Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Well, it's Monday SF time (4 PM if Google doesn't lie to me), and we're still waiting for some explanations on why this situations happened /at all/. -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: Well, it's Monday SF time (4 PM if Google doesn't lie to me), and we're still waiting for some explanations on why this situations happened /at all/. The problem with this kind of actions is personal inability to suppose what the action can produce. It could be a bureaucratic decision or something perceived as a small revenge, but I don't think that it would be done if the full consequences of the action were known, even the full consequences means raising this issue on wikimedia-l. If we are not talking about geeks with obsessive-compulsive disorder (where I belong from time to time), that's normal human behavior. What the real issue is and what is something which should and have to be solved, are the [cultural] norms, which the Board and the top management should enforce (mostly, through the education of staff). In that sense, it isn't productive to search for a scapegoat. The best way for dealing with the issues like this one is to make a pressure on Board and top management not to see something like this anymore. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
I can sympathize with the issue, namely, that it would be nice if only Foundation employees could be allowed admin access on their own wiki. I recall a similar issue (which was not so widely blown up) for our WMNL board wiki in the Netherlands (and yes Phoebe, that is a very boring wiki). I find it interesting to read Gayle's reaction, but I don't think she should have apologized. The way the community interacts with newbies is unforgiveable, period. This is a perfect example of the reason that many women will go away after their first few edits, or they grow some sort of special magic Wikipedia filter. Even if she was just the messenger and it was Philippe's idea, as far as the reactions to Gayle go, I agree with Philippe's it's often damn hard to wade into these waters..., but I would rather conclude with Staff members are Wikipedians too. And don't get me started on the concept of higher standards!! 2013/5/13, phoebe ayers phoebe.w...@gmail.com: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote: Casey Brown, 13/05/2013 07:05: [...] [Note that I'm speaking generally -- I personally think Gayle can handle criticism and she seems very nice. She also probably had no idea this would create dramz. My comment is directed towards the general omg think of the staff member! response to criticism that is systemic in our movement.] Still, omg think of the staff member! seems to be the point Gayle and Philippe make on this thread. If history teaches something, I guess the board will soon approve a resolution to request the development of a Personal Communitymember Filter to AT LAST hide all that offensive content in our community. MediaWiki-mailman integration offers some challenges, but our commitment to openness will swiftly help, shutting down more mailing lists in favour of wiki discussions. Nemo Au contraire, I feel we should all earn some kind of barnstar just for participating in this discussion/situation. You know, it's kind of the ultimate Wikimedian tempest: arguing over who gets to add users and delete pages on what is quite possibly the world's most boring wiki[1]... It's also a quintessentially Wikimedian debate because there's all this subtext -- assumed but not articulated -- that isn't minor at all: about community ownership versus corporate control, about who has authority to make decisions in what sphere, about the role volunteers play in the organization, over what personal reputation means on the projects, over what admin rights mean, what kind of work environment the staff have, etc.. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here and guess that Gayle wasn't intending to start a debate on all these big important topics, or even perhaps to comment on them at all. I'm also gonna say from experience that it's often damn hard to wade into these waters and take an action *without* touching off a debate on all these subjects. As someone said upthread, the golden rule does help, as does practice working with the wiki way, and knowing all the personal ins and outs of Wikimedia and our arcane culture. But *even that* doesn't always save someone from making an unpopular decision, or from screwing up or not thinking through all the ways they might be wading into a minefield -- and that goes for all of us, staff, board, community alike. Hey, ask me how I know. Sheesh, being part of the world's biggest collaborative project is hard sometimes. -- phoebe 1. I exempt, of course, the internal wiki at my workplace, which has won the crown many years running. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Lets get a few things in perspective: 1. How many community members were abusive/unreasonable/whatever beyond what might be considered a startle reaction to an apparent attack without warning? 2 How many people constitute this community Divide answer 1 by answer 2 Consider how much of the response was a snowball effect of frustration due to a distinct shortage of explanation and direct answers to what might be considered reasonable questions. And yes, Welcome to Wikipedia Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: Philippe Beaudette phili...@wikimedia.org To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 3:03 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least) So, I took Florence's excellent advice and went for a walk (beautiful day in SF, by the way - absolutely perfect). And I reflected on what I've seen since flipping the switch on things last Friday. Here's where I stand, and I haven't discussed this with anyone else at WMF, including Gayle. At the expense of sounding trite, I think I can safely say Mistakes were made. Gayle was trying to solve a real problem, and she got a lot of advice on how to do that. But the principle role of a staff member in a role such as mine is to advise, I think, and I'm afraid that I didn't offer good advice in this case. I don't think I gave bad advice - rather, I didn't give as good of advice as I could have. What our leadership should be able to expect from staff is that we look at things from a different perspective, and I think I failed to get as far out of my own head and into other peoples' to offer that varying perspective. So when I say that mistakes were made, I include my role in that, through commission or omission, and I sincerely apologize for that. With that said: I'm afraid we're headed toward a precipice. What I'm seeing scares me. I see less and less good faith being offered toward the WMF. One of the arguments that doesn't work for me is seven years ago the WMF didn't make these mistakes - because seven years ago the WMF was paralyzed from lack of strategy and direction. All of that has changed and the WMF is out and aggressively trying things to arrest the editor decline and improve the user experience. And yet, when our talented engineers try a data-driven tactic for something that needs to change, they're lambasted for forgetting the existing community. And yet everyone here knows that if we don't change some things, things will get very very ugly, very very quickly. One of the things that must continue to change is the tone on the wikis, and the tone (in IRC and by email) between staff and volunteers. I know that volunteers are individual and - in addition to several frankly abusive emails I've received this weekend, I've also received absolutely wonderful support from volunteers who reached out to make me smile, laugh, or just remind me why I love this community. But the abusive ones absolutely *must*stop. I have never once, in my entire time at WMF, sent an email that approaches the level of things that I see WMF staff subjected to routinely, and I have to counsel over and over that it's okay, they don't speak for the community, but I see the community tacitly support that behavior (or fail to condemn it), and it's hard to say with a straight face that the people sending abusive mail or making abusive statements in IRC don't speak for the community. So my challenge and my promise: I promise to reflect on the experiences of this weekend and figure out how I could have offered Gayle better advice, given the circumstances, and given the fact that there are some things that are not public about the decision, and unfortunately they can't be. My challenge to the community: think about the tone of what you see happening around you. And if you wouldn't want to see your grandmother asked a question like that, and if it would make you feel defensive to see her questioned in that tone, then step in and make it clear that the tone is unacceptable. Staff members are people too. How about finding one that has done something you appreciate (come on, there must be ONE) and tell them so? You'd be shocked how much gratitude they'll feel, because you may be the first community member EVER to tell them that. Best, pb ___ Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. 415-839-6885, x 6643 phili...@wikimedia.org On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Gayle Karen Young gyo...@wikimedia.org wrote: This definitely feels like a bit of trial by fire. True dat. Now that you have received your initiation, there's nothing left to say but WELCOME TO WIKIPEDIA :) Cheers, Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 12:00 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Lets get a few things in perspective: 1. How many community members were abusive/unreasonable/whatever beyond what might be considered a startle reaction to an apparent attack without warning? 2 How many people constitute this community Divide answer 1 by answer 2 Consider how much of the response was a snowball effect of frustration due to a distinct shortage of explanation and direct answers to what might be considered reasonable questions. And yes, Welcome to Wikipedia Cheers, Peter 2 is an unreasonable number to divide by when it's such a small cross section of the actual community on these lists. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:03 AM, James Alexander jameso...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 12:00 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Lets get a few things in perspective: 1. How many community members were abusive/unreasonable/whatever beyond what might be considered a startle reaction to an apparent attack without warning? 2 How many people constitute this community Divide answer 1 by answer 2 Consider how much of the response was a snowball effect of frustration due to a distinct shortage of explanation and direct answers to what might be considered reasonable questions. And yes, Welcome to Wikipedia Cheers, Peter 2 is an unreasonable number to divide by when it's such a small cross section of the actual community on these lists. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l That's a bit relative, James. The active folk on this mailing list make for a pretty good cross section of thoughts/feelings/opinions of the movement. I've refrained from this discussion and will continue to do so on specifics, because it's politics and that's not something I do on Wikipedia/Wikimedia. Things have been said in this discussion that I agree with, things have been said that I do not agree with. All in all, my opinion is not needed because it has been expressed by others, and I do not feel compelled to say my side. This is where we speak and we listen, and it is disheartening to read that you feel embarrassed to be from the community when you have to explain drama to them. These threads bring out the best and the worst in Wikimedians, for certain, but it's all out of cause of passion. We're here because we care, no matter the pattern or the tone of conversations. This is a global audience, intelligent, collaborative, and willing to learn. The Wikimedia Foundation is global, intelligent, and I assume good faith about collaboration and willingness to learn. Gayle's email reflects her opinion on getting this concept and working with it in the future, and I'm happy with that. All in all, I guess I just agree with Phoebe. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Just a general note, could you please all wait for Gayle to get back to her office? ^^ I think she wanted to address some of the things discussed here on Monday, which is by San Francisco time. So maybe let it rest for a few hours now? :) Th. p.s. sorry about the empty email, my mouse is broken and clicks randomly. 2013/5/13 Thomas Goldammer tho...@gmail.com 2013/5/13 Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:03 AM, James Alexander jameso...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 12:00 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Lets get a few things in perspective: 1. How many community members were abusive/unreasonable/whatever beyond what might be considered a startle reaction to an apparent attack without warning? 2 How many people constitute this community Divide answer 1 by answer 2 Consider how much of the response was a snowball effect of frustration due to a distinct shortage of explanation and direct answers to what might be considered reasonable questions. And yes, Welcome to Wikipedia Cheers, Peter 2 is an unreasonable number to divide by when it's such a small cross section of the actual community on these lists. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l That's a bit relative, James. The active folk on this mailing list make for a pretty good cross section of thoughts/feelings/opinions of the movement. I've refrained from this discussion and will continue to do so on specifics, because it's politics and that's not something I do on Wikipedia/Wikimedia. Things have been said in this discussion that I agree with, things have been said that I do not agree with. All in all, my opinion is not needed because it has been expressed by others, and I do not feel compelled to say my side. This is where we speak and we listen, and it is disheartening to read that you feel embarrassed to be from the community when you have to explain drama to them. These threads bring out the best and the worst in Wikimedians, for certain, but it's all out of cause of passion. We're here because we care, no matter the pattern or the tone of conversations. This is a global audience, intelligent, collaborative, and willing to learn. The Wikimedia Foundation is global, intelligent, and I assume good faith about collaboration and willingness to learn. Gayle's email reflects her opinion on getting this concept and working with it in the future, and I'm happy with that. All in all, I guess I just agree with Phoebe. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Hi, The Wikimedia Foundation site says the following: The Wikimedia Foundation is proud http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Values to be one of the most transparent non-profit organizations in the world. But the decission to remove administrator rights is made internaly, thats not transparent? On the WMF site people now 3? days later get a message on the talkpage. That messages says two things that are a bit conflicting: 1: We've been talking internally for a while about making the governance structure of this wiki more clear, i.e 2: I apologize, though, for the hasty implementation of this decision! Next to that only 50% of the people where the rights are removed did get that message today. As last Philippe removed all the rights and is after that pointing to other people to explain. That is just stupid, if you do something you should be able to respond to questions. Cause Phillipe pressed the button.. It would be strange and I'm sure it would be not OK if Tim Starling decided to pull the plug from all all the servers and then says you want reasons? Ask Brion... Ow wait, he is on holiday now. But now I am still wondering about the following: Where does the foundation wants to go? Cause volunteers are removed from the blog, removed from the Foundation wiki. If I read correctly its not ok from the WMF side to have volunteers to help with the Toolserver as sysadmin? What will be the next step? Remove all administrators from the projects and let it only be handled by staff? Volunteers are the reasons we have staff. Without volunteers there will be no Wikipedia / media / versity etc and they will all be out jobs. So why are removing all the volunteer functions? On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 3:03 PM, James Alexander jameso...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 12:00 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Lets get a few things in perspective: 1. How many community members were abusive/unreasonable/whatever beyond what might be considered a startle reaction to an apparent attack without warning? 2 How many people constitute this community Divide answer 1 by answer 2 Consider how much of the response was a snowball effect of frustration due to a distinct shortage of explanation and direct answers to what might be considered reasonable questions. And yes, Welcome to Wikipedia Cheers, Peter 2 is an unreasonable number to divide by when it's such a small cross section of the actual community on these lists. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Thomas, She is on holiday, she will not be in the office today? Huib On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Thomas Goldammer tho...@gmail.com wrote: Just a general note, could you please all wait for Gayle to get back to her office? ^^ I think she wanted to address some of the things discussed here on Monday, which is by San Francisco time. So maybe let it rest for a few hours now? :) Th. p.s. sorry about the empty email, my mouse is broken and clicks randomly. 2013/5/13 Thomas Goldammer tho...@gmail.com 2013/5/13 Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:03 AM, James Alexander jameso...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 12:00 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Lets get a few things in perspective: 1. How many community members were abusive/unreasonable/whatever beyond what might be considered a startle reaction to an apparent attack without warning? 2 How many people constitute this community Divide answer 1 by answer 2 Consider how much of the response was a snowball effect of frustration due to a distinct shortage of explanation and direct answers to what might be considered reasonable questions. And yes, Welcome to Wikipedia Cheers, Peter 2 is an unreasonable number to divide by when it's such a small cross section of the actual community on these lists. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l That's a bit relative, James. The active folk on this mailing list make for a pretty good cross section of thoughts/feelings/opinions of the movement. I've refrained from this discussion and will continue to do so on specifics, because it's politics and that's not something I do on Wikipedia/Wikimedia. Things have been said in this discussion that I agree with, things have been said that I do not agree with. All in all, my opinion is not needed because it has been expressed by others, and I do not feel compelled to say my side. This is where we speak and we listen, and it is disheartening to read that you feel embarrassed to be from the community when you have to explain drama to them. These threads bring out the best and the worst in Wikimedians, for certain, but it's all out of cause of passion. We're here because we care, no matter the pattern or the tone of conversations. This is a global audience, intelligent, collaborative, and willing to learn. The Wikimedia Foundation is global, intelligent, and I assume good faith about collaboration and willingness to learn. Gayle's email reflects her opinion on getting this concept and working with it in the future, and I'm happy with that. All in all, I guess I just agree with Phoebe. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On May 13, 2013, at 6:57 AM, phoebe ayers wrote: You know, it's kind of the ultimate Wikimedian tempest: arguing over who gets to add users and delete pages on what is quite possibly the world's most boring wiki[1]... I would take a stab and stay that it's not about who gets access but about how people are treated. Sending a mass email to a bunch of people saying that they no longer have admin access is pretty much like firing them by mass email with no warning - but it's probably a bit worse than that since the people who do this work do it because they love Wikipedia and because they care about it, and it's a slap in the face to be given the pink slip like this. And it is also rightfully worrying because it isn't the first time it's happened. I know this because a few years ago, while perusing the WMF wiki, I noticed that my name had moved from current to past advisory board members. Shocked, I emailed around to find out what had happened. Apparently I'd been fired and thanked for my service (another mass email that had apparently gone to my iCommons email address and which I no longer had access to) but to this day I have never received any advice on why I was removed, despite asking for clarification in person and via email on a few occasions. I don't like to whine and complain [1] and I thought that it was just me, but it made me sad and upset because I felt like I'd done a lot for Wikimedia, was one of the few advisory board members who showed up to meetings and tried to get things done, and to be discarded like that was really upsetting. This is what this is about. It's about people engaging with one another on a personal, human level and understanding what it means to be a part of this thing, this crazy wonderful thing. Maybe it also takes some deeper engagement in editing these things to understand the implications of what seems to be just a technical thing like removing rights, placing in different categories but is heavily political, heavily personal. And so I'd offer different advice from taking a walk or eating an ice cream or writing more mass emails to this list. I'd suggest that the people concerned to write personal emails to the *individuals* who were affected by this and to engage in a conversation among individuals about why this happened and how they're going to make it better together. At iCommons, when I was on the receiving end of similar anger, I had a mantra that I tried to stick to. When someone sends something that is upsetting, get on the phone with them. Sort it out one-on-one. This, for me, passionately for me, is what's needed here. Best, Heather [1] here I am whining and complaining but hopefully it is to make a point at least. Heather Ford Oxford Internet Institute Doctoral Programme www.ethnographymatters.nethttp://www.ethnographymatters.net @hfordsa on Twitter http://hblog.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
but will circle back when I return to work next Monday. (Gayle) Wait for that. Whatever time it actually means. :) Th. 2013/5/13 Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com Thomas, She is on holiday, she will not be in the office today? Huib ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
I've been watching this unfold over the weekend. And am sorely disapointed with the rudeness from ALL sides (not from everyone, it should be said) The action of removing admin access with little warning, and last thing on a Friday is obnoxious and rude. I'd expect the foundation to review policies of interacting with community members and remind staff that important or controversial actions should occur when people are available to respond in a timely fashion. I'd also like to see more explanation of foundation actions, in advance preferably. And will expect to see feedback soon on how to handle situations such as these better :) Conversely, a number of community members here should be ashamed. Righteous anger is ridiculous and pointless. Certainly if you are one of the ex-admins I can understand a level of furstration and hurt. But with few exceptions those individuals have been positively expressing that hurt. It's the others, seizing on the opportunity to swing for the foundation that are a disappointment. I've pretty much stopped trying to be an admin on EN wiki because of the attitude of entitlement that takes up so much time and energy that could be spent writing content It's sad to see this is a cross movement problem. Everyone; buck your ideas up. Tom On Monday, May 13, 2013, Thomas Goldammer wrote: but will circle back when I return to work next Monday. (Gayle) Wait for that. Whatever time it actually means. :) Th. 2013/5/13 Huib Laurens sterke...@gmail.com javascript:; Thomas, She is on holiday, she will not be in the office today? Huib ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 5/13/13 8:54 AM, Theo10011 wrote: Hi Casey First, I miss seeing you around, in case you are not omnipresent anymore. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Casey Brown li...@caseybrown.org wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Try and be a bit nicer please. Gayle is still relatively new and this level of scrutiny might be jarring for someone. Comments like these have always bothered me. Gayle isn't some random secretary or new run-of-the-mill employee. She is a C-level staff member who has been here for more than a year and made a policy decision that people have feedback on. While the feedback may not have come in the nicest form, it is still valid and we can't just ignore it because it wasn't nice enough. As a high level staff member in charge of your own department, you need to deal with it -- this is one thing that comes with the job, unfortunately. It's an insult to Gayle to assume that she will not be able to handle criticism or answer people's responses. A C-level staff member needs to be able to handle this scrutiny, even high level scrutiny, when they were the one that made the call, and I'm sure she's more than capable of doing that. Fair point. I'll concede that one, I might have a soft spot for certain people for no apparent reason. Out of anyone else affected perhaps you're truly the really slighted party in all of this, and it really wouldn't be my place to tell you to be nicer. I still find out in bits and pieces how many things Casey handled. You and Cary made these issues disappear and made a lot more currently broken things function. The cracks seem to be showing more these days, which lends credence to a theory that you and Cary might have acted as buffer points on some of these things. As both of you became more inactive, minor things start generating more friction. Perhaps, it's a bit of maturity that makes the difference here, but there is no real-world implication of C-Level - they have these tiers that supposedly imply something in staff but they aren't born different or sent to army camps for training - they are just people. You know, people fumbling around, making mistakes, accidentally pissing other people off. We all stumbled our way here I think, no one started editing perfectly or never said a wrong thing or made a faux-pas - I made 4 today. Yes, some people handle criticism better than others, but I can tell your from witnessing it first-hand that being singled out by ~100 strangers is an emotionally taxing experience. Or maybe the gender gap discussions have sensitized me too much :P and I'm being biased. Lastly, I'll ask again, what was the expectation here? Yes, I took some time out between clubbing baby seals, and kicking blind people, to take away flags I don't understand, from strangers I don't know. You know, because I'm evil like that - nothing short of that would have gratified the current quest. There are two possible reasons, either someone else on staff asked or Ms. Young wasn't provided all the facts and didn't realize the implications. Both involve implicating another staff member, the course she took seems evident that it's not the road she wants to go down. While I don't agree, given her position, I can empathize. [Note that I'm speaking generally -- I personally think Gayle can handle criticism and she seems very nice. She also probably had no idea this would create dramz. My comment is directed towards the general omg think of the staff member! response to criticism that is systemic in our movement.] You've actually read my mail on those other lists, do you really think I'm the one to say omg think of the staff member! ? I recall arguing the opposite on at least 3 very visible occasions. On the other hand, I had deja vu reading Philippe's email. Between the two, I think Gayle is far more pensive than Philippe's appears to be. It's almost combative. He agrees that he advised her wrong, and then spends the latter half chastising the tone on IRC and emails, and ends with a familiar sign-off. I vehemently believe he had more to do with this than just being the trigger-man. Considering how long he's known Mz, the amount of interactions they've had, even the times Mz has helped Philippe. He knew the reaction, perhaps why this was done first without warning in this way. I would point out seven years ago the WMF was paralyzed from lack of strategy and direction - and say I can really make an argument that it's actually the other way round. The strategy then was to grow. Now it's running in every direction and switching mid-stream - you can start from global development, to the education program and find a lot in between. -Theo Just as a side comment, I laughed a bit when I read that seven years ago, WMF was paralyzed. Eck... early 2006, Wikimedia Foundation was hardly more than two years old. I would have many words to paint these days, some black, some white and many greys. But paralyzed would
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
You realise that this is going to continue until an actual explanation of the desysopping comes out? Some of us are waiting for the reasons before posting opinions. The weekend is now over and maybe now some reasons can emerge. Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: James Alexander jameso...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 7:50 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least) * I'm just going to top post here because responding to you in line won't be helpful to anybody.The staff ARE held to a higher standard, they are held to a higher standard day in and day out. If you don't think they are then you're blind. They get attacked at a level that is NOTHING compared to what they do or dish out NOTHING. They hold back because they're staff and they should hold back. Can the foundation get better? Of course it can, is every single thing Philippe said still true? Yes, in fact I'd probably be harsher about it. I'm sometimes embarrassed to be from the community when I read the mailing list and, less often, on wiki. Even I have to sit down on my hands, calm down, have a cup of tea and then go on damage control explaining to other staff members that we need to get better but that the community isn't nearly as bad as it seems sometimes. I have to remind myself that I'm not lying when I tell them that it isn't the entire community yelling at them, just a dozen or two on a mailing list and that they don't represent everyone. There is no doubt that the Foundation can get better in many areas, but I will 100% stand by my statement that the way that some portions of the community (that tend to congregate on the mailing lists and certain areas on wiki) is embarrassing and insane. Given some of the statements that are made I'm not actually sure staff SHOULD respond to those people, yet they still do in the end because they're staff, and they're held to a higher standard. Is it true that some of this is 'the wiki way' and they should 'get used to it' because 'that's how we treat ourselves'? I'd say that 99%+ of the wiki isn't anywhere near as bad though I sadly admit that some of it is though most realize that's bad. The lack of civility on wiki has been a long running problem we have all known about, yet for some reason some people have decided that targeting the staff is fair game. In the US, and most countries I know, employers have a legal obligation to ensure a healthy working environment both physical and emotional. The working environment for our staff is NOT always emotionally healthy. * * * *James* * On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Casey Brown li...@caseybrown.org wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Try and be a bit nicer please. Gayle is still relatively new and this level of scrutiny might be jarring for someone. Comments like these have always bothered me. Gayle isn't some random secretary or new run-of-the-mill employee. She is a C-level staff member who has been here for more than a year and made a policy decision that people have feedback on. While the feedback may not have come in the nicest form, it is still valid and we can't just ignore it because it wasn't nice enough. As a high level staff member in charge of your own department, you need to deal with it -- this is one thing that comes with the job, unfortunately. It's an insult to Gayle to assume that she will not be able to handle criticism or answer people's responses. A C-level staff member needs to be able to handle this scrutiny, even high level scrutiny, when they were the one that made the call, and I'm sure she's more than capable of doing that. [Note that I'm speaking generally -- I personally think Gayle can handle criticism and she seems very nice. She also probably had no idea this would create dramz. My comment is directed towards the general omg think of the staff member! response to criticism that is systemic in our movement.] On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Philippe Beaudette phili...@wikimedia.org wrote: With that said: I'm afraid we're headed toward a precipice. What I'm seeing scares me. I see less and less good faith being offered toward the WMF. This is something that bothers me too. The situation is always framed as poor WMF. Yes, it is true that bad faith is assumed on both sides, but I don't really think the community (including the chapters) is the only one doing that. A lot of the reason the community responds with such little faith or with such outrage at the actions of the Wikimedia Foundation is because they do not afford them any good faith either -- the community is simply acting on the defensive. Many decisions are just handed out, are half-baked, or are handled behind closed doors, so people have no idea how to respond and feel no ownership. If people have no control over a situation, the only way to respond is to point fingers and complain. We
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 13 May 2013 08:18, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:03 AM, James Alexander jameso...@gmail.comwrote: That's a bit relative, James. The active folk on this mailing list make for a pretty good cross section of thoughts/feelings/opinions of the movement. I've refrained from this discussion and will continue to do so on specifics, because it's politics and that's not something I do on Wikipedia/Wikimedia. On this, I have watched this thread with interest. I started following it when sitting in a chapter board meeting all day on Saturday. From the outset I knew I would not want to make any specific comment and get sucked into another dramah, I have too big a pile of these already anyway. There are lessons to be learned here. I continue to hope that the WMF can find a way of learning from these experiences, particularly if they set a long term pattern, in addition to answering the specific questions about this incident. For me, I certainly have learned that for the other organizations I am involved with that control wikis and have the wonderful luxury of working through the good will of unpaid volunteer admins and bureaucrats, the policies that apply should only change with careful and recorded consultation, even if I am personally sure that there are very clear legal or excellent good and important or urgent governance reasons to make changes. For those on Monday morning finding a little egg left on their faces, perhaps it is time to brew some freshly ground coffee, make some hot buttered toast and turn this into a productive breakfast? Stay mellow. ;-) PS I'm not attempting to claim any high ground here, so before anyone points it out, yes I'm pretty darn flawed myself. Sometimes I do learn from mistakes though, I have a lifetime of foolishness to regret and learn from. Cheers, Fae -- fae...@gmail.com http://j.mp/faewm Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
That was actually my point. Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: James Alexander jameso...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least) On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 12:00 AM, Peter Southwood peter.southw...@telkomsa.net wrote: Lets get a few things in perspective: 1. How many community members were abusive/unreasonable/whatever beyond what might be considered a startle reaction to an apparent attack without warning? 2 How many people constitute this community Divide answer 1 by answer 2 Consider how much of the response was a snowball effect of frustration due to a distinct shortage of explanation and direct answers to what might be considered reasonable questions. And yes, Welcome to Wikipedia Cheers, Peter 2 is an unreasonable number to divide by when it's such a small cross section of the actual community on these lists. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Upon reading Gayle's response, and reflecting on some of the comments I made on Saturday night, I have come to the conclusion that some of the things I said may have come across as a little harsh and condescending. While that was my intention (my point was that sometimes the community can bite, so you have to watch your fingers while interacting with them!), I think that what I said could quite easily have come across as patronising. This wasn't my intent, but I sincerely and unreservedly apologise to Gayle if this was how it was taken and if my words caused anyone any distress. Later, after I have dinner, I'm going to respond with a post to analyse what went wrong and offer some positive suggestions to how I think these situations can be avoided in the future, but the positive suggestion I am going to take for myself at this point is Florence's excellent advice to step back and let people explain themselves *before* I jump down their throat. Cheers, Craig On 13 May 2013 18:02, Fae fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 May 2013 08:18, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:03 AM, James Alexander jameso...@gmail.com wrote: That's a bit relative, James. The active folk on this mailing list make for a pretty good cross section of thoughts/feelings/opinions of the movement. I've refrained from this discussion and will continue to do so on specifics, because it's politics and that's not something I do on Wikipedia/Wikimedia. On this, I have watched this thread with interest. I started following it when sitting in a chapter board meeting all day on Saturday. From the outset I knew I would not want to make any specific comment and get sucked into another dramah, I have too big a pile of these already anyway. There are lessons to be learned here. I continue to hope that the WMF can find a way of learning from these experiences, particularly if they set a long term pattern, in addition to answering the specific questions about this incident. For me, I certainly have learned that for the other organizations I am involved with that control wikis and have the wonderful luxury of working through the good will of unpaid volunteer admins and bureaucrats, the policies that apply should only change with careful and recorded consultation, even if I am personally sure that there are very clear legal or excellent good and important or urgent governance reasons to make changes. For those on Monday morning finding a little egg left on their faces, perhaps it is time to brew some freshly ground coffee, make some hot buttered toast and turn this into a productive breakfast? Stay mellow. ;-) PS I'm not attempting to claim any high ground here, so before anyone points it out, yes I'm pretty darn flawed myself. Sometimes I do learn from mistakes though, I have a lifetime of foolishness to regret and learn from. Cheers, Fae -- fae...@gmail.com http://j.mp/faewm Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/mfae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 5/13/13 9:27 AM, Heather Ford wrote: On May 13, 2013, at 6:57 AM, phoebe ayers wrote: You know, it's kind of the ultimate Wikimedian tempest: arguing over who gets to add users and delete pages on what is quite possibly the world's most boring wiki[1]... I would take a stab and stay that it's not about who gets access but about how people are treated. Sending a mass email to a bunch of people saying that they no longer have admin access is pretty much like firing them by mass email with no warning - but it's probably a bit worse than that since the people who do this work do it because they love Wikipedia and because they care about it, and it's a slap in the face to be given the pink slip like this. And it is also rightfully worrying because it isn't the first time it's happened. I know this because a few years ago, while perusing the WMF wiki, I noticed that my name had moved from current to past advisory board members. Shocked, I emailed around to find out what had happened. Apparently I'd been fired and thanked for my service (another mass email that had apparently gone to my iCommons email address and which I no longer had access to) but to this day I have never received any advice on why I was removed, despite asking for clarification in person and via email on a few occasions. I don't like to whine and complain [1] and I thought that it was just me, but it made me sad and upset because I felt like I'd done a lot for Wikimedia, was one of the few advisory board members who showed up to meetings and tried to get things done, and to be discarded like that was really upsetting. This is what this is about. It's about people engaging with one another on a personal, human level and understanding what it means to be a part of this thing, this crazy wonderful thing. Maybe it also takes some deeper engagement in editing these things to understand the implications of what seems to be just a technical thing like removing rights, placing in different categories but is heavily political, heavily personal. And so I'd offer different advice from taking a walk or eating an ice cream or writing more mass emails to this list. I'd suggest that the people concerned to write personal emails to the *individuals* who were affected by this and to engage in a conversation among individuals about why this happened and how they're going to make it better together. At iCommons, when I was on the receiving end of similar anger, I had a mantra that I tried to stick to. When someone sends something that is upsetting, get on the phone with them. Sort it out one-on-one. This, for me, passionately for me, is what's needed here. Best, Heather [1] here I am whining and complaining but hopefully it is to make a point at least. Heather Ford Oxford Internet Institute Doctoral Programme www.ethnographymatters.nethttp://www.ethnographymatters.net @hfordsa on Twitter http://hblog.org And for the record, here are the minutes of the discussion which ultimately resulted in the removal of several advisory board members. http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/November_13-15,_2009#Advisory_Board_Update I sympathize Heather. Regarding your proposition... I believe it is a good one. This said... attempts to implement it may reveal really hard for the person looking for a phone discussion. Calling anyone at San Francisco is a real challenge as everything is done to discourage people to call the office (I understand why :)). I tried too many times to have good memory of that experience... (answering machine... talking to me in English... asking me unknown extension numbers... pouah) Florence ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Philippe Beaudette, 13/05/2013 11:21: I actually was, Florence :-) Let's see... https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=prevoldid=55625971 First (registered user, non deleted) edit 28 May... so not 7 years yet? ;-) And of course answering on day counts is a very constructive way to address Florence's points, congrats. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On May 13, 2013, at 9:10 AM, Florence Devouard wrote: On 5/13/13 9:27 AM, Heather Ford wrote: On May 13, 2013, at 6:57 AM, phoebe ayers wrote: You know, it's kind of the ultimate Wikimedian tempest: arguing over who gets to add users and delete pages on what is quite possibly the world's most boring wiki[1]... I would take a stab and stay that it's not about who gets access but about how people are treated. Sending a mass email to a bunch of people saying that they no longer have admin access is pretty much like firing them by mass email with no warning - but it's probably a bit worse than that since the people who do this work do it because they love Wikipedia and because they care about it, and it's a slap in the face to be given the pink slip like this. And it is also rightfully worrying because it isn't the first time it's happened. I know this because a few years ago, while perusing the WMF wiki, I noticed that my name had moved from current to past advisory board members. Shocked, I emailed around to find out what had happened. Apparently I'd been fired and thanked for my service (another mass email that had apparently gone to my iCommons email address and which I no longer had access to) but to this day I have never received any advice on why I was removed, despite asking for clarification in person and via email on a few occasions. I don't like to whine and complain [1] and I thought that it was just me, but it made me sad and upset because I felt like I'd done a lot for Wikimedia, was one of the few advisory board members who showed up to meetings and tried to get things done, and to be discarded like that was really upsetting. This is what this is about. It's about people engaging with one another on a personal, human level and understanding what it means to be a part of this thing, this crazy wonderful thing. Maybe it also takes some deeper engagement in editing these things to understand the implications of what seems to be just a technical thing like removing rights, placing in different categories but is heavily political, heavily personal. And so I'd offer different advice from taking a walk or eating an ice cream or writing more mass emails to this list. I'd suggest that the people concerned to write personal emails to the *individuals* who were affected by this and to engage in a conversation among individuals about why this happened and how they're going to make it better together. At iCommons, when I was on the receiving end of similar anger, I had a mantra that I tried to stick to. When someone sends something that is upsetting, get on the phone with them. Sort it out one-on-one. This, for me, passionately for me, is what's needed here. Best, Heather [1] here I am whining and complaining but hopefully it is to make a point at least. Heather Ford Oxford Internet Institute Doctoral Programme www.ethnographymatters.nethttp://www.ethnographymatters.net @hfordsa on Twitter http://hblog.org And for the record, here are the minutes of the discussion which ultimately resulted in the removal of several advisory board members. http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/November_13-15,_2009#Advisory_Board_Update I sympathize Heather. Regarding your proposition... I believe it is a good one. This said... attempts to implement it may reveal really hard for the person looking for a phone discussion. Calling anyone at San Francisco is a real challenge as everything is done to discourage people to call the office (I understand why :)). Ah, I meant it more as people in the San Francisco office calling (or at least attempting to call) volunteers :) A personal email would be a good second best, though :) Sending apologies to the whole list: certainly. But sending apologies to real individuals affected by this requires personal emails - and not just the ones where you copy and paste! I tried too many times to have good memory of that experience... (answering machine... talking to me in English... asking me unknown extension numbers... pouah) Florence ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orgmailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Previous account, Nemo. :) — Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc On May 13, 2013, at 3:01 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Philippe Beaudette, 13/05/2013 11:21: I actually was, Florence :-) Let's see... https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=prevoldid=55625971 First (registered user, non deleted) edit 28 May... so not 7 years yet? ;-) And of course answering on day counts is a very constructive way to address Florence's points, congrats. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
omg, he just admitted sockpupetting !!! On 5/13/13 12:35 PM, Philippe Beaudette wrote: Previous account, Nemo. :) — Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc On May 13, 2013, at 3:01 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Philippe Beaudette, 13/05/2013 11:21: I actually was, Florence :-) Let's see... https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=prevoldid=55625971 First (registered user, non deleted) edit 28 May... so not 7 years yet? ;-) And of course answering on day counts is a very constructive way to address Florence's points, congrats. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
This isn't a comment aimed at anyone in particular, so I'm not going to quote anybody, but can we please stop hijacking this thread, and posting about how Wikimedia Foundation staff are also humans and how the WMF was badly organised X years ago — which are valid discussion for a different time — and get back to the bottom of the topic? Here are some questions that I asked, and which haven't been covered at all: 1) Who made the decision to remove adminship from all community members? 2) Why did you make this decision now? What changed? 3) Who precisely (what department) is responsible for the maintenance of the wiki, and why didn't they perform their roles before? And a question that I think someone else asked: 1) For how long has the decision of removing adminship from those community members been discussed behind the closed door of the WMF, and who participated in that discussion? I think that having those questions answered will bring much more value than focusing on things that have been discussed over and over in the past. (Also, I think that FT2's idea of working together on creating guidelines and best practices for moving forward proposals — both technical and community-related — is worth looking at.) -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 13.05.2013 14:07, Tomasz W. Kozlowski wrote: This isn't a comment aimed at anyone in particular, so I'm not going to quote anybody, but can we please stop hijacking this thread, and posting about how Wikimedia Foundation staff are also humans and how the WMF was badly organised X years ago — which are valid discussion for a different time — and get back to the bottom of the topic? Here are some questions that I asked, and which haven't been covered at all: 1) Who made the decision to remove adminship from all community members? 2) Why did you make this decision now? What changed? 3) Who precisely (what department) is responsible for the maintenance of the wiki, and why didn't they perform their roles before? And a question that I think someone else asked: 1) For how long has the decision of removing adminship from those community members been discussed behind the closed door of the WMF, and who participated in that discussion? If I read the e-mails correctly, 1 and 2 were covered. 1 is Gayle, and 2 is that it was on her to do list for a long time, so apparently she decided to perform this on Friday afternoon since it was not pleasant and had to be done anyway. I am not sure though pursuing these questions is very much constructive. I personally would be more interested in 5) what measures are to be taken to exclude this in the future, and 6) how can we continue assuming good faith and be nice to each other. FT2 tried to relegate these questions to a separate thread, but so far unfortunately without much follow-up. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Wading into the water here. I hope we can separate the blog issue out a bit from the Foundation wiki issue, at least in terms of the user rights part. I was the one who changed a whole slew of user rights from Editor to Contributor, which in our WordPress setup limits some of their abilities, like approving comments, uploading files and editing posts written by other people, among others. I was cleaning up old emails from previous WMF Communications interns/volunteers, staff members and others I hadn't seen active in the two years I've been here. It was easy to see who was former staff (@wikimedia.org emails), but not as much with volunteers who had been given access in the past (and there were a number of them with zero activity in years). I should have been more careful and I'm happy to reinstate Editor rights for anyone else I inadvertently moved (and upset). I'm sorry Casey and Alex for the confusion. I've moved your accounts back to the Editor rights category. If I bungled anyone else's permissions, please let me know. thanks, Matthew On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:43 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ruwrote: On 13.05.2013 14:07, Tomasz W. Kozlowski wrote: This isn't a comment aimed at anyone in particular, so I'm not going to quote anybody, but can we please stop hijacking this thread, and posting about how Wikimedia Foundation staff are also humans and how the WMF was badly organised X years ago — which are valid discussion for a different time — and get back to the bottom of the topic? Here are some questions that I asked, and which haven't been covered at all: 1) Who made the decision to remove adminship from all community members? 2) Why did you make this decision now? What changed? 3) Who precisely (what department) is responsible for the maintenance of the wiki, and why didn't they perform their roles before? And a question that I think someone else asked: 1) For how long has the decision of removing adminship from those community members been discussed behind the closed door of the WMF, and who participated in that discussion? If I read the e-mails correctly, 1 and 2 were covered. 1 is Gayle, and 2 is that it was on her to do list for a long time, so apparently she decided to perform this on Friday afternoon since it was not pleasant and had to be done anyway. I am not sure though pursuing these questions is very much constructive. I personally would be more interested in 5) what measures are to be taken to exclude this in the future, and 6) how can we continue assuming good faith and be nice to each other. FT2 tried to relegate these questions to a separate thread, but so far unfortunately without much follow-up. Cheers Yaroslav __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Matthew Roth Global Communications Manager Wikimedia Foundation +1.415.839.6885 ext 6635 www.wikimediafoundation.org *http://blog.wikimedia.org/* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Philippe, Thank you for a thoughtful reply. I have especially taken seriously your advice to moderate the tone, something I have been guilty of in the past. We expect editors to treat one another respectfully even when they disagree, and I think staff should receive the same courtesy. That aside, I do indeed disagree. Communication is not the problem. Yes, it was a problem here, but it was not -the- problem. This started for me with ACTRIAL. The community came to an unprecedented consensus for a major change, and asked WMF to implement. WMF said no. The community looked at the new new-message system and clearly said Do not want! Roll it back! WMF said no. I see a precipice too. But that precipice is with WMF attempting to rule, rather than serve, the communities they lead. Just like project admins are expected to use their technical authority to uphold and implement community consensus, never to overrule or subvert it, so should we expect the same of WMF. We know how to run our projects better than you do. After ACTRIAL, we heard the same thing-We communicated poorly. Much of the frustration you see, and certainly my own, is the I didn't hear that aspect. When you overrule the community, it is a slap in the face. You are telling the volunteers who took the time to develop and gain consensus for their proposal that they both wasted their time and do not know what they are doing. What we are saying is not Give us a little better notice when you plan to slap our face or Please explain a little better why you slapped my face. It is, instead, Please stop slapping my face. Once again, you are being told You are standing on my toes. Perhaps it was inadvertent, but it hurts. Please move. What I would like to be clear on is that when you hear that with one voice from the community, it requires not an apology or explanation, but a reversal. That didn't happen in the two scenarios I mentioned, and it hasn't in several others. Yes, that created bitterness and mistrust, disillusionment and many to leave altogether. To ask a serious question, not intended to be sarcastic or rhetorical, did you foresee some other outcome from such absolute overrules? I hope I've spoken clearly and without undue bitterness, but I feel this point must be made clearly. Communication isn't the root problem. Heavy handedness is. I suppose you could say the problem is in listening. The community is, in many cases, coming to a strong consensus on what it does and does not want. The WMF is ignoring that and doing something else. You won't stop that from being a problem by communicating better or sooner. At the end of the day, we need you to stop doing that. Here, you've been told We disapprove of this action. Do we talk around it and leave more resentment to linger? Or do you listen and reverse it? Thanks if you took the time to read all this. I see a precipice, too. Let's all step back. Regards, Todd Allen On May 12, 2013 7:04 PM, Philippe Beaudette phili...@wikimedia.org wrote: So, I took Florence's excellent advice and went for a walk (beautiful day in SF, by the way - absolutely perfect). And I reflected on what I've seen since flipping the switch on things last Friday. Here's where I stand, and I haven't discussed this with anyone else at WMF, including Gayle. At the expense of sounding trite, I think I can safely say Mistakes were made. Gayle was trying to solve a real problem, and she got a lot of advice on how to do that. But the principle role of a staff member in a role such as mine is to advise, I think, and I'm afraid that I didn't offer good advice in this case. I don't think I gave bad advice - rather, I didn't give as good of advice as I could have. What our leadership should be able to expect from staff is that we look at things from a different perspective, and I think I failed to get as far out of my own head and into other peoples' to offer that varying perspective. So when I say that mistakes were made, I include my role in that, through commission or omission, and I sincerely apologize for that. With that said: I'm afraid we're headed toward a precipice. What I'm seeing scares me. I see less and less good faith being offered toward the WMF. One of the arguments that doesn't work for me is seven years ago the WMF didn't make these mistakes - because seven years ago the WMF was paralyzed from lack of strategy and direction. All of that has changed and the WMF is out and aggressively trying things to arrest the editor decline and improve the user experience. And yet, when our talented engineers try a data-driven tactic for something that needs to change, they're lambasted for forgetting the existing community. And yet everyone here knows that if we don't change some things, things will get very very ugly, very very quickly. One of the things that must continue to change is the tone on the wikis, and the tone (in IRC and by email) between staff and volunteers. I
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
hi Florence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry sockpuppeting is using more than one account in the same time. There are legitimate situations when users have a new account set up (e.g. after forgetting a password). Also, some users have multiple accounts for privacy reasons. Finally, we also have a clean start policy, which is not considered improper. Regarding the whole crisis now, and in particular in relation to wiki (not blog) I believe that two things need to be separated: the decision to get rid of community admins from wiki, and the way it was enforced. I think I'm quite neutral to the decision itself. If it is a WMF wiki, and if indeed there were some problems with staff being overridden by volunteers, I think it may perhaps make some sense to leave it to WMF. However, the way this change was introduced was definitely poorly planned, badly communicated (and not announced ahead of time), occasionally harsh, quite insensitive. Also, clearly, some discussion ahead of time would be good - both to let people know, but also to let the community think about addressing the problems related to it, too. I believe that especially Gayle, but also Philippe, have expressed their sincere apologies for the way things turned out, and for their unthoughtfulness prior to going through with the plan. Gayle also promised to reflect more on the issue once she gets back to the office. I think that this is quite a good way to deal with the problem. best, Dariusz (pundit) On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.comwrote: omg, he just admitted sockpupetting !!! On 5/13/13 12:35 PM, Philippe Beaudette wrote: Previous account, Nemo. :) -- Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc On May 13, 2013, at 3:01 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Philippe Beaudette, 13/05/2013 11:21: I actually was, Florence :-) Let's see... https://en.wikipedia.org/?**diff=prevoldid=55625971https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=prevoldid=55625971 First (registered user, non deleted) edit 28 May... so not 7 years yet? ;-) And of course answering on day counts is a very constructive way to address Florence's points, congrats. Nemo __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- __ dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak profesor zarządzania kierownik katedry Zarządzania Międzynarodowego i centrum badawczego CROW Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego http://www.crow.alk.edu.pl ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak dar...@alk.edu.plwrote: hi Florence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry sockpuppeting is using more than one account in the same time. There are legitimate situations when users have a new account set up (e.g. after forgetting a password). Also, some users have multiple accounts for privacy reasons. Finally, we also have a clean start policy, which is not considered improper. facepalm Do you know anything about Florence? BTW Aren't you the FDC chair? -Theo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 13 May 2013 18:01, Oliver Keyes oke...@wikimedia.org wrote: .You bring up Echo; yes, we didn't bring the Orange Bar back. But we spent a lot of cycles coming up with alternatives, running them past people, with many editors and many staffers actively engaged in the process. We had designers, developers, product managers participating in the discussion, And still you miss (if not ignore) the point; you removed something which was useful; consensus - supported by justifications and experience - was that it should be restored, and you ignored that consensus. You consulted on options including that restoration; and when it it was supported, you disregarded it out-of-hand. You (collectively) made unsupportable assertions and accusations, and resorted to snide comments when called on them. and in the end we came up with something that everyone, well, begrudgingly tolerates. And that's just downright false. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Basically, you (in the plural) thought you could do better than the consensus, and therefore simply without rejecting it , did not implement it while you tried other things first. All these trials would have been good, ''had they been done before implementation.'' I am waiting for someone from the foundation to come out and agree to that, a recognition that the error was that they needed to be done first. I am then waiting for a statement that all future changes of this sort will be broadly announced and trialed first, And I'm further waiting for a statement that the actual implementation will depend on the consensus. Frankly, if these are not forthcoming, the community needs to consider what it can do to retain control over the interface. While some individuals at the WMF may have greater individual expertise at some of the things involved, they collectively do not have better judgment than the editing community about what makes a good editing interface. They may have the power to override it, but they do not have the right to do so. If they think they ought to have the right, let them justify it. Probably the first step is to insist on its consensus on this feature. I wouldn't want to make an example of this otherwise, but unless we have an acknowledgement that we will have the right to decide in the future, the time to assert our right to decide is now. The WMF presumably thinks it can out-wait us, and needs to learn otherwise. I'm not eager to do this: I've heard some ideas, and I hope we do not need them. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.ukwrote: On 13 May 2013 18:01, Oliver Keyes oke...@wikimedia.org wrote: .You bring up Echo; yes, we didn't bring the Orange Bar back. But we spent a lot of cycles coming up with alternatives, running them past people, with many editors and many staffers actively engaged in the process. We had designers, developers, product managers participating in the discussion, And still you miss (if not ignore) the point; you removed something which was useful; consensus - supported by justifications and experience - was that it should be restored, and you ignored that consensus. You consulted on options including that restoration; and when it it was supported, you disregarded it out-of-hand. You (collectively) made unsupportable assertions and accusations, and resorted to snide comments when called on them. and in the end we came up with something that everyone, well, begrudgingly tolerates. And that's just downright false. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- David Goodman DGG at the enWP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Employees have a separate wiki specifically for employee things. The foundationwiki is different from that, serving as a forefront to the movement itself, something which we are all a part of - and that admin access should be reflecting people's specific type of association with the movement doesn't seem to be a decided fact. On 13/05/13 07:59, Jane Darnell wrote: I can sympathize with the issue, namely, that it would be nice if only Foundation employees could be allowed admin access on their own wiki. I recall a similar issue (which was not so widely blown up) for our WMNL board wiki in the Netherlands (and yes Phoebe, that is a very boring wiki). I find it interesting to read Gayle's reaction, but I don't think she should have apologized. The way the community interacts with newbies is unforgiveable, period. This is a perfect example of the reason that many women will go away after their first few edits, or they grow some sort of special magic Wikipedia filter. Even if she was just the messenger and it was Philippe's idea, as far as the reactions to Gayle go, I agree with Philippe's it's often damn hard to wade into these waters..., but I would rather conclude with Staff members are Wikipedians too. And don't get me started on the concept of higher standards!! 2013/5/13, phoebe ayers phoebe.w...@gmail.com: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote: Casey Brown, 13/05/2013 07:05: [...] [Note that I'm speaking generally -- I personally think Gayle can handle criticism and she seems very nice. She also probably had no idea this would create dramz. My comment is directed towards the general omg think of the staff member! response to criticism that is systemic in our movement.] Still, omg think of the staff member! seems to be the point Gayle and Philippe make on this thread. If history teaches something, I guess the board will soon approve a resolution to request the development of a Personal Communitymember Filter to AT LAST hide all that offensive content in our community. MediaWiki-mailman integration offers some challenges, but our commitment to openness will swiftly help, shutting down more mailing lists in favour of wiki discussions. Nemo Au contraire, I feel we should all earn some kind of barnstar just for participating in this discussion/situation. You know, it's kind of the ultimate Wikimedian tempest: arguing over who gets to add users and delete pages on what is quite possibly the world's most boring wiki[1]... It's also a quintessentially Wikimedian debate because there's all this subtext -- assumed but not articulated -- that isn't minor at all: about community ownership versus corporate control, about who has authority to make decisions in what sphere, about the role volunteers play in the organization, over what personal reputation means on the projects, over what admin rights mean, what kind of work environment the staff have, etc.. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here and guess that Gayle wasn't intending to start a debate on all these big important topics, or even perhaps to comment on them at all. I'm also gonna say from experience that it's often damn hard to wade into these waters and take an action *without* touching off a debate on all these subjects. As someone said upthread, the golden rule does help, as does practice working with the wiki way, and knowing all the personal ins and outs of Wikimedia and our arcane culture. But *even that* doesn't always save someone from making an unpopular decision, or from screwing up or not thinking through all the ways they might be wading into a minefield -- and that goes for all of us, staff, board, community alike. Hey, ask me how I know. Sheesh, being part of the world's biggest collaborative project is hard sometimes. -- phoebe 1. I exempt, of course, the internal wiki at my workplace, which has won the crown many years running. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- -— Isarra ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Theo, I know who Florence is and was, and quite honestly her suggestion that Philippe was sockpuppeting in my view only called for this short reminder. And if she joked, I'm sure she appreciated it, too. :) PS You forgot the /facepalm tag! dj On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:09 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak dar...@alk.edu.plwrote: hi Florence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry sockpuppeting is using more than one account in the same time. There are legitimate situations when users have a new account set up (e.g. after forgetting a password). Also, some users have multiple accounts for privacy reasons. Finally, we also have a clean start policy, which is not considered improper. facepalm Do you know anything about Florence? BTW Aren't you the FDC chair? -Theo -- __ dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak profesor zarządzania kierownik katedry Zarządzania Międzynarodowego i centrum badawczego CROW Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego http://www.crow.alk.edu.pl ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:56 AM, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: Basically, you (in the plural) thought you could do better than the consensus, and therefore simply without rejecting it , did not implement it while you tried other things first. All these trials would have been good, ''had they been done before implementation.'' I am waiting for someone from the foundation to come out and agree to that, a recognition that the error was that they needed to be done first. Hi David, I'm a little bit lost as to what you're referring to here, is this about the decision to not reinstate the orange notifications bar after the Echo rollout? If so, I already clarified [1] that I felt that we didn't do a good job recognizing the likely impact of this change earlier and addressing it more systematically upfront. We've since implemented a compromise, and work is continuing to iterate on this and other aspects of the new notifications system. In general, for features rollouts (and if we want to talk more about this, we should really split the thread), my recommendation is to adopt a beta-production mode switch similar to the mobile site, which will give us a generalized way to test new features with users who are willing to do so, while not committing us to provide an opt-out preference or mode switch for every new feature (which, while an easy way to appease upset users, is also a recipe for technical debt). Had Echo been available in beta on en.wp for a while before being activated, I think the rollout could have been a lot smoother. All best, Erik [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Notificationsdiff=prevoldid=553547662 -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: If I read the e-mails correctly, 1 and 2 were covered. 1 is Gayle, and 2 is that it was on her to do list for a long time, so apparently she decided to perform this on Friday afternoon since it was not pleasant and had to be done anyway. I'm not so sure about this, actually. Gayle clearly writes that they have been talking internally for a while, which suggests that more people have been involved in making this decision. Knowing whether this was just a decision taken between Gayle and Philippe, or whether more senior WMF staff members have been involved (Erik? Sue?) would definitely change the way I feel about it, and could also have other consequences. Also, the fact that this subject might have been on Gayle's to-do list for a while doesn't answer the second part of my question — the one about the changes which prompted such a sudden removal of rights from those volunteers. I am not sure though pursuing these questions is very much constructive. I personally would be more interested in 5) what measures are to be taken to exclude this in the future, and 6) how can we continue assuming good faith and be nice to each other. Seconded–having those questions answer would really help. I'll also try to follow up to FT2's proposal in a more constructive way — maybe by starting a page on Meta, I'll see what can be done. -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 5/13/13 6:39 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak wrote: hi Florence, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry sockpuppeting is using more than one account in the same time. There are legitimate situations when users have a new account set up (e.g. after forgetting a password). Also, some users have multiple accounts for privacy reasons. Finally, we also have a clean start policy, which is not considered improper. Eh. I know... I was joking Dariusz. As in ... trying to lighten the smoky atmosphere :) Because I disagree with Philippe on his current stance and I think his advice to Gayle was no good advice. But I love the guy 100% (or even more than 100% since I discovered he had a big boy...) so I can live with our disagreement anyway and forgive him for the bad move. Regarding the whole crisis now, and in particular in relation to wiki (not blog) I believe that two things need to be separated: the decision to get rid of community admins from wiki, and the way it was enforced. I think I'm quite neutral to the decision itself. If it is a WMF wiki, and if indeed there were some problems with staff being overridden by volunteers, I think it may perhaps make some sense to leave it to WMF. However, the way this change was introduced was definitely poorly planned, badly communicated (and not announced ahead of time), occasionally harsh, quite insensitive. Also, clearly, some discussion ahead of time would be good - both to let people know, but also to let the community think about addressing the problems related to it, too. I believe that especially Gayle, but also Philippe, have expressed their sincere apologies for the way things turned out, and for their unthoughtfulness prior to going through with the plan. Gayle also promised to reflect more on the issue once she gets back to the office. I think that this is quite a good way to deal with the problem. best, Exactly. Well put. Flo Dariusz (pundit) On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.comwrote: omg, he just admitted sockpupetting !!! On 5/13/13 12:35 PM, Philippe Beaudette wrote: Previous account, Nemo. :) -- Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc On May 13, 2013, at 3:01 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Philippe Beaudette, 13/05/2013 11:21: I actually was, Florence :-) Let's see... https://en.wikipedia.org/?**diff=prevoldid=55625971https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=prevoldid=55625971 First (registered user, non deleted) edit 28 May... so not 7 years yet? ;-) And of course answering on day counts is a very constructive way to address Florence's points, congrats. Nemo __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l __**_ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.**org Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-lhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
right; wrong thread. But yes,beta is good,as with the virtual editor. On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 10:56 AM, David Goodman dgge...@gmail.com wrote: Basically, you (in the plural) thought you could do better than the consensus, and therefore simply without rejecting it , did not implement it while you tried other things first. All these trials would have been good, ''had they been done before implementation.'' I am waiting for someone from the foundation to come out and agree to that, a recognition that the error was that they needed to be done first. Hi David, I'm a little bit lost as to what you're referring to here, is this about the decision to not reinstate the orange notifications bar after the Echo rollout? If so, I already clarified [1] that I felt that we didn't do a good job recognizing the likely impact of this change earlier and addressing it more systematically upfront. We've since implemented a compromise, and work is continuing to iterate on this and other aspects of the new notifications system. In general, for features rollouts (and if we want to talk more about this, we should really split the thread), my recommendation is to adopt a beta-production mode switch similar to the mobile site, which will give us a generalized way to test new features with users who are willing to do so, while not committing us to provide an opt-out preference or mode switch for every new feature (which, while an easy way to appease upset users, is also a recipe for technical debt). Had Echo been available in beta on en.wp for a while before being activated, I think the rollout could have been a lot smoother. All best, Erik [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Notificationsdiff=prevoldid=553547662 -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- David Goodman DGG at the enWP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Well, perhaps there was extensive consultation from Phillippe and Gayle if it had been planned over a long period of time and I just missed it. If that's the case, I'm sure that one of them will point it out for us first thing on Monday morning, at which point I'd have to start removing egg from my face ;-) Cheers, Craig On 12 May 2013 14:15, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: It's also worth noting this wasn't a last minute decision at all; its foreshadowed in a number of comments by Philippe going back to seemingly mid-March, and there may be warnings of it earlier. So the WMF staff have been discussing this change internally for at least 6 weeks or so. That's a long time to not think up a better plan for rolling it out. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 5/11/13 8:01 PM, Seb35 wrote: Thanks a lot for this explanation. On the other side, wikis not only need content producers (here WMF) but also curators (wikignomes) who are sorting the pages, deleting and moving pages, typocorrecting, templating things, helping new users in formatting texts, etc. (I read some of the Florence’s blogposts :) -- and not being admin restricts a lot the possible actions. Yeah ! :-) As a side note, Philippe has apparently restored my admin status (I did not ask any special favor) upon the reason that I am on the Advisory Board. But let me put it this way... I do not buy the argument offered by Sue that But, my understanding is also that occasionally volunteers have overridden decisions made by staff on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki. Sorry Sue... but this is a very poor argument. If there is a problem with ONE or TWO editors (was there at least two ?) then the way to go is to talk with this editor, not to remove all volunteer administrators who have been helping nicely for so many years. In the past, we used to talk about soft security as opposed to hard security. Hard security was about passwords, rights, filters, walls, blocking, deleting and such. Soft security was about conversations, peer reviews, reversions, recent changes, and other collaborative transparent processes. We have been going on for over 10 years primarily relying on soft security. And it did not work so badly in the end. Because for one bad person, and one confused, there were swarms of good people. Is not that sad that staff decided that soft security was no more the way to go, and that implementing hard security to prevent problems with ONE or TWO people was a better way than relying upon dozen of good people and spending a little bit of time discussing with the confused ? The decision made by staff make it appear that volunteers are more an inconvenience than a help. I can not blame a staff member to feel this way if he had to spent some time arguing with a volunteer whilst he had a mandate to do something specific and the volunteer was preventing it (whether a good or bad idea). It can be very annoying ;) However, I feel that management and board should have a slightly higher view on the matter and should realize how much they actually DO NEED the volunteers to BE happy and to FEEL useful and appreciated (See the recent discussion related to Wikimedia Hong Kong) and to reflect whether the long term outcome of the decision to remove admin rights to volunteers on the foundation wiki (and blog if I understood well) is a good idea or not. Alternatively, it might be good to really move as much as possible of the Wikimedia Foundation Wiki to meta (where at least, the community is in charge of who is admin and who is not). Flo PS: however, do note that it is a good idea to remove admin flags from users who quit the community entirely. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 5/12/13 8:13 PM, David Gerard wrote: On 12 May 2013 18:47, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.com wrote: Alternatively, it might be good to really move as much as possible of the Wikimedia Foundation Wiki to meta (where at least, the community is in charge of who is admin and who is not). This is a good idea anyway. Having the WMF wiki become a staff-controlled operation is not an outlandish or terrible idea - it's the official site of the nonprofit itself, after all. But this was not a good way to do it. That said, there are projects who do much worse. Here's GNOME's attempt to win the XFree86 Memorial Award for Community Management for 2013: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=698544 - d. :) Yeah, pretty bad. The main reason I would consider WMF wiki SHOULD NOT be an entirely staff-controlled and operated site is the fact we originally wanted it to be at least in part multilingual. Current staff does not seem to be very interested in that original wish. Some requests for translation are sometimes made but lot's of outdated content is still over there. Sometimes, it does not matter too much. Other times, it is quite unfortunate. Check out for example http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_policy Important ? yes Should be translated ? I would say yes, as much as possible Should old versions stick there ? I would say vehemently no, should not Still, many languages still display the old version. The staff will hide itself behind the fact that only the English version matters. Which is why Dutch is still the old version: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacybeleid Is that good ? No, I would say it is not serious. Who can help clean that up ? Well... if not the volunteers, then it would have to be the staff job. Except I doubt the staff would consider that to be part of its job. If only because staff does not speak 300 languages. What's the best way to motivate volunteers to help with translation and update of non-English content ? I am not sure, but probably not in removing their admin bit as if they were dangerous people. Right now, I would go as far as saying that WMF on the contrary should look out for more people to help clean up ;) How does that happen right now ? Well, volunteers do ask on meta to get an account for WMF wiki. Where ? Here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Request_for_an_account_on_the_Foundation_wiki And guess who is taking care of giving them access ? A volunteer who has the technical means to create them accounts. Oh wait... not any more. Ah, hum. Well, I take it a staff member will do that in the future :) --- Alternatively, the staff, with the official support of their management and the board can decide that the Foundation wiki should not try any more to be translated in other languages and should stick to what it actually is: a US-based non profit company. Translations may be non-official... and on meta. --- The multilingualism we hoped so dearly has always been an issue. It is poorly dealt with on the Wikimedia Foundation blog. Poorly dealt with on the Foundation Wiki. Poorly dealt with on OTRS. :( Florence ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 5/12/13 8:26 PM, Thehelpfulone wrote: On 12 May 2013 18:47, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.com wrote: Alternatively, it might be good to really move as much as possible of the Wikimedia Foundation Wiki to meta (where at least, the community is in charge of who is admin and who is not). Mostly in charge, there are a few exceptions where adminship has been granted by WMF staff for their work without going through any formal community procedures: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Administrators#Temporary_adminship_or_adminship_by_decree I do not see that as a really problematic issue. Unfortunate, but not really problematic. As long as the appointed admin behave within community rules and does good, there is only damage to our pride and disrespect to the rules. But ... results over rules. Result is what matters. Rules is only a way to get there. A serious problem would be * IF the staff was the one deciding who is admin generally * IF the staff was boldly removing admin access to volunteers Still, if you want to be a bit pointy, you should probably mention that it is unclear why https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Smazeland still needs to be an admin Flo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 12 May 2013 19:44, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.com wrote: :) Yeah, pretty bad. The main reason I would consider WMF wiki SHOULD NOT be an entirely staff-controlled and operated site is the fact we originally wanted it to be at least in part multilingual. Current staff does not seem to be very interested in that original wish. Some requests for translation are sometimes made but lot's of outdated content is still over there. Sometimes, it does not matter too much. Other times, it is quite unfortunate. Check out for example http://wikimediafoundation.**org/wiki/Privacy_policyhttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_policy Important ? yes Should be translated ? I would say yes, as much as possible Should old versions stick there ? I would say vehemently no, should not Still, many languages still display the old version. The staff will hide itself behind the fact that only the English version matters. Which is why Dutch is still the old version: http://wikimediafoundation.**org/wiki/Privacybeleidhttp://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacybeleid Is that good ? No, I would say it is not serious. Who can help clean that up ? Well... if not the volunteers, then it would have to be the staff job. Except I doubt the staff would consider that to be part of its job. If only because staff does not speak 300 languages. What's the best way to motivate volunteers to help with translation and update of non-English content ? I am not sure, but probably not in removing their admin bit as if they were dangerous people. Right now, I would go as far as saying that WMF on the contrary should look out for more people to help clean up ;) How does that happen right now ? Well, volunteers do ask on meta to get an account for WMF wiki. Where ? Here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/** wiki/Request_for_an_account_**on_the_Foundation_wikihttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Request_for_an_account_on_the_Foundation_wiki And guess who is taking care of giving them access ? A volunteer who has the technical means to create them accounts. Oh wait... not any more. Ah, hum. Well, I take it a staff member will do that in the future :) --- Alternatively, the staff, with the official support of their management and the board can decide that the Foundation wiki should not try any more to be translated in other languages and should stick to what it actually is: a US-based non profit company. Translations may be non-official... and on meta. --- The multilingualism we hoped so dearly has always been an issue. It is poorly dealt with on the Wikimedia Foundation blog. Poorly dealt with on the Foundation Wiki. Poorly dealt with on OTRS. :( For what it's worth, I did try to get some re-translation organised in early February: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF and asked communications staff at the WMF for their input. To be fair to them they did say that they'd look into it and get back to me but I think they might have been swamped with other things so it was forgotten. -- Thehelpfulone https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Thehelpfulone, 12/05/2013 20:58: For what it's worth, I did try to get some re-translation organised in early February: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests/WMF and asked communications staff at the WMF for their input. To be fair to them they did say that they'd look into it and get back to me but I think they might have been swamped with other things so it was forgotten. I don't think staff has ever touched translation on WMF wiki, it's always been done by the almighty heroes Cbrown1023, Aphaia, Az1568 with their gazillion edits and a few others. It's unfair to think they'd have something to say. Meta has the Translate extension, the translators and the community. At this point it's clear that foundationwiki is going to rot, we should just set up all the policies and important documents on Meta for translation and start the work again; we've been stuck for too many years now. Eventually, the links will go where the value is and nobody will care about the wasteland at foundationwiki. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 12.05.2013 20:44, Florence Devouard wrote: The multilingualism we hoped so dearly has always been an issue. It is poorly dealt with on the Wikimedia Foundation blog. Poorly dealt with on the Foundation Wiki. Poorly dealt with on OTRS. :( Florence If someone approaches me and asks to write a blog post about the Russian Wikivoyage (where I happen to be an admin) I could do it in two or three languages. (I certainly can survive if nobody does). On the other hand if I only write it in Russian - would it be such a good idea? From what I know, the number of Russian Wikimedians who read the blog on a regular basis is measured by a single digit. Cheers Yaroslav ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 5/12/13 9:28 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: On 12.05.2013 20:44, Florence Devouard wrote: The multilingualism we hoped so dearly has always been an issue. It is poorly dealt with on the Wikimedia Foundation blog. Poorly dealt with on the Foundation Wiki. Poorly dealt with on OTRS. :( Florence If someone approaches me and asks to write a blog post about the Russian Wikivoyage (where I happen to be an admin) I could do it in two or three languages. (I certainly can survive if nobody does). On the other hand if I only write it in Russian - would it be such a good idea? From what I know, the number of Russian Wikimedians who read the blog on a regular basis is measured by a single digit. Cheers Yaroslav Fortunately, we know that numbers is not always what matters ;) Flo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
That is correct. Because despite your attempts to turn me into the decision making authority here, I wasn't. You don't need to talk to the worker bee who executed, you want to talk to the person who made the decision. That's not me. And she is traveling. And also, you know, I'm working brutal hours right now and yeah, I wanted to try to not be posting this weekend. I had to deal with my mistake in not removing Phoebes rights at the same time and I had to deal with an elections thing. But was I anxious to come wading into a situation where - despite you clearly being told that I wasn't a decision maker - you continue to (for whatever reason) advance the asinine position that someone must be pulling gayles strings and therefore it must be me because I am evil? No, you know, MZ, I didn't come skipping gleefully to that conversation. Let me be clear: I respect the work that you do. But I have zero time for your distortions of the situation when you've been told that it wasn't my decision. You want an explanation? I'm sure that Gayle will offer one. But for the umpteenth time, I was the person pushing the button because someone had to be. So lets leave my motivations out of this okay? I'm spending hundreds of hours per month fighting to support the volunteer community here and your assignations to the contrary are insulting. PB — Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc On May 12, 2013, at 10:06 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Philippe has had time to go back and remove Phoebe's user rights and Philippe has had time to post to this mailing list about the upcoming Wikimedia elections, but he has chosen not to participate in this thread at all about his actions. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Philippe Beaudette wrote: You want an explanation? I'm sure that Gayle will offer one. But for the umpteenth time, I was the person pushing the button because someone had to be. Why did you feel compelled to act here when it wasn't your decision? Was there something preventing Gayle from doing this herself? It's pretty strange to involve yourself in this decision (that wasn't yours) and then turn around and say well why are you pointing at me?! You were raised in a wiki culture, just as I was, where an individual is responsible for the actions of his or her account. You obviously felt an obligation to act here. What remains unclear is why. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
MZMcBride, 12/05/2013 22:45: Why did you feel compelled to act here when it wasn't your decision? Was there something preventing Gayle from doing this herself? Be honest, if Gayle had done this herself you would have said that maybe she hadn't read the documentation on Special:UserRights carefully and it was a mistake. :) It's pretty strange to involve yourself in this decision (that wasn't yours) and then turn around and say well why are you pointing at me?! You were raised in a wiki culture, just as I was, where an individual is responsible for the actions of his or her account. You obviously felt an obligation to act here. What remains unclear is why. To me it's very clear, nobody wanted to take responsibility or blame for the decision(*) so they let someone who's going out of town take the blame, someone in another department press the button, and the top management cover everything with flimsy rhetoric. Next time they could do better, the act could be executed before a longer holiday or be spread across more departments (a third person to send the notification emails, or a deflag squad of 14 staffers as with fusillading). But no worries, the WMF is still a young org and is learning. Nemo (*) Which may have been discussed for several weeks, as Nathan pointed out. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 5/12/13 10:45 PM, MZMcBride wrote: Philippe Beaudette wrote: You want an explanation? I'm sure that Gayle will offer one. But for the umpteenth time, I was the person pushing the button because someone had to be. Why did you feel compelled to act here when it wasn't your decision? Was there something preventing Gayle from doing this herself? It's pretty strange to involve yourself in this decision (that wasn't yours) and then turn around and say well why are you pointing at me?! You were raised in a wiki culture, just as I was, where an individual is responsible for the actions of his or her account. You obviously felt an obligation to act here. What remains unclear is why. MZMcBride Why = contractual agreement with his employer. He may have been raised in the wiki culture, he has obligations as staff. Give Philippe a break MZMcBride. You are obviously unhappy and there are reasons for that; But giving Philippe the bad ride is not the way to go. Take a break, drink a tea, grab chocolate, watch a movie, have a walk. Anything. It is Sunday anyway. Flo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Thanks for clarifying this Phillippe. I must say that I think this discussion is becoming unpleasantly personal (and my initial email on the topic probably didn't help there, I concede). How about we stop pointing fingers at each other and conduct an honest and transparent appraisal of what has happened with a view to learning lessons from it so that it doesn't happen again. I also have to point out that while it's not ideal at all that this happened late on a Friday afternoon when everyone was leaving the office, nor is it reasonable to expect paid staff to snap to and respond on the weekends during their personal time. The damage has been done now, and it's not so urgent an issue that it can't wait until Monday for a response. Cheers, Craig On 13 May 2013 06:23, Philippe Beaudette pbeaude...@wikimedia.org wrote: That is correct. Because despite your attempts to turn me into the decision making authority here, I wasn't. You don't need to talk to the worker bee who executed, you want to talk to the person who made the decision. That's not me. And she is traveling. And also, you know, I'm working brutal hours right now and yeah, I wanted to try to not be posting this weekend. I had to deal with my mistake in not removing Phoebes rights at the same time and I had to deal with an elections thing. But was I anxious to come wading into a situation where - despite you clearly being told that I wasn't a decision maker - you continue to (for whatever reason) advance the asinine position that someone must be pulling gayles strings and therefore it must be me because I am evil? No, you know, MZ, I didn't come skipping gleefully to that conversation. Let me be clear: I respect the work that you do. But I have zero time for your distortions of the situation when you've been told that it wasn't my decision. You want an explanation? I'm sure that Gayle will offer one. But for the umpteenth time, I was the person pushing the button because someone had to be. So lets leave my motivations out of this okay? I'm spending hundreds of hours per month fighting to support the volunteer community here and your assignations to the contrary are insulting. PB — Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc On May 12, 2013, at 10:06 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Philippe has had time to go back and remove Phoebe's user rights and Philippe has had time to post to this mailing list about the upcoming Wikimedia elections, but he has chosen not to participate in this thread at all about his actions. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 05/12/2013 04:42 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: The most he could ask from you is a comment on how frequently you have to be the one pushing the button against the community. Again with this meme! Against the community. *NOBODY* works against the community. Sometimes, we do things that displease part, or most of the community. Sometimes, there are mistakes, flubbed judgment calls, and boneheaded gaffes. By accident, confusion or miscommunication, the community might have been harmed. Occasionally, even, someone acts like a human and does something in anger or stupidity that was clearly wrong in retrospect. But Against the community means seeing the community as an adversary, and acting to undermine or harm it. The very *attitude* necessary to say this is what causes those problems, trying to paint Us vs. Them on what should be collaboration. If you think Philippe - or through him Gayle - did what they did against the community, then you have already have abandoned any pretense of good faith towards the foundation and towards them personally. Unless you can back your assertions of malice, please take them elsewhere. /rant -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 12/05/13 02:48, Sue Gardner wrote: The staff working on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki have jobs they've got to get done, in support of the entire movement. If they spend days or weeks needing to persuade a single community member of the merits of something they want to do on the Foundation wiki, or if they need to modify their plans extensively to accommodate the opinions of a single community member, that reduces the amount of time available for them to do the rest of their work. Which, I repeat, is in the service of the movement overall. So it was a response to a particular conflict? My understanding is that the Wikimedia Foundation staff who work on the Foundation wiki have been grateful (and are grateful) for the help they've gotten from community members in maintaining the Foundation wiki, and that we hope they'll continue to help us. Let's hope so. But in my experience, stripping titles such as administrator from volunteers is an excellent way to get them to leave. It's not really about the technical privileges, these titles are a recognition of good work done, and a symbol of trust, and are one of the few rewards we give to volunteers. Stripping privileges from a volunteer is upsetting, and undermines their core motivation for contributing. So I can appreciate that the conflict needed to be resolved, but I have to wonder whether this was the best way to go about it. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Hello folks, So... I caught bits of this while I was on layover between plane flights, so I've had time to have the multiple reactions that one has (nothing like an 11-hour flight to think about a situation). I've had time to feel defensive, insulted, opened, humbled, curious, thoughtful, regretful, optimistic... This is an earnest “I'm sorry, I'll do better” and I don't perfectly know what that looks like yet, because I (and I suspect like you) go from day to day within in a complex life trying to do the best I can. I'll respond more later, as I've got some scheduled time a way and like all human beings I need it, but will circle back when I return to work next Monday. I was thinking that I would be a very different person if I never made mistakes. :) In fact, contemplation of that is rather funny if any of you know me or the circumstances of my life. I could have done the process differently. I DO sometimes forget we're all on the same side. That's a darned shame. I do it sometimes because part of my job is to deal with how beleaguered some members (not all – I'm trying to find my way back to nuance and ask you to too) because sometimes they ask me for help, because I deal every day with burnout and chaos and challenging interpersonal dynamics, and I see some of the downright abusive messages that no person (staff or admin or user or each and any one of you reading this) should be subject to while pursuing work they love. (I also get to see some of the grateful messages, the way we support one another, not just tear people down. That part is /awesome/.) I find our staff and volunteers that I've worked with remarkable - people who I'm ridiculously grateful to work with and for. And I have no doubt that some of you have experienced staff (myself included) in ways I'm blind to, and I think there's room for all of us to get better. But I wish people could see how, even though it's our job, it can be sometimes just exhausting to try to please so many different voices. Some of you may think that the Foundation doesn't think about the community – and I think we sometimes listen so much that it's a little crazy because, as has been explained to us, the community is not one voice, not one thing, not one person. It's a vast, beautiful, sometimes conflicted, sometimes coordinated people working on this enormous shared endeavor. So it's not that community is not worth listening to, but how and where and to what pieces, and how do we get better at it and how do we amplify the constructive voices and not let deconstructive voices (both within the Foundation and without) tear us down because this work is hard. All our work is hard. I do appreciate the volunteers who have stepped and kept things going when I was personally at capacity. When I read that I need to remember just who pays my salary, I think a whole bunch of things (and have the various reactions I have, where both assume good faith that someone means that and I also look at the possibility that it was meant to be insulting and provoking). And at the end of the day, millions of people do and hundreds of thousands of editors help make that happen. I don't forget that. I do think that I am called to this role because on my best days, it uses me well – it uses my skills and knowledge and abilities in ways that I hope are good for the world. I am not anyone's servant (except perhaps for this cause), and I am deeply listening. So sometimes I forget we're on the same side, and thank you for reminding me. Thank you for the temperate voices, the ones who present a point of view I hadn't considered. As you can likely imagine, I hear more that way. Most people do. Someone mentioned that it's easier to lay good ground than to fix something in retrospect, and that most certainly is very, very true. :) (I really dislike that other people had to answer for me while I was out of commission - and my own fault for doing something on my to-do list the Friday before leaving town. Totally get that.) So...listening, thinking... also tired, but optimistic, and I hope and want to keep doing better. This definitely feels like a bit of trial by fire. Warmest regards, Gayle -- Gayle Karen K. Young Chief Talent and Culture Officer Wikimedia Foundation 415.310.8416 www.wikimediafoundation.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Casey Brown li...@caseybrown.org wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:15 AM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, For what it's worth, this didn't get sent out to everyone. I was a bureaucrat and administrator, and have the most edits on that wiki (afaik?), and wasn't notified. Like Huib, I was also in the batch of blog moderator removals and wasn't notified about that either. I'm not very active anymore, so it's not really a huge deal, but it's still bad form to have not gotten any kind of notification at all. I'm going to have to agree with Casey on this. I also received absolutely zero notification or warning as a longtime bureaucrat and administrator that my rights were to be removed on WMF wiki or the foundation's blog. We should have been reached out to directly and have been informed of this decision. Even if there was little about it that we could change. Alex ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Gayle Karen Young wrote: Hello folks, [...] Gayle So what did you want to say? I haven't been able to find any answers to any questions that have been asked by so many people in this thread. -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 5:34 AM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: So what did you want to say? I haven't been able to find any answers to any questions that have been asked by so many people in this thread. Try and be a bit nicer please. Gayle is still relatively new and this level of scrutiny might be jarring for someone. I'm not sure what the expectation was here, it wasn't going to be a grand plan or a hidden explanation for this action. Sue and Erik gave their versions, so as far as explanations go, if Philippe said he was the button pusher, Gayle could have argued she was merely the one who authorized the button pushing. I kind of like that she didn't take that route. I don't think there's anywhere else to go from here. I suppose now it comes down to futile arguments over levels of culpability. At the most, there was malicious intent against Mz, where his removal alone was the eventual goal, and a policy had to be erected or modified to facilitate that. The rest might have been an amalgamation of inactive users and bystanders who got caught on either side of it. It's sad if it had to come down to that. Admins like THO and Mz, are godsend. At the very least, this was handled poorly. I don't think anyone including the executives would disagree with that one. Perhaps a courtesy note - a thank you, a warning, some time in between - would have made the world of a difference. Maybe the problem itself instead of the person could have been isolated, and talked out. I still have a sneaking suspicion that Gayle didn't realize what she was getting into. I also think that people reading this are missing a lot of the context and history here. Before the removal of his rights, Mz made ~2000 edits on that wiki this year. A lot of them are tedious edits which no one really does from the foundation's side. I think he's been working on his Manana list since 2009[1] for that wiki. For those that might not know him, even a cursory look at Mz's meta or en.wp talk page would reveal that his time is valued as it is in other places. It's filled with people asking for help with bots, db queries, Mediawiki, small hacks and what not, he can certainly do a heck of a lot more than an average technically-inept editor like me can. Mz also has his own charm, and for the people who know him, love him for it. A few staff members though, do seem immune to that exposure and do tend to lock horns occasionally. The two years that I have known Philippe and Mz (and strangely both were among the first people I interacted with), they have had more than a few contentious moments. Philippe might have a tendency to be a bit more prone to control (IMO). I have also seen him discuss issues about staff rights, and who has access where for a long while. It wouldn't be surprising to learn that this removal, and policy change was in the offing. Perhaps, the issue got exacerbated with Zack and Erik's concerns (something about HTML insertions?) about the fundraising infrastructure residing on WMF wiki, who knows. Regards Theo [1]http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Ma%C3%B1ana ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Gayle Karen Young gyo...@wikimedia.org wrote: This definitely feels like a bit of trial by fire. True dat. Now that you have received your initiation, there's nothing left to say but WELCOME TO WIKIPEDIA :) Cheers, Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
So, I took Florence's excellent advice and went for a walk (beautiful day in SF, by the way - absolutely perfect). And I reflected on what I've seen since flipping the switch on things last Friday. Here's where I stand, and I haven't discussed this with anyone else at WMF, including Gayle. At the expense of sounding trite, I think I can safely say Mistakes were made. Gayle was trying to solve a real problem, and she got a lot of advice on how to do that. But the principle role of a staff member in a role such as mine is to advise, I think, and I'm afraid that I didn't offer good advice in this case. I don't think I gave bad advice - rather, I didn't give as good of advice as I could have. What our leadership should be able to expect from staff is that we look at things from a different perspective, and I think I failed to get as far out of my own head and into other peoples' to offer that varying perspective. So when I say that mistakes were made, I include my role in that, through commission or omission, and I sincerely apologize for that. With that said: I'm afraid we're headed toward a precipice. What I'm seeing scares me. I see less and less good faith being offered toward the WMF. One of the arguments that doesn't work for me is seven years ago the WMF didn't make these mistakes - because seven years ago the WMF was paralyzed from lack of strategy and direction. All of that has changed and the WMF is out and aggressively trying things to arrest the editor decline and improve the user experience. And yet, when our talented engineers try a data-driven tactic for something that needs to change, they're lambasted for forgetting the existing community. And yet everyone here knows that if we don't change some things, things will get very very ugly, very very quickly. One of the things that must continue to change is the tone on the wikis, and the tone (in IRC and by email) between staff and volunteers. I know that volunteers are individual and - in addition to several frankly abusive emails I've received this weekend, I've also received absolutely wonderful support from volunteers who reached out to make me smile, laugh, or just remind me why I love this community. But the abusive ones absolutely *must*stop. I have never once, in my entire time at WMF, sent an email that approaches the level of things that I see WMF staff subjected to routinely, and I have to counsel over and over that it's okay, they don't speak for the community, but I see the community tacitly support that behavior (or fail to condemn it), and it's hard to say with a straight face that the people sending abusive mail or making abusive statements in IRC don't speak for the community. So my challenge and my promise: I promise to reflect on the experiences of this weekend and figure out how I could have offered Gayle better advice, given the circumstances, and given the fact that there are some things that are not public about the decision, and unfortunately they can't be. My challenge to the community: think about the tone of what you see happening around you. And if you wouldn't want to see your grandmother asked a question like that, and if it would make you feel defensive to see her questioned in that tone, then step in and make it clear that the tone is unacceptable. Staff members are people too. How about finding one that has done something you appreciate (come on, there must be ONE) and tell them so? You'd be shocked how much gratitude they'll feel, because you may be the first community member EVER to tell them that. Best, pb ___ Philippe Beaudette Director, Community Advocacy Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. 415-839-6885, x 6643 phili...@wikimedia.org On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Gayle Karen Young gyo...@wikimedia.org wrote: This definitely feels like a bit of trial by fire. True dat. Now that you have received your initiation, there's nothing left to say but WELCOME TO WIKIPEDIA :) Cheers, Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Hi Philippe, your message just reminds me a recent message I sent here and a general feeling about sometimes the wiki community only stressing the negative aspects and mistakes we all do (contractors, staff, volunteers etc.) * Highlight the positive aspects and multicultural comparisons http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-April/125361.html I must tell it can also be difficult for the community to realise the amount of work done by WMF professionals (and it is really difficult to share this), summed up with this environment of distrust makes the situation be like we are seeing here in this most recent wikidrama, that can be solved with some patience and, as you are doing here, messages after a little walk away from the computer no thursty to be the last voice. :) It is curious this agressive nature of the momevement seems also to happen in soem other local communities - at least is what I see at the Portuguese Wikipedia and some volunteers more involved with offline activities (no visual editor or similar initiatives will solve that ;). My best wishes for this particular case and I hope you and other colleagues will be treated with respect. I know how hard it is after working hard and beeing kicked in the ass all the time, sometimes by the very same people, who work hard as volunteers, but put themselves as gods because of that. (and hey, it is even harder when you also worked for years as a volunteer) Tom On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Philippe Beaudette phili...@wikimedia.org wrote: So, I took Florence's excellent advice and went for a walk (beautiful day in SF, by the way - absolutely perfect). And I reflected on what I've seen since flipping the switch on things last Friday. Here's where I stand, and I haven't discussed this with anyone else at WMF, including Gayle. At the expense of sounding trite, I think I can safely say Mistakes were made. Gayle was trying to solve a real problem, and she got a lot of advice on how to do that. But the principle role of a staff member in a role such as mine is to advise, I think, and I'm afraid that I didn't offer good advice in this case. I don't think I gave bad advice - rather, I didn't give as good of advice as I could have. What our leadership should be able to expect from staff is that we look at things from a different perspective, and I think I failed to get as far out of my own head and into other peoples' to offer that varying perspective. So when I say that mistakes were made, I include my role in that, through commission or omission, and I sincerely apologize for that. With that said: I'm afraid we're headed toward a precipice. What I'm seeing scares me. I see less and less good faith being offered toward the WMF. One of the arguments that doesn't work for me is seven years ago the WMF didn't make these mistakes - because seven years ago the WMF was paralyzed from lack of strategy and direction. All of that has changed and the WMF is out and aggressively trying things to arrest the editor decline and improve the user experience. And yet, when our talented engineers try a data-driven tactic for something that needs to change, they're lambasted for forgetting the existing community. And yet everyone here knows that if we don't change some things, things will get very very ugly, very very quickly. One of the things that must continue to change is the tone on the wikis, and the tone (in IRC and by email) between staff and volunteers. I know that volunteers are individual and - in addition to several frankly abusive emails I've received this weekend, I've also received absolutely wonderful support from volunteers who reached out to make me smile, laugh, or just remind me why I love this community. But the abusive ones absolutely *must*stop. I have never once, in my entire time at WMF, sent an email that approaches the level of things that I see WMF staff subjected to routinely, and I have to counsel over and over that it's okay, they don't speak for the community, but I see the community tacitly support that behavior (or fail to condemn it), and it's hard to say with a straight face that the people sending abusive mail or making abusive statements in IRC don't speak for the community. So my challenge and my promise: I promise to reflect on the experiences of this weekend and figure out how I could have offered Gayle better advice, given the circumstances, and given the fact that there are some things that are not public about the decision, and unfortunately they can't be. My challenge to the community: think about the tone of what you see happening around you. And if you wouldn't want to see your grandmother asked a question like that, and if it would make you feel defensive to see her questioned in that tone, then step in and make it clear that the tone is unacceptable. Staff members are people too. How about finding one that has done something you
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Try and be a bit nicer please. Gayle is still relatively new and this level of scrutiny might be jarring for someone. Comments like these have always bothered me. Gayle isn't some random secretary or new run-of-the-mill employee. She is a C-level staff member who has been here for more than a year and made a policy decision that people have feedback on. While the feedback may not have come in the nicest form, it is still valid and we can't just ignore it because it wasn't nice enough. As a high level staff member in charge of your own department, you need to deal with it -- this is one thing that comes with the job, unfortunately. It's an insult to Gayle to assume that she will not be able to handle criticism or answer people's responses. A C-level staff member needs to be able to handle this scrutiny, even high level scrutiny, when they were the one that made the call, and I'm sure she's more than capable of doing that. [Note that I'm speaking generally -- I personally think Gayle can handle criticism and she seems very nice. She also probably had no idea this would create dramz. My comment is directed towards the general omg think of the staff member! response to criticism that is systemic in our movement.] On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Philippe Beaudette phili...@wikimedia.org wrote: With that said: I'm afraid we're headed toward a precipice. What I'm seeing scares me. I see less and less good faith being offered toward the WMF. This is something that bothers me too. The situation is always framed as poor WMF. Yes, it is true that bad faith is assumed on both sides, but I don't really think the community (including the chapters) is the only one doing that. A lot of the reason the community responds with such little faith or with such outrage at the actions of the Wikimedia Foundation is because they do not afford them any good faith either -- the community is simply acting on the defensive. Many decisions are just handed out, are half-baked, or are handled behind closed doors, so people have no idea how to respond and feel no ownership. If people have no control over a situation, the only way to respond is to point fingers and complain. We all work on things together -- there aren't many areas that are exclusively community or WMF. If you don't let the community do anything to fix a problem or constructively contribute to bettering the situation, you're going to find yourself stuck with a lot of bad faith and complaining. Take the WMFwiki policy decision for example -- was it really necessary to discuss everything behind closed doors? Did the action need to be taken two hours before the work week ended and before the decision maker would be out of reach? We're always painting the Wikimedia Foundation as the victim, but we're forgetting that they definitely have their share of the blame. I realize that we're all human, but, at the end of the day, the Foundation *should* be held to a higher standard -- they are being paid to learn from their mistakes, get things done correctly, and handle criticism. If something is going to be controversial, it should not be done on a Friday before work ends and then say no one can respond until Monday when someone critiques it. [Again: I'm speaking more generally. I don't personally care that much about the WMFwiki issue, since I'm not active much anymore.] We definitely have an agency issue here. The volunteers and the community should not be viewed as a lone aggressor -- they're who the Foundation ultimately report to: Staff = ED = Board = Community. The readers and donors are clear stakeholders, but the community is at the top of the pyramid. The Foundation is not completely innocent, but when things go wrong, we can't just call the community out for complaining and then ignore the reason for that complaint. -- Casey Brown (Cbrown1023) caseybrown.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Casey Brown, 13/05/2013 07:05: [...] [Note that I'm speaking generally -- I personally think Gayle can handle criticism and she seems very nice. She also probably had no idea this would create dramz. My comment is directed towards the general omg think of the staff member! response to criticism that is systemic in our movement.] Still, omg think of the staff member! seems to be the point Gayle and Philippe make on this thread. If history teaches something, I guess the board will soon approve a resolution to request the development of a Personal Communitymember Filter to AT LAST hide all that offensive content in our community. MediaWiki-mailman integration offers some challenges, but our commitment to openness will swiftly help, shutting down more mailing lists in favour of wiki discussions. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
* I'm just going to top post here because responding to you in line won't be helpful to anybody.The staff ARE held to a higher standard, they are held to a higher standard day in and day out. If you don't think they are then you're blind. They get attacked at a level that is NOTHING compared to what they do or dish out NOTHING. They hold back because they're staff and they should hold back. Can the foundation get better? Of course it can, is every single thing Philippe said still true? Yes, in fact I'd probably be harsher about it. I'm sometimes embarrassed to be from the community when I read the mailing list and, less often, on wiki. Even I have to sit down on my hands, calm down, have a cup of tea and then go on damage control explaining to other staff members that we need to get better but that the community isn't nearly as bad as it seems sometimes. I have to remind myself that I'm not lying when I tell them that it isn't the entire community yelling at them, just a dozen or two on a mailing list and that they don't represent everyone. There is no doubt that the Foundation can get better in many areas, but I will 100% stand by my statement that the way that some portions of the community (that tend to congregate on the mailing lists and certain areas on wiki) is embarrassing and insane. Given some of the statements that are made I'm not actually sure staff SHOULD respond to those people, yet they still do in the end because they're staff, and they're held to a higher standard. Is it true that some of this is 'the wiki way' and they should 'get used to it' because 'that's how we treat ourselves'? I'd say that 99%+ of the wiki isn't anywhere near as bad though I sadly admit that some of it is though most realize that's bad. The lack of civility on wiki has been a long running problem we have all known about, yet for some reason some people have decided that targeting the staff is fair game. In the US, and most countries I know, employers have a legal obligation to ensure a healthy working environment both physical and emotional. The working environment for our staff is NOT always emotionally healthy. * * * *James* * On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Casey Brown li...@caseybrown.org wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 8:28 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Try and be a bit nicer please. Gayle is still relatively new and this level of scrutiny might be jarring for someone. Comments like these have always bothered me. Gayle isn't some random secretary or new run-of-the-mill employee. She is a C-level staff member who has been here for more than a year and made a policy decision that people have feedback on. While the feedback may not have come in the nicest form, it is still valid and we can't just ignore it because it wasn't nice enough. As a high level staff member in charge of your own department, you need to deal with it -- this is one thing that comes with the job, unfortunately. It's an insult to Gayle to assume that she will not be able to handle criticism or answer people's responses. A C-level staff member needs to be able to handle this scrutiny, even high level scrutiny, when they were the one that made the call, and I'm sure she's more than capable of doing that. [Note that I'm speaking generally -- I personally think Gayle can handle criticism and she seems very nice. She also probably had no idea this would create dramz. My comment is directed towards the general omg think of the staff member! response to criticism that is systemic in our movement.] On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Philippe Beaudette phili...@wikimedia.org wrote: With that said: I'm afraid we're headed toward a precipice. What I'm seeing scares me. I see less and less good faith being offered toward the WMF. This is something that bothers me too. The situation is always framed as poor WMF. Yes, it is true that bad faith is assumed on both sides, but I don't really think the community (including the chapters) is the only one doing that. A lot of the reason the community responds with such little faith or with such outrage at the actions of the Wikimedia Foundation is because they do not afford them any good faith either -- the community is simply acting on the defensive. Many decisions are just handed out, are half-baked, or are handled behind closed doors, so people have no idea how to respond and feel no ownership. If people have no control over a situation, the only way to respond is to point fingers and complain. We all work on things together -- there aren't many areas that are exclusively community or WMF. If you don't let the community do anything to fix a problem or constructively contribute to bettering the situation, you're going to find yourself stuck with a lot of bad faith and complaining. Take the WMFwiki policy decision for example -- was it really necessary to discuss everything behind closed doors? Did the action need to be taken two hours
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote: Casey Brown, 13/05/2013 07:05: [...] [Note that I'm speaking generally -- I personally think Gayle can handle criticism and she seems very nice. She also probably had no idea this would create dramz. My comment is directed towards the general omg think of the staff member! response to criticism that is systemic in our movement.] Still, omg think of the staff member! seems to be the point Gayle and Philippe make on this thread. If history teaches something, I guess the board will soon approve a resolution to request the development of a Personal Communitymember Filter to AT LAST hide all that offensive content in our community. MediaWiki-mailman integration offers some challenges, but our commitment to openness will swiftly help, shutting down more mailing lists in favour of wiki discussions. Nemo Au contraire, I feel we should all earn some kind of barnstar just for participating in this discussion/situation. You know, it's kind of the ultimate Wikimedian tempest: arguing over who gets to add users and delete pages on what is quite possibly the world's most boring wiki[1]... It's also a quintessentially Wikimedian debate because there's all this subtext -- assumed but not articulated -- that isn't minor at all: about community ownership versus corporate control, about who has authority to make decisions in what sphere, about the role volunteers play in the organization, over what personal reputation means on the projects, over what admin rights mean, what kind of work environment the staff have, etc.. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here and guess that Gayle wasn't intending to start a debate on all these big important topics, or even perhaps to comment on them at all. I'm also gonna say from experience that it's often damn hard to wade into these waters and take an action *without* touching off a debate on all these subjects. As someone said upthread, the golden rule does help, as does practice working with the wiki way, and knowing all the personal ins and outs of Wikimedia and our arcane culture. But *even that* doesn't always save someone from making an unpopular decision, or from screwing up or not thinking through all the ways they might be wading into a minefield -- and that goes for all of us, staff, board, community alike. Hey, ask me how I know. Sheesh, being part of the world's biggest collaborative project is hard sometimes. -- phoebe 1. I exempt, of course, the internal wiki at my workplace, which has won the crown many years running. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Hi all, for those of you who do not watch the RecentChanges on the Foundation wiki https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges, I think it might be somehow surprising to see that in a top-level decision, almost all volunteer administrators of the wiki have been stripped off their adminship yesterday evening (UTC time). As far as I know, community members have been helping out maintaining this wiki for as long as 2006, spending countless hours of their free time on categorising existing pages, importing translations from Meta, and recently, deleting unnecessary and broken pages left over by WMF staff. Apparently, this is something that not only isn't appreciated, but unwelcome. Let me repeat that: the WMF does not wish volunteers to help out with running their wiki, even if they have been helping out almost since the very start of the wiki. Some questions come to my mind right now: 1) Who made the decision to remove adminship from all community members? (I'm assuming it was Gayle, but it could've be someone from the Communications department for all we know.) 2) Why did you make this decision now? What changed? 3) Why did you decide to desysop people straight away instead of discussing things with them first? These are questions directed at the WMF—for you regular folks, I have a riddle (I'll give a WikiLove barnstar to the first person to submit a correct answer). There is /at least/ one community member who does not hold any official position within the WMF, and who has not been desysopped in yesterday's purge—do you know who this person is? -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
The same happend to the Wikimedia Blog. Most of the moderators where volunteers (and the only real active ones also). My moderator rights where removed and I have to go after that myself, I didn't got a message or anything. While I was list administrator for wikitech-l I got the mail also that I needed to give my password so that the list can be run by the staff. I didn't respond to that mail (Thought it was spam cause It was send by gmail). \ It gives me the feeling that we need a bigger fundraiser cause people GET PAYED for doing things other people DO FOR FREE. Huib On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 1:15 PM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, --- Dear XXX, Thank you for your work with the Foundation wiki. At this time, we are formalizing a new requirement, which is that administrator access is given only to staff and board. I am having administrator access to accounts that are neither staff or board be disabled, effective immediately. Sincerely, Gayle -- Gayle Karen K. Young Chief Talent and Culture Officer Wikimedia Foundation 415.310.8416 www.wikimediafoundation.org --- Gayle's response (which was the first time she has edited the wiki in ~5 months[2]) seems lacking[1] in general and the subsequent responses about knowing what these people do on the wiki Another interesting fact is that Mz got desysoped first, When you would expect it to be done in alphabetically order. We've been discussing this for awhile, and the thought is that it's ultimately the Foundation's web presence, not the community's web presence. A useful parallel to consider might be how userrights are given to staffers on the community wikis; they're distributed as and when they're needed for a specific task. Um, Rights for staff on wikis are given out like candy?, although not as much thee days but it still happens. Also, How is the foundation wiki not apart of the community? Has the position of the legal department changed? or the boards? just randomly changing without any imput or discussions seems utlimately strange. since it is actually their wiki (just like everything else that falls under the foundation) [1]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?diff=91857oldid=91855#Users_stripped_of_rights.3F [2]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributionstarget=Gyoung [3]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:Log/rights ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Met vriendelijke groet, Huib Laurens ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
This sort of tone might be appropriate coming from HR in a bank or something, but I'm tremendously disappointed that something so tactless and rude was sent out from a senior officer in the Foundation to its volunteers. I know Gayle is a new hire, so I'm assuming good faith that she wasn't aware that taking this sort of attitude with volunteers would go down like a lead balloon. Someone at the WMF needs to take Gayle into an office and patiently explain to her that the volunteers whose access she just disabled, effective immediately are the same ones that keep the websites that per her salary going. Cheers, Craig Franklin On 11 May 2013 21:15, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, --- Dear XXX, Thank you for your work with the Foundation wiki. At this time, we are formalizing a new requirement, which is that administrator access is given only to staff and board. I am having administrator access to accounts that are neither staff or board be disabled, effective immediately. Sincerely, Gayle -- Gayle Karen K. Young Chief Talent and Culture Officer Wikimedia Foundation 415.310.8416 www.wikimediafoundation.org --- Gayle's response (which was the first time she has edited the wiki in ~5 months[2]) seems lacking[1] in general and the subsequent responses about knowing what these people do on the wiki Another interesting fact is that Mz got desysoped first, When you would expect it to be done in alphabetically order. We've been discussing this for awhile, and the thought is that it's ultimately the Foundation's web presence, not the community's web presence. A useful parallel to consider might be how userrights are given to staffers on the community wikis; they're distributed as and when they're needed for a specific task. Um, Rights for staff on wikis are given out like candy?, although not as much thee days but it still happens. Also, How is the foundation wiki not apart of the community? Has the position of the legal department changed? or the boards? just randomly changing without any imput or discussions seems utlimately strange. since it is actually their wiki (just like everything else that falls under the foundation) [1]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?diff=91857oldid=91855#Users_stripped_of_rights.3F [2]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributionstarget=Gyoung [3]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:Log/rights ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Having an HR IR background myself, I am most surprised that the person for managing TALENT and CULTURE would take such a move without even so much as consulting with the community who keep the WMF's presence on the internet working, nor without giving them an actual reason as to why this has occurred. I can only encourage Karen to either 1) explain why this was an absolutely necessary step to make, or 2) reverse those actions. Russavia On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: This sort of tone might be appropriate coming from HR in a bank or something, but I'm tremendously disappointed that something so tactless and rude was sent out from a senior officer in the Foundation to its volunteers. I know Gayle is a new hire, so I'm assuming good faith that she wasn't aware that taking this sort of attitude with volunteers would go down like a lead balloon. Someone at the WMF needs to take Gayle into an office and patiently explain to her that the volunteers whose access she just disabled, effective immediately are the same ones that keep the websites that per her salary going. Cheers, Craig Franklin On 11 May 2013 21:15, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, --- Dear XXX, Thank you for your work with the Foundation wiki. At this time, we are formalizing a new requirement, which is that administrator access is given only to staff and board. I am having administrator access to accounts that are neither staff or board be disabled, effective immediately. Sincerely, Gayle -- Gayle Karen K. Young Chief Talent and Culture Officer Wikimedia Foundation 415.310.8416 www.wikimediafoundation.org --- Gayle's response (which was the first time she has edited the wiki in ~5 months[2]) seems lacking[1] in general and the subsequent responses about knowing what these people do on the wiki Another interesting fact is that Mz got desysoped first, When you would expect it to be done in alphabetically order. We've been discussing this for awhile, and the thought is that it's ultimately the Foundation's web presence, not the community's web presence. A useful parallel to consider might be how userrights are given to staffers on the community wikis; they're distributed as and when they're needed for a specific task. Um, Rights for staff on wikis are given out like candy?, although not as much thee days but it still happens. Also, How is the foundation wiki not apart of the community? Has the position of the legal department changed? or the boards? just randomly changing without any imput or discussions seems utlimately strange. since it is actually their wiki (just like everything else that falls under the foundation) [1]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?diff=91857oldid=91855#Users_stripped_of_rights.3F [2]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributionstarget=Gyoung [3]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:Log/rights ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Apologies, I mean Gayle, not Karen. Russavia On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote: Having an HR IR background myself, I am most surprised that the person for managing TALENT and CULTURE would take such a move without even so much as consulting with the community who keep the WMF's presence on the internet working, nor without giving them an actual reason as to why this has occurred. I can only encourage Karen to either 1) explain why this was an absolutely necessary step to make, or 2) reverse those actions. Russavia On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: This sort of tone might be appropriate coming from HR in a bank or something, but I'm tremendously disappointed that something so tactless and rude was sent out from a senior officer in the Foundation to its volunteers. I know Gayle is a new hire, so I'm assuming good faith that she wasn't aware that taking this sort of attitude with volunteers would go down like a lead balloon. Someone at the WMF needs to take Gayle into an office and patiently explain to her that the volunteers whose access she just disabled, effective immediately are the same ones that keep the websites that per her salary going. Cheers, Craig Franklin On 11 May 2013 21:15, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, --- Dear XXX, Thank you for your work with the Foundation wiki. At this time, we are formalizing a new requirement, which is that administrator access is given only to staff and board. I am having administrator access to accounts that are neither staff or board be disabled, effective immediately. Sincerely, Gayle -- Gayle Karen K. Young Chief Talent and Culture Officer Wikimedia Foundation 415.310.8416 www.wikimediafoundation.org --- Gayle's response (which was the first time she has edited the wiki in ~5 months[2]) seems lacking[1] in general and the subsequent responses about knowing what these people do on the wiki Another interesting fact is that Mz got desysoped first, When you would expect it to be done in alphabetically order. We've been discussing this for awhile, and the thought is that it's ultimately the Foundation's web presence, not the community's web presence. A useful parallel to consider might be how userrights are given to staffers on the community wikis; they're distributed as and when they're needed for a specific task. Um, Rights for staff on wikis are given out like candy?, although not as much thee days but it still happens. Also, How is the foundation wiki not apart of the community? Has the position of the legal department changed? or the boards? just randomly changing without any imput or discussions seems utlimately strange. since it is actually their wiki (just like everything else that falls under the foundation) [1]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?diff=91857oldid=91855#Users_stripped_of_rights.3F [2]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributionstarget=Gyoung [3]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:Log/rights ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Given the foundation's recent tsunami of centralisation I'm not surprised by this at all. The message is clear - the community doesn't belong here. Go back to meta. I'll be interested to see how long the WMF wiki will last before they hit their first massive technical problem happens and they need to call in a volunteer to fix it. Deryck On 11 May 2013 12:15, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, --- Dear XXX, Thank you for your work with the Foundation wiki. At this time, we are formalizing a new requirement, which is that administrator access is given only to staff and board. I am having administrator access to accounts that are neither staff or board be disabled, effective immediately. Sincerely, Gayle -- Gayle Karen K. Young Chief Talent and Culture Officer Wikimedia Foundation 415.310.8416 www.wikimediafoundation.org --- Gayle's response (which was the first time she has edited the wiki in ~5 months[2]) seems lacking[1] in general and the subsequent responses about knowing what these people do on the wiki Another interesting fact is that Mz got desysoped first, When you would expect it to be done in alphabetically order. We've been discussing this for awhile, and the thought is that it's ultimately the Foundation's web presence, not the community's web presence. A useful parallel to consider might be how userrights are given to staffers on the community wikis; they're distributed as and when they're needed for a specific task. Um, Rights for staff on wikis are given out like candy?, although not as much thee days but it still happens. Also, How is the foundation wiki not apart of the community? Has the position of the legal department changed? or the boards? just randomly changing without any imput or discussions seems utlimately strange. since it is actually their wiki (just like everything else that falls under the foundation) [1]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?diff=91857oldid=91855#Users_stripped_of_rights.3F [2]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributionstarget=Gyoung [3]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:Log/rights ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Can we please give time to the Foundation to response and express their side before everyone starts to attack them? I think we had enough of that on Internal-l. After the first response, or at least 24h, I will understand everyone feelings about that. (And right now I'm also don't agree or understand WMF's decision, but I'm waiting to hear them first). On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 4:46 PM, Deryck Chan deryckc...@wikimedia.hkwrote: Given the foundation's recent tsunami of centralisation I'm not surprised by this at all. The message is clear - the community doesn't belong here. Go back to meta. I'll be interested to see how long the WMF wiki will last before they hit their first massive technical problem happens and they need to call in a volunteer to fix it. Deryck On 11 May 2013 12:15, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, --- Dear XXX, Thank you for your work with the Foundation wiki. At this time, we are formalizing a new requirement, which is that administrator access is given only to staff and board. I am having administrator access to accounts that are neither staff or board be disabled, effective immediately. Sincerely, Gayle -- Gayle Karen K. Young Chief Talent and Culture Officer Wikimedia Foundation 415.310.8416 www.wikimediafoundation.org --- Gayle's response (which was the first time she has edited the wiki in ~5 months[2]) seems lacking[1] in general and the subsequent responses about knowing what these people do on the wiki Another interesting fact is that Mz got desysoped first, When you would expect it to be done in alphabetically order. We've been discussing this for awhile, and the thought is that it's ultimately the Foundation's web presence, not the community's web presence. A useful parallel to consider might be how userrights are given to staffers on the community wikis; they're distributed as and when they're needed for a specific task. Um, Rights for staff on wikis are given out like candy?, although not as much thee days but it still happens. Also, How is the foundation wiki not apart of the community? Has the position of the legal department changed? or the boards? just randomly changing without any imput or discussions seems utlimately strange. since it is actually their wiki (just like everything else that falls under the foundation) [1]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?diff=91857oldid=91855#Users_stripped_of_rights.3F [2]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributionstarget=Gyoung [3]. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Special:Log/rights ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Deryck Chan wrote: Given the foundation's recent tsunami of centralisation I'm not surprised by this at all. The message is clear - the community doesn't belong here. Go back to meta. Yeah, I think you're right. It seems to be part of a larger pattern. * Blog access has been restricted (as noted). * Bugzilla adminship has been restricted to staff only. * wikimediafoundation.org adminship is now restricted to staff and Board Members. * Shell access has been restricted to staff only (no more volunteer sysadmins). Relatedly, the Toolserver is being slowly killed in favor of a controlled sandbox called Wikimedia Labs and all Wikimedia accounts are being unified (with forceable usurps/renames) to make it easier to track and control users across all Wikimedia wikis. It's very surprising that the Board has been so quiet about all of this. Generally, a few staff members (notably Philippe and his team) have tried to create tiers in which paid staff are above volunteers. Even the most trusted volunteers are no longer allowed to hold positions of trust within the Wikimedia community. This is very bad. Are there ways to address this? But to blame this on Gayle is kind of insane. It seems clear to me that she's being used as a pawn here. There are very few indications that this has anything to do with her, aside from a few log entries (from... Philippe) inexplicably pointing to her name. And the curt e-mail she sent out to affected users. Her involvement with the wiki would charitably be described as negligible. The director of _community advocacy_ (Philippe) is stripping nearly every community member of user rights. And yet there's still no provided rationale for the change in policy, other than it being based on a series of private discussions. Meanwhile, the home page of wikimediafoundation.org stresses how transparent the organization is. This is a pretty disappointing day. I'd be interested to hear what Gayle, Philippe, or the Board has to say. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Itzik Edri wrote: Can we please give time to the Foundation to response and express their side before everyone starts to attack them? I think we had enough of that on Internal-l. After the first response, or at least 24h, I will understand everyone feelings about that. (And right now I'm also don't agree or understand WMF's decision, but I'm waiting to hear them first). I agree that it would be nice to have a full explanation from the Wikimedia Foundation here (particularly from Philippe and Gayle, who have apparently conspired). But I'm not sure I agree that time is needed to evaluate what has happened. There was certainly no wait before users were stripped of their user rights. The lack of any emergency makes this rash series of actions even more upsetting and confusing. Wikimedia _is_ its community. When a few staff members start to kick out the community (from the blog, from Bugzilla, from volunteer sysadminning), it's a pretty awful situation that needs to be immediately addressed, in my opinion. The alternative is that most volunteers will simply go away. While that may seem like a victory to certain staff members, I wonder when they'll realize that it's these same volunteers that keep the projects running. When the dedicated and trusted volunteers leave, their (paid) jobs will soon follow. Wikimedia simply isn't sustainable without trusted volunteers. Slapping them in the face does what? MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Sent from my mobile. Please excuse the brevity and typos. On May 11, 2013 4:36 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Deryck Chan wrote: Given the foundation's recent tsunami of centralisation I'm not surprised by this at all. The message is clear - the community doesn't belong here. Go back to meta. Yeah, I think you're right. It seems to be part of a larger pattern. * Blog access has been restricted (as noted). * Bugzilla adminship has been restricted to staff only. * wikimediafoundation.org adminship is now restricted to staff and Board Members. * Shell access has been restricted to staff only (no more volunteer sysadmins). Someone better tell that to domas and his ssh key. As someone tasked with protecting the servers,ssh keys should be restricted as much as possible, both with staff and volunteers. that is technical and not political. Relatedly, the Toolserver is being slowly killed in favor of a controlled sandbox called Wikimedia Labs and all Wikimedia accounts are being unified (with forceable usurps/renames) to make it easier to track and control users across all Wikimedia wikis. It's very surprising that the Board has been so quiet about all of this. Generally, a few staff members (notably Philippe and his team) have tried to create tiers in which paid staff are above volunteers. Even the most trusted volunteers are no longer allowed to hold positions of trust within the Wikimedia community. This is very bad. Are there ways to address this? But to blame this on Gayle is kind of insane. It seems clear to me that she's being used as a pawn here. There are very few indications that this has anything to do with her, aside from a few log entries (from... Philippe) inexplicably pointing to her name. And the curt e-mail she sent out to affected users. Her involvement with the wiki would charitably be described as negligible. The director of _community advocacy_ (Philippe) is stripping nearly every community member of user rights. And yet there's still no provided rationale for the change in policy, other than it being based on a series of private discussions. Meanwhile, the home page of wikimediafoundation.org stresses how transparent the organization is. This is a pretty disappointing day. I'd be interested to hear what Gayle, Philippe, or the Board has to say. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
K. Peachey, 11/05/2013 16:59: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Leslie Carr lc...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... As someone tasked with protecting the servers,ssh keys should be restricted as much as possible, both with staff and volunteers. that is technical and not political. That same argument can also be used for restricting all but even a smaller circle of staff from root. Probably not the best example to lead with... Yes, or all the sysops on foundationwiki with 0 edits. :) Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Leslie Carr wrote: * Shell access has been restricted to staff only (no more volunteer sysadmins). Someone better tell that to domas and his ssh key. As someone tasked with protecting the servers, ssh keys should be restricted as much as possible, both with staff and volunteers. that is technical and not political. That was just sloppy wording on my part, apologies. Shell/root access has been indeed been restricted to staff only. About four users have been grandfathered in (Domas, Jens, River, Robert S.). I'll note that these users have all contributed an enormous amount (for free!) to the Wikimedia movement. They deserve only our appreciation for the volunteer work they've done. And they serve as a model of what trusted volunteers can do. Please don't suggest that this has anything to do with technical decisions. Even a child can see that this is pure politics. Leslie, do you agree with these policies that remove all non-staff from positions of trust? Do you agree with creating tiers between staff and everyone else? MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 4:59 PM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Leslie Carr lc...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... As someone tasked with protecting the servers,ssh keys should be restricted as much as possible, both with staff and volunteers. that is technical and not political. That same argument can also be used for restricting all but even a smaller circle of staff from root. Probably not the best example to lead with... Actually it is the perfect example to lead with -- very few people with shell access have root. -- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:04 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Leslie Carr wrote: * Shell access has been restricted to staff only (no more volunteer sysadmins). Someone better tell that to domas and his ssh key. As someone tasked with protecting the servers, ssh keys should be restricted as much as possible, both with staff and volunteers. that is technical and not political. That was just sloppy wording on my part, apologies. Shell/root access has been indeed been restricted to staff only. About four users have been grandfathered in (Domas, Jens, River, Robert S.). I'll note that these users have all contributed an enormous amount (for free!) to the Wikimedia movement. They deserve only our appreciation for the volunteer work they've done. And they serve as a model of what trusted volunteers can do. Please don't suggest that this has anything to do with technical decisions. Even a child can see that this is pure politics. Leslie, do you agree with these policies that remove all non-staff from positions of trust? Do you agree with creating tiers between staff and everyone else? I have no opinion on all the other policies - my concern, expertise, and really the only place I think my opinion even matters is for the servers. My opinion is that we should restrict any ssh access on the cluster to those who have demonstrated that they both need it and can handle the responsibility. If a volunteer has been very responsible in labs and has a demonstratable need, I'd be fine with that. The reason that ops staff get ssh access and root is that we (hopefully) during our interview and references have demonstrated the ability to handle the access responsibly, have a need, and on top of that have signed a big stack of paperwork. But the more that we can do on labs without ever touching production, the better off the stability of the cluster. Also I believe that several analytics folks ( under admins::restricted in admins.pp ) are not employees but do have some ssh access. Leslie MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 11 May 2013 14:46, Deryck Chan deryckc...@wikimedia.hk wrote: Given the foundation's recent tsunami of centralisation I'm not surprised by this at all. Sad to say, this chimes with the Foundation's recent decision to consult on changes to en.Wikipedia's method of notifying users that they have a talk page message, and then to reject the overwhelming consensus (to return the familiar orange bar, at least while other options are discussed) of that consultation. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 11 May 2013 15:36, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Yeah, I think you're right. It seems to be part of a larger pattern. + Withdrawal of the ability to use WMF logos/ wordmarks in community projects, such as QRpedia. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 05/11/2013 06:26 AM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski wrote: Let me repeat that: the WMF does not wish volunteers to help out with running their wiki, even if they have been helping out almost since the very start of the wiki. Tomasz, while it seems clear that communications about that move seem to have been lacking, I think it's unwarranted to ascribe ill-intent to the WMF staff. Perhaps you should wait for a response from them before you declare what their wishes may be or what their reasons were? -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Marc A. Pelletier wrote: Tomasz, while it seems clear that communications about that move seem to have been lacking, I think it's unwarranted to ascribe ill-intent to the WMF staff. Perhaps you should wait for a response from them before you declare what their wishes may be or what their reasons were? I cannot tell what was the /intent/ of the WMF when they acted (for obvious reasons), but I think that my description of the situation was pretty justified — and the message sent to all those desysopped volunteers could not have been more clear. If the WMF wants their help, why would they desysop them in the first place? If you had read my e-mail, then I'm sure you noticed that I actually asked about the reasons for this decision and its execution, as I am unable to find any justification for what happened. [Yes, I do understand there is a considerable time difference, etc; I'll be patiently waiting for a response from the WMF.] -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: [Yes, I do understand there is a considerable time difference, etc; I'll be patiently waiting for a response from the WMF.] Might even have to wait till Monday. This was done on a Friday night I think. There doesn't seem to be any method to how these rights are being assigned and retained. Observations- 1) Only 2 of the current board members (besides Jimmy) have admin rights. Prob. on the argument that they are community-elected? 2) A few of the current admins that retained their flag have never made a contribution, or made any in the last year. 3) Phoebe for some reason, retains her right while currently not being on staff or the board. 4) Only 2 people are prob. assigned on the basis of advisory board without any explanation. There is no updated list to check who is on the advisory board this time. There does seem to be a pattern about how this is being cleaned up, and I don't think Gayle is the impetus behind this though she is taking the blame for it. Theo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Gayle is travelling today and not online, so I'll take a crack at responding to this. The editors are responsible for the projects: the Wikimedia Foundation knows that, acknowledges it, and is deeply appreciative (as are all readers) for the work that volunteers do in the projects. The Wikimedia Foundation is responsible for the Wikimedia Foundation wiki (and the blog). We are grateful to get community help there, and a small number of community members do really good work with us on both the WMF wiki and the blog. But ultimately that wiki, and the blog, are our responsibility, and we are accountable for making sure that e.g. the staff page, the Board bios, the resolution texts, etc., are maintained and in good shape. Most material on the WMF is not created via collaborative production processes -- it's corporate in nature, meaning that it is developed by the Wikimedia Foundation, for an audience of Wikimedia Foundation stakeholders, which includes community members and prospective community members, donors, readers of the projects, media, and others. My understanding is that administrator rights have been removed from a small number of volunteers, but that those people still have basic editing rights. My understanding is that the Wikimedia Foundation staff who work on the Foundation wiki have been grateful (and are grateful) for the help they've gotten from community members in maintaining the Foundation wiki, and that we hope they'll continue to help us. They've been great, and we're grateful. But, my understanding is also that occasionally volunteers have overridden decisions made by staff on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki. I don't think that's ever been a huge problem: I don't think we've ever had a situation in which extensive discussion hasn't reached an okay conclusion. But, the extensive discussions --which, I understand, have typically been one-on-one, by which I mean, not a large number of community members or a community consensus against something the Foundation has wanted to do, but rather one volunteer disagreeing with something staff have been asked to do as part of their job --- occasionally, those discussions have been extremely time-consuming. That's not good. The staff working on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki have jobs they've got to get done, in support of the entire movement. If they spend days or weeks needing to persuade a single community member of the merits of something they want to do on the Foundation wiki, or if they need to modify their plans extensively to accommodate the opinions of a single community member, that reduces the amount of time available for them to do the rest of their work. Which, I repeat, is in the service of the movement overall. So I would say this: This decision is not about the community versus the WMF. This decision is about the WMF staff, and making it possible for them to do their work on the WMF wiki with some reasonable degree of efficiency and effectiveness. This decision clarifies roles-and-responsibilities. On the projects, the volunteers are the editorial leads, and the WMF plays a supporting role by creating functionality, maintaining the servers, paying the bandwidth bills, and so forth. On the WMF wiki, the WMF is the editorial lead, and volunteers can (and do) play a supporting role helping staff organize pages, maintain pages, and so forth. That's a reasonable division, and I think having clarity around it is a good thing. Slightly more broadly: when the Wikimedia movement was very young, everybody did everything and there wasn't much division of roles-and-responsibilities. I remember when the Wikimedia Foundation budgets were prepared by volunteers, when the trademarks were managed by volunteers, and so forth. That was appropriate for the time, and even though it was messy, it was kind of great. Then we all went through a period in which roles-and-responsibilities were utterly unclear -- it wasn't at all obvious who should do what, and many roles-and-responsibilities were hotly disputed. Personally, I feel like we're moving into a period now in which things are getting clearer. We don't pay staff to edit the projects: staff who edit do it on their own time, as a hobby or special personal interest. We do pay staff to do things that are better done by staff than by volunteers, such as managing the trademark portfolio. Some volunteers (such as Domas) have very special privileges and powers, because they've proved over time they are exceptionally skilled. Some volunteers support the Wikimedia Foundation staff in their work in a variety of ways, because they've proved their interest and abilities. Some work happens in close partnership between staff and volunteers, such as production of blog posts, speaking with the media, and in projects such as the Global Ed one. Sometimes organized groups of volunteers are created by volunteers and supported by staff (e.g. ArbCom or AffCom) and sometimes organized groups of volunteers are created by
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Sue Gardner wrote: So. People can disagree with this decision, and that's okay. But ultimately, the Wikimedia Foundation is responsible for the Wikimedia Foundation wiki: it's our job to figure out how best to manage and Maintain it. That's what we're doing here. wikimediafoundation.org has historically been managed by the Board. Not Gayle or Philippe. I'm still waiting on the Board to chime in here. It's my understanding that several Board members (current and former) wanted to open the wiki to more editing and cleanup in the short-term and in the long-term re-unite the wiki with Meta-Wiki at www.wikimedia.org. This is a step in the wrong direction. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On 05/11/2013 12:41 PM, Seb35 wrote: At the same time, it’s a very bad timing of doing such a controversial action just before weekend, and let people wondering during two days the reasons behind this action. So waiting still 2 days.. Yes, IMO that was a faux-pas. This should have been announced in advance and not done late Friday, if only to avoid those open questions. I note, however, that Sue gave an extended response in this thread a bit ago, so while it may not have been the best of timings, it's been swift. :-) -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
I'm not going to respond to all the points raised in your e-mail, Sue (partially because most of them are just too general), so let me just mentioned some of them. The editors are responsible for the projects: the Wikimedia Foundation knows that, acknowledges it, and is deeply appreciative (as are all readers) for the work that volunteers do in the projects. The Wikimedia Foundation is responsible for the Wikimedia Foundation wiki (and the blog). Then it should perhaps be renamed as the Wikimedia Foundation Blog With Guests Post from Community Members. We are grateful to get community help there, and a small number of community members do really good work with us on both the WMF wiki and the blog. But ultimately that wiki, and the blog, are our responsibility, and we are accountable for making sure that e.g. the staff page, the Board bios, the resolution texts, etc., are maintained and in good shape. Most material on the WMF is not created via collaborative production processes -- it's corporate in nature, meaning that it is developed by the Wikimedia Foundation, for an audience of Wikimedia Foundation stakeholders, which includes community members and prospective community members, donors, readers of the projects, media, and others. Well, then I am still surprised to see you thank those volunteers for their work in this matter—by desysopping them all in one, unannounced and not discussed user rights purge. The most important reason why all those pages that you mention, Sue, are maintained and in good shape is that community members have been very often driving changes, helping with importing translations, and making thousands of small changes (be it typos, categorisation or design-like). Seeing that there aren't any WMF employees who contributed as much time and work as some community members (with the possible exception of Philippe and Heather), I'm puzzled to see you make this decision. This having been written, I would like to reiterate my questions again (and add another one): 1) Who made the decision to remove adminship from all community members? 2) Why did you make this decision now? What changed? 3) Why did you decide to desysop people straight away instead of discussing things with them first? 4) /NEW/ Who precisely (what department) is responsible for the maintenance of the wiki, and why didn't they perform their roles before? -- Tomasz ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Argh, why do we have to keep going through this over and over again? I'm sure we're long past the point where Sue and many members of the staff are convinced that they will be attacked by someone in reaction to any decision they could make. Maybe that's true, but its no excuse for transforming such a picayune change into a drama bomb through the utter failure to manage the implementation of a change that affects dedicated volunteers. An advanced notice, an explanation, a thank you, an expression of hope that volunteers will continue to help. That's all it would have taken to preserve this as what it ought to have been, a non-issue. Instead, they received a terse and impersonal notice after the fact that amounted to the corporate version of ordering someone off your lawn. Now we have an explanation, but it's a bit late - and it comes in place of what the first WMF response ought to have been, an apology for once again bungling an interaction with volunteers. Not all that long ago the WMF seemed to consider ahead of time the potential reaction of volunteers, and to tailor actions and communication to limit the chance of anger, disappointment and hurt feelings among them. Perhaps it was a natural, and unspoken, priority at a time when many WMF leaders were volunteers and former volunteers. Maybe we're past that point, and the WMF needs to begin actively pushing this ethos into the organizational culture of both staff and volunteer leadership groups. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Thanks a lot for this explanation. On the other side, wikis not only need content producers (here WMF) but also curators (wikignomes) who are sorting the pages, deleting and moving pages, typocorrecting, templating things, helping new users in formatting texts, etc. (I read some of the Florence’s blogposts :) -- and not being admin restricts a lot the possible actions. And on the example you give about disagreement between two editors (e.g. staffer and volunteer), in theory there is no reason the staffer’s solution is better or worse than the volunteer’s solution, but perhaps a mean solution can be better than any of the two initial solutions; and in this case, the spent time is not a waste of time. Sébastien Le Sat, 11 May 2013 18:48:38 +0200, Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org a écrit: Gayle is travelling today and not online, so I'll take a crack at responding to this. The editors are responsible for the projects: the Wikimedia Foundation knows that, acknowledges it, and is deeply appreciative (as are all readers) for the work that volunteers do in the projects. The Wikimedia Foundation is responsible for the Wikimedia Foundation wiki (and the blog). We are grateful to get community help there, and a small number of community members do really good work with us on both the WMF wiki and the blog. But ultimately that wiki, and the blog, are our responsibility, and we are accountable for making sure that e.g. the staff page, the Board bios, the resolution texts, etc., are maintained and in good shape. Most material on the WMF is not created via collaborative production processes -- it's corporate in nature, meaning that it is developed by the Wikimedia Foundation, for an audience of Wikimedia Foundation stakeholders, which includes community members and prospective community members, donors, readers of the projects, media, and others. My understanding is that administrator rights have been removed from a small number of volunteers, but that those people still have basic editing rights. My understanding is that the Wikimedia Foundation staff who work on the Foundation wiki have been grateful (and are grateful) for the help they've gotten from community members in maintaining the Foundation wiki, and that we hope they'll continue to help us. They've been great, and we're grateful. But, my understanding is also that occasionally volunteers have overridden decisions made by staff on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki. I don't think that's ever been a huge problem: I don't think we've ever had a situation in which extensive discussion hasn't reached an okay conclusion. But, the extensive discussions --which, I understand, have typically been one-on-one, by which I mean, not a large number of community members or a community consensus against something the Foundation has wanted to do, but rather one volunteer disagreeing with something staff have been asked to do as part of their job --- occasionally, those discussions have been extremely time-consuming. That's not good. The staff working on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki have jobs they've got to get done, in support of the entire movement. If they spend days or weeks needing to persuade a single community member of the merits of something they want to do on the Foundation wiki, or if they need to modify their plans extensively to accommodate the opinions of a single community member, that reduces the amount of time available for them to do the rest of their work. Which, I repeat, is in the service of the movement overall. So I would say this: This decision is not about the community versus the WMF. This decision is about the WMF staff, and making it possible for them to do their work on the WMF wiki with some reasonable degree of efficiency and effectiveness. This decision clarifies roles-and-responsibilities. On the projects, the volunteers are the editorial leads, and the WMF plays a supporting role by creating functionality, maintaining the servers, paying the bandwidth bills, and so forth. On the WMF wiki, the WMF is the editorial lead, and volunteers can (and do) play a supporting role helping staff organize pages, maintain pages, and so forth. That's a reasonable division, and I think having clarity around it is a good thing. Slightly more broadly: when the Wikimedia movement was very young, everybody did everything and there wasn't much division of roles-and-responsibilities. I remember when the Wikimedia Foundation budgets were prepared by volunteers, when the trademarks were managed by volunteers, and so forth. That was appropriate for the time, and even though it was messy, it was kind of great. Then we all went through a period in which roles-and-responsibilities were utterly unclear -- it wasn't at all obvious who should do what, and many roles-and-responsibilities were hotly disputed. Personally, I feel like we're moving into a period now in which things are getting clearer. We don't
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:48 AM, Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org wrote: My understanding is that administrator rights have been removed from a small number of volunteers, but that those people still have basic editing rights. Far more than basic, actually. The WMF wiki is unusual in that it allows insertion of raw HTML by any registered user (this is because the donation forms used to be hosted there; they're now developed on a dedicated site). Regular users also have permission to edit the MediaWiki: namespace, which helps with translation. This means that regular users can add arbitrary code that will be executed in the reader's browser, something that only admins can do on most of our other wikis. There are 600 registered users on the WMF wiki. While I understand the frustration with admin access being restricted, volunteers on this particular wiki are still trusted with extraordinary rights (without prejudice as to whether that configuration should be broadened or narrowed in future). I asked Philippe yesterday, and he said that account requests from Meta would continue to be processed (by JamesA and himself going forward). As Sue says, having the overall governance responsibilities on the wiki clarified is a normal step. Sorry for the rocky transition; no disrespect was intended. The original text on https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Welcome (written in 2004 when there was no WMF staff) with regard to the Board resolving all disputes should indeed be updated; the Board delegates day-to-day operational responsibilities to the organizational staff, and while the sentence is technically true, it was written at a time when that delegation was not possible. Nonetheless, it was clear from the very beginning that the WMF wiki was not operated according to the community governance practices established in other wikis because it serves a distinct purpose. Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Having read through this entire thread, I have to ask: would there have been any value in, instead of desysopping non-staff (because there appears to be a possibly-valid argument that non-staff did most of the administrative work on the wmf wiki), instead making it clear that unlike on all other wikis, +staff users had the final say in any administrative/editing dispute on the wmf wiki? That is, since Sue says a large part of the problem was non-staff making staff justify themselves and their decisions endlessly, why not just short-circuit that particular weak spot and otherwise let work carry on? I guess the operative questions here would be something like: 1. Was there actual misuse of admin tools being done by non-staff? 2. Were there other, non-misuse issues that arose from non-staff having +admin (i.e. we already know about too many challenges to staff, but was there anything else that made non-staff admins suboptimal? this would include even things like it looks weird to outsiders to have non-staff changing 'corporate' content) 3. If there weren't other issues, could the issue of non-staff challenging staff decisions have been corrected with a less-drastic solution (such as clarifying who had final say in things) 4. Is it true that non-staff admins do significant portions of the work on that wiki, such that their loss will now cause the wiki to go un- or more-poorly-maintained? 5. If 4 is true, what solutions can we/the WMF put in place to pick up that slack so the wiki doesn't become worse? None of these questions are intended to apportion blame or determine who was right, but they may help us figure out why actions are being done, how we could have routed around this huge blow-up, and where to go from here. -Fluffernutter On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 9:48 AM, Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org wrote: My understanding is that administrator rights have been removed from a small number of volunteers, but that those people still have basic editing rights. Far more than basic, actually. The WMF wiki is unusual in that it allows insertion of raw HTML by any registered user (this is because the donation forms used to be hosted there; they're now developed on a dedicated site). Regular users also have permission to edit the MediaWiki: namespace, which helps with translation. This means that regular users can add arbitrary code that will be executed in the reader's browser, something that only admins can do on most of our other wikis. There are 600 registered users on the WMF wiki. While I understand the frustration with admin access being restricted, volunteers on this particular wiki are still trusted with extraordinary rights (without prejudice as to whether that configuration should be broadened or narrowed in future). I asked Philippe yesterday, and he said that account requests from Meta would continue to be processed (by JamesA and himself going forward). As Sue says, having the overall governance responsibilities on the wiki clarified is a normal step. Sorry for the rocky transition; no disrespect was intended. The original text on https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Welcome (written in 2004 when there was no WMF staff) with regard to the Board resolving all disputes should indeed be updated; the Board delegates day-to-day operational responsibilities to the organizational staff, and while the sentence is technically true, it was written at a time when that delegation was not possible. Nonetheless, it was clear from the very beginning that the WMF wiki was not operated according to the community governance practices established in other wikis because it serves a distinct purpose. Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 3:26 AM, Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net wrote: These are questions directed at the WMF—for you regular folks, I have a riddle (I'll give a WikiLove barnstar to the first person to submit a correct answer). There is /at least/ one community member who does not hold any official position within the WMF, and who has not been desysopped in yesterday's purge—do you know who this person is? If you're talking about me (I still seem to have admin rights, and no official position) I'll happily give up my admin flag -- not sure why I was left out of the batch. At any rate, I haven't edited much on the wmf wiki since last year; I just had admin rights so i could move files around when I was board secretary. As for the whole thing -- it seems like especially poor timing and communication around the action. It also seems dumb to desysop some of the users who know the most about how to format and work with wikis. On the other hand, the WMF wiki is special -- as the home of material from the organization that basically does not get changed -- and I know there's been some incidents, as Sue refers to, of reversals of staff decisions that led to a lot of misunderstandings. I, and I suspect most of us, just take this in stride because it's happened to us dozens of times; newer staff may not, however. Going forward I'd still support merging most of WMF wiki into meta, where we can use a normal community admin process; and keeping a limited version of it around for version-of-record documents and whatever technical needs re: fundraising it fills, and simply being a lot more clear about policies around that content. -- phoebe -- * I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers at gmail.com * ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
I just want to highlight Nathan's excellent and reasonable point: The WMF could work on: manag[ing] the implementation of a change that affects dedicated volunteers. An advanced notice, an explanation, a thank you, an expression of hope that volunteers will continue to help. That's all it would have taken to preserve this as what it ought to have been, a non-issue. There's a lot of adversarial dynamics between the Foundation and the Community. A little bit of courtesy and civility and thoughtfulness would go a long way towards avoiding antagonism. Wikipedians are mission-driven and autonomy-craving. Work with us on that, respect it, use it to your advantage. There are pain points in transition, some of them unavoidable, but WMF should still seek to minimize harm and improve mutual understanding at each step. Otherwise, we get situations that take far more energy than a simple explanation and expression of appreciation from the outset would have taken. To paraphrase one of my favorite quotes: It takes less *time *to *do* a thing *right*, than it does to explain why you did it *wrong. Easier said than done, but a worthy goal nonetheless.* Jake (Ocaasi) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:15 AM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, For what it's worth, this didn't get sent out to everyone. I was a bureaucrat and administrator, and have the most edits on that wiki (afaik?), and wasn't notified. Like Huib, I was also in the batch of blog moderator removals and wasn't notified about that either. I'm not very active anymore, so it's not really a huge deal, but it's still bad form to have not gotten any kind of notification at all. -- Casey Brown (Cbrown1023) caseybrown.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
(Inline comments most likely, So shoot me) On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org wrote: … But, my understanding is also that occasionally volunteers have overridden decisions made by staff on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki. I don't think that's ever been a huge problem: … Can you expand on this? I haven't really involved in foundationwiki and I'm not going to go check all the edits for this, But this seems like a kindly odd-shaped argument in my view. (The only time I was involved with a staff-vol spat on wmfwiki, is when the staff member decided the to need to take it to another wiki and then onto IRC as well, where I and others had to bug staff members to find out whom they were reporting to) I highly doubt volunteers are just randomly undoing edits of staff just because, We should be looking at the underlining issues behind this, with what they are trying to fix and improving the workflow of staff and volunteers. Just /randomly/ revoking seems counter-proactive and detrimental to this. … So I would say this: This decision is not about the community versus the WMF. This decision is about the WMF staff, and making it possible for them to do their work on the WMF wiki with some reasonable degree of efficiency and effectiveness. How many staff members that have jobs that rely on editing foundationwiki? I did a quick scan of the last ~1000 or so edits and really couldn't see any examples that stood out, If a volunteer changes a staff edit, Yes it should be looked at but there is generally a good reason (I've seen plently of staff members editing other wikis that are clueless about the wiki world and people have been fixing up their edits), And just removing admin rights doesn't seem to have anything to do with that at all, Because the volunteers can still edit (afaik the only rights they really loose are delete and protect now) … This decision clarifies roles-and-responsibilities… Not really, It was done randomly and at the end of a Friday when most of the foundation stops working for the weekend, with lack of meaningful communication to those involved (or in some cases, communication at al), Personally it leaves more questions than anything. … Personally, I feel like we're moving into a period now in which things are getting clearer. We don't pay staff to edit the projects: I know at least one staff on a project, that has a bit to do with there work, and has been directed to append staff to all their edit summaries. -Crazed ramblings out, Peachey ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
There's been a long-term conflict with volunteers staff on wikimediafoundation.org. As a user, I understand. Each staff member likes to keep everything their way. They frequently revert changes (take a look at the discussion and user talk pages, especially for MZMcBride) on 'staff authority'. This is a logical next step against these users (most likely MZ) so there's no conflict. Is this a bad thing? Most likely not. Is the reason behind it a bad thing? Yes. On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 4:06 PM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: (Inline comments most likely, So shoot me) On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org wrote: … But, my understanding is also that occasionally volunteers have overridden decisions made by staff on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki. I don't think that's ever been a huge problem: … Can you expand on this? I haven't really involved in foundationwiki and I'm not going to go check all the edits for this, But this seems like a kindly odd-shaped argument in my view. (The only time I was involved with a staff-vol spat on wmfwiki, is when the staff member decided the to need to take it to another wiki and then onto IRC as well, where I and others had to bug staff members to find out whom they were reporting to) I highly doubt volunteers are just randomly undoing edits of staff just because, We should be looking at the underlining issues behind this, with what they are trying to fix and improving the workflow of staff and volunteers. Just /randomly/ revoking seems counter-proactive and detrimental to this. … So I would say this: This decision is not about the community versus the WMF. This decision is about the WMF staff, and making it possible for them to do their work on the WMF wiki with some reasonable degree of efficiency and effectiveness. How many staff members that have jobs that rely on editing foundationwiki? I did a quick scan of the last ~1000 or so edits and really couldn't see any examples that stood out, If a volunteer changes a staff edit, Yes it should be looked at but there is generally a good reason (I've seen plently of staff members editing other wikis that are clueless about the wiki world and people have been fixing up their edits), And just removing admin rights doesn't seem to have anything to do with that at all, Because the volunteers can still edit (afaik the only rights they really loose are delete and protect now) … This decision clarifies roles-and-responsibilities… Not really, It was done randomly and at the end of a Friday when most of the foundation stops working for the weekend, with lack of meaningful communication to those involved (or in some cases, communication at al), Personally it leaves more questions than anything. … Personally, I feel like we're moving into a period now in which things are getting clearer. We don't pay staff to edit the projects: I know at least one staff on a project, that has a bit to do with there work, and has been directed to append staff to all their edit summaries. -Crazed ramblings out, Peachey ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
If the conflict was primarily with MZMcBride (which seems to be the case), then it was a bit cowardly to overhaul the entire scheme on the site in order to avoid telling him to knock it off. On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Mono monom...@gmail.com wrote: There's been a long-term conflict with volunteers staff on wikimediafoundation.org. As a user, I understand. Each staff member likes to keep everything their way. They frequently revert changes (take a look at the discussion and user talk pages, especially for MZMcBride) on 'staff authority'. This is a logical next step against these users (most likely MZ) so there's no conflict. Is this a bad thing? Most likely not. Is the reason behind it a bad thing? Yes. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Casey Brown wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:15 AM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, For what it's worth, this didn't get sent out to everyone. I was a bureaucrat and administrator, and have the most edits on that wiki (afaik?), and wasn't notified. Like Huib, I was also in the batch of blog moderator removals and wasn't notified about that either. I'm left a little speechless by this. I've always considered my values to be largely aligned with Wikimedia's, but more and more, I find myself distanced from it. I don't really want to be associated with people who can't treat volunteers with basic respect and dignity. Ultimately, like every other volunteer, I have to evaluate whether my time is better spent elsewhere. It's a really sad day for Wikimedia. You and many others who were summarily stripped of their user rights were integral to building that wiki and you deserve to be recognized and appreciated, not thrown out on a whim without notice or warning. Sue talks so much about stewardship, but this apparently includes anointing a ruler of the wiki who isn't capable of caring out her own commands. What does this say about the stewardship of the wiki? Meanwhile the questions about who will actually keep the site running go unanswered. For people like Gayle and Philippe to privately collude and then fire us at the end of the day on a Friday like we're disgruntled employees was pretty bad. (Both of whom seemed to have been in such a rush to act, but now are mysteriously too busy to participate in the community mailing list discussion about their actions.) Watching Erik and Sue try to defend their actions has been even more painful to watch. But it's long-time community members who know that this isn't right and who have chosen to not say anything that are bothering me the most. It's unsurprising that you and many others aren't very active anymore. :-/ You're so much better than they deserve. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Nathan wrote: If the conflict was primarily with MZMcBride (which seems to be the case), then it was a bit cowardly to overhaul the entire scheme on the site in order to avoid telling him to knock it off. What'd I do? MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:07 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Mono monom...@gmail.com wrote: There's been a long-term conflict with volunteers staff on wikimediafoundation.org. As a user, I understand. Each staff member likes to keep everything their way. They frequently revert changes (take a look at the discussion and user talk pages, especially for MZMcBride) on 'staff authority'. This is a logical next step against these users (most likely MZ) so there's no conflict. Is this a bad thing? Most likely not. Is the reason behind it a bad thing? Yes. Nathan wrote: If the conflict was primarily with MZMcBride (which seems to be the case), then it was a bit cowardly to overhaul the entire scheme on the site in order to avoid telling him to knock it off. What'd I do? MZMcBride MZMcBride, when I originally wrote this I was referencing nothing in particular. I was just observing a pattern of reversions and conflicts between you, me, staff others. Looking at the history of your talk page on wmfwiki (and mine), this can be found. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
Wow, this was definitely a huge brick they dropped there... It seems, the WMF needs to hire someone (a diplomat) to counsel them about actions towards the volunteers. (Seriously!) Well, and when we are at it, the volunteer community might need a diplomat, too, one who counsels them about actions and role of the WMF, before they start complaining about any of it. :) Anyway, nothing would have been lost if Gayle had written to the folks a few weeks before the actual action was performed, informing that this is the plan and why. It's not necessary, WMF owns the page and can do just about everything there, but just for politeness it would have been nice. And yes, the email that - seemingly selectively - got sent out was not really diplomatic, either, it sounds much like thanks, bye!. Or was there any sort of emergency that made an immediate action indispensable? (A soon explanation by Gayle would certainly be helpful there.) Th. 2013/5/12 Casey Brown li...@caseybrown.org On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:15 AM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote: This is the email that got sent out to everyone, For what it's worth, this didn't get sent out to everyone. I was a bureaucrat and administrator, and have the most edits on that wiki (afaik?), and wasn't notified. Like Huib, I was also in the batch of blog moderator removals and wasn't notified about that either. I'm not very active anymore, so it's not really a huge deal, but it's still bad form to have not gotten any kind of notification at all. -- Casey Brown (Cbrown1023) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Go away, community (from WMF wiki at least)
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Thomas Goldammer tho...@gmail.com wrote: Wow, this was definitely a huge brick they dropped there... It seems, the WMF needs to hire someone (a diplomat) to counsel them about actions towards the volunteers. (Seriously!) Or was there any sort of emergency that made an immediate action indispensable? (A soon explanation by Gayle would certainly be helpful there.) Th. There was no emergency. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l