Bernard P. Brockbank, The Living Christ, Ensign, May 1977, 26
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and a
Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions."
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sign Up for J
Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christians? New Era, May 1998, 41
Both the Book of Mormon as scripture and Joseph Smith as a prophet bear
witness to Jesus Christ as Savior. The Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl
of Great Price bear that same great witness, as do all of the modern
prophets and ap
>I confess your quotes regarding worshiping Christ are troubling with
regard
>to his verse. How do you reconcile the two?
I've got to go to bed now. I'm absolutely exhausted and sick too, again.
I'll just say that the difference between the three members of the
Godhead boils down to one fact, an
in the Church, making Christ the
> center of
> our lives. It was quietly discouraged and the material were
> withdrawn by
> the authors. Because God the Father is in fact the only authorized
> object
> of our worship.
>
> We can love, respect,hold in high esteem and ap
First Presidency Message
A Testimony of the Son of God
Ensign, December 2002
By President Gordon B. Hinckley
"We honor Him, we worship Him, we love Him as our Redeemer, the great
Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New Testament. The
entire thrust of the testimony of the Book of Mo
Bruce R. McConkie, BYU Devotional speech, 2 March 1982:
"Let us set forth those doctrines and concepts that a gracious
God has given to us in this day and which must be understood in
order to gain eternal life. They are:
"1. We worship the Father and him only and no one els
>Interesting -- I think you might have me there, at least partially, as I
was
>unaware of the GBH quote. I suppose I should have defined the term more
tightly
>and say that we don't *pray* to Jesus Christ.
Right. I can go along with this, Marc. However, you might recall that I
said earlier that t
Paul Osborne favored us with:
>What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so
>do the prophets of every dispensation.
>>Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that we don't pray to Jesus
>>Christ. We pray to the Father in the name of
I'm glad to hear that George. Keep it up. :-)
Paul O
On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 16:26:42 -0700 George Cobabe
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> geez Paul - and I was beginning to have such confidence in your
> doctrinal
> judgment.
>
> George
>
> - Original Mes
No one got back on the subject of why a man can't be a sealer in the
temple if he has been divorced even by no fault of his own. For example,
my mother a long time ago divorced my father so she could run off and be
a lesbian, hence she was excommunicated.
My father was told that he couldn't be a s
>Given what we know about God having been as man now is, does anyone have
an >opinion and/or reference on whether God was a man like you and me or
was he a man >like Jesus -- that is, did he have one or two mortal
parents? And, does it matter?
Someday Jeffry Ross's exalted son(s) will place mo
>I tend to go with the odds and believe
>that He was not likely a Savior like Jesus
A safe bet. You win.
Paul O
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There was no beginning and there will be no end, there was no first
Father and there will never be a last Father
Notive how I left out the period at the end of the above sentence?
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Marc
>We have been told to worship God the Father. Period. Not even Jesus
Christ -- God >the Father.
What do you mean we don't worship Christ? I worship Jesus Christ and so
do the prophets of every dispensation.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_
>There is much to learn. To complete the task requires an eternity on
>the job.
Not so. When God lays his hands upon my head and ordains me God Almighty
there will be nothing that I don't know. The learning process will have
ended.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Amen!
John, you and I see this thing eye to eye and agree. Isn't it great? ;-)
Paul O
On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 23:27:04 -0900 "John W. Redelfs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> God cannot sin. If he did, he would cease to be God. He cannot
> create
> something out of nothing. He cannot annihilate someth
>Saddam will go.
>
>And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.
You're not wrong this time. His days are numbered and the writing is on
the wall. I'm in favor of a war with Iraq based on what I know about the
situation.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Redelfs' Commentary: God became God by obedience to pre-existing,
>coeternal law. And if we are to become Gods we must follow the same
path
>that he took. The idea that God made up the laws by which he became God
is
>a Protestant idea. It is not the gospel.
Amen!
I can see that John has
God does what his Father did before him...
Paul O
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//
>The other doctrine, that he created all the natural laws,
>is a Protestant doctrine.
Yep, I agree with John. The laws of the universe were not invented but
have always been. There never was a first Father...
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin??
Two of my most favorites. :-)
I think had they lived a little later they would have been unfailing arms
of the prophet Joseph Smith.
Paul O
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Hi George,
I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR.
I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes
we argue a little but we learn so much. This is a list where members
really care about each other. I've only been here a couple years and the
>Paul, my dad's nephew George Cobabe says he has met your vitual self.
>He's checking up on you--so you better be good! :-)
I've enjoyed some private e-mail conversations with George off the FAIR
message board.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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tumor benign
Paul O
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//
/// ZION LIST CHARTER:
What does the following title mean?
CLU, ChFC
Paul O
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On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:42:17 -0600 Gary Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Actually, there are many Levites that have established their
> genealogies
> without a patriarchal blessing. Jews today are still rather diligent
> in
> ensuring their descendancy.
Do you mean Jews who are Levites in
Gary Smith favored us with:
>If progression between kingdoms ends up being a possibility, perhaps it
>becomes an incentive for those who desire to grow to eventually become
>celestialized. I dunno. I think that it may be possible, just that it
>would take them "worlds without end" (DC 131) to achie
On Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:29:52 -0400 Scott McGee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Yes, really! Back on Nov. 11 I fell going down my front steps,
> bouncing
> my tail bone off the bottom step and the cement, and am still having
> pain
> from it! It is so bad I can't even ride the motorcycle I got the
On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:28:51 + Chet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Ouch, Paul!
>
> Here's hoping and praying for no permanent damage (at our ages,
> those
> joints just don't snap back) and a swift recovery. In this day of
> electronic information, our typing skills are paramount.
I wen
As per above thread line:
Yeah, I am.
I damaged both of my wrists removing several nuts off of 7/8" bolts and
it is very hard and painful for me to type and to hold a mouse.
I'm learning that my body can't do what it use to do.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I look at it this way:
There are two kinds of Christians; those who have the fullness and those
who don't.
Celestial Christians = Latter-day Saints
Terrestrial Christians = Baptists, Catholics, and the rest
In this way we can believe our General Authorities when they refer to
other churches as "
On Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:11:16 -0900 "John W. Redelfs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:
> >So, until you get your eating habit under control, you aren't
> following
> >the D&C, and this means you aren't a true Christian because you
> aren't
> >followin
"There can be no real and true Christianity, even with good works, unless
we are deeply and personally committed to the reality of Jesus Christ as
the Only Begotten Son of the Father, who bought us, who purchased us in
the great act of atonement."
Spencer W. Kimball, The SaviorThe Center of Our
Tom
>Fundamentally the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a
>kingdom.
Tom, you slipped. Please remember to make the "D" small. Otherwise--great
post!
And Gary, if you don't fix the big "D" on your website I'm going to
scream and then tell your bishop!
:-o
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTE
>I too sweat profusely. I am overweight and suffer from the same sort of
>prejudice. I have had to repeatedly explain to people that the nerves
>that sense temperature are on the OUTSIDE of the fat, not the inside, so
>whether my skin indicates the temperature is high or not is not
dependant
>on my
>I think that this trumps Paul's merely "studying" about the heathens.
>Unless, of course, the bookstore (and not carrying Card or Signature
books)
>automatically disqualifies me. :-(
Speaking of me, in time, not yet, I intend to debate Brent Metcalf about
the controversies of the Joseph Smith p
>If the Book of Mormon is not historical, then the Church is false, and
>Joseph Smith was no prophet. Knowing this, Satan and his mortal
followers
>make their most sophisticated attacks upon mankind by attacking the
>historicity of the Book of Mormon.
Further more, according to my testimony I
Jon
>Don't you follow the prophet's counsel? He said that every member
should
>always have a valid temple recommend, whether or not they can get to the
>temple. Tsk, tsk! :-)
No, I don't always follow the prophet's counsel and neither do I always
do what the Lord expects of me. I have my ups a
I agree with JWR in so much as a true Christian must be a baptized member
of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and have a testimony
given by the Holy Ghost.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet A
>I'm planning to have for lunch a turkey and cheese sandwich with milk
>and a banana for desert whenever I have the need to be sharp in the
>evening.
We went out to eat on Thanksgiving. No extra turkey here.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
__
LOL!! Ha ha ha ha haha ahhaa h
On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:20:25 -0600 Gary Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> A sage plumber I once visited at his throne on a high pile, er,
> mountain
> of, er, uh, well anyway he told me that there are two secrets
> to
> plumbing:
>
> The good water comes u
A sage plumber I once visited at his throne on a high pile, er, mountain
of, er, uh, well anyway he told me that there are two secrets to
plumbing:
The good water comes up, and the dirty water goes down the hole.
Most people only mix these cardinal rules up once at most. (unless you
are rea
>Did I read this correctly? Did you say that denying yourself the
blessings
>of the temple IS the way to face problems?
>
>Inquiring minds
You guys are putting me on a guilt trip. :-(
eeesh
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Si
>There are two kinds of Christianity in the world: True Christianity and
>false Christianity. True Christianity is found only in the Church of
Jesus
>Christ of Latter-day Saints. --JWR
That's exactly right, John. If any Latter-day Saint were to join up with
any of those false Christian churc
On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:08:46 -0600 Gary Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I find that the thing that brings me the greatest peace during this
> time
> of troubles and uncertainty is being in the temple. I can leave all
> the
> terrorists, unemployment, recession, Democrats, and all the other
>
Larry talking about XXX
>The Church will, however, see that he is never given a
>calling or position of responsibility involving the youth or
>the children in the ward.
And for good reason. First, it protects children from possible harm.
Second it relieves further burden of the former perpetrat
>Fair? Who ever said life would be fair? Whoever they were, they lied!
>Life is never fair. You want to trade? You get a week in Hawaii, an
>upcoming layoff that may effect you, most of your children living
>hundreds of miles away and their mother teaching them by example that
all
>that you taught
>If I tried to make this public what could happen to me? Is this
considered
>"gossip?" and "heresay?"
I don't know about your situation but if I was close to someone whom I
was pretty sure had committed a serious sin and was not repenting I would
probably let the bishop know about it and leave
>This would be dangerous for us as any assailant could use the mace
against us.
He who is the quickest trigger puller is the winner. Survival of the
fittest in this bad world can really make a difference. Practice whipping
out your mace and give it a shot.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_
>Suppose I suspect this individual failed to disclose this information
>before baptism? If he is now living a good life, does any of this
>information need to come out?
Yes, if the original information was something that should have been
referred to the Mission President via the Zone Leaders w
>Then what about the safety of blind people who wish to travel? Truly
I'm
>beginning to wonder about our liberties.
Carry mace. I do.
Paul O
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>For those who haven't met John Redelfs but have been on the list for
some years, you >would recognize him if you met him. He is very much the
person in the flesh as I have >come to understand him via email.
Yeah, I agree.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
>Paul -
>Don't you think that it is about time to return to the House of the
Lord? I
>do believe that your outlook on life and the blessings you receive will
>improve/increase.
I agree. I'll get back to it sooner or later. Probably a little later
than sooner. In the mean time...
Paul O
[EMAIL P
>I've got a great idea! The Democrats are scrounging around for an issue
>that they could win with. How about suggesting that you would vote for
Gore
>if he promised an entitlement for everyone to get a free trip to Hawaii
is
>your income is less the $200K, to be paid for by all those who make mo
Scott
>Anyway, for any of you considering a trip to Hawaii, I highly recommend
>it. I can give you some ideas for Maui if you are headed that way too.
>(Just let me know, I'll be glad to go on and on about it if you want!)
Totally cool and you're a lucky guy! I'm sure if I got to do all that fun
> >Actually, all I was trying to ask in a general way was: Should
> >Fundamentalist Baptists be telling anyone how to run their lives?
Again, absolutely not! The Baptists need to forsake their apostate
religion, quit telling people what to do, and come to Mormonism. It is
the only way.
"I was
Thanks, Gary.
I'm trying to work through a lot of negative energy that seems to
surround me these days. Ever since 9-11 I have really taken a beating as
the events of that disaster have effected me very much and have seriously
hurt my Psyche. I have not been back to the temple since that terrible
Jim
>It is a complicated world we live in.
Indeed it is. It wasn't too long ago that a young person could commit
murder here in Dallas and walk the streets on parole in a few years.
Really. If a person is caught with LSD (acid) doing it on their own
time-- they spent more time in jail then those
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:12:26 -0800 (PST) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> My understanding is that there is no policy. I had always thought
> that God would forgive that individual for past transactions
> providing he/she goes through the process of rependence. Isn't that
> what the Gospel is all ab
>What is the general policy regarding people who
>have committed crimes in the past?
I'm clueless about the above. But I do know that a man who has been
divorced even though it was entirely the wife's fault he cannot be a
sealer in the temple.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
__
>Actually, all I was trying to ask in a general way was: Should
>Fundamentalist Baptists be telling anyone how to run their lives?
No.
Paul O
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>What do you all think of this? Should Protestant Fundamentalists be the
>ones to tell homosexuals how to live their lives?
Stacy,
We can't talk about this because it is against the charter. But to answer
your question:
I say NO.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>If you want, although we're not big pop drinkers (just the occasional
ginger ale,
>or boutique drinks like ginger beer or sarsparilla or that sort of
thing).
>Mountain Dew is caffeine-free here, incidentally (because it's
considered a
>psychoactive/medical ingredient, so our laws say the fact that
Marc
>Well, get your butt up here to God's country, and we'll see what we can
arrange!
I will someday, hopefully. Do you serve Coca Cola up there?
Paul O
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>Apparently, I have been telling my body to convert whatever muscle mass
is
>left into fat and to migrate it to the vicinity of my belt. I must be
doing
>this while I am asleep, or perhaps while I stuff much needed
carbohydrates
>into my mouth.
That's what happened to me because I'm having an op
Marc:
>I'm just saying that I for
>one, at least, didn't have the true measure of the man until I met him
in person,
>and am very glad to have had the opportunity).
Just think how wonderful it would be if you got to meet Paul Osborne!
Paul
Gary balls out Larry:
>Are you saying I'm not a list moderator? Or just that I'm temporarily
out
>of moderation? Why, them's fighting words where I come from. That's it!
>Salamis at 10 paces!
Yeah Larry, you're a very bad boy! Bend over for your spanking.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>I have endeavored to eat raw vegetables but find they really don't agree
>with me. What am I supposed to do if my family absolutely insists I eat
>them? It is questions of this nature that trouble me.
Get a vegetable steamer and lightly steam them. Steamed vegetables are
totally yummy! Use a
>My first observation still stands. :Even though we feel we need some of
>these chemicals, does it limit personal revelation? I wasn't trying to
>ridicule, only trying to figure out whether or not these things would
limit
>our ability to get personal revelation.
Personal revelation without m
>It was brought up in a larger discussion about the number of people in
the
>ward suffering from depression, and the church's change to being more
>supportive of people using drugs to overcome it.
Yep. I'm a big goof and shoot my mouth off all the time and tell people
about my problems to members
Jim,
I just read your post to my wife and she told me to tell you that you are
her hero and she has a crush on you now! She studies mental illness very
seriously.
What an excellent post!
Paul O
On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:58:46 + Jim Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
>
> My regular diatribe o
Dan:
>This very subject came up in a meeting I attended recently, and a
statistic
>was thrown out that I found rather shocking: 40% of missionaries from
North
>America are supposably on Ritalyn. Has anyone else heard this?
All three of my kids take it. I couldn't even begin to list all the
medica
Steven wrote:
>I used to believe that the "mark of the beast" certainly referred to an
>intrusive, all powerful government, which held its subjects in economic
>bondage, by forcing them to submit to some kind of microchip implant or
in
>some other manner with the number of the beast. As I've stu
>Marx brothers, I think, before veering to the west.
Ha ha ha ah .Good one!
Paul O
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Gary wisely wrote:
>Why do so many members not drink caffeine drinks?
>Because the Spirit has guided them to that decision. It becomes
>personally binding on them, but not on others who are not prepared.
I agree.
;-)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_
On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:55:36 -0600 Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz
> I want to agree with you totally, but I can relate to what Stacy is
> speaking of. For while I try not to think about sin, every so
> often
> I trip upon it--sometimes in much the same way that someone might
> step on a land mine
>do we rely on medicine instead of
>priesthood blessings and our Heavenly Father too much?
The Lord gave mankind the power to invent and find ways to help us with
our problems outside the bounds of prayers and blessings. Millions of
people who don't believe in prayer and blessings are reaping the
>The question then remains: Can we legitimately use substances which
would
>lower our anxiety level, especially if those substances are said to be
>nonaddictive?
I'll take any pills my doctors give me. Tranquilizers, anti-depressants,
or whatever!
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
__
>Well, he'll be at our place Thursday evening for dinner. I think all we
have in
>the house is orange juice, cocoa and ginger ale. I'll have to go to
SuperStore and
>get some real Jamaican ginger beer for them -- that stuff's almost
flammable
>(totally alcohol free -- flammable in the spicy sense).
>"It is possible to live in the world and not partake of the sins of the
world."
>Ezra Taft Benson--Apr 1991
>First Presidency Message "Keys to Successful Member-Missionary Work"
No. It is not possible for any of us. We are all sinners.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
JWR's assessment of the WoW is exactly how I think. It's too bad we live
so far away from each other or we could sit down and celebrate our
agreement with a Coke!
;-)
Paul O
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:15:05 + "John W. Redelfs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Because the WoW is not so much a health law
>President Hinckley, twice, say on national television that we do not
>drink soda with caffeine,
I heard it too, but he is not speaking for me or my house. I have no
problem with cokes. Everyone must make their own choice and go with it.
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
>Show your Savior how much you love Him!
I was thinking today of how awful it must have been for Jesus to have
sweat blood from his brows. His face sweat as it were great drops of
blood falling to the ground and his anxiety levels were off the scale.
The burden was so heavy upon him that he suffe
>There are lots of silly apostateisms that creep into our religion. One
is
>you can't drink any caffeinated beverages. Another is that you have to
pass
>the Sacrament tray with your right hand. Some claim that you can't do
>anything that might be considered physical exercise on Sunday (like
taki
JWR confessed:
>I've got to stop this. It's killing me.
It would be a good idea to take a political break. It kills me too. I
just can't handle too much of it.
Paul O
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>The doctor told him he could either pay a dollar per caffeine
>pill or drink a cup of coffee every day. So at breakfast, he would say
it
>was time to take his medicine, then drink a cup of coffee. Since it was
>prescribed, it wasn't breaking the WoW.
Cool story. I agree. What's the name of the
Gary said:
>women reproductive issues - I can't use the real term because it is
>against charter,
Yeah but we knew what you meant.
;-)
Paul O
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>If it isn't, then it is a traitor and betrayer. Which just
>about sums up what I feel about Truman. He betrayed our armed forced,
and
>deserves to be remembered as one of the blackest villains of our
national
>history.
I wonder if his temple ordinances have been performed yet? Hmmm.
;-)
>I thank you from the most heartfelt depths of my heart for the
hospitality
>you have offered me. I can tell that this trip, which might have been a
>big chore, is going to turn out to be one of the highlights of my
personal
>history. I am really pumped.
I'm so excited for John! You'll have
>The United
>Order was voluntary, socialism isn't. That is a pretty big difference
in
>my book.
Of course your right, John. Why didn't I think of that?
Paul O
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O
>At *very* occasional times, on long distance trips, I've taken caffeine
>pills to keep me up.
Me too. It's better than winding up on the side of the road.
>Personally I think if I didn't live the WoW I'd try a glass of white
wine every
>now and then.
Me too. But the benefits of living the
>If I was a Jew, the Sabbath would be from sundown to sundown. But I'm
not
>a Jew, at least not culturally or religiously. So as soon as the clock
>strikes midnight, the Sabbath is over. I feel the same way you do,
Paul.
Hip hip hurray! Someone agrees with me on this one! I honestly feel tha
>Their military equipment is also built to a much different quality
>requirement than their commercial stuff - just like ours. They do have
the
>technical know-how to build electronic equipment correctly - they just
>don't "waste" it on commercial stuff.
I can't argue with this because I don't kn
>In my opinion the more parties the better.
>
>Stacy.
>
>I agree. . .party on, dude!!
Yeahh! Let's all have a party!!
:-)))
Paul O
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Jim wrote
>Hypocrisy is a troubling concept for me. I often reflect on the rights
>and wrongs of my life, and find that I have generally fallen far short
>of the ideals and correct principles I claim to embrace. In short, I am
>a hypocrite.
I read your letter and appreciate your sentiments.
>Who cares? At the time, Red China didn't have any power. They couldn't
>have fought us without losing gazillions of people. They were fighting
>with clubs and pitchforks
Actually, the Chinese are not much of a world force even today in my
opinion. Not to offend anyone but their technology i
Marc wrote:
>Many people assume it
>means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs
that we
>take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink
coffee or
>(green/black) tea. That's what it means, not "no caffeine." We tend to
get bogged
>down in unimport
take from the riches of John Redelfs and give to poor Paul
Osborne! After all, we are all brethren and we should be more equal in
wealth. Right?
I'll take a bucket of wheat please.
Paul O
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Irwin wrote,
"A strong federal government is a must in order to
protect the rights of the minority."
I agree, just so long as they don't step on my right while in the process
of protecting others. ;-)
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Si
>I've been thinking of becoming a Democrat. I can't see a nickle's worth
of
>difference between Democrats and Republicans except in their
>rhetoric. They both vote the same wrong way on the issues that matter
to
>me. And since I never vote for the candidate of either party, why not
be a
>Dem
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