyone in Armenia who has watched the YouTube video:[2] the
Armenian Wikipedia will be perceived as a project of the Armenian
government.

The chilling effect on opposition sympathisers and dissidents who might
otherwise like to participate in an open encyclopedia project is monstrous.
The likelihood that the Armenian Wikipedia will flourish under such
circumstances and develop into a politically neutral reference work is nil.

I don't know Susanna, and in fact until yesterday had never heard of her.
She may well be a delightful and charming person with a genuine enthusiasm
for open knowledge. There are after all many encyclopedic topics that have
no political sensitivity or relevance at all. But she is clearly part of a
government-sponsored effort to control the Armenian Wikipedia.

Does it make sense to you that we cheer when Wikipedians stand up to the
government in France, which is a fairly democratic and open country, and
cheer equally when far more repressive regimes than that of France take
such an intense interest in their national-language Wikipedia?

What would you say if Putin started to endorse Wikimedia Russia and
attended its events, and members of his cabinet told the public to edit
Wikipedia as part of their civic duty?

Andreas

[1]
http://www.armradio.am/en/2015/06/19/president-sargsyan-attends-opening-of-wikimedia-armenia-office-in-yerevan/
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:35 PM, geni  wrote:

> On 2 March 2016 at 19:58, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> > Western countries don't really have a tradition of state-published
> > encyclopedias,
>
> Wales is not a western country?
>
> https://en.wikipedia
> 


​What about states inside of Western countries?

http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/content/about-eoa

Really, the insinuations behind this thread are just absurd. We are to now
assume that all agendas are nefarious? Because everyone has one, even you,
Andreas, in posting this.

-- 
~Keegan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Mardetanha]

so now we are judging a candidate because his/her country or government ?
Susana and her team are doing really really great job, I wonder how unfair
a person  could judge a respected wikimedian.



Mardetanha

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 11:59 PM, Ziko van Dijk  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I cannot say much about the specific case, but in general: in small
> countries it is not unusual that there is only one national
> encyclopedia, and that it is directly or indirectly published or
> supported by the government or an institution close to the government.
>
> A good example is the Store Norske from Norway.
>
> http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/2.1719/kein-geld-fuer-lexika-wer-rettet-das-grosse-norwegische-1639090.html
>
> So it is not necessary to think immediately and exclusively about the
> Soviet Union.
>
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
>
> 2016-03-02 21:11 GMT+01:00 Yaroslav M. Blanter :
> > On 2016-03-02 20:58, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government
> >> employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense
> >> writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the
> >> German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an
> >> outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on
> >> human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not
> even
> >> arise.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a
> state
> > employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ
> > researchers.
> >
> > I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member
> (that
> > is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not
> > legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by
> the
> > Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[geni]

On 2 March 2016 at 19:58, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> Western countries don't really have a tradition of state-published
> encyclopedias,

Wales is not a western country?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopaedia_of_Wales


> If we had the US Secretary of Defense
> writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army,

Who exactly do you think writes our articles about US military subjects?

> or had employees of the
> German government running Wikimedia Deutschland,


Both of User:Juergen.friedrich's employers are public universities.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Discourse installation

[Denny Vrandecic]

Thanks!

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:16 PM, Erik Bernhardson <
ebernhard...@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> This test instance is not yet using OAuth to utilize SUL credentials.
> Discourse only supports OAuth2, and MediaWiki only supports OAuth1, so some
> engineering time needs to be spent to build a bridge between the two.
>
> For now, with the test, you will need to create a new account.
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Denny Vrandecic  >
> wrote:
>
> > Sorry, I don't know where else to ask - I was thinking of trying out the
> > Discourse installation, and wasn't sure if I should create a new account
> or
> > if I could just use my SUL credentials? And if the former, wouldn't that
> > later clash when we merge to something like OAuth?
> > ___
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> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Ziko van Dijk]

Hello,

I cannot say much about the specific case, but in general: in small
countries it is not unusual that there is only one national
encyclopedia, and that it is directly or indirectly published or
supported by the government or an institution close to the government.

A good example is the Store Norske from Norway.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/2.1719/kein-geld-fuer-lexika-wer-rettet-das-grosse-norwegische-1639090.html

So it is not necessary to think immediately and exclusively about the
Soviet Union.

Kind regards
Ziko


2016-03-02 21:11 GMT+01:00 Yaroslav M. Blanter :
> On 2016-03-02 20:58, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government
>> employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense
>> writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the
>> German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an
>> outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on
>> human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not even
>> arise.
>>
>>
>
> Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a state
> employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who employ
> researchers.
>
> I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member (that
> is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board as not
> legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was employed by the
> Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Discourse installation

[Erik Bernhardson]

This test instance is not yet using OAuth to utilize SUL credentials.
Discourse only supports OAuth2, and MediaWiki only supports OAuth1, so some
engineering time needs to be spent to build a bridge between the two.

For now, with the test, you will need to create a new account.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Denny Vrandecic 
wrote:

> Sorry, I don't know where else to ask - I was thinking of trying out the
> Discourse installation, and wasn't sure if I should create a new account or
> if I could just use my SUL credentials? And if the former, wouldn't that
> later clash when we merge to something like OAuth?
> ___
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> 
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[Wikimedia-l] Discourse installation

[Denny Vrandecic]

Sorry, I don't know where else to ask - I was thinking of trying out the
Discourse installation, and wasn't sure if I should create a new account or
if I could just use my SUL credentials? And if the former, wouldn't that
later clash when we merge to something like OAuth?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On 2016-03-02 20:58, Andreas Kolbe wrote:



Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government
employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense
writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the
German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an
outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records 
on
human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not 
even

arise.




Susanna is (or was) a researcher, and every researcher in Armenia is a 
state employee. There are just no non-governmental organizations who 
employ researchers.


I do think there is a problem with a potential Armenian board member 
(that is, Turkish and Azeri Wikimedians would basically consider board 
as not legitimate), but I do not think the fact that she is or was 
employed by the Academy of Sciences is in any way problematic.


Cheers
Yaroslav

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[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

[Andreas Kolbe]

A number of nominations have now come in for the affiliate-selected board
seats.[1]

One of the people who have put their names forward to date is Susanna
Mkrtchyan of Wikimedia Armenia. In her nomination statement[2] Susanna
refers to the 2014 "One Armenian, one Article" Wikipedia campaign.

The BBC reported[3] at the time that the campaign was government-supported.
The related YouTube video (in Armenian with English subtitles)[9] features
appeals for people to edit Wikipedia from (in order of appearance):

1. The Armenian Defense Minister, who says he's joining the "One Armenian,
one Article" marathon by editing an article about the Armenian army

2. The Armenian Education and Science Minister, who says creating Wikipedia
content in Armenian is part of Armenians' "duty toward our nation and
country" and indicates he will personally participate too

3. The Head of Armenian Public Radio

4. An Armenian TV announcer

5. The Head of Matenadaran Archive

Now, according to Freedom House,[4] all is not well in Armenia. Corruption
is widespread in government and law enforcement. The press is not free.[5]
Journalists have to "contend with violence and harassment", although
"Independent outlets continued to take advantage of the country’s
relatively open online space."

Clearly, the Internet presently provides a platform for opposition voices
that have trouble making themselves heard in conventional media, a fact
that the government cannot be terribly pleased about.

Returning to Susanna's nomination statement, she says that Wikimedia
Armenia has signed a contract with the "Armenian Encyclopedia Authorities"
to re-use their content.

Western countries don't really have a tradition of state-published
encyclopedias, but the Soviet Union had the Great Soviet Encyclopedia for
about sixty-five years. It was an instrument of state propaganda. Trying to
shoehorn national encyclopedias modelled on the Great Soviet Encyclopedia
into Wikipedia is a thought that seems to occur quite naturally to
politicians in ex-Soviet states, many of whom started their political
careers and held office in the days of the Soviet Union. It is a good way
of exercising control over the Internet, just like the Great Soviet
Encyclopedia was designed to shape intellectual life in the USSR.

According to her LinkedIn profile[7], in her professional life Susanna is a
Sector Manager at the State Committee of Science, which is part of the
Ministry of Education and Science of Armenia.[8]

Susanna further notes that she received an honourable mention from Jimmy
Wales at Wikimania 2015's Wikipedian of the Year award, a fact duly noted
at [[Wikipedia:Wikipedian of the Year]].[6]

Now, why are we bestowing Wikipedian of the Year honours on government
employees of repressive regimes? If we had the US Secretary of Defense
writing Wikipedia articles about the US Army, or had employees of the
German government running Wikimedia Deutschland, I'm sure there'd be an
outcry, even though those are countries with quite favourable records on
human rights, press freedom and so on. The idea of an award would not even
arise.

What is different about ex-Soviet countries that makes this a good thing to
do?

Andreas

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominations
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominations/Susanna_Mkrtchyan
[3] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28588188
[4] https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/armenia
[5] https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2015/armenia
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedian_of_the_year
[7] http://archive.is/kmcEs
[8] http://www.scs.am/en/home
[9] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zazVM3ldIuw
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A quick note about the future

[Kevin Gorman]

Chris: this is certainly not meant to constitute legal advice and it's
getting tangential any way because since we have community 'selections'
James can CERTAINLY run since it's a 'selection,' but I ran the statutory
language passed a Florida lawyer, alhough one who doesn't practice this
sort of law.  Section (1)(a)(1) starts off with "Except as provided in
paragraph (i)..." and then goes on to talk about further details regarding
director removal.  At first glance, both she and I parsed the language to
mean that the provisions of (1)(a)(1) did not apply to directors removed
under paragraph (i) - that is, a director removed without cause would not
be subject to the provsion barring him from standing for election in the
next cycle.  But this really is irrelevant, since there is no similar
provision banning the rerunning of "community selected" trustees.

Jimmy, I've been reassured by James, who I have significant trust for, that
the email James is requesting the relief of doesn't deal with confidential
WMF business.  Combined with Pete Forsyth's recent message about you using
offlist messages to attack James more viciously than you have on list, it's
starting to feel a lot like you are using the cover of 'confidential board
information' to hide an email that simply makes you look bad.  Please
release the email; if you don't within a couple of days, I'll start trying
to convince Doc James that it wouldn't be a violation of his integrity to
release your email even without your permission.  Your behavior in these
emails could itself be significant for the movement to be aware of.  You've
sent me multiple long emails; I know you have time to forward the email in
question to the list.

I'm pretty severely disappointed that the board of the largest single free
knowledge organization in the world is engaging in more vicious personal
attacks than the boards I've seen that consisted of college students, and,
equally, have been operating with less transparency.


Kevin Gorman

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Chris Sherlock 
wrote:

>
> > On 2 Mar 2016, at 5:55 AM, Kevin Gorman  wrote:
> >
> > Chris: I parse the reference to paragraph (i) in (a.1) as meaning that a
> > director removed without cause may in fact stand for the next election
> > cycle.  As far as I can tell, James was removed without cause.  Every
> > reason put forth by the BoT for his removal has been torn apart, some by
> > WMF employees.  E.g., one early frequently cited reason was that he was
> > having inappropriate discussions with WMF employees - multiple WMF
> > employees came forward to say that he promised nothing untoward in these
> > conversations, and simply listened to their feedback.  In an ideal
> > situation, Board tells the ED when they have conversations with most
> > employees, but that's only best practice in situations where Board
> alerting
> > the ED to the conversations doesn't undermine the purpose of the
> > conversations, which they would have hear.
>
> Agreed with your larger point about removal for/without cause. All I can
> say is that the bit I quoted doesn’t state for or without cause, it doesn’t
> seem to distinguish between the two modes of removal.
>
> > More importantly, as the board has made abundantly clear in recent weeks,
> > we don't have 'board elections,' we have 'community board selections' -
> the
> > board is gracious enough to allow the community to suggest board members,
> > which the board may then choose to accept or reject.  Given the fact that
> > we do *not have* board elections, I don't think there's any doubt that
> > James can stand in the next 'community board selection.’
>
> Fair point. I’m definitely not a lawyer. Nobody would be happier to see
> James stand for reelection than myself. :-)
>
> > Jimmy: I've been reassured that the specific email James has requested
> you
> > to release multiple times contains no confidential information, and the
> > fact that you aren't releasing it isn't looking good to me.  W/r/t an
> email
> > related to the removal of a community selected and trusted trustee, full
> > transparency seems necessary.  You've said the email contains nothing of
> > mindshattering significance, and I suspect you are telling the truth
> there
> > - I suspect that at most it contains you making comments to James that
> > either weren't quite true or paint yourself in a less than great light.
> > But here's the rub: even if there's nothing too important in that email,
> > the fact that you're unwilling to release it means that you still don't
> get
> > that transparency in this situation is necessary. Are you willing to
> > release the email, redacting anything you view as reasonably necessarily
> > confidential w/r/t the BoT?  I'm sure James will comment if your
> redactions
> > are excessive.  Without any confidential information, all the email is
> is a
> > document that shines more light on a situation involving the removal of 

[Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Education Newsletter: March 2016

[The Wikimedia Education Newsletter Team]

Hello Everyone,

We are sending the second quarterly Educational Newsletter. We have many
updates in this newsletter from various education programs around the
globe. We hope you enjoy the newest issue of the newsletter we are sharing
now!

On behalf of the Education Newsletter team,
Sailesh Patnaik (User:Saileshpat
)

--

Wikimedia Education Newsletter – Volume 1, Issue 2, March 2016

--
*Headlines

· Highlights

· Single
page

· Newsroom
 · Archives
 ·
Unsubscribe
*
--



   - *Argentina:* Educational hackathon about digital sources, big data,
   and Wikipedia
   

   - *Argentina and Mexico:* First mentoring program between the Argentine
   and Mexican chapters
   

   - *Czech Republic:* Czech education program turns professional with a
   new education manager
   

   - *Egypt:* Egyptian Wikimedians celebrate the seventh conference of WEP
   

   - *Nigeria:* Wikipedia workshop for students of Fountain University
   

   - *Sverige:* Teacher celebrated for excellent pedagogy with Wikipedia
   

   - *Taiwan:* Taiwanese students use Spoken Wikipedia as their service
   learning
   

   - *Global:* Education Program Historic Data Campaign
   

   - *Global:* Articles of interest in other publications
   



*--*

*Wikimedia Education Newsletter Team*
https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Newsletter

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter: Issues needing addressing by the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees

[Andreas Kolbe]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Pete Forsyth  wrote:

> We should not use off-list messages to convey thoughts that would be
> completely unacceptable if said in public. I don't want to be involved in
> stuff like that -- and I'd much rather it didn't happen to begin with.
>


I told Jimmy Wales a couple of years ago that emails he sent to me
privately, in an effort to remove conversations that should be public from
the public domain, would be forwarded to journalists. That worked. I
haven't had one since.

Andreas
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter: Issues needing addressing by the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees

[Fæ]

Hi Pete,

if Jimmy Wales' behaviour has degenerated to the level of making
personal attacks off-list while posting contradictory soft soap
on-list (such as not being against James rerunning, and he did not
want to vote James off the board but this was everyone else on the WMF
board that forced his hand), then he is the type of self-inflated
celebrity that neither the Wikimedia community or the board of the WMF
should accept as an appointed trustee, without a community vote which
will at least hold him to account for his past behaviour in a way that
his fellow trustees are obviously unable to do.

Can you please forward your complete evidence to the WMF board of
trustees? If they ever take credible action to improve governance,
then the campaign of nasty personal attacks we have seen Jimmy Wales
make over the last month against James should be examined in detail by
a "grown-up" who can give the board feedback on the minimum ethical
behaviour expected from a trustee, along with educating them as to
what "removal for cause" means and how it must apply to Jimmy Wales as
much as any other member of the board.

I find it deeply disturbing that a trustee behaving so ridiculously
childishly is at this moment a self-appointed conduit for WMF staff
feedback to the board, and a self-appointed spokesman for what the WMF
is looking for in the next CEO.

P.S. I'll be returning to Jimmy's blatant conflict of loyalties
between Wikia and the WMF, and his refusal to recognize there may be a
governance issue requiring transparent management (i.e. seeing
something mentioned in the public board meeting minutes), when the
list is quieter.

Thanks,
Fae

On 2 March 2016 at 16:45, Pete Forsyth  wrote:
> The message below went without response on the list, but there was a
> significant off-list response.
>
> Jimmy Wales wrote to James Heilman, and CC'd me. His message professed to
> praise this one, but missed its main points:
> * There was no mention of professional mediation or facilitation to work
> through disagreements
> * Jimmy Wales had *even worse* things to say about James Heilman than he
> has said in public.
>
> I won't repeat those words on a public list, but I am unimpressed with the
> tactic of moving personal attacks off list. Jimmy's message was sent 48
> hours ago, and I immediately told him the things I've said here, but there
> has been no response.
>
> We should not use off-list messages to convey thoughts that would be
> completely unacceptable if said in public. I don't want to be involved in
> stuff like that -- and I'd much rather it didn't happen to begin with.
>
> -Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Pete Forsyth 
> wrote:
>
>> Jimmy and James, I'm glad to see you both agreeing on some facts. That's
>> encouraging. But IMO you should both put some careful thought into this
>> part:
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 9:36 PM, James Heilman  wrote:
>>
>>> Finally facts are not determined by a vote. That you got unanimity for
>>> "The
>>> board.. has offered no objections to any board member discussing long term
>>> strategy with the community at any time" should make all of us worry. I
>>> have provided evidence that refutes this claim here
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2016-02-03/In_focus
>>
>>
>> As somebody who's following this, but who's not locked in a dispute, it
>> seems there is a very natural explanation for this, that should not
>> especially make us worry:
>>
>> Different people, reasonable people, can reasonably disagree about what
>> constitutes "discussing long term strategy" and what does not.
>>
>> For the entire board to agree to a statement like that does not strike me
>> as especially bad; perhaps there was a dominant idea of what constituted
>> strategy and what didn't, and everybody voted with that idea in mind,
>> without insisting on a clearer definition in the text of the statement. Not
>> ideal, I think -- but also not the end of the world.
>>
>> But Jimmy, you have repeatedly claimed that vote as evidence that James
>> told a lie.
>>
>> That claim introduces a lot of drama into the discussion -- and does
>> exactly something you stated you didn't want to do, which is publicly
>> assaulting James' reputation.
>>
>> I would suggest you both stop accusing each other of lying, long enough to
>> figure out what facts you *can* agree on. You're both Wikipedians, we do
>> this all the time. It might involve getting out of some of the language
>> patterns you've been using, e.g. getting away from abstract notions like
>> "long term strategy."
>>
>> A skilled, professional mediator, facilitator, or ombudsman can be an
>> excellent resource for working through stuff like this.
>>
>> -Pete
>> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter: Issues needing addressing by the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees

[Kevin Smith]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Sherlock 
wrote:

> My only feedback is that information is *really* scattered. I’m finding it
> hard to follow what is going on, not that this should be a concern as I’m
> not doing the work. It might be nice to have a slightly reorganized page
> for this project so we can see what is being done. I’d love to see blog
> posts from the team showing off their work. It really helps to get to grips
> with what is going on.
>

We're always trying to improve, so thanks for this feedback. We actually
proposed at least one blog post that didn't fit the criteria for blog
posts, so we're trying to use other channels. We did several presentations
at the metrics meetings, and we try to present at lightning
talks/showcases. And of course there is the Discovery mailing list[1],
which is a great source of information for what we are thinking about, and
what we have accomplished. For completeness, I'll also mention our team
wiki page[2].


> Anyway, it’s heartening to see that the Discovery team is getting on with
> it, even through all this turmoil.
>

Thanks! That's exactly what we have tried to do.


[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/discovery
[2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Discovery

Kevin
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open letter: Issues needing addressing by the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees

[Pete Forsyth]

The message below went without response on the list, but there was a
significant off-list response.

Jimmy Wales wrote to James Heilman, and CC'd me. His message professed to
praise this one, but missed its main points:
* There was no mention of professional mediation or facilitation to work
through disagreements
* Jimmy Wales had *even worse* things to say about James Heilman than he
has said in public.

I won't repeat those words on a public list, but I am unimpressed with the
tactic of moving personal attacks off list. Jimmy's message was sent 48
hours ago, and I immediately told him the things I've said here, but there
has been no response.

We should not use off-list messages to convey thoughts that would be
completely unacceptable if said in public. I don't want to be involved in
stuff like that -- and I'd much rather it didn't happen to begin with.

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Pete Forsyth 
wrote:

> Jimmy and James, I'm glad to see you both agreeing on some facts. That's
> encouraging. But IMO you should both put some careful thought into this
> part:
>
> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 9:36 PM, James Heilman  wrote:
>
>> Finally facts are not determined by a vote. That you got unanimity for
>> "The
>> board.. has offered no objections to any board member discussing long term
>> strategy with the community at any time" should make all of us worry. I
>> have provided evidence that refutes this claim here
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2016-02-03/In_focus
>
>
> As somebody who's following this, but who's not locked in a dispute, it
> seems there is a very natural explanation for this, that should not
> especially make us worry:
>
> Different people, reasonable people, can reasonably disagree about what
> constitutes "discussing long term strategy" and what does not.
>
> For the entire board to agree to a statement like that does not strike me
> as especially bad; perhaps there was a dominant idea of what constituted
> strategy and what didn't, and everybody voted with that idea in mind,
> without insisting on a clearer definition in the text of the statement. Not
> ideal, I think -- but also not the end of the world.
>
> But Jimmy, you have repeatedly claimed that vote as evidence that James
> told a lie.
>
> That claim introduces a lot of drama into the discussion -- and does
> exactly something you stated you didn't want to do, which is publicly
> assaulting James' reputation.
>
> I would suggest you both stop accusing each other of lying, long enough to
> figure out what facts you *can* agree on. You're both Wikipedians, we do
> this all the time. It might involve getting out of some of the language
> patterns you've been using, e.g. getting away from abstract notions like
> "long term strategy."
>
> A skilled, professional mediator, facilitator, or ombudsman can be an
> excellent resource for working through stuff like this.
>
> -Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wmfall] Inspire Campaign on content curation & review launches today!

[Kacie Harold]

Looking forward to all of the great ideas - thanks for your work on this,
Chris, and for kicking off the campaign with a few submission, Aaron.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Anna Stillwell 
wrote:

> Thank you. Great work.
> /a
>
> On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Aaron Halfaker 
> wrote:
>
>> I just finished submitting two ideas that I'd like to advise.
>>
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Automated_good-faith_newcomer_detection
>> Build and deploy a machine learning model for flagging newcomers who are
>> editing in good-faith. This has the potential to mitigate some of the
>> secondary, demotivational effects when good-faith newcomers' work passes
>> through curation/review processes.
>>
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Fast_and_slow_new_article_review
>> Concerns about the introduction of spam into Wikipedia has lead
>> Wikipedians towards implementing high speed new article review/curation
>> processes. The speed at which editors tag articles for deletion via these
>> processes is great for dealing with spam, but it might also be faster that
>> good-faith new article creators can build their articles. We could build a
>> machine learning classifier that is tuned to detect spammy article drafts.
>> This would allow the new pages queue to be split into a high-speed spammy
>> article review, and a low-speed article review that allows creators time to
>> make a better first draft.
>>
>> I'll submit some more when I can.  :)
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 4:56 PM, Chris "Jethro" Schilling <
>> cschill...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I am pleased to announce the launch of the second Inspire Campaign for
>>> IdeaLab.[1]  The theme of this campaign is focused on improving tasks
>>> related to content curation & review in our projects:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Reviewing and organizing tasks are fundamental to all WIkimedia
>>> projects, and these efforts maintain and directly improve the quality of
>>> our projects in addition to increasing the visibility of their content.  We
>>> invite everyone to participate by sharing your ideas and proposals on how
>>> to enhance these efforts. Constructive feedback and collaboration on ideas
>>> is encouraged - your skills and advice can elevate a project into action.
>>> The campaign runs until 29 March.
>>>
>>> All proposals are welcome - research projects, technical solutions,
>>> community organizing and outreach, or something completely new! Grants are
>>> available from the Wikimedia Foundation for projects developed during this
>>> campaign that need financial support.[2]  Google Hangout sessions are
>>> available in March if you'd like to have a conversation about your ideas.[3]
>>>
>>> Join the Inspire Campaign and let’s work together to improve review and
>>> curation tasks so that we can make our content more meaningful and
>>> accessible.
>>>
>>> With thanks,
>>>
>>> Jethro
>>>
>>> [1] You can learn more about the results of the first Inspire Campaign
>>> here: <
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Spring_2015_Inspire_campaign>
>>> [2] 
>>> [3]   (Note: If
>>> another time would work better for you, feel free to e-mail me or ping me
>>> on-wiki).
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Chris "Jethro" Schilling
>>> I JethroBT (WMF) 
>>> Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation
>>> 
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> wmf...@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wmfall
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
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> Major Gifts Officer
> Wikimedia Foundation
> 415.806.1536
> *www.wikimediafoundation.org *
>
>
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Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Katy Love to direct WMF Resources team

[Ruslan Takayev]

Derek, et al

I was not attacking Katy in any way.

I have now read Maggie's response (which I thank her for making), and
whilst from that response it may appear Katy is the best person for the
job, I still question what this "new, open approach" to recruitment at the
WMF entails...

Internal promotions with no advertizing and no interviews, etc indicates to
me there is no "new, open approach" to recruitment at the WMF. It certainly
would appear that this "new, open approach" that was touted by Lila has yet
to filter down to the wider WMF structures from the ED's office, or from
Boryana Dineva's office. Or were we being sold buzz words with no substance?

It is, of course, the WMF's right to do what it wants in terms of
recruiting and promotions but for all too long the WMF has been seen to be
an organization which favors insiders for recruitment needs.

It would have been good to see Katy sit in this position on a temporary
basis whilst a full open recruitment process was carried out...Wikimedia is
NOT the only community-driven organization out there, and for such an
important position as "Director" the WMF does itself a disservice not to
advertize for as many suitable applicants at possible.

Is Katy a good recommendation for the job as Director of Community
Resources? Sure. Is she the best person for the job? Only a fully
transparent approach to recruitment could possibly ascertain that.

It would still be great to get some words from WMF recruitment, or whatever
fanciful name they call themselves these days, on such issues.

Is Boryana Dineva back from leave yet? Perhaps she could address this "new,
open approach" to recruitment for us?

Kind regards,

Ruslan Takayev



On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 10:31 PM, Derek V.Giroulle <
derekvgirou...@wikimedia.be> wrote:

> Asaf ,
>
> First of all, by your definition of censorship then I must consider that
> my reaction to
> ruslanś message was censored, what makes ruslanś message  immune for
> censorship that
> my reaction doesn't qualify for ?
> so I reduced my criticism to the quote you made in the message below
>
> Some of the _questions_ ruslan asked certainly were legitimate, also by my
> standards
> but i was not talking about his _questions_ ... i was criticizing some of
> his "_statements_"
> and "_remarks_",  the implied comments had personal implications and thus
> were directed
> at Katy  and that was what I qualified as disrespectful of a valuable
> person.
> Ruslanś _remarks_  were imho not questioning the WMF decisions or the
> selection/decision proces,
> he was attacking the outcome ... I read that in Maggieś response also
>
> Derek
>
>
> On 27-02-16 21:37, Asaf Bartov wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Derek V.Giroulle <
>> derekvgirou...@wikimedia.be> wrote:
>>
>> I'm very sorry that  Ruslan Takayev's message got through the moderation
>>> IMHO his  statement and remarks  are not respectful
>>>
>>> I strongly disagree, Derek.  That would have been outright censorship.
>> Ruslan asked a perfectly legitimate and useful question; Maggie thought so
>> too, and provided a clear and informative response, which has the added
>> benefit of answering it for other people who may have had the same
>> question
>> as Ruslan but didn't express it.
>>
>> Questioning WMF decisions, particularly with reference to our principles
>> or
>> to previous stated positions, is certainly appropriate and legitimate, and
>> does not constitute disrespect.
>>
>>  A.
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>>
>
> --
> Kind regards,
> *Derek V. Giroulle*
> Wikimedia Belgium vzw.
> Treasurer
> Troonstraat 51 Rue du Trône, BE-1050 Brussels
> M: derekvgirou...@wikimedia.be
> T: +32 494 134134
> F: +32 3666 2700
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[Wikimedia-l] [x-post] Reminder: WMF Language Office Hour today i.e. March 2nd 2016 (Wednesday) at 1400 UTC

[Runa Bhattacharjee]

[x-posted announcement]

Hello,

A reminder that the online office hour hosted by the Wikimedia Language
team is scheduled for later today at 1400 UTC. You can join the hangout or
watch the session from:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/cbn4a2gubl4m6au3jv0gllh5t0k

Please note, due to the limitation of Google Hangouts there are few seats
available. So do let us know on the event page, if you would like to
participate on the hangout. We will also be on the IRC channel
#wikimedia-office to take questions. Please see below for the event
details, local time and original announcement.

Thanks
Runa


== Details ==

# Event: Wikimedia Language team's office hour session

# When: March 2nd, 2016 (Wednesday) at 14:00 UTC (check local time
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20160302T1400)

# Where: https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/cbn4a2gubl4m6au3jv0gllh5t0k and
on IRC #wikimedia-office (Freenode)

# Agenda: Content Translation updates and Q & A


-- Forwarded message --
From: Runa Bhattacharjee 
Date: Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 6:12 PM
Subject: WMF Language team office hour and online meeting on March 2nd 2016
(Wednesday) at 1400 UTC
To: MediaWiki internationalisation ,
Wikimedia developers , Wikimedia Mailing
List , "Wikimedia & GLAM collaboration
[Public]" 


[x-posted announcement]

Hello,

The next online office hour session of the Wikimedia Language team is
scheduled for next Wednesday, March 2nd 2016 at 14:00 UTC. This session is
going to be an online discussion over Google Hangouts/Youtube with a
simultaneous IRC conversation. Due to the limitation of Google Hangouts,
only a limited number of participation slots are available. Hence, do
please let us know (on the event page
) if you
would like to join in the Hangout. The IRC channel #wikimedia-office and
the Q channel for the youtube broadcast will be open for interactions
during the session.

Our last online round-table session was held in November 2015. You can
watch the recording here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYWZ6C4N93Y

Please read below for the event details, including local time and do let us
know if you have any questions.

Thank you
Runa

== Details ==

# Event: Wikimedia Language team's office hour session

# When: March 2nd, 2016 (Wednesday) at 14:00 UTC (check local time
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20160302T1400)

# Where: https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/cbn4a2gubl4m6au3jv0gllh5t0k and
on IRC #wikimedia-office (Freenode)

# Agenda: Content Translation updates and Q & A

-- 
Language Engineering Manager
Outreach and QA Coordinator
Wikimedia Foundation




-- 
Language Engineering Manager
Outreach and QA Coordinator
Wikimedia Foundation
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