Hi Anthony,

1. Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting. No different from describing the taste of Apple.
2.  Don't know what you were trying to say.
3. Heart is everything you were talking about. It is the integration of our mind and our physical being. Also mind is the collection of every cell in our body. Heart is our complete being. Heart is the center of our true "spiritual being". 『靈性』。 Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words. Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful.

All words are just descriptions of various states of being. Studying these words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice. These two domains do not intersect. Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another.

達摩祖師於其血脈論中說:「見性為禪,若不見性,即非禪 也。」又說:「性及 是心,心即是佛,佛即是道,道即是禪。」


Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can

On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following: Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other way around. Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra. The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)?

--- On *Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /<chan.j...@gmail.com>/* wrote:

    From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
    Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
    To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM

    Hi All,

    The three fundamental Buddhist practices is "Discipline,
    Meditation, Wisdom".  In Pali, they are "sila, samadhi, panna", or
    translated into "morality, stillness, wisdom." Word wise, jhana
    and samadhi and stillness are the same. Morality and discipline
    are the same.  Some of you may disagree about this "same".  They
    are the "same" in practice.  They are different only in our heads.

    As you know, Chan is not taught through words.  Chan is about
    practice.  Let me explain.

    My Teacher calls the first practice "purification".  When our body
    and mind become pure, we automatically disciplined and moral.  I
    call the first practice "detox".  Detox from all our habits -
    habitual concepts, habitual actions, habitual food, habitual life
    style.  It is like a reboot.

    When we reach this clean state of being, then we reach samadhi,
    jhana, stillness or just Ding, as we call it in our school.  It is
    a state of stillness, yet spacious, expansive, clear,

    Maintaining in this state, enables us to be in sync with the
    energy and wisdom of the universe.

    Kensho is when our heart outshines our mind.  It is also a
    description of state.  Usually it means a state of clear mind or
    stillness before we reach samadhi.

    Shigantaza however is the same practice (from the discipline,
    through sitting to clear mind to kensho).

    In short, if we can detach ourselves from the descriptions from
    these states and simply Just Sit without thoughts and cultivate
    our chi. We can reach all these states.

    In our school, we have a fourth state, our Teacher calls it,
    liberation.  It means liberation of our heart after we quiet or
    clear our mind.

    There is really no need to comprehend, just practice.  The Sixth
    Patriarch did not even read or write.


    Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
    http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com  <http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/>
    http://www.heartchan.org  <http://www.heartchan.org/>

    On 11/22/2010 6:47 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org

    My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of
    the terms of which I am familiar are Japanese.

    These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

    Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

    Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more
    long-lasting and persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.

    Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just
    THIS!'. Clear Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature.
    Wikipedia defines shikantaza as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese
    term for zazen introduced by Rujing and associated most with the
    Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the base of all
    Zen disciplines." According to Dōgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e.
    resting in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of
    thoughts, directed to no object, and attached to no particular
    content—is the highest or purest form of zazen, zazen as it was
    practiced by all the buddhas of the past.

    Samadhi: I am familiar with this term only from reading. It
    always seemed to me to be the same as shikantaza. Wikipedia
    defines samadhi as: "...a non-dualistic state of consciousness in
    which the consciousness of the experiencing subject becomes one
    with the experienced object, and in which the mind becomes still,
    one-pointed or concentrated though the person remains conscious.
    In Buddhism, it can also refer to an abiding in which mind
    becomes very still but does not merge with the object of
    attention, and is thus able to observe and gain insight into the
    changing flow of experience."

    The Thai's use the term 'samadhi' to refer to Theravada Buddhist
    meditation. They have a different word 'glai-glia' to refer to
    other types of mediation.

    >From my experience Clear Mind/shikantaza (samadhi?) and
    kensho/satori are virtually the same. The only difference is that
    kensho/satori denotes the point that you become AWARE of Clear
    Mind (samadhi?). So if you have to put them in some kind of time
    sequence, first there is Clear Mind without awareness, then
    Kensho/Satori which is the realization/awareness of Clear Mind,
    and then Clear Mind continues with awareness.

    Koans, in my experience, are used as a tool to stop the rational,
    discriminating mind's activities. It is only in this state than
    kensho/satori can occur. There are other ways to stop the
    discriminating mind such as just sitting (zazen). Eventually you
    will reach the state of shikantaza (samadhi?) in which a pure
    awareness can arise. This I call Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature.

    All of the above occurs IN THE ABSENCE of
    thinking/rationality/cognition. Part of zen practice AFTER kensho
    is to re-integrate thinking/rationality/cognition WITHOUT forming
    attachments to the concepts generated by thinking.

    Having said all this I have to add the following caveat which is
    a paraphrase of Genjo's caveat on the 5 subdivisions of koans:
    'any number of subdivisions and terms describing zen practice and
    awareness states could be devised, and all are ultimately
    meaningless. Zen is everyday life. Zen is nothing special. Zen is
    "Only Don't Know!". Zen is Just THIS!'

    This is my experience.


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