Hi, Anthony

"You say: "  The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write." Yes, you are 
right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was 
illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, 
but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox."

Moghul emperor Akbhar is said that he could not read not write (he seems that 
was dislexic). Nevertheless, he had an extremely good memoire, was extremely 
inteligent...and founded his own religion (illahi; his coins could be read 
Allah is great...or Akbhar is God). For what I read, only two adherents: 
himself and a counsellor....

Could not be that sixth patriarch (may I ask, ignorant of me, of which line? I 
am used to the line of Kargyuptas. Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa. No much 
more....), just be dislexic?. Not so uncommon

All blessings have its hinderings.

With best wishes

Lluís

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anthony Wu 
  To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices


    
        JMJM,

        You say: " Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before 
Samadhi『三摩地』"。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after 
samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you 
had a unique experience.

        You say: "  The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write." Yes, you 
are right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was 
illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, 
but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox.

        You say: " Heart is the center of our true "spiritual being". 『靈性』。" 
This word is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the 
right word.

        You say: " 覺妙精明合十頂禮
        禪宗第八十六代總教授師。
         
        I bow back to you.

        Anthony




        --- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com> 
wrote:


          From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
          Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
          To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM


            
          Hi Anthony,

          1.  Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is 
a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting.  
No different from describing the taste of Apple.
          2.  Don't know what you were trying to say.
          3.  Heart is everything you were talking about.  It is the 
integration of our mind and our physical being.  Also mind is the collection of 
every cell in our body.  Heart is our complete being.  Heart is the center of 
our true "spiritual being". 『靈性』。  Please do not analyze, categorize, think in 
terms of words.  Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful.

          All words are just descriptions of various states of being.  Studying 
these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice.  These two domains do not 
intersect.  Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another.

          達摩祖師於其血脈論中說:「見性為禪,若不見性,即非禪 也。」又說:「性及是心,心即是佛,佛即是道,道即是禪。」

          覺妙精明合十頂禮
          禪宗第八十六代總教授師。

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

          On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
              
                  JMJM,

                  Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with 
the following:

                  Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you 
think it the other way around.

                  Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable 
to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem 
was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a 
different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help 
of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra.

                  The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it 
is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the 
expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers 
where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)?

                  Anthony

                  --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
<chan.j...@gmail.com> wrote:


                    From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
                    Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
                    To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM


                      
                    Hi All,

                    The three fundamental Buddhist practices is "Discipline, 
Meditation, Wisdom".  In Pali, they are "sila, samadhi, panna", or translated 
into "morality, stillness, wisdom." Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness 
are the same. Morality and discipline are the same.  Some of you may disagree 
about this "same".  They are the "same" in practice.  They are different only 
in our heads.

                    As you know, Chan is not taught through words.  Chan is 
about practice.  Let me explain.

                    My Teacher calls the first practice "purification".  When 
our body and mind become pure, we automatically disciplined and moral.  I call 
the first practice "detox".  Detox from all our habits - habitual concepts, 
habitual actions, habitual food, habitual life style.  It is like a reboot.

                    When we reach this clean state of being, then we reach 
samadhi, jhana, stillness or just Ding, as we call it in our school.  It is a 
state of stillness, yet spacious, expansive, clear, thoughtless......

                    Maintaining in this state, enables us to be in sync with 
the energy and wisdom of the universe.

                    Kensho is when our heart outshines our mind.  It is also a 
description of state.  Usually it means a state of clear mind or stillness 
before we reach samadhi.  

                    Shigantaza however is the same practice (from the 
discipline, through sitting to clear mind to kensho).

                    In short, if we can detach ourselves from the descriptions 
from these states and simply Just Sit without thoughts and cultivate our chi. 
We can reach all these states.

                    In our school, we have a fourth state, our Teacher calls 
it, liberation.  It means liberation of our heart after we quiet or clear our 
mind.  

                    There is really no need to comprehend, just practice.  The 
Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write.

                    :-) 

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

                    On 11/22/2010 6:47 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: 
                        
                      ED,

                      My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so 
most of the terms of which I am familiar are Japanese.

                      These are my understanding of some of the terms we've 
been using:

                      Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

                      Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more 
long-lasting and persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.

                      Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this 
state 'Just THIS!'. Clear Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. 
Wikipedia defines shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen 
introduced by Rujing and associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, 
but which also is "the base of all Zen disciplines." According to Dōgen Zenji, 
shikantaza i.e. resting in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of 
thoughts, directed to no object, and attached to no particular content—is the 
highest or purest form of zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas 
of the past. 

                      Samadhi: I am familiar with this term only from reading. 
It always seemed to me to be the same as shikantaza. Wikipedia defines samadhi 
as: "...a non-dualistic state of consciousness in which the consciousness of 
the experiencing subject becomes one with the experienced object, and in which 
the mind becomes still, one-pointed or concentrated though the person remains 
conscious. In Buddhism, it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes 
very still but does not merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to 
observe and gain insight into the changing flow of experience."

                      The Thai's use the term 'samadhi' to refer to Theravada 
Buddhist meditation. They have a different word 'glai-glia' to refer to other 
types of mediation.

                      >From my experience Clear Mind/shikantaza (samadhi?) and 
kensho/satori are virtually the same. The only difference is that kensho/satori 
denotes the point that you become AWARE of Clear Mind (samadhi?). So if you 
have to put them in some kind of time sequence, first there is Clear Mind 
without awareness, then Kensho/Satori which is the realization/awareness of 
Clear Mind, and then Clear Mind continues with awareness.

                      Koans, in my experience, are used as a tool to stop the 
rational, discriminating mind's activities. It is only in this state than 
kensho/satori can occur. There are other ways to stop the discriminating mind 
such as just sitting (zazen). Eventually you will reach the state of shikantaza 
(samadhi?) in which a pure awareness can arise. This I call Buddha Mind/Buddha 
Nature. 

                      All of the above occurs IN THE ABSENCE of 
thinking/rationality/cognition. Part of zen practice AFTER kensho is to 
re-integrate thinking/rationality/cognition WITHOUT forming attachments to the 
concepts generated by thinking.

                      Having said all this I have to add the following caveat 
which is a paraphrase of Genjo's caveat on the 5 subdivisions of koans: 'any 
number of subdivisions and terms describing zen practice and awareness states 
could be devised, and all are ultimately meaningless. Zen is everyday life. Zen 
is nothing special. Zen is "Only Don't Know!". Zen is Just THIS!'

                      This is my experience.

                      ...Bill!


                 

       



  

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