Siska, In a previous post you wrote:
[Siska] I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. You are correct that you shouldn't form an attachment to either your own experience or intellectual knowledge - but it is important to note that the experience, even its memory, is your experience; whereas whatever you read or are taught is at best the 2nd- or 3rd-hand account of someone else's experience, and at worst the inaccurate or fictional account of someone else's experience. I'd advise you to value your own experience more than the account of someone else's. ...Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maria Lopez Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 5:43 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. Mayka: Have you been in many other zen groups?, By your statement it sounds as if you were. As far as my experience concerns on this website haven't seen yet any of those kind of practitioners looking down people you give description about but I have seen in more quantities of the other ones I previously mentioned.. . Siska: Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. Mayka: What do you mean when you say that you don't distinguish the body and the mind in the awareness?. Siska: I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. Mayka: Yes, body and mind are not separated. What happens to the body also happens in the mind. What happens in the mind also happens in the body. Siska: So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. Mayka: I see this zen forum in the same way as you do and that is : To share, discuss, exchanging different points of view, so that we all get nourishment from each others. --- On Fri, 29/10/10, Siska <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Siska <siska_...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, 29 October, 2010, 7:24 Hi Mayka, > For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the > number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites > pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct > experience about the subject. I have also come across people who sit and then start to look down on people who only read (or seems so). This is perhaps the other extreme to those who are attached to texts and intellectual knowledge. The direct experience itself is a direct experience only at the time one experiences it. Afterwards, it is just memory of what it was, which can be differently perceived by different people who experience it, or even same person at different time. So, it is not wise to attach to this so-called direct experience either, in my opinion. > I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long > were you involved in that?. I started seven years ago. We are not Krishnamurti's followers though. It happens that the Buddhist vipassana meditation is being practised with his approach. It's kind of mixed up. I don't really read his books either. The retreats are conducted in a Buddhist monasteries, but there is a good mix of people from various religions there, mostly Catholics and Moslems. Especially in the beginning, I found it really interesting that similar experience are being described differently due to this different backgrounds. >"To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus >surroundings". which is what sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base >myself practise. In addition. When I'm very full of everything all what I do >it's simply to sit down and breathe. Yes, sometimes what is left is just the breathing. Personally, I don't distinguish body and mind in the awareness. I noticed that whenever something occurs in my mind, it affects my body accordingly and vice versa. So, these two are kind of one. I can only speak for myself though. Perhaps it doesn't work that way for others, I don't know, I don't get to share and discuss with others so much. > Still think that if one can find the appropriate Teacher, Guide or Someone > experienced in the practise it will benefit and shorten the fatigue, going in > circles and time. There are many things about us that we can't face by > oneselves alone. And a Teacher is great for that purpose. There is also the > problem of the ego which can be at time extremely difficult to be detected if > one doesn't have much experience in the practise. A zen teacher doesn't do > the job for one. A zen teacher only gives instructions for one start to > uncover all the layers there.... Agree, a teacher would be nice to have. From where I stand, it is still not a "must have", but then again, I'm open to the difference, if perhaps this is the way it is in Zen. > Nice talking to you Feeling's mutual :-) siska --- On Thu, 28/10/10, Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> wrote: From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 21:12 Siska: Reading books is educative. Nothing wrong about reading. A different matter is how a reading is interpreted, or taking the words from that book as a kind of ultimate truth and things like that. For instance a frequent experience I keep coming across in Internet is the number of people who do zen readings and afterwards they go to websites pretending that they know a lot about zen without actually having any direct experience about the subject. I have witnessed at times that when a real practitioner has call the attention of that kind of people with the only intention of helping them, guiding them to the real thing, these sort of no real practitioners usually get upset and react as very offended. So the reading in this case was useless as it added more new notions into that person mind. Everything in life is there available to all of us, it depends upon us how do we use it. That is our choice. I hear about Krishnamurti but never met any of his followers before. How long were you involved in that?. What was your meditative experience under the subject you mention : "The meditation instruction is only to be aware of what is at each moment"?. This sound alike but a little bit more complete as: "To be aware about all what is going on in the body and the mind plus surroundings". which is what sometimes in theory/ Sometimes in action I base myself practise. In addition. When I'm very full of everything all what I do it's simply to sit down and breathe. Still think that if one can find the appropriate Teacher, Guide or Someone experienced in the practise it will benefit and shorten the fatigue, going in circles and time. There are many things about us that we can't face by oneselves alone. And a Teacher is great for that purpose. There is also the problem of the ego which can be at time extremely difficult to be detected if one doesn't have much experience in the practise. A zen teacher doesn't do the job for one. A zen teacher only gives instructions for one start to uncover all the layers there.... Nice talking to you Mayka -- On Thu, 28/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, 28 October, 2010, 5:49 Mayka, What you said below made me realised that I've brushed aside anything that has got to do with rituals and traditions while I'm reading below two books. Perhaps not a wise thing to do? I first came to know meditation through the Mahasi tradition. Later I attended retreats that are based on Buddhist vipassana meditation with J.Krishnamurti's approach (that's how they describe the approach). There are controversies on this approach, but I find it quite suitable for me. The meditation instruction is only to be aware of what is at each moment, which can be anything, but I find it mostly to be merely thoughts (perhaps what this forum refers to as "illusions"). When I learned that in Zen, the advice is also to just sit. This sounds very similar to me. This Vipassana approach, as it is with Krishnamurti, 'refuses' teacher-student relationship so that we don't attach to anything that any teacher says or tells us. Instead, we are to see with ourselves. As the book says, Zen mind is a beginner's mind. Anything pre-conceived hinders our practice. I just realised I'm that much conditioned to this that I thought there shouldn't be any teacher needed in Zen either :-) thanks for this discussions! > If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a > Teacher won't let you to waste it. Or maybe I'd look for one who'd tell me to waste it ;-) siska ________________________________________ From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:01:38 +0100 (BST) To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Siska: I don't know if having a Teacher is compulsory but I can tell you that is certainly strongly adviced by experienced zen practitioners. The writers of the books you mentioned in previous posting both were instructed by Teachers. There is also the alternative of sitting down with a group of people and having some support into your practice. Do you do a sitting down? If you like to waste your time then no bother to look for a Teacher because a Teacher won't let you to waste it. Mayka --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 16:20 Hi Mayka, Thanks! Is it compulsory to train with a teacher? It's hard to find any here. As for now, I can't find any better way to waste my time than being here. After all, what do I do with it if not to waste? ;-) siska ________________________________________ From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:04:35 +0100 (BST) To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question Welcome to the zen forum Siska. Lay back and enjoy the ride. Unluckily you can find the answer of your questioning in a Internet forum. Sit down and shut up is advisable towards having a glimpse to the direct experience of Buddha nature. Google and Ed are Internet leaflets of commercial zen information but not the place itself. Searching for a reliable Teacher, with a direct experience of what he may be teaching about (Walking the talk), and working with him instructions is the wises action you could do if you are honestly interested in zen. Differently here in the forum you'll be having a great entertainment but not much of real zen. In a few words, you are wasting your time. But enjoy the ride and tides with us anyway! Hope this helps a little bit. Mayka --- On Wed, 27/10/10, siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010, 2:05 Hello Ed, Thanks for the welcome :) I am not familiar with the terms being used here, especially when you all are discussing about "buddha nature", "zen", "the Law" and all that. The way I understand it from this forum, there are no fix definitions for the terms anyway and I somehow feel that is the way it should be. I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind and I read Sit Down and Shut Up (or was it Shut up and Sit Down?) and I quite like both. Looking forward to learning more from this forum. Wow, seventeen trillion events...... siska ________________________________________ From: "ED" <seacrofter...@yahoo.com> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:44:50 -0000 To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question siska, Welcome to the Zen Forum. If you like what you have just seen, you must be (at least partially) enlightened. The Buddha might say: "Seventeen trillion events transpired in the course of that interchange." I look forward to your joining in the conversations. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote: Hi All, I'm new to this list and I'm new to Zen. I think I like this list. siska Mayka, I'm sorry that you feel that way. --ED --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez <flordel...@...> wrote: > > ALL WHAT I MEAN IS THAT YOU HAVE BORED ME TO DEATH. LET ME ALONE!!!! GET > LOST. DO YOUÂ GET IT NOW????...GOSH!!! __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5574 (20101029) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5574 (20101029) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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