Re: [WSG] Aside and section

[Sam Sherlock]

Sectioning within Aside

Yes.  These section would have a title

as seen on html5doctor

http://html5doctor.com/aside-revisited/

aside.extras contains sections

also this maybe useful to you
http://html5doctor.com/wp-content/uploads/HTML5Doctor-sectioning-flowchart.pdf


 - S




On 28 January 2011 15:42, Tom Livingston  wrote:

> Thanks for the replies. Still working out the new elements in my head.
>
> The outliner is handy, thanks for the link David.
>
>
>
> 2011/1/24 Ворон :
> >
> >> Is it ok to nest  elements inside the  element? Can't
> >> come up with anything about this scenario on Google...
> >
> > Hi.
> >
> > The section element represents a generic section of a document or
> application. A section, in this context, is a thematic grouping of content,
> typically with a heading.
> >
> > The aside element represents a section of a page that consists of content
> that is tangentially related to the content around the aside element, and
> which could be considered separate from that content.
> >
> > According to this you may nest section inside aside element, but is that
> ok, that you have as many unrelated content on the page, that you want
> divide it to different sections?
> > This make no sense to me.
> > Could we see the page, where you want to use section inside aside
> element? Or jpg with design?
> > If you just need a wrapper — use div instead.
> >
> > And from technical point of view — aside and section just block level
> elements. You may use them how you want to.
> >
> > All best regards. Imp.
> >
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Re: [WSG] Detecting Mobile user agent - what methods work best?

[Sam Sherlock]

Also you can get opera mobile emu for pc or mac :)

http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/2010/04/22/get-the-opera-mobile-emulator-on-your-mac-or-pc



and the info for the Samsung Emu is here (think this is the appropriate link
for what Tee mentioned)
http://innovator.samsungmobile.com/galaxyTab.do#02
 - S



On 7 January 2011 17:21, tee  wrote:

>
> > On mobile strategy:
> > Bruce Lawson
> > 
> > [Personally, I think media queries is the way to go.]
>
>
> Media Queries  for Mobile Web is nothing but kool-aid nevertheless :-)  I
> admit though, I drink it very often.
>
> http://tripleodeon.com/2010/10/not-a-mobile-web-merely-a-320px-wide-one/
> http://www.cloudfour.com/css-media-query-for-mobile-is-fools-gold/
>
>
>
> On Jan 6, 2011, at 8:10 PM, Mike Kear wrote:
>
> > [A]  a link at the top of the normal page, linking to a mobile version of
> the page.   (yuk)
> > [B] javascript detection (but there are thousands of mobile devices
> to detect.   YUK )
> > [C] Use CSS @media handheld  (but many mobile phones don't support the
> handheld media type )
> > [D] server side detection using CGI.User_Agent   (but there are so many
> user agents to detect)
> > [E] screen resolution detection  (but is that reliable?)
>
>
> IMHO, you should evaluate each option on case by case basic, for small
> brochure site or a weblog, Media Queries would be the answer; for sites that
> are heavy with many variations such as NYTimes, BBC, Amazon and other
> eCommerce sites, serve side detection with content negotiation/adaption is
> the way to go - and for this, Mobile First approach may not be the
> one-and-end-all answer.
>
> On a not so related note, I was following closely the touchscreen devices
> that manufacturers showcase at CES (2011 International Consumer Electronics
> Show) as I wanted to get a better idea what widths I should take into
> consideration for a mobile website I was building.
>
> Speaking of Mobile Web, do you consider iPad, Samsung Galaxy alike the
> mobile devices? Should you treat the site on these devices  desktop or
> mobile version? iPad could be easier long as the touchscreen issue are taken
> care of, but for devices that the widths are smaller than iPad wider than
> 320 x 480, do you give it mobile version or desktop version? Media Queries
> could be the best answer, yet one needs to be reminded that these devices
> are sold by wireless carriers that uses 3G or 4G network (I am curious if
> they are to be used as giant mobile phone as well), and therefore there is
> bandwidth and cost concerns too.
>
> By the way, for those who are unaware of, you can download Samsung Galaxy
> simulator as a Andriod 3rd party add-on. Not sure if it's the first version
> though (too many bugs!), it runs very slow on my machine.
>
> tee
>
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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Sam Sherlock]

@patrick yes pinning tasks is an example of what does not need to be done -
flourish added by microsoft for extra flare :) - bet that was the result of
some blue sky idea in some board room / focus group; more reason for ie 9ish
being on xp (50% users)

@mike some of the eloquence/stats I was looking for
 - S



On 29 September 2010 17:06, Foskett, Mike  wrote:

> Strange,
>
> My answer would've been not yet.
> Too many differences in supported video codecs cross-browser.
> A bit of a mare in production unless you've a transcoding service on your
> media server.
>
> For the maximum audience:
> Flash 8 preferably (9 if full screen is a requirement), ON2 VP6 Codec, with
> HTML5 H.264+AAC+MP4 for apple products as back-up.
> Which is still one too many formats, not to forget that H.264 is licensed.
>
> The next generation will be H.264 in Flash v9.3 plus. One format albeit
> licensed for big and small alike woohoo!
>
> HTML5 video will only be truly usable when browsers and devices all support
> at least one "universal" codec.
> Probably webM, but we'll have to wait at least a 2 years for that.
>
> That's my tuppence worth anyway.
>
>
> regards.
>
> mike foskett
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
> Behalf Of Jason Arnold
> Sent: 29 September 2010 14:41
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 8:06 AM, cat soul  wrote:
> >Flash offers a one-stop shopping
> > tool, and as has been said, most/many people have the flash plug-in, so
> > playback is more or less assured across the intertoobs.
>
> Except when dealing with the Mobile market where Flash isn't universal
> and if you care at all if your content plays on the iProducts (Pad,
> Pod, Phone which does have a decent marketshare in mobile devices)
> then you'll be looking at alternatives in addition to Flash anyway.
>
> > So my question is: can CSS and/or Javascript plus *some* codec of
> > movie/sound content replace Flash?
>
> Yes.
>
> If you encode in Ogg and H.264 and include a Flash player fallback for
> IE < 9 then your video would be available in all the popular browsers
> and available on all mobile devices that can play video from websites.
>  There's already many templates out there that includes all this
> (minus the video encodings obviously).
>
>
>
> --
>
> 
> Jason Arnold
> http://www.jasonarnold.net
>
> 
>
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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Sam Sherlock]

MS is on board but for vista & windows 7 users only

So ie pre ie9 is still going to be out there; I think that ie9 should be
released as an xp version also

the other browsers all make versions that work for xp and support html5;
though though some things would only work on ie9 (pinning tasks)

microsoft seem to be operating in a new light but I feel they could shine
brighter; but maybe thats too optimistic

 - S


On 29 September 2010 03:14, cat soul  wrote:

> that's pretty nice..
>
> I've also been reading that MS is on board with the HTML5+ h264 combo as an
> alternative to Flash, so perhaps a critical mass is forming...
>
> I do feel that flash  has its place, but that it was a mistake jumping in
> head first as the web seemed to do over flash so many years ago.
>
> cs
>
>
>
> On Sep 28, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote:
>
> transitions with css
>
> here http://timvandamme.com/ some icons use transition with css with in .
> vcard
> in firefox  the icons just use hover active
>  - S
>
>
>
> On 29 September 2010 01:12, cat soul  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 28, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote:
>>
>> Kroc Camen video for everybody
>> http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody
>>
>> I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser (or
>> another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4 will maybe,
>> chrome does)
>>
>> but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread as the
>>  number that will have the flash plugin
>>
>> even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be
>> indifferent about how the video is shown - basic
>> users just want things to work flash is something that people know about
>> at some level
>>
>>
>> OK..I understand about the video part, but can CSS handle other aspects of
>> what Flash is used for, such as animation and interactivity?
>>
>> cs
>>
>
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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Sam Sherlock]

transitions with css

here http://timvandamme.com/ some icons use transition with css with in .
vcard
in firefox  the icons just use hover active
 - S



On 29 September 2010 01:12, cat soul  wrote:

> On Sep 28, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Sam Sherlock wrote:
>
> Kroc Camen video for everybody
> http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody
>
> I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser (or
> another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4 will maybe,
> chrome does)
>
> but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread as the
>  number that will have the flash plugin
>
> even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be
> indifferent about how the video is shown - basic
> users just want things to work flash is something that people know about at
> some level
>
>
> OK..I understand about the video part, but can CSS handle other aspects of
> what Flash is used for, such as animation and interactivity?
>
> cs
>
>
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Re: [WSG] CSS and h264 vs Flash

[Sam Sherlock]

Kroc Camen video for everybody
http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody

I think Steve Jobs is thinking about everyone using Safari browser (or
another modern browser that support h.264 not ff3.6 but ff4 will maybe,
chrome does)

but in reality for now such modern browsers are not as wide spread as the
 number that will have the flash plugin

even as much as many dislike flash I think many webusers will be indifferent
about how the video is shown - basic
users just want things to work flash is something that people know about at
some level

javascript (often) is part of doing what you can as developer to ensure that
the UX is as seamless as possible (requiring little of the user)
 
 - S


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Re: [WSG] Paul Irish/Divya Manian HTML5 Boilerplate

[Sam Sherlock]

Dan I would look past per-site design choices such as that.

and look into the neat and beneficial features which are many and various

(also the example in use there is outdated compared with the code on github)

the site has the initial release of html5boilerplate where as the github
repo is stages ahead of this

http://github.com/paulirish/html5-boilerplate/blob/master/index.html

also it is not finished 100% some tweaks to go - mid aug apparently

 - S


On 12 August 2010 14:24, Dan Freeman  wrote:

> Considering the link doesn't even look right in IE8, I'm not sure I'd use
> it to build anything.
>
> Dan Freeman
> Webmaster & ERP Administrator
> 800.650.6506 (TOLL FREE)
> 330.655.0341 (DIRECT)
> www.lexi.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom Livingston
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 7:58 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Paul Irish/Divya Manian HTML5 Boilerplate
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on this? Worth a try? On a production site?
>
> http://html5boilerplate.com/
>
> Looks pretty good to me... what say ye?
>
> --
>
> Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
> ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com
>
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Re: [WSG] Paul Irish/Divya Manian HTML5 Boilerplate

[Sam Sherlock]

I find it works really well

minimal files &  overhead with lots of addition life smoothing extras

(in my case *it* refers to profrontend template rather than boilerplate but
has same practices)

I would be interested to hear what others have to say too :)

 - S


On 12 August 2010 12:57, Tom Livingston  wrote:

> Anyone have any thoughts on this? Worth a try? On a production site?
>
> http://html5boilerplate.com/
>
> Looks pretty good to me... what say ye?
>
> --
>
> Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
> ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com
>
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Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]

[Sam Sherlock]

yet its worth noting that Opera & Firefox make browsers (& good ones) that
work with older OS's
yet newer versions of IE need newer OS's - its clean M$ is in cahoots with
hardware vendors
seeking to push the consumer into upgrading

Some don't even drink milk at all; claiming that it just not suitable for
consumption :)

IE often imitates; never perfects

- S



On 23 June 2010 16:56, Stuart Shearing  wrote:

> On 14 May I received this from MS as part of a mass mail-out
> Subject "You wouldn't drink nine year old milk"
>
> "The internet is a lot more advanced now.
> So is Internet Explorer 8.
> When Internet Explorer 6 was launched in 2001...
> ... To keep yourself safe, don't use an out-of-date browser."
>
> So yes, I'm guessing even Microsoft is tired of the stench!
>
>
> --
> From: "zapcat" 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 11:11 PM
>
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]
>
>  at what point will even microsoft get tired of the stench and  encourage
>> ppl to drop IE 6 and move on to a later browser?
>>
>> I know they'd love to control the web, but they don't and the bad
>>  reputation from always being the problem browser company must be  getting
>> old by now.
>>
>> zc
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]

[Sam Sherlock]

Well I can't mention who I am referring to in a public discussion group but
I know of more than a few who insist that ie has it right and are stubborn
on this beyond all reason.

I recall what things were like ten years ago - 12 years ago I have the same
mindset but then my eyes were opened - I too have a good memory :)

dinosaur developers do very much live in our times; as do systems with a
lifespan that far exceed what they were intended for

One such dd that I refer to created a CMS, impressive in its elegance too,
but it focused on ie use only to the extent that it only worked in IE - the
very same could have been achieved in better browsers and would have been
all the better for it too

consistent abysmal performance rather than graded browser support - I know
which I prefer

 I remember 25 years ago. You'd have hated that.


25 years ago I was using Acorn  Eletron playing Killer Gorilla from tape

- S



On 14 June 2010 16:59, st...@stevegibbings.co.uk
wrote:

> It's not dinasaur developers. It's systems that were never intended to have
> the lifespan they have. The web was a very different place a decade ago. See
> I remember 25 years ago. You'd have hated that.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 14 Jun 2010, at 16:34, Sam Sherlock  wrote:
>
>  That's an industry education project in itself.
>
>
> indeed it is and Microsoft was forced to inform windows users of the choice
> of browsers a little while ago
>
> BBC Click reported that one XP user worried that this was the result of
> malware installed on his machine.
> Often users ignore system messages anyway
>
> there are a few things at play here with these ie dinosaurs
>
>1. The industry is still quite young and its users are not that
>knowledgeable of choices and whats to be gained
>2. Humans are reluctant to make changes even when the offer is free of
>charge - humans fear change; change requires effort on behalf of the user
>
> 'we have dedicated systems that reply on IE6'
>
>
> surely *rely upon *dinosaur users exist in dinosaur environments - these
> systems are created by retro thinking developers who still despite  all the
> evidence to contrary think that IE browsers have the jump on other browsers
> or feel it more important for the system to be consistently abysmal across
> browsers  rather than acceptable in IE6/7 and better in ie8 and vastly
> better in everything else.
>
> Ninja squads need to invade the premisses of ie6 users and install
> something better!
>
> using ie should be considered a health & safety issue
>  <http://icant.co.uk/ie6-amelie/>http://icant.co.uk/ie6-amelie/
>
> - S
>
>
>
> On 14 June 2010 14:46, Stephen Gibbings < 
> st...@stevegibbings.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]

[Sam Sherlock]

>
> That's an industry education project in itself.


indeed it is and Microsoft was forced to inform windows users of the choice
of browsers a little while ago

BBC Click reported that one XP user worried that this was the result of
malware installed on his machine.
Often users ignore system messages anyway

there are a few things at play here with these ie dinosaurs

   1. The industry is still quite young and its users are not that
   knowledgeable of choices and whats to be gained
   2. Humans are reluctant to make changes even when the offer is free of
   charge - humans fear change; change requires effort on behalf of the user

'we have dedicated systems that reply on IE6'


surely *rely upon *dinosaur users exist in dinosaur environments - these
systems are created by retro thinking developers who still despite  all the
evidence to contrary think that IE browsers have the jump on other browsers
or feel it more important for the system to be consistently abysmal across
browsers  rather than acceptable in IE6/7 and better in ie8 and vastly
better in everything else.

Ninja squads need to invade the premisses of ie6 users and install something
better!

using ie should be considered a health & safety issue
http://icant.co.uk/ie6-amelie/

- S



On 14 June 2010 14:46, Stephen Gibbings  wrote:

>


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Re: [WSG] IE6 Finally Nearing Extinction [STATS]

[Sam Sherlock]

>
> Any bets for it being done in time to watch the 2018 World Cup on an HTML 5
> video feed?


in a ie browser without any fudging?

my initial response was only if Google are in position to take over
Microsoft before that date, but...

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/05/19/another-follow-up-on-html5-video-in-ie9.aspx

ie9: A New Hope?

for the time being ie6 remains a significant number too me much as I wish it
did'nt

- S




On 12 June 2010 12:42, Phil Archer  wrote:

> Again, interesting, stuff, Dave.
>
> Concerning your remark:
>
>
> > If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros,
> > influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the
> > mainstream.
>
> I believe they are indeed concerned about this. AIUI they're a little fed
> up with the constant remarks on fora like this where we're broadly able to
> talk about "the standards browsers" and mean "every browser except IE for
> which, everyone knows you need to put in workarounds." IE9 is going to take
> a big step towards changing that with support for SVG, XHTML and more.
>
> As for when IT departments get around to changing over to it, who can say?
> Any bets for it being done in time to watch the 2018 World Cup on an HTML 5
> video feed?
>
> Phil.
>
>
>
> Dave Lane wrote:
>
>> For what it's worth, some of our non-techie sites (with much smaller
>> user numbers, as they're focused on the relatively tiny New Zealand
>> market) are showing a slightly rosier picture over the past month:
>>
>> Advocacy website for cyclists (4544 visits):
>> IE: 41.57% (IE6-15.09% 7-37.96% 8-46.96%)
>> FF: 40.29%
>> CHROME:  9.09%
>> SAFARI:  7.68%
>> OPERA:   0.62%
>>
>> IE6 = 6.27%
>>
>> Sports clothing (28,337 visits):
>> IE: 49.92% (IE6-13.8% 7-27.06% 8-59.11%)
>> FF: 24.87%
>> CHROME:  6.20%
>> SAFARI: 17.82%
>> OPERA:   0.77%
>>
>> IE6 = 6.88%
>>
>> Brewers website (3,300 visits):
>> IE: 45.97% (IE6-10.42% 7-30.72% 8-58.87%)
>> FF: 30.06%
>> CHROME: 11.27%
>> SAFARI: 10.03%
>> OPERA:   1.03%
>>
>> IE6 = 4.79%
>>
>> Tourism operator (4,041 visits):
>> IE: 54.84% (IE6-11.60% 7-28.07% 8-60.24%)
>> FF: 26.73%
>> CHROME:  4.80%
>> SAFARI: 12.77%
>> OPERA:   0.42%
>>
>> IE6 = 6.36%
>>
>> For contrast, here're the stats for a tech company.
>>
>> IT services and software dev company (3,050 visits):
>> IE: 15.02% (IE6-8.52% 7-19.87% 8-71.62%)
>> FF: 56.20%
>> CHROME: 18.52%
>> SAFARI:  5.48%
>> OPERA:   2.82%
>>
>> IE6 = 1.28%
>>
>> If I was Microsoft I'd be quite worried that the IT support pros,
>> influencers and developers have such a different make-up than the
>> mainstream.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On 12/06/10 00:32, Lea de Groot wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/06/10 9:32 PM, Foskett, Mike wrote:
>>>
 I just took a peek at our own stats for May 2010.

 A very large set limited to UK online shoppers only.

 And I couldn't agree less with the article.

>>> I have a couple of large .au 'mum and dad' sites (ie, not techie) and I
>>> have similar results to your .uk figures:
>>>
>>> Internet Explorer67.11%   Firefox17.19%   Safari
>>>9.70%   Chrome4.67%
>>> with specific IE figures of
>>> IE8.059.08%   IE7.028.46%   IE6.012.44%
>>> ie IE 6 is at 8.3% overall - lower than your numbers, but still worth
>>> testing for.
>>>
>>> Interestingly, I have iphone/ipod numbers at 2.77% and rising fast - I
>>> guess I better get those mobile versions up!
>>>
>>> Lea
>>>
>>
>>
> --
>
>
> Phil Archer
> W3C Mobile Web Initiative
> http://www.w3.org/Mobile
>
> http://philarcher.org
> @philarcher1
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Re: Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back?

[Sam Sherlock]

Old Mac Users are stuck I tried to a get a friends mac online and using
Yahoo Mail (around the time a ymail dropped support of that browser) it had
ie5 and nothing would work at all, no other options it was a second hand
(supposedly cost effective machine) phazed into obselence.  I frequently see
IE6 on win xp in my logs, I have been in net cafes that refuse to update ie
to 7 on xp (they did not express why).  I am yearning for the day when IE6
can be removed from the equation, but I find following a few simple
guidelines much of the trauma can be alleviated (I have just tested a basic
liquid grid in ie6 and all is seeming well).

I say to clients that I support browsers currently supported by respect
vendors + IE6 on xp / win2k (but when more advanced features are aimed for
these may work or not on such horrid browsers - and if so to a lesser
degree)  ~   Its been a while since I have seen win ie 5.x in a log of any
of my sites

The web is rapidly evolving, which make treeware pretty bad at keeping up.


when at college 10+ years ago   my lecturer advised to avoid books - since
anything printed will need revision by the time its printed (it was seen as
an extreme view then ~ still like books myself but I understood his gist)

Going too far back prevents much progress ~ clients usually appreciate that

Verify everything you read by seeing what others have to say in
'blogsphere'.  There is discussion about the jQuery.com site not displaying
correctly in IE7 currently the issue has not been identified as yet but the
cause is thought to be a plugin/addon for the browsers. (thats something to
be careful of when testing ~ if a client complains about display issues
check what extensions to the browser are being used)


@Sigurd - I am suprised to hear that Silverstripe administration supports
IE6.  I have been meaning to checkout Silverstripe having heard great things
about it and what I have seen is very impressive indeed

- S


2009/3/20 MichaelMD 

> On Sun, 2009-03-15 at 21:10 +1300, Sigurd Magnusson wrote:
> > Most websites we build at SilverStripe have IE 6.0 as a minimum, and
> > even then, we're unpatiently anticipating the time when we can drop IE
> > 6.
>
> I still see quite a few people using IE5 Mac (probably OS9 users stuck
> with that) in the server logs here and LOTS of IE6 ... so I think it
> will be a while somehow...
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

[Sam Sherlock]

ok - seo is a bit like voodoo to me

the following sites seem to be contray to  suggestion

http://wordpress.org/ & .com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px
http://www.alistapart.com - h1 with img alt text same on various pages - a
duplicate on all pages (AFAIS)
http://www.zeldman.com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px

Also I see plenty of sites that are marking the logo in a div rather than a
h1 (Shaun Inman & Todd Dominey) ie in accordance with the suggestions with
Henrik's link and Darren's

or am I looking at something the wrong way. Its late, my quick investigation
maybe a little rash (perhaps I am jumping to conclusions) - anyway the more
I see the more verity I find and more confused I get

- S

2008/8/26 Henrik Madsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>
> I agree, beware SEO-wise.
>
> If anyone's interested in seeing what black-hat SEOs are actually doing in
> this respect, read this:
>
>
> http://www.igenerator.com.au/blog/2008/08/top-10-web-design-firms-use-black-hat-seo/
>
>
>
>
>    Henrik Madsen
> *Generator*
> +61 8 9387 1250
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.igenerator.com.au
>
> On 26/08/2008, at 7:49 AM, Darren Lovelock wrote:
>
> I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless you
> wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case
> then I would just use sifr.
>
> SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you would
> have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the
> same
> alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using
> the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword
> stuffing.
>
>
> I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your
> company
> name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page.
>
> I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a
> background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed
> back
> to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes.
>
> Darren Lovelock
> Munky Online Web Design
> http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
> T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Paul Bennett
> Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07
> To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
> Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when
> images are off and css is still in use.
> This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address.
>
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [WSG] input type image

[Sam Sherlock]

chris's suggestion looks simluar to particletree's rediscovered button
element

> >
>> input#btnGo {
>>background:
>> url(/proximer/_resource/generic/image/btn_go.jpg)!important
>> top left no-repeat;
>> }
>>
>
> It probably "works", but the background image is neatly covered by the
> actual image of the button itself.
>
>  Would it be acceptable to just use a input of type "submit" and leave
>> the value empty?
>> 
>>
>
> Not really, as the value in the case of these buttons is the actual label
> (that would, for instance, be read out by screen readers).
>
> What are you actually trying to achieve?
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
> __
> re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
> [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
> www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
> http://redux.deviantart.com
> __
> Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
> http://webstandards.org/
> __
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Centered List

[Sam Sherlock]

have a look at
http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/developer-tools/list-o-matic/

I think your going to need to set the width of the ol (and the li inbetween)
set the margin of your ol to someing like

margin: 5px auto;

get firefox+firebug as it will allow you to test styles in firebug which you
can then move to the actual css

hth - S

2008/7/14 Tyrone Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>  Hi,
>
>
>
> This is my first post and I am fairly new to CSS.
>
>
>
> I'd like some help positioning a floated list. The image link is an example
> of that the design should look like (
> http://www.datadial.net/test/bb-example.gif ).
>
> The problem I am having is that I can float the list items to get them to
> sit side by side but the list needs to be centred in the column. Some
> products will have fewer size options (ie. I don't know the total width).
>
>
>
> 
>
>   xs
>
>   s
>
>   m
>
>   l
>
>   xl
>
>   2xl
>
>   3xl
>
> 
>
>
>
> Any idea on how I should approach this would be welcome.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Tyrone
>
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Re: [WSG] Firefox 3

[Sam Sherlock]

all I have to do is create had to do was create a new profile and set
shortcuts to
load ff3 with the new profile.

heres some info
http://blog.codefront.net/2007/08/20/how-to-have-firefox-3-and-firefox-2-running-at-the-same-time/

2008/6/18 Sajan Franco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> It will replace the version 2 with the new one, and many of the plugins
> that works on version 2 gets disable since they aren't compatible. I did a
> mistake updating.
>
> Sajan
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:44 PM, Felix Miata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On 2008/06/18 13:17 (GMT+0100) Paul Collins apparently typed:
>>
>> > Does anyone know if it will replace your version of Firefox 2, or will
>> > it run side by side?!
>>
>> It doesn't have to. There are instructions on the mozilla.org developer
>> pages
>> for running as many concurrent versions of Gecko products as you wish. The
>> particulars depend on your environment. Linux & Mac & Win don't all work
>> exactly the same.
>>
>> Don't install as replacement before checking if extensions you depend on
>> are
>> ready for it.
>> --
>> "Where were you when I laid the earth's
>> foudation?"Matthew 7:12 NIV
>>
>>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
>>
>> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] HTML special characters coding

[Sam Sherlock]

>
> up as a "?" when it's
> unknown rather than mangled as ’


has caused me truma in the past.

now I use UTF-8 aiming to entify < > & and quotes aswell as £ and such

dealing with large amounts of content thats been created in a wyswyg editor
can be quite an
issue erronus classes    also some handle special chars better than
others

2008/6/18 Matthew Holloway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Andrew Cunningham wrote:
> > LOL, i enjoyed the wording.
> >
> > Considering the document character set of HTML4 is Unicode, if it
> > can't be displayed in UTF-8 in a browser, then it can't be displayed
> > using entitiies or NCRs either ;)
>
> Generally I agree, although one good thing about entities (including
> NCRs of course) is that it'll typically come up as a "?" when it's
> unknown rather than mangled as ’. So it'll break more gracefully.
>
> Also there can be other things involved other than the browser when
> writing HTML, such as bad proxies. I can't remember the name of the
> software but a few years ago an adblocker proxy that I installed on my
> parents machine would break UTF-8 horribly... of course that's the
> proxy's fault but entites would work around their bug.
>
> (I don't really have strong opinions either way though)
>
> --
> .Matthew Holloway
> http://holloway.co.nz/
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Embed a flash file 100%

[Sam Sherlock]

pardon me if I have missed something but have you tried posting this
question to the swfObject list over at google code?

also the comments made by Rick about flash scale mode are worth pursuing,
perhaps stage.align may help.

also may be helpful
http://www.actionscript.com/Article/tabid/54/ArticleID/full-browser-flash-part-1/Default.aspx

- S

2008/5/13 Rick Lecoat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On 13 May 2008, at 11:39, jay wrote:
>
>  If you make the height:100% then it is 100% of the parent - since your
> > > flash file does not stretch to the that height the background shows which
> > > you have declared as white:
> > > var so = new SWFObject("main.swf", "main", "100%", "100%", "8",
> > > "#ff"); <--
> > >
> > > You need to either make the background black or set the height of
> > > #flashcontent to the height of the flash content.
> > >
> >
> On 13 May 2008, at 17:49, Laert Jansen wrote:
>
>  the problem isn´t the color of that areais that that area
> > shouldn´t exist..I left it white on purpose just to show the area
> > apart from the rest...
> >
>
>
> Leart;
>
> What Jay was saying (I think) is that your SWFObject setup is coded to go
> full screen. Your  flash file (778 x 560 px) will scale to fit but only with
> it's original height:width ratio. So unless your browser viewport is
> precisely the same ratio of heigh to width as the flash file, you will get
> 'dead space' either top and bottom or on each side. Like if you watch a
> widescreen film on a traditional-size (4:3) TV, you get black bands top and
> bottom.
>
> --
> Rick Lecoat
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] A Great Example of Poor Accessibility

[Sam Sherlock]

or try 64 squares

http://64squar.es/


wish i had the time :)

2008/5/10 Svip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Not only Mac users are locked out (of course, so are Linux users,
> etc.), but also users of older Windows.  And you didn't even mention
> Vista!
>
> MSN in my opinion has too many users for the service it provides.  And
> that service is horrible.  Just recently they blocked youtube links on
> MSN.  What's up with that?
>
> As for a good chess game, I suggest http://gameknot.com It is simple
> to use, works in every browser, and while I cannot exactly remember
> what it used, I think it was some sort of HTML form.  Because gameknot
> allows up to several days of chess play.  Of course, after it being an
> hour of your move, you get an email alerting you.
>
> Regards,
> Svip
>
> 2008/5/10 James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Today i wanted to play a friend in a game of chess. I have a Yahoo
> account
> > so i decided to play him on Yahoo.
> >
> > Yahoo have recently upgraded their system and its causing errors for alot
> of
> > users. It seems you need to a certain version of Flash to play ( I have
> > Flash 9). After trying for about an hour to find a solution to the answer
> i
> > decided to use the Java client to play chess (the old method). That also
> > would not work and would not report any errors as to why. I have Java
> > enabled, but it seemed to just hang as it loaded.
> >
> > After a while i thought forget it and went to MSN to play him in chess. I
> > spent a while setting him up an account on MSN (he is a poor internet
> user).
> > All worked fine ... for him. Im using a Mac, so when i went to the MSN
> site
> > it said you need XP or 2000 to play and you need IE. Great!
> >
> > After 2 hours i gave up. I wanted to use Yahoo or MSN. My friend (who is
> old
> > in his age) was getting annoyed and i was annoyed. We opted to leave it
> and
> > meet up in the week for a game of chess.
> >
> > Personally i feel todays problems are a great example of poor
> accessibility.
> >
> > To conclude. Yahoo's new system has bugs that are affecting alot of
> people
> > and are stopping people accessing their services. MSN are trying to
> create
> > yet another centralized service where Mac users are locked out of their
> > services. Yahoo's problems can be seen as teething problems but MSN's are
> > ignorance.
> >
> > Ps. Sorry if there are spelling/grammer mistakes. I'm a little ill today
> and
> > concerntration is not at its best.
> >
> >
> > ***
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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

[Sam Sherlock]

>
> iPhone can do better


does'nt support flash :)

2008/5/7 Michael MD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> some BIG usability NO-NOs I see on a lot of flash sites.
>
> intro pages (one of my pet hates - I HATE waiting ... and I'm sure I'm not
> the only one! - they are pointless and should be BANNED! - if you reallly
> *must* then make sure there is a non-flash way to skip it)
>
> animations in navigation - yes flash can do animations really well - but
> don't misuse it by making navigation slow for users!
> (what about people on slow machines?)
>
> whole website as one huge swf - making people wait for the whole thing to
> download before they can see anything!  ... this is so obviously bad you'd
> think it *should* be rare but sadly its still quite common out there
> - split it up into smaller files and give people something more
> interesting or useful to look at than "loading..." within a few seconds!
> (even on a slow dial-up modem!) -
>
> text you can't easily copy/paste (that wasn't actually really intended to
> be "locked down")
>  - if its something you may want people to use or pass on then it is silly
> to make it more difficult for them to copy/paste.
>   eg If you want people to call you on your office phone or come to your
> store's street address - then why stop them from copying the number or
> address to their contact list?
>   - will they bother retyping it and double checking to make sure they
> haven't got it wrong? probably not!
>
>
> well... actually ... if the main content is text why not publish it as
> html?
> flash can do some nice things but I don't think it should ever be used as
> a *replacement* for html or text!
>
> also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player.
> eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a "mobile
> flash player" ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an
> iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about?
> ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

[Sam Sherlock]

>
> debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot
> lower :)


its all to easy to end up a blind alley with flash
also flash often allowed designers to ensure cross platform display

 Opera 9.5


looks great - very slick and dragonfly will be amazingly advantageous  :)

2008/5/7 James Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 02:35:51 pm Elizabeth Spiegel wrote:
>
> >
> > It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page
> > e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2:
> > http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder
> >
> > Elizabeth
>
>
> Hi
>
> Yes, but that kind of functionality can easily be done with some AJAX
> know-how. e.g http://www.stripegenerator.com/
>
> Really, from a developers POV, the benefit of Flash was to do the little
> http
> fetches from the server without loading the page -- what came to be known
> as
> AJAX. It could do it back in 1999 or whenever Flash 3 came out, in a
> rudimentary way. If you are using Flash just for that then JS/HTTP request
> can do it just as well, debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot
> lower :) That's why I stopped using Flash.
>
> For design, animation etc, Flash still has the edge although some of the
> recent SVG improvements are starting to erode that (like resizable SVG
> backgrounds in Opera 9.5)
>
> Cheers
> James
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

[Sam Sherlock]

that timbuk2 is great.

wholeheartedly agree about the small fonts and poor contrast

though this is designers getting carried away with things, and pleasing
their own egos

often I get asked by clients to create a flash intro for a site, with
cinematic ambitions they describe what they had in mind

'text slides in..', '...musical intro plays'- etc


Sometimes it sounds like people think it doesn't matter what a site looks
> like as long as it is accessible.
> But it does matter to the majority of people. I know that content is the
> ultimate thing, but if the site isn't presented in an attractive manner then
> a lot of (sighted) people won't stop to look. I personally would rarely
> bother looking at a site that had no styles and/or looked like a Word
> document or list or something. I don't think I'm alone here! Most of us live
> in a visual world. So we want/expect/need to see attractive things.


its about balance; and finding the right middle ground.This is project
specific.  I make every site with three groupings in mind


   1. client
   2. intended audience
   3. maintainer of site (sometimes not me, sometimes client or employee
   of client using CMS)





2008/5/7 Elizabeth Spiegel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hi all
>
> I've yet to see a full flash website I liked - too often they use small
> fonts and poor contrast; navigation is quite often difficult. I understand
> that accessibility has been improved, but haven't really explored it (and
> of
> course just because the tools are now available doesn't mean that
> developers
> necessarily use them, any more than they do in HTML).
>
> It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page
> e.g.
> building a customised bag at Timbuk2:
> http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder
>
> Elizabeth
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of kate
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 May 2008 6:30 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
>
> Hi,
>
> A forum I used to go to uesd to say some HTML and Flash.
> Maybe this site helps a little bit:
> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html
> Or:
> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200610/full_flash_websites_and_seo/
>
> Kate
> http://jungaling.com/bichons/
> http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/
> http://jungaling.com/katesplace/
> - Original Message -
> From: "Michael Persson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:15 PM
> Subject: [WSG] Full flash websites
>
>
> > The company I worl with has a big love for full flash websites and we
> have
> > produced some very nice but heavy and slow ones.
> >
> > What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about
> full
> > flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in
> > general??
> >
> > I am personally and professionally against them as they cut of the
> > usabiity, have bad accessibility and for me the navigation most often i
> > very difficult and difficult to use.
> >
> > Michael Persson
> >
> >
> >
> > ***
> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date:
> > 05/05/2008 06:01
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

[Sam Sherlock]

Using some unobstrusive js effects much the same (and or better) can be made
without flash

http://simonwillison.net/static/2008/xtech/

which advises making a standard site that functions with basic html and
present it with css, and then add additional functionality

not my own work but an example of the what I am talking about
http://interiors.davroc.co.uk/



2008/5/7 Susie Gardner-Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>  I do think we also shouldn't forget that there are a lot of people out
> there who need to find a webpage attractive in order to make them stay and
> read the content. And some Flash(y) content can be useful/attractive.
> (Emphasis on 'can'!) Some people (probably a lot) really like that sort of
> stuff ... :)
>
> - susie
>
>
> On 7/5/08 5:03 AM, "Sam Sherlock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I take the point of view that web pages are created to communicate with
> your audience.
>
>
> thats how I see it too, content is king
>
>
> I myself often have javascript and flash diasabled, so long as the content
> is available to the audience.
>
>
>
> ***
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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

[Sam Sherlock]

>
> I take the point of view that web pages are created to communicate with
> your audience.


thats how I see it too, content is king


I myself often have javascript and flash diasabled, so long as the content
is available to the audience.


2008/5/6 Sven Dowideit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> yup, but then I take the point of view that web pages are created to
> communicate with your audience. If people like me are part of your audience,
> flash is pretty much unsuitable.
>
> That doesn't mean there aren't audiences for whom flash is the right
> answer, just that thought and analysis are needed to make sure your
> communication medium is appropriate to both your message and your audience.
>
> No different really from writing your web content in Latin :}
>
> sven
>
> kate wrote:
>
> > because users like Sven disable it by default
> >  No disrespect to Sven but that must be the pits to take the very long
> > learning curve:
> > Create the Flash:
> > Then along comes 'A Visitor' and disable all your hard work..*doh
> > Kate
> > http://jungaling.com/bichons/
> > http://jungaling.com/Malaysia/
> > http://simplyborneo.com/gardenforums/
> > http://jungaling.com/katesplace/
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >*From:* Sam Sherlock <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org <mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org>
> >*Sent:* Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:13 AM
> >*Subject:* Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
> >
> >As many have already commented I apply caution when using flash
> >(because of it creates extra work, because users like Sven disable
> >it by default and much more besides)
> >
> >The thing is some clients care initially more for the visual appeal
> >(things bouncing around etc) of websites and not for features that
> >improve the accessibility or user experience overall.
> >
> >others have made points about ensuring content is available to all.
> >  In a lot of cases it is possible to display the same content in a no
> >flash format  (server side scripting helps a great deal - not
> >writing script srcs or codeblocks to the page  [setting this in a
> >user setting session var])
> >
> >I make use of swfObject to replace a summary of the content that the
> >swf displays, often with links to further info
> >
> >of the extent of work produced by this can mushroom, and become
> >unwieldy.  admittedly this is much easier if the site is not full
> >browser flash, but if the site is small and all the content is
> >loaded in dynamically
> >
> >Flash can recreate (often poorly) things that are achieved with
> >traditional html  - deep linking
> >And this is then an aspect of the site that must be cared for,
> >increasing the overall complexity (and therefore potential err) -
> >there if a lot to bear in mind here
> >
> >also there is shadowbox (by Michael Jackson [not the former jackson
> >5 pop sensation])   that does a real nice job in displaying all
> >kinds of content lightbox (lokesh dhakar) style of the page - this
> >is what Ben Buchanan was refering to  I think -
> >http://mjijackson.com/shadowbox/index.html
> >
> >- S
> >
> >2008/5/6 Ben Buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>:
> >
> >
> >
> > > What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists
> >think about full
> > > flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for
> >flash in
> > > general??
> >
> >Accessibility and search engine visibility of Flash in most
> >cases is zero. I've only heard of one Flash site that was
> >considered accessible and it made a lot of news at the time!
> >
> >Flash only reliably works for users with no physical or
> >technical barriers; and search engines can't read Flash in any
> >useful manner. I generally don't like the usability aspects
> >either - that's subjective I guess, but I've found Flash is
> >generally used when someone thought HTML didn't make them look
> >cool enough. Which means they wanted lots of stuff to bounce and
> >flash and so on ;)
> >
> >Essentially you should only ever add a Flash layer over the top
> > 

Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

[Sam Sherlock]

As many have already commented I apply caution when using flash (because of
it creates extra work, because users like Sven disable it by default and
much more besides)

The thing is some clients care initially more for the visual appeal (things
bouncing around etc) of websites and not for features that improve the
accessibility or user experience overall.

others have made points about ensuring content is available to all.  In a
lot of cases it is possible to display the same content in a no flash
format  (server side scripting helps a great deal - not writing script srcs
or codeblocks to the page  [setting this in a user setting session var])

I make use of swfObject to replace a summary of the content that the swf
displays, often with links to further info

of the extent of work produced by this can mushroom, and become unwieldy.
admittedly this is much easier if the site is not full browser flash, but if
the site is small and all the content is loaded in dynamically

Flash can recreate (often poorly) things that are achieved with traditional
html  - deep linking
And this is then an aspect of the site that must be cared for, increasing
the overall complexity (and therefore potential err) - there if a lot to
bear in mind here

also there is shadowbox (by Michael Jackson [not the former jackson 5 pop
sensation])   that does a real nice job in displaying all kinds of content
lightbox (lokesh dhakar) style of the page - this is what Ben Buchanan was
refering to  I think - http://mjijackson.com/shadowbox/index.html

- S

2008/5/6 Ben Buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> > What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about
> full
> > flash websites?? where is the usability and accessibility for flash in
> > general??
>
> Accessibility and search engine visibility of Flash in most cases is zero.
> I've only heard of one Flash site that was considered accessible and it made
> a lot of news at the time!
>
> Flash only reliably works for users with no physical or technical
> barriers; and search engines can't read Flash in any useful manner. I
> generally don't like the usability aspects either - that's subjective I
> guess, but I've found Flash is generally used when someone thought HTML
> didn't make them look cool enough. Which means they wanted lots of stuff to
> bounce and flash and so on ;)
>
> Essentially you should only ever add a Flash layer over the top of XHTML;
> and give users the choice between the two. Flash isn't evil, but *only
> offering Flash* is evil.
>
> -ben
>
> --
> --- 
> --- The future has arrived; it's just not
> --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

[Sam Sherlock]

Ideas stuff and various work right off the bat with ff and opera tweaking ie
can go on for weeks and often requires loads of compromises

the list of issues with ie browsers hurts my noggin

I can't see m$ using geko though (it would be admitting the competition is
better) I wish they would, shame it would be better for everyone


should be forever reffered to as inferior explorer :)
- S

2008/4/29 James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Microsoft should save themselves all the hassle and use the Geko engine.
> There IE still gets shipped with
> every version of Windows.
>
> They have created a nice operating system for general users and by
> changing their engine to an open source
> one is not going to decrease sales in their O/S.
>
> This isn't the end of the IE bugs. I can put my house on it there will be
> more to come.
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Sam Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > looks like another quagmire is about to open up;
> >
> > funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6
> >
> > 2008/4/29 Dave Woods <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta
> > > version.
> > >
> > > The beta version is available so that developers can report problems
> > > to Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By
> > > changing your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change 
> > > it
> > > again when the final release of IE8 is made available.
> > >
> > > If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is
> > > probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force
> > > IE7 rendering mode.
> > >
> > > Hope that helps?
> > >
> > > Dave
> > > --
> > > http://www.dave-woods.co.uk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > >
> > > On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some
> > > > > ahhhs and
> > > > > ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all
> > > > > sites
> > > > > seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google
> > > > > maps
> > > > > blown up, etc.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dare I say:
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new
> > > > layout engine and then remove it/set it to content="IE=8"?
> > > >
> > > > Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >  - Rahul.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ***
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Re: [WSG] IE8 beta's a nightmare

[Sam Sherlock]

looks like another quagmire is about to open up;

funny how I still feel that I am getting over ie6

2008/4/29 Dave Woods <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Don't fix or change anything in your site to be compatible with a beta
> version.
>
> The beta version is available so that developers can report problems to
> Microsoft so that any bugs can be fixed for the final release. By changing
> your code now, you're likely to find that you'll need to change it again
> when the final release of IE8 is made available.
>
> If you're already getting a significant number of IE8 users (which is
> probably unlikely) then do as Rahul suggests and use the meta tag to force
> IE7 rendering mode.
>
> Hope that helps?
>
> Dave
> --
> http://www.dave-woods.co.uk
>
>
>
> 2008/4/29 Rahul Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> On 29-Apr-08, at 12:40 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:
> >
> >  we just did some testing of our sites in IE8 beta and got some ahhhs
> > > and
> > > ohhhs - not because of its standard compliance, rather because all
> > > sites
> > > seem to be broken: logos disappeared, elements misplaced, Google maps
> > > blown up, etc.
> > >
> >
> > Dare I say:
> > 
> >
> > Does that not give you enough time to fix the issues with the new layout
> > engine and then remove it/set it to content="IE=8"?
> >
> > Or have I misunderstood how IE works? I frequently do.
> >
> > Best,
> >  - Rahul.
> >
> >
> >
> > ***
> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] linking multiple CSS files

[Sam Sherlock]

> Additionally you can use something like CSSTidy in that case


I am using cssTidy for just this.   A simple php script that puts all
required css in buffer and writes a single file used by the page.   For JS
I  am using JSMin in the same way

with gzip etags also loading times improve dramatically.

2008/4/28 Dennis Lapcewich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Return Receipt
>
>   Your   Re: [WSG] linking multiple CSS files
>   document:
>
>   wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS
>   received
>   by:
>
>   at:04/28/2008 09:20:20
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta

[Sam Sherlock]

I have mixed feelings over this site, on first appearance I like the look
esp the header and the colour changes

Though I don't think its appropriate for the BBC, especially when alot of it
seems to be a carbon copy of other sites.

I hope there will be an option to theme the site 'classic' - so that it
looks like the bbc site that I know and enjoy as is.

its too clunky and makes poor use of space, whilst being wider it does not
make effective use of the area.  A different approach would enable text
resizing

as for that sunny image.  Judging by today, greyer much much greyer.  A
proper english summer

On 18/12/2007, Matthew Pennell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's not working at all via iPhone, strangely.
>
> - Matthew
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 18 Dec 2007, at 18:31, Kim Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Well they are on my computer! (we're talking about the 4 colored
> > buttons that changed the colors of the page... right?)
> >
> > John Faulds skrev:
> >>> Seems like someone is listening! The color buttons is gone
> >>
> >> No they're not. Unless you're referring to something different.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ***
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Re: [WSG] IE6 problem - more general

[Sam Sherlock]

Hi,

I am like you merely trying to keep a grasp of the situation

I have glanced over this article today
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2007/05/10/70-expert-ideas-for-better-css-coding/


featuring some ideas from Rachel Andrews.

and I hate to be the bearer of bad news but its still not clickable in IE6

- S

On 15/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Hi there Kepler

Thank you!
I believe it's OK now.

I would really like to ask you how you know all this – how you keep it in
your head?!! Do you have pages and pages of stuff like this written down, or
what?!!!

For example: about making nav buttons clickable in IE7: why does the
container div need to be 'position: relative" for IE7? And what if there
wasn't a container div? Would that make it not work at all?!

I really need to get a handle on how to keep all these things 'known' to
me! I've got a quite good book – The CSS Anthology, by Rachel Andrews. But
it's pre-IE7 ...

Any thoughts, suggestions would be great!

Thanks again ... :)

- susie


On 15/5/07 6:37 AM, "Kepler Gelotte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Susan,

To make the navigation buttons clickable in IE7 you need to define the
container as position: relative:

#container {
position: relative;
}

Also the pseudo links should be defined for :link and :visited if you
define It for :hover. Try using these for the navigation definitions:

#leftNav a:link, #leftNav a:visited {   /* instead of #leftNav a */

#level2nav  a:link, #level2nav a:visited   {/* instead of #level2nav
li a */

Regards,
Kepler



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Re: [WSG] IE6 problem

[Sam Sherlock]

Have just checked. Its not clickable at moment.  I have deleted and cleared
the cache etc.

On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Guys!
You are wonderful!!

I would never have thought of that – and still have no idea why that would
make a difference! I've changed it on the site and it's fine in IE7. If you
want to give it one last look in IE6 that'd be wonderful (but I am sure I
can find someone somewhere here at UQ with IE6 if you can't!)

Thank you so much!!

- susie

On 14/5/07 1:43 PM, "Sam Sherlock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Yep, for me too.

sorry to say.  However other pages are ok.

also removing the image (for me in ie6) gets the first link (and not the
others) working.

and I'd have to say that that has me beat.


and after further investigation

removing the margin-bottom: -10px gets it working

- S

On 14/05/07, *John Faulds* < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote:

It's not the links on the calendar that don't work - it's the links in the

left nav. Not sure why but it's something to do with the h2 because taking
it out fixes the problem.

On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:58:37 +1000, Sam Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >
wrote:

> works fine in ff, opera & ie on windows 2000
>
> I click the beige links and get pdf's
>
> - S
>
> On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown < [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote:
>>
>> OK, I've sorted out the textarea problem!
>>
>> Now it's just the links on the calendar page that aren't clickable ...
>> ?!
>>
>> - susie
>>
>>
>> On 14/5/07 12:04 PM, "Susie Gardner-Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks again John. I had to rely on someone else to tell me about IE6

>> and
>> > that's what she said. Obviously something else for her!
>> >
>> > And thanks for your info on my incorrect use of forms (!)
>> >
>> > However ...Now that I've changed the tags, and hopefully aligned the
>> > textareas, something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!)
>> >
>> > Now the last textarea on the form page is aligning right, and try
>> what I
>> may
>> > I can't bring it back. Can you see where I'm doing something wrong?
>> >
>> > And re the links on the calendar page - any thoughts on why they're
>> not
>> > clickable?
>> >
>> > - susie
>> >
>> >
>> > On 14/5/07 11:05 AM, "John Faulds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm not seeing the problems as you describe - the content appears in
>> the
>> >> same place in FF & IE6 on both pages. There are couple of other
>> problems
>> >> in IE6 though: on the form page, your textareas are aligned right
and
>> not
>> >> with the text above them and on the calendar page, none of the links
>> in
>> >> the left nav are clickable.
>> >>
>> >> You're also using legends incorrectly. There should only be one
>> legend
>> per
>> >> fieldset which describes all the fields. The text associated with
>> each
>> >> textarea should be in a  tag instead.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:27:46 +1000, Susie Gardner-Brown
>> >> < [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >
wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi again
>> >>>
>> >>> Still on the same website ...
>> >>>
>> >>> Apparently on a couple of pages in IE6, the main content isn't
>> starting
>> >>> till
>> >>> after the end of the leftnav div – ie. Further down the page. It is
>> fine
>> >>> in
>> >>> IE7 and Firefox. And fine on Firefox and Safari on the Mac. The
>> pages
>> >>> concerned have either got a form, or else a large graphic near the
>> top
>> of
>> >>> the content area.
>> >>>
>> >>> Example pages:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/feedback.html
>> >>> Or
>> >>> http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/calendar/January.html
>> >>>
>> >>> Anyone know what the fix is for this?
>> >>>
>> >>> I wish there was one website where you could go and look up all the

>> >>> indi

Re: [WSG] IE6 problem

[Sam Sherlock]

Yep, for me too.

sorry to say.  However other pages are ok.

also removing the image (for me in ie6) gets the first link (and not the
others) working.

and I'd have to say that that has me beat.


and after further investigation

removing the margin-bottom: -10px gets it working

- S

On 14/05/07, John Faulds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


It's not the links on the calendar that don't work - it's the links in the
left nav. Not sure why but it's something to do with the h2 because taking
it out fixes the problem.

On Mon, 14 May 2007 12:58:37 +1000, Sam Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> works fine in ff, opera & ie on windows 2000
>
> I click the beige links and get pdf's
>
> - S
>
> On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> OK, I've sorted out the textarea problem!
>>
>> Now it's just the links on the calendar page that aren't clickable ...
>> ?!
>>
>> - susie
>>
>>
>> On 14/5/07 12:04 PM, "Susie Gardner-Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks again John. I had to rely on someone else to tell me about IE6
>> and
>> > that's what she said. Obviously something else for her!
>> >
>> > And thanks for your info on my incorrect use of forms (!)
>> >
>> > However ...Now that I've changed the tags, and hopefully aligned the
>> > textareas, something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!)
>> >
>> > Now the last textarea on the form page is aligning right, and try
>> what I
>> may
>> > I can't bring it back. Can you see where I'm doing something wrong?
>> >
>> > And re the links on the calendar page - any thoughts on why they're
>> not
>> > clickable?
>> >
>> > - susie
>> >
>> >
>> > On 14/5/07 11:05 AM, "John Faulds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm not seeing the problems as you describe - the content appears in
>> the
>> >> same place in FF & IE6 on both pages. There are couple of other
>> problems
>> >> in IE6 though: on the form page, your textareas are aligned right
and
>> not
>> >> with the text above them and on the calendar page, none of the links
>> in
>> >> the left nav are clickable.
>> >>
>> >> You're also using legends incorrectly. There should only be one
>> legend
>> per
>> >> fieldset which describes all the fields. The text associated with
>> each
>> >> textarea should be in a  tag instead.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:27:46 +1000, Susie Gardner-Brown
>> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi again
>> >>>
>> >>> Still on the same website ...
>> >>>
>> >>> Apparently on a couple of pages in IE6, the main content isn¹t
>> starting
>> >>> till
>> >>> after the end of the leftnav div ­ ie. Further down the page. It is
>> fine
>> >>> in
>> >>> IE7 and Firefox. And fine on Firefox and Safari on the Mac. The
>> pages
>> >>> concerned have either got a form, or else a large graphic near the
>> top
>> of
>> >>> the content area.
>> >>>
>> >>> Example pages:
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/feedback.html
>> >>> Or
>> >>> http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/calendar/January.html
>> >>>
>> >>> Anyone know what the fix is for this?
>> >>>
>> >>> I wish there was one website where you could go and look up all the
>> >>> individual fixes for things ... I tend to learn things, and then
>> forget
>> >>> them
>> >>> if I don¹t use them again quickly, so have to keep asking!!
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers
>> >>> susie
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ***
>> >>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> >>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> >>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>> ***
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > **

Re: [WSG] IE6 problem

[Sam Sherlock]

works fine in ff, opera & ie on windows 2000

I click the beige links and get pdf's

- S

On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


OK, I've sorted out the textarea problem!

Now it's just the links on the calendar page that aren't clickable ... ?!

- susie


On 14/5/07 12:04 PM, "Susie Gardner-Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks again John. I had to rely on someone else to tell me about IE6
and
> that's what she said. Obviously something else for her!
>
> And thanks for your info on my incorrect use of forms (!)
>
> However ...Now that I've changed the tags, and hopefully aligned the
> textareas, something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!)
>
> Now the last textarea on the form page is aligning right, and try what I
may
> I can't bring it back. Can you see where I'm doing something wrong?
>
> And re the links on the calendar page - any thoughts on why they're not
> clickable?
>
> - susie
>
>
> On 14/5/07 11:05 AM, "John Faulds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I'm not seeing the problems as you describe - the content appears in
the
>> same place in FF & IE6 on both pages. There are couple of other
problems
>> in IE6 though: on the form page, your textareas are aligned right and
not
>> with the text above them and on the calendar page, none of the links in
>> the left nav are clickable.
>>
>> You're also using legends incorrectly. There should only be one legend
per
>> fieldset which describes all the fields. The text associated with each
>> textarea should be in a  tag instead.
>>
>> On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:27:46 +1000, Susie Gardner-Brown
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi again
>>>
>>> Still on the same website ...
>>>
>>> Apparently on a couple of pages in IE6, the main content isn¹t
starting
>>> till
>>> after the end of the leftnav div ­ ie. Further down the page. It is
fine
>>> in
>>> IE7 and Firefox. And fine on Firefox and Safari on the Mac. The pages
>>> concerned have either got a form, or else a large graphic near the top
of
>>> the content area.
>>>
>>> Example pages:
>>>
>>> http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/feedback.html
>>> Or
>>> http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/calendar/January.html
>>>
>>> Anyone know what the fix is for this?
>>>
>>> I wish there was one website where you could go and look up all the
>>> individual fixes for things ... I tend to learn things, and then
forget
>>> them
>>> if I don¹t use them again quickly, so have to keep asking!!
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> susie
>>>
>>>
>>> ***
>>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> ***
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] IE6 problem

[Sam Sherlock]

Hi,

something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!)


and always when you least need it :)

you could try

textarea {
margin-left: -200px; /* though this would be best in an
IE-fixit.cssstylesheet using ie conditional comments */
width: 70%;
height: 12em;
font-family: helvetica, arial, geneva, sans-serif;

}


and the calendar is clickable for me in both firefox and inferior explorer

of course - someone may propose a more appropriate solution.

- S

On 14/05/07, Susie Gardner-Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Thanks again John. I had to rely on someone else to tell me about IE6 and
that's what she said. Obviously something else for her!

And thanks for your info on my incorrect use of forms (!)

However ...Now that I've changed the tags, and hopefully aligned the
textareas, something else has cropped up. (Doesn't it always?!)

Now the last textarea on the form page is aligning right, and try what I
may
I can't bring it back. Can you see where I'm doing something wrong?

And re the links on the calendar page - any thoughts on why they're not
clickable?

- susie


On 14/5/07 11:05 AM, "John Faulds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm not seeing the problems as you describe - the content appears in the
> same place in FF & IE6 on both pages. There are couple of other problems
> in IE6 though: on the form page, your textareas are aligned right and
not
> with the text above them and on the calendar page, none of the links in
> the left nav are clickable.
>
> You're also using legends incorrectly. There should only be one legend
per
> fieldset which describes all the fields. The text associated with each
> textarea should be in a  tag instead.
>
> On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:27:46 +1000, Susie Gardner-Brown
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Hi again
>>
>> Still on the same website ...
>>
>> Apparently on a couple of pages in IE6, the main content isn¹t starting
>> till
>> after the end of the leftnav div ­ ie. Further down the page. It is
fine
>> in
>> IE7 and Firefox. And fine on Firefox and Safari on the Mac. The pages
>> concerned have either got a form, or else a large graphic near the top
of
>> the content area.
>>
>> Example pages:
>>
>> http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/feedback.html
>> Or
>> http://www.tedi.uq.edu.au/CDIP/calendar/January.html
>>
>> Anyone know what the fix is for this?
>>
>> I wish there was one website where you could go and look up all the
>> individual fixes for things ... I tend to learn things, and then forget
>> them
>> if I don¹t use them again quickly, so have to keep asking!!
>>
>> Cheers
>> susie
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> ***
>
>



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Re: [WSG] Floating Divs Over Flash

[Sam Sherlock]

wmode="transparent" is something you want to look at

earlier versions of safari does not support that, also you have issues if
there is active content in the flash which competes for space with active
content in divs that over lap.

I would curb your enthusiasm as much as possible so as not to get carried
away, keep is simple

On 30/04/07, John Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Hello,



Does anyone have any experience floating HTML elements over Flash via
absolutely-positioned divs?  I know that this is possible with the most
up-to-date browsers, but I'm not aware of how wise this is in terms of
backward-compatibility.  Can anyone point to successful examples of this?



Thanks,

John



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Re: [WSG] flash z-index conflict

[Sam Sherlock]

I came across this the other day also . Since flash was colliding with 
my use of sweet titles.


I was advised to set wmode to transparent, I works I am not begruding 
that but is there
any logic to this. Surley wmode would just allow you to see through the 
flash object if set
to transparent. Are there any draw backs to using wmode=transparent?  I 
thought flash
was displayed above the browser via the system and this was why flash 
content was always

displayed above other content.

is this just one of those odd things sent to  try us??

Peter Ottery wrote:


Ted wrote:
-- > my lovely flash movie thinks it's the coolest thing on the planet
and wants to sit on top of my lovely dropdown box.

in the html code that calls your  flash movie, add this:

let us know how you go
pete ottery
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[WSG] Invisable Text (only in IE)

[Sam Sherlock]

Hi,


A while back I made a site which had invisable text in IE, this was not 
intended I could


not figure out why either I had never seen it before nor since until it 
happened on Snook.ca



Below is a screen shot from an article on snook.  I have cropped the 
same area of the screen in


three different shots.  The first is how the page loads can''t see the 
text, next text appears after


selecting, (notice the title in green partly revealed) and in the next 
shot its all there.



Also if you alt tab away from the browser page and then back its gone 
again!!



This is crazy.  I thought I had made a sloppy mistake though I was sure 
I had'nt, is there a name for this bug


is there a way to resolve it for those users who (ignorantly) persist 
with inferior explorer?



here the screen shot link

http://s107442706.websitehome.co.uk/ie_text_madness.png


atb - Sam
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[WSG] prevent cropping of a div

[Sam Sherlock]

I have a wrapper div containing a base display I want the base display 
to extend to


the full height of document or screen which ever is greater


However the background image in the base display is cropped when 
scrolling is required
this only occurs in FF, Safari and Opera - not in IE.  I have tried 
using borders instead of
background image on the base display no avail. 


I am seeking the impossible??

link below, have checked the mark & css both are vaild.


http://www.danceordie.co.uk/v7/index7.html



thanks in advance - Sam

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[WSG] web developer toolbar for IE!!!!

[sam sherlock]

I have just installed the web developer tool bar for internet explorer


http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=e59c3964-672d-4511-bb3e-2d5e1db91038&displaylang=en



its gonna come in real handy for me, I have'nt seen a post on WSG


atb - S

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Re: [WSG] best way to style addresses

[sam sherlock]

Example:


Newsletter editor
J.R. Brown
8723 Buena Vista, Smallville, CT 01234
Tel: +1 (123) 456 7890




with whatever styling provided by CSS you care for.


for more details see the link below

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html



tee wrote:


Hi there,

I am working on a page that involves with hundred of address in  
different locations/cities. What is the best way to do?

unordered list,  definition list  or  table data?

I am thinking to make two columns for address. Did a similar page  
sometimes ago with unordered list with two columns floated, because  
some address are 4 lines, some are 3, the result wasn't good.


Thanks!

tee
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Re: [WSG] IE on the MAC is history

[sam sherlock]

   "The current version of IE for Macs is effectively
three
years old, making it an outdated browser compared to its Windows
equivalent."

like the current version of IE on windows is not outdated?!


Richard Stephenson wrote:

  Well you have probably all heard about this already but Microsoft is
stopping support for IE on the Mac.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4542750.stm
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/internetexplorer/internetexplorer.aspx?pid=internetexplorer
http://www.webstandards.org/

but does it mean we can stop coding for it now or if not how long do
we carry on?

Richard Stephenson

--
DonkeyMagic: Website design & development
http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk
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[WSG] HTML Color Combo Chooser - extremely well made

[sam sherlock]

no need for replies just thought this would be of use to many of you



http://www.siteprocentral.com/cgi-bin/feed/feed.cgi



all the best - S

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[WSG] Hacks / Work Arounds for IE Mac and Old er IE Pc versions

[sam sherlock]

I have noticed that
some repeated background are not displaying in IE 5.5 since everything
else works I was wondering if the background issue could be resolved?


Also the perspective
from IE Mac is messy the styles are not applied or have obscure
results.  I am not on mac so testing is a little harder


I believe that in other
circumstances everything works fine




the link is
www.phuturetrax.co.uk/v1/home/ - takes you straight in 




I would be interested
to hear suggestions on methods for improving display across platformss
/ browsers
    - IE Mac - OS9
    - IE Mac - OSX
    - other OS X
broswers (I think everything works fine)
    

I was thinking of using an overriding style sheet for IE Mac using the
following hack 


/* IE5/Mac Only Styles
   Uses the IE5/Mac Band Pass Filter:
   http://stopdesign.com/examples/ie5mac-bpf/
--- */
/*\*//*/
  @import url("ie5mac.css");
/**/

what are the groups thoughts on this hack? does it work? is there a better way?



Thanks in advance, Sam S

Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds

[sam sherlock]

or so sublte its unnoticable and it increases the overall complexity of 
the site


>SS


kvnmcwebn wrote:


'And I agree Sam, having movement like that behind text is one of the 
worst
things you can do.'

I think that was meant as an example.
If this trick is used in a more ambiant way it could be really useful.
Maybe just have some image substitution for opera until a solution is found.


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Re: [WSG] IFR- what is the latest version?

[sam sherlock]

Any site using sIFR in FF cramps the text into an unreadable mass, the
flash is not used and I am left with illegible text
I have flash block installed, sIFR detects flash block and does not
display the flash.  The css leaves he text unreadable
is this only me?




Drake, Ted C. wrote:

  Hi All
I have a quick question.
I am looking for the latest version of using flash to replace header text.

Is this the best approach? My feeble mind remembers an improved version out
there in standardista-space.
http://www.shauninman.com/plete/2004/04/ifr-revisited-and-revised

Thanks
Ted
www.tdrake.net

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Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!

[sam sherlock]

Hi,

Just to put the cat amongst the peigons - some of the points raised are 
valid IMHO.

and by the by so is the mark up. I think he is off mark on the use of styles

"My position is about temperance" - moderation

"‘reality in the field’ and not some ivory-tower specification" - the 
reality and work arounds required to compensate for differences in 
implementation

CSS Hacks for example

The Web Standards have yet to be properly implemented in the majority of 
the browsers BEING USED - namely Internet Explorer
this is partly why I dub IE inferior explorer, naughty-scape a fraise I 
seldom use since netscape 4.X is a beast rarely encountered in the wild


Since when are using Floats for page-level layout, semantically correct?
I disagree with him here, since floating is applied by style and is 
separate from content

I think this is a contracdiction since previouly

To not use CSS - rather I am saying to use it when it makes sense…
and in the case of floating to style the layout I would say that this is 
appropriate use of style - using it here "makes sense"


his contracdiction continues
"margins... to create page-level layouts. Again, like floats, this is 
semantically incorrect, just like HTML tables"
the point of style - the junk/old skool use is shims / transparent gif - 
I don't like such sites even when I make 'em



Some times designers can procrastinate & pontificate over semantics (and 
many other things) delaying the sites completion

inflating the cost.




Rob Wilson  Says:
September 26th, 2005 at 3:52 am 
 



The real point lost in the standards debate is that everyone just wants 
things to work properly and consistently.


my clients do, I do, visitors to sites I make do

Mac IE such a pain, with standards css layouts - Hacks ahoy me lad!

Win IE - what a pain

Producing visual consistantly is a long road with tables+shims

Using CSS I find things always crop up. odd spaces here and there - a 
short road, can become a long road.



Marco  Says:
September 26th, 2005 at 4:56 am 
 




- lighter in amount of code
- easy to read on other devices than PC’s with browsers
- more accessible
- much better search engine optimized from the ground up


I agree with this also, its a pain when formating gone bad in a browser 
often IE Mac/Win


Rooting out the problem in the CSS to hack compliance is tedious & 
stressful client wants it done yesterday




Joshua Street  Says:
September 26th, 2005 at 5:05 am 



CSS bears no meaning, it’s just a presentational hook

explains where he is off base on the CSS - its the hack thats madness 
and often more tricky than table + shims


Clients see competitiors sites with tables and when they see them on any 
browser they are consistent (sometimes consistantly bad!! IMHO but 
consistent



Stefan Mischook  Says:
September 26th, 2005 at 10:47 am 
 



*What is broken (in a pratical sense,) with the Web Standards?*

1. 60% to 80% of the browsers being used are buggy when it comes to CSSP 
techniques we have to use.
2. The model for positioning with CSS is now weak. I can’t wait for the 
CSS3 multi-column spec to come of age.




but browser uptake will be somewhere behind. and putting a message for 
users this site looks better in a standards compliant browser is just as
annnoying (to the user & in turn the site owner) as this site looks 
better in ie




since this is a discussion list I thought we might discuss the points


atb - Sam







Herrod, Lisa wrote:


I think he's really just trying to stir up something controversial and
attract people to his site.

Surely anyone who was really serious about their own reputation and business
would actually think about what they were saying, and research their
point(less) before posting it... wouldn't they?


-Original Message-
From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 8:44 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd
newsletter!



 


-Original Message-
From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:44 PM

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another 
nerd newsletter!


Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article

The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has 
gone too far. 

Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds

[sam sherlock]

I thought it was not possible, since flash is suppose to be rendered 
outside the browser and place on top by the OS

at least for windows anyway.

I use flash some times and am not dead against it, I viewed you example 
in disbelief not expecting it to work


I did in IE.

I think it would in FF, but I have flash blocker install (I don't like 
flash always)


It also did in Opera too


Having said that its a really Bad idea to progress and use it in a 
site.  I expect your going to get alarmed responses to this post


Buzy backgrounds make text hard to read. simple fact.

Movement is buzy.  The question this post also raises in when is it time 
to tell the client that they are asking for something that is

detremental to the site overall.

heres a list of people I consider when making a site

   1. The User
   2. Site Owner
   3. Site Maintainer


anyway it was interesting, off the wall aswell,

atb - S


Jon Dawson wrote:


Hello all,

I read recently that it wasn't possible to have flash backgrounds so I thought 
I'd give it a go. Turns out it is possible but it won't work in Opera and I'm 
curious as to why it won't.


http://www.jomni.com/sandbox/flash_bg/

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Jon
 



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Re: [WSG] IE problem with

[sam sherlock]

You can leave out the xml prolog, its IE messing things up again (yet
again - over and over)

if you choose to put it in IE (aka inferior explorer) will use
quirksmode and ignore all mannor of things such as absolute
positioning, and a whole raft of other things, other compliant browsers
will be fine and respond according to the rule book.


sam



Duncan Stigwood wrote:

  HELP!

Tidy puts in 

which I think I understand is the Document Character Set, i.e. V. important.

However having it in my document makes IE screw up all absolute positioning!!

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks guys
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Re: [WSG] Sliced Image Dilema

[sam sherlock]

I think your question should be rephrazed a little

table based sliced image html (as seen in david seaguls book Killer
Websites)

Vs

Webstandard 'Tableless' CSS design

table based sliced image layout

pros
    easy to produce consistant layout
    may even use images instead of text (at the expense of accessibilty)

cons (too many to list)
    inaccessiable
    large file sizes (hence longer to download, greater cost of
ownership etc)
    ...

Webstandard 'Tableless' CSS design
   
pros (too many to list)
    seach engines crawl the site and index information more
appropriately
    greater file economy (elements can be reused, many elements can be
removed)
    seperation of style and content (makes managing the site really
simple.  Really, really simple)
    present the same page of mark up to various devices (eg Desktops,
handhelds, phones, PDA)
    ...

cons
    older defunked browsers on anceint machines display unformatted
information (even this has its advantages)
    requires a little more attension in production stages (this depend
on who elaborate the design is)

atb > Sam



Jeff D. Reid wrote:

  Can anyone here please post urls to some reading regarding the use of sliced 
images in building a website vs using CSS instead.  Kind of a "pros and cons" 
type of paper.
 
Thanks
 
Jeff D. Reid
 
MIS Department
Davitt-Hanser Music Company
Cincinnati, OH
 
http://www.bcrich.com
http://www.kustom.com
http://www.olpguitars.com
 
Owner
ROMDev
Cincinnati, OH
 
http://www.romdev.com
http://www.patandjeff.com
 
"A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human 
history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." -Mitch Ratliffe-
  

Re: [WSG] A web site programming question

[sam sherlock]

Hi,


You should check out
the creamweaver task force sit


There are a number of
adjustments and customisations you'll need to make



http://webstandards.org/act/campaign/dwtf/


atb> Sam



Angus at InfoForce
Services wrote:
I
do not know if this is off topic for this list. Just incase please
reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Thank you.
  
  
I am a web site designer that hand codes with EditPlus and like to
build header and footer files (basic template(. I am about to start
working with an individual that uses FrontPage for web site design. I
am not impressed with WYSIWYG editors and FrontPage even less. I am
looking at purchaseing DreamWeaver for future web site design. What
would be your advice to ensure that everything meets web standards?
  
  
Angus MacKinnon
  
MacKinnon Crest Saying
  
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
  
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
  
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
  
Choroideremia Research Foundation Canada Inc. 1st Vice President
  
http://www.choroideremia.org
  
  
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Re: [WSG] a few more issues with page layout with definition list

[sam sherlock]

i spotted this in the css

div#thumbnailheaders dt dd {float:right; width:100px;}

should'nt it be 


div#thumbnailheaders dl dd {float:right; width:100px;}

atb>Sam


Rachel Radford wrote:


There are many ways of making a css rule so that different browsers see it
differently (do a google search for css filters...) but the way I do it
would  be like this:

div#maincontent_image{/*used as a holder and placement for main images which
appear on a page*/
float:left;
width:214px;
height:366px;
border-right:1px solid #333;
margin:0 1.5em 0 0;/*top margin for IE*/
background-color:#363;
}

div#maincontent>div#maincontent_image{/*for FF*/
margin-top:-1.14em;
}

Because IE doesn't understand the > child selector so it will ignore that
rule.

It's looking mint in FF!  Good work!!


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bruce Gilbert
Sent: Friday, 5 August 2005 10:25 a.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] a few more issues with page layout with definition list

On 8/4/05, Rachel Radford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 


Hi Bruce,
It's looking good but quite different between FF and IE...

Try putting a negative top margin on the image with the hand and key...
   


that
 


should fix that problem for Firefox. But you might need to make it
conditional so that IE 6 won't do it too.  From a design point of view
perhaps a background colour on the div id="maincontent_image" so that you
don't get the green colour below the image and so you create a visual
column??
   



Hey Rachel and group,

thanks for the tip about the neg. margin. Looks good in FF now but it
did mess up IE. What would a conditional statement for IE 6 consist
of?

here is the CSS in question:

div#maincontent_image{/*used as a holder and placement for main images
which appear on a page*/
float:left;
width:214px;
height:366px;
border-right:1px solid #333;
margin:-1.14em 1.5em 0 0;
background-color:#363;
}

http://www.wealthdevelopmentmortgage.com/test/test_file_home.htm
http://www.wealthdevelopmentmortgage.com/test/WDM.css
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Re: [WSG] Flash and Standards

[sam sherlock]

I have been using FlashObject for sometime now, indeed I have posted 
here before asking what members of the list think of the technique.


You may be interested to know that makepovertyhistory.org uses the 
flashObject technique, as an alternative there is also ufo


http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/ufo/


atb>S


Bruce wrote:


http://blog.deconcept.com/flashobject/
Typically, I found this 2 minutes after sending above, is this the answer to 
flash and standards?

Thanks in advance
Bruce Prochanu
BKDesign Solutions


   - Original Message -
   *From:* Bruce 
   *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
   *Sent:* Friday, August 05, 2005 5:19 PM
   *Subject:* [WSG] Flash and Standards

   Hi all,

   I'm sure this has been covered someplace, but when actually running into it

   on a busy schedule...you know the rest.

   A simple flash button for audio, from wimpy.

   Validator says:
   There is no attribute for:
   

   Bruce Prochnau

   BKDesign Solutions

 





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Re: [WSG] firefox for OS9?

[sam sherlock]

As far as I know web browsers for os9 are limited

however against my expectations you should be able to get a build of 
firefox / mozilla

here
http://www.mozilla.org/download.html (scroll to the bottom of the page)

safari & camino are only supported in osX as far as I know.

atb > Sam

Drake, Ted C. wrote:


Sorry for a possibly off-topic post.  We have a client on our intranet that
needs to look at our site on OS9.2.  I couldn't find information on the
Firefox web site about compatibility with this platform. Does anyone know
where I could send this person for more advice?

I did find the Opera version for her.
http://www.opera.com/download/index.dml?platform=mac&ver=6.03

I'd like to give her both options.  Is there a Safari version for OS9?

Thanks

You can send a response off-list to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Ted
www.tdrake.net 
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Re: [WSG] Firefox float/clear:both ¿bug?

[sam sherlock]

Hi

I have been using the following:

/* clear this fix */
.clearThis:after {
   content: "."; 
   display: block; 
   height: 0; 
   clear: both; 
   visibility: hidden;

}
/* Hides from IE-mac \*/
* html .clearThis {height: 1%;}
/* End hide from IE-mac */

more information at

http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html

odd behavior in safari

Julián Landerreche wrote:



If I remove the second rule (or remove the set of properties), the 
page is displayed correctly.



No, it doesnt display correctly
It seems that the empty div must have some content (like ".") to clear 
the floated div.

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Re: [WSG] circodeliaproducciones.com - thoughts on this site

[sam sherlock]

thanks for the responses, agreed that the header navigation is odd, 
should be easy to alter though


as should the odd order of the headers

I find myself often using pixel sizes for fonts, a habit I am trying to 
break
(honest - an owen briggs article will help me plus a few google searchs 
and of course time)


personally I find it strange that he has choosen to use both sIFR and 
flashObject



atb Sam

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:


sam sherlock wrote:


I happened acrosss this site on stylegala.

http://www.circodeliaproducciones.com/


I would like to know what the list members think of the site...



Looking good in some browsers - but can't take any stress.

- My Firefox doesn't like it.
- Opera 8... not too bad.
- Relying on font-sizes in pixels (mostly) which breaks badly in IE/win
(and in all other browsers also, of course) if visitors like to have
some say in the matter.

- I regard this as misuse of headlines:
Home .01


...should have been a list, IMO.

---

Conclusion: this looks like a page that hasn't been tested well across
browser-land. Might have turned out a lot better if it were...

regards
Georg



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Re: [WSG] circodeliaproducciones.com - thoughts on this site

[sam sherlock]

its not very in depth piece of critism,

the site users flash (which may be why you don't like it)
I find that clients like flash ask for it and demand it, they don't know 
of webstandards


i am researching method of marrying the two disciplines (and indeed the 
wider array of web disciplines)


I have also found this UFO

http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/ufo/

which impresses me greatly - silent javascript

different sites require different techniques every site i make uses 
flash - I don;t want this to be at the expense of webstandards and the 
benefits they behold


I strive fourth with my aims and research


can members be descriptive with critism? please

many thanks Sam


David Laakso wrote:


sam sherlock wrote:


I happened acrosss this site on stylegala.

http://www.circodeliaproducciones.com/


I would like to know what the list members think of the site



Not much.


critism / praise and other comments

atb - Sam



Regards,
David Laakso









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Re: [WSG] circodeliaproducciones.com - thoughts on this site

[sam sherlock]

it looks unformated with styles disabled, as do any css driven sites, 
specifically what looks awful?


I think the only issue with css turned off is that the logo is a 
transparent gif which looks bad on white bkgd


everything else looks fine to me (as far as unformated goes)


any other thoughts,
S

Zulema wrote:

I think it's great, but it looks awful with CSS turned off :S. Works 
fine w/o JavaScript. It prints ok too.

One page I tested had errors.
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//www.circodeliaproducciones.com/circodelia_producciones_artisticas_trabajos_clientes.php 



ciao,
Zulema

Z u l e m a  O r t i z
w e b  d e s i g n e r
email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
website : http://zoblue.com/
weblog : http://blog.zoblue.com/
browser : http://getfirefox.com/


sam sherlock wrote:


I happened acrosss this site on stylegala.

http://www.circodeliaproducciones.com/


I would like to know what the list members think of the site critism 
/ praise and other comments


atb - Sam

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[WSG] circodeliaproducciones.com - thoughts on this site

[sam sherlock]

I happened acrosss this site on stylegala.

http://www.circodeliaproducciones.com/


I would like to know what the list members think of the site critism / 
praise and other comments


atb - Sam

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Re: [WSG] Site Check Win 2000

[sam sherlock]

bullet proof here also



Dean | eCreate wrote:


If anybody out there has Win 2000 running IE6 could you check this URL:



I am getting one report that it is loading but then hanging up IE.

Thanks,

Dean

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Re: [WSG] javascript question - body onload events question

[sam sherlock]

I believe that you need to do something like the following
window. {
  stripe('playlist', '#fff', '#edf3fe');
}
atb S

Drake, Ted C. wrote:

  Hi All
I've been trying to get a straight answer for this question from our
_javascript_ person but haven't gotten it yet. I hope this is on-topic.

Many of us are already using the great Zebra Tables from Alistapart.com
It requires an onload event for the body tag and to include a link to the
_javascript_ file. This in itself is easy enough. However, our current site
unfortunately has the body tag in an include. This would mean every page
would have the body onload event whether or not it had a link to the
_javascript_ file and/or a table worth striping.

Here are my questions for you.

1. Does it hurt to have an onload event without a link to the _javascript_?
This assumes we add the link on pages that need it. 
2. Are there any performance issues if the body onload event is added and
the link to the _javascript_ is added, yet the page has no table worth
striping?  This particular script is common enough to be analyzed. But in
general is this an issue?

I need to make a decision on this as soon as possible and any help is much
appreciated. 

The pages are html tag soup. We are beginning our conversion with semantic
coding of the content and new projects are using XHTML 1.0 transitional.

Thanks again.
 
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Re: [WSG] clearfixing

[sam sherlock]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Rowan Lewis wrote:


Or how about the much simpler more correct method?

http://www.quirksmode.org/css/clearing.html



is there something wrong with standards mode?

dwain



thanks to all you sugestions on this 1 - great help

atb > Sam
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[WSG] clearfixing

[sam sherlock]

I found this CSS on a site www.kiss100.com quite interested to know how it 
behaves in browsers, though it is heavy javascript

I often use a .reset class which i gather is to serve the same purpose via a 
different approach.

.clearfix:after {

content: "."; 

display: block; 

height: 0; 

clear: both; 


visibility: hidden;

} 


.clearfix {

display: inline-block;

}  


/* Holly Hack Targets IE Win only \*/

* html .clearfix {height: 1%;}

.clearfix {display: block;}

/* End Holly Hack */

the reset class that i have been using

intention is to put a minimal size block below a container and have other 
containers flow below that without a great deal of space
or bumping

.reset {

	display: block; 

	clear: both; 

	font-size: 1px; 

	height: 1px; 

	line-height: 1px; 


margin: 0;

}


I notice that I am having a few troubles with ie5.5 which I think are fixable


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Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?

[sam sherlock]

further more part of my stratergy is too use some kind of php sniffer
script

like http://phpsniff.sourceforge.net/ - not straying out of the remit
of this list check the following stats produced 


  

  property_name
  return value


  ua
  mozilla/5.0 (windows; u;
windows nt 5.0; en-us; rv:1.7.8) gecko/20050511 firefox/1.0.4


  browser
  fx


  long_name
  firefox


  version
  1.0.4


  maj_ver
  1


  min_ver
  .0.4


  letter_ver
  
  


  _javascript_
  1.5


  platform
  win


  os
  2k


  session cookies
  Unknown


  stored cookies
  Unknown


  ip
  80.44.177.228


  language
  en-us,en


  gecko
  20050511


  gecko_ver
  1.7.8

  





  

  html
  true


  images
  true


  frames
  true


  tables
  true


  java
  true


  plugins
  true


  css2
  true


  css1
  true


  iframes
  true


  xml
  true


  dom
  true


  hdml
  false


  wml
  false

 
  $client->has_quirk(quirk)


  must_cache_forms
  true


  avoid_popup_windows
  false


  cache_ssl_downloads
  false


  break_disposition_header
  false


  empty_file_input_value
  false


  scrollbar_in_way
  false

 
  $client->browser_is(browser)


  gecko1.3+
  true


  aol
  false


  ie6+
  false


  mz1.3+
  false


  ns7+
  false


  op6+
  false

 
  $client->language_is(language)


  en
  true


  en-us
  true


  fr-ca
  false

 
  $client->is(search)


  b:ns7-
  false


  l:en-us
  true

  


all information gathered with out any need of _javascript_ etc this way
it will be easy to check against alist of naughty bad browsers


Bret Lester wrote:

  Curious--how do you check for DOM?

BL
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of designer
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:00 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?

Hi All,

I actually put a non Dom counter on one of my sites a few months ago, to

check how relevant it was in this particular case.  The site is a 
holiday letting agency, so the users are of all kinds and from all IT 
levels.  (But mostly English).

You can see the detailed stats showing the 'old browser' users here: 

 
http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=nondom

and it's interesting to see how that compares to the 'modern browser 
hits. The following data is for the last four months and shows the 
number of users (not pages) for Dom and nonDom:


Month
	Dom
	NonDom
April
	494
	7
May
	516
	3
June
	494
	6
July
	191
	2


I presume that the figures are reliable enough and I expect these 
figures to be representative of sites which are not 'specialist'.

I found it interesting, so I thought some of you may do too, esp in view

of this recent discussion.

Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk




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Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?

[sam sherlock]

it was eariler in the discussion

>Bob McClelland 
>www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk  wrote:



>if (!document.getElementById)
>   {window.location="/v4/?dom=false"}




Bret Lester wrote:


Curious--how do you check for DOM?

BL


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of designer
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:00 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?

Hi All,

I actually put a non Dom counter on one of my sites a few months ago, to

check how relevant it was in this particular case.  The site is a 
holiday letting agency, so the users are of all kinds and from all IT 
levels.  (But mostly English).


You can see the detailed stats showing the 'old browser' users here: 



http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=nondom

and it's interesting to see how that compares to the 'modern browser 
hits. The following data is for the last four months and shows the 
number of users (not pages) for Dom and nonDom:



Month
Dom
NonDom
April
494
7
May
516
3
June
494
6
July
191
2


I presume that the figures are reliable enough and I expect these 
figures to be representative of sites which are not 'specialist'.


I found it interesting, so I thought some of you may do too, esp in view

of this recent discussion.

Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk




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Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?

[sam sherlock]

Thanks for the responses.

I agree with the points being made so far I am relucant to maintain two 
sites
(actually I am using PHP to rebuild the junk from the XHTML semantic 
site and will be adding a full flash version too :) but this is not a 
php list )


Bert Doorn wrote:
Why?  What benefit does anyone (developer, site owner, 1 visitor in a 
million) gain from that junk HTML?


Its down to what users are expecting really.  The site owner and visitor 
are not expecting  a plain unformated site


Bert Doorn wrote:
Just hide the CSS they don't understand and give them a plain-vanilla 
site.  They'll get used to it as more and more sites go down that path.

I hope we get there soon


Bob McClelland  wrote:
You can easily chack if someone's browser has DOM support...

and this will redirect the user to an alternative html file of your 
choice:  some folk suggest that the user upgrades and provides  link(s)  
accordingly, some redirect to a basic page.


However, in the long run, it isn't worth it, as the others have said.  
Just let the page degrade gracefully in old browsers.



---

new resolution

Basic Splash Page that degrades (though in my case it can't degrade too 
much) directing the user to a site more suited to them (with some PHP 
trickery and a list of Bad Browsers)
I don't want to emabrk upon a a tangent taking us off the focus of this 
list, lets say I had a list of known bad browsers and they get put to 
Junk/Old Skool site and all others go to the full xhtml experience 
(others later can view the full flash experience)


Since this is a music media site the main user base are expecting glitz 
n glamour, bells n whisltes a plenty.  Not giving them this is against 
the wishes of the site owner.


The other alternative is to rule out webstandards for thhis project.  
which woul mean ruling out the benefits also - site owner would enjoy 
these, as would visitor, as would I



atb egar to see what you think > S



Bert Doorn wrote:


G'day

What I would like to be able to do is detect to see if the user has 
the proper support
for web standards and if not redirect them to a version of the site 
using old skool junk HTML



Why?  What benefit does anyone (developer, site owner, 1 visitor in a 
million) gain from that junk HTML?


Owen Briggs used a style class named .ahem set to display: hidden 
which links user to alternative content



If a site is properly constructed with (x)html, it will be accessible 
in IE/NN4 (and perhaps older versions).  Give them working, accessible 
content without frills, rather than bending over backwards to give 
them something that looks the same but is an awful mess in the engine 
compartment.


of course i am seeking to make this whole thing graceful and silent, 
ie users don't have to be aware or made

aware of thier inefior browser just get redirected.
So I am wondering:
   what the WSG members think of the idea?



I am but one member and can't speak for the others, but I think it a 
waste of time.  Why maintain two separate versions (or 3 if you throw 
in a "text only" version) when one will do?


Just hide the CSS they don't understand and give them a plain-vanilla 
site.  They'll get used to it as more and more sites go down that path.


Regards



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[WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?

[sam sherlock]

What I would like to be able to do is detect to see if the user has the 
proper support
for web standards and if not redirect them to a version of the site 
using old skool junk HTML


---
Owen Briggs used a style class named .ahem set to display: hidden which 
links user to alternative content


http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/index.html

--

of course i am seeking to make this whole thing graceful and silent, ie 
users don't have to be aware or made

aware of thier inefior browser just get redirected.

So I am wondering:
   what the WSG members think of the idea?
   has something like this been made?


atb Sam


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Re: [WSG] Flash and valid XHTML

[sam sherlock]

Hi All,

I have been using flashObject for some time now

I have heard that satay does not display the object until the movie is 
loaded
also I have found it to be quite hard to work with, and flash object is 
soo simple


I strated a thread a while ago asking if anyone knew of / could find any 
draw backs of the flashObject method

no body had a bad word to say about it (the thread followed another tangent)

www.makepovertyhistory.org - is using flashObject below is an snippet of 
mark up from the site I have added comments





Come to Edinburgh - Click here to find out 
more.

// 



http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/

for all the dreamweaverers out there you can get a widget plugin for 
FlashObject


what do you peeps think of this method?

keen to hear response >> Sam



designer wrote:


Hi Erwin,

I always use a method suggested to me by Bert Doorn which so far has 
worked fine:


type="application/x-shockwave-flash">

   
   
   
   
 

you'll note that you can put a graphic there for those who don't want 
Flash, or indeed you can include a link/prompt to download the player.


I like it because it's so simple, AND it validates xhtml strict.

Hope this helps . . .

Bob McClelland
Cornwall (U.K.)


Erwin Heiser wrote:


Hi all,

So far I¹ve been able to avoid using Flash but a site I¹m working on 
uses a

few flash elements (like a slideshow).
I¹ve been googling around but besides the alistapart article on 
Flash-Satay
I¹ve not been able to find another method of embedding flash in a 
page so

that it still validates.
Does anyone with more flash experience have any suggestions?
(I'd like the pages to validate to XHTML Strict or Transitional)
Thanks in advance,
Erwin Heiser


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Re: [WSG] Accordion style script behaviour

[sam sherlock]

I would try youngpup.net and may be shaun innman

atb Sam

Peter Ottery wrote:


i really like this "accordion" show/hide script...
http://openrico.org/demos.page?demo=ricoAccordion.html
.. and am thinking it might be useful for a really long list of FAQ's on a page.

this particular example relies on the quite sizeable 'rico' javascript/s (which 
contain a whole bunch of other behaviours - and looks amazing) but i really just 
need this one show/hide behaviour.


I know this is a pretty common behaviour - but the speed at which things develop 
in our community makes me think there is a great example out there somewhere 
that does *just* this.


anyone got an example to share?

pete

(i know next to nothing about js, hence being on the lookout for examples by the 
pros :)
 



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Re: [WSG] valid flash?

[sam sherlock]

http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/

if your not adverse to using some javascript, no ones be able to prove 
any draw backs to using this system yet


certainly much easier than merthods you re trying!!

designer wrote:


OK, I'm getting a bit confused and I need help from someone with a clear
head!

I've been comparing the method of getting valid flash suggested by Simon
Jessey with that suggested by Bert Doorn.

You can see a simple test page of the two, running side by side, at
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk/flash/

What surprises me is that the non flash content in the Jessey example works
when it's not IE you are using (certainly when it's Opera 8, which is the
only browser I use with plugins blocked). I'm also confused by the fact that
the browsercam report shows that, in IE6,  the flash plays even when the
player is not installed! see:

http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165429

So, my question:  Which is 'best' - Jessey or Doorn? And, if one or both of
them work without real problems, isn't that a big step forward that we
should all know about?

What are your feelings/findings?

Thanks for any fog-clearing input on this:-)

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk

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Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue

[sam sherlock]

Ian Fenn wrote:

  I wrote:
  
  
I tried implementing this method last week and whilst the examples worked
fine on my desktop, I couldn't get the code to work from my server.

  
  
I forgot to add that it crashed with a _javascript_ error - object expected.

All the best,

--
Ian Fenn
Chopstix Media
http://www.chopstixmedia.com/

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what browser were you using? it has a wide coverage of the various
browsers evrey time it works when I have tested it.

Re: [WSG] Flash Satay Embed Issue

[sam sherlock]

last week i poted a question on this topic asking list members what
they thought of the variousmethods of embedding flash

below is a link to flash object so far it has never failed any test
posed to it

http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/

an example site which i found to be using the flashObject method

http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/      one pf the highest profile
sites i know

i am extremeley interested to hear opinions on it.

whilst on the subject of satay i found it far to complex, and the
entire has to load so i hear - or am i wrong

SS

Ian Fenn wrote:

  Patrick wrote:
  
  

  I'm testing this on browsercam at the moment. A couple of browsers seem
  

to have issues. See:


  http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165026
  

Those are known issues of the Satay method, some of which are even
outlined in the original ALA article

www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/

  
  
I know - I just thought running the given example through browser.com might
help someone.

All the best,

--
Ian Fenn
Chopstix Media
http://www.chopstixmedia.com/

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Re: [WSG] make poverty history website

[sam sherlock]

This tangent has gotten quite interesting and turned out to be very
informative indeed

here is a basic prototype of a site I am making, still early doors yet

http://s107442706.websitehome.co.uk/kos5/flash/

I am using flashObject to place the swf in the page. users with a
version of flash less than 6 or with _javascript_ disabled see an
informative message linking them to appropriate content for thier
configuration system set up.

My original focus of the question was what do members of the list think
of flashObject as a method of placing flash in pages?



  Standard flash code does not validate.                           
              
  
  Standard flash code does not have a fallback safety net in case
users don't have it working
  search engines can't get to content within flash movies


  pages with flashObject can be made error free (at least in terms
of validation errors)
  
  FlashObject replaces page mark up using _javascript_ and innerHTML
of a specific tag, so users see alternative content
  this alternative content is with the page mark up - therefore I
hope search engines spiders pick up with ease

Thanks to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for the comment about sIFR.  I quite agree
with you, its a text enharncer the way it works is simular to
flashObject in that it uses style selectors to replace mark up

At any rate my current analysis is that this flashObject approach
demostrated in my link above is almost fault free, or at least on the
road.  I am interested in hearing what others think and if anyone else
has an approach more suited please reveal the method.


once again thank you to all those who have participated in this
discussion so far

>>SS

Andy Budd wrote:

  I can't see what the point is.  The W3C has
no control over Java or many other technologies that are proprietry or
closed, but that does not stop them from becoming or meeting W3C
standards or compliance.

  
  
The original question asked why the W3C hadn't written a spec for
Flash. My answer still stands that it's not theirs to write a spec for.
  
  
However If you can show me the W3C page that details the Java spec I
may change my mind :-)
  
  
  
  
Yours
  
  
Andy Budd
  
  
http://www.andybudd.com/
  
01273 241355
  
07880 636677
  
  
Come see me speak at @Media2005 in London, England, 9-10th Jun.
  
  
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Re: [WSG] make poverty history website

[sam sherlock]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So.
On 5/19/05, Andy Budd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Nancy Johnson wrote:

Is it true that the W3C has not done a spec for Flash? If that is so
why?

Because Flash is a proprietary product!

So, the W3C is the web's standards body, and they only define 
guidelines for making official W3C technologies accessible.

And WCAG 1.0 guideline 11 also states "Use W3C technologies and 
guidelines"
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-use-w3c

It's also worth noting that, by definition, Flash cannot be 100% 
accessible (as there will always be the initial hurdle of certain 
browsing environments or assistive technologies not being able to 
understand, or hook into, a flash movie).

I appreciate what Patrick H. Lauke is saying about flash never being 100%
the thing is that flash content is highly desirable by both site owners 
and user (those that don;t have to work with it)

I originally asked for feed back from the list since the Make Poverty 
History website uses 'flashObject' to replace the innerHTML of a div 
with the flash mark up.

I feel that thhis is a nifty litlle fail safe method of using 
'proprietry' technology in pages, features can be built around the use 
of flashObject to give users the option of no flash content

My question is focussed on the following question:
   Is flashObject the best method for encorperating flash into pages? 
as aposed to others plain mark up (object / embed), flash Satay, or sIFR

   I just visited the following http://web.burza.hr/ from www.linkdup.com
The thing is that clients and users want all singing all dancing sites.  
Most of my clients don't care much beyond the surface and they want the 
surface to be gleaming and polished.  I attempt to meet these 
expectations and still adhere to other aspects of site building which I 
understand the importance of

>>SS
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Re: [WSG] make poverty history website

[sam sherlock]

It all works in firefox for me. But then I have 1.0.4, also works fin in 
Opera 8 a joyful browser, better thab ff, apart from the absence of 
extensions

Just want to clarify that I did not work on the MPH site, I am using 
simular approach to them in terms of displaying flash content. I find it 
really nifty and by far the best approach

do any members of the list see any draw backs to the use of flashObject?
is there a better method of putting flash in pages?
thanks >> SS
Mike Foskett wrote:
Hi Sam,
Is there a reason why http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/video/?pageVideo=/flv/clickuk512k.flv does not display in Firefox v1.0.3 ? 

Reading the associated articles it should do, and when it doesn't it should 
display an alternative text version, though MPH probably forgot.

Mike 2k:)2 


-Original Message-----
From: sam sherlock [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 17 May 2005 17:13
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] make poverty history website

Hi List,
I visited the www.makepovertyhistory.org website last night and was pleased to 
see that the site uses Geoff Sterns FlashObject.  This seems to reaffirm my 
opinion that the flashObject method of placing flash in the page is more 
approprate than the MM object / embed code and flash satay or other technics 
used elsewhere.
I consider this to be a real world issue in developing modern websites, 
standard or otherwise since flash and rich media is often an important part of 
the build of the site (clients and user like it when it works well)
So I wanted to know what the list thinks of the flashObject technic and other 
alternatives out there?

More info can be found on Flash Object here:
http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/
Flash Satay
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/
sIFR
http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr
atb >> SS
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[WSG] make poverty history website

[sam sherlock]

Hi List,
I visited the www.makepovertyhistory.org website last night and was 
pleased to see that the site uses Geoff Sterns FlashObject.  This seems 
to reaffirm my opinion that the flashObject method of placing flash in 
the page is more approprate than the MM object / embed code and flash 
satay or other technics used elsewhere.

I consider this to be a real world issue in developing modern websites, 
standard or otherwise since flash and rich media is often an important 
part of the build of the site (clients and user like it when it works well)

So I wanted to know what the list thinks of the flashObject technic and 
other alternatives out there?


More info can be found on Flash Object here:
http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/
Flash Satay
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/
sIFR
http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr
atb >> SS
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Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?

[sam sherlock]

I would use Flash to play the audio and provide an alternative link to 
the sound file as alternative content

thanks >> SS
Stevio wrote:
I have a sound file that my client wants me to put on his web site. It 
is a radio advert that they currently have running.

The format of the file is m4a (mp4). I have used a program that 
converts it to mp3 or other formats if required.

What is the best way to go about including it on a web page, and 
keeping it standards compliant (to at least HTML 4.01 Transitional)? 
Including sound files is not something I often do, you'll be glad to 
know. I will also NOT be setting it to start playing itself, it will 
be up to the user!

Should I keep it in the m4a format or use mp3 or use something else?
I got it working with the following code:
http://www.apple.com/qtactivex/qtplugin.cab";>



http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/";>


However, it doesn't work in Firefox. I need something that will work 
in different browsers and different platforms.

Does anyone know the best way to do this?
Thanks,
Stephen

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Re: [WSG] mutli language websites

[sam sherlock]

Robin Berjon wrote:
Geoff
Deering wrote:
  
  Does anyone use transparent content
negotiation to handle multiple language sites?  I get the feeling this
is hardly ever used, if so, why not?

  
  
The problem IME is that when you use it you have to also provide a way
for the user to pick her language which will override the negotiation
(I've been accessing the Web a lot from computers localized in Japanese
recently, and they're probably not sending Accept-Language headers that
reflect the reality of languages I can really "accept" :). It's not
complicated to mix both together but the extra feature of negotiating
the default language rarely seems worth it.
  
  

I am using ip2couuntry class in PHP to decide the default lanuage.

Thanks to Evandro who sent me a link to his site in Portugese and
English.  The site in question does not use the language attribute as
inteneded (as far as I understand) all Lan attributes are set to en for
Portugese, Itallian and English.

What is the web standards best practise for multi-lingual sites


  Should I use en or en-GB is the casing important?
  What charset should I use for the Itallian version the same as
english or other?
  Are the any link available to webstandard best practise examples?

many thanks >> SS

[WSG] mutli language websites

[sam sherlock]

Hello WSG List Members,
I am delveloping a website that can switch between english and 
itallian.  I am wondering if I should be using en-GB or en-gb for my 
lang attributes
and also for the  
are these attributes sensitive to casing? or should I just have en

also is the charset iso-8859-1 OK for italian content?
I would also appreciate any links to web standard sites using multiple 
languages?

thanks in advance, Sam
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