--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Zen practice does not have things that are allowed or disallowed.  

Bill,

I think this is a word-game. What does it mean if something is 'not 
allowed'?

You write: "There are things, however, that people throughout the 
ages have found helpful and things that they have found are not 
helpful."

Let's compare this with someone following a specific diet to loose 
weight. This diet says he should not eat two cakes in the morning. 
One can say he is not allowed to eat two cakes in the morning. But, 
of course, one can also say he is allowed but that would not be 
helpful. For me it means the same. 

Compared to Zen, one can say everything is allowed (or, nothing is 
disallowed) but some things are not helpful and should therefore be 
avoided in Zen. What is the difference? One might eat cakes when on 
a diet but it is not helpful. So it is actually 'not allowed', is it?

In fact, you can say everything is allowed in life (we are all 
free); it is allowed to neglect a red traffic light but you have to 
pay a fine if caught. It is allowed to murder but you probably have 
to cope with some psychological problems, you have to get in jail if 
caught, and so on.

But that is not the way I want to go. I say it is not allowed to 
neglect a red traffic light. It is also not allowed to eat to much 
cake when on a diet (because it is not 'helpful'). And thus, some 
things are not allowed in Zen.

Thanks BTW for whispering in my ear, you are very gentle.

Eugene

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, May 06 Eugene Wrote:
> 
> >Bill, of course you are right. That's why I originally 
quoted 'allowed 
> >in Zen'. Still thanks for waking me up - but next time just call 
my 
> >name or poke me gently ;-)
> 
> Eugene, I Whisper In Your Ear:
> 
> Your words 'allowed in Zen' was to what I was referring.
> 
> Zen practice does not have things that are allowed or disallowed.  
There are
> no rules, but that doesn't mean that just whatever you want to do 
is zen
> practice.  There are no rules in the sense that there are not 
specific sets
> of things that may be done and that may not be done.  Telling the 
truth is
> considered helpful, but lying is not forbidden - in fact in some
> circumstances it is very proper.  There are things, however, that 
people
> throughout the ages have found helpful and things that they have 
found are
> not helpful.
> 
> Becoming distracted by trying to do or thinking about too many 
things at
> once is one of the things that have been found to be unhelpful.  
It's
> certainly not forbidden and might not even apply to your zen 
practice -
> although I'd be very, very surprised if it didn't apply since it 
is such a
> fundamental teaching.
> 
> (This 'no rules' thing is not the same for Buddhism.  I don't 
consider zen
> to be wholly contained within the province of Buddhism so can 
claim to
> practice zen but not be a Buddhist.  Jarvis or Dave do see zen and 
Buddhism
> as inseparable, I believe, and can help you understand more of 
that from
> their Buddhist perspective.  They both have a lot of good 
information on
> this.) 
> 
> ...Bill!
>






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