Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2006-02-16 Thread Dylan Oliver
 will lend you money but your self and your mother. So 
earn your money to fund your business, its the only way you are going to get it. 
And its going to cost you money. The small dollar business only last for a 
little while, the time that you have a few customers and you can do everything 
your self, without a pay roll, when you are willing to make sacrifices, and its 
fun to do so. But employees don't work for free, nor do they or there wives 
share that vison of unconditional loyalty without the montey coming in for long 
hours worked, they don't have the same high standard as you, because its not 
their business its yours. When you get to the stage of employing all the rules 
change. And thats when businesses start to realize the difficulties in running a 
business. Staying a one man shop no longer is an option because support of 
your client base is already more than one person can handle. But because ou 
undersold your services, there isn;t enough money to pay the salaries to hire 
thepeople to support the clients. and you go out of business. 


The most important stage of your business is the 
business plan and that starts way before yuor first hire. And then once you 
start growing you learn that everything in your business plan was hog wash. The 
model of 100 new subs a month ends up being 2 new subs a month because there 
were sales barriers you weren't aware of. You learn the huge flock of customers 
you got on the first month, was because they were the few needy customers that 
were easy to access. But then you learn that you need to market to get 
custeomrs, you learn that the marketing ends up costing more than your 
equipment. And once again you go out of business. 

Your mission when you start out, before you make 
all your hires, is to prove every detail of your business plan valid. 
Design a formula that guarantees you can make a certain number of sales within a 
time period. You need constants in your model. If you can only consistently sell 
5 subs a month, that s OK, its a constant, you can make guaranteed business 
plans with constants. 

Sorry for the rant, but the biggest mistake I see 
in this business is when the operator doesn't realize the importance of 
sales. If your name is not on the job description, its a problem. 



Tom DeReggiRapidDSL  Wireless, Inc

IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

  - Original Message - 
  
From: 
  Brian 
  Rohrbacher 
  To: 
WISPA General List 
  Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 9:14 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an 
  investor?
  I 
  am looking into getting two people to help. One install guy and one 
  sales guy, both on commission. Then I can be the guy who grows the 
  network to keep up, do site surveys, tower work/deals, and paper work. 
  Ok plan or no??Charles Wu wrote: 
  Just a general word of advice...the biggest pitfall/doom of most startups isnot opportunity, but rather TOO MUCH opportunity...
Watch cash flow closely, and don't bite off more than you can chew-Charles---WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.comAugust 15-17, 2005-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Tom DeReggiSent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 7:53 PM
To: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?Thats a great way to start. Congradulations.Tom DeReggiRapidDSL  Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
- Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgSent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:20 AMSubject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?
  
I just have to find someone to do installs.  I have as many waiting to behooked up as I have hooked up.  It's there for the taking, but I can't take
  
it!  The search for help has started.Tom DeReggi wrote:
  Most ISPs shared that plan. But it rarely works that way, when you wantto grow your business.Tom DeReggiRapidDSL  Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
- Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgSent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?  
I plan to be debt free in a year, so I hope to be ok.  Everyone all paidoff and ready to roll.Matt Liotta wrote:
  I wouldn't worry about it since the way you did it put the investors atrisk more so than you. There is a better way to do it and before your company gets too successful you may want to visit a lawyer and get 
things cleaned up.-MattBrian Rohrbacher wrote:  
Just typed up something on the laptop that said, I owe you thismuch, and we both signed it.  Not fancy, but a little better than an oral agreement.  I won't miss a payment and will pay them back if it 
takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs.  Missing payments is not an  

  

  
option.  Only if I'm

Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-29 Thread Brian Rohrbacher
Title: Message




I can usually make money from day 1 on install.  Install fee + 1st
month almost always covers the cost of my hardware cost.  I own the
radio.  Gas, sales, ADs, and other stuff is not factered.  What kind of
ROI do you guys see?  i know some people wait 6 months.

Brian

Tom DeReggi wrote:

  
  
  
  Well if you hire a $30,000 a month
guy, you now have an expense. Divided by 240 working days that $125 a
day or $2500 a month.
  But that doesn't include all the
other expenses such as taxes, management, time to do accounting related
to his employment, expenses assoicated to his time. Before you know it
you'll be paying for gas and vehicle repairs, etc.  If you gave a free
install, targeted a 1 month cash flow positive business, @ $35 a month,
you'd need to do 3 installs a day just to pay the salary initially. 
However, at the end of the month, you'd never need to do another
install to pay that salary. The problem is that rarely happens, he wont
get three done a day and you probably won't get a commitment to start 3
a day either.  So the question is how much capitol do you have and how
many do you NEED to make a day.   If you have $15,000 in capitol
allocated for tech salaries, then  
  you technically could survive with 1
install every other day, and in six months, your salary capitol would
be gone, but his salary would be covered by the monthly fees you were
receiving.  But that would mean 100% of your profit went to the
installer.  But that wouldn't happen, as you have to buy radios, pay
phone bills, you pay your self, etc.   The best bet is to have a
business model that will allow you to charge an installtion fee that
covers the true installation fee. Those markets are hard to find. But
if you can its a winner.  The lowest we go on installation charges is
$200, but we collect $500 from 95% of our subscribers.  But our volume
is lower because of it.  
   
  Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
   
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Brian Rohrbacher 
To:
WISPA
General List 
Sent:
Monday, August 29, 2005 1:17 PM
Subject:
Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Ok, well, I trust this company.  The have experience doing wireless
install, and warranty for 90 days.  I posted the proposed agreement on
the paid list.  They told me horror stories of 8 hr installs and and
the other guy not having the authentication ready so they could not
even do the install.  I have an old retired friend who may work for
50-75 a day on call.  I have another friend REALLY SMART and can CLIMB
LIKE A MONKEY who has lots of computer experience and even some
programming.  Knows macs really well and would pick up wireless like a
piece of cake.  He is looking for 30k and insurance.  How many $35 a
month subs do I need to hire a 30k plus insurance kind of guy.  What
needs to be on his resume?  As you consider this, remember.  I have NO
personal expenses.  I live with my parents, no rent, house payment,
food, ect...  I get no paycheck.  The nearest thing I get for money is
gas in the truck and taking the girlfriend out every 2 weeks.  My
income goes farther.

Brian

Tom DeReggi wrote:

  
  Brian,
   
  By sales guy, I meant someone who will knock on doors 
   
  Thats a big difference. But I'd
call that a marketing expense.
   
  As for $95 installer  The
catch is wether you can find an installer that guarantees the work.  If
he will go out to fix his mistakes for free and guarantee his work, you
will make out good for only $95.  Make sure you require him to submit
digital pictures of finished work as a criteria to get paid, no matter
how good a friend.  What many forget is the cost of management.
Management labor can cost more than the actually installtion labor.  By
subcontracting out you are also subing out the management headache, so
for only $95 its golden.  Subbing is wise when you are starting out,
because you'd have many days where employees would be on the clock with
nothing to do, if you employed.  The problem is that employment laws
prevent you from holding a employee responsible for productivit and
results, so to employ, you are going to have to manage them to make
sure things get done on schedule. OTherwise the 2 hour install turns
into 2 days.  Finding a good installer is anothger story. I'd never be
able to find it in my market for that low. Subcontract rates are closer
to $400-$500 an install for the quality we are installing.  However, my
advise is opposite to what I actually do. We do not sub out, and
only employ. We decided quality and reputation was more important. But
I'm no where close to accomplishing the install goal of under $95. It
costs us half that just for gas and truck expenses. 
   
  One of the bigest mistakes you
could make is under estimate that cost. Because if you do, every
customer you install will put you in a worse financial position. So
estimate high

RE: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-26 Thread Rick Smith
Title: Message



welcome to the real world. That million will 
turn into 3 million soon, and your schedule will turn into 4 weeks behind, and 
word of mouth will start spreading that you're not 
responsive get out and install on your 
own.

This, coming from a guy that subbed out intalls at $100 
each until today. By reading these posts, I'm now convinced that 
it's all coming back in-house.


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian 
RohrbacherSent: Friday, August 26, 2005 1:28 AMTo: WISPA 
General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an 
investor?
Because I have not left the "office" my living room, in 3 days 
because things keep coming my way. Computers, paperwork, a million 
calls. No customer support issues, just a million things I can't seem to 
catch up. And now I'm a few weeks behind on installs. I don't like 
being behind.BrianJohnnyO wrote: 

  
  Brian - why pay out that $95.00 when YOU can go do the install in 2 
  hours time ? Heck 3 installs = 1 new install paid for  Sorry - guess Im 
  just cheap and work too much - I suppose we all grow our business differently. 
  I worked 2 full time jobs for the 1st 8 months we were in the WISP game on top 
  of building the WISP..
  
  JohnnyO
  
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Brian RohrbacherSent: Thursday, August 25, 
2005 11:57 PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: 
    [WISPA] Taking on an investor?Let me clarify. By 
sales guy, I meant someone who will knock on doors and say "here, this is 
available in the area, call for details" hand them a door hanger and 
leave. I pay my subs a free month for refferals. I'd give the 
"door hanger guy" the same, $35 per "sale" unless they were too good at 
it :) Then they would call, and I'd make the "sale". The 
"install guy" is a company who I trust. They will do installs for $95 
a head. I have some more details (4 line paragraph) on my ROI if 
anyone wants to comment, hit me off list and I'll forward my ROI sheet to 
you for comment.Thanks,BrianTom DeReggi wrote: 

  

  No. You must do the sales. Trust that to 
  someone else, and you will fail. It means that you may not be able 
  to do the fun stuff like you thought you'd be doing, but its the reality 
  of a successful business. UNtil you set the stage of how the sales process 
  will go, and set the example of success in selling, it'll be hard to find 
  a sales guy willing to work on commission or that will be worth a 
  darn. I found that you can't run a WISP with only three people, 
  although many have proven me wrong. It takes one to sell. It takes 
  one to install. It takes one tech in the office to assist the installer 
  with testing and router provisioning. ( a tech can't get to APsand 
  routers, when thelink isn't up yet. A lot of things will come 
  up, like which sector do you connect to when its near both of them? You 
  don't always know how to configure it until you are onsite. Then 
  whathappens whem the installer needs help, such as someone to hold 
  the ladderfor a steep pitched roof? Then whose gonna answer 
  the phone when the insude tech goes onsite to help the installer? 
  You need that 4th person! Then whose gonna do you book keeping? You 
  learn that why should you be doing it, when you time is best spent 
  selling? You surely aren't going to have the techs do your book keeping? 
  When you start to go after the bigger clients, if there isn't someone to 
  answer the phone for every sales request and tech support issue, they get 
  scared and go with the higher staffed more professional competitor. 
  At first you start by using your cell phone. But then you learn that you 
  can never get a darn thing done when you are answering your cell phone the 
  whole day. So you stop answering it while on sales meetings. Then the 
  callers have outages, amnd have already signed up with the competitor by 
  the time tyou call them back hours later because they thought you went out 
  of business. So before you know it you need 6 people minimum. Then 
  you look at your payroll that just jumped to $20,000 a month. Then it 
  takes you a few months to get things togeather like marketing material. 
  Then everyone is waiting on you. Then you have a burn rate. You learn that 
  the $20,000 capitol that you had wasn't going to last the first 
  month. Then you start getting subscribers, but theirs no money left 
  to buy radios. By the time you get the radios three weeks later, the 
  customers got tired of waiting and went with the competitor,so your 
  staff has nothing to do, and you just burn through another $20,000 the 
  next month. Etc. Thats the point most businesses fai

Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-25 Thread Tom DeReggi


Most ISPs shared that plan. But it rarely works that way, when you want to 
grow your business.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc

IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

- Original Message - 
From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


I plan to be debt free in a year, so I hope to be ok.  Everyone all paid 
off and ready to roll.


Matt Liotta wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it since the way you did it put the investors at 
risk more so than you. There is a better way to do it and before your 
company gets too successful you may want to visit a lawyer and get things 
cleaned up.


-Matt

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

Just typed up something on the laptop that said, I owe you this 
much, and we both signed it.  Not fancy, but a little better than an 
oral agreement.  I won't miss a payment and will pay them back if it 
takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs.  Missing payments is not an 
option.  Only if I'm laid up in the hospital.  Personal guaranteed? 
Well, I told them I will pay it back...  I know the agreement leaves a 
lot open, but I trust these 4 people.  Anyway, so they are not 
investors.  Lastly, lets just leave me be about this :)  I'd rather not 
try to defend a million questions about what if this and what if that. 
It is what I did and it is done.


Charles Wu wrote:


that would be a loan
what type of collateral do they have? or what happens if you miss a 
payment?

have you personally guaranteed the money?
 -Charles

---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Rohrbacher
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 10:20 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Well, I guess we would call them loans as I have all control. 
Correct me if I am wrong.  They gave me money at a fixed rate. Loans or 
investments?


Charles Wu wrote:


well...in determing their dumbness (assuming you're willing to
divulge this information) - what sort of investment / equity
share / control do your investors have?
 I mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does everyone 
have

an equal share? (which is a different story all together) or
does 1 single person have a majority share and the other 4 are
minority partners
 -Charles
 ---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian
Rohrbacher
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Well, I guess I found four dumb people that got me
started.  All my start up funds came from 4 people.  All
four were subs from a previous WISP I  owned,  (before my
partner took everything over and left me out in the cold) they 
all said, I want you providing service, not the other

guy.  So here I am.  7 months in and going strong.  Oh,
almost forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is
just my opinion.  ;-)   I think dumb investors
are great!
 Charles Wu wrote:


sure
 a passive minority equity position stake in a 
privately

held company is worthless, as legally, the person with the
majority stake can make 100% of the decisions (in terms of
purchasing, spending, cash distribution, etc)
 think about it, if it was your money, would you be 
willing

to just invest it into a company when the majority
partner can do whatever he/she wants to and you have no
recourse?
 -Charles
---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of
*Dylan Oliver
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Charles,

would you expand on that?

On 8/22/05, *Charles Wu* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

FWIW...no invester (other than friends and family)
worth their salt will be
willing to invest capital into the company for a
minority position, as that
is basically a sure way

Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-25 Thread John Scrivner
Consider contracting through the local Dish/DirecTV installers. It can 
save you a bunch of headaches and will cost less than employees in the end.

Scriv


Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

I just have to find someone to do installs.  I have as many waiting to 
be hooked up as I have hooked up.  It's there for the taking, but I 
can't take it!  The search for help has started.


Tom DeReggi wrote:



Most ISPs shared that plan. But it rarely works that way, when you 
want to grow your business.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc

IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

- Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


I plan to be debt free in a year, so I hope to be ok.  Everyone all 
paid off and ready to roll.


Matt Liotta wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it since the way you did it put the 
investors at risk more so than you. There is a better way to do it 
and before your company gets too successful you may want to visit a 
lawyer and get things cleaned up.


-Matt

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

Just typed up something on the laptop that said, I owe you this 
much, and we both signed it.  Not fancy, but a little better than 
an oral agreement.  I won't miss a payment and will pay them back 
if it takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs.  Missing payments 
is not an option.  Only if I'm laid up in the hospital.  Personal 
guaranteed? Well, I told them I will pay it back...  I know the 
agreement leaves a lot open, but I trust these 4 people.  Anyway, 
so they are not investors.  Lastly, lets just leave me be about 
this :)  I'd rather not try to defend a million questions about 
what if this and what if that. It is what I did and it is done.


Charles Wu wrote:


that would be a loan
what type of collateral do they have? or what happens if you miss 
a payment?

have you personally guaranteed the money?
 -Charles

---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian 
Rohrbacher

*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 10:20 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Well, I guess we would call them loans as I have all control. 
Correct me if I am wrong.  They gave me money at a fixed rate. 
Loans or investments?


Charles Wu wrote:

well...in determing their dumbness (assuming you're 
willing to

divulge this information) - what sort of investment / equity
share / control do your investors have?
 I mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does 
everyone have

an equal share? (which is a different story all together) or
does 1 single person have a majority share and the other 4 are
minority partners
 -Charles
 ---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian
Rohrbacher
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Well, I guess I found four dumb people that got me
started.  All my start up funds came from 4 people.  All
four were subs from a previous WISP I  owned,  (before my
partner took everything over and left me out in the 
cold) they all said, I want you providing service, not the other

guy.  So here I am.  7 months in and going strong.  Oh,
almost forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is
just my opinion.  ;-)   I think dumb 
investors

are great!
 Charles Wu wrote:


sure
 a passive minority equity position stake in a 
privately

held company is worthless, as legally, the person with the
majority stake can make 100% of the decisions (in terms of
purchasing, spending, cash distribution, etc)
 think about it, if it was your money, would 
you be willing

to just invest it into a company when the majority
partner can do whatever he/she wants to and you have no
recourse?
 -Charles
---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of
*Dylan Oliver
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Charles

Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-25 Thread John Scrivner
Wise words for sure. There is more than any one can do by oneself out 
there. The opportunities can run you broke if you chase them all.

Scriv


Charles Wu wrote:


Just a general word of advice...the biggest pitfall/doom of most startups is
not opportunity, but rather TOO MUCH opportunity...

Watch cash flow closely, and don't bite off more than you can chew

-Charles

---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 7:53 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Thats a great way to start. Congradulations.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc

IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
- Original Message - 
From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


 

I just have to find someone to do installs.  I have as many waiting to 
be

hooked up as I have hooked up.  It's there for the taking, but I can't take
   



 


it!  The search for help has started.

Tom DeReggi wrote:

   

Most ISPs shared that plan. But it rarely works that way, when you 
want

to grow your business.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc

IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

- Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


 

I plan to be debt free in a year, so I hope to be ok.  Everyone all 
paid

off and ready to roll.

Matt Liotta wrote:

   

I wouldn't worry about it since the way you did it put the 
investors at
risk more so than you. There is a better way to do it and before your 
company gets too successful you may want to visit a lawyer and get 
things cleaned up.


-Matt

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

 


Just typed up something on the laptop that said, I owe you this
much, and we both signed it.  Not fancy, but a little better than an 
oral agreement.  I won't miss a payment and will pay them back if it 
takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs.  Missing payments is not an
   



 

option.  Only if I'm laid up in the hospital.  Personal guaranteed? 
Well, I told them I will pay it back...  I know the agreement leaves a
   



 

lot open, but I trust these 4 people.  Anyway, so they are not 
investors.  Lastly, lets just leave me be about this :)  I'd rather 
not try to defend a million questions about what if this and what if 
that. It is what I did and it is done.


Charles Wu wrote:

   


that would be a loan
what type of collateral do they have? or what happens if you miss 
a

payment?
have you personally guaranteed the money?
-Charles

---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

   -Original Message-
   *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian
Rohrbacher
   *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 10:20 PM
   *To:* WISPA General List
   *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

   Well, I guess we would call them loans as I have all control.
Correct me if I am wrong.  They gave me money at a fixed rate. Loans 
or investments?


   Charles Wu wrote:

 


   well...in determing their dumbness (assuming you're willing to
   divulge this information) - what sort of investment / equity
   share / control do your investors have?
I mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does 
everyone

have
   an equal share? (which is a different story all together) or
   does 1 single person have a majority share and the other 4 are
   minority partners
-Charles
---
   WISPNOG Park City, UT
   http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
   August 15-17, 2005

   -Original Message-
   *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian
   Rohrbacher
   *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 PM
   *To:* WISPA General List
   *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

   Well, I guess I found four dumb people that got me
   started.  All my start up funds came from 4 people.  All
   four were subs from a previous WISP I  owned,  (before my
   partner took everything over and left me out in the 
cold)

they all said, I want you providing service, not the other
   guy.  So here I am.  7 months in and going strong.  Oh,
   almost forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is
   just my opinion.  ;-)   I think dumb investors
   are great!
Charles Wu wrote:

   


   sure
a passive minority equity position stake in a
privately
   held company

Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-25 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler
Don't take this the wrong way BUT --- if you spent less time on the
Internet you would soon get those people connected.

Been there, done that.
Lonnie

On 8/25/05, Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I just have to find someone to do installs.  I have as many waiting to
 be hooked up as I have hooked up.  It's there for the taking, but I
 can't take it!  The search for help has started.
 
 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 
 
  Most ISPs shared that plan. But it rarely works that way, when you
  want to grow your business.
 
 
  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
  - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?
 
 
  I plan to be debt free in a year, so I hope to be ok.  Everyone all
  paid off and ready to roll.
 
  Matt Liotta wrote:
 
  I wouldn't worry about it since the way you did it put the investors
  at risk more so than you. There is a better way to do it and before
  your company gets too successful you may want to visit a lawyer and
  get things cleaned up.
 
  -Matt
 
  Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
 
  Just typed up something on the laptop that said, I owe you this
  much, and we both signed it.  Not fancy, but a little better than
  an oral agreement.  I won't miss a payment and will pay them back
  if it takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs.  Missing payments
  is not an option.  Only if I'm laid up in the hospital.  Personal
  guaranteed? Well, I told them I will pay it back...  I know the
  agreement leaves a lot open, but I trust these 4 people.  Anyway,
  so they are not investors.  Lastly, lets just leave me be about
  this :)  I'd rather not try to defend a million questions about
  what if this and what if that. It is what I did and it is done.
 
  Charles Wu wrote:
 
  that would be a loan
  what type of collateral do they have? or what happens if you miss
  a payment?
  have you personally guaranteed the money?
   -Charles
 
  ---
  WISPNOG Park City, UT
  http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
  August 15-17, 2005
 
  -Original Message-
  *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian
  Rohrbacher
  *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 10:20 PM
  *To:* WISPA General List
  *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?
 
  Well, I guess we would call them loans as I have all control.
  Correct me if I am wrong.  They gave me money at a fixed rate.
  Loans or investments?
 
  Charles Wu wrote:
 
  well...in determing their dumbness (assuming you're willing to
  divulge this information) - what sort of investment / equity
  share / control do your investors have?
   I mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does
  everyone have
  an equal share? (which is a different story all together) or
  does 1 single person have a majority share and the other 4 are
  minority partners
   -Charles
   ---
  WISPNOG Park City, UT
  http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
  August 15-17, 2005
 
  -Original Message-
  *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian
  Rohrbacher
  *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 PM
  *To:* WISPA General List
  *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?
 
  Well, I guess I found four dumb people that got me
  started.  All my start up funds came from 4 people.  All
  four were subs from a previous WISP I  owned,  (before my
  partner took everything over and left me out in the cold)
  they all said, I want you providing service, not the other
  guy.  So here I am.  7 months in and going strong.  Oh,
  almost forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is
  just my opinion.  ;-)   I think dumb investors
  are great!
   Charles Wu wrote:
 
  sure
   a passive minority equity position stake in a
  privately
  held company is worthless, as legally, the person with the
  majority stake can make 100% of the decisions (in terms of
  purchasing, spending, cash distribution, etc)
   think about it, if it was your money, would you
  be willing
  to just invest it into a company when the majority
  partner can do whatever he/she wants to and you have no
  recourse?
   -Charles
  ---
  WISPNOG Park City, UT
  http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
  August 15-17, 2005
 
  -Original Message-
  *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf

Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-25 Thread Brian Rohrbacher




There is a problem with that. :) I am very young and don't know a
lot. SO.I subscribe to about 5 lists, and read every post everyday
in the BBR WISP forums. If not for that, I would not know what I know
today. Remember. I have very little expenses (living with parents) I
pay gas, backhaul, insurance, network upkeep, cell phone, and payments
on loans. The way I see it, I can sacrifice a little income (sub it
out) so I have time to research. I've never used mikrotik, never
graphed or monitored bandwidth, and know very little about the Star OS
I use (Demarc Tech APs). It won't be long and I'll have 150 people on
my 6 meg by 600k DSL line. I feel that my time needs to be spent
learning how to do what I do (run a WISP), rather than being the "grunt
man". I have been a WISP "grunt man" for 2.5 years, and the WISP
"everything man" for 7 months now (crooked partner gone --just my
opinion) If I go along doing everything, I will wake up one day and
realize, I'm not ready for what I have. My plan is for me to get the
network ready for 100, 200, 300 subs while the sales and the install
guys actually get me there. I have a lot of learning to do to be able
to keep 100-300 people online smoothly. I don't by any means know
everything about installing and sales, but I know my weak spot is tech
knowledge (and spelling). I might as well pay people to do the stuff I
know, and go learn the stuff I don't know. It's kind of like paying to
learn, I never went to college so this is my college. I pay them to be
"grunts" as I am online (reading and researching) and at home learning
to run things like mikrotik and mrtg graphs. I'll also be doing the
paperwork, all tower climbs, tower deals, tech support, and computer
service (I get a 3-5 a week dropped off here from a $20 weekly ad) Yes,
I work on these as I am online. Trust me, if I knew everything, I'd be
out grunting, but there is too many years of technical knowledge I lack
to be out grunting. I have got to learn or I will get stuck when I
grow to a certain point. I'd be like, "shoot, I don't know how to run
this dual wan router and I'm out of bandwidth" A dual wan router would
do, but I'd really like to have mikrotik down by that point so I can
"do it right". Is my way of thinking in line with reality? I'm
not afraid to ask for help. So, what I am thinking is that if I don't
hire people, I'll have to pretty much stop work when I reach a certain
point to learn all the stuff to get on to the next step. Ok, I wrote
up a little response/question 4 hrs ago about my ROI and subscriber
acquisition cost, but I don't really want it archived forever. So if
your willing to take a look and send your thoughts my way, hit me up
off list. It is only about 1/3 as long as this. It's pretty short. 

Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

  Don't take this the wrong way BUT --- if you spent less time on the
Internet you would soon get those people connected.

Been there, done that.
Lonnie

On 8/25/05, Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
I just have to find someone to do installs.  I have as many waiting to
be hooked up as I have hooked up.  It's there for the taking, but I
can't take it!  The search for help has started.

Tom DeReggi wrote:



  Most ISPs shared that plan. But it rarely works that way, when you
want to grow your business.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc

IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

- Original Message - From: "Brian Rohrbacher"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


  
  
I plan to be debt free in a year, so I hope to be ok.  Everyone all
paid off and ready to roll.

Matt Liotta wrote:



  I wouldn't worry about it since the way you did it put the investors
at risk more so than you. There is a better way to do it and before
your company gets too successful you may want to visit a lawyer and
get things cleaned up.

-Matt

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

  
  
Just typed up something on the laptop that said, "I owe you "this"
much", and we both signed it.  Not fancy, but a little better than
an oral agreement.  I won't miss a payment and will pay them back
if it takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs.  Missing payments
is not an option.  Only if I'm laid up in the hospital.  Personal
guaranteed? Well, I told them I will pay it back...  I know the
agreement leaves a lot open, but I trust these 4 people.  Anyway,
so they are not investors.  Lastly, lets just leave me be about
this :)  I'd rather not try to defend a million questions about
what if this and what if that. It is what I did and it is done.

Charles Wu wrote:



  that would be a loan
what type of collateral do they have? or what happens if you miss
a payment?
have you 

RE: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-25 Thread JohnnyO
Title: Message



Brian 
- why pay out that $95.00 when YOU can go do the install in 2 hours time ? Heck 
3 installs = 1 new install paid for  Sorry - guess Im just cheap and work 
too much - I suppose we all grow our business differently. I worked 2 full time 
jobs for the 1st 8 months we were in the WISP game on top of building the 
WISP..

JohnnyO

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  Brian RohrbacherSent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:57 
  PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on 
  an investor?Let me clarify. By sales guy, I meant 
  someone who will knock on doors and say "here, this is available in the area, 
  call for details" hand them a door hanger and leave. I pay my subs a 
  free month for refferals. I'd give the "door hanger guy" the same, $35 
  per "sale" unless they were too good at it :) Then they would 
  call, and I'd make the "sale". The "install guy" is a company who I 
  trust. They will do installs for $95 a head. I have some more 
  details (4 line paragraph) on my ROI if anyone wants to comment, hit me off 
  list and I'll forward my ROI sheet to you for 
  comment.Thanks,BrianTom DeReggi wrote: 
  



No. You must do the sales. Trust that to 
someone else, and you will fail. It means that you may not be able to 
do the fun stuff like you thought you'd be doing, but its the reality of a 
successful business. UNtil you set the stage of how the sales process will 
go, and set the example of success in selling, it'll be hard to find a sales 
guy willing to work on commission or that will be worth a darn. I 
found that you can't run a WISP with only three people, although many have 
proven me wrong. It takes one to sell. It takes one to install. It 
takes one tech in the office to assist the installer with testing and router 
provisioning. ( a tech can't get to APsand routers, when thelink 
isn't up yet. A lot of things will come up, like which sector do you 
connect to when its near both of them? You don't always know how to 
configure it until you are onsite. Then whathappens whem the 
installer needs help, such as someone to hold the ladderfor a steep 
pitched roof? Then whose gonna answer the phone when the insude tech 
goes onsite to help the installer? You need that 4th person! 
Then whose gonna do you book keeping? You learn that why should you be doing 
it, when you time is best spent selling? You surely aren't going to have the 
techs do your book keeping? When you start to go after the bigger clients, 
if there isn't someone to answer the phone for every sales request and tech 
support issue, they get scared and go with the higher staffed more 
professional competitor. At first you start by using your cell phone. 
But then you learn that you can never get a darn thing done when you are 
answering your cell phone the whole day. So you stop answering it while on 
sales meetings. Then the callers have outages, amnd have already signed up 
with the competitor by the time tyou call them back hours later because they 
thought you went out of business. So before you know it you need 6 
people minimum. Then you look at your payroll that just jumped to $20,000 a 
month. Then it takes you a few months to get things togeather like marketing 
material. Then everyone is waiting on you. Then you have a burn rate. You 
learn that the $20,000 capitol that you had wasn't going to last the first 
month. Then you start getting subscribers, but theirs no money left to 
buy radios. By the time you get the radios three weeks later, the customers 
got tired of waiting and went with the competitor,so your staff has 
nothing to do, and you just burn through another $20,000 the next month. 
Etc. Thats the point most businesses fail.

So my advise is... Start out with two people. 
And use your cell phone for all correspondance.Avoid every technical 
detail thatthe tech mentality is enticing you to get involved with, 
that will just kill your time, no matter how much its tempting you. Go 
sell today. Go like that as long as you can, until you have no other choice 
but to hire.Then hire ALL the people you need and play to 
win.IF you under hire, you will just spin your wheel's never getting 
anything done but managing everyone, and sales stop, but salaries don't, and 
you go out of business.

Outsource every technical detail upfront, 
EXPECIALLY MAIL. Your only job can be sales and management. What will 
determine wether you will succeed is wether you can keep your time allocated 
more towards sales than management. Management duties will tend to 
monopolize your time, because they have to be done, and you will continue to 
loose 

Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-25 Thread Brian Rohrbacher
Title: Message




Because I have not left the "office" my living room, in 3 days because
things keep coming my way. Computers, paperwork, a million calls. No
customer support issues, just a million things I can't seem to catch
up. And now I'm a few weeks behind on installs. I don't like being
behind.

Brian

JohnnyO wrote:

  
  
  
  Brian - why pay out that $95.00 when YOU can go
do the install in 2 hours time ? Heck 3 installs = 1 new install paid
for  Sorry - guess Im just cheap and work too much - I suppose we
all grow our business differently. I worked 2 full time jobs for the
1st 8 months we were in the WISP game on top of building the WISP..
  
  JohnnyO
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Brian
Rohrbacher
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Let me clarify. By sales guy, I meant someone who will knock on doors
and say "here, this is available in the area, call for details" hand
them a door hanger and leave. I pay my subs a free month for
refferals. I'd give the "door hanger guy" the same, $35 per "sale"
unless they were too good at it :) Then they would call, and I'd make
the "sale". The "install guy" is a company who I trust. They will do
installs for $95 a head. I have some more details (4 line paragraph)
on my ROI if anyone wants to comment, hit me off list and I'll forward
my ROI sheet to you for comment.


Thanks,
Brian


Tom DeReggi wrote:

  
  
  No. You must do the sales. Trust
that to someone else, and you will fail. It means that you may not be
able to do the fun stuff like you thought you'd be doing, but its the
reality of a successful business. UNtil you set the stage of how the
sales process will go, and set the example of success in selling, it'll
be hard to find a sales guy willing to work on commission or that will
be worth a darn. I found that you can't run a WISP with only three
people, although many have proven me wrong. It takes one to sell. It
takes one to install. It takes one tech in the office to assist the
installer with testing and router provisioning. ( a tech can't get to
APsand routers, when thelink isn't up yet. A lot of things will come
up, like which sector do you connect to when its near both of them? You
don't always know how to configure it until you are onsite. Then
whathappens whem the installer needs help, such as someone to hold the
ladderfor a steep pitched roof? Then whose gonna answer the phone
when the insude tech goes onsite to help the installer? You need that
4th person! Then whose gonna do you book keeping? You learn that why
should you be doing it, when you time is best spent selling? You surely
aren't going to have the techs do your book keeping? When you start to
go after the bigger clients, if there isn't someone to answer the phone
for every sales request and tech support issue, they get scared and go
with the higher staffed more professional competitor. At first you
start by using your cell phone. But then you learn that you can never
get a darn thing done when you are answering your cell phone the whole
day. So you stop answering it while on sales meetings. Then the callers
have outages, amnd have already signed up with the competitor by the
time tyou call them back hours later because they thought you went out
of business. So before you know it you need 6 people minimum. Then you
look at your payroll that just jumped to $20,000 a month. Then it takes
you a few months to get things togeather like marketing material. Then
everyone is waiting on you. Then you have a burn rate. You learn that
the $20,000 capitol that you had wasn't going to last the first month.
Then you start getting subscribers, but theirs no money left to buy
radios. By the time you get the radios three weeks later, the customers
got tired of waiting and went with the competitor,so your staff has
nothing to do, and you just burn through another $20,000 the next
month. Etc. Thats the point most businesses fail.
  
  So my advise is... Start out
with two people. And use your cell phone for all correspondance.Avoid
every technical detail thatthe tech mentality is enticing you to get
involved with, that will just kill your time, no matter how much its
tempting you. Go sell today. Go like that as long as you can, until
you have no other choice but to hire.Then hire ALL the people you
need and play to win.IF you under hire, you will just spin your
wheel's never getting anything done but managing everyone, and sales
stop, but salaries don't, and you go out of business.
  
  Outsource every technical detail
upfront, EXPECIALLY MAIL. Your only job can be sales and management.
What will determine wether you will succeed is wether you can keep your
time allocated more towards sales than management. Management

Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-24 Thread Matt Liotta
I wouldn't worry about it since the way you did it put the investors at 
risk more so than you. There is a better way to do it and before your 
company gets too successful you may want to visit a lawyer and get 
things cleaned up.


-Matt

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

Just typed up something on the laptop that said, I owe you this 
much, and we both signed it.  Not fancy, but a little better than an 
oral agreement.  I won't miss a payment and will pay them back if it 
takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs.  Missing payments is not an 
option.  Only if I'm laid up in the hospital.  Personal guaranteed?  
Well, I told them I will pay it back...  I know the agreement leaves a 
lot open, but I trust these 4 people.  Anyway, so they are not 
investors.  Lastly, lets just leave me be about this :)  I'd rather 
not try to defend a million questions about what if this and what if 
that.  It is what I did and it is done.


Charles Wu wrote:


that would be a loan
what type of collateral do they have? or what happens if you miss a 
payment?

have you personally guaranteed the money?
 
-Charles
 
 


---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Rohrbacher
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 10:20 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Well, I guess we would call them loans as I have all control. 
Correct me if I am wrong.  They gave me money at a fixed rate. 
Loans or investments?


Charles Wu wrote:


well...in determing their dumbness (assuming you're willing to
divulge this information) - what sort of investment / equity
share / control do your investors have?
 
I mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does everyone have

an equal share? (which is a different story all together) or
does 1 single person have a majority share and the other 4 are
minority partners
 
-Charles
 
 


---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian
Rohrbacher
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Well, I guess I found four dumb people that got me
started.  All my start up funds came from 4 people.  All
four were subs from a previous WISP I  owned,  (before my
partner took everything over and left me out in the cold) 
they all said, I want you providing service, not the other

guy.  So here I am.  7 months in and going strong.  Oh,
almost forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is
just my opinion.  ;-)   I think dumb investors
are great!
 
Charles Wu wrote:



sure
 
a passive minority equity position stake in a privately

held company is worthless, as legally, the person with the
majority stake can make 100% of the decisions (in terms of
purchasing, spending, cash distribution, etc)
 
think about it, if it was your money, would you be willing

to just invest it into a company when the majority
partner can do whatever he/she wants to and you have no
recourse?
 
-Charles
 


---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of
*Dylan Oliver
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Charles,

would you expand on that?

On 8/22/05, *Charles Wu* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

FWIW...no invester (other than friends and family)
worth their salt will be
willing to invest capital into the company for a
minority position, as that
is basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of
their money

That said, there is a fool born every day

-Charles


-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC 




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005

Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-24 Thread Brian Rohrbacher
I plan to be debt free in a year, so I hope to be ok.  Everyone all paid 
off and ready to roll.


Matt Liotta wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it since the way you did it put the investors 
at risk more so than you. There is a better way to do it and before 
your company gets too successful you may want to visit a lawyer and 
get things cleaned up.


-Matt

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

Just typed up something on the laptop that said, I owe you this 
much, and we both signed it.  Not fancy, but a little better than an 
oral agreement.  I won't miss a payment and will pay them back if it 
takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs.  Missing payments is not 
an option.  Only if I'm laid up in the hospital.  Personal 
guaranteed?  Well, I told them I will pay it back...  I know the 
agreement leaves a lot open, but I trust these 4 people.  Anyway, so 
they are not investors.  Lastly, lets just leave me be about this :)  
I'd rather not try to defend a million questions about what if this 
and what if that.  It is what I did and it is done.


Charles Wu wrote:


that would be a loan
what type of collateral do they have? or what happens if you miss a 
payment?

have you personally guaranteed the money?
 
-Charles
 
 


---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Rohrbacher
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 10:20 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Well, I guess we would call them loans as I have all control. 
Correct me if I am wrong.  They gave me money at a fixed rate. 
Loans or investments?


Charles Wu wrote:


well...in determing their dumbness (assuming you're willing to
divulge this information) - what sort of investment / equity
share / control do your investors have?
 I mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does everyone 
have

an equal share? (which is a different story all together) or
does 1 single person have a majority share and the other 4 are
minority partners
 -Charles
 
---

WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian
Rohrbacher
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Well, I guess I found four dumb people that got me
started.  All my start up funds came from 4 people.  All
four were subs from a previous WISP I  owned,  (before my
partner took everything over and left me out in the cold) 
they all said, I want you providing service, not the other

guy.  So here I am.  7 months in and going strong.  Oh,
almost forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is
just my opinion.  ;-)   I think dumb investors
are great!
 Charles Wu wrote:


sure
 a passive minority equity position stake in a 
privately

held company is worthless, as legally, the person with the
majority stake can make 100% of the decisions (in terms of
purchasing, spending, cash distribution, etc)
 think about it, if it was your money, would you 
be willing

to just invest it into a company when the majority
partner can do whatever he/she wants to and you have no
recourse?
 -Charles

---

WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of
*Dylan Oliver
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Charles,

would you expand on that?

On 8/22/05, *Charles Wu* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

FWIW...no invester (other than friends and family)
worth their salt will be
willing to invest capital into the company for a
minority position, as that
is basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of
their money

That said, there is a fool born every day

-Charles


-- Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC
 



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Checked by AVG Anti

Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-24 Thread Barry at Mutual Data
Hello Brian,

WHAT DEBT FREE You can't do that That will disrupt the
time space continuum thingee. Didn't you know ISP's are supposed to
not make money?

Get a grip man   :-)


Barry

Wednesday, August 24, 2005, 10:33:19 AM, you wrote:

BR I plan to be debt free in a year, so I hope to be ok.  Everyone all paid
BR off and ready to roll.

BR Matt Liotta wrote:

 I wouldn't worry about it since the way you did it put the investors
 at risk more so than you. There is a better way to do it and before
 your company gets too successful you may want to visit a lawyer and
 get things cleaned up.

 -Matt

 Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

 Just typed up something on the laptop that said, I owe you this
 much, and we both signed it.  Not fancy, but a little better than an
 oral agreement.  I won't miss a payment and will pay them back if it
 takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs.  Missing payments is not
 an option.  Only if I'm laid up in the hospital.  Personal 
 guaranteed?  Well, I told them I will pay it back...  I know the 
 agreement leaves a lot open, but I trust these 4 people.  Anyway, so
 they are not investors.  Lastly, lets just leave me be about this :)
 I'd rather not try to defend a million questions about what if this
 and what if that.  It is what I did and it is done.

 Charles Wu wrote:

 that would be a loan
 what type of collateral do they have? or what happens if you miss a
 payment?
 have you personally guaranteed the money?
  
 -Charles
  
  

 ---
 WISPNOG Park City, UT
 http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
 August 15-17, 2005

 -Original Message-
 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Rohrbacher
 *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 10:20 PM
 *To:* WISPA General List
 *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

 Well, I guess we would call them loans as I have all control.
 Correct me if I am wrong.  They gave me money at a fixed rate.
 Loans or investments?

 Charles Wu wrote:

 well...in determing their dumbness (assuming you're willing to
 divulge this information) - what sort of investment / equity
 share / control do your investors have?
  I mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does everyone
 have
 an equal share? (which is a different story all together) or
 does 1 single person have a majority share and the other 4 are
 minority partners
  -Charles
  
 ---
 WISPNOG Park City, UT
 http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
 August 15-17, 2005

 -Original Message-
 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian
 Rohrbacher
 *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 PM
 *To:* WISPA General List
 *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

 Well, I guess I found four dumb people that got me
 started.  All my start up funds came from 4 people.  All
 four were subs from a previous WISP I  owned,  (before my
 partner took everything over and left me out in the cold)
 they all said, I want you providing service, not the other
 guy.  So here I am.  7 months in and going strong.  Oh,
 almost forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is
 just my opinion.  ;-)   I think dumb investors
 are great!
  Charles Wu wrote:

 sure
  a passive minority equity position stake in a 
 privately
 held company is worthless, as legally, the person with the
 majority stake can make 100% of the decisions (in terms of
 purchasing, spending, cash distribution, etc)
  think about it, if it was your money, would you
 be willing
 to just invest it into a company when the majority
 partner can do whatever he/she wants to and you have no
 recourse?
  -Charles
 
 ---
 WISPNOG Park City, UT
 http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
 August 15-17, 2005

 -Original Message-
 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of
 *Dylan Oliver
 *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PM
 *To:* WISPA General List
 *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

 Charles,

 would you expand on that?

 On 8/22/05, *Charles Wu* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




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Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-24 Thread Brian Rohrbacher




It's easy when your 21, unmarried and live with your parents.
Muuuhahaaahahaha I have a leg up on all of you.  =-O 

Brian

Barry at Mutual Data wrote:

  Hello Brian,

WHAT DEBT FREE You can't do that That will disrupt the
time space continuum thingee. Didn't you know ISP's are supposed to
not make money?

Get a grip man   :-)


Barry

Wednesday, August 24, 2005, 10:33:19 AM, you wrote:

BR I plan to be debt free in a year, so I hope to be ok.  Everyone all paid
BR off and ready to roll.

BR Matt Liotta wrote:

  
  

  I wouldn't worry about it since the way you did it put the investors
at risk more so than you. There is a better way to do it and before
your company gets too successful you may want to visit a lawyer and
get things cleaned up.

-Matt

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

  
  
Just typed up something on the laptop that said, "I owe you "this"
much", and we both signed it.  Not fancy, but a little better than an
oral agreement.  I won't miss a payment and will pay them back if it
takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs.  Missing payments is not
an option.  Only if I'm laid up in the hospital.  Personal 
guaranteed?  Well, I told them I will pay it back...  I know the 
agreement leaves a lot open, but I trust these 4 people.  Anyway, so
they are not investors.  Lastly, lets just leave me be about this :)
I'd rather not try to defend a million questions about what if this
and what if that.  It is what I did and it is done.

Charles Wu wrote:



  that would be a loan
what type of collateral do they have? or what happens if you miss a
payment?
have you personally guaranteed the money?
 
-Charles
 
 

---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *On Behalf Of *Brian Rohrbacher
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 10:20 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Well, I guess we would call them loans as I have all control.
Correct me if I am wrong.  They gave me money at a fixed rate.
Loans or investments?

Charles Wu wrote:

  
  
well...in determing their "dumbness" (assuming you're willing to
divulge this information) - what sort of investment / equity
share / control do your investors have?
 I mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does everyone
have
an equal share? (which is a different story all together) or
does 1 single person have a majority share and the other 4 are
minority partners
 -Charles
 
---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *On Behalf Of *Brian
Rohrbacher
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
    *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Well, I guess I found four "dumb" people that got me
started.  All my start up funds came from 4 people.  All
four were subs from a previous WISP I  owned,  (before my
partner took everything over and left me out in the cold)
they all said, "I want you providing service, not the "other
guy".  So here I am.  7 months in and going strong.  Oh,
almost forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is
just my opinion.  ;-)   I think "dumb" investors
are great!
 Charles Wu wrote:



  sure
 a passive minority equity position stake in a 
privately
held company is worthless, as legally, the person with the
majority stake can make 100% of the decisions (in terms of
purchasing, spending, cash distribution, etc)
 think about it, if it was your money, would you
be willing
to just "invest it" into a company when the majority
partner can do whatever he/she wants to and you have no
recourse?
 -Charles

---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *On Behalf Of
*Dylan Oliver
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PM
        *To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Charles,

would you expand on that?

On 8/22/05

RE: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-23 Thread Charles Wu
Title: Message



that 
would be a loan
what 
type of collateral do they have? or what happens if you miss a 
payment?
have 
you personally guaranteed the money?

-Charles


---WISPNOG Park 
City, UThttp://www.wispnog.comAugust 15-17, 
2005 

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  Brian RohrbacherSent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:20 
  PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on 
  an investor?Well, I guess we would call them loans as I 
  have all control. Correct me if I am wrong. They gave me money at 
  a fixed rate. Loans or investments?Charles Wu wrote: 
  

well...in determing their "dumbness" (assuming you're willing to 
divulge this information) - what sort of investment / equity share / control 
do your investors have?

I 
mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does everyone have an equal share? 
(which is a different story all together) or does 1 single person have a 
majority share and the other 4 are minority partners

-Charles


---WISPNOG Park 
City, UThttp://www.wispnog.comAugust 15-17, 
2005 

  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  On Behalf Of Brian RohrbacherSent: Monday, August 22, 
  2005 8:05 PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: 
      [WISPA] Taking on an investor?Well, I guess I found 
  four "dumb" people that got me started. All my start up funds came 
  from 4 people. All four were subs from a previous WISP I 
  owned, (before my partner took everything over and left me out in 
  the cold) they all said, "I want you providing service, not the 
  "other guy". So here I am. 7 months in and going strong. 
  Oh, almost forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is just my 
  opinion. ;-) 
  I think "dumb" investors are great! Charles Wu 
  wrote: 
  
sure

a passive minority equity position stake in a privately held 
company is worthless, as legally, the person with the majority stake can 
make 100% of the decisions (in terms of purchasing, spending, cash 
distribution, etc)

think about it, if it was your money, would you be willing to 
just "invest it" into a company when the majority partner can do 
whatever he/she wants to and you have no recourse?

-Charles

---WISPNOG 
Park City, UThttp://www.wispnog.comAugust 
15-17, 2005 

  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  On Behalf Of Dylan OliverSent: Monday, August 22, 
  2005 4:10 PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: 
  [WISPA] Taking on an 
  investor?Charles,would you expand on 
  that?
  On 8/22/05, Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  FWIW...no 
invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will 
bewilling to invest capital into the company for a minority 
position, as thatis basically a sure way to guarantee the loss 
of their moneyThat said, there is a fool born every 
day-Charles-- Dylan 
  OliverPrimaverity, LLC 
No virus found in this incoming message.
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Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-23 Thread Tom DeReggi

Although you speak of a common reality, that is not intirely true.

People invest their money in companies on a daily basis, without being 
majority equity holder.  Its called the stock market.  The big difference is 
public versus private comapny.  But there are many type of agreements to 
guarantee payback of an investment, without controlling stock, that can't be 
undone by the controlling partner.  For example, the payback/ROI terms 
defined in an enforceable agreement.  The point I'm making is that the terms 
of a loan do not have to be fixed, and can have variables based on certain 
things happening. For example for every dollar paid out in payroll, a dollar 
needs to be repaid back to loan, if not, lender has right to demand payment 
in full, at top priority over future lenders or agreements, etc.  Which 
could result in the take over of the company, by the investor, if the owner 
is not responsible.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc

IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:08 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


FWIW...no invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will 
be
willing to invest capital into the company for a minority position, as 
that

is basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of their money

That said, there is a fool born every day

-Charles


---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Frank Muto
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 1:50 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


First ask yourself, how much control and equity am I willing to give up?



Frank Muto
President/Ceo
FSM Marketing Group, Inc






- Original Message - 
From: Dan Metcalf [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Any wisp's ever take on an investor? I'm looking to expand and
wondering

how I

should handle a potential investor who is willing to provide some
serious capitol?

Thanks

Dan


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Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-23 Thread Brian Rohrbacher
Title: Message




Just typed up something on the laptop that said, "I owe you "this"
much", and we both signed it. Not fancy, but a little better than an
oral agreement. I won't miss a payment and will pay them back if it
takes closing the WISP and working 3 jobs. Missing payments is not an
option. Only if I'm laid up in the hospital. Personal guaranteed?
Well, I told them I will pay it back... I know the agreement leaves a
lot open, but I trust these 4 people. Anyway, so they are not
investors. Lastly, lets just leave me be about this :) I'd rather not
try to defend a million questions about what if this and what if that.
It is what I did and it is done.

Charles Wu wrote:

  
  
  
  that would be a loan
  what type of collateral do they have? or what
happens if you miss a payment?
  have you personally guaranteed the money?
  
  -Charles
  
  

  ---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
  http://www.wispnog.com
August 15-17, 2005 
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Brian
Rohrbacher
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 10:20 PM
To: WISPA General List
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Well, I guess we would call them loans as I have all control. Correct
me if I am wrong. They gave me money at a fixed rate. Loans or
investments?

Charles Wu wrote:

  
  well...in determing their "dumbness" (assuming
you're willing to divulge this information) - what sort of investment /
equity share / control do your investors have?
  
  I mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does
everyone have an equal share? (which is a different story all together)
or does 1 single person have a majority share and the other 4 are
minority partners
  
  -Charles
  
  

  ---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
  http://www.wispnog.com
August 15-17, 2005 
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Well, I guess I found four "dumb" people that got me started. All my
start up funds came from 4 people. All four were subs from a previous
WISP I owned, (before my partner took everything over and left me out
in the cold) they all said, "I want you providing service, not the
"other guy". So here I am. 7 months in and going strong. Oh, almost
forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is just my opinion. ;-) I think
"dumb" investors are great!
 
Charles Wu wrote:

  
  sure
  
  a passive minority equity position stake in a
privately held company is worthless, as legally, the person with the
majority stake can make 100% of the decisions (in terms of purchasing,
spending, cash distribution, etc)
  
  think about it, if it was your money, would you
be willing to just "invest it" into a company when the majority partner
can do whatever he/she wants to and you have no recourse?
  
  -Charles
  

  ---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
  http://www.wispnog.com
August 15-17, 2005 
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PM
    To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Charles,

would you expand on that?

On 8/22/05, Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FWIW...no
invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will be
willing to invest capital into the company for a minority position, as
that
is basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of their money
  
That said, there is a fool born every day
  
-Charles



-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC 
  
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005
  

  
  
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005
  

  
  

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Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread Tom DeReggi
That really depends on your financial situation.  Depending on how bad you 
need he money and how much risk there will be to the investor will determine 
the terms.  Borrowing less money is rarely a benefit to the investor to get 
you better terms, because the investment then becomes less lower scale with 
less of a return to justify all the beaurocracy involved in negotiating the 
deal.


What you will find is no one wants to buy a burn rate. No one wants to 
invest in a business where all the needed employess aren't getting paid by 
the existing revenues.  They need to know that if they give you money, and 
it sits in your bank account, it would still be there six months later if 
you didn't expand, so they'd be able to get their money back.  The second 
the money is used for going after potential, marketing, increasing staff, 
deployment of new sites without exisitng custoemrs, etc, there is 
significant risk and the deal changes to the investors favor.  Its hard 
because to make your company look good for taxes means making it look bad 
for an investor and vice versa.  Investors prefer to see a company which 
stands on its own with little ties financially to the owners.  More so, they 
want to see a clear plan of how, when, and what profit the investor should 
expect a paypack.  ON the far end of the spectrum, a VC, will look to find 
at minimum 500% ROI in 5 years.  And you usually need to be cash flow 
positive for that.  Sometimes taking on an investor really means taking on a 
business partner not a lendor, with a loss of control or freedom.  However, 
if your company is at a sound stage, and you have the track record in place 
to justify your proposed ROI, Investors are looking for places to put their 
money, when they are probably making less than nothing with it sitting in 
the bank or in the stock market.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc

IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

- Original Message - 
From: Dan Metcalf [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 11:05 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?





Any wisp's ever take on an investor? I'm looking to expand and wondering 
how I

should handle a potential investor who is willing to provide some serious
capitol?

Thanks

Dan


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RE: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread G.Villarini
I know of some investors that could provide you some capital, but the
capitol would be difficult to move from DC ... heheh  :-) I couldn't resist

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.767.7466
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Metcalf
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 11:05 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?



Any wisp's ever take on an investor? I'm looking to expand and wondering how
I
should handle a potential investor who is willing to provide some serious
capitol?

Thanks

Dan


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Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread Frank Muto
First ask yourself, how much control and equity am I willing to give up?



Frank Muto
President/Ceo
FSM Marketing Group, Inc






- Original Message - 
From: Dan Metcalf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Any wisp's ever take on an investor? I'm looking to expand and wondering
how I
 should handle a potential investor who is willing to provide some serious
 capitol?

 Thanks

 Dan

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RE: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread Charles Wu
FWIW...no invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will be
willing to invest capital into the company for a minority position, as that
is basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of their money

That said, there is a fool born every day

-Charles


---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Frank Muto
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 1:50 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


First ask yourself, how much control and equity am I willing to give up?



Frank Muto
President/Ceo
FSM Marketing Group, Inc






- Original Message - 
From: Dan Metcalf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Any wisp's ever take on an investor? I'm looking to expand and 
 wondering
how I
 should handle a potential investor who is willing to provide some 
 serious capitol?

 Thanks

 Dan

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Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread Dylan Oliver
Charles,

would you expand on that?On 8/22/05, Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FWIW...no invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will bewilling to invest capital into the company for a minority position, as thatis basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of their money
That said, there is a fool born every day-Charles
-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC
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RE: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread Brian Webster
I'll reply to that.
People with money do not have to spend it. Remember that most of all. They
can easily invest it in a conservative location and get a safe secure rate
of return. Remember they don't need to spend it so they don't need a big
rate of return on money that already don't need to spend. Still with me? Now
if they were to invest in something as risky as this, they would need one
hell of a possible gain on their investment. Remember they don't need to
spend it. For them to even talk to you about giving you some of their money
they must think it is a good idea. If they are willing to fork over their
money, they must feel they are going to be able to get a huge return to
justify their risk. So let's review. One they will get a huge return on
their investment, Two if they aren't charging you a huge interest rate,
where do you think they will get the return. Which brings us to Three, they
will take control of your company, learn all they can from you then fire you
and keep it all to themselves. Harsh but true, I'm sure there are many on
the list who know of these stories.
Now leasing doesn't look all that bad does it? At least you know the
costs up front and the rules are quite simple. Just pay your payments then
eventually you will get to keep the company and reap the benefits of your
hard work, not just hand it over to the folks who wrote the checks. If you
don't think I'm serious, try to write contracts so this can't happen and see
how fast they write the checks :-)

Like Charles said, unless it's family or friends.but even then it
can be tricky, that's a good way to lose friends.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
-Original Message-
From: Dylan Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 5:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Charles,

would you expand on that?


On 8/22/05, Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FWIW...no invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will be
willing to invest capital into the company for a minority position, as that
is basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of their money

That said, there is a fool born every day

-Charles


--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC

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RE: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread Charles Wu
Title: Message



sure

a 
passive minority equity position stake in a privately held company is worthless, 
as legally, the person with the majority stake can make 100% of the decisions 
(in terms of purchasing, spending, cash distribution, etc)

think 
about it, if it was your money, would you be willing to just "invest it" into a 
company when the majority partner can do whatever he/she wants to and you have 
no recourse?

-Charles

---WISPNOG Park 
City, UThttp://www.wispnog.comAugust 15-17, 
2005 

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  Dylan OliverSent: Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PMTo: 
  WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an 
  investor?Charles,would you expand on 
that?
  On 8/22/05, Charles 
  Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  FWIW...no 
invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will bewilling 
to invest capital into the company for a minority position, as thatis 
basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of their moneyThat said, 
there is a fool born every day-Charles-- 
  Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC 
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Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread Brian Rohrbacher
Title: Message




Well, I guess I found four "dumb" people that got me started. All my
start up funds came from 4 people. All four were subs from a previous
WISP I owned, (before my partner took everything over and left me out
in the cold) they all said, "I want you providing service, not the
"other guy". So here I am. 7 months in and going strong. Oh, almost
forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is just my opinion.  ;-) I think
"dumb" investors are great!
 
Charles Wu wrote:

  
  
  
  sure
  
  a passive minority equity position stake in a
privately held company is worthless, as legally, the person with the
majority stake can make 100% of the decisions (in terms of purchasing,
spending, cash distribution, etc)
  
  think about it, if it was your money, would you
be willing to just "invest it" into a company when the majority partner
can do whatever he/she wants to and you have no recourse?
  
  -Charles
  

  ---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
  http://www.wispnog.com
August 15-17, 2005 
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Charles,

would you expand on that?

On 8/22/05, Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FWIW...no
invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will be
willing to invest capital into the company for a minority position, as
that
is basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of their money
  
That said, there is a fool born every day
  
-Charles



-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC 
  

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005
  



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RE: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread Charles Wu
Title: Message



well...in determing their "dumbness" (assuming you're willing to divulge 
this information) - what sort of investment / equity share / control do your 
investors have?

I 
mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does everyone have an equal share? 
(which is a different story all together) or does 1 single person have a 
majority share and the other 4 are minority partners

-Charles


---WISPNOG Park 
City, UThttp://www.wispnog.comAugust 15-17, 
2005 

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  Brian RohrbacherSent: Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 
  PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on 
  an investor?Well, I guess I found four "dumb" people that 
  got me started. All my start up funds came from 4 people. All four 
  were subs from a previous WISP I owned, (before my partner took 
  everything over and left me out in the cold) they all said, "I want you 
  providing service, not the "other guy". So here I am. 7 months in 
  and going strong. Oh, almost forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all 
  that is just my opinion. ;-) 
  I think "dumb" investors are great! Charles Wu 
  wrote: 
  

sure

a 
passive minority equity position stake in a privately held company is 
worthless, as legally, the person with the majority stake can make 100% of 
the decisions (in terms of purchasing, spending, cash distribution, 
etc)

think about it, if it was your money, would you be willing to just 
"invest it" into a company when the majority partner can do whatever he/she 
wants to and you have no recourse?

-Charles

---WISPNOG Park 
City, UThttp://www.wispnog.comAugust 15-17, 
2005 

  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  On Behalf Of Dylan OliverSent: Monday, August 22, 2005 
  4:10 PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] 
  Taking on an investor?Charles,would you 
  expand on that?
  On 8/22/05, Charles 
  Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: 
  FWIW...no 
invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will 
bewilling to invest capital into the company for a minority 
position, as thatis basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of 
their moneyThat said, there is a fool born every 
day-Charles-- Dylan 
  OliverPrimaverity, LLC 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005
  
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Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread A. Huppenthal
Not true. Minority stakeholders are actually protected from this 
behavior in many states. I think the level is 15% in Colorado. If you 
aren't careful raising money you could end up with your Popsicle in a 
wringer. Check investment rules. If you take money which exceeds the a 
certain percentage of an individual's net worth, you could be in 
trouble. If you don't disclose risks you could be in deep weeds.


You can find Angel investors - just google around for incubators or 
angel investors. They can and do know how to invest and how to help your 
company grow. Be prepared to sell off more of your company though as 
time moves forward.



Charles Wu wrote:


sure
 
a passive minority equity position stake in a privately held company 
is worthless, as legally, the person with the majority stake can make 
100% of the decisions (in terms of purchasing, spending, cash 
distribution, etc)
 
think about it, if it was your money, would you be willing to just 
invest it into a company when the majority partner can do whatever 
he/she wants to and you have no recourse?
 
-Charles
 


---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
http://www.wispnog.com http://www.wispnog.com/
August 15-17, 2005

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Dylan Oliver
*Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PM
*To:* WISPA General List
*Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

Charles,

would you expand on that?

On 8/22/05, *Charles Wu* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

FWIW...no invester (other than friends and family) worth their
salt will be
willing to invest capital into the company for a minority
position, as that
is basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of their money

That said, there is a fool born every day

-Charles


-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC 



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Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?

2005-08-22 Thread Brian Rohrbacher
Title: Message




Well, I guess we would call them loans as I have all control. Correct
me if I am wrong. They gave me money at a fixed rate. Loans or
investments?

Charles Wu wrote:

  
  
  
  well...in determing their "dumbness" (assuming
you're willing to divulge this information) - what sort of investment /
equity share / control do your investors have?
  
  I mean...assuming it's you and the other 4, does
everyone have an equal share? (which is a different story all together)
or does 1 single person have a majority share and the other 4 are
minority partners
  
  -Charles
  
  

  ---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
  http://www.wispnog.com
August 15-17, 2005 
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Brian
Rohrbacher
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 8:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Well, I guess I found four "dumb" people that got me started. All my
start up funds came from 4 people. All four were subs from a previous
WISP I owned, (before my partner took everything over and left me out
in the cold) they all said, "I want you providing service, not the
"other guy". So here I am. 7 months in and going strong. Oh, almost
forgot, like my lawyer has me say..all that is just my opinion. ;-) I think
"dumb" investors are great!
 
Charles Wu wrote:

  
  sure
  
  a passive minority equity position stake in a
privately held company is worthless, as legally, the person with the
majority stake can make 100% of the decisions (in terms of purchasing,
spending, cash distribution, etc)
  
  think about it, if it was your money, would you
be willing to just "invest it" into a company when the majority partner
can do whatever he/she wants to and you have no recourse?
  
  -Charles
  

  ---
WISPNOG Park City, UT
  http://www.wispnog.com
August 15-17, 2005 
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 4:10 PM
        To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Taking on an investor?


Charles,

would you expand on that?

On 8/22/05, Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FWIW...no
invester (other than friends and family) worth their salt will be
willing to invest capital into the company for a minority position, as
that
is basically a sure way to guarantee the loss of their money
  
That said, there is a fool born every day
  
-Charles



-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC 
  
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005
  

  
  

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.14/79 - Release Date: 8/22/2005
  



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