Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Igor Stroh]

bakhtiar a hamid wrote:
> On Thursday 09 February 2006 18:17, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> 
>>Yes. Let's make a procedure for that:
>>
>>* find the document you think would be good to have
>>
>>* propose it on this list
>>
> 
> 
> http://www.jrandolph.com/blog/?p=23#comment-324
> 
> has a good comment with good links.
> 
> http://zissue.berlios.de/z3/Zope3In30Minutes.html
> http://www.zope.org/Members/adytumsolutions/z3project_starter/z3project_starter_released
> 
> left out the other links since i think it's in the list already

One of the best zope3 advocacy posts ever (it seems like Jason
is even convinced to switch back to z3). It should be definitely
recorded somewhere as a "success story".

Cheers,
Igor
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[bakhtiar a hamid]

On Thursday 09 February 2006 18:17, Martijn Faassen wrote:
>
> Yes. Let's make a procedure for that:
>
> * find the document you think would be good to have
>
> * propose it on this list
>

http://www.jrandolph.com/blog/?p=23#comment-324

has a good comment with good links.

http://zissue.berlios.de/z3/Zope3In30Minutes.html
http://www.zope.org/Members/adytumsolutions/z3project_starter/z3project_starter_released

left out the other links since i think it's in the list already


> * if it gets the +1s, go ahead and contact the document author for
> permission to include it as part of a new zope(3).org and whether we can
> download and edit it. The list discussion can also result in a good
> place in the overall structure that we're developing that the document
> can be put into.
>
> * If we get this permission, reformat (if necessary) this document into
> restructured text and check it into our SVN. We need to have a credits
> file we need to update, and also a pattern in restructured text for
> marking the original author and editor of this document.
>
> > I actually quite like the Django tutorial
> > (http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial1) because it's
> > easy  to follow, bite-sized, and I could get a pretty good idea of how
> > it works  by skimming the code + screenhots and skipping most of the
> > text.
> >
> > As a visitor, I need to have a single place to start, and a clear path
> > through the information, not just a dump of information that I have to
> > wade through myself. And most importantly, all the documentation (and I
> > mean all of it) needs to be consistent, not only in style and message,
> > but  in the development patterns presented. I know zope 3 is powerful
> > and  great, but don't throw every combination out there all at once.
> > People who  want to invest in the framework will have plenty of time to
> > discover all  that. What we need to do is make it feasible for them to
> > take that plunge.
>
> I agree completely with this. Less well structured information is
> beneficial to large amounts of confusing information.
>
> That said, I think having a section with links outside the site would
> still be useful, and I think it can be structured ("related material
> elsewhere" sections) in a way so that it doesn't disturb the main
> pattern of information. This is not of the primary importance though.
>
> >> * does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid
> >> looking,  serious, but still exciting website for zope?
> >
> > We need one. Coders make poor visual designers. :)
>
> There are no coders here, we're just all copy editors and such. :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Andrew Sawyers]

> Something like http://plone.org/products? 
Why not?  If it fits the bill.

> 
> > zope.org should not be a member login based site IMNSHO.
> 
> Why not have a members.zope.org that is a community site, with wikis and  
> the lot, where the community can play their games, and a zope3.org and/or  
> a zope.org that is the outward facing part of the community, much more  
> tightly controlled for quality and consistency?
The problem IMO is that the two sites are now tightly coupled and the
bit rot of one immediately effects the other.  If there is no clear tie
between the two (read no way for the 'anti-marketing' to effect Zope,
which is currently the case) there should be no reason why not to have
this.  It should be two seperate projects though.  I presume hardware
won't be an issue since Rob chimed in +1  :)

Andrew
> Martin
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Rob Page]

On Feb 9, 2006, at 5:26 PM, Martin Aspeli wrote:
> Why not have a members.zope.org that is a community
> site, with wikis and the lot, where the community can
> play their games, and a zope3.org and/or a zope.org
> that is the outward facing part of the community,
> much more tightly controlled for quality and
> consistency?

+1

--
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Zope Corporation   F: 703 995 0412
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Martin Aspeli]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:28:22 -, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 14:09 +0100, Max M wrote:

Chris Withers wrote:


If we cannot make it work in Zope 2 or 3, maybe we should use rails ;-)



I know Max is kidding; but to comment to Chris.  One of the main
problems to avoid is 'kruft' and bit-rot.  zope.org suffers this to the
point of atrophy.  People can put products for distribution on
sourceforge or private sites.


Sourceforge is probably the worst way to make your software available from  
an end-user perspective. sf.net has done amazing things for hundreds of  
open source communities by making resources available, but the process of  
obtaining a project status (whilst necessary to avoid project spam) is a  
barrier to many, and the poor usability of their systems (we had to  
explain to experienced developers how the sf.net tracker worked, they  
didn't understand it, and the way they organise downloads is so confusing  
people just give up) makes it difficult for many who are just looking for  
things to download.



 I would presume some crafty community
member might even come up with something; and then we can get feed data
or the like from them for display on the site.


Something like http://plone.org/products? We've had *huge* success by  
making this tool available to people. By giving products a place to  
organise themselves, people find them much easier. By giving them tools to  
manage releases and roadmaps, and individual issue trackers that notify  
the project owners when people submit bugs (all of this is optional)  
maintainers are better at keeping their software up-to-date and more  
responsive to their users.



zope.org should not be a member login based site IMNSHO.


Why not have a members.zope.org that is a community site, with wikis and  
the lot, where the community can play their games, and a zope3.org and/or  
a zope.org that is the outward facing part of the community, much more  
tightly controlled for quality and consistency?


Martin



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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Martin Aspeli]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 13:00:43 -, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:



Tonico Strasser wrote:
IMHO, the most important change for reducing visual design complexity,  
is to get rid of the /Members section, including log in/log out, and  
the whole TTW content management system.
 I think it's much easier to add and update content with SVN. (This  
would also effectively eliminate the SPAM problem.)


Although you loose the place that many people use to store their  
products for distribution :-/


Oh well, if this new thing actually works, I guess the trade off is  
worth it...


We solved this by providing them a better place to put their products. :)

http://plone.org/products

I realise that running this thing on Plone may not be feasible, but Plone  
has put a lot of effort into the /products and /documentation sections  
(and more updates are en-route, as soon as limi gets a few spare cycles).


Martin

--
(muted)

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Lennart Regebro]

On 2/9/06, Andrew Sawyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 14:28 +0100, Lennart Regebro wrote:
> >  But other than that, I think we should
> > focus on having a zope3.org.
> A zope.org and zope3.org?

Yup.

--
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CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Andrew Sawyers]

On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 00:05 +, Martin Aspeli wrote:
> Hi Martijn,
> 

> 
> I would say, let's not bite off more than we can chew. Getting a punch  
> web-site is not easy. The hard part is reducing the amount of content, not  
> creating it. I'd say focus on Zope 3 for now - it's what we want to  
> promote as the next big thing, it's what realistically holds a candle to  
> e.g. Rails and it's more "pythonic" in the sense that the rest of the  
> python world may take more of an interest in it.
> 
I tend to agree with Martin here; except that i don't think there should
be a goal of 'reducing' content if this were to be a redux of zope.org.
We should just 'redo' it for the structure that is being laid out and
retire the old site as old.zope.org IMNSHO.

Andrew
> 
> 

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Andrew Sawyers]

On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 14:09 +0100, Max M wrote:
> Chris Withers wrote:
> 
> 
> If we cannot make it work in Zope 2 or 3, maybe we should use rails ;-)
> 

I know Max is kidding; but to comment to Chris.  One of the main
problems to avoid is 'kruft' and bit-rot.  zope.org suffers this to the
point of atrophy.  People can put products for distribution on
sourceforge or private sites.  I would presume some crafty community
member might even come up with something; and then we can get feed data
or the like from them for display on the site.

zope.org should not be a member login based site IMNSHO.

Andrew

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Andrew Sawyers]

On Thu, 2006-02-09 at 14:28 +0100, Lennart Regebro wrote:
>  But other than that, I think we should
> focus on having a zope3.org.
A zope.org and zope3.org?

Andrew
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Lennart Regebro]

On 2/9/06, Martijn Faassen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm still hopeful we can at least swap out zope.org's frontpage and
> initial pages with something better that describes both Zope 2, Zope 3,
> and its relationship. Quite a bit of text is already written that
> attempts that which is in codespeak svn.

Well, just changing the texts on the frontpage is probably not a bite
that is too big to chew. ;-) But other than that, I think we should
focus on having a zope3.org.
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Max M]

Chris Withers wrote:


Tonico Strasser wrote:

IMHO, the most important change for reducing visual design 
complexity, is to get rid of the /Members section, including log 
in/log out, and the whole TTW content management system.


I think it's much easier to add and update content with SVN. (This 
would also effectively eliminate the SPAM problem.)



Although you loose the place that many people use to store their 
products for distribution :-/


Oh well, if this new thing actually works, I guess the trade off is 
worth it...




If we cannot make it work in Zope 2 or 3, maybe we should use rails ;-)

--

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/
IT's Mad Science

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Chris Withers]

Tonico Strasser wrote:
IMHO, the most important change for reducing visual design complexity, 
is to get rid of the /Members section, including log in/log out, and the 
whole TTW content management system.


I think it's much easier to add and update content with SVN. (This would 
also effectively eliminate the SPAM problem.)


Although you loose the place that many people use to store their 
products for distribution :-/


Oh well, if this new thing actually works, I guess the trade off is 
worth it...


Chris

--
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   - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Chris Withers]

Martijn Faassen wrote:
Besides brochure-style information, I'm less confident about presenting 
up to date documentation on Zope 2, however. If we get people to edit 
the Zope 2 documentation for inclusion, then I'm all for it. I have my 
doubts that we'll get enough community interest in doing so however, but 
I'd love to be wrong about that.


If you could get it is some simple format that's svn'ed and easilly 
editable/updateable, I'd love to chip in when I can.


No-one has every wanted to get that initial step done though :-/

Chris

--
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Mark Pratt]

On Feb 9, 2006, at 11:22 AM, Martijn Faassen wrote:


Mark Pratt wrote:
[snip]
If the idea is to deliver the message that Zope 3 is great,   
clutting the message with Zope 2 cruft (not the same as if we  
have  some really great zope 2 documentation, but what's there  
has rotted  quite a bit) is not likely to help. Maybe we can (and  
should) get  there too, but let's not bite off more than we can  
chew the first  iteration. The *worst* thing we can do is launch  
a new site that  has all the old sites' problems. :)
As attractive the idea may be of everyone switching to Zope 3  
right  away -- it is essential that the thousands of Zope 2.x  
server out  their still receive some kind of documentation support.
So while it may be true that the documentation is out of date --  
this  should then be a priority to do a "final" update of the 2.x  
docs and  then focus on all things Zope 3.

Legacy Zope apps are going to be around for the next 3 to 10 years.


I've tried to write the 'brochure' content of the new zope.org to  
include both Zope 2 and Zope 3 in a coherent story. I think this  
can be done - review the text already there. My idea is to deliver  
the message that Zope is great. It comes in two flavors and they're  
both great.


Besides brochure-style information, I'm less confident about  
presenting up to date documentation on Zope 2, however. If we get  
people to edit the Zope 2 documentation for inclusion, then I'm all  
for it. I have my doubts that we'll get enough community interest  
in doing so however, but I'd love to be wrong about that.


The resulting website will depend on whether we get people do the  
editing necessary.


In my experience quality editing (because its tedious) is not  
something that community work excels at.
Is this something that we should try to collect money for? (To then  
pay an experienced editor to go through the text).


Cheers,

Mark
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Max M]

Martijn Faassen wrote:


Martin Aspeli wrote:


Hi Martijn,

* are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as 
well?  I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the 
breadwinner of  most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more 
easily for Zope 3  however; nobody is going to write Zope 2 
tutorials. What do we do?





I will not touch zope.org, but I would be willing to do some serious 
work on a new zope3.org site.


There is so much content on Zope org, and I actually think that it 
presents Zope 2 reasonably well. So changing it will not be worth the 
effort. The broken links and lost content will probably be a net loss.


Presenting Zope 3 on a new site on the other hand would give a lot of 
bang for the buck.



* does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid 
looking,  serious, but still exciting website for zope?




Though my own site doesn't really reflect it ;-) I am actually capable 
of doing pretty solid layouts, and I would be willing to do a prototype. 
I have +10 years experience in advertising. I could host the prototype 
for development on zope3.mxm.dk until it gets aproval.



I am also doing screencasts on a regular basis for customers, and have a 
solid setup for that. Like pro audio gear etc. I would be willing to do 
those presentations. Btw. "Macromedia Captivate" is a great tool for the 
job.



One obvious question though. Shouldn't this be a "dogfood" project. It 
would have some sense to let the site be hosted in Zope Cubed itself.


--

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/
IT's Mad Science

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Martijn Faassen]

Mark Pratt wrote:
[snip]
If the idea is to deliver the message that Zope 3 is great,  clutting 
the message with Zope 2 cruft (not the same as if we have  some really 
great zope 2 documentation, but what's there has rotted  quite a bit) 
is not likely to help. Maybe we can (and should) get  there too, but 
let's not bite off more than we can chew the first  iteration. The 
*worst* thing we can do is launch a new site that  has all the old 
sites' problems. :)



As attractive the idea may be of everyone switching to Zope 3 right  
away -- it is essential that the thousands of Zope 2.x server out  their 
still receive some kind of documentation support.


So while it may be true that the documentation is out of date -- this  
should then be a priority to do a "final" update of the 2.x docs and  
then focus on all things Zope 3.


Legacy Zope apps are going to be around for the next 3 to 10 years.


I've tried to write the 'brochure' content of the new zope.org to 
include both Zope 2 and Zope 3 in a coherent story. I think this can be 
done - review the text already there. My idea is to deliver the message 
that Zope is great. It comes in two flavors and they're both great.


Besides brochure-style information, I'm less confident about presenting 
up to date documentation on Zope 2, however. If we get people to edit 
the Zope 2 documentation for inclusion, then I'm all for it. I have my 
doubts that we'll get enough community interest in doing so however, but 
I'd love to be wrong about that.


The resulting website will depend on whether we get people do the 
editing necessary.


Regards,

Martijn
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Martijn Faassen]

Martin Aspeli wrote:

Hi Martijn,

* are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as 
well?  I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the 
breadwinner of  most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more easily 
for Zope 3  however; nobody is going to write Zope 2 tutorials. What 
do we do?


I would say, let's not bite off more than we can chew. Getting a punch  
web-site is not easy. The hard part is reducing the amount of content, 
not  creating it. I'd say focus on Zope 3 for now - it's what we want 
to  promote as the next big thing, it's what realistically holds a 
candle to  e.g. Rails and it's more "pythonic" in the sense that the 
rest of the  python world may take more of an interest in it.


I agree that Zope 3 is what we can muster the most attention for.

I'm still hopeful we can at least swap out zope.org's frontpage and 
initial pages with something better that describes both Zope 2, Zope 3, 
and its relationship. Quite a bit of text is already written that 
attempts that which is in codespeak svn.


From there on I expect we focus mostly on Zope 3.

Then again, I'd be okay too if we'd just end up with a zope3.org; I can 
rewrite my text.


* we need to answer the question whether we want a famous  
low-amounts-of-minutes "how do you build app Foo in Zope 3" 
screencast.  If so, someone will need to design it.


I think Paul Everitt has done some screen casts before. You should talk 
to  him about his experiences and what software he uses.


Yes, he showed me some work he's doing on zope 3 related screencasts and 
I think this is excellent. I'm not likely to starting to produce 
screencasts myself directly any time soon, though for a Zope 3 
beginner's tutorial I'm interested in contributing in working out the 
sequence.


* are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be 
up  to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this 
turns  out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a 
newsletter,  as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is 
currently  anti-marketing zope)


Who subscribes to a newsletter? :-)

Again, let's do the big-wins first. Newsletters can be added if the  
traffic and volunteers warrant it.


See elsethread discussion with Michael Haubenwaller: the newsletter 
effort will run on planetzope.org for the time being, so we can stop 
worrying about it in the context of a zope website for now.



Volunteers
--

* we need inspired writers to improve the texts and organize it 
further.  We need a good marketing message.


I don't think I'm far enough into zope 3 to come up with much of this, 
but  I'm quite good with reviewing text and making sure it's clear, 
concise and  punchy. I'd certainly like to help with that.


Please review the text already hiding out in svn here:

http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk

[snip]

* we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We  
need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with 
a  proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in 
the  grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so 
we can

include it.


I would caution against throwing everything in there that is vaguely 
good.  Quality must be the first priority, and seriously - no wikis. 


I agree quality control is important, and I agree on no wikis (we can 
look at integrating zopewiki.org and so on later, but it shouldn't be 
primary)


This would  need review and control, not the potential to grow into 
another zope.org.  Existing documents would probably need to be 
reformatted for style and  layout, and we'd have to think carefully 
about providing a good picture.


Yes. Let's make a procedure for that:

* find the document you think would be good to have

* propose it on this list

* if it gets the +1s, go ahead and contact the document author for 
permission to include it as part of a new zope(3).org and whether we can 
download and edit it. The list discussion can also result in a good 
place in the overall structure that we're developing that the document 
can be put into.


* If we get this permission, reformat (if necessary) this document into 
restructured text and check it into our SVN. We need to have a credits 
file we need to update, and also a pattern in restructured text for 
marking the original author and editor of this document.


I actually quite like the Django tutorial  
(http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial1) because it's 
easy  to follow, bite-sized, and I could get a pretty good idea of how 
it works  by skimming the code + screenhots and skipping most of the text.


As a visitor, I need to have a single place to start, and a clear path  
through the information, not just a dump of information that I have to  
wade through myself. And most importantly, all the documentation (and I  
mean all of it) needs to be consistent, not only in style and message, 
but  in the de

Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Mark Pratt]

Hi,

Just one point.

On Feb 9, 2006, at 9:47 AM, Martin Aspeli wrote:

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 04:17:25 -, baiju m  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I think we can have these kind of documentation:

Documentation
-

- Zope 3 Tutorial
- Zope 2 Tutorial (Using Five and so lead the user towards Zope3)
- What's new in {Zope2|3|CMF|Five} releases
- ZopeBook (Zope 2)
- ZDG (Zope 2)


Do we really want to add to the confusion by throwing in old Zope 2  
documentation, that still refers to Zope 2.6 and has one gazillion  
very confusing in-line text comments?


If the idea is to deliver the message that Zope 3 is great,  
clutting the message with Zope 2 cruft (not the same as if we have  
some really great zope 2 documentation, but what's there has rotted  
quite a bit) is not likely to help. Maybe we can (and should) get  
there too, but let's not bite off more than we can chew the first  
iteration. The *worst* thing we can do is launch a new site that  
has all the old sites' problems. :)


As attractive the idea may be of everyone switching to Zope 3 right  
away -- it is essential that the thousands of Zope 2.x server out  
their still receive some kind of documentation support.


So while it may be true that the documentation is out of date -- this  
should then be a priority to do a "final" update of the 2.x docs and  
then focus on all things Zope 3.


Legacy Zope apps are going to be around for the next 3 to 10 years.

Cheers,

Mark



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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Martin Aspeli]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 04:17:25 -, baiju m <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I think we can have these kind of documentation:

Documentation
-

- Zope 3 Tutorial
- Zope 2 Tutorial (Using Five and so lead the user towards Zope3)
- What's new in {Zope2|3|CMF|Five} releases
- ZopeBook (Zope 2)
- ZDG (Zope 2)


Do we really want to add to the confusion by throwing in old Zope 2  
documentation, that still refers to Zope 2.6 and has one gazillion very  
confusing in-line text comments?


If the idea is to deliver the message that Zope 3 is great, clutting the  
message with Zope 2 cruft (not the same as if we have some really great  
zope 2 documentation, but what's there has rotted quite a bit) is not  
likely to help. Maybe we can (and should) get there too, but let's not  
bite off more than we can chew the first iteration. The *worst* thing we  
can do is launch a new site that has all the old sites' problems. :)



- z3 static API docs
- Zope3Book
- FAQ
- HOWTOs

In addition to this, a wiki can also be included.


I think a wiki is the antithesis to well-organised, well-delivered  
documentation. :) Wikis require significant gardening at the very least. I  
certainly wouldn't rely on a wiki as the main vehicle of delivery.



Zope 3 Tutorial

This will be the official tutorial for Zope3, like Python's or  
Django's

Tutorials. A trimmed down version of 'MessageBoard' application
can be used in this tutorial. This will help the user when reading  
Zope3Book.

This tutorial can be updated with every major releases.

FAQ

An FAQ like:
  http://plone.org/documentation/faq
  http://www.async.com.br/faq/pygtk/index.py?req=index

HOWTOs

  Tutorials covering special topics


Not sure if it's relevant, but the PloneHelpCenter that runs  
http://plone.org/documentation is of course open source. :)


Martin

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[baiju m]

On 2/9/06, Martin Aspeli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > * we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
> > need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a
> > proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the
> > grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can
> > include it.
>
> I would caution against throwing everything in there that is vaguely good.
> Quality must be the first priority, and seriously - no wikis. This would
> need review and control, not the potential to grow into another zope.org.
> Existing documents would probably need to be reformatted for style and
> layout, and we'd have to think carefully about providing a good picture.
>
> I actually quite like the Django tutorial
> (http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial1) because it's easy
> to follow, bite-sized, and I could get a pretty good idea of how it works
> by skimming the code + screenhots and skipping most of the text.
>
> As a visitor, I need to have a single place to start, and a clear path
> through the information, not just a dump of information that I have to
> wade through myself. And most importantly, all the documentation (and I
> mean all of it) needs to be consistent, not only in style and message, but
> in the development patterns presented. I know zope 3 is powerful and
> great, but don't throw every combination out there all at once. People who
> want to invest in the framework will have plenty of time to discover all
> that. What we need to do is make it feasible for them to take that plunge.

I think we can have these kind of documentation:

Documentation
-

- Zope 3 Tutorial
- Zope 2 Tutorial (Using Five and so lead the user towards Zope3)
- What's new in {Zope2|3|CMF|Five} releases
- ZopeBook (Zope 2)
- ZDG (Zope 2)
- z3 static API docs
- Zope3Book
- FAQ
- HOWTOs

In addition to this, a wiki can also be included.

Zope 3 Tutorial

This will be the official tutorial for Zope3, like Python's or Django's
Tutorials. A trimmed down version of 'MessageBoard' application
can be used in this tutorial. This will help the user when reading Zope3Book.
This tutorial can be updated with every major releases.

FAQ

An FAQ like:
  http://plone.org/documentation/faq
  http://www.async.com.br/faq/pygtk/index.py?req=index

HOWTOs

  Tutorials covering special topics

Regards,
Baiju M
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Martin Aspeli]

Hi Martijn,

* are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as well?  
I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the breadwinner of  
most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more easily for Zope 3  
however; nobody is going to write Zope 2 tutorials. What do we do?


I would say, let's not bite off more than we can chew. Getting a punch  
web-site is not easy. The hard part is reducing the amount of content, not  
creating it. I'd say focus on Zope 3 for now - it's what we want to  
promote as the next big thing, it's what realistically holds a candle to  
e.g. Rails and it's more "pythonic" in the sense that the rest of the  
python world may take more of an interest in it.


* we need to answer the question whether we want a famous  
low-amounts-of-minutes "how do you build app Foo in Zope 3" screencast.  
If so, someone will need to design it.


I think Paul Everitt has done some screen casts before. You should talk to  
him about his experiences and what software he uses.


* are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be up  
to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this turns  
out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a newsletter,  
as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is currently  
anti-marketing zope)


Who subscribes to a newsletter? :-)

Again, let's do the big-wins first. Newsletters can be added if the  
traffic and volunteers warrant it.



Volunteers
--

* we need inspired writers to improve the texts and organize it further.  
We need a good marketing message.


I don't think I'm far enough into zope 3 to come up with much of this, but  
I'm quite good with reviewing text and making sure it's clear, concise and  
punchy. I'd certainly like to help with that.


* we need screencasts! Besides the how to make a CMS in 5 minutes  
screencast mentioned above, we can build tutorials on how to set up  
things, install things, make first steps.


Yep. Paul may be able to offer some advice (or even help) here.

* we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We  
need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a  
proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the  
grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can

include it.


I would caution against throwing everything in there that is vaguely good.  
Quality must be the first priority, and seriously - no wikis. This would  
need review and control, not the potential to grow into another zope.org.  
Existing documents would probably need to be reformatted for style and  
layout, and we'd have to think carefully about providing a good picture.


I actually quite like the Django tutorial  
(http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial1) because it's easy  
to follow, bite-sized, and I could get a pretty good idea of how it works  
by skimming the code + screenhots and skipping most of the text.


As a visitor, I need to have a single place to start, and a clear path  
through the information, not just a dump of information that I have to  
wade through myself. And most importantly, all the documentation (and I  
mean all of it) needs to be consistent, not only in style and message, but  
in the development patterns presented. I know zope 3 is powerful and  
great, but don't throw every combination out there all at once. People who  
want to invest in the framework will have plenty of time to discover all  
that. What we need to do is make it feasible for them to take that plunge.


* does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid looking,  
serious, but still exciting website for zope?


We need one. Coders make poor visual designers. :)

Who is volunteering for some of this? I'm going to help out with the  
writing and will try to keep up my general nagging so we can push this  
forward, but we need more people.


I'd like to be nagged, more than anything. Kick me enough times, and I'll  
help :)



It's been very quiet on this list lately, and we need more noise. :)


/me shouts a little

Martin


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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Michael Haubenwallner]

Martijn Faassen wrote:
>> I have created http://del.icio.us/zope3 to collect bookmarks of
>> zope3 docs, tutorials and packages/applications.
>>
>> I'd like to share that account with interested persons
>> (contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
>
>
> Is it okay if I just 'for' a lot of those links I have already to that
> account? Then you can evaluate whether you're interested in actually
> taking them up.
>

Tagging bookmarks with 'for:zope3' is about the best you and others can 
do to support the collection. No need to switch accounts. Thanks a lot !


Michael

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Martijn Faassen]

Michael Haubenwallner wrote:
[newsletter]
I'm preparing to run a zope newsletter from the planetzope.org site. If 
needed it could be (re)integrated with the new zopeweb at any time.


Sounds like a good plan. You're willing to do the work, and we have a 
venue (planetzope.org). We can integrate it with zopeweb when we're 
ready. Thanks!


[snip]

I have created http://del.icio.us/zope3 to collect bookmarks of
zope3 docs, tutorials and packages/applications.

I'd like to share that account with interested persons
(contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED])


Is it okay if I just 'for' a lot of those links I have already to that 
account? Then you can evaluate whether you're interested in actually 
taking them up.


Regards,

Martijn
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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Martijn Faassen]

Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:


I started work on a new layout with Andrew Sawyers a few months ago.  
I'm more than happy to continue.


http://modscape.com/zope
http://www.modscape.com/zope/homepage_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/download_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/products_html

The designs are standards based. Please send any comments, feedback  
along. Thanks.


I think this is a pretty good start, great! (and I saw this mockup 
before, I'm just getting lost keeping track of everything, sorry!)


It is, unsurprisingly, rather inspired by the contents of the existing 
zope.org. I want to remove a lot of the links  on the homepage (or 
somehow make them less prominent?) which might change the design. The 
structure of a new site would also influence things.


Login option would just disappear. I wouldn't call it 'Zope community' 
either, just "Zope"; we explicitly want to move away from a community 
website.


Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Tom Von Lahndorff]

On Feb 7, 2006, at 11:08 AM, Tonico Strasser wrote:


Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:
I started work on a new layout with Andrew Sawyers a few months  
ago. I'm more than happy to continue.

http://modscape.com/zope
http://www.modscape.com/zope/homepage_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/download_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/products_html
The designs are standards based. Please send any comments,  
feedback along. Thanks.


Hi Tom,

I find the design looks clearly better than the current Zope.org.

In addition to the visual design changes I would suggest to  
implement the new proposed structure provided at


  .

IMHO, the most important change for reducing visual design  
complexity, is to get rid of the /Members section, including log in/ 
log out, and the whole TTW content management system.


I agree. I'll look into this as well as the structure above. Thanks  
for the feedback.




I think it's much easier to add and update content with SVN. (This  
would also effectively eliminate the SPAM problem.)


Tonico

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Tonico Strasser]

Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:


I started work on a new layout with Andrew Sawyers a few months ago. I'm 
more than happy to continue.


http://modscape.com/zope
http://www.modscape.com/zope/homepage_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/download_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/products_html

The designs are standards based. Please send any comments, feedback 
along. Thanks.


Hi Tom,

I find the design looks clearly better than the current Zope.org.

In addition to the visual design changes I would suggest to implement 
the new proposed structure provided at


  .

IMHO, the most important change for reducing visual design complexity, 
is to get rid of the /Members section, including log in/log out, and the 
whole TTW content management system.


I think it's much easier to add and update content with SVN. (This would 
also effectively eliminate the SPAM problem.)


Tonico

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Tarek Ziadé]

Tom Von Lahndorff wrote:



I started work on a new layout with Andrew Sawyers a few months ago.  
I'm more than happy to continue.


http://modscape.com/zope
http://www.modscape.com/zope/homepage_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/download_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/products_html

The designs are standards based. Please send any comments, feedback  
along. Thanks.


Looks good !

the left menu is quite heavy though, and does not solve the actual 
Zope.org prblem: too much info on the front page


I am wondering if it could be rethaught,  to be composed of 7 elements max.

Tarek

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Tom Von Lahndorff]

I started work on a new layout with Andrew Sawyers a few months ago.  
I'm more than happy to continue.


http://modscape.com/zope
http://www.modscape.com/zope/homepage_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/download_html
http://www.modscape.com/zope/products_html

The designs are standards based. Please send any comments, feedback  
along. Thanks.


-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.modscape.com
-


On Feb 7, 2006, at 9:28 AM, Tonico Strasser wrote:


Martijn Faassen wrote:
* does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid  
looking, serious, but still exciting website for zope?


Whether a site is exciting or not is purely subjective I think. I  
find w3.org very exciting, but I guess many here don't ;)


Making a solid design should be possible, based on best practices.

I've seen that the basic site structure is already good documented,  
and that you want to get rid of the /Members section - that should  
make designers life easier, no (user-, workflow-, etc.) actions, no  
edit forms to worry about.


http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk/

Also, a definition of all different screens that need to be  
designed, would help to see the light at the end of the tunnel.


Home page, search page, search result page, document view, file  
view, feedback form, ...


I, for one, fear the tremendous amount of different templates.

Tonico

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Michael Haubenwallner]

Martijn Faassen wrote:


Hi there,

In order to get some sense of progress, here I'l list a status report of 
what we've been up to. Most importantly I will list some stuff we need 
to do. Since I've been busy I'm probably out of the loop on some stuff, 
so please post your bits in this thread.


Decisions
--

* are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be up 
to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this turns 
out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a newsletter, 
as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is currently 
anti-marketing zope)




I'm preparing to run a zope newsletter from the planetzope.org site. If 
needed it could be (re)integrated with the new zopeweb at any time.



Volunteers
--

* we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We 
need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a 
proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the 
grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can

include it.



I have created http://del.icio.us/zope3 to collect bookmarks of
zope3 docs, tutorials and packages/applications.

I'd like to share that account with interested persons
(contact: [EMAIL PROTECTED])



It's been very quiet on this list lately, and we need more noise. :)



I'm almost always on ;)

Michael

--
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http://planetzope.org

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Tonico Strasser]

Martijn Faassen wrote:
* does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid looking, 
serious, but still exciting website for zope?


Whether a site is exciting or not is purely subjective I think. I find 
w3.org very exciting, but I guess many here don't ;)


Making a solid design should be possible, based on best practices.

I've seen that the basic site structure is already good documented, and 
that you want to get rid of the /Members section - that should make 
designers life easier, no (user-, workflow-, etc.) actions, no edit 
forms to worry about.


http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/zopeweb/trunk/

Also, a definition of all different screens that need to be designed, 
would help to see the light at the end of the tunnel.


Home page, search page, search result page, document view, file view, 
feedback form, ...


I, for one, fear the tremendous amount of different templates.

Tonico

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Re: [ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[bakhtiar a hamid]

On Monday 06 February 2006 19:43, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> In order to get some sense of progress, here I'l list a status report of
> what we've been up to. Most importantly I will list some stuff we need
> to do. Since I've been busy I'm probably out of the loop on some stuff,
> so please post your bits in this thread.
>
> * some additions and refactoring were made on our texts. Lots more needs
> to be done.
>
> * some people still need access to codespeak - if you need access, drop
> me a mail. If you already requested access and haven't gotten it yet,
> please drop me a mail so I can put some pressure behind it all.
>

i don;t think i've asked for access yet, so i'm asking for one now

> * Various discussions on the zope mailing lists have been taking away on
> how to brand things. I've sending some mails to likely volunteers
> inviting them into this project.
>
> Is everybody on this list? Just wave your hand if you're here! Also
> consider joining us on #zope-web on freenode.
>
> We need to make some decisions:
>
> Decisions
> --
>
> * are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as well?
> I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the breadwinner of
> most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more easily for Zope 3
> however; nobody is going to write Zope 2 tutorials. What do we do?

i'd suggest that we cover zope the technology, that actually means both 2,3 
and five

what kind of tutorial are we talking about?  user tutorials?  dev tutorial?
user tutorial aka site development thru zmi, and some zope built in objects is 
available from the elvis site tutorial (that comes with zope)

as for developing with zope 2, there's none afaict.  There's zdg, but that's a 
bit dated.  

five tutorial is not availale, methinks



>
> * we need to answer the question whether we want a famous
> low-amounts-of-minutes "how do you build app Foo in Zope 3" screencast.
> If so, someone will need to design it.

+1
>
> * are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be up
> to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this turns
> out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a newsletter,
> as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is currently
> anti-marketing zope)
>

a scheduled newslater will become like the zope weakly (pun intended) news 
some time in the future :P

i'd think something like what planetzope.org is doing fits this well.  
although we need to get the right feed for products and news.

> Volunteers
> --
>
> * we need inspired writers to improve the texts and organize it further.
> We need a good marketing message.
>
> * we need screencasts! Besides the how to make a CMS in 5 minutes
> screencast mentioned above, we can build tutorials on how to set up
> things, install things, make first steps.
>
> * we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
> need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a
> proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the
> grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can
> include it.
>
> * does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid looking,
> serious, but still exciting website for zope?
>
> Who is volunteering for some of this? I'm going to help out with the
> writing and will try to keep up my general nagging so we can push this
> forward, but we need more people.

not sure where i can help, probably i can help with reading up on the docs, 
and probably organizing (i.e moving stuff around as instructed by 
somebody) .. in other words, general work.

 
any eta for the site?

>
> It's been very quiet on this list lately, and we need more noise. :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Martijn
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[ZWeb] zope web status report 2006-02-06

[Martijn Faassen]

Hi there,

In order to get some sense of progress, here I'l list a status report of 
what we've been up to. Most importantly I will list some stuff we need 
to do. Since I've been busy I'm probably out of the loop on some stuff, 
so please post your bits in this thread.


* some additions and refactoring were made on our texts. Lots more needs 
to be done.


* some people still need access to codespeak - if you need access, drop 
me a mail. If you already requested access and haven't gotten it yet, 
please drop me a mail so I can put some pressure behind it all.


* Various discussions on the zope mailing lists have been taking away on 
how to brand things. I've sending some mails to likely volunteers 
inviting them into this project.


Is everybody on this list? Just wave your hand if you're here! Also 
consider joining us on #zope-web on freenode.


We need to make some decisions:

Decisions
--

* are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as well? 
I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the breadwinner of 
most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more easily for Zope 3 
however; nobody is going to write Zope 2 tutorials. What do we do?


* we need to answer the question whether we want a famous 
low-amounts-of-minutes "how do you build app Foo in Zope 3" screencast. 
If so, someone will need to design it.


* are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be up 
to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this turns 
out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a newsletter, 
as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is currently 
anti-marketing zope)


Volunteers
--

* we need inspired writers to improve the texts and organize it further. 
We need a good marketing message.


* we need screencasts! Besides the how to make a CMS in 5 minutes 
screencast mentioned above, we can build tutorials on how to set up 
things, install things, make first steps.


* we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We 
need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with a 
proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in the 
grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so we can

include it.

* does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid looking, 
serious, but still exciting website for zope?


Who is volunteering for some of this? I'm going to help out with the 
writing and will try to keep up my general nagging so we can push this 
forward, but we need more people.


It's been very quiet on this list lately, and we need more noise. :)

Regards,

Martijn
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