Re: [WSG] Page-Break-X

2006-03-17 Thread Rene Saarsoo

Jack Pivac wrote:


on 17/03/06 15:04 R Walker (RMW Web Publishing) said the following:


  Try page-break-inside: avoid; on your divs.


Yeah am using that at the moment but it doesn't seem to do anything...


As much as I have tested, this only seems to work in Opera.

Maybe you should just try to force page-break after every third
office-div (it seems that three of those fit nicely on one page...
especially when you remove the header). Probably adding some
class=third office on the server side and something like:

.third {
page-break-after: always;
}

or this might work even better:

.third + div {
page-break-before: always;
}

--

Rene Saarsoo
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RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard
Dear Kevin

I'm a .net developer, working entirely in web standards and producing
semantically correct xhtml output from server side code. There is little
or no exra effort required to produce output on a web page (in ASP.NET -
a web form) that meets web standards. Your developer can output data to
the user interface using a Repeater control and item templates that you
can format for him. You don't need to develop composite controls for
this, although you can. In any event, if the output needs to be
formatted in a composite control then all well and good. This is just
extending the maintainability and reuse that both css in design and
object oriented code development (all .net is OO) promote. This concept
is tried and tested. The developer is essentially crossing boundaries
here. If he cannot accept the extra effort required to bring an .aspx
page into the design that you have produced, why not suggest that you
sit with him and iron out the bugs. I would even suggest that you
consider picking up the basics of aspx page development, not the code,
but the web controls that are available in .net and see if you can
suggest how you can work more closely on the output generated by the
server to ensure that he understands the benefits of a collaboration. 

I'm in the fortunate (IMHO) position of working on both aspects of the
web application, so I understand the dichotomy that exists in this
scenario. Basically, a coder is mostly concerned with the complex wiring
of an application and is basically satisfied that the application runs
correctly, behaves according to the specification and handles errors
gracefully, whilst operating as efficiently as the server environment
allows. The designer is anxious to control the output to the user
interface and to ensure this meets the design brief. The two parties are
really working towards the same goal. They just start from opposite ends
of the process. 

From what you say, selling the concept of web standards to the developer
is not going to be the answer. Instead try to encourage him to work with
you and ask him to help you understand the issues he faces. 

If you go to the meeting on Monday expecting a bloodbath, that is what
will happen irrespective of what attitude the developer brings to the
table. It will do neither you nor the developer any good if this
happens, and the cause of web standards will not have won any support. I
urge you to believe strongly enough in your arguments to not wield them
as a weapon. 

Believe it or not, Microsoft, who get plenty of criticism (sometimes
justifiably) have made all the tools available to developers to build
standards compliant applications. The Developer Qualifiactions (MCAD,
MCSD and the new Microsoft .net exams) all promote web standards based
application development. If the developer has chosen to work with this
technology, encourage him to embrace the principles of good application
design.

I wish you all the very best with this.

If I can be of any help please contact me off list.

Peter Goddard
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: 16 March 2006 22:03
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .net question

thanks geoff, i guess thats i will have to be level headed in my
aproach.

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RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard
 I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about
standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

Nice one Ben! Sack the designer!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Wong
Sent: 16 March 2006 23:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .net question

On 3/17/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you would like to see some examples of what im talking about heres 
 one of the 1st sites i did with the programmer in question. notice the

 special offers section and the reservations  form-when he got it there

 wasnt a table in site.
 http://www.shandonhotel.com/

What's wrong with the special offers section? I would've done it as a
table too. Maybe you could use a table, but it looks enough like
tablular data to use a table. I'm with you on the reservations form
though. I assume the programmer's done it as a user control if he's any
good.

Using a definition list for the content in the middle is going a bit
overboard, isn't it?

Personally, I don't see much evidence of him hacking up your design in
the site, apart from the reservation form. It could be much, much worse.

I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about
standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
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Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Ben Wong
On 3/17/06, Peter Goddard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
 problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about
 standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

 Nice one Ben! Sack the designer!


Awww, I'm not that harsh. I'll give him some time to steer away from
the dark side. I've managed to stop him from using tables for
structuring the site. I'm working on weening him off using them for
forms.

Anyway, I agree with your advice to Kevin. It would probably be good
to get involved in the
coding up of your design in ASP.NET. You wouldn't have to go all the
way and become a full-on ASP.NET guru, just learn the basic server
controls and how they are rendered in the browser.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
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Re: [WSG] Page-Break-X

2006-03-17 Thread Jack Pivac

on 17/03/06 23:46 Rene Saarsoo said the following:

As much as I have tested, this only seems to work in Opera.

Maybe you should just try to force page-break after every third
office-div (it seems that three of those fit nicely on one page...
especially when you remove the header). Probably adding some
class=third office on the server side and something like:

.third {
page-break-after: always;
}

or this might work even better:

.third + div {
page-break-before: always;
}




Cheers Rene,

Yeah pity there is no better/more automatic way to do it.

I should be able to implement a 3rd break pretty easily with a touch of 
php :)


Thanks again everyone,
Jack
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Re: [WSG]

2006-03-17 Thread Grant Bissett

Me.


On 14/03/2006, at 11:15 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I know this is an extremely subjective question to ask... However...

Does anyone have an opinion (ha!) regarding who they believe to be  
the most
creative/impressive standards-based Web interface designer/s in  
Australia

(preferably, but not necessarily, Sydney) at this particular point in
history?

I'm thinking along the lines of your Douglas Bowmans and  Dan  
Cederholms
(or anyone else if Doug and Dan don't float you boat) of the  
Australian Web

design scene.

Any opinions appreciated.
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Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Ottery
Peter Goddard wrote:-- I would even suggest that you-- consider picking up the basics of aspx page development, not the code,-- but the web controls that are available in .net and see if you can
-- suggest how you can work more closely ...a great informative post Peter.Another vote here for the collaborative approach.I was in a similar situation with a .NET dev guy and took the what can I do to make this easier for you approach to the meeting. He ended up installing Visual Studio on my machine, pointed me in the direction of the templates  repeatable elements, and I looked after all the html/css framework for him. the collaboration had other knock-on positive side effects and he's now an avid css advocate :)
cheers,pete o


RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard
Thanks Ben

ASP.NET 2.0 makes this so much easier!

ATB

Peter 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Wong
Sent: 17 March 2006 10:38
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .net question

On 3/17/06, Peter Goddard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I'm an ASP.NET programmer, so I know. I actually have the reverse
 problem. The designer I work with doesn't have the faintest idea about

 standards and I'm the one cleaning out the layout tables.

 Nice one Ben! Sack the designer!


Awww, I'm not that harsh. I'll give him some time to steer away from the
dark side. I've managed to stop him from using tables for structuring
the site. I'm working on weening him off using them for forms.

Anyway, I agree with your advice to Kevin. It would probably be good to
get involved in the coding up of your design in ASP.NET. You wouldn't
have to go all the way and become a full-on ASP.NET guru, just learn the
basic server controls and how they are rendered in the browser.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
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Re: [WSG]

2006-03-17 Thread Mark Harris

Grant Bissett wrote:

Me.


I agree. Indeed, to coin a phrase, me too!

- mark
(who's not even Australian)
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RE: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Peter Goddard



Hi Peter

Its pleasing that mysuggestion seems to be making 
sense, given that i am a stand alone developer in a small company and its my 
first .net role!

I think you are absolutely right, Peter, and your clear 
example illustrates that collaboration wins every time!

Lets all wish Kevin the best of luck in sorting out this 
issue. 

All the best

Peter Goddard



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter 
OtterySent: 17 March 2006 10:48To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] .net 
question
Peter Goddard wrote:
-- I would even suggest that 
you-- consider picking up the basics of aspx page development, not the 
code,-- but the web controls that are available in .net and see if you 
can -- suggest how you can work more closely ...a great 
informative post Peter.Another vote here for the collaborative 
approach.I was in a similar situation with a .NET dev guy and took the "what 
can I do to make this easier for you" approach to the meeting. He ended up 
installing Visual Studio on my machine, pointed me in the direction of the 
templates  repeatable elements, and I looked after all the html/css 
framework for him. the collaboration had other knock-on positive side effects 
and he's now an avid css advocate :) cheers,pete 
o


Re: [WSG] maximum backward compartible to mobile phone (WAP) users? Which XHTML DTD?

2006-03-17 Thread Jon Tan

Dejan Kozina wrote:
[...] phone owners just do not upgrade their browsers. They're far 
more likely to buy a new phone that to mess with the handset's 
preinstalled software. [...]
Very interesting and informative reply Dejan, thank you. We've been 
discussing mobile content publishing for (ironically) a mobile phone 
provider to deliver content to their own employees - the user behaviour 
you describe sounds reasonable but if you have any data to support your 
statement could you let me know? I'm particularly interested in Opera 
downloads or usage where Opera is not the default device browser.


Thanks
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
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Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread kvnmcwebn

Thanks Peter, and Ben, for great insight.
I will try to a collaborative aproach with the developer.

I know that a in a  previous situation with another developer we used 
repeaters to output standards code,
i would like to be able to stick css possitioning into a form repeater for 
him. im not even sure exactly on the difference between a repeater and a 
control but im reading up on the msdn site,
Building ASP.NET 2.0 Web Sites Using Web Standards and asp.net for 
designers.


ill let you know how i get on
thanks again
-kevin 



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Re: [WSG] .net question

2006-03-17 Thread Ben Wong
No worries. You might find some useful articles at
www.aspnetresources.com. Milan is _the_ man when it comes to ASP.NET
and web standards.

Agreed, Peter. ASP.NET 2.0 is a big step forward in the right direction.

On 3/17/06, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Thanks Peter, and Ben, for great insight.
 I will try to a collaborative aproach with the developer.

 I know that a in a  previous situation with another developer we used
 repeaters to output standards code,
 i would like to be able to stick css possitioning into a form repeater for
 him. im not even sure exactly on the difference between a repeater and a
 control but im reading up on the msdn site,
 Building ASP.NET 2.0 Web Sites Using Web Standards and asp.net for
 designers.

 ill let you know how i get on
 thanks again
 -kevin


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--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

2006-03-17 Thread Marian Lake
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Re: [WSG] Semantic Form - Person's Title

2006-03-17 Thread Ian Anderson

Richard Czeiger wrote:


Can I get a consensus that this is actually the right way to do it?
It feels right, but I'd like the opinion of my venerable peers  :o)


Looks right to me. Note that in a large site with a lot of form pages 
(online banking, for example) putting meaningful IDs for all the inputs 
is wasted effort. They just need to be unique and to correlate with the 
appropriate label.


For speed, I use sequentially numbered IDs for radios or checkboxes; r1, 
r2, r3. I find it makes the process much faster on autopilot, as it 
were. Otherwise you spend at least half your time thinking up names that 
don't suck...


If the other inputs already have meaningful ids (Dreamweaver can insert 
then automatically when you name them, for instance) I'd use the default 
ones, otherwise I'd use something like t1, t2, t3 and so on for those too.


Cheers

Ian

--
_
zStudio - Web development and accessibility
http://zStudio.co.uk

Snippetz.net - Online code library
File, manage and re-use your code snippets  links
http://snippetz.net

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[WSG] Stand alone IE6 Installer

2006-03-17 Thread Helmut Granda








Does anyone know if there is a stand alone IE6 installer
anywhere? Similar to IE4 and IE5. I am running IE7 and I really dont want
to uninstall just to test couple of sites on IE6.





...helmut












Re: [WSG] Stand alone IE6 Installer

2006-03-17 Thread Jay Gilmore

Helmut Granda wrote:
Does anyone know if there is a stand alone IE6 installer anywhere? 
Similar to IE4 and IE5. I am running IE7 and I really don’t want to 
uninstall just to test couple of sites on IE6.


 


...helmut

 


Helmut,

What you are running is a preview release of IE7 Beta 2 not even Beta 2. 
If the MIX06 release is out then you are running Beta 2 but the MS IE 
blog has made many attempts to explain that there are still changes 
coming. In addition it will not be in General Availability till 2007. 
There are lots of great articles about running IE7 as a standalone and 
solution that I am using has a batch file that fixes a registry entry 
that will screw up your IE 6 when they are run on the same machine.


I would strongly suggest that you switch back to IE6 and use a SA 
version of the IE7 release that is out now.


Just my opinion.

All the best,

Jay

--
Jay Gilmore
Developer / Consultant
SmashingRed Web  Marketing
P] 902.529.0651
E] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
U] http://www.smashingred.com
B] http://www.smashingred.com/blog

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RE: [WSG] Stand alone IE6 Installer

2006-03-17 Thread Helmut Granda
Wow that was fast!

Thanks I had been looking for this for days now.

...helmut
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
 Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 2:30 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Stand alone IE6 Installer
 
 On 3/17/06, Helmut Granda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Does anyone know if there is a stand alone IE6 installer anywhere?
 Similar
  to IE4 and IE5. I am running IE7 and I really don't want to uninstall
 just
  to test couple of sites on IE6.
 
 http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/standalone
 
 the last one is the one you want: ie6eolas_nt.zip
 
 --
 --
 Christian Montoya
 christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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RE: [WSG] Stand alone IE6 Installer

2006-03-17 Thread Helmut Granda
Jay,

Thanks for your explanation and your recommendation, I didn't think of using
IE7 as SA (I didn't even knew it was available). I am aware that I'm running
a Beta and all of the technical difficulties that could come with using Beta
software. But I'm not too concerned since I don't use IE as my primary
Browser; actually I use FF for work and Opera for personal usage.

Thanks again!

...helmut

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Jay Gilmore
 Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 2:34 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Stand alone IE6 Installer
 
 Helmut Granda wrote:
  Does anyone know if there is a stand alone IE6 installer anywhere?
  Similar to IE4 and IE5. I am running IE7 and I really don't want to
  uninstall just to test couple of sites on IE6.
 
 
 
  ...helmut
 
 
 
 Helmut,
 
 What you are running is a preview release of IE7 Beta 2 not even Beta 2.
 If the MIX06 release is out then you are running Beta 2 but the MS IE
 blog has made many attempts to explain that there are still changes
 coming. In addition it will not be in General Availability till 2007.
 There are lots of great articles about running IE7 as a standalone and
 solution that I am using has a batch file that fixes a registry entry
 that will screw up your IE 6 when they are run on the same machine.
 
 I would strongly suggest that you switch back to IE6 and use a SA
 version of the IE7 release that is out now.
 
 Just my opinion.
 
 All the best,
 
 Jay
 
 --
 Jay Gilmore
 Developer / Consultant
 SmashingRed Web  Marketing
 P] 902.529.0651
 E] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 U] http://www.smashingred.com
 B] http://www.smashingred.com/blog
 
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  for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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Re: [WSG] Stand alone IE6 Installer

2006-03-17 Thread Jay Gilmore

Helmut Granda wrote:

Jay,

Thanks for your explanation and your recommendation, I didn't think of using
IE7 as SA (I didn't even knew it was available). I am aware that I'm running
a Beta and all of the technical difficulties that could come with using Beta
software. But I'm not too concerned since I don't use IE as my primary
Browser; actually I use FF for work and Opera for personal usage.

Thanks again!

...helmut


The solution, explanation and script are located here:
http://weblogs.asp.net/jgalloway/archive/2005/12/28/434132.aspx

To install the ie7 as a standalone try here:
http://www.sitepoint.com/newsletter/viewissue.php?id=5issue=18

Scroll down for the instructions.

I also found a link that has both above links included on the same 
article here:

http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2006/02/12/standalone-ie7-the-fix/

ATB,

Jay

--
Jay Gilmore
Developer / Consultant
SmashingRed Web  Marketing
P] 902.529.0651
E] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
U] http://www.smashingred.com
B] http://www.smashingred.com/blog
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