Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Wade Leftwich wrote: Guido van Rossum is looking for a web app framework. http://blog.delaguardia.com.mx/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=34blogId=1 Zope is conspicuous by its absence from the discussion. Hardly a mention, and no advocacy at all. Is Zope just too heavyweight for the project he has in mind? Or what? I don't think the point is trying to convince guido to use Zope for his pet project, the point is global advocacy: - Guido's word is considered gospel by many people (in that occurrence, I must confess that I have been profoundly disappointed by his attitude - his utter and a priori rejection of XML for a template language, that will be used 95% for the time to produce (X)HTML and the 5% remaining other variant of XML, with all that it implies in terms of validation, etc. is plainly stupid). - Like you noticed, Zope quasi-absence from the discussion is suspicious. Lennart did a reply on his blog (http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks). Anyway, I'm saddened by both the quasi-absence of the Zope community in this debate, and also the badmouthing of Zope (even sometimes, the hatred) by some Python developpers taking part in the discussion. There are, however, some constructive remarks like Ian Bicking's: http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks?post_id=if-mohammed-won-t-come S. -- Stéfane Fermigier, Tel: +33 (0)6 63 04 12 77 (mobile). Nuxeo Collaborative Portal Server: http://www.nuxeo.com/cps Gestion de contenu web / portail collaboratif / groupware / open source! ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Stefane Fermigier wrote: Wade Leftwich wrote: Guido van Rossum is looking for a web app framework. http://blog.delaguardia.com.mx/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=34blogId=1 Zope is conspicuous by its absence from the discussion. Hardly a mention, and no advocacy at all. Is Zope just too heavyweight for the project he has in mind? Or what? I don't think the point is trying to convince guido to use Zope for his pet project, the point is global advocacy: - Guido's word is considered gospel by many people (in that occurrence, I must confess that I have been profoundly disappointed by his attitude - his utter and a priori rejection of XML for a template language, that will be used 95% for the time to produce (X)HTML and the 5% remaining other variant of XML, with all that it implies in terms of validation, etc. is plainly stupid). - Like you noticed, Zope quasi-absence from the discussion is suspicious. Lennart did a reply on his blog (http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks). Anyway, I'm saddened by both the quasi-absence of the Zope community in this debate, and also the badmouthing of Zope (even sometimes, the hatred) by some Python developpers taking part in the discussion. There are, however, some constructive remarks like Ian Bicking's: http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks?post_id=if-mohammed-won-t-come S. I think this has to do with python being used both as a scripting language and as a language to create high-level components. There will always be a category of users looking for quick-and-dirty templating capabilities in web frameworks and others looking for more abstract components that address issues from a more abstract and certainly more complex perspective. In zope itself level the same opposition can be found between file-system vs TTW python-script-based development. I wonder how those who criticize zope3 for being too big a framework and too complex to understand, would figure out how to use Java-based web application frameworks... /JM ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] symbolic link
Hello, I'm very shure, some time ago, someone told about a product for zope, doing a thing similiar to a symbolic link. Can you rember where to find it? Bye Marcus -- The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations. -- David Friedman LARP-Welt, das LARP-Portal: http://www.larp-welt.de/ Coloful-Sky, meine kleine Drachenseite: http://www.colorful-sky.de/ ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On 2/2/06, Jean-Marc Orliaguet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this has to do with python being used both as a scripting language and as a language to create high-level components. There will always be a category of users looking for quick-and-dirty templating capabilities in web frameworks and others looking for more abstract components that address issues from a more abstract and certainly more complex perspective. I was thinking the same thing, and I have started thinking about if there is a way to use Zope 3 for quick and dirty stuff as well. The answer is probably no, but still. ;) -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Stefane Fermigier wrote: Wade Leftwich wrote: Guido van Rossum is looking for a web app framework. http://blog.delaguardia.com.mx/index.php?op=ViewArticlearticleId=34blogId=1 Zope is conspicuous by its absence from the discussion. Hardly a mention, and no advocacy at all. Is Zope just too heavyweight for the project he has in mind? Or what? I don't think the point is trying to convince guido to use Zope for his pet project, the point is global advocacy: - Guido's word is considered gospel by many people (in that occurrence, I must confess that I have been profoundly disappointed by his attitude - his utter and a priori rejection of XML for a template language, that will be used 95% for the time to produce (X)HTML and the 5% remaining other variant of XML, with all that it implies in terms of validation, etc. is plainly stupid). - Like you noticed, Zope quasi-absence from the discussion is suspicious. Lennart did a reply on his blog (http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks). Anyway, I'm saddened by both the quasi-absence of the Zope community in this debate, and also the badmouthing of Zope (even sometimes, the hatred) by some Python developpers taking part in the discussion. There are, however, some constructive remarks like Ian Bicking's: http://blogs.nuxeo.com/sections/blogs/lennart_regebro/2006_02_01_guido-webframeworks?post_id=if-mohammed-won-t-come S. I think this has to do with python being used both as a scripting language and as a language to create high-level components. There will always be a category of users looking for quick-and-dirty templating capabilities in web frameworks and others looking for more abstract components that address issues from a more abstract and certainly more complex perspective. In zope itself level the same opposition can be found between file-system vs TTW python-script-based development. I wonder how those who criticize zope3 for being too big a framework and too complex to understand, would figure out how to use Java-based web application frameworks... /JM I've followed the Guido blogs/discussion loosely. As a relative newcomer, this is my first real experience with the Python community's confusion of Zope2 and Zope3. I've seen on the list that people have been discussing renaming and other remedies to this problem. In my opinion, I think a little branding could go a long way. Instead of renaming the entire project, call it Zope3 Zebra or Zope3 Panther (clearly these are horrible, but you can see where I am going with this). Then create a dedicated website www.zope3zebra.org that basically links the Zope 3 book, tutorials, example code, and existing projects like SchoolTool on the front page. Clearly brand it as a industrial-strength, pythonic web framework and a complete rewrite from Zope2. Provide a link to all Python web frameworks and explain the advantages of industrial-strength, non-hackish code for people who want to do it right the first time. This front page will provide a jumping off point for zope3 devs and users. Does this make sense? It's only a small rebrand (and the Zope3 stays intact) and an assembly of components that already exist. Basically, you can use this occasion as a coming out party... Zope3 is here, and we're for real. Bottom line, I think the proof is in the pudding, and Zope3 quality is superb so it's not going anywhere. But a little better organization/marketing to the outside world could go a long way. Anyways, a thought. ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Stephan Richter wrote: Actually, the Zope 2 and Plone community are starting using Zope 3 heavily so the marketing will come. And CPS, and Silva, too... S. ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:00:04 -, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Joel, I hope your app is season-ready. :-) On Thursday 02 February 2006 11:50, Joel Moxley wrote: Does this make sense? It's only a small rebrand (and the Zope3 stays intact) and an assembly of components that already exist. Basically, you can use this occasion as a coming out party... Zope3 is here, and we're for real. -1 for any renaming. Just curious, but why? Also, he's not suggesting any renaming, only a codename to distinguish Zope 3 from Zope 2. I mean, the leap between Z2 and Z3 is hardly a single major version in anyone else's book. It's more like moving from Visual Basic to Python. Or something. (okay, poor comparison, but it's a major paradigm shift) Bottom line, I think the proof is in the pudding, and Zope3 quality is superb so it's not going anywhere. But a little better organization/marketing to the outside world could go a long way. Actually, the Zope 2 and Plone community are starting using Zope 3 heavily so the marketing will come. I would like to think that every little help. Plone doesn't necessarily market Zope (2), it markets itself as a CMS product. Plone developers are unfortunately poor at contributing to CMF, let alone to Zope core. With the amount of web frameworks out there (And the amount of CMS's) and the amount of noise Ruby-on-Rails is generating, it would be a shame if Zope lost out because no-one had time to make some noise about it. Those very same Plone and Zope 2 developers will be more likely to push towards Zope 3 if they feel others are using it, are convinced it has a future, and are convinced they will be able to collaborate with developers on unrelated products. Zope 2 and CMF buy-in is probably necessary for Zope 3 to grow, but I'm not convinced it's sufficient. Or at least that we should settle for it. Martin -- (muted) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:50:30 -, Joel Moxley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've followed the Guido blogs/discussion loosely. As a relative newcomer, this is my first real experience with the Python community's confusion of Zope2 and Zope3. I've seen on the list that people have been discussing renaming and other remedies to this problem. You're not the only one. In my opinion, I think a little branding could go a long way. Instead of renaming the entire project, call it Zope3 Zebra or Zope3 Panther (clearly these are horrible, but you can see where I am going with this). Then create a dedicated website www.zope3zebra.org that basically links the Zope 3 book, tutorials, example code, and existing projects like SchoolTool on the front page. Clearly brand it as a industrial-strength, pythonic web framework and a complete rewrite from Zope2. Provide a link to all Python web frameworks and explain the advantages of industrial-strength, non-hackish code for people who want to do it right the first time. This front page will provide a jumping off point for zope3 devs and users. Does this make sense? It's only a small rebrand (and the Zope3 stays intact) and an assembly of components that already exist. Basically, you can use this occasion as a coming out party... Zope3 is here, and we're for real. Bottom line, I think the proof is in the pudding, and Zope3 quality is superb so it's not going anywhere. But a little better organization/marketing to the outside world could go a long way. I'm in no position to make decisions, but I think this is a wonderful idea. It strikes a good balance between retaining the Zope brand and marking a fresh start. Philipp W and others have commented on Zope 3's utter lack of marketing (anyone been to zope.org lately?) and how it is probably hurting its adoption. Having just learnt Zope 3 myself, I'm telling others it's wonderful, and then they start talking about web services[1] and wonder what I've been smoking. Very sad. Martin [1] SOAP -- (muted) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thursday 02 February 2006 14:45, Fermigier Stefane wrote: And CPS, and Silva, too... Well, you already are using it heavily. :-) Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:42:25 -, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 02 February 2006 15:01, Martin Aspeli wrote: Philipp W and others have commented on Zope 3's utter lack of marketing (anyone been to zope.org lately?) and how it is probably hurting its adoption. Having just learnt Zope 3 myself, I'm telling others it's wonderful, and then they start talking about web services[1] and wonder what I've been smoking. Very sad. I am pretty sure there is a SOAP implementation for Zope 3 and it is in svn.zope.org. You missed my point (unless that was dry humour)... No-one who doesn't already read this list has heard of Zope 3 (as in, they understand what it's all about, and they understand the distinction between Zope 2 and Zope 3) and very few have heard of Zope in general. They have, however, seen all the Ruby-on-Rails demos and are talking about it all the time. Is Ruby-on-Rails a better framework than Zope 3? Martin -- (muted) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thursday 02 February 2006 15:48, Martin Aspeli wrote: I am pretty sure there is a SOAP implementation for Zope 3 and it is in svn.zope.org. You missed my point (unless that was dry humour)... With all the discussion about the Cubed project today, I guess I have not much humor left in me. ;-) No-one who doesn't already read this list has heard of Zope 3 (as in, they understand what it's all about, and they understand the distinction between Zope 2 and Zope 3) and very few have heard of Zope in general. They have, however, seen all the Ruby-on-Rails demos and are talking about it all the time. Yeah, but honestly I don't care. If people choose a technology on name recognition and not on technical merit, then it is their bad. However, I question the RoR hype. I wonder whether big companies seriously considering it; it has absolutely no track record. Zope 2 (and even 3) on the other hand is deployed on many huge sites and the risk of deploying it is low. Even deploying Zope 3 is a smaller risk than RoR. Is Ruby-on-Rails a better framework than Zope 3? I do not know. I have not looked at it, but I doubt it. There is a lot of experience in Zope 3. Also some users have reported coming back from RoR. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thursday 02 February 2006 15:07, Martin Aspeli wrote: Those very same Plone and Zope 2 developers will be more likely to push towards Zope 3 if they feel others are using it, are convinced it has a future, and are convinced they will be able to collaborate with developers on unrelated products. My sense from the sprint is that developers here use Zope 3 on its technical merits and not its marketing ones. I am personally not that interested in Zope 3 being chosen because of PR. When I signed up as a contributor (btw, I was the first one) it was because I wanted to develop Zope. I already knew that I did not like the CMF due to technical reasons and wanted to bring Zope itself forward. So I joined the Zope 3 effort. I never considered this effort to be anything else but ensuring the future of Zope. I recognized that Zope 2 had lost its edge to its competitors and it was necessary to come up with a new one. Having said that, I feel very strongly that built Zope version 3 and nothing more or less. And I feel that a name change would betray me and my intentions. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:05:32 -, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No-one who doesn't already read this list has heard of Zope 3 (as in, they understand what it's all about, and they understand the distinction between Zope 2 and Zope 3) and very few have heard of Zope in general. They have, however, seen all the Ruby-on-Rails demos and are talking about it all the time. Yeah, but honestly I don't care. If people choose a technology on name recognition and not on technical merit, then it is their bad. However, I question the RoR hype. I wonder whether big companies seriously considering it; it has absolutely no track record. Zope 2 (and even 3) on the other hand is deployed on many huge sites and the risk of deploying it is low. Even deploying Zope 3 is a smaller risk than RoR. And what if they've never heard about Zope 3 at all, what if it doesn't even come up in their discussions? The people that make the decisions don't necessarily have the time to research and try out every single framework out there. In fact, they almost never do. The presumption that people will just find your technology may hold when there are only a few contenders, but there are dozens of web frameworks even in the python space, dozens more in the Java space, and don't even try to count the PHP ones. And there are many, many people who are approaching the search thinking they'd be more comfortable with PHP or Java (which they are more likely to have experience with than python) and think that, if they don't even promote this on their own web site, it must be marginal thing that I shouldn't bother with. This happens. Every single day. I think it's short sighted not to care. How much better would Zope be if it had more real use cases, more serious users and ultimately more contributors? Why does Plone have so many users and such an active community? (hint: It's not because it's technology is de facto better than say CPSs...) Note that I'm not saying that the same people who produce the code (and great code it is, which is why I care so much about this) should be doing this. In fact, the Plone experience tells us they probably shouldn't. But *someone* ought to, because it's a shame each time someone picks a less appropriate framework just because they didn't know Zope 3 existed or that it was complete (I didn't know it was complete until after Zope 3.1 was released, and I was actively writing Plone code at the time). Martin -- (muted) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:12:27 -, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having said that, I feel very strongly that built Zope version 3 and nothing more or less. And I feel that a name change would betray me and my intentions. Well, Joel didn't suggest a name change, he suggested adding a codename to signify that there was something new and exciting, over and beyond Zope 2 and all the stigma attached to it, and spend a bit of time letting the world know that there is a wonderful new framework that has a lot going for it, and you should consider it. I don't see how this could possibly betray anything, and I think the Zope community would have a lot to gain from a little more buzz outside its own confines. You seem to refactor the code all the time, why are you so resitant to refactoring the brand just a little? :-) Martin -- (muted) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu February 2 2006 16:05, Stephan Richter wrote: Yeah, but honestly I don't care. If people choose a technology on name recognition and not on technical merit, then it is their bad. However, I question the RoR hype. I wonder whether big companies seriously considering it; it has absolutely no track record. Zope 2 (and even 3) on the other hand is deployed on many huge sites and the risk of deploying it is low. Even deploying Zope 3 is a smaller risk than RoR. It's hard to choose Zope 3 based on technical merit when it's not well-known that it's so different than the Zope 2 merits they've already decided they didn't like. I've been using Zope since 1998, mostly because I loved Python programming and it just fit me. I was excited to see Zope 3 in the works a few years ago, but frankly I didn't understand half of what the developers were talking about when they discussed what it was going to look like; it was over my head (and still is a bit), but I could tell it would be a different beast. I figured I'd wait and see and happily continue using Zope 2. Today, I see the mess that a Zope 2 site can turn in to, so I started looking at Zope 3 again. The release announcements say it's ready for production use, but the website has no promotion of it whatsoever. You have to dig several levels deep to see any mention that it's not just a new version of Zope. The downloads page makes it look like nothing more than an upgrade and the one Zope 3 link under Developers says the wiki is for Zope 3 development itself, not for those that want to use it. I do have Richter's book (thank you, Stephan) and Philipp's book is on its way, but I'm having trouble finding any material online that isn't a hodge-podge of years old development notes. I know Zope 3 is young, but this surprises me. I would think ZC would at least want to mention their new production-ready killer app on the front page, and perhaps include *something* in the What is Zope? page. But there's not one word about Zope 3's new technical merits. There must be a good reason for this. I know they didn't spend all this time building a great open source product for members-only. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps they don't want to promote it while Zope 2 product compatibility isn't there yet. With so many nice Zope 2 products around, I can see new users getting frustrated that none of them work in Zope 3. Once some major Zope 2 products work in Zope 3, maybe things will change. At any rate, I look forward to learning about Zope 3. I hope it's as fun (or more) to work with as Zope 2 has been. -- Ron ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
This is an interesting thread. Some opinions and observations: Guido will do what Guido does. His seeming antagonism to Zope is a little annoying, but he's opinionated on other topics too, and sometimes admits to being wrong and human. As some folks mentioned, it does sound like he maybe wants something simpler and more constrained in scope than Zope 3. Maybe Jim's Bobo would be it, or maybe someone else will be able to assemble some Zope 3 bits into a small approachable kit. I am hopeful that Zope 3 will continue strong whether it has huge buzz or not, as Stephan, Kevin, Joel and maybe others said. However, I agree with Joel, Martin, and others that buzz and community would undeniably be helpful. I can even conceive of it being absolutely essential: sadly, trusting on merit alone is a scary and probably naive road. I truly wish we could get the word out about Zope 3. The Zope development companies (such as ZC) are probably only a limited resource: they are making money on Zope, sometimes without their clients knowing or caring that Zope is the tool behind the software. The companies are already often contributing significantly to the development of Zope 3 and/or of an open- or mixed-source platform, and simply don't have too many other further resources to give. I appreciated what Martin said: [...] Note that I'm not saying that the same people who produce the code (and great code it is, which is why I care so much about this) should be doing this. In fact, the Plone experience tells us they probably shouldn't. But *someone* ought to[...] The Zope Foundation, which is probably coming pretty darn soon, might help catalyze contributors a bit. It will own the zope3.org domain, the zope.org domain, and probably lots more, and all of the software. But before or after the foundation, I think small steps are more likely to succeed than grand plans. Someone writing an impressive brochure-ware site about Zope 3 is going to be easier and more impressive than trying to get folks to agree on a grand Zope 3 software site. Someone assembling some of the word-smithing in this thread might even generate a simple impressive advocacy *page* that could be linked to from the front of zope.org. I thought Joel's post had some ring to it, for instance. Whether or not we have a Zope 3: Rebel Angel rename :-), it would be great to see Joel or Martin or someone step up to put some advocacy out there. If I can help with trying to figure out who to ask for what, let me know. Again, ZC is *giving the zope.org site away to the new Zope Foundation*: it will be up to community members and corporate members together to make the site the compelling sales pitch and welcoming documentation that it could be. Just make *small* steps. :-) Gary ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Still trying to figure out PAU
On Feb 2, 2006, at 4:41 PM, Florian Lindner wrote: Hello, I'm still desperately trying to figure out the PluggableAuthentication. Since no one has replied, I'll try my 30-second remediation technique again. ;-) That means I didn't really follow exactly what you are doing, and I'm just trying for low-hanging fruit to help you. :-) I perform the following steps: 1) Create an instance of my folderish, possible site (named A), content object. 2) I create a site in it. 3) I add a PAU in the default software space 4) I add a SessionCredentialsPlugin and a PrincipalFolder as plugins. 5) I create a internal principal with Title = zope.Manager (tried also other ones). name = abc 6) In the SessionCredentialsPlugin I leave to loginForm.html. I've a loginForm.html view in my A-object) 7) I register all components (SessionCreadentiasPlugin, PrincipalFolder and PAU) So that means that http://127.0.0.1:8080/++etc++site/default/test.pau/ @@configure.html (or similar) has one credentials plugin in the right column (Session Credentials (a utility)) and one authenticator plugin in the right column (PrincipalFolder (a utility) or something like that). Right? If not, make it so. :-) If that doesn't work, try making the right column of the Credentials Plugins field be No Challenge if Authenticated (a utility) first and then Session Credentials (a utility) second. That's probably what you want anyway. Gary ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:50:30 -0800, Joel Moxley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've followed the Guido blogs/discussion loosely. As a relative newcomer, this is my first real experience with the Python community's confusion of Zope2 and Zope3. I've seen on the list that people have been discussing renaming and other remedies to this problem. In my opinion, I think a little branding could go a long way. Instead of renaming the entire project, call it Zope3 Zebra or Zope3 Panther (clearly these are horrible, but you can see where I am going with this). Then create a dedicated website www.zope3zebra.org that basically links the Zope 3 book, tutorials, example code, and existing projects like SchoolTool on the front page. Clearly brand it as a industrial-strength, pythonic web framework and a complete rewrite from Zope2. Provide a link to all Python web frameworks and explain the advantages of industrial-strength, non-hackish code for people who want to do it right the first time. This front page will provide a jumping off point for zope3 devs and users. Does this make sense? It's only a small rebrand (and the Zope3 stays intact) and an assembly of components that already exist. Basically, you can use this occasion as a coming out party... Zope3 is here, and we're for real. Best idea I have seen on the Zope 3 lists in ages. (don't let the curmudgeons beat you down - keep'em coming :) -- _ Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com _ Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: Re: Please Guido, pick me, pick me!
Ron Bickers wrote: Today, I see the mess that a Zope 2 site can turn in to, so I started looking at Zope 3 again. The release announcements say it's ready for production use, but the website has no promotion of it whatsoever. You have to dig several levels deep to see any mention that it's not just a new version of Zope. The downloads page makes it look like nothing more than an upgrade and the one Zope 3 link under Developers says the wiki is for Zope 3 development itself, not for those that want to use it. I do have Richter's book (thank you, Stephan) and Philipp's book is on its way, but I'm having trouble finding any material online that isn't a hodge-podge of years old development notes. To continue your rant, I think most people expect production-ready software to have a large support network around it. There's certainly commercial support for Zope 3, but that doesn't count, because the claim that Zope 3 is production-ready is made in reference to only the open source software, not commercial add-ons. So I think it's misleading to call Zope 3 production-ready until we organize better. I can't help but think the first step to making Zope 3 truly production-ready is to put together a pretty web site about Zope 3. It shouldn't make many references to Zope 2. It should have a Zero to Zope 3 in Ten Minutes article. It should have a link to online API docs. Its primary focus should be on attracting new people. Whoever designs such a site needs good design skills and thick skin. It can't be designed by committee, but the designer should solicit feedback. (Now, I don't have a lot of design skill, but I have noticed that every revision of zope.org has chosen most of its colors from a palette of black, white, and blue. My web log suffers the same malady! I've also noticed recently that most attractive web sites choose two fairly saturated colors and balance and vary them.) There must be a good reason for this. I know they didn't spend all this time building a great open source product for members-only. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps they don't want to promote it while Zope 2 product compatibility isn't there yet. With so many nice Zope 2 products around, I can see new users getting frustrated that none of them work in Zope 3. Once some major Zope 2 products work in Zope 3, maybe things will change. It's probably in ZC's best interest to wait for Zope 2 compatibility before promoting Zope 3 heavily, since ZC has a lot of Zope 2 customers. But it's in the Zope community's best interest to promote Zope 3 right now, while the competition is heating up. Shane ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
